Transcript

trans. >> Everybody, welcome to this children's committee. It seems like we haven't had one for a long time. I think it was April, the last one. We were waylaid in between. But welcome, everyone. I'm Councillor Sheila Boswell and I'm the chair of the children's committee. We have some formalities that we have to go through in all these committees, so I'm going to run through that and then we will get to the first item on the agenda. So members of the committee, I will now call your names in alphabetical order. Councillor Burchill.

Good evening. >> Councillor Corner. Good evening. >> Councillor Crivelli. Good evening. >> Councillor Davies. Good evening. >> Councillor Lee. Good evening. >> Councillor Paul and welcome. Thanks. Good evening. >> Councillor Osbourne. Hello, everybody. >> And Councillor Owens. Good evening. >> This committee also has a number of co-optive members, as we know. So I'm also welcoming Mr Anthony Langdon, who is the parent governor representative, Mrs Ari Wilsonholm from the Southwark Diocese Board of Education, Church of England, and Ms Navila Haroon. Welcome all. And I would also like to welcome the cabinet member for children, Councillor Kate Stock. Good evening, everybody. Good to be here and welcome to our guests as well. We've had apologies for absence from Mrs Angela Cox. And Councillor Apps may be joining us online. She's unwell. I don't have apologies from her at the moment. There are many officers present and they will introduce themselves when they address the committee. So it is my absolute pleasure to welcome you all to this committee this evening and filled with immense joy and optimism, especially as we welcome at this time of year our children back to school for another year of learning and growth. The time of year is always special as it marks the beginning of new adventures, friendships, and opportunities for all our children and young people in the academic year ahead. I am excited to have attended last week the Council's second -- the opening of the Council's second family hub in Roehampton, an area of much need. It's part of the Council's continued commitment to deliver more accessible and integrated services to all our residents. And this short start inspired holistic wrap around approach will support local people to seek help and advice quicker and earlier, very strong on prevention, enabling us to help more families with issues they are facing. And we look forward to hearing more about this new hub at a later committee. We also acknowledge National Kinship Week, which it is this week, very important, and Black History Month. So National Kinship Week is a time to honor and recognize the incredible contributions of kinship carers. I sit on the fostering panel and I know what amazing work they do here in Wandsworth. They are unsung heroes who step in to provide love, accountability, and support to our children when they need it most. And their commitment is truly inspiring and we are grateful to them all. Black History Month is another important occasion that we are proud to celebrate. It's time to reflect on the rich history, culture, and achievements of black individuals and communities. By acknowledging and learning from the past, we can build on a more inclusive and equitable future for us all and take this opportunity to educate ourselves, celebrate diversity, and continue to strive for justice and equality. And tonight, as we discuss the reports in front of us, I think it's important to remember that the strength lies in our shared commitment to the well-being of all our children and together we can create an environment where every child feels value supported and empowered to reach their full potential. And that is very much the working of this committee. Thank you. So we can now go to agenda items. Declarations of interest. Are there any declarations either pecuniary, registrable, or non-registrable? No. Thank you. Co-opted member -- ah. As a member of the Board of Education, I've obviously got some sort of interest in part five about the construction of the primary school. Thank you. Any more? No. Co-opted members on voting, I remind you that you may vote on the paper this evening because it is an education function, so you may vote on that. And that is actually the only paper for decision this evening. The minutes of the previous meeting, are they agreed? Yes. Thank you. So we can go to our first paper, which is the Youth Council and the Youth Mayor, paper number 24-262. And I'm very happy -- we are very happy to welcome Faber, our Deputy Youth Mayor, and members from our Youth Council that we have here, Yusef, Claudia, and Eloise. And our Youth Mayor, Millie Quinn, actually, she couldn't be here tonight, but she has recorded a video which will be shown later. I think at this point I'd like to hand over to Faber to tell us about the work of the Council. Thank you. I'm pleased to present our report on the role of the Youth Mayor within our community. The role serves as an amazing opportunity for young people to greatly enhance youth engagement and representation within the senior operations within the Council. The Youth Mayor position serves as a vital link between young people and the Council, fostering a great sense of civic responsibility among young people in the local community, providing a platform to voice our concerns and contributing to strategies benefiting young people and the wider community. The role of the Youth Mayor enables young people to have their voice heard by senior leaders, access formal professional environments, building self-esteem and confidence, supporting young people and the local community. Our Youth Council members also get to attend amazing events and be involved in projects that benefit young people and their local community. We feel so personally connected to this project and we hope that by the end of this report you will also share the same enthusiasm with us. Thank you. Faber, thank you. Thank you so much for that report and the way that you presented it is very, very impactful. I think we're going to introduce Millie's video and I'm going to hand over to Hollis Blake now who's going to introduce it. Hollis, good evening. Hi, good evening everyone. I'm Hollis Blake. I'm the Service Manager for the Youth and Community Partnership Engagement Team. I have a video which has been completed and presented by Millie Quinn who is our Youth Mayor. We're ready to play the video. Apologies everybody, tech letting us down there. Such a shame as Millie had done a wonderful video. We may be able to get it back later but we need to carry on. Hollis. Point of order. Might we be able to get it put on YouTube or sent around via email to committee members? Yes, if we can't get it up tonight. Absolutely, thank you for that suggestion Councillor Corner. Hollis, I don't know whether you would like to do an introduction or take some questions or Faber might like to as well. We could use our time that way. Yes, we could certainly do that, Chair. First off I would like to say a big thank you to Faber and Millie. It's unfortunate we haven't seen Millie's videos of yet but she gives us a good glimpse and Faber has given us a glimpse into the role of a Youth Mayor and Deputy Youth Mayor and also on the workings of the Youth Council as well. Our young people are really the heart and soul of the Youth Council and the Youth Mayor project as well. They're the ones leading and driving the changes within the Youth Council. They have played a big part in the development of the Youth Council this year and they've played a part in increasing the membership of the Youth Council by 42% this year. They have used their networks to promote, to encourage and amplify the voice of young people across the borough and they have highlighted a number of issues that they have had an input into this year, including the violence against women and girls, the cost of living, education and inclusion and also an input into the approach to play within the borough. I'm really grateful that we've got Claudia, Eloise, Faber and Youssef here and also really grateful that we've got the project manager for the Youth Council and Youth Mayor team and that is Kezia Gordon. And I'm really grateful that you've invited us here and invited young people here so they have this opportunity to speak directly to people who have power and the key decision makers within the local authority as well. So we will open up to questions and invite questions and the Youth Council members and the Deputy Mayor and the two officers will answer your questions. Thank you very much Hollis. Yep, Councillor David. Thank you so much for coming here. I'm interested in, I mean you represent the voices of all children and young people across the borough and thank you for that. What kind of things can you do to make sure that you are reflecting the issues and the concerns of all children and young people? So girls, boys, young children, different groupings of them as well. I'll open that up to the members of the Youth Council, are you okay? Thank you for the question. Well, first thing I wanted to say is that we've used the contacts that we have within our school to promote and canvas opportunities for young people. An example that we have done earlier this year was a financial literacy event that was organised by young people and had a pretty good turnout. Other ways by using social media and other forms of communicating with young people in order to get their opinion and input. And also future plans of ours to further increase engagement would be to take the Youth Council around the borough and the community to actually enact some outreach and so, for example, visiting youth clubs and communities such as the DeVos Club which was an event we attended the other week which was really good. Councillor Coroner. Thank you, Chair, and thanks again to all Youth Council members for being here today. I just wondered if you could provide for the committee an overview of how you got involved in the Youth Council, how you heard about it, how you came to be appointed or elected to it, what you had to do to get there and what advice you would give to your fellow young people across the borough about how to get involved and play such a positive impact in the lives of young people in the borough. Thanks for the question. Personally, I heard about the Youth Council through a friend of mine joining her local borough's Youth Council and I thought I would like to join my local boroughs as well. I strongly advise it to a lot of young people because I've joined quite late so I would really encourage it to younger people to join as well because it's really something, it's very informative, it's very interesting and you get to meet people very like-minded like yourself too among the Youth Council. Personally, I think I've learned a lot from the people around me, I've learned a lot about everyone's different opinions, everyone's different backgrounds and I think I would highly recommend it to the other people like myself to join. Thank you. Councillor Burchell, I think I saw and then Councillor Crivelli. Yes, thank you so much for coming to see us today and telling us about what you're doing. I'm interested, Faber has told us that she found out about it through a friend and it's interesting to know how you're finding out about it and how you are promoting it to other people and this is probably a question to the officers. Are you going to all schools and sports clubs, Girl Guides, Scouts, are you going to all young people? Hello, hi. Thank you for the question, in terms of how young people would apply, they would contact me directly and we would have a conversation about their application and why they'd like to join and they'd come along, so in terms of joining it's open to everyone. We do need to increase our reach in schools, definitely and that's something that we're working on. At the moment our main reach is social media and word of mouth and at the moment we've got 31 members so it's quite a large increase over a short space of time. So even though we haven't gone out full force in terms of social media and all of the schools at the moment, we are still at full capacity in terms of membership. So as Faber mentioned in terms of recruiting younger members, which is something we definitely want, we want a fair representation of, in terms of the schools in the borough as well. So these are all things that we are planning to do and increase the work on. Thank you very much. Councillor Crivelli, I think you were... Hi, yes, we've also started creating a video to promote the Youth Council. We've had different points where we've been shooting the videos, specifically like tuting and club injunction to where most people come from the Youth Council. Apologies. Does anyone else want to contribute from the Youth Council on that before I go to Councillor Crivelli? No? Councillor Crivelli, I think you were next. Thanks. You've already touched upon this a bit. I mean, Faber sort of answered this a bit but I just wanted to develop it a little bit. Claudia talked about increased engagement. I mean, imagine I was a young person in Wandsworth and I know that takes a bit of a stretch of imagination, but imagine I was, okay? How would you sell the Youth Council to me? What are the positive things that you would say, listen, you've got to get involved in this because? I'd say primarily, I mean, a big selling point people like to go to is the snacks, but beyond that for me, I find a personal selling point to be the diversity of both background and opinion and perspective that I find really refreshing about the Youth Council. You really feel a great sense of community. As a member of the Council who doesn't go to school in the borough but rather lives here, I think it's a great way of connecting with the community that I otherwise wouldn't have the chance to. I think those are the main selling points and also as Faber said, it's great for learning about politics, public policy and kind of hearing the opinions of people around you on those same subjects, so yeah. Councillor Osborne. Oh, did you want to come? I just wanted to also say that I think young people naturally have an interest in politics, especially in the current political climate and I feel like with the Youth Council, young people are really given the opportunity to get involved in local politics. I think Councillor Osborne was next and then Councillor Corner and then Councillor Owens. Thank you for the presentation and everything and can I ask Faber and the rest of the team, looking at this from the point of view of Wandsworth Council, for the rest of the year and indeed for that matter beyond, what do you think we should make a priority of that would be of use and helpful for the young people in the Youth Council and do feel free to put a little bit of pressure on us here when you think about what our priorities ought to be. I think personally increasing dialogue between the Youth Council and the main council would be an excellent idea because while we are affiliated with the main council, we actually have very little connection and involvement and dialogue with the main council so it feels somewhat separated when we are on the same kind of team working towards the same goals so I think something we would appreciate seeing is slightly more involvement and dialogue between the two. Yes, I also think maybe trust as well, to trust us so that we truly understand what the youth actually want. I mean we are young and also the fact that we chose to come to the Youth Council to kind of relate the message of what the youth in Wandsworth want. I do apologise to the Youth Council to keep cutting. This is so new for us and it's so wonderful to have you here. It's exactly the sort of thing that we should have in this duffy old town hall but I'm sorry if I keep not going to, it's a new format. So now Councillor Corner and then Councillor Paul with your question. Thank you and just building on Councillor Osborne's question there. On page six of the report back from the meeting we've got the youth mayor's priorities and the deputy youth mayor's priorities so it's great to read them and see that they are very similar or the same as a lot of topics we discussed around this table quite a lot. Could I just ask what the process was for choosing those priorities? How much support did you get from the council to develop those priorities and what would success look like to you for your top priority as deputy mayor or youth mayor? So in regards to the process, anyone was really allowed to apply for youth mayor and you were voted by your fellow Youth Council members, I came second, in regards to my priorities we were kind of given a, not really a list but sort of like suggestions of the main focuses in Wandsworth and we were kind of able to develop what we thought was most personal to us. I'm not sure if you've seen but in my manifesto at least I focused most on mental health and well-being of the young people and financial literacy and employment and so yeah, those are quite like personal to me and I picked them because it is kind of like a growing problem in our borough to not have like a lot of young people finding work experience for example unless you have a friend or parents have a friend and a lot of the mental health services are kind of demonized by a lot of young people because they're not seeing the best outcome. For example, a lot of people my age don't really like seeing cams or those kind of services and would prefer a more alternative version instead of those kind of services so yeah that's why I focused on them a lot. I'm so sorry, what was your last question? Just very briefly, what would success look like for perhaps your top priority? For me success would just look like young people being confident in taking leadership roles, I know a lot of young people like for example this youth mayor scheme is quite new to me and to a lot of young people I don't even know existed and it is the first time that we've done it and I would like other people that would look like me or like who would look up to me in some sort of way to feel like they can take a role like this because it is made for them and it's important like we're seeing here now we need more young people taking a role of initiative into making decisions for their future. Thank you. Can I just add as well from an officer's perspective as well in terms of support for the youth mayor and deputy mayor as well we're very aware and very conscious that these are they are still young people and they do need support around them to to help them to engage with processes like this and also to continue that process of engaging with their peers as well. They also receive a significant amount of support from their peers within the youth council as well so they're all members of the youth council and the rest of the youth council do support them in all of their projects going forward as well so there is that ongoing support both from their peers from council officers and and if we feel that there is additional support that needs to be brought in then then we we can arrange that. Do any of the young people want to contribute on that before I go to the next question? No. Councillor Paul I think you were next and then Councillor Eric. Thank you. I think this question is really for the officers just expanding the representation and visibility of the youth council is essential to meet the council our mission in terms of being a listening council just wondering what other strategies because you spoke about like the membership at the moment is like 33 was it 33 you mentioned yeah it's just what are the other strategies you have to encourage young people to participate have you got kind of longer term strategies in addition to what the the members mentioned and thank you for your presentation I think. Hi thank you so as the members have mentioned previously the plan is to for us to hold sessions within a lot of the youth groups spaces where young people are within the borough for whatever reason there are young people who cannot join the youth council either because of where it's located or their availability so if we're out in the in the community and holding our sessions within those areas that gives young people an opportunity number one to see what the youth councils about and see that they can join and also ensuring that we're capturing their voices and hopefully increasing our representation across the borough. Just about numbers because you mentioned 33 I was just wondering if there is a limitation in terms of how many people can take part well we're at as I said we're at you know maximum capacity at the moment but they're during our sessions they're for whatever reason not every young person can attend so there's always I've not been in a position where I've said okay no we can't you can't join at the moment so yeah I mean depending on the space that we that we have at the moment we're managing fine with about 30 odd young people but as I said not young people are not going to be attending every session. Councillor Owens. Thank you for an excellent presentation and comments I did have a question for the officers again about the reach but I was actually very interested in something favors said in terms of work experience because it strikes me that many of the schools across the borough and I have experience of this because I have two children and the ones with state school at your sort of age they're often what happens with work experiences is up to the children and frequently there are children and we often get messages about this as parents who don't have any work experience at all and they actually have to go and sit in the library for a week or two in at the end of the school term and I was very interested in perhaps work that the youth council could do to improve that and perhaps how obviously there needs to be more engagement with schools around the borough but at the same time I was wondering are the schools that you're engaging with are they mainly the community schools or are they the academies as well and also it's interesting that college is obviously out of school out of borough so you must have come into the youth council different route but thank you yes the range of schools that we engage with currently tend to be quite traditional schools that have always engaged with the youth council and I think that's what Claudia was referring to earlier about how the promotion is a lot of it is word of mouth and other young people talk to other young people and that's one of the best ways of recruiting to the youth council we're very aware that actually there are certain other schools that we're not getting that reach into and that's where we again we will target our recruitment and we'll target our marketing to try and reach some of those schools where we're not getting those young people's coming coming from there but also as Keziah mentioned about actually taking the youth council to the different community different parts of community as well it is can be quite difficult traveling into one set place within the local priorities so I think it's really important that we do get out and start to listen to the young people wherever wherever they are within their communities thank you very much Hollis so I think we've had about half an hour on this so if are there any more questions or Councillor Stockton did you want to say something so Councillor Stockton I know you want to say something just on the tech there we are going to share Millie's video with everybody after the meeting it's a shame that that happened Councillor Stockton you want to say a few words yes chair thank you very much now I just wanted to say for my part just thank you to the youth mayor the deputy youth mayor and members of the youth council and the participation team for coming along tonight I do think it's so important that you have a seat at the table with members of the council and to express as you have so ably tonight the things that you really care about and I definitely hear that I think the saying goes you know not nothing about us without us and I hope we can continue to do that I think we've made some strides today and I hope that we continue to do that into the future you know we are committed to being a listening council I don't have all the answers I don't think each of us have all the answers we all are a product of our own experience so it's really important to me that all over the council not just in the children's directorate we are listening to your experiences and I really take on board the points you've made about how we can further embed the youth council into the council I think I've had some ideas about that that I'm hoping might come out soon and really kind of take that forward and the point that's made about your own experience about the importance of representation and I'm really pleased that we've achieved growth so far but I hope that the youth council will grow and the youth mayor initiative will will further grow into the future so thank you thank you so much the young people for coming and to those in the participation team as well I look forward to seeing you again soon thank you so members of the committee this report is for information so I'm asking you to note the report do we note the reports thank you thank you so I think that we now move on to the next agenda item I hope you all enjoyed that so we can now move to the next paper which is supporting children and families affected by domestic abuse a very different area to be looking at from where we've just been with the young people but very very important so members we have the immense privilege to have a survivor of domestic abuse here to speak to us this evening now in order to do so and protect their anonymity a resolution needs to be passed to exclude the press and public and stop the webcast so what I'm going to do is I'm going to make a proposal and then I'll ask for a seconder so this I propose that under section 100a4 of the local government act 1972 members of the public and press be excluded from the meeting whilst we hear from the parent because it is likely that exempt information would be disclosed to them if they were present and it is considered that the public interest in maintaining the exemption outweighs the public interest in disclosing the information I asked for a second point of order supportive of this in principle but if the committee wants to make recommendations to the executive on the paper could that be heard in open session after the presentation yes I confirm that yes we can do that thank you everybody so that is agreed I now need to check that the webcast has been stopped if you could confirm that form can you confirm that we're now back on webcast we've restarted thank you very much thank you very much so we just need to finish up on that last paper and I need to ask the committee to note the report we note the report thank you so we move to the next paper which is design and construction of the primary school and community facility building at nine Elms Battersea paper number 24 to 264 and I'm actually going to hand over to Anna Popovici at this point to introduce this paper thank you chair and actually thank you to everyone for allowing us a bit of a break between the two very distinct yet very important items that we've been discussing because I really want to change the tone slightly and potentially the mood music in the room for this item because this paper counselors and colleagues talks about four different themes in my view the first is the ambition of this council to actually do well for all its children the second theme is the theme of aspiration you know thinking about all children but particularly those in most difficult circumstances and those with special educational needs and disability this paper also talks to an alliance an alliance and a partnership that we've been able to get from strength to strength and I'm looking at the head teacher across the room when I'm saying that an amazing partnership with an educational provider that's very close to our hearts that makes this possible and the fourth theme is the theme of architecture because we want to think green we want to think big we want to think sustainable in terms of what what this council wishes to build you know for our local communities and I'm really privileged to be talking to this paper I'm not going to do much of the talking actually because there's other people in the room that will do that and with that in mind I am deeply honored to actually have and welcome Sarah Colimore the head teacher of St George's into this room into this environment and before I hand over to her if I might pay tribute to decades of dedication to decades of commitment to ones for children you know you've given those children tools for lives and I've seen them coming back time and again even later on as accomplished adults now you know to pay tribute to what you've done and I know the commitment is still there and you're roaring to go again into a new space so chair with your permission can I please bring in our lovely Sarah Colimore at this point thank you really lovely to be here and I would just like to say genuinely what a privilege it is to be sitting here talking about the potential of the new school I think I have worked in my school for 21 years and came to Wandsworth you know 2003 the brighter borough Brendan Ryan had all of the marketing to bring us to Wandsworth and it really has been an absolute privilege of my life and career to work in Patmore estate with the families that we serve at St George's and the opportunity to do that bigger and more and bring communities together is a real aspiration for us about 10 years ago my predecessor and I sat and talked about the new school when it was first mentioned and you know we sat there and said we've got to get involved in this somehow because we've got to bring those communities together and for us we feel that the knowledge we've got from our 20 years in the job where we are and you know if you imagine sitting in my office in St George's in Patmore estate 20 years ago there's nothing around St George's absolutely nothing and now you know to drive in every morning and see you know the development and the opportunity and I think the crucial thing for me is that that opportunity is for our children as well because it would be so easy for that not to be the case and I think the the potential to bring communities together the community center is just such a huge opportunity to do the work you've been hearing about all night with communities together supporting families family hubs and it's just really exciting social emotional mental health is an absolute passion of mine and you know working with children in a trauma-informed way is the way forward and we've heard that this evening so to be able to you know expand and have a base that supports children with those needs is a really exciting step forward for St George's I mentioned in the paper it's 200 years in 2026 since St George's has been on the site and it feels like a really wonderful opportunity to take St George's with the council forward together and you know the partnership has been fantastic so far and we are genuinely excited to work with you to bring this about for the children in Nine Elms Patmore estate Queenstown all those wards that sit around the new development so thank you. Thank you very much that was very moving to hear and I think all of us share your passion for bringing those communities together so so important right to questions Councillor corner I can see and Councillor Paul. Thank you chair and thank you Miss Collinmore for coming to the committee and just explaining a bit about how the the new school proposal and also the Nine Elms opportunity area and regeneration as a whole is actually providing opportunities for the children and the community that you serve at speaking briefly as a Nine Elms Councillor I'm delighted that this school is going ahead and it's really good to see that there's progress in that regard but I have to say I'm very I do have concerns about this 22.4 million pound overspend that we are being asked to approve as a committee because it seems that there are no details included in the report on why that overspend has occurred for example there are no from what we can see specification details that might justify the increase in expenditure required or anything really on how there will be 22.4 million pound of additional value delivered as a result of this decision. Could we please get an update on why this amount of money is required and also could we get some commentary on why on why the estimates originally were so far out because we've known that the school would be built for a number of years now so we know about the high inflation environment and that could have been accounted for previously also this isn't the first time this committee has been asked to approve additional money for kind of capital projects is there a systematic issue here with the estimates that are being produced for projects of this nature. Mr. Halleck if you'd like to answer that. Yeah I'll take that one I think as you said we did cover quite a lot of this in the Broadwater paddock build and it's true for this project as well inflation has been particularly high in the last three years probably the highest in over 20 years and that's acute in the construction industry I think it just exceeded all expectations there was also a little bit of hopefulness in some of the forecasting possibly but there was a lot of work done with the school with Sarah and the team around specification and just refining that but do remember for this money we are getting a community provision we are getting the send base we are getting a school if we compare it to some of the bills that we did 10 years ago or so Green Mead Ronald Ross take out inflation you're not talking too much different looking at just the school element of probably 30 million or so the same base itself has a high return on investment for from a revenue point of view so from that perspective as the paper says we have covers a good portion in a quite a quick period I don't think in the past we've had a necessary prior to this inflationary period forecasting these projects wasn't a problem so I don't foresee it being one into the future as we move into lower inflation tight labor markets are still a bit of an issue just a quick follow up on that so is it really the case that inflation and I know that inflation in the construction industry has been particularly acute inflation is it true that really the case that inflation can account for a 50% increase in in the cost of this this project and and I appreciate the point about the wider community assets that being produced the sports pitch and so on very supportive of those but I believe they've always been in scope for this project so why is the overspend so massive and and even if it is about inflation predominantly can we not see in kind of a breakdown into the other factors that are driving this. So that's a predominantly inflation but yes some of it is specifications to support the school there were some concerns that Sarah had we worked with on a colonnade and so on and some extra areas which we refined which did cost additional money but the majority will be inflation I don't know what the committee wants to agree to Kate we could give more detail happy happy happy for the detail of the product should be shared with all members of the committee yes as this project went to planning back in 2021 and some of the specification is is driven by some of the requirements of a building within nine alms as well and I think it's fair to say that that is also driving some of the cost that's been within the scheme for it for a long time okay I have Councillor Paul next then Miss Haroon and then Councillor Osborne Councillor Burchell and Councillor Owens so Councillor Paul thank you just going back to the opportunities that you had mentioned I was just wondering whether you know what you see as what these new opportunities will be for the pupils and parents if you can just articulate that a bit more thanks yep definitely so I think within the development we've already seen opportunities for parents with work and we have seen a lot of our parents getting into work within the new development I think for children it's about allowing them to access a wider world than Patmore estate and being able to see that they are entitled to go into those spaces and use those spaces I think you know the building will be fabulous for them and I think it's really important that our children see they are entitled to be in amazing spaces I also think you know potentially bringing two different communities together provides lots of opportunities earlier when you were talking about work experience you know there was things where we're just growing a community that's wider that children can then have access and opportunity to mix in with other people to find in different opportunities within friendship groups and I just feel that it's crucial to bring the communities together and that in itself is going to be an opportunity to access the world together as opposed to two separate sides of the street. Actually I have the same questions that Matthew asked but we being asked to approve something that is material enough to be almost a quarter of the children services budget and yet have been given absolutely no detail about it. So I think until this committee is provided the respect it deserves by being provided with all the details necessary in order to actually scrutinize this properly we shouldn't approve it. Thank you. So that was that that was a statement you don't have a question there thank you very much. Councillor Osborne was next I think then Councillor Burchell then Councillor. I don't really I take the point that that's being made by the officers that that inflation is going to be a major contributor to some of the cost on all this but actually I don't hear that so much when I'm listening to the presentation what I hear is a holistic approach to what's being provided for the community a growing community in Nine Elms not just the community facility but the provision of the Mooga on the roof and the location of it and the folding into it of an already successful school. All of these things are going to drive forward the cost and the and the expense for the project and I'm sure nobody anywhere around the table surely is saying that we don't want this school in Nine Elms and so I think that you know we've got to sit back and take a considered approach to what's going on here and be careful in how we assess the cost and the and the contribution of the school to a growing community in Nine Elms that that is vitally important. The other thing that I'm I'm interested in with this is the the special educational needs and disability base in the school it's been said that that's going to going to accrue funds as well but I wonder if the officers are in a position to give us as Councillor Stock was suggesting a bit more detail on what might be accruing as a result of that and other facilities in this school. I'll take the first part. So I think the differential in the last three years between independent placements and our local provision obviously doing the best for children keeping them local and actually now an even more a larger financial benefit for every single place that we produce or create locally. So when I used to contribute to these papers or write them we were talking thirty thousand differential now every single place there's forty five to sixty thousand needs have become more complex as well which has contributed so those sixteen places could save us up to a million pounds a year five years it's five million ten years is ten million you very quickly gets your differential back but it was also remember this budget was set in two thousand fourteen to forty five million it was reassessed at committee but a lot has happened since twenty one when it comes to inflation and so on and the spec. Councillor Burchill I think I had next then Councillor Owens then Councillor Lee. Thank you very much I've got three points the first of it and is you know the cost of the building but it's not all for the school it's partly for the community so why is all the money coming out of education well I mean looks as if it's coming as the education pot I know some of it will be coming from sill okay so it's coming from sill but it is good but but we shouldn't but surely we should be putting some of the cost nominally thought of is community and and some as education because it's not all education okay so that's that's just something for you to think about Councillor Osbourne because you're obviously thinking about it that's kind of you I think I'm not having it to infer across the table because it will get completely out of order Mr. Halleck do you want to answer what Councillor Burchill's just asked I just want to clarify so it's DFSOR developer funded entirely so this money at the entire building including the community provision and the same base is all developer funded all 77 million thank you very much for clarifying that the children these 16 children that we're going to be making places for I am all in favour of this I think it is really a very good plan to have as many children as possible educated near home but where are these children being educated at the moment at such great cost I mean of and they're any primary school children is a little children where where are they being educated at the moment well I mean obviously we've got to think about a lot of this is to do with planning for the future because the other thing is that these are some of this is thinking about you know we've done our our reviews in terms of what our needs are so in terms of our sense efficiency plan we're looking at what's sort of coming through the system from early years in terms of that need and we are seeing SEMH as a significant need in nursery so we're almost future proofing ourselves in terms of where those children are going to go because the other thing is you know if we don't have these bases and SEMH is one of the areas where we have identified that there is a gap if they if we don't have bases for them then the likelihood is they will go into specialist provision which is more expensive and then once we fill those specialist provision then we are moving into the realms of independent settings which as Michael has said becomes very very costly so as I said as much as we're not solely thinking about the children now we're thinking about children for the future as well because the base will fill obviously from from the bottom up we may get some children that start in some of the other years but actually we're predominantly thinking about the children that will be coming through the system and as I said they're at the moment there is a gap particularly in the Battersea area around SEMH and I think from our perspective with St George's I think one of the good things is that Sarah's spoken very passionate about this area of work but also St George's have actually developed a kind of base within the school to support children with SEMH which they did themselves and from that these were children working at SEND support level actually I think you only had one EHCP that came from that so it just demonstrates actually the quality of the work that the school does around SEND which was one of the reasons as well why we were so keen to work with St George's not only on the school but the fact that we are obviously identifying an SEMH base in the provision as well. Thank you but we haven't got these children at provision outside the borough at the moment? They may well be I mean we may have children so the idea is the thing is it's difficult because obviously once children are in the provision outside the borough you wouldn't necessarily want to move them that's not the kind of thing so as I said what we are thinking about is the future so the children coming through the system they will be the ones that we can then keep locally. Thank you for your scrutiny Councillor Burchell I think it was Councillor Owens next then Councillor Lea. Thank you very much it's very clear thank you just a couple of points I agree on the base for disadvantaged children in that part of Battersea mainly because I was governor and chair of a school for over a decade that wanted a base in that part of Battersea and didn't get one but the other point I was going to make was just on the children in the borough and the numbers and etcetera and obviously this is obviously an existing school moving to a different site but just before we went into Perda at the beginning of the year we saw a chart that showed that the only school in the borough that had filled every place at reception was Belleville Primary School and obviously things have changed quite dramatically in recent years with 27% of places not filled across ones or schools and I know because my own children have attended Belleville Primary School that lots of children actually do come from the Nine Alms area are you expecting that to change obviously with the new facility but also I mean there will be children of course in Lambeth for whom it will be very easy to get to the school and I'm just wondering sort of thoughts on that in terms of the fact that we've only actually had one school in the last year that filled every place in reception thank you. I think I mean to be perfectly honest again St George's is a full one form entry school at the moment and the plan is that when they move across they will move across probably initially as a one form entry school and then will continue to fill as the demand increases which we hope it will but you said we might look to attract children from Lambeth similarly the developments in the area hopefully will yield children as well that is the plan but at the moment as I said we aren't looking at the school to necessarily fill right from the outset but would have the capacity to do so. Absolutely and then Mr Langdon. Thank you Sarah for coming to meet with us today and then I wanted I saw in the paper it talks about the community engagement and feedback that we receive or that you received and I wanted to ask a bit more specifically about the parents and children and staff at St George's and how they've sort of taken the news and what feedback you've got from them. Yep so positive overwhelmingly positive we've had some very immediate questions about uniform changes time changes parking those kind of very practical things from parents and initially when we showed the pictures the children were very excited that they thought it was a secondary school and they were going to be able to stay at St George's till they were 16 or 18 which you know so very excited children very excited about playgrounds on the roof and so lots of positives and lots of staff very excited about staying and obviously you know retention can be really challenging in London schools and you know lots of staff saying you know we want to be in the new site we want to work in the base as well and have that you know that different experience so overwhelmingly positive one question about parking that you know we might have to move schools because we can't park near it but genuinely a really positive positive response from everybody. Mr Langdon. Thank you I think this might be a question for officers if that's okay the issue with section 106 money is that it's money in search of ideas rather than ideas or evidence-based policy in search of money so how was this project identified as the best use of section 106 funding what else was on the table and was not considered that might take you outside your remit a bit Michael sorry. Okay I know as part of the development I will go into what I know that was a requirement to build a school obviously this has been going on for over well over a decade so part of the agreement with the developers is that a school is delivered and therefore we need to deliver and that needs to have a community provision and so there is the risk that if we don't deliver the school they could developers could ask for their money back but can I give the best flashy lovely school aren't we so. Councillor Davies next and then I can see Councillor Covelli and then Councillor Corner. Yes so we were thinking about yes a future-proofing and you know and it created a school with this opportunity for otherwise a community creative drive with a same base a mega community park a state-of-the-art building bringing different communities together and gosh that sounds you know very very attractive doesn't it but yeah so in terms of future-proofing I guess some of this is about the population projections as well in Nine Elms we know this current school population and we know about you know yeah there's fallen moles and some gaps in schools but then we've also got all of those yeah small family starter flats coming up and yeah so how much of that is a fact of the importance of having a school here. Yeah I mean I think I've said it I think that you know that the reality is when when I think when I started you know we we balanced out the position of falling rolls and a new school and you speak to any local authority and if you've got a new area with properties being built you know a school is the heart of the community and if we didn't have a school in that community we're missing an opportunity there and I think we we assessed it and recognized that actually building a brand new school given falling rolls was not a was not viable and therefore we looked at other alternatives and that's when we engaged in the conversation about let's bring a local school on board and in and really think about that unification of communities which for me is very exciting I'm very much about how can we give all children you know access to all opportunities that the area brings and and open their eyes to possibilities that for me is is so exciting for children to actually step across and just see you know iconic buildings and and and have a fantastic school that's got a community space that they can share I think the other thing for me that is great is that St George's School will benefit and their communities will as will other children that can come but one of the things that I spoke about was with other heads because obviously when we said about building a new school there with falling rolls there was comments about okay what does this mean but actually when we explained it we said this is how it's going to work and this is what we're going to do other heads were really excited about the opportunities it would afford to them as well so it doesn't just sit with St George's but it brings such a you know bringing together of a number of schools because the space is so multifaceted that so many schools will be able to benefit from this opportunity and so many children so that's for me is what's really exciting about it. Thank you. I have got Councillor Crivelli then Councillor Corner. I just want to say you know it's it is it does look like an exciting opportunity and to have an additional base for 16 children with special needs that is to be very much welcomed and I don't think anyone dispute you know from a financial point of view this the savings that will be made year on year is something that is really commendable and you know to have the foresight to be able to make this sort of plan is really great that we'll be able to make that sort of savings while at the same time having this amazing new base. I do just think you know that the public would expect us to be critical and analyse with great scrutiny the additional 22.4 million that we're being asked to commit to and I correct me if I'm wrong when I draw a parallel between the decision we made on Broadwaters my recollection was that we were given quite a bit of statistical data about the increased cost there was graphs which made it very clear why these costs had been incurred and why there was this difference between the initial project figure and why there was this new project figure not only did it make it easy for us to understand and to approve the increased cost it also made it easy for us to justify why we'd arrived at that decision so if we could have that breakdown I do think it assists us in making that decision. I appreciate you did make a comment there Mr. Halleck about the original figure and you said you thought it might have been partly derived from hopefulness it does rather give the impression doesn't it that it's an optimistic figure for the initial project and perhaps is it an optimistic figure that's maybe been sort of made optimistic on the hope that the council would approve the initial project? I think what I meant hopefulness was more about not anticipating inflation to have such a big impact I don't think any of us can see the future so we're all even the Bank of England with lots and lots of economists under shoot over shoot so there's that but yes it was a lot of money just like you share your concerns so are we with the mount and we're trying everything we could to keep it within budget as that budget became ever increasing for a period of time it is now set in stone we are going to deliver to the 677 million and it'll be a great provision. Councillor Stockton did you want to respond? I can yes I don't know if that's the end of the discussion but thank you Sarah for joining us this evening and articulating your vision for the new school particularly that point about bringing the opportunity here to bring new and old communities together and I think that again there's been a shared mantra around it takes a village to raise a child and this school is a real opportunity we shouldn't keep referring to it as a school because it really is a school and community centre and I think we talk about it in the paper as a community village hub for all and I think that's right it isn't just going to be the school, the nursery, the send hub which is a fantastic provision that we're going to be able to bring to Battersea but also kind of community space, cultural space in the foyer, leisure space, Amuga, sports halls and kind of multi-use space for some of the community organisations that are already working in that area and I know some of our other community organisations who work with young people you know are very keen to see some greater sports facility and work has also been done to ensure that as much of the school site can be accessible to the community outside of school hours as well that will bring real value. I hear the concerns that have been shared by councillors around transparency in the numbers you know I agree no school can be built with a with a blank check but this is really important that we deliver this project for the community really important that we deliver it by September 2026 and I have seen the information which accords like Councillor Crivelli was saying with the information that we've seen previously at this committee on on Broadwater and I'm happy for that information to be be shared but I would encourage you to support us moving forward with this proposal collectively it seems that that's the ambition here so that this project you know can continue quickly in order to be able to meet that target opening date. We are already doing enabling works you know to try and move things forward but we really need to sign this contract in order to be able to deliver for the for the community. Thank you Councillor Stock. So this report is for decision. Thank you very much and I really do agree with what Councillor Stock you just said. This is an excellent community asset to Councillor Osborne's point we should absolutely you know be supporting this building the community it's it's excellent I'm delighted it's going ahead I really am and on this side of the table we don't want to stop this project going ahead I've been supporting it for years and it will really improve the the sense of place within Nine Elms so let's get this done but it is not appropriate that the council that the committee is being asked to approve this with such limited information and I did want to draw the committee's attention to to this point on paragraph 14 it says the revised full project cost is seventy seven point four million we are being asked to approve at this committee twenty two point four million that means that the estimated fixed cost build of fifty five million has we've already got that money approved so why can't we go ahead with this with the currently approved money and work with the contractors to make sure we get the best deal possible now we know that we can go ahead with this school project building project because yesterday the council sent out a press release lauding the project and saying how great it was that we were able to make progress on it and I agree with what that press release said but it's clear that either one of only one of two things can be true either that press release was sent out two days ago in error and that the continuation and progress of the project is contingent on what we're being asked to approve today or that the press release was correct and that progress can be made and as per the paragraph that I've just mentioned and referenced that there is actually enough money in the pot for this project to continue as is at the moment and that this committee could take another meeting to consider all the options all the detail that Councillor Crivelli has asked for the potential uses of section one oh six developer levies that Mr Langan spoke about and take a more considered approach to make sure that this project delivers not only the excellent benefits that we've heard about and that we fully support but also value for money for this council and for the children and young people at the borough just to be really clear yes value for money is definitely at the heart of what we're trying to do here to be really clear the entirety of this budget is being funded by developer infrastructure levy there is no call on the general fund or the resource to be able to deliver that is part of the council's initiative of making developers pay and I think you're wrong in relation to your reference to paragraph 14 because I think paragraph 13 makes entirely clear how much is left of the 55 it makes clear that there's only 38 million point five million left because 15 million has already been used to acquire the land to build the site and as I say we have already been starting enabling works to build to build the school so your your assumption around the remaining money left is incorrect that's my understanding but officers can correct me if I'm wrong. Councillor Osborne if you want to come in at this point and then we need to move to a vote yeah I was just going to say I think we need to move to take a decision I take the point that you know not everybody has has got all the information they might want on the on the funding of this I mean the point is if you prepare a paper like this it is sometimes difficult to know how much detail to go into and there's been an assurance from the cabinet member that there's full transparency on this if people want to know more that's always possible so I suggest that rather than constantly hint that we should delay or stop or get in the way of this that instead what we ought to do is move to a decision and and approve the paper as as said in the in the recommendations. Thank you Councillor Osborne yeah the point has just also been made to me that these papers were released over a week ago so we we could have or you you could have put your concern forward at an earlier point but no no no equally we didn't have we didn't have the preview that we usually have with officers before the weekend so people weren't given sufficient time to absorb the papers this isn't about criticizing the project or criticizing officers it's great that we're progressing with this project what we need to and I don't accept the point raised by Councillor Osborne we we can't just rely on an assumption that we'll get detail that will be satisfactory after we've approved this decision when the administration came to power in 22 they said in their manifesto that they would open the books and allow full scrutiny all we're doing as a committee is saying can you give us that scrutiny yes before we approve it Councillor Osborne that's what we need no I'm saying we should have more information before we approve the full amount of money we should support the project and give the project the support it needs to continue but before we release all of this money which is 50% increase on the original budget which was set only last year we should we should exercise our right as a committee to see that information so we can be sure that young and of course do you have an amendment do you have an amendment Councillor no what we want to do is we want to abstain onto a we want to give our full-throated support to to B and C because we do want the project to go ahead but we we need to see more detail on how it's exactly going to be funded before we can support the additional twenty two point four million thank you very much Councillor corner that's yeah that couldn't be clearer I appreciate that thank you so this report is for decision it's the only paper that's for decision this evening miss Wilson well I think you I would just like to say that I should I will abstain on these decisions as being a member of the diocesan Board of Education I think there's too much of a conflict of interest there so that's the the only reason I'm abstaining thank you very much and thank you for making that clear so if we look at the recommendations which are on page 32 and then I'll take them one by one so if we can look at the recommendations and we're looking at paragraph 1 paragraph 2 the executive is recommended to at a all those for a all those against and all those abstaining so what we're voting on so you're about to call a vote on to be which delegates executive director children's services to enter into this contract now that there isn't a majority on the committee for this money to be released to what extent is that delegation going to apply I agree that she should be able to take measures to to continue the project and make sure that it isn't delayed but to what extent will it allow her to spend money just to be really clear about the decision-making here said what the vote that just took place was a recommendation by this committee to the executive that that can be taken into account at the executive when the executive makes its decision as will the subsequent votes on the subsequent paragraphs that are going to be voted on but in terms of actually the decision of the council that the decision-making body of the council it is the executive not this committee I'm not denying that I'm just asking for what the recommendation of this committee would actually entail given what's just happened can we can we've moved to yes absolutely so this is paragraph 2b I'm going to ask everyone who is for paragraph 2b everyone who is full paragraph to be everyone who is full paragraph to be and moving to paragraph 2c against and abstain so everyone against paragraph to be naught and abstentions on paragraph to be two abstentions and now moving to a paragraph to see all those for thank you any against abstentions I'm looking at the time it's now quarter to ten so we can move swiftly to schools finance dedicated school grant recovery this paper highlights the challenges and successes in supporting children with scnd amid financial volatility and increasing needs working within these financial pressures are per focus as always remains on meeting the needs of our children and their families I think mr. Evans is going to speak to this paper mr. Evans or mr. Halleck mr. Halleck okay so I'm a firm believer in better practice equals better finances and I think a whole recovery plan really is built around that everything we do our sufficiency strategy early intervention and managing price all play into good robust decision-making but in most cases nearly all what's good for the child is also better for the finances our sufficiency strategy links with price every single placement does not only place locally but also brings down our average cost per price and that's how we've managed to keep our inflation below the headline figures that we see when you look at our price increases average price increases overall I had the privilege of joining a local government association peer review of a another council last week it was an intense meeting but it did also show that focus on getting that ordinary array available provision that graduated response right which is that escalation slowly through support services rather than going from 0 to 100 eacps by having that in place you really really can make a difference for the child you can help school support children in mainstream settings more cases than not and so our recovery plan really does look at all those factors we have invested significantly in sufficiency we have to invest in early intervention we have a whole lot of initiatives that we've been through a few times and on the whole it is paying off the funding element is all these variables are very very sensitive and therefore you're playing with very fine margins and the one element that could really help as paper outlines is just one percent increase in funding will make a huge difference to the bottom line while we're controlling every other element thank you thank you very much mr. Halleck um have you got any questions on that on that paper councilor crew belly I just wanted to ask you a question about the paragraph eight and nine you talking about the rise in eh CP growth and a I mean the paragraph II talked about the fact that rise number of each CP is one of the biggest driver of course within sit the same system and that's obviously something that's reflected very much nationally across councils throughout the whole of England Wales and there's obviously been a big rise in the past decade of of the understanding of issues about ADHD ASD and insane needs but what I was curious about and maybe you cannot can answer this is says eh CP growth in Wandsworth has been below the national trend since 2020 a number of each CP is grown by 27% while London growth 42 and nationally you were quite a bit behind London and the national trend I was wondering if there's a particular reason for that yeah so there's we have a lot more early intervention provision our state our mainstream inclusion is strong we have that ordinary available provision with our investments in nipper that's at the early years stage we've got our therapies some local areas don't have that salt provision don't have occupational therapy the only way to access those is by any HCP we have a very strong provision which we can still look at and enhancing but it is still strong at that same support level one of the biggest reasons parents and schools apply for a HCP is access to therapies so we've looked to support that obviously falling roles is also an underlying support of downward yeah it's a piece but I think it's a resounding success really I also think that there's increased parental confidence in schools we have as Michael said we've invested a lot of money in our support services to provide support to schools to model and that's a early years teams inclusion teams the ordinarily available provision document that we have developed with schools has been really really beneficial we've also got parents guide now as well so that parents know what they should expect from schools in terms of support for children and as I said I think what we're seeing from this is an increase in parental confidence in terms of schools being able to support children effectively at send support level and I you know even the example I gave of Sarah in her school actually setting up her own kind of base to support children has been clearly beneficial because it then drove far fewer HCPs than maybe we would have expected had she not put that support in place so I really do think that our investment in our services to support our schools and that the earliest opportunity has really enabled us to drive down the number of requests free HCPs a council hospital and then Councillor Paul yes if I can just continue on exactly the same subject I mean I think it's important to say of course if any child does need an education health and care package they're going to get it and it's and that's important but I think it's also important to just sort of move slightly to one side and park this discussion of HCPs as a as a financial matter it is a positive regardless of the finances that we found ways and methods of bearing down on the numbers by early intervention by other systems more inclusion in the mainstream and so on that is a major positive regardless of what of a finance paper at Children's Committee so I suppose if I have any question on it it would be is there anything else we can do on that to keep keep that process in motion make sure that we're achieving that all the time I'm Kenneth Evans I'm the assistant director for finance for children services we're looking at other projects as well all the time so we're just looking at some data around transition so children who move from primary school to secondary school that's an area where there's a historically a spike of the HCP requests at that time so we're looking at that as well as a potential investor safe initiative thank you I think I've got Councillor Paul next and then Councillor cool thank you I'm just thinking about the falling school numbers so it's just the impact of the falling roles is having like an increasing factor on and putting pressures on schools and things so I'm just wondering how does the council plan to manage school budgets with these lower pupil numbers and how can we help them schools avoid becoming overly reliant on EHCPs to secure funding things we actually put a lot of support provide a lot of support for our schools and looking after their finances I think this is the the third local authority I've worked at and we provide more support directly to the schools that teachers the business managers within the schools in looking after their finances and budgets we've got a whole system of escalating support in terms of schools who are beginning to get into financial difficulty you're absolutely right as schools experience falling roles that's likely to happen more we try to predict that and help schools sort of ensure they're correctly resourced for that that future provision that's required yeah and also just to add on that you know talking from a financial position the good thing is that we have very clear join-up between our SCN team performance and participation team finance team so we work together because it's really important that yes the money is very very important because clearly it's how schools manage but actually we've got to balance that with quality of education teaching and learning and we've got to make sure that actually yes there are some balances that we have to find and these are conversations we have all the time with head teachers but I think it's really important that we work very very closely together and I think also what we do is we look at where huge if we've got an outlier in terms of requests from schools for EHCPs it's then trying to work out right what is what sits underneath that and how can we support schools then with well what is it why are you putting in the request for more EHCPs and can we do something slightly differently to help you because we totally get that actually we're pushing an inclusion agenda where you know schools have got tight budgets and that becomes very very difficult so it's that balance between the two so it's just making sure that we and that drives some of our work around well what other support can we put in place and therefore that's when we think about the other programs that we can deliver you know we've recently done an SEMH review and that's really identified where our gaps are so it's really important we stay ahead of the game in terms of looking at trends and looking at what's happening so that we can plug those gaps before they appear I think that's what I was going to ask next is what does that look like in terms of not if you're not delivering that what what does the other thing in plugging the gaps what does that look like so in terms of in terms of the support that they might need again I mean that that's where we we tweak services we look at what support we look at training and for me it's very much about upskilling people that's really really important because actually one of the things we're looking at now is working alongside schools you know it's all well and good going in and and and having a conversation about job actually going in observing modeling practice so that actually then you can upskill your teachers they feel more comfort confident then in terms of supporting children within the setting and then we don't hit crisis points sometimes for those children so it's about the training the modeling I'm really thinking about our resources and our our resources fit for purpose you know sometimes we have to flex our services and think things slightly differently in terms of the support that schools need just to say on keeping schools full is probably the best thing we can do financially to give them all the resources they need. I think I had Councillor Corner and then Councillor Burchfield yeah just a quick question really almost a clarifying question that I have on the scenario planning which is really helpful for just seeing what might happen in certain assumptions my understanding is that the scenario on page 59 of the pack is the high probability scenario that we're saying is most likely going to happen and that does show that the DSG would still be in deficit by 28 29 albeit not by as much as it actually just by slightly less than it will be in 24 25 or half half of what it will be but still in deficit and then scenario two on page 60 shows that it'll be in surplus but that's significantly less likely from from what I can tell by the quite ambitious assumptions and then page 63 shows a scenario where we received two years of 10% increases in funding surely scenarios two and three based on what we now know at the moment are vanishingly unlikely to happen what's your view on that well we are lobbying government quite considerably so we're once worth of taking the lead in hosting the fair funding national conference in spring we will have the deputy director of the SFA presenting as a keynote speaker we're hoping to have some ministers there it'll be all schools finance and send colleagues invited so a national event to really focus on on this as long as the HCPs are growing at we are doing well at four point eight percent and falling national 10% and you've got inflation even if it was a two percent there's going to be a differential there at three percent which is going to have to be addressed either through one way away or another either more money or change in in the way we do things so I think there's a possibility that this area could be looked at if it's not we will have to work through and keep doing what we're doing I do think even at the five percent eleven even at the three percent there will be a tipping point where we see declining the HCP numbers and we can start making inroads yeah thank you very much mr. Halleck and I think yeah from the chair I just wanted to thank you and your team and all of you because it's outstanding the work that you're doing I think what you've just shared with us that Wandsworth is going to be hosting this conference in the spring with ministers it shows that we are absolutely taking a lead on this and that that is recognized nationally and I think it's something that we should all be proud of from the previous administration and the work that was done there and what we're continuing to do now it it's really lovely to see Wandsworth way out ahead and thank you very much for all your work on that so one more question from Councillor Owens and then this report is for information so that you'll and then Councillor Owens well Councillor Balswell said very eloquently quite a lot of what I wanted to say so thank you and it's it's quite hard work trying to work out this and and I wish you luck that that it all comes good in the end but it has you know your hard work in setting up all of the bases and within the schools I think is brilliant so glad that that's working out to be a success can I just ask how many extra places are we expecting at paddock next year when they move to Broadwater will there be more places and and and a follow-on from that is are we succeeding in reducing the number of children we are sending to private provision so on the panel question it's 67 new places but it will be a school of over 300 allow us to have a proper primary school and a secondary school purpose-built and each place saving between 40 and 60 thousand pounds it's it's a it's a invaluable provision I can't stress that from every aspect on the second point which was sorry oh yes so last year one of our main success stories is that independent placements were flat last year our ambition is to start reducing them and I think as the grand art comes online with expanded places paddock we've got a very very good chance of achieving that goal council Owens thank you and I can carry with us was already being said I just just slightly just want some clarification on something you reference on page 51 paragraph 16 about the the vast majority of new funding provided for the early years set up obviously for two years and of course that obviously stems from previous governments funding of childcare for those I think for two-year-olds across the board but I was interested because of course you've got in on page 15 paragraph 52 the relocation of Eastwood nursery to Granard primary and I and obviously they are looking at that so I can see obviously they had a particular place as a base section it makes more sense I can I also understand that for those places to perhaps be at Granard primary but at the same time I also understand that that the three nursery schools the Federation are sort of you know having some some staff reductions etc is that because of the high needs at say Eastwood with a casing or is that because of numbers or is that just because the government's proposals on ratios for small children have changed just curious thank you and then I'll ask my colleagues to chip in if I've missed anything but it's mainly falling roles driving the maintain nursery school changes in efficient ratio staffing allocations I would say they cannot run with way too many staff is basically a very simplistic way of putting it but that's how it was we need to right size them and then rebuild them moving the base out of Eastwood into Granard what did make sense each we were losing tribunals with the transition between nursery and reception each one of those was costing sixty to ninety thousand pounds we now have all through which is better for the children as well it's a specialist equipped school now with far bigger economies of scale which makes sense financially as well and the space is released in in Eastwood for us to bring the day nursery into one bridge provision which is a nicer provision that's new and we've invested some money to to make it look good and the outside area so that doesn't come without us challenges at the moment but at many falling roles driving us the need for that I don't know at least we want to add yes come back because just a follow-up because clearly I mean if the government was the previous government actually that extended some of the initial charcoal is is meaning that obviously across the board there are more nursery places being taken because by definition people are getting parents getting a contribution particularly now for potentially from nine months old onwards I'm just wondering if the plans in place to perhaps with those nursery schools extend the term time to all 50 weeks of the year whatever it is all wraparound from eight till six or whatever the private sector does that seems to be popular thank you yeah I mean I think we're seeing it already at one of our primaries I think Valham are maintained nurseries they're looking at their model looking at how they can do things slightly differently then we need to have the flexibility for families so yeah I mean there's there's absolute scope there in terms of thinking about that model and we're working alongside all of our maintained nursery schools I know Somerset at the moment they they have got a very flexible offer and their numbers are very very good and we've just got to make sure we look across the piece in terms of making sure that our nurseries meet the needs of their communities ideally that's what we're looking to do and and and they will be different across the the various nurseries and and we're working with the heads that are leading those settings to make sure that they have that flexibility to meet the needs of their families so bearing in mind the time I think it's ten past ten now this report is for information so can we note the report for information agreed thank you very much and again huge thanks to your team and the school's team we come to the last paper of the evening which is quarter one budget monitoring now this committee has never received quarterly budget monitoring reports they've always been to need so this is the first one for us and it provides an overview of the position in Children's Services in what we all know as we've all discussed in these the previous paper this evening a very challenging environment your insights and expertise and scrutiny as well as counselors are vital as the work as we work together to ensure that Children's Services Department has the right financial resources to meet the needs of all children in the borough and going forward with these quarter reports your contributions will be invaluable so I know in an earlier paper Councillor Corning you were asking for more transparency this is absolutely it this is again it's not just going to be to need to get one at every year every meeting Mr. Halleck I think you were going to speak to this paper so I think on the whole it's a positive story we did come here a year ago with a recovery plan with thereabouts meeting that this report shows that we are obviously it doesn't come without its challenges but at the moment a really good position to be in compared to many others anybody got any questions on the paper Councillor Paul and then Councillor Davies I can see thank you you just mentioned about challenges I'm just wondering if you can expand on that what the challenges are managing the budget and also what the pressures are if there are any pressures so I think managing demand has been excellent with especially in the social care practice model working to keep children at home that definitely is a massive benefit to the finances those residential placements are on the flip side our biggest risk these days as I have said at these committees before but a placement in residential used to be an expensive one was two hundred fifty thousand pounds a year they're now one point two million you just need to have one of those and your budget is no longer balancing for that year so it is very fine margins I think managing demand is definitely our success and by not having fewer of those than others on the whole that our benchmarking does show that we are outliers in a way that we're that good at our placements definitely helps with the finances I would say that's the biggest the biggest risk by far I see in transport alongside that can be a risk but it's more that trickle effect than a big one placement and and and it makes a huge impact so yeah thank you for this paper um I was wondering how we could drive sort of like being effective and inclusive by increasing the work with the voluntary sex community organizations faith organizations in delivery of these services which I guess is part of the integrated care system but you know it can be a financial sort of you know benefit to the council be made that most definitely early intervention definitely works if it's done effectively and and and you target correctly voluntary organizations have other ways of raising funding so every penny we put in they can match it with additional funding they are also very innovative and on the pulse with the community site we definitely should be leveraging that especially to deal with that the front door the early intervention thank you for highlighting on earlier years Councillor Davies Councillor Cuvelli I know you want to come in Councillor corner thank you chair and thank you well done to the team for controlling the budget in in this way and I know that not all directorates in the council have had had the same kind of success that we we've had in children so well done for that the variances on page 65 the Q1 variances these are essentially projections of what we think the variance will be over the whole year right to what extent would you argue that business resources is more of a fixed cost so therefore less likely to change in terms of a variance whereas children's social care as we've already had seems to be more of a variable cost it's much more likely to fluctuate and therefore the balancing position as indicated on page 65 whilst is accurate to the extent that we given what we know now is more likely to change in a negative position than a positive it's a good question the only thing I'd say is in business resources is the SCN transport budget which is relatively volatile I think we manage our staffing costs extremely well it's been a real success story so you write the volatility is in that children's social care we've got both children with disabilities in there and our social care placements both of them have been our major pressures in the last couple of years so yes there is a real risk on that line and we we can presumably we'll get a Q2 and so we'll be able to track it and thank you for that it's really helpful we do have do have placeholders built in to anticipate demand but if they're not enough then we'll have to start to affect the forecast miss Wilson home where you did you want to come in it's mostly been answered I think that I was just wanting to ask about forecasting in the future and how much notice you had all for example a new child who is going to need a lot of money spent on them yeah that's the million-dollar question so to a certain extent we have visibility of those children but obviously we're putting in interventions and we we want them to work I don't know Rashid wants to come in probably a good idea but yes we do sometimes have surprises and that is the risk yeah I think that the nature of the children and families that we're working with means that that level of complexity can sometimes come at us in ways that we don't expect so there will be children that we do know about who are working with really hard to keep at home and we may not be able to over a prolonged period but equally there will be children who might not be on our radar at all that might come in by a police protection and then have a number of complex issues that we have not been aware of and as Michael says the nature of the placement market means that that could really affect our budget quite significantly to just add to that and think in the balcony for a second that's right in terms of the children that are already in the system or we're already working with but as a borough you know we see at least a hundred thousand people coming in and out of Wandsworth on a yearly basis so it's very hard to an extent to predict you know what's gonna come in into the next wave we're also a board of sanctuary you know aspiring to be you know we've gotten a lot of an asylum-seeking children and unaccompanied minor that are knocking on our door and we are opening those doors for them so we don't really know again you know what the future holds we've got a number of responsibilities safeguarding duties for all children living in the borough when there's an immediate incident even though they could belong to a different local authority so other looked after children by other authorities but with carers in our borough so there's a lot of complexities in trying to really anticipate that level of demand we do our best but it's really really challenging thank you. Thank you very much. Councillor Burchall did you want to come in and then Councillor Davies. Yes thank you thank you chair. Page 66 at the bottom number 14 apparently there's been a significant increase in the number of children being placed in residential schools I thought we were hoping to reduce that and then we've got this very expensive chart showing us our 20 most expensive children and it's a tragedy that these children need so much money spent on them and I don't begrudge them but are we going to be able to bring any of these costs down and what about Luminous House are we using that more efficiently? Yeah those the children that are most expensive I have direct oversight of on a weekly basis our care panel so we're constantly looking at step down plans for them so to move from high cost residential into lower cost residential and ultimately into families and then to return home or to kinship care the nature of their needs means that that can be a much longer process than we anticipate the the level of trauma the level of psychological disturbance means that that can't be achieved in three to six months and sometimes it can be twelve to eighteen months and longer the nature of the placement market means that even when they have effectively done their time in the high cost residential placement we then need to search for another placement a lower level of support the market is out of control demand way out of strips supply we're competing with across the UK for placements we do have luminous luminous is is run with our partners and Christopher's luminous is currently full we use it in a very effective way to work with families to maintain children at home so they come in for a short period of time we know who those children are and to avoid them coming in for a long stay we work effectively with them and their families and get them back home it's it's it's always it's always full we've currently got one vacancy and we're looking at a child where there has been a breakdown of a foster family to come into luminous otherwise it is it's a neighborhood unit that is always it was always full so we're using it to its capacity that's a good question I think I think I think there is merit in developing a business plan to at least look at the costings for that the risk the risk of another children's home is that we want to keep children out of residential care and when you have in-house provision it means you use it but but the placement market is out of control and authorities need to do something to manage to to manage it because these costs will only go up and up and up so I think I think that's something that we are we are looking at just on demand I just want to clarify that counselor none of these are demand driven it's all price so no only Essie and transport linked to education health and care plans so residential placements is not on significantly up but the costs are because of the individual costs yeah sorry are these young people ones who are needing a lot of care because they are very difficult to to behave you know their behavior or do they have severe medical and educational needs they they have they have a range of both so those children in particular I know all of those children and they will have some neurodevelopmental difficulties still have a history of early trauma and neglect they'll have broken relationships with primary carers or the broken relationships as adolescents they'll be vulnerable to exploitation they may have been exploited they'll be likely multiple drug and alcohol users and developing serious mental health problems all of that will come out in very challenging behavior because they they can't manage themselves they can't manage their emotions they can't manage relationships so their behavior is challenging but it's challenging not because they're they're out of control kids it's challenging because they've been affected by a set of life circumstances which are really really unfortunate and challenging so our job is to wrap around them to help them manage it's complex it's complex work and if it if it were easy we'd be able to manage them in less supportive environments with the support that we give them but most of those children we we try and keep at home and wrap around them but they they're they're complex vulnerable children thank you very much no I was just going to say thank you for doing your best to do the best you can for them okay we're getting we're progressing towards some towards half past ten I think Councillor Davies you just a quick question really building on the you know the challenges when a child just sort of like pops into your radar and they might have a range of needs and I you know with the crisis in housing and particularly temporary accommodation use I can see see how someone could suddenly arrive in ones with a very little notice and I think there is meant to be a duty on other councils to be in touch but you know I have a pre experience in my day job of people sort of arriving and no one knows about these families which actually just will exacerbate the you know the complexity but the question is what can be done in terms of sort of like coordination and collaboration communication with other London councils so that we're keeping an eye on the child wherever they are a little bit more you know so if they're how house but pokes into ones with into a hotel room by Westminster we want to make sure that we've got all the juicy of care towards them even though Westminster's maybe not coming up trumps with the housing for example I'm happy to come in on that point I think it's fair to say counselor that there are pan-london protocols and there are national protocols that we all sign up to of course the quality of the relationship is what really makes a difference and we know that we are all fishing in the same pond in terms of the workforce there's challenges across the board so recognizing all of that I think what we're trying to do is to make sure that there's clear escalation protocols in place you know when you're talking about children at risk of harm and significant harm you know things are moving faster occasionally in those conversation but I think you know there's much more that we could do together to raise awareness and encourage communities you know to actually pick up the phone and talk to us you know if they come across you know the examples that you were given you know is most likely you know that our communities will come to know about somebody that's just arrived in the area back to the earlier point about domestic abuse let's all be curious about who's our next neighbor do they need help and support and come and knock on our door because yes the protocols are only as good as the people that are manning them and responding to them but that curiosity point and human relations is what's going to make a difference and I think that's probably a very good point to bring the meeting on to a close so this report is for information so I ask the committee to note the report we note the report thank you very much and thank you all for really high level scrutiny tonight excellent committee. 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