Transcript

Thank you. Now briefly run through the procedure of the meeting. The licensing case officer will present their report. We then move to the representations from the responsible authorities and residents. Today we have representations from two responsible authorities, the council's licensing enforcement team and the council's commercial environmental team, environmental health team even, and the representation from a resident. Finally the license holder who is the applicant will present their case. Members and those making representations can seek clarification as can the applicant or the representative on any matters. Members may pass a resolution to deliberate in private and exclude the press and public including the parties and their representatives. The clerk and legal advisor will remain with members to provide advice on procedure and law. When the decision has been reached the meeting will reconvene and the decision of the subcommittee will be announced in public. Full written copies of the decision will be sent to the applicant, license holder, responsible authorities and interested parties usually within five working days. Those who have taken part in the hearing may appeal against the decision to the magistrate's court within 21 days. If anyone in the chamber wishes to ask a question during the meeting may I ask them to raise their hand and wait to be invited to speak. Finally I would also ask that all my mobile phones are silenced or switched off. Thank you. So now may I invite the case officer. Thank you chair. Members of the licensing subcommittee asked to hear and determine variation for 185 Altmore Avenue, East Ham and the applicant is the current license holder. Any value representations have been made. An application to vary the existing premises license was received by the licensing authority on 13 August 2024. This was advertised at the premises and in the local paper and a copy of the application is attached appendix A. The application is for the following to extend the hours to supply of alcohol and to remove conditions 9 and 16 in annex 3 and replace with new conditions. The new license applied for is supply of alcohol off the premises Monday to Sunday 8 to 0200 hours, opening hours 0700 to 0200 hours. The current hours for the supply of alcohol off the premises are Sunday to Thursday 9 till midnight, Friday Saturday 9 to 0100 hours the following day. The conditions to be removed are a minimum of two cans or bottles of beers, lagers, ciders or stouts shall be sold. There shall be no sale of beers, lagers and ciders or stouts above a 6% ABV. Miniatures of spirits under 35cl shall not be sold. These are to be replaced with beers, lagers, stouts and ciders sold at the premises shall not exceed 6% ABV with an exception of Nigerian Guinness and Dragon Stout which has an ABV of 7.5. Beers, lagers, stouts and ciders shall be sold in quantities of two, exception of bottles of beers 500 mils or over not exceeding 6 ABV. Spirits shall not be sold in bottles of less than 20cl. The council licensing enforcement team in the capacity as a responsible authority has have submitted a letter of representation along with supporting documents on the grounds of crime disorder, the prevention of public news and public safety and their letters can be found at appendix B. The council environmental team have submitted a letter representation on the grounds of prevention of public nuisance attached to appendix C. Residents have made representation through a solicitor against the application on the licensing objectives of crime disorder, prevention of public nuisance and a copy of their letter and photos of a tax appendix D. I think the applicant solicitor will, sorry the residents solicitor will address this but for my record showing there was two residents making representation, the Datsies representing both yes. Yes thank you. Where the, I just wanted to confirm that there was two. It's two and we have disposed the full name. Yeah no I've got all them authority but I've got them back because of concern. That's appreciated thank you. I've got them yes. Where the premises lives within the community impact zone there is a rebuttable assumption that where applications do like premises license, club certificate or variation in respect of such premises would normally be refused unless the applicant can demonstrate in their operating schedule that there will be no negative impact on one or more of the licensing objectives. At the hearing members of the subcommittee would need to be satisfied that the applicant has demonstrated this. The community impact of a premises can only be considered where relevant representations are made. This means that if there are no relevant representations the application must be granted even if it falls within the CIZ. Members of the subcommittee should note that each application within the CIZ needs to be considered on its own merit and blanket refusions cannot be made. Where the licensing authority decides to impose conditions on the license in the CIZ or not such conditions must be appropriate and proportionate for the promotion of the licensing objectives. Conditions should be clear and unequivocal. The Secretary of State has issued guidance in the licensing authority to which they must have regards in carrying out their licensing functions. Members of the subcommittee should note that copies of the guidance are available at the meeting of the subcommittee. Alternatively copies can be obtained directly from the committee clerk. Licensing authorities may only depart from the guidance if they have good reason to do so. This premises does fall within the CIZ and a map of the CIZ area is attached to Appendix E. The premises has held a premises license since 2005 where previously they held a license under the former Justice Act. This license was converted and came into force on the 24th of November 2005. On the 24th of April 2017 the council trading standards team called the premises in for review. The review application was heard by the licensing subcommittee on June 2017 where the subcommittee revoked the premises license. Appeal was lodged and was due to be heard on the 2nd of May 2018. An application for a new premises license was submitted in October

1. Objections were received from Metropolitan Police and the council licensing team, trading standards and noise and nuisance team and the application was heard on the 21st of December 2017 where the application was reviewed. On the 21st of December 2017 the applicant submitted a second new application for the premises license. Objections were received from Metropolitan Police, the council licensing, trading standards and noise nuisance team and the application was heard on the 6th of February 2018 where the new license was granted. In May 2019 an application to vary the license was granted. In December 2023 the license was transferred into the current license hands. In July 2024 the current license holder applied to the licensing team for a minor variation. This was to change conditions. Representations were received from responsible authority and residence and the application was moved, excuse me, and the application was refused and there was no right of appeal to a minor variation. Current license attached is Appendix F. A map of the area is attached to Appendix G. Members of the subcommittee are asked to hear the application, representation from license holders and any valid representation from responsible authorities and to determine the application. And that concludes the report Chair. Thank you very much. Let me ask for some clarification on the July 24th application because we'd already granted a variation in April, hadn't we? 24. And I see in July 24 there was an application for a minor variation which was refused. That's correct Chair. Can you give any clarification on it? So basically a minor variation is when there's an application comes in it's a less onerous one like not like a full variation. Anybody can put an application in for a variation but it's got to be deemed that it doesn't impact on one or more of the licensing objectives. The advertisement is for 10 working days on white paper not blue paper. If there's representations from residents or responsible authorities it's the decisions made at a council level if the license is granted or refused. In this particular case there was residents and there was responsible authorities so the council licensing team deemed that it would impact on the licensing objectives so it was refused at officer level. Thank you very much. And regarding the actual area in terms of licensed premises and licenses and conditions, what is the situation? In the immediate vicinity of this premises there's three other licenses. It's 101 Burgess Road, 117 Burgess Road which is just along from that and 167 Altmore Avenue which is they're all within 50 yards, 50 meters roughly. 101 Burgess Road has got to two o'clock license and eight o'clock till two o'clock off sales. The opening hours are seven till two. 117 Burgess Road have got a sale of alcohol off the sale all three are off licenses by the way. Sale of alcohol from nine till 2200 hours every day. Opening time 6 2200 hours and 167 Altmore is 10 every day from 10 in the morning till 2300 hours. You know the hours. Right and how about the conditions on them in terms of ABV? Yeah I mean no one Burgess Road has got ABV uh so yeah they've got um six percent ABV can't sell anything over six percent ABV apart from Nigeria and Dragon Stout. Beers, lagers, ciders shall be sold in quantities no less than two with the exception of bottles of beer over 500 uh not exceeding six percent uh there's no self-service of alcohol uh spirits sorry uh yeah they've got the standard like oh spirit shall be not sold in less than 20 cls um that's for 101 by Burgess Road excuse me uh the other licenses 117 um yeah they've got the the normal conditions well not the normal ones the conditions no beers, lagers, ciders and stout six percent ABV will not be sold so nothing over six percent nothing over 35 cl no single cans um yeah they that that's that one. Pretty robust. So that that's the eight uh ten o'clock license um Altmore Arms has sorry 167 which is down the road from this premises on the same street they've got just checking to see if they've got the uh high strength stuff on the license yep uh nothing over six percent minimum number of thing of sales they can't sell anything over four uh under four sorry uh under four packs of four oh yeah the wording on this one is minimum number of sales of cans of bottles no cans and bottles of alcohol shall be sold in packs of num or numbers of less than four so that's they can't sell anything less than four and they've got they've got the um uh labeling as well on that one so the uh they need to mark all their alcohol with labels uh sales of spirits um yep permission of not being bottles of less than 35 clg thank you so that that's four premises is it three very close three there plus this that makes four in the really local facility and there's nothing particularly close otherwise uh not really it's a fair walk away other than these obviously i think the closest one there is uh i think you've got one at keple road i think it was but that's that's quite a way and then obviously you're getting into the realms of um high street north um so there's only one premises at the moment that will that sells anything over six percent if that's correct that's 101 and with the 101 they've got the dragon oh yeah sorry yeah they've got and the nigerian guinness it's just that one that sells that is but they're they're the only two um products over six percent they can sell and they're the only one that sell under 35 cent 20 cls they are yeah yeah yeah and and they have packs except for the over five right okay um i have another question but you might like to thank you we have you've actually covered quite some of the questions i'd actually make notes of here um it's in a community impact zone yep um how long has the impact zone been in place uh well the community impact zone has been in quite a while however there was a gap in the period of when it was in and then it wasn't in because there was like uh had to be updated okay and did it and i think it re-entered in about may i think it was i haven't got that on me since spring um this year so and you so why would it have been the bet i'm trying to understand is why was it removed and put back no i don't think it was ever removed i think it was just always there it's suspended until everything was put in place again to reintroduce it okay i think it's every five years is it three years five years i think it's okay today it has to be reviewed every three years three years okay that's probably what's going on there that's right so there's there's always a gap the launching of the license in april was before i think it was before it must have been before if it was april yeah and the license to 101 would have been before it yes well yeah and this application is during it that's true is what is that why or a large reason why the uh the july application was projected the minor no no no no can't take my uh committee of impasse in consideration so it was basically if people make representation against we decide whether it's going to impact on the license and objectives one all of them and at our level at office level we decided it was and then what we say is then if if it is rejected then they can put them full variation in the um i guess that's why we're sitting here today yes because that one was rejected thank you however on that one they didn't put any extra hours in where i was on this one they've put some extra hours on just to right clarify the two different just for a bit of clarification really you mentioned how the minor variation works am i right i'm thinking minor variations are like simple things moving on the cash tool generally they are um there's nothing to stop somebody putting a minor variation in to see if they can get it through or not and there's nothing wrong in doing that absolutely nothing wrong and doing that um but the representations were received so we had to make that decision whether it was um generally where minor variation is literally what it says it's for a minor change to maybe the layout something that's not going to impact anything so like if you're following sake if you've got a a counter there like selling alcohol and they want to move it to the other side of the room because they're doing a refurb the plan is a part of the license so if we come in there as a licensing enforcement team and see the the counter on a different side to where it should be looking at the plan then they're really in breach of their license not necessarily do anything but would encourage them to put a minor variation to to make that change that's generally what a minor variation is for it can be to sort of rearrange some conditions you know if it doesn't impact anything that's that's also acceptable but generally it's for very minor changes to to it with it that's not going to impact any of the objectives like moving accounts that certainly wouldn't right got to i'll get a picture thank you thank you thank you no questions right um okay thank you very much colin then we're over to see are they i think they might be oh i'm so sorry is it permissible at this stage of course it is yes yes and i should have asked everybody i mean to to sort of yes verification of yes of colin um just so that colin you've just explained to the subcommittee about the minor variation process and you also made a point of saying that in the minor variation application that was submitted we did not ask for an extension of ours at that time um would you agree with me for the licensing subcommittee's benefit that you can't actually extend the hours from sale of alcohol on a minor variation yeah and which would be the reason why it didn't include an extension that's actually yeah yeah i'm sorry yeah i just want to make that clear um and colin you also have mentioned within your report um the the issues and the happenings back to 2017 2018 2019 where there were issues with these premises um you also mentioned that today's applicant he actually took over the premises in december 2023 so everything that happened prior to him taking over is completely under new management and therefore none of the misdemeanors of those times those years can be attributed to applicant today well i i can't say that because i don't know what the if there was any connection between the old one or the new one but what i can say is the um this gentleman sitting in front you before you now took over in december 23 that's all i can say i don't know if there was any connection or anything that's up to them to demonstrate that yes i don't know so um yeah thank you thank you thank you thank you and were there any other questions for colin before we yes yes may i change please so i'm just clarifying it might be through your legal setting hours can be changed but they can't be changed for alcohol after 2300 hours on a minor variation they can't be extended they can be reduced but they can't be extended but it's not it's between eight checking uh i've got the guidance here and i'll just read up a great term variations to the following are excluded from the minor variation process and must be treated as full variation and that is to extend licensing hours for the sale of alcohol and between the hours of 11 11 p.m and 7 a.m yes so i think what mr dad yeah and in relation to the last question um of the change yeah i may not be relevant today but one way of uh doing that is that maybe um the licensing authority or the license point here can is to seek clarification of whether there's been a new lease holder because that's normally a good way and on business rates so there is change assigned that's a good way of working out whether there's a break between the old and the new yeah i mean i mean that that that's not for me to it's obviously them to decide on or to demonstrate that they are separate not not for me and the very last from uh on the on this application it's a variation so for example the council councils can add conditions to this license if they want to um yeah they can they can add conditions take conditions off it's for the decision of the committee i think not me just i'm just clarifying yeah all right thank you okay now i am right on time that doesn't mean thank you i don't have the final i've only got the light red oh sorry uh it is page 19 19. in regards to recent application from a variation license for arms 185 albot avenue easton council's licensing enforcement team would like to make representation against the application as a responsible authority from the disorder prevention of public public safety the variation is requested in the following to amend two conditions on the premises license and extend plus four hours extend the hours for the supply of alcohol and remove conditions 9 and 16 in annex three replace with new conditions uh which will be the supply of alcohol off sales monday to sunday 8 2 opening times being 0 700 hours to 0 200 hours the current hours for supply of alcohol the current license is sunday to thursday night until midnight and friday and saturday 9 to 1 am a minimum of two cans of bottles of beer lager lager side or stout should be sold at one time there should be no uh sales beers lager with the exception of nigening and dragon star 7.5 8. uh beers lager staff shall be sold in quantities of two uh with the exception of bottles of beer 500 mil or over uh not exceeding spirits shall be sold in bottles of less than 20 cl a warning letter was issued on the 28th of february 2024 to the premises for non-compliance uh with the last 2003 still breaches of the licensing conditions were observed a copy of the warning letter is attached a variation was submitted by the premises where the newham's licensing subcommittee was held on the 10th of april 2024 uh to update timings and conditions common conditions for licensing objectives would be upheld therefore the licensing authority will like this licensing subcommittee to decide on this application especially as it only been four months since this decision decision letter is also attached the council's licensing have worked very hard to create anti-social activity in this area and having the premises uh amending the condition that would extinguish over a further increase sending alcohol late at night and early in the morning at times other places are closed is also likely to attract similar anti-social behavior between between the local residents within a community application for new premises of statistical or variations in respect of such premises will be refused lest the applicant can demonstrate in the operating schedule there will be no negative vice objectives councils capacity as a responsible priority ask members thank you very much um could i just refer to the uh the warning letter that you mentioned which um because after that we did grant them the uh variation in apron didn't we make some comments about how that was issued by um licensed officer at the time um he physically started on the 27th of february 20th and the breaches that were listed was there's no premises license no plans the premises and there was several breaches of conditions including cct the aside of status lines statement should be behind um locked and chillers during his permitted life for hours um there was a missing notice in in terms of respecting the local residents and staff training um i don't believe there's any records as it's listed in says um it's a sorry um i believe a follow-up visit was done um and i believe the applicant did apply for a new copy of the license and plan and summary which everything was um therefore correct till the next visit i do believe so that's seen that those were resolved thank you um uh could i also a you're concerned about it attracting further street drinkers um if this is the uh license particularly is that is it being assigned well the uh well the hours obviously are obviously concerned because obviously there is still a number of street drinks in this area we have been working very hard on two monthly work on on east and ice tree um and we have actually called a few premises infra review in that area already and we've and we've actually put more robust conditions on their on their licenses um obviously there is some other premises that are unlicensed and obviously that's why we work and do joint operations with other authorities um to actually visit these premises and take appropriate action actions um but what we're we tend to see now is the street drinkers are sort of like moving from the high street down to the side road so obviously can't blame that on every premises no we can't do that but obviously we just have certain conditions imposed on these licenses to sort of leak issues that we do have been social behavior and street drinking um so yeah the conditions this license currently has and it has only been in place before four months five months now um which the licensing committee did impose already on this on this license so there's just a short space of time to the precinct to see how good the operator does before and like further visits that we do do the area and obviously to that premises um if we don't find any issues then obviously we can look at that at a later stage possibly is there any evidence of being priests since the um 101 since their license went to two a.m and any evidence there that that might have attracted a few more the area the area in east ham does have quite a lot of street drinkers and does sort of like i said it does form down the high street and there they are sort of preventing the areas now in the back streets um so it's i think it's always going to be an ongoing issue in this area um obviously have those appropriate conditions as many licenses as we can but obviously we do understand that businesses do need to evolve and um their business models do change thank you um i think that was what i was going to ask the moment um thank you jr i'm going to take you back to your report at base 20 and looking at uh graph one two three four from the bottom page where you spoke about all types of conditions there and police and the council um together to eradicate the issues in that area are you saying that if this license were to be granted it would increase those kind of disordered behavior aspects uh having another premises open till two o'clock in the morning would definitely attract more people to that shop in a highly built up residential area so i believe it would increase and you work cohesively on this matter do you we do a lot of joint operations and work even in the area yes but obviously from our point of view we do there is failure of compliance then we do issue warning letters and if we if there's evidence to show that there is a increase in street drinking and problems with the premises then we have a facility where we can call the premises in from here unless we haven't got a report from the police um do you actually communicate with the police on these uh police who are separate responsible authorities so it's it's entirely up to them if they wish to have evidence or um for them to object against any application almost what happened today thank you very much thank you thank you chair uh just one really um since april 24 have the better i think it's already been answered to be honest but i mean have you had further innocence instances since april 24 or vantasocial behavior or the street drinking around these premises yes around those premises from what i can see i've had no complaints in relation to these premises um but obviously there is a an increase obviously in the whole area of the picture definitely that road but um so if there's premises that there's certain high strength beers they can't obtain from premises that have been reviewed they may move to another premises but these premises at the moment those are high strength so that's one thing to take place thank you thank you open to the um do you have anything to ask steve no thank you i'd like to see clarification if i can please steve on a couple of things um the the work that you're doing in the area in respect to street drinkers you've told the licensing subcommittee that they it can be expected that the street drinkers are likely to move down um but these shops are not would you agree that these shops are not selling what i would class as the street drinkers drink of choice uh i do agree with you on on the high strength side of things there um but um obviously the street drinkers of old have evolved over the years um and people tend to just go to um premises now buy beers and sort of writer and congregate outside shops to general cans of fosters or crates of stellar that you seem to buy just a congregate in the areas so i do understand what you're coming for with the the old high strength drinkers in the brown paper bags sitting down it has sort of evolved but yeah there is still other types of street drinkers that we do find that do congregate outside shops but when we use the expression street drinkers there's there's a perception that it kind of applies or refers to homeless people who just have that one can and then cause anti-social behavior but of course it could apply to anybody that buys a drink and drinks in the street couldn't it so not but not everybody creates anti-social behavior as a result of doing that would you agree with that i do agree with that um however because this is a residential area in a side street rather than being on a high street if it was quite until two o'clock in the morning then it would be a possible increase on issues and noise and loosens from um people hanging around shops i don't think this is an unfair question to ask but my client's sort mr mckendron's shop is about 20 yards from the shop that has a license till two o'clock in the morning you've confirmed for the licensing subcommittee that there's been no issues as a result of the new hours granted to my client in april which includes one o'clock in the morning on a friday and a saturday could you say whether there's been any actual complaints made in respect of the other shop because they're open until two o'clock in the morning i'm honest on this application i've already looked at your client's shop but you will be aware if you've had any other complaints of other shops in the area to my knowledge we haven't had any i haven't had any thank you thank you you've lived in back zones as details in the licensing policy of large as such there is a requirement to comprehensive dental support for the additional impact of local air in terms of the objectives the applications for haven't been any complaints about noise anti-social behavior in relation to this premises past six months the applicant is not proposing the additional measures to prevent public conditions the premises is located in the pre-common residential area i have booked out with two other premises off which is two three within the 200 meters i'm concerned that around sales of spirits and 20 centimeter bottles to make this premises more attractive to spring drinkers and lead to a difference in spring drinking littering public urination and anti-social behavior somehow late at night and early in the morning at times when other places are closed is also likely to attract similar antisocial behavior lead to an increase in spring drink littering lower visited the area after the cleansing teams had swept the streets there was still evidence of street drinking in the area close to the shop and other offices um that's on behalf of the thank you um few questions uh you make uh you make the statement that the the applicant has not proposed any additional measures to prevent public nuisance i mean they have actually got a fairly fairly robust conditions i think at 31 there so what other measures might you want them to uh consider or is it a question of whether they are actually actually adhering to those conditions well there's there's clearly a problem with street drinking in the area would be any conditions really that could address that prevent prevent that from thing um which you know it's up to them because they're in the community impact zone it's up to them to show that they're not going to cause any impact on the local area and i don't think they've necessarily demonstrated that thank you um couple of other things um princess is should have bottle marking and i don't know if that's been checked but i wondered whether any of these bottles of good visor marked or which was sorry Budweiser but that was marked for a different store that was marked with Thor on on station on station parade yes um but having said that when i visited premises on the 5th of september they were labeling particularly being labeled on the top of the bottles on the cap obviously when they take the cap off that gets separated so um that's they're complying with the condition but not complying with what's intended by the convention no quiet thank you um and two more things i had to ask um one was regarding the um the two cans this is in two bottles because they've requested that 500 liters let's try again 500 centimeters um should be so singly what is the lowest denomination that you would accept as a single sale of the beers um the the lowest volume volume yes um well i'm yeah i mean we don't i haven't noticed it myself that the larger the 500 ml cans in amongst everything you find from speed drinks i think the next lowest one is 350 i'm not sure there's anything in between that's the size can which we which we regularly find this Budweiser is that 660 well that's that's bottles um yeah i mean they're not proposing to they're still maintaining to sell those in twos i believe no they have requested no i think it's only above 500 mils they're requesting single single bottles six years now the Budweiser they're showing is not 500 mils it's just right it's a smaller one so 500 mils would be acceptable as a single well it's not something i've yeah i've got any evidence to say this is the problem with the other things it's uh we do regularly find those um disposed of on the street street drinkers okay and the question of our sir uh um steve as well uh given that uh massila has eight 2am already uh how do you gauge the additional impact this will extending this license for 2am would have on the area um it's a quiet residential area um presumably they're going to attract they're doing this to attract more customers to the area and that's potentially for more noise more anti-social bag and in those early hours of the morning it would be there um there's not a lot of so thank you very much i've just talked to you i'll catch you name right one day thank you um yes i'm really you've sort of suggested that you pick up or you spot the empty bottles of less than 20cl when it spirits the strength this is does that suggest the 35cl ones you're not finding on the street uh you do do see 35cl but not as often as the 20cl but the 20 isn't the more the 20cl and the smaller the miniatures thank you um i think that's just the only question that the chairs already aren't putting the questions to that was to use yeah in the last six months does that then mean that they were previously they were anti-social behavior no i don't i don't think i've ever had any when we usually we usually when we do our reports look at six months but i don't remember having having received any complaints so it's just dependent on the extension of the hours that that's likely to happen is that what you're saying um that we're likely to get more complaints yeah i mean we don't get a lot of complaints about issues of noise um people in a lot of people don't know how to complain about noise lots of people don't know whether they want to complain about how to access council services doesn't necessarily mean that the problems of noise they're not being affected by problems and norms right and down further down another paragraph you talked about streets was through evidence of street drinking in the area close to the shop well i've included some photographs and this is after cleansing had been of various pans bottles discarded none of them particularly high strength on clinton's road which is discarded in a in the usual um black plastic bag where a bottle left against the tree that's on altmore avenue a bottle of corona empty bottle of carl's bird which will just be put in the street guard a lot more influence so there must actually have been just further down the road so they could have disposed of that um in a um in a more satisfactory manner okay thank you very much so definitely evidence even even after the street cleaners have been there thank you any yes please if i make through you champs um so photographs or several photographs showing alcohol products discarded um is there any evidence whatsoever to attribute any of that to the premises that we're talking about today and i believe clement street is two roads down um and we've got these four shops we've heard earlier within very close proximity so basically in yours what you've produced this photograph of littering would you agree it's litter yeah it's littering it's littering but nothing that can be attributed to my client's shop no my client has hours now where he doesn't have to close until midnight during the week one o'clock on a friday and a saturday are you really suggesting that those extended hours that were being applied for is going to lead to an increase in that littering and if so do you have any evidence to support that well presumably your client's hoping to sell more alcohol at those times so there is a potential that um if your if the customers are not responsible then it will lead to an increase in their treatment it's not just alcohol that would be sold though is it there's other it's a convenience store there's other convenience products that will be sold along with alcohol okay would you agree yes but it's still you know we're not finding the evidence of the other products and just starting on the street it's just the the evidence of the alcohol and it's the cans the bottle littering is a general problem it's not just because it's alcohol products it's a litter problem it's a litter problem but it's also um it's people consuming the alcohol on the street rather than taking it home and then disposing of the rubbish in an anti-social manner you've given the license in subcommittee your opinion on what could happen but there's nothing to say that it will happen would you agree with that statement um well it's very difficult to get evidence before the fact isn't it you know um this is my this is my judgment on what potentially could happen and i presume that you work with the other authorities in respect of in part a partnership approach to dealing with premises tackling premises and you've heard steve say in his representation that if there becomes evidence that issues are arising then they can take further enforcement action as a result is that not an approach that you would take for your department as well yes but we wouldn't want to create a problem and then we have to deal with it we'd rather prevent the problem in the first place okay thank you chair i've got no further questions to ask mr mcconnell thank you thank you can you like pass david uh no i'll wait for my representation all right right then it is your turn to present thank you uh usually i sit for the very first very first time in nearly 20 years on this it's unusual but it does happen actually with residents so it's not the first time for that um a few times a year um our representations can be found at page 37 of a couple of those some of that questioning we just had around well there's other premises around how can you attribute where's your evidence that identify the premises is an argument against themselves that's the whole point of giving them facts is that you you have a number of shots in an area and you can't identify it because of the effect of a number of premises in an area littering or discarding or street drinking and you can't attribute it to anyone but it's got to a point where there's a cumulative impact and you should have no more i mean that is a cumulative impact and your council this year would have had to go through a very torturous process to be satisfied that the cumulative impact policy is law foreign in place so the starting position is that your own council has its own policy for its own evidence that there is a cumulative impact in this area that's the starting point there's there's the evidence for you we don't have to go behind that because that's accepted by the local authorities not being challenged by judicial view that policy is there so now the burden shifts not on us it's not for us to to to show that point it's for this gentleman to the evidence why the tree in the street in the area won't happen as a consequence of their operation so position being uh at the moment there are conditions on the license that need to be addicted obviously some conditions aren't being edited to allegedly by the the license authority the position from the residents the two residents there were actually three but one dropped off because um that through the minor variation they had people knocking on their door and which obviously wasn't appropriate so they didn't want to join so uh two residents that's why there's no address is given but it's been given to the council and that's why they don't sit here so for one of people knocking on their door but to get that aside for a minute that i'm here and i can make representations on their behalf and i'll do my best with their instructions of course at the moment we don't know whether the alcohol is lockable whether it can be locked out of ours and the residents say there are still um issues with signs being about street drinking condition 26 25 challenge 25 sorry condition 28 but these are masses of accounts but what we're saying is that the current license is not working and with evidence because if you think about which you've got a warning in February you've got the new application which would have come i'm sure with advice that they need to adhere to conditions and probably assurances the committee will probably assured passing order new uh operator will be complying what are the photographs a paragraph that one that's two lines yeah after that here come on there turn up again people drinking on page 41 drinking and there's 40th birth and it's like you know that's that's called street drinking right now in whatever description the gentleman wants to make the film about what is or what is the street drinker there it is in july this year all just rocking upside the shop drinking um and then there is three drinking drinking outside and the residents haven't lived experience that's what they're living with them and they don't want any more i'd like you to take the hour back but we don't ask that but we don't want any more in relation to the um where's your evidence scenario um which is quite an interesting or telling point it is impossible impossible for the residents or the council to provide evidence of saying that hasn't happened we can't do that and and that is a question we can't answer and it's almost pointless but what we can say is well not in july people sitting outside having a picnic drinking whatever you want to describe that well why isn't that being managed why isn't the person in the shop saying sorry guys you can purchase the those goods here but you can't consume them here you know disperse go um and so we can at least point to some of the issues that have arisen very recently and say well that may be an indicator what we may have going forward but that's a property that in relation to the conditions aren't being asked to be removed because i think the question is one o'clock and two o'clock well we're not just talking about that we're talking about during the day as well if condition 9 9 16 are modified that changes the baby during the day and we're concerned about the delay the day during the day for the some of these points that you can see in the photographs and and the lived experience two capture people want it to be forecast we want that condition to be tightened up with the evidence you put today and the first time we want that to remain that in for example you decide there are 35 that will go to wednesday well then that opens the door i say for the residents say well we insist then increase the two cancers don't allow anything more or if you do allow the 20c then you have a condition they must be a personalized person all times because if there was a personal license holding person i'm sure they could have managed that outside drinking yeah so you can actually add and i asked the question earlier on this morning can you add conditions you can in fact you can make this license more onerous those additional conditions they've made the application vary it's up to the committee decide if you allow for example the 20c later then you can also match that saying well i'm going to allow that but you've got to have a personalized person at all times so i'm arguing now so the gentleman can can argue back with that that's a good proposition or not but we have we have issues where that there really ought to have been a personalized hold of presence or some form of management to have prevented the street drinking and put persons gathering outside not on one occasion on two occasions at least and we say that that is more frequent but it's important to go and get that type of photograph sorts of risk um and you wouldn't expect persons to be doing that exercise um the labeling well you can have different bottle markings whether it mark it's the container or the uh or marks it or you use a uv pen so the uv pen everything has to be marked with a uv pen the local authority can give them a code that's not known to anyone else and they can put that code on the bottle and then when the officers go around they can scan it to see if it's done from that shop and you can't remove it then at least there's some more uh better because if you stick a label on the top if you screw it off or pop it off or you just um uv pen you can't do that you can't remove it off and the officers can go in when they're checking to check that it's got a uv uh a uv mark um perhaps the cctv outside needs to be improved so that there's a monitor inside so if someone's working inside completely oblivious that there's a gathering outside that may be an update to the cctv i haven't looked at the conditions and whether that is uh that's possible uh now we've said that there's a break from the past the future and i assume that was that said by the applicant because there is some past that they want to break from i don't know that i haven't gone into the history of that but i would ask through you chair when you do get to the app and ask if there's been a an assignment for the lease or a new lease because normally that is a true break because it normally has to be done if it's a lease of more than seven years has to be registered the land registry stamp duty needs to be paid normally a solicitor is involved with landing rights so it hasn't been an assignment which means a transfer in effect or as there's been a new lease so that we can see that if we are being told that this gentleman there's no connection to the past which i'll have to accept on face value then that wipes all that pass out and he stands here on his own but it's not a complete um pretty picture because of the warning in february and the lived experience by the residents in july this year and throughout so from the residents point of view we say that there should be no granting of this license there is a kind of impact um we've not heard nothing not we have not heard anything changes that position the burden is on them we have provided some evidence for the lived experience and that there is a problem in the area of street drinking and the people are going to be attracted also to these premises it could i can't comment about other premises but i know that that's for them but because someone has a license because we don't interrogate their systems we don't know how they're operating it might be that they've got personal license it might be that they're managing it better i don't possibly comment there might be a number of reasons but as you've heard i think from your officers some members of the public don't know how to complain to complain and language and all that becomes an issue because there's no complaints doesn't mean there isn't a complaint but i'm not going down that road because i don't have the evidence there but i but my two residents that i act for say they're lifting for their problems here street drinking from this shop and they want it stopped until that's done there should be no furtherance or improvement on this license in fact they would like it to be stronger stronger better managed adherence to the current and the spirit of the act that there should be no street drinking or sales or on sales in effect drinking outside unless i can assist you further that's representation by half the residents thank you very much um the first question i want to ask you is more or less the one that you said you can't answer um but considering that the concerns very very particularly aren't they about strengths of alcohol the um percentage the um 35 20 centimeter spirits and so on presumably your residents will have concerns about all these shops and especially those which actually have got at the moment what i'd say less robust conditions you know that are selling the stronger beer and the stronger stats so is it is it a sort of a a comment about all those shops there or is it very specifically targeting one the answer to that question is that the residents are concerned of the cumulative effect in the area which is evidenced by the policy and that the residents are concerned this application and this application on its own merits and what's going on around this shop yes by the photographs and their lived experience so what happens elsewhere so it will be a matter that the regulators or whatever they're not applying that they may be historic people move in people move out i'm not suggesting how long the residents have been here but they've seen this application they're not happy with the application they're not happy how it's currently being managed and worked and so that we're not trying to compare what's going on along the road we're saying this one on its own merits burdens on them this is our lived experience of problems here's a key impact here's our evidence what we've got please don't change it in fact we'd like them to adhere to what they've got not have more and i think that's the answer and get some undesired addition to what's going on yeah it's not only the hour but it's that during that day moving these conditions i would i would say i think the real concern is these moving these conditions more than the hour because i i well i think they're both but i think if you had to prioritize it it is these conditions we do not want to do that because the street drinking during the day is causing us a problem yes and we don't want that and obviously you can't be going out taking photographs in the evening it would be a bit more obvious so it the residents are very concerned about the street drinking um let me ask you if in your experience because i know you're doing this a lot um do the nigerian guinness and dragon south they tend you know to street drinkers as well do they tend to be things that are found on the street the guinness export and cause some difficulty in certain groups now i don't know that area i don't know so i'm giving you an honest answer the others i don't believe do the only issue that you have with those drinks or any strength of drinking you allow the miniatures 20 straight they they top it up yeah so they put it into it yes and make it more um more more appropriate for them um but as you say um as the friend has said that street drinking comes in different forms in fact the street drinker who is normally intoxicated they actually call very little anti-surgical generally other than people don't want them but when you work with them with the mongo the housing all the different charities they actually do quite a lot with people especially at seaside towns because i deal with a lot of clients that have premises in seaside town um generally street drinking can be because it's social they're gathering outside they're flat so they don't have housing or they're renting a room and they gather outside or gather somewhere so street drink has a number of different forms this street drinking mix in the photographs it's very anti-social it's there it's intimidating people don't want it and it shouldn't be allowed shot the licensee should be making sure that does not burn thank you very much um yes thank you chair um but using the pictures of the street drinkers have the witnesses that have any of them sort of suggested the street drinkers i've been hashing them and things that nature is that part of the reason why they're against it because i've been it's not abused but uh um without saying too much to give away the identity one is a family and they find it troublesome to go past you know with with um with their family okay and uh find the question it's an old question to ask really um at one point you said you had three witnesses down to two and i think your opening statement was that one pulled out after a knock on the door which does seem a little strange in your opinion any reason why i was reported to the place i don't want to get okay i think it would be unfair to the area but what i'm trying to say is that give a reason why my presence are not here because of uh during the minor variation which was reported uh there was a bit of door knocking along the street to find out who had made a representation right that it might be that it's unrelated to us and that's why but i'm saying i'm saying why the residents are not here today because they're fearful that same exercise is going to happen again thank you i should be brief to make a representation about someone knocking on their door and i i'm here to represent them that's not a problem i'm not i don't feel intimidated very professional but the thing is of course but the public should be able to make representations without fear of someone knocking on their door thank you any questions thank you chair thank you thank you forgive me mr betts i'm trying to i'm a bit puzzled at the moment here um these photographs my mother's will be taking over through the period to start with and um there's three gentlemen here i think in two of these on page 43 42 and 43 i have to look for this i've got i'm looking at page 42 yes yeah page 42 which um and these were taken on the 21st of july 2024 and looking at the footage at the back of the gentleman on the sitting on the show one would say on photographs sorry i can't take that i've got that right and the photographs were taken on the first of july and on those two pages for 2043 the images of the individual sitting on the floor seemed to be the same people dressed in the same clothing um the background of all this is bottles of drinks and so forth do we know if they're iconic or if there's um well it's a possibility i'm trying to put it before can i just say what what i've been told by residents based on it the the residents have taken a number of this residence taken a couple of it's been photographed subjects divided so that i think it's probably the same time same group i would have thought in relation to the what they're drinking we're being held by the residents they believe that that's alcohol but obviously they haven't gone over them to approach them in those cans are hot you know i can't tell you but um the resident is saying they're sitting out and drinking alcohol and so on the vast probability is the more more likely they're not and that's the test remember the public come along and say look these people here they're drinking alcohol if you disbelieve what they are saying or don't believe it's credible they're on the balance of probability then you will find that it's coca-cola or a non-alcoholic drink that's the matter for you but the residents are telling you um people are outside drinking alcohol street drinking and enough's enough and then it's a matter for you members and first you go to that if you feel that they are um they are um saying what they what the residents say that's for you yeah look at this for us here you could identify anyone taking the type of water but we don't know if they're i commonly or non-items what you do know what are you doing here and i think this is like i think what you do though is that the residents made representation the resident believes that they are alcohol the residents have made those submissions the rest of the representation in 28 days residents the life of the photograph the residents not expecting any more than that that's all they can do you heard earlier on today that you know is anything going to change between one o'clock and two o'clock well the premises is free to open for non-alcoholic sass it can be open if it wants to but then sitting out there the resident believes that they are sitting out there consuming alcohol i can't say anymore that's a lived experience from residents nearby my two residents live close to these premises and they are saying people on the street are drinking alcohol and they are hanging around drinking alcohol and they've got genuine concern it's all we can say well i do understand your position but um someone like me who want a little bit more evidence or it doesn't matter helps you any more than that i the residents can't do any more than that's not for them i mean i expect if the police would you come along and have a look at this i expect the police will because we know they prioritized the um level of threat and priority one two and three will come first please sometimes don't even attend um a burglary or a theft or a low level of things you're not going to attend for that because the prioritization of the system and the resources don't allow it so the reality of it is you're not going to be able to call the police and ask them to come along test it and the chances of um mr hung or mr jackson being able to pop by at the time you know i mean they need that and they'll just fit i don't think they would be approaching each gentleman asking me what they've got i don't think that would be right and it wouldn't be right for the residents either thank you councilor thank you any questions right to us yes please can i want to start by asking who the residents are now at the moment they're hiding behind the a nominee whatever the word is um through their representative personal details can only be held back according to the section with my two guidance in exceptional circumstance is this a question for me sorry therefore i would like to know for no other rig well there is a reason for me asking because i want to show something um i for what reason are you refusing to name the residence mr das well personally i'm not going to use anything um the uh i'm only just asking your question the um the residents are entitled to make a representation they have the full name and addresses license because and thank you for your question um we did a minor variation and uh sorry you did a minor variation and um i was um compacted by a resident who wanted to make an objection there were actually three and one of those residents um had calls to have to call the police because a a gang had actually attended their house knocking them down and the daughter was present saying that um you've raised an objection and threatened the family it was reported to met upon police service and they were very fearful of making further representation so uh and they have spoken to each other they're very fearful of that gang infusing of being in this area and that they're using this shop and that gang has been knocking on the doors warning people off with the raise an objection so thank you for letting me answer that question for you so that's why the names addresses will not be provided to you but have been provided to the council and there is a public record to the police of a report i think it was even based at the council at the time thank you for allowing me to answer that question please don't patronize me um the you said that they raised an objection through you to the minor variation and then received a knock on the door is that correct have i heard that correctly a minor variation was made yeah objections were made on on the objective on the on the i'm asking the question so minor variations made through the public notice representations were made it was then uh objected and refused then there was intimidation knocking on the doors in fact uh one of the one of us we i know through another conversation what one of the names knocked on that didn't even make a representation which was quite quite interesting because at any time they've been knocking on more than more than the doors that made the representation they made an anonymous representation to the minor variation and then received a knock on the door if it was anonymous how would anybody have known that they had made a representation as i've just said they knocked on doors that hadn't even made a representation so richard do you have a question um my question was do you have a comment on the anonymity and my comment section 182 guidance is the licensing authority which is mr coolly 19 year does have the discretion to withhold the details of the person who made representations and uh and then that's what's happened here today of course the question has been asked but when it comes to your deliberation you will then attach appropriate weight to as what's been said today because of course the consequence of having not somebody not here um does put them to a disadvantage because they can't ask the applicant i'm sorry represent the person who's made representation yes so there will be a question of weight but in respect of anonymity the license authority make this decision before the hearing so we have to work on the basis of what's on the papers and it's justified and appropriate yep thank you can can i wanted to beg your pardon no i wanted to thank you chair thank you um you said that's are your clients the people you're representing anything to do with the shop at 101 burgess road no and have no connections with the shop at burgess road i can't answer that i'm afraid i i i know that the two residents i'm acting for our officers spoken to they're raising genuine concerns we've had another one and so we've been dealing with them um their knowledge of the licensing act is impeccable which is very unusual can i take you to the phone sorry sorry i i'm obviously representing them so i'm giving them advice so i'm drafting for them because obviously they i can speak to them and give them advice so that's why the representations are written with them guiding them of what is lawful not lawful they're things that what they wanted to say would not be relevant so they've been removed so there is some advice given and guidance the photographs that you've submitted with the representation that you've made on behalf of residents photographs all appear to have been taken from the same location i would suggest that that location is the shop and burgess road would you agree with that uh i can't tell you the source of the photographs i where they've come from there's no resident and that's the thing is uh i i will say this members i've had this phrase before it's like what about this is what about really what about this photograph from there what about taking from there well actually we're distracting from what does the photograph show uh and if it's the photograph and that the challenging the content of what's being shown fine the where the resident or how the photograph is obtained how it is disclosed is not relevant in in my submission it shows what my residents that i act for have genuine concern about street drinking outside and i want to hear from mr what does he can't say about it you started your presentation of your representation by saying that the conditions on the current license are not being adhered to and yet through the council officers you've heard that they are being complied with they weren't being complied with in february but steve then commented that so far as his way a follow-up visit was carried out and there was compliance so what why why why do you comment that the conditions are not being adhered to other than to muddy waters well firstly the statement that i made was correct that the conditions haven't been there due to because there's the warning letter so that statement is correct and i know that ultimately and i also thank you for asking the question okay and i'm not being baptized now i welcome the question because it allows me to to uh answer but um on the 24th september we know that condition 12 25 26 28 were not complied with the signs for um outside street drinking cctv challenge 25 was still not up no that they're not up because they can see that i won't say i mean because they can pop into the shop so uh we can say that we're confident that the conditions are not being complied with thank you chair i've nothing further to thank you but i'll just return to that last point you made david please um the 24th of september use because is it mentioned here 24 times no no because it's a asked question i was able to answer it right because i wouldn't have been able to give you that information of answers i think it would have been unfair to the applicant right they asked the question i've answered it but this was what though your residents have told you that on the 24th of september the signs were not as much weight as you wish but the residents have said that on the 24th september condition 12 so the signs regarding well sorry let me just say what that one is that's the um from the side it's committed hours not displayed the cctv 25 there's no signs of cctv the street 26 street drinking signs displayed to prevent street drinking not displayed and challenge 25 posts are not up but that's what the residents that's what is being said but obviously they can say differently if they wish in their representation we have considered the discussion thank you sure just before we move on to um the applicant should we um have a five-minute comfort break um i was wondering actually that's okay with everybody just to would people appreciate that i think five minutes is a bit optimistic but maybe ten this is a long it takes let's be should we make it 15 say back here at half at half past clock is slightly long so it's 12 20 to my phone yeah yeah i'll pass eight minutes it's uh thank you everyone for coming um okay now it's over to the license holder applicant thank you thank you chair counselors as we know this is an application to vary the premises license for nks food center on old moor avenue um i was intending to go through the current hours on the license but we've been through that and you also know that the application today seeks to extend the hours for the sale of alcohol from eight in the morning until two o'clock day of the week and therefore the opening hours would be from seven o'clock in the morning until two o'clock in the morning daily it is also requested to amend two of the existing conditions on the premises license i would stress we're not looking to remove them we're looking to amend them we wish to replace the condition that states the miniatures of spirits under 35 centiliters shall not be sold we want to replace that with miniatures of spirits under 20 centiliters shall not be sold and i will explain the ratio now for that in a moment we wish to replace a minimum of two cans or bottles of beer lager cider or stout shall be sold at any one time with a minimum of two now the application says a minimum of two cans or bottles that should really just be bottles it should the amendment should not include cans because a pint tin of lager is 568 milliliters so that would exclude pints um but the as you were talking earlier this morning talking about the bottles from the photographs and the standard bottle standard bottles tend to be 330 mil um so really that condition the request should be really be amended to show that a minimum of two um a minimum of two bottles sorry it will still be a minimum of two cans of bottles of beer should not be sold at any one time but with the exception of bottles of beer lager cider or stout which are 500 mil or over the two conditions which the applicant wishes to amend are primarily on the license in an effort to minimize the availability of cheaper products which tend to be attractive to persons commonly referred to as street drinkers street drinkers seem to prefer beers lagers and ciders which have an alcohol contact content which exceeds six percent there's an existing license condition which states that no beers lagers ciders or stouts which exceeds six percent abv can be sold this condition is not subject to any amendment it is to remain the license the requested amendment to allow the sale of spirits in bottles of 20 centiliters or above rather than the current 35 centiliters or above is made primarily as a result of increased prices in these products the current cost of living crisis is impacting on businesses and the and the general public and more and more people are being priced out of buying spirits as a result a standard bottle of spirits is a 70 centiliter bottle a full bottle is becoming less attractive due to its price so people buy the half bottles the 35 centiliter bottles instead but those prices are also increasing significantly which means more and more people are actually asking to buy the 20 centiliter bottles rather than the 35 centiliter bottles i'm informed that the average price if there is such a thing as an average price because each product is different of course but an average price for a half bottle a 35 centiliter bottle of spirits is roughly nine to ten pounds whereas a 20 centiliter bottle you're looking at between six and seven pounds so it makes it more it makes it more affordable for ordinary people but i would suggest it's still outside the pricing market which our street drinking fraternity would be able to afford now you've heard me mention the shop across the road at 101 this morning that shop is allowed to sell spirits in bottles which are 20 centiliters and therefore the result of this is that Mr Mahendran is losing losing trade and business as a result allowing the applicant to sell allowing Mr Mahendran to sell 20 centiliter or above will level the playing field and give customers the choice of where to make their purchases it's not just the alcohol products where the where Mr Mahendran is disadvantaged customers also buy other products when they're in those shops it's the shopping basket mentality so these sales are also being lost which affects his overall business it is of course fully recognized that sales costs market forces etc are outside the scope of the licensing act and that measures any measures must be relative to the licensing objectives however i do feel it's important to say that if one shop is allowed to sell certain products in certain sizes and by doing so it is deemed that the licensing objectives are not being undermined then why would a more restrictive condition which is what Mr Mahendran has at the moment uh be why should that be on his license he just wants to level the playing field by allowing these conditions to be amended it it it brings parity it's just there those the conditions that we're seeking to be amended are the conditions which are on the shop across the road Mr Mahendran is the applicant he is also the dps the designated premises supervisor for the shop he has 18 years of experience working in licensed shops licensed to sell alcohol he has been a personal license holder in his own right for in excess of 10 years Mr Daz isn't here to ask a question but i can tell you that when Mr Mahendran took over this shop in December 2023 a new lease agreement was drawn up and he has a lease in his own name with no reference or nothing to do with the previous management of those premises since taking over we've heard that he's had visits from the licensing authority and we've heard that the visit in February 2024 did result did result in a non-compliance notice being sent a non-compliance notice which Mr Mahendran addressed immediately there has been another visit since then where full compliance with the license conditions was discovered and in fairness the licensing author when the first variation application was made back in February for this shop which was um when when that application was made the licensing authority did not put in a representation in respect of the breaches and i strongly suspect although we don't know because i understand from steve there was a different licensing officer but there was no representation because there had been compliance with the rep with the breaches and everything seemed to be in order the representation from Mr Daz referred made a lot of reference to the conditions which were imposed on this license following a review and which those conditions were also then reinforced as correct following an appeal to the magistrate's court what Mr Daz's representation fails to mention within the written submission is that that happened in 2017 and 2018 at a time when these premises were operated by somebody other than the applicant today the photographs attached to the representation from Mr Daz are at best in our respectful submission suspect they are dated the 7th of july and the 21st of july the application before you today was not submitted until the 13th of august and yet it was decided to send the photographs from the 7th of july and the 21st of july it is strongly suspected by my client that those photographs have been staged if issues of that nature were occurring on a regular basis as the representation would have you believe then i would suggest there would be more recent photographs showing the continuing nature of the problems or the alleged problems outside this shop but as as it was picked up earlier it's the same people in those photographs all the photographs are taken from exactly the same angle we strongly believe it was from the shop at 101 although there is i'll make it clear there is no evidence there is no evidence to support that but it is all circumstantial but there are several reasons for suspecting that that representation from Mr Daz on behalf of the residents is actually vexatious based on business rivalry rather than any genuine concerns about undermining the licensing objectives let me explain why chair on the 14th of february Mr Mahendran submitted a different variation application to extend his trading hours the store at 101 Burgess road massila stores submitted a variation application themselves on that same day to extend their licensing hours Mr Mahendran's application attracted one representation from a resident who was anonymous that variation application was determined at a hearing on the 10th of april the shop across the road at 101 also applying to extend the hours didn't attract any representations and that license was granted under delegated authority without the need for a hearing i have to ask that if residents have genuine concerns about one shop staying open later then surely they would have had concerns about the shop across the road staying out later as well unless the concern resident making the representation was linked to the other shop not even the responsible authorities raised a representation to either application back in february neither but we are here today with two representations from responsible authorities and a representation apparently on behalf of local residents i would also point out that the concerned resident who made a representation to the first variation application didn't turn up at the hearing i know they don't have to and there could be very good reasons for not turning up claiming he had to go away for a family emergency my client saw him in the street that afternoon so he clearly didn't want to be seen to be making a representation for whatever reason the representations from the responsible authorities environmental health and licensing are what they are um there is there is a comment in mr jackson's representation that he wants the licensing subcommittee to make the decision because of the relatively recent application which was granted to extend hours mr jackson's talks about four months which at the time of writing was probably right but it's now six months um but what i would say and mr jackson has confirmed that today there's been no reported issues as a result of the grant of that license i will give way i know mr behendran wants to address you personally so um if way to questions i'll ask mr behendran to make his submission to thank you very much hi can we speak yes i know though sorry you don't have to stand up unless you want to i know you over represent the local residents he made me look like a very bad person as in like i say in gangs and all that but i'm a father of two kids i'm a businessman i don't need to do those things i'm very clearly saying that to you because it made me look like i'm a bad person and clearly this whole things are happening because of one shop opposite 101 he doesn't want to sell whatever selling him he doesn't want to sell so that's why he's clearly doing it because if the residents if they really got a problem my shop is making that many noises or public noises and is armed to the public they should not report being going to the council like regular basis but whenever i only apply for something there's always complaint coming until that there's no complaint when i've done the minor variation there's someone will come and complain it when i done for the full variation and they come in and complaining to be honest this is clearly from the in front of the shop guy he is doing he must have paid quite a lot of money to the solister to come and represent if he's a genuine person he doesn't need a solicitor he will come and tell the committee this is a problem causing the problem this shop is being regular basis they having a problem don't give license or anything that's all i want to say thank you thank you um i would say there is obviously no evidence evidence to link the shop across the road to this application or the people but making representations um but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence which may point one way or the other but obviously you will be advised to attach as little or as much weight to to those arguments as you did fit um but i will say mr mahindran has lived in this area this local area for many many years he knows many many people the the rumor the rumor mill works um etc so and and he's not a man we we ask you to grant its application today in order to bring parity between the two premises to give the customers a freedom of choice um what you don't get you don't get a customer going into one shop to buy a 20 centimeter bottle of spirits and then go walk across the road to do the rest of their shopping people tend to want to do things all in the same hit and please as i alluded to earlier with mr mcconnell it's not just a license to sell alcohol alcohol are part of the offerings of this shop um it's not just enough license per se like back in the day when we used to have victoria wine shops for example which were wall to wall banks and you can go and buy nappies and medicines and breads and milks in this shop and people buy that throughout the day as well but obviously it's the it's the alcohol that seems to bring bring um more concern amongst people because they have this thing that as soon as you buy alcohol in a shop you immediately go outside you stand in the street and you drink it those photographs would have you believe that but what those photographs didn't show you was that mr mahindran and his staff if they witness anything like that happening they leave the shop and they go and ask people to move ask them not to sit down and they ask them not to drink having people say outside your shop is not good for business it's not going to bring business and that's why we say that those photographs are a little bit i think there's a little bit more to them we both think there's a little bit more to those that meet the eye um so that is the reason for the application it's basically level playing field we don't believe that allowing these amendments would undermine the licensing objectives not at all not at all if anything we think they promote the license objectives and as you heard mr jackson say if they if issues do arise as a result there is always that safety net of taking further enforcement action there's the safety net of the review procedure although i will strongly suspect that the authorities will want to try and work with the premises first and make suggestions before ever going down that road which is possibly probably the right way the right cause of action but you've heard there's no complaints no complaints of noise from these premises we've had no allegations no issues in the last six months since this license was granted and therefore why why then would we suspect that there would be issues as a result of you granting today's application that is the application chair thank you thank you right can i ask you first um i don't mind in this case who answers um when you made the application in april for midnight for four five days and 1 a.m for two days um and for starting at nine wasn't it um why did you not make uh go for 8 a.m to 2 a.m then yeah yeah i think because he was seeking yes he was seeking parity with the shop across the road which we believe at the time had those hours that we applied for in february i had after when we applied only we know they got the license onto two o'clock before they had the same time whatever time i have so across the road they had the same timing for selling alcohol so by making the application in february mr mehendra was trying to align his license with the same times as the shop across the road but of course what wasn't known at the time is that the shop across the road on c in this application made their own application in order to extend their hours as well right so when the licenses both licenses were granted um the one at 101 had longer trading hours than mr mehendra's so so if the shop across the road now applies for 24-hour license are you going to apply for the 24-hour license a little mission creeper i think i think that's a very very fair question i really do but as you heard mr mehendran say he's a family man he has a wife he has two children um i don't think well there's not many places anywhere where you would get a 24-hour license now and i base that on my experience as a consultant working across the country um certain areas you might be lucky um but certainly the advice i give all of my clients is don't bother do you see this as the the end of the road in terms of hours yeah even if i get this license this hours but i'm gonna keep closing at 12 o'clock and friday sad it's going to be one o'clock even if i get the license until two o'clock yeah but i'm willing to close it at 12 and one only like i want to open it like during the you know the bank holidays and you know new year day christmas time probably opening a long office i think what people tend to say is that they get a license for 80 or two for example but they they they may well close earlier than their license allows that normally affords an applicant or a license holder flexibility to operate and to open for longer say for things like christmas new year bank holiday weekends etc if there was a certain event or certain something happening in the area at a time it gives the flexibility to be able to open for longer without breaching any license right um okay so at the moment you are open at the weekends on or friday and saturday until one what sort of custom do you get in those later hours was it 11 11 30 before wasn't it i think at the weekend um so what sort of extra custom do you get between the 11 and the one the late night shift late shift and they come and buy the groceries and some of them buy alcohol because the way the shop uh situated right now is loads of students are living there so loads of students live in there so when they go into the like part-time job or when they finish a job they come late and when they come they buy the groceries at the same time some of them buy alcohol so you get two or three four or five handful of customers in that time or i think depends on like probably friday saturday you get it quite um quite a lot but uh during the week time it was okay and and what would you be anticipating uh if you're open until two if you do say up until two those nights i mean we make sure we don't sell to any street drinkers oh whoever yeah whoever comes like too much drunk do you see that you would get a lot more custom between one and two yes that was what i was thank you yeah one or two probably that weekends or getting more customers and uh weekdays probably quite we are we get customers so worth your while to keep the shop open and keep staff there i think mark said before to dictate that doesn't it sorry market forces tend to dictate where if the demand is there then obviously he would be able to open but if there was no demand he would close early yeah yeah and and at the moment you're you think the demand will not be so great until two is that what you're thinking just wondering what your idea of how many sales you would do if you were still open to two i think i think what he was saying is at the weekends until two he would he could see the trade continuing but maybe during the week it may not be as uh as beneficial and one more question before i pass on to my colleagues um what is the percentage overall of of well both of stock alcohol and other groceries and percentage of sales which is probably similar how does it work out we've got like more groceries compared to alcohol we all say like more like 70% groceries 30 is enough right i would have said it was less than that but i don't know and just top quotes out much like that as well sorry i visited the shop a couple of times i was i think 30 has been a bit over over exaggerated but without actually taking a proper measurement it's very difficult for the naked eye to assess percentages but it's quite a large shop and there's a lot of food stuff all right uh i'll leave it for myself a moment and sure thank you chair okay yeah hi um what hours are you actually on the premises yourself i think we got an average yeah in a working week what else we sell is it yeah not i was a you obviously you actually do they're not other staff but yourself oh me yes thank you probably like eight hours every day every day every day that's normal standard is that sort of eight o'clock in the morning you start it depends like if i go cash and get rid they're not coming but stay in the night time so you sort of know i'm catching girl yeah they sort of work a set pattern you're going at a particular time you may be going to excuse me to the cash and carry but once you once you get to a certain time of day that's your day done what sort of day time do you normally finish um depends there's no time limit okay just as an average i'll probably finish sometimes if you have to stay until later i'll stay until like one o'clock friday side days no more time it was 12 o'clock thank you how many stuff do you have three staff right all three of them they got their personal license and i've got the training book so they'll ask you that question actually thank you i've got the training book i trained them to make sure like everything and recently i've been installed another tv screen for the just for the outside cameras identify any street drinkers are there so when you're day when you go and tell them don't drink it outside or if you drink it we don't want to save you second time watch yourself and so that your new cctv is focusing on yeah i've got the difference now as in is four brilliant good um one thing that did bother me slightly um it was sort of suggested that the bottle the markings on i'll assume bottles are being right there the pole thing on a metal cane that the markings was done on the top of the bottle rather than the side of it basically this is this this is my new license i think like we got the show so that's what all license we had it so this is new to this license so when even the first time we see came only i realized there's more things i went through it ready everything so the bottle marking was even the from the previous owner they kept it on the top so i just carried and i've been when he visited also like it was there uh he didn't mention the way to put the sticker thing okay but if he has have to be put it on the bottle i'm willing to do it okay thank you final question is um what are the four licensing objectives sorry what are the four licensing objectives thank you the children's army and the public notions uh public safety and crime and disorder thank you did can i just say i hear that licensing subcommittee is it's not a question i necessarily agree with but it's the first person that i think has ever answered it no comment thank you that's my final question can i just pop back to the bottom marking before i move over there why would you have bottle and can mark to identify the street drinkers like if they drink it outside drop it somewhere then if they know like the officers they know like okay that evidence that you've sold to street drinkers yeah right so what are you what are you going to do about the the marking so far because it's not very prominent previously when i took over the shop they had a bottle marking on the top top of the lid yeah um not all of them we put it some of the cans we put it on the side yeah but some of them on the top of the lid uh but i didn't know it was they have to be particularly have to be on the like side of the bottle or something like that i don't know it's not to be something that's not easily removable isn't it yeah um yeah on the top is like more this something you're addressing now i think it would be useful for uh guidance to be sought from from from yourself yes there somebody asking yeah from licensing yeah and well you can you can gauge me some hendry's is willing to yeah to adapt according to need i will say from a personal point of view i'm not sure that bottle marking actually achieves anything it shows where a bottle was bought from but it doesn't show who bought it who they gave it to afterwards blah blah blah it's very it's an indicator it can be an indicator but in terms of evidential and i refer back to my previous life evidentially it would never stand up in a court of law which but it's an indicator and it helps it helps the authorities to paint the picture rather than rather than offer any absolute evidence okay can i ask how long is since you took the business uh from december uh 2023 december right okay last year yeah last year and were you in that type of business before yes yes he's he's worked in licensed shop selling alcohol for 18 years and has a personal license for over 10 years um i want to you might think that i'm um spending too much time on these photographs that are in the the document here what is your view on the photograph probably if they've dreamed it outside they just taking a picture probably they didn't probably they didn't they didn't show like my work or me going to telling them let the picture show if that happened always my thoughts goes and outside outside you guys we had a refusal book regarding the street drinkers when we find the street drinkers we say like no we can't say please so therefore i think um you sell cans of drinks separately like singles i think we sell um no two minimum minimum of two minimum two and uh in your presentation earlier yourself and what you do but we have a wife yeah so you have more time for what the yeah what did you mean by that i think i mean by they thinking i'm like the why he showed to me that someone who do like a real gangster or someone okay but i'm saying as i'm a family guy i'm a businessman i'll follow the law so i wouldn't even do that and i don't know why they're coming up like uh if if that really happened i would have been in trouble right now mr henry told me that when and that point was being made by mr dadds he felt that it was casting aspersions on his character making him out to be well he must have gone knocking on doors or he got a group of people to go knocking on doors and during the break he told me that's not what i do i'm very law abiding respect the law you can't do that you can't do that um and and he just he felt he felt affronted by what was being said and that's why he wanted to make it clear to you that look i'm a family man wife children thank you very much thank you um right finally from me uh what is your experience and your perception of street drinking in the area the vicinity of your shop and then i'll say how do you manage but your perception first does it happen your experience as in it used to be happened when like i think two three years back there's a lot of street drinkers because abroad i've been near them so i know i live in fifty one fronton road so i know when i walk in walk around i see loads of street drinkers and that but now it's cut down there's not that many street drinkers or anything and undertone in this shop especially we're not selling anything attractive to the street drinkers street drinkers they especially like this one of the beers a lot um over seven percentage seven point five percentage strong beers they like this outsiders the blackstrom carpentry those kind of thing they that's how their street drinkers like it they what i have right now here is it's not attractive to street drinkers and um they do like to top up with the spirits don't they as in this sorry they do like to top up their beers with the spirits um i've never seen it like that i've got to say that's not my experience i see an awful lot of i see an awful lot of not necessarily new new but across the country um eastern european young men and they love the miniatures and they they they to the naked eye they're drinking red bull but if you watch them carefully they're pouring from furniture in red bull but i've never seen that with street drinkers because again it's my experience and i you know i beg to be born out or refuted um they tend to just buy one can of drink a day if they can because it tops up it tops up their alcohol levels and it it's all it's a dependency it it gets them to where they need to be without that they can sort of they behave in a way which is not not normal if you like it's like a cold turkey type effect um if i could use that phrase without being classified um but but i i used to refer to i've done a lot of work with street drinkers in my former role and they they like to have their fix for the day it's almost it's also my understanding that street drinkers are often in shelters by seven or eight o'clock at night and if they're not in a shelter they don't get a bed for the night which is surprises me why these the later hours that are being applied for why why we believe street drinking at that time of night is an issue and of course i'm referring to street drinking as in the homeless people that need help and support um that's that's where the issues really are not in the in the tin of carpacchi or a super strength you know there's a lot of help that they need um if only if only and thank you and do you do get um street drinkers dubious drinkers in the shop regular basis what do they come in and is it not really how often might you see one i hope probably see i don't get those kind of street drinkers probably like one of them probably open up outside and drinking and when we tell them like not to drink only like monthly like two three times we just tell them not to drink outside and they just they just probably finish the work on the way coming they just take it not not like a proper street drink as someone who continuously drinking urinating coming back keep drinking i don't see those kind of street drinkers and and the ones that you do see the that might drink outside how do you how do you deal with them how do i how do you manage them how do you deal with them oh we go and tell them so if you keep drinking we won't save you next time when you come to a shop we won't save your alcohol we go refuse i'll go in a book so but we don't get that many street drinkers that like that like we only get like monthly one or two people that's it yeah okay and we've got four here haven't forth here haven't we reverting to this photograph from page 42 and 43 don't look as if these uh gentlemen outside your shop however this was arranged um do you have any awareness of this happening have you known it to happen what would you do what do you do about it huge question i know you're i i understood what you said about that that um nevertheless if we if we take this as a bona fide photograph picture of them sitting there so i think i know about how regular is that oh no how'd you pass i don't know um i know this picture looks very bad it looked very bad were you aware of this happening um i think my worker this day happened i think they were he went and told them like moved the place they moved when they was moving only after they both took another picture and they moved down and moving and they took another picture that's why new partnership like oh there's two three pictures it's the same picture because i see this is not bad is bad on my other customers there is a family people come to my shop and kids come to my show so when they see like people drinking outside i'm losing all those customers i'm not dependent on just the alcohol so i want other customers to come into my shop so that's why i said i got more gross away like yeah i want to i want like sell more more grocery and this opposite shop when they got this 20 ceo not the alcoholics my regular customers when they buy and they are asking like oh have you got less than 35 co and they don't only buy alcohol they buy groceries items and they see like oh opposite guy she's selling it so when they do when they go there and they don't come back to me to just buy the grocery they just buy the 20 ceo and they buy all the groceries that shop and they will go so that's clearly impacted my business yeah it's literally it's not far away from the shop it's literally opposite shop yes they got the easy option it's like where they want a shopping there are photographs in the pack aren't there that show the two shops in the same photo no no yeah and we think it's on the screen now i think they're i think i'm watching the screen so this is the shop uh what in question today and works oh i just think this is good okay so that that's the shopping question we're dealing with today and if i spin it around so it's a little bit slow um so that's the shop talking about today and that's the other shop that opposite so literally opposite each other the one with the police car outside the police can you zoom into 185 please can you just zoom into 185 a little bit more like five oh it is that one isn't it this is 185 this one we're dealing with the one we're dealing with today yes so that that's it there but it's it's not like that now it's changed this is the rubbish as well as that's gone from march 22 hope so from march 22 this picture's taken yeah two years ago over two years right yeah and taken under the other management you weren't there then yeah but it just gives you an idea of the proximity of what we're talking about yes and then uh that's that's the other shop that that's 101 that's 101 yeah and then that's i'm so sorry so slow and then this one that hasn't got a license that one i think that's a butcher's isn't it yeah that's which um and then you've got the other shop yes which is there yes yorker yep and then you've got another shop which is we've alluded to in the um in the uh pack which is just there so oh it's really there yeah they've got the tenor so there's there's four premises with an alcohol license all within about what not even 50 meters from each other so there's the sorry that's the other and can i just to my last question then on the i don't think you covered it exactly on the nigerian guinness and dragon stout why would you want to be selling that at 7.5 yeah yeah it was applied for because they wanted the license conditions to be consistent at parity with the shop across the road but even i'm happy happy to take that take that away it's happy it doesn't see that as a big market leader and you haven't had a particular demand for it no not for that but you do get to demand for um 20 yeah 20 sales yeah yeah since he's got it then i had a demanded before that we all had like everyone had a 35 yeah they don't need to go to that shop and buy okay but since he's got 20 CEOs of people have the option to go there and buy the thing i'm more consider about like my other business other like my other business sales as well not just the alcohol so it will sometime impact my other cells and these single bottles at 500 here how you how do you feel this um i'm thinking in packs of two yeah um just trying to find it here chair um we're looking to at the moment the condition says a minimum of two cans or or bottles of beer lager cider or stout shall be sold at any one time yeah we're looking to replace at the at the moment what that condition means um you you sometimes get these two liter bottles of cider two liter two liter bottles of cider two thousand centiliters that condition means that you can't just sell one of those you've got to sell two oh right which makes a little bit of a joke when it comes to responsible drinking messages so by by suggesting that the with the to have that condition with the exception of bottles which are over 500 mil that means if they wanted a if they wanted a the corona that was pictured in mcconnell's rev they'd have to buy two of those but if they wanted the two liter bottle of cider by amending that condition it means they could actually just be sold the one yeah could it just be um for one liter you know and not but they tend to package them in two liters for some reason i think they do do one lead of course don't they but they tend to be packaged as two or more commonly packaged as two and then you've also got the safety net of course no matter what the size over 500 it still can't exceed six percent volume and that's largely because these two liter bottles there's a cider called white lightning or scrumpy jacks they tend to be more than six and they're very attractive to the street drinking fraternity um well they can't stop these anyway because of the existing condition nothing the six percent complicated isn't it thank you am i hungry to any questions nobody got any questions but just for clarity and you made a point about the labeling it is a condition already on this license yes um and from the officer's report there was no issues where the lights were placed um and as mr fender correctly responded anyone could easily pick up a label after their purchase as well so but that is already a condition on that license so were we minded that would be well it would need to be clarified um is that right as i said it can easily be peeled off no matter what anyway anyway on account so that's not really concerned from the license it does help us identify where alcohol is being purchased um so that is the only really good thing from our point of view um so obviously we're doing inspections speaking okay the area of what shop it's coming from um and the other just the clarity one was again just for the april um variation which was for the times and i believe the conditions were actually conditions that were agreed with the metropolitan police at that time and that was sent around to responsible properties and that's why therefore there was no other representation yes thank you all right do you have any brief no more no question for me do you have a brief concluding statement um the risk of going through absolutely everything again which you'll be pleased to know that i won't i think i think um all it it would be remiss of me not to just make a couple of points very briefly um yes the license was extended in april and we've we're now in october no reported issues confirmed by the responsible authorities no reported complaints confirmed by the responsible authorities also very significantly and i know this was picked up earlier by yourselves no representation from the police and the reason i think that's significant is because when a premises are located in a cumulative impact zone like this is there's you it's very rare that the police don't make a representation because it's quite often the police are asked for the cumulative impact zones in the first place and so they make a representation to support their own their own requests and to support local policies which is very understandable um i've come back to the comment in mr jackson's representation because of the the short passage of time or the apparent short passage of time since the last variation was granted um that wanted the subcommittee to make the decision on whether this application could be granted as well i would respectfully submit that um the residents residents um i know i alluded earlier to their their knowledge of licensing law being impeccable um it's you never get residents asking for commit asking for conditions are here it's not in that way it never happens unless that's fed into them um we do strongly suspect albeit there is a there is a lack of evidence and i fully understand that but this representation on behalf of the residents is actually vexatious based on business rivalry rather than a genuine concern for undermining the license and objectives and you will apportion as much weight to that representation in the same way that you will apportion as much weight to the thing that you've heard from from this side of the table as well but we do ask you to grant the application as as applied for with that slight amendment that the 500 mil should only apply to bottles and not to cans as per the application thank you chair thank you all right so we shall now adjourn to deliberate and we'll call you back when we're ready it could be over half an hour that may be not very much welcome back we've reached a decision and i shall ask the clerk to read it out having heard all submissions written and all including those of the residents the license things that committee have decided to allow the variation to the extent that one bears lagers stouts and ciders shall be sold in quantities of two with the exception of bottles over 500 cl or over and not exceeding six percent avb two bear lager stouts and cider sold at the premises shall not exceed six percent avb alcohol by volume with the exception of nigeria and guinness and dragon stouts at seven point five percent avb the committee have allowed the premises lines of hours to increase on fridays saturday and bank holidays to 2 a.m there will be further two further conditions as it's on the license the first to ensure that a personal license holder is on the premises during the license for hours and the second that lots of markets are in accordance with the chancellor's license machines approval and details of these conditions will be specified in the decision letter before we see the decision letter with reasons will be sent to the applicant within five working days thank you thank you um as a clerk said you'll hear within five working days those who have taken part in this hearing may appeal against the decision to the magistrate's court within 21 days so just to clarify the 20 centiliters that's been asked for the amendment that's not been granted and then you'll you'll get you'll get the reasons for it within the decision letter okay okay yeah and thank you everyone for your time um i declare this meeting closed thank you