Transcript

Good morning, everyone. This is a meeting of the Licensing Act 2003 subcommittee of the London Bar of Newham for a review of the premises license for K Viva, 14 by West Ham Lane, Stratford E 15 4 PH. Please note that this meeting recording will be available after the meeting on the council's YouTube channel. In accordance with the members code of conduct, the three councils on the committee today are required to declare any relevant interests on any matter being considered at this meeting. I have no interest to declare Council Lofthaus. I have no interest to declare. I have no interest to declare. I will now move on to introductions. My name is Councillor Tony Wilson. I represent Beckton Ward and I'll be chairing this meeting throughout. Good morning, Councillor Jane Lofthaus representing Plastow Street. Good morning, Councillor Simon Wright representing Plastow West in Canningtown East. Police officer. Colin London Bar of Newham. I'm the case officer for today's hearing. Because it's a review, we will ask you the then. Hi, my name is David Mills. I'm the representative of our local residents association. Thank you very much. And my name is Alice Tu. I'm one of the residents in Tepelcrows. That's fine. Thank you, Steve. Steve Jackson, the Licensing Enforcement. Thank you. Thank you. Please start with the licensing. Please observe your name. Okay, thank you. I'm briefly going to run through the procedure of this meeting. The licensing case officer will present their report. We then move to representations from responsible authorities, for example, police tracing standards, environmental health. Members can seek clarification and so can the applicant or their representatives on this matter. We have representation today from the residents and the Council's licensing team in support of the review application. So before I go any further, would you like to introduce yourselves, please? Good morning. My name is Vivian, good morning. Lovely. And yourself? I'm Donovan. Okay, Donovan. David. Thank you. And we should have someone on the Zoom. Yes, that's me, Chair. My name is Rob Edge from licensed leader representing the premises. Right. Thank you, Rob. Thank you. Sorry about that. Thank you, Chair. Right. So, yeah, we have representation today from residents and housing association and the Council's licensing team in support of review application. The license holder then will be given the opportunity to present their case. Okay. Finally, members may pass a resolution to deliberating private and exclude the press and public, including the parties and the representative. The clerk and the legal advisor will remain with the members to provide advice on procedure and law. When the decision has been reached, the meeting will reconvene and the decision of the subcommittee will be announced in public. Full written copies of the decision sent to the applicant, license holder, responsible authorities and interested parties within usually within five working days. Parties who have taken part in the hearing may appeal against the decision to the Magistrates Court within 21 days. As this is an administrative hearing under the 2003 Act, we are not trained lawyers so rely on legal advice from our legal department. Today represented by Mr Malik. Thank you. I would also like to inform all parties that we base our decision on written and oral submissions. The clerk will take minutes of the meeting. Would you like to introduce yourself? Thank you. If anyone in this chamber wishes to ask a question during the meeting, I will ask that they will raise their hand and wait to be invited to speak. I would like to ask that all mobile phones are silenced or switched off. Okay, thank you. I now invite the case officer to present their report. Thank you. Members of the license committee are asked to hear and determine application for the reviewer on premises license for KVIVA 45 West Ham Lane Stratford E15 4PH and any valid representation that has been made. The review application was submitted by local resident to the licensing authority. This was received at the 12th of August, 2024. The application was advertised by the licensing team by means of noticing the media vicinity of the premises. The grounds of the review are on the license and objective of prevention of public nuisance, public safety and crime disorder. A copy of the review application is attached to Appendix A. The applicant has submitted further documents supporting the review application. This includes video footage, images and a petition. This was received via email and was sent to the license holder's agent on the 13th of September, 2024. Also, copies were put on CD and sent to the agent's business address. A copy of all the documents are attached to Appendix B. The premises holders responded to the review application via email. A copy of all documents are attached to Appendix C. This was also sent to all parties. The council licensing team has submitted representation supporting the review application along with additional documents. A copy of their letter and supporting documents are attached to Appendix D. A resident has submitted a representation in support of the review application, including pictures. A copy of their letter is attached to Appendix E. On the 1st of August, 2025, an application was received to convert the existing justice licensing to the new license under the 2003 Act. On the 14th of May, 2021, an application was received to transfer the existing license. On the 8th of July, 2021, an application was received to vary the existing premises license. This application was refused and the application had failed to advertise the application in accordance with the regulations. On 7th of September, 2021, a second variation application was submitted which received letters of representation. A variation was submitted in 2021. Representations were received on the 4th of February, 2022. The subcommittee made a decision on the variation and the decision letter is attached to Appendix E. A copy of the current license is attached to Appendix G. Members of the Licensing Subcommittee are asked to hear the review application, the representation of the license holder and any valid representation received from responsible authority and interested parties and to determine the application. I've got the videos ready to show you as well, because obviously I can't present that to you. And that concludes the review. Thank you very much. Okay, so to your knowledge. Right, so can you confirm when the license holder actually took, received their official premises license on this property? Yes, the actual license was issued, the current license was issued, so bear with me. March, 2022. Okay. On the 7th of September, 2021, an application for a variation submitted, that was refused. I don't think that went to committee. I'll double check that, but I don't think that went to committee. I can understand all the rest. Yeah, I'll check that. Okay, that's fine. Right, so just to note that there has been a petition. Absolutely, yeah. But I've had problems reading what the top of them say. So have you got a clear copy that you can just quickly read that out for me, please. Bear with me. Okay. Oh, it's on a PDF, so it takes ages to open. I tried going through them, but I just... It doesn't really look good on here either. Oh, it doesn't. I can give you, I can try and, there's resonance of, you have to bear with me, because it's very... That's the resonance of, but well close, urge review of the license of KV for 45 West Ham Lane, E14. Over recent months, they have been operating the restaurant cafe as nightclub, as a nightclub, with loud music being played from 11 p.m. until 4 a.m. most Friday, Saturday, Sunday nights. This has led to significant disturbance for residents, including public nuisance, antisocial behaviour, and you know, so it's drunken, disorderly, it's been, disorderly conduct, patrons shouting and fighting in the streets, led to public safety concerns. These activities, can't read that word, it's a bit blurry, impact upon our quality of life, and we urge the council to take immediate action to address these ongoing issues. That's the best I can get. Sorry about that, it's a bit blurry. Yeah, it is, it is, but thank you, at least we have an idea. And so just to be noted, Maranissa, I've counted 69 residents have signed the petition, okay, and Steve, Colin, just going back to page 69, is this, appendices E, is this an official representation? Page 69? Yeah. Is that? I said that it was a resident written statement. Yep. And is this considered as an official rep? This is this lady. Lovely, thank you, right. Kefloof, does anything for Colin? Yes, just regarding the area, what, any other, Nate, what is the public nuisance and there's been in that area in general? So it's Stratford, particularly that area, we've got another premises that's round the corner on the high street, which is, sorry, name just went for me. They've got a late licence, I think it's till about four o'clock in the morning, 334. On sales you've got, you've got a pub that's had their licence reviewed in the last sort of couple of years. It's the Queen's Head, but we don't get no issues from them because they shut quite early now, I think they shut about 11, 12 o'clock now. Late, although the on sales ones, obviously there's like restaurants around the front, there's a quite a long way away, but in that immediate vicinity, there's no other on sales, there's off licences there, but no on sales there. And in terms of ASB in Nigeria? Well, I mean, we haven't had representation from the police, so we haven't had representation from police, so it's really hard for me to comment on that. I mean, I know the area quite well, and it isn't, you know, we do have issues around there, but obviously the police haven't made representation, so it's really hard for me to make any comments on that. Sorry about that.

• Thank you, Councillor Loesch, regarding the report?
• Yes, of course, thank you. Had you had calls to visit before?
• That's an awesome thing, to have a look at it, since it was licensed.
• No, I think it was visited, but I don't think we've had any reason to visit their premises until recently, and which we have, I mean, the licensing officers have visited the premises, obviously they will explain that, but previously to that, we've not visited it as a licensing authority.
• And I know as well as everyone else, a number of residents have signed the petition, I think, I can't think of 70, but I can't think of 60, that's close enough. Is that sort of, in your opinion, what sort of normal numbers do you get when people, residents do complain about it?
• Sorry, yeah, it varies, I mean, we've had over a thousand before, but this is, anything over a hundred is concerning, 80 is concerning, that sort of figure. People put pen to paper, we feel like that it's concerning, no matter how many there are.
• Thank you.
• Okay, could we go to the website and see the clips, and then we can come on to you mate. Bear with me. Should come up now, so this is the premises right in front of us. If I go, there's the police station, I don't know, you obviously know the area, but I'll just give you an idea. That's going towards Stratford Town Hall, on the left there, there's a car park there, this is Kay Viva here, if I just go down a little bit further, you've got...
• L&Q.
• Yeah, L&Q there. I think this is the block, the whole of that area, and down here is the Alice Billings car park. That's the Alice Billings car park. I'm sorry, I forgot about this pub, but it closes quite early, that's, it's called The Escape, and then you've got the pub that I was talking about on the corner there, which is the Queen's Head.
• Yes, you know the Queen's Head, yeah. Okay, could you show me what's above the Kay Viva?
• Back. Oh, that's, yes, the residence, I don't know.
• Is it residential, above? Do people live above your shop?
• The office.
• It's the office with the restaurant.
• Thank you.
• So, guys, we can't think of any more jobs or the area, Simon?
• Not that I can think of, and I just wondered if there was a shop behind the restaurant or the back end looked like.
• What, down the side road?
• Yeah.
• I think, I think down the side there is access to, um, flaps.
• Right.
• I think there are a couple of...
• College, though, isn't it? It's a new Fick or something.
• I'm not sure, I think there possibly is.
• College.
• That's a college, yeah, that's what I thought.
• There actually, there must be a college down there, yeah.
• Okay.
• Wonderful, thank you. So if you can take us to the footage?
• Okay, what I'm going to do is I'm going to put the, you might only hear it from my screen, but I'm going to put the sound on, do it the best I can, so it's, I don't know if you can hear it, but I'm going to put the sound on, so it's, I don't know if you can hear it, but I'm going to put the sound on, so it's, I don't know if you can hear it, but I'm going to put the sound on, so it's, I don't know if you can hear it, but I'm going to put the sound on, so it's, I don't know if you can hear it, but I'm going to put the sound on, so it's, I don't know if you can hear it, but I'm going to put the sound on, so it's, I don't know if you can hear it, but I'm going to put the sound on, so it's, I don't know if you can hear it, but I'm going to put the sound on, so it's, I don't know if you can hear it, but I'm going to put the sound on, so it's, I don't know if you can hear it, but I'm going to put the sound on, so it's, I don't know if you can hear it, but I'm going to put the sound on, so 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I say the only people that can make representation on temporary event notice is Environmental Health and Police, and they can do just to get conditions on the licence, or they can do just to say no, we don't want this, and then that will come in front of you. Right, okay. Have you got anything to say on this? No, I do have a question for the applicant later, but I'll just wait for this phase of questions. Okay, any further questions? And would you like, for clarity, apart from the closing time of 4am, are you saying that the temporary event doesn't have conditions, unless something special is... That's right, yeah, I mean, we can only put conditions on a temporary event notice if the venue has a licence. If it hasn't got a licence, like, this premises has got a licence, clearly, so we can transfer the conditions, or the Police or Environmental Health, not us, can transfer the conditions. This wasn't done. This wasn't done. The number of people dispersed, or... No, no, it's basically, unless the Police and Environmental Health make representation, basically, they've got a stand-alone licence overrides the premises licence, in particular cases, that's what happened. There wasn't no representations against this to get conditions onto the licence. The conditions that we put on the licence, or that can be put on the licence, can only mirror the ones that are on the licence, so if we do get representations, let's say, from the Police, they can't add conditions to the temporary event notice that's not already attached to the licence. They can adjust them, but they can't add new ones, they can't do that, they can only put the conditions that are on, so they can transfer them conditions over to the temporary event notice. They would have to make representation to us to do that, and then we would, what we would do is then we'd get the representation, we'd set it all up, get the temporary event out to the licence holder with all the conditions attached to it, and say, and just tell them, this is your temporary event notice, but you've got to adhere to all these conditions if you want to operate. Thank you. Yeah, just a point really, maximum temporary licence in the temporary event notices that can go out in any year, any particular venue. Changed a few times, but I think it's 21, it's still 21, yeah. Oh, we thought it was 15. No, it's been extended because of Covid, and I don't think they've changed it back. I can check, but as far as I'm aware. Sorry? It's actually my right, but it's 15, 10s in one year, or for those that don't make the event for school, we know more than 21 days. 21 days, yeah. So when you're out of the 15 or 21 notice temporary things that can go out in any particular annual year, does that include one, say, if over a weekend, Friday, Saturday or Sunday, if there's three events on one weekend, does that count as one event? Yeah, I mean, that will count as one temporary event notice, but over three days, using up their days, so they're using up their 21 days, but they've only used one temporary event, so it's 15 or 21 days, and they can have a one temporary event, can that take, I think it's seven days, 100 and something hours, and then they have to have a 24 hour break, but obviously this case is just weekends, so in this case, they add a temporary event notice on the 20th and 21st of January, and that's one temporary event for two days, so that went in from this, let's say the Saturday going into the Sunday, that takes two days, so if it was just from midnight to four o'clock, that would just be one temporary event. Got it, thank you. All right, thank you very much. Are there any questions you would like regarding what we've discussed, rather than the Thames? Just clarity, because I'm not familiar with this process, in terms of the Thames length, when you said that it could be from, say, nine o'clock, one day up until four in the morning, and that's classed as one day? It's two days, classed as two days. Oh, it's classed as two days, because it's planning two days. Untemporary event notice. Right, okay. The application, two days. Right, but if they're doing Friday, Saturday, and it finishes on Sunday morning, what is that class? Three days. And that comes under one Thames? One temporary event notice. Three days, okay, thank you. They're allowed 21 days per year, and if they use three days up there, obviously, then that reduces the, I mean, they have two days, so if it goes from, so if it starts on one day and goes into the next day, that's two days they've used. Thank you. One day. And then just to clarify, up until May 2024 of this year, have they, has the venue then used all of their available Thames? I think they're up to the limit of temporary event notices, yeah. Okay, thank you. Yeah. They can't use any more from, I think the last one was on June 2024. That was the last time they used the temporary event notice. Any questions? No. Thank you. Steve? Sorry, just a question of clarification to the applicant. The applicant, you've said that there's been an escalation over the last 12 months in respect of the issues, and you've said that since the review application, there's still events been taking place. Do these events finish at 2am or 4am, sort of the last, anything after June, the question? So, when we submitted the request for review, I believe that was in August, August was the tipping point for us where the venue was still hosting parties till 4am, and that was consecutive nights of parties, and that was the tipping point. Even after the review has been submitted, the venue is continuing to host parties, but I believe that they are closing their doors earlier than they have previously. Okay, and one more question. Every time the issue attends, how do the residents know that there has been an extension or something like that for? Are there any notices you put out, do we put them in the paper? How would he know that the licence holder has applied for attends till 4pm in the morning? No, they don't. There's no consultation for residents on the temporary event notice. It's just... Just this? Just this. Again, that's not my decision. It's literally the police and the Environmental Health Team that can make representations. They're notified of it, and they're given a temporary event notice. We send them that, so the application comes in to us, we send it out to the police and the Environmental Health Team, and they're the only consultation. There doesn't have to be any notices, there doesn't have to be any consultation with local residents or any other responsible authority under a temporary event notice. It's a less onerous, because it is temporary and it's only a one-off, it's less onerous than a full-blown premises licence. That's probably the reasoning behind that, not my view, because it's still going to impact on local residents, but that's the law under the Licensing Act. Thank you. Rob, would you like to ask any questions or put any questions to the applicant or to Colin with regards to what you've just heard? Really, just to clarify and mention a couple of points that Colin made. I mean, he's quite rival of consultation with regards to the 10s, and actually it's referred to in the Section 182 guidance as a light touch application, because of the nature of the period that a 10 lasts for. Right. Rob, sorry, can I hold on one moment? I ask you if you wanted to ask a question, because you will get time after this to present your case and you can bring that all up in your argument. Is that okay? Yeah, that's fine, Chair. Right, so are there any questions you would like to put to the applicant or to Colin regarding what was just discussed? Only to the applicant on the basis that would he not agree that given the fact that there were 23 days of 10s over 12 events and neither the police or Environment Health saw fit to object to any of those, and therefore as well as the police not objecting or supporting this review, they must believe that there is no solid evidence, that the disturbance comes from specifically from this premises and that it's general antisocial behaviour within the neighbourhood. Would you like to respond? Thank you. No, I disagree and also on behalf of residents that said that will not necessarily be the case. I myself have personally contacted the police because I am not familiar with the processes, procedures and the right routes in order to address antisocial behaviour in this way. You'll have seen in your pack the email following a conversation I had with the police outside the police station just by chance meeting. I've been trying to follow the process but unfamiliar as to how I'm supposed to rally support or the correct procedures I'm supposed to follow because it is not well documented on the council's website nor is it very accessible for either myself or residents to know which forms to fill in, who to speak to, so I disagree with the gentleman's statement. Thank you. Any further questions, Rob? No, nothing else from me. Thank you, Chair. Right, wonderful. Okay. Are there any questions you would like to put to the applicant? Oh, questions? The town hall, you know where that is? You're not familiar with most of the things. You know where the town hall is? The town hall, yes. Yeah, you know they have functions there sometime until 12 o'clock. Right, sorry. I need you to ask him a question regarding his statement. Yeah, but I was trying to say that there's other premises there. You'll have an opportunity after he is finished and after the authorities are finished. Put your case forward. Okay, all right, but I have no question. Everything you want to say. I have no question. Thank you very much. Okay, question to the applicant? Can you tell us the age brackets of people you saw falling on the streets and disturbing the neighborhood? Can you tell us the age brackets? The age brackets? I think it varies. These are probably people of around 20 plus. There's some people, I mean, I'm 40 years of age. Some people, 40 slightly plus as well. So there's a varying age range. It's not just on one occasion, but this has happened. And because of the proximity of the venue to the main road, I understand it's quite easy to walk straight into the road and then fall or to then accidentally bump into another passerby and that causes a conflict. So yes, the age ranges do vary and there's been multiple occasions also. And this you've seen for yourself? Yes. Yes, Sharon. Would you like to respond? Why I ask this question is that I don't cater for young people. I cater from 40 to 70 year old. Okay. You will have your opportunity to present your case and tell us all about it. Any further questions for the applicants? One more? Yes. Because of something you said just recently. It sounds as if the last tense was granted, that means four o'clock in the morning, was granted in June. So there have been incidents who said in July and August. Yes. Were they till four in the morning as well or did you say some of those were earlier? Some may have just been until two, but the specific one that comes to mind whereby the residents were like approaching me and like this cannot continue was in August. And that was until four? That was until 4am. Yep. Thank you. Okay. No further. We're going to... Sorry, just one. Do you remember the date of that one? It was the weekend preceding the application submission. So I believe that's around about the 26th of August, I believe. I believe that we had a conversation over the phone where you requested the specific date. Yes, that's fine. Just wanted on record that that was the date. Thank you. Wonderful. So can we progress? Steve, would you like to present your comments? Thank you. Thank you, Shem. The Council's licensing and policy team would like to submit the application as a responsible authority on the grounds of private disorder, the prevention of public nuisance and public safety. The premises have been operating under a number of temporary event notices over the last few years. You can check them out at local systems and, apart from this review, the licensing team has not received any complaints regarding this venue. [inaudible] All the TENS are listed on my... No, that's fine. We can send them as listed. It also appears they've exceeded their allocation of TENS. This is due to an error of them submitting incorrect hours. They used up their allocation too early as they carried them over two days rather than just extending the hours as they required. The premises can have up to 15 TENS in one year as long as the total length of events is no more than 21 days. So, due to this, the venue can not apply for any more TENS this year. The licensing authority believes much of the review application information relates to TENS events that have been taking place. However, some events may have been held outside their coming last four hours of conditions or about a valid TENS in place, copied with online adverts attached. The licensing team... [inaudible] A follow-up visit to check the premises... [inaudible] The licensing team... [inaudible] [inaudible] I've discussed this with the premises holder and her colleagues and stated that I would strongly suggest that they apply for full variation to suit their business model, being a restaurant, bar or club, which caters for dancing, DJing and alcohol sales without food, which the premises seem to be advertised on the hosting for these type of events. And again, the touch flies would be located at the premises. And these contain reasons that they had been applied for the TENS over the past few years. The premise holder is a good person, along with some of our staff we spoke to on the compliance visit. However, there's a clear lack of understanding of the public license conditions and license objectives, and this will require trying to ensure these conditions are met. This will be by way of training, ensuring appropriate documentation is in place, such as training records and ensuring that CCPD provider has CCPD footage available in 31 days. Also training the premise holder on how to download the footage and acceptable format which can be provided to the responsible parties when requested. The premises must now ensure they adhere to all their current licensing conditions, last four hours, and to ensure it operates as a restaurant with table service and alcohol service and facility to a table fill. The licensing team will be happy to discuss a variation in the future with the code premises holder and work with them. However, the premises must ensure it takes into account the local residents who have called the premises in for this review and ensure it upholds the four license objectives on behalf of the outer slice of authority in the capacity of the responsible authority or like members of the staff committed to consider this letter of representation. So additional connection. There has been a lot of people saying that it was the same as the one from my colleague Shane. We obviously did not commit the revisit. I'm sorry, it does come to mean the revisits that have been carried out at the premises. Obviously, it was documented the first visit we did where we did try and obtain the CCPDs from a complaint that we received on the 23rd of August and the 25th of August which I think the President made reference to earlier. Unfortunately, the CCPD only went back for seven days when we visited so we couldn't obtain whether or not there was an issue around the actual license. Since then, Shane has actually revisited the premises, and that was on 16th September. He conducted a full revisit at the premises with the premise holder, went through our license conditions, and there was a CCPD engineer on site at that time, and they were installing footage which he confirmed would be contained for the full 31 days as per their license condition. Obviously, the folks mentioned that there was an overall improvement from the last visit, and since this statement has actually been back in the CCPD, it's fully operational, and all their conditions have now been applied. Sorry, just one thing. Just following on from what Steve's just said, they did submit a minor variation to change some conditions off of their license. I've just noticed it. It's too late to put into the committee report. It was to take off the waitress service. I'll open it for you. And when was it submitted? It was submitted mid-September, and it was refused because the police and licensing made representation against it. On a minor variation, there's no grounds for appeal. If we receive letters of representation and it's down to the local authority, the licensing team, to decide whether it's an impact on one of the more licensing objectives by taking off the - and this premise is one to review anyway - by taking them conditions off of the license, we believed it would impact, because it was in review, so the application was refused in its entirety. And the removal of the supply of alcohol shall be by waiter and waitress service only, and shall only be ancillary to table meals. That was the condition that they wanted to remove from the license. That was the only one? I think it - oh no, the venue has changed over time now. It's just explaining it. So that was the only - but it was refused anyway. I just wanted to sort of make sure that everyone's aware that there was a minor variation, and it was refused. It just didn't have time to get into the review. And that was mid-September? Yeah, I mean, it refused towards the end of September. There's a 10-day consultation, and I bet it was refused, because licensing and the police made representation against it, saying that that condition would impact on the licensing objectives. Okay. Right, thank you. Simon, would you like to ask Steve any questions? Not that I can - springs to mind. Thank you. Yes, please. When you say that the license is not currently fit for purpose, if the business model has changed, right, now is that referring to the weekend events? Or would you say it's the right license for Monday to Thursday, but not appropriate for the weekend? Which way would it factor? Well, the original license was issued for the premise holder operating as a restaurant. I think things have changed and developed from their business model, because obviously low turnout of people coming down to sit down and eat. So obviously that's why they've applied for these temporary event notices, to extend their hours and extend basically having no conditions for table service, so it can hold DJ events, parties, etc. I'm sure the applicant can explain more on the type of events they've been holding, but obviously with our discussion, when we've been visiting to go through their conditions to make sure they're - I don't think they were fully aware of their conditions at the time of our visit, which was quite evident, as there was a lot of things that were missing, but working with the applicant and her colleagues, they have shown that we're keen to try and improve what they're doing and adhere to their conditions. But as what we said today, if they want to change their business model, I strongly suggest that they do apply for full variation, so it will go around to all responsible parties and the residents will obviously be notified for this as it goes through a 28-day consultation period. And obviously conditions can therefore be agreed with the appropriate times and conditions relevant to our bar/club rather than at restaurants. So perhaps my next question would be for the premises holder, but just for the moment. So that would apply to all week, but it seems that the business model is changing for the whole week or so. If I want to comment on that, hold on, if that'll be signed for the applicant, I'm sorry, the premise, I will be sorry. I was also looking at the comment at the end of, on page 56, on the end of Shane's report, saying that he was satisfied with the results. I mean, does that mean they're satisfied, to what extent are you satisfied with the conditions and what they're doing? I mean, basically what it means is that Shane will carry out a full compliance visit on the premises. There's a number of failures, a warning letter, a revisit. I've got an agreed date and time, I'll do a surprise visit on the premises to see if they are now adhering to their conditions. Shane went back, he's gone through all the conditions he's gained. There was full compliance, the CCTV is in full operational working order, and I believe the last date and time they did look at was around two o'clock in the morning, which was in compliance with their current licence. And that's operating as a resident? Operators. Absolutely. But they can't operate as anything else because of the conditions that are listed on their current licence. Yes, thank you. Just wanted to clarify that, thank you. Okay. So, as you can see, they have been going back to their licence been issued in 2022. And your compliance visit and the amount of breaches, which I counted, what was it, 15 breaches? How many breaches were there? Was it 15? Every two years, literally. You're saying to me that they haven't understood their conditions, and they have been carrying out. There's a couple of important breaches that I can see. So, from 2022, are you saying that it's taken nearly two years for you guys to take it up and do a compliance visit? Well, I'm not saying that. If there's someone else who's been carrying out a visit on the premises, there's nothing documented on our system. However, obviously, everything's based on what we find on the day. The official book might be available, but if it's not on the premises at the time, unfortunately, it hasn't paid the NHS, so that's why it would be listed on the actual warning letter. Obviously, with CCTV, they've got no information on how long that's been down, so I really can't comment on that. But obviously, we only could base on our evidence that we find, and that's why we document on our warning letters, and that's why we do our follow-up visits on that. In terms of the previous visit though, Chair, I've got to say that previously, as you know, we've got over a thousand premises with each father. I know. Only go to a premises if there's issues, complaints, points of interest, issues with the union, or conditions they can deal with. As I said to everyone, let's regret there's been no history of any reported complaints that we've received. As a licensing team, of course. Right, okay. All right, so going to page 35, Rob has sent in some conclusions. Even though you've gone there, and according to PGA, you're happy with what you've seen, and then confirmed claims. So Rob has sent in some extra things, which includes the utilities required disposal, sorry, poster, not disposal, noise management plans, dispersal plans. Does this alleviate your concerns even further, for this review not to go to the notification, if we remind you to go that way? Yes, Chair. From the actual (inaudible) That's why I've not included that in my letter. (inaudible) I can only go by the evidence that was submitted. I believe that some of these complaints may have arrived from (inaudible) but they were fully operational under a TENS rather than their license. From what I can see there, there's no evidence that it reaches that I've seen. I think there's only one flyer that I did see this year that they did have advertised (inaudible) but I can't see the time listed on there, but speaking to the applicant when we were on site, they said it finished at 2 o'clock. (inaudible) Going back to page 35, quite robust and in-depth description of the noise management plan, et cetera, et cetera, including what you've seen and it's now become compliant, are you happy? And do you think they're more qualified and more understanding of four license objectives moving forward on their business model? From what Mr. Lee just put down (inaudible) I'm pleased to see that and obviously from the revisit we've carried out with the applicant (inaudible) However, they still (inaudible) Did it surprise you that they put in a condition or wanted a condition removed regarding that last (inaudible) No, it doesn't surprise me, but obviously they put it as a minor variation and as Colin said, it affects one on one, four license objectives, especially that was a condition that was imposed by yourselves in 2022. I did suggest that full variation be submitted, but I strongly suggested that the actual application was (inaudible) a decision made before they did attempt to put in any application. Right, thank you. Any further questions? Are there any questions you'd like to ask Steve regarding any conversations we've just had? Just again, to clarify, to ask a question regarding when you're saying that to your knowledge, there hasn't been any evidence of events being held outside of the Thames. Is it because you haven't received any complaints to yourselves directly? That's correct, yes. (inaudible) Thank you. Sorry, is there any question? Yes, I did not know you have to make direct complaint, because like us, neighbors, most of them, we just complain about ourselves. A lot of ladies, the husband go to work at night. That's a big question to see. Yeah, a lot of ladies, they are by themselves with young family, they just get scared at night. They just talk to, oh, we don't know what to do, but they dare not to go to the police, because they say, oh, the police will do nothing. Excuse me, my government, that is what they say, oh, the police will do nothing, wipe all the waste out. That is their comment. Okay, thank you. What normally happens when reports are put into the local police, and they provide you with a reference number or CAD number, so if there is an issue around a license premises, if then reference numbers can be provided to the licensing team, we can then follow up with the police. We can find out what the issues were, what times they occurred, and then we can obviously look at the license if carried, because it occasionally if complaints do start coming in. If we don't have the evidence or any complaints coming to us, we can't carry out, unless we're doing routine visits, we can't carry out and understand that there is a problem with the premises, unless we receive multiple complaints or even a complaint, we still investigate one single complaint. But until we do, unfortunately, there's not much we can do unless we know about it. So just for clarity, there must be how many people in your block? We have 48 apartments with at least one, if not two or three residents per apartment. Okay, so just for clarity purposes, you're saying that you've not received one phone call or letter or email from that block of 47 people that is on your file to date? If calls are made to the police, they'll have a reference number and the police would have had a list of issues with that premises and I'm sure they would have made a supporting back to date and again, from the licensing authority, we have had no complaints apart from this review that I've seen, that's what triggered us going to do a full compromise. Thank you. Rob, is there anything you would like to ask Steve? Question? No, I think he's definitely covered everything very comprehensively. Thank you, Jeff. Right, wonderful. Okay, any questions? No? Good. Okay, Rob, this is your time now to present your case. Hold on one moment. I'm not sure if... Sorry, I finally... If you would like to expand on... Oh, I'm sorry, yes, you're on page... What page is she on? You've made representation. Sorry, I have bypassed you. Maybe 71. Would you like to expand on your representation that you've made? Yes, what happened is that we meet a lot of people, they have fallen, some people say I'm fallen, and they dare not to complain. A lot of rental properties, you see. Until today, I did not know we can complain to the police about all this noise. Although I live in England since 1970, I just think, oh, I keep myself good, no problem, don't give any problem, I'm okay. That is our attitude. You see, now we know in future to complain. Yeah, but what annoys me or scares me is that some ladies that, oh, we dare not to open the window in case they throw the bottles at us. And there are five things, sometimes they just stop the car in the middle of the road, no car can go through. And the people that you've seen come out of that particular... I cannot see them come out, but from their accent, I know it's come out from there. From their accent? Yeah, the way they speak, I speak, I have my accent. Yeah, right, okay. Until four o'clock and I get so tired that other people get tired as well. I'm 79, usually I walk with a walking stick. So if I'm tired, I can't walk properly, I might fall, isn't it? I've had a lot of people mentally. Do you agree with your colleague that this has been happening more frequent in the last 12 months? Yes. And don't leave more over the weekends? Yes. Right, okay. Right. So is there anything you'd like to add? No, I could just expand on yours, but you've said the weekends. It is just the weekends, is it? Oh, I noticed it. Maybe it's the weekends. Okay. But I don't really know what day it is. I have nowhere to go, no job, nothing is in it. I'm 79. Okay, I know it. Yes. Simon, any questions for Chi? None. Thank you, Chi. Alright, thank you. Thank you. Alright, wonderful. Moving on. Okay, Rob, it's now your opportunity to state your case. Thank you. Okay, thank you very much, Chair. Through you, Chair, acting for the premises license holder, I've given full regard to the review application and representation made against this application, against this premises. Council statement of licensing policy, the licensing objectives set out in the license in Act 2003, and the Home Office guidance issued under the section 182 of the Act. It seems that there are challenges with the current business model of the venue, which is negatively impacting upon their profitability and compliance, especially due to the restricted condition which is in place. From the context of Annex D from Steve Jackson, he fully acknowledges that there haven't been any compliance issues with the premises until September 2024. The business model does need a significant adjustment through a full variation to the licensing authority in order to become a more buy-in premises. This is a positive development, as it appears the licensing authority is open to discussing these changes, which could potentially help the venue and all other parties concerned. Additionally, it seems that there are concerns raised by the local residents about issues such as vehicles, people in the road and general antisocial behavior, but there is no direct evidence that this is from this premises. However, it's important to clarify that we believe that a lot of the problems come from premises in and around the area, the one referred to by COVID as being around the corner. That's not to say that this premises is completely innocent. As was mentioned earlier, even when people do leave, part of the dispersal plan is that people are dispersed in small groups, so that at four o'clock there's not a mass exodus with large numbers out on the street. Moving forward, we believe it would be useful to focus on a few key strategies. One that the premises license holder will engage with and continue discussions, the licensing authority and responsible authorities, in relation to the submission of the full variation for the premises. And this should resolve this matter, or at least most of it. We believe there's a requirement to have a strategy for community engagement. Whilst distancing the venue from local ASB issues, but maintaining open communication with the residents could mitigate concerns and demonstrate that the venue is a responsible business in contributing positively to the community. Premises license holder wishes to work in harmony and maintain a good standing with both the licensing authority and the local community. She also acknowledges that there have been shortcomings in the management of the premises and recognise that it needs a more thorough and professional delivery of staff and management training. And this could be delivered either by myself or any other reputable licensing consultant. They are asking for you to understand the current situation and for seeking a chance to correct the issues and resolve the current situation. In relation to the 10s, the section 182 guidance does say that the 10 should be a light touch application. It's my belief that if either environmental health had received noise or nuisance complaints, they'd have had reason to object to a 10, as would have the police. Neither of them have. And therefore, from their perspective, they have no concerns in relation to the licensing objectives. All of the 10s over 23 days and 12 events were approved by both the police and environmental health. And there were no recorded incidents or any of those 10s with any of the responsible authorities. To summarise, I think the whole business has changed. The condition, which was probably quite right at the time that was put onto the license saying that people can only consume drinks when they sit down for a full meal, was appropriate for a restaurant. I think it was either Colin or Steve, I can't recall, but they've said, you know, since Covid, restaurants are within the hospitality sector, the businesses that are struggling the most because people don't frequent restaurants anywhere near the number of times they used to prior to Covid. And a full variation with reasonable hours and with some dialogue and mediation with. Sorry, I've forgotten if I've got the right first name. Is it David Mills? Prior to the submission of a full variation would be the best way to go so that, you know, the full variation could be conditioned with such things as there will be no more than X number of events after three o'clock in the morning. I'm just anecdotally saying the kind of conditions that could be on the full variation. But unless you have any questions for me, that concludes my initial submission, Chair. Thank you. Any questions for Rob? Yes, maybe not in order of importance but one of the issues that the residents particularly complained about has been loud music, the noise from the music, and your report refers to reasonable levels and so on. Could you just expand on what you might mean by a reasonable level and how you might be considering monitoring that? Yes, certainly. The noise management plan, which was submitted with the documents launched, how those work in general practice is that either the premises license holder or a member of staff go to what's referred to as the nearest receptor. So they would cross over the road to where the block of flats are at various times during the evening. So they might do the first time at 9.30, 10 o'clock, go and stand there and then make a, it's subjective as such, but they would make a subjective decision on could they hear the noise audibly when standing at the flats across the road. If that's the case, then it means there is noise breakout from the premises and it could disturb neighbors. So they then go back, record that on the noise management plan and instruct the DJ to reduce the noise volume level. They would check at what volume the DJ has adjusted the music to and then repeat the procedure and go back and see whether those measures were sufficient. And that's, you know, the premises being proactive and also part of that working with the community to ensure that people can still have fun inside a licensed venue, have a drink and listen to music and dance. But it shouldn't be at a cost for the neighbors across the road where they can't enjoy a good peaceful evening watching telly. Can I just go on from that? With somebody coming out every hour or so, would that be a really viable and robust way of measuring excessive noise? There are other measures such as noise monitoring devices. They're very expensive and unless you're a noise or acoustic specialist, then local authorities don't tend to think that that's a sufficient measure because you've got someone who's not fully trained trying to use a noise monitoring device. And then, you know, even then making a subjective decision, but the noise management plan I referred to is something that's generally used across the whole of the UK by many venues, whether they're pubs, cafes, restaurants or SEVs. Thank you for the moment on that. Thank you. Thank you, Chad. Hello Rob, hi. Couple of questions really. How long have you been the agent acting for the applicant, Vivian? Gosh, I would probably say it's about two years. Thank you. And in your opinion, obviously the compliance check back in September this year didn't go particularly well. In your opinion, what do you think went well? Again, it's always quite strange. So for instance, you know, on the initial check where it says things like no refusals book or no logbook kept or available, I'm led to believe that because the pack that I lodged is something that I send out as an updated pack to all my clients, roughly every six months. And the fact that the paperwork was at the license holders house at the time of the visit, it's recorded as not being there, not available. It doesn't mean it wasn't in use. I mean, there probably were some errors. Gotcha. And that also refers to the CCTV that we obviously, none of us know how long that wasn't working correctly. No, we don't. We don't. But again, I would have said that's probably, bearing in mind that was in the licensing conditions back in '22 when it was issued. Would you not think that's quite obvious it has to be in working order at all times? Or would you think that, would you call it an oversight? No, one of the elements of someone such as myself or any other licensing consultant going in to deliver training to management and staff. Always the sort of first port of call is emphasizing the requirement for due diligence. So that would be, for example, holding a log and doing a weekly check of things like the fire alarms, the CCTV, the emergency lighting. So the worst case scenario, if one of those pieces of equipment is not working or not functioning as it should be, there's a seven day period before you find out that it's gone wrong. Gotcha. Final question to you. Obviously, you said you helped with the training, etc, etc. I assume you visited the premises before the compliance check in September. When was the visit? When did you last visit before that compliance check? I mean, it's probably got to be 18 months ago. Yeah, okay. I assume at that point you checked all the conditions were being met at that time. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor. You said that you've been working for approximately two years. When they originally applied for their license, was you present at that hearing? Right. I'm trying to think back now. I don't think I was. I mean, I actually deal with thousands of applications. And I can't definitively recall, but I don't think I was, Chair. Okay. Sorry, I think, in fact, I think I'm almost certain I wasn't because I think when I had a conversation, it was with the premises license holder that they'd done the application, they'd put in the advert, but I think the advert was outside the 10 day timeframe. And that's why the variation initially was disallowed. Right. Okay. And at what stage did you ever sit down with your clients to go through their license and their conditions and to explain to them, or has that never happened? There would have been that kind of conversation on my first visit 18 months ago. But the only time I would then do that again with a client, and we have had a number of conversations, you know, the last major one being when the minor variation was submitted. But I would normally only go through those conversations when a client approaches me and said, and says, we believe we need you to come and do a compliance check. And at that stage, we would probably encompass a compliance check and an update on staff training simultaneously. Right. So going back to my original question, when did you have the conversation with your clients about the conditions and their responsibilities? I will have had various conversations over the 18 month period, I couldn't specify any dates on those. Right. So were you surprised how many breaches, I know you're saying that they may have their instant book at home or their training book at home, but if they've read their conditions and understand their conditions, they should understand that responsibility is entirely up to them to have this on the premises at all times. I couldn't disagree with you there, Chair. And I think Steve Jackson would probably concur. So for instance, last week I visited 18 premises, out of those 18, 15 were non-compliant, if you were to do it to the letter of the law under the Licensing Act. Please tell me they weren't in Newham. They certainly were not, Chair. That is good to hear. But I think also it goes back to the point that Steve made. I mean, what very often happens is, you know, and people do this in all walks of life, you know, they're running the business, they're sorting out staff, PAYE and all the other things. And they believe that the day to day management of the premises is something they're doing right. And it's only when someone comes in and says, as an example, there can be a condition on the licence that says staff training will take place twice yearly and this training will be documented and retained at the premises, made available for responsible authorities. And then actually on a compliance check, you find that the last documented staff training was over a year ago. So they're in breach of their conditions because they haven't done it twice yearly. But in their mind, they're constantly saying every day, don't forget Challenge 25, don't forget this, don't forget that. They just failed to keep the correct documentation. I'm not saying that's an excuse. But that's just an answer. So you mentioned that you or you might be, well, from what you said earlier, you will be conducting the training for them or they might go with another professional company. So will you be conducting their training and how often? Will you be giving them refreshers? How will that work and has that conversation been had with them? Well, the conversation was had the other day on the basis that Steve's reply saying about the full variation. And my answer to that was that if we were to submit a full variation prior to the full variation, both management and staff training should take place and be documented correctly with certificates, etc. issue. But obviously, from a commercial point of view, the premises license holder would say to me, OK, what are your charges for coming to London, doing the training, delivering the paperwork, etc. I give a quote, and then she's obviously quite free to inquire elsewhere and see comparable prices. OK. All right. OK, so to your understanding, there have never been a training course or a fresher course had at that premises since you've been with them. No, there has been staff training delivered by the DPS previously, but I haven't personally delivered staff training. Right. Thank you. Are there any questions for Rob at this moment in time? Sorry, one moment. Sorry, I could have asked before. Regarding the distress that has been caused to residents, which has been considered, and it's not just the issue of the breaching your license things. How would you envisage relating to the members of the community, particularly the flats across the road. Those people have been so distressed. How would I want, sorry. Oh, so how do you envisage, how would you plan to advise the license holder. Sorry, I'm with you. I think that goes back to a point raised by Colin earlier on that, for example, on a temporary event notice, there is no statutory notice given to residents. There's no requirement for anyone to do anything, but I personally always recommend to premises license holders. If it's a little block like that with, you know, 40-ish apartments, they obviously have main entrances to their blocks. The premises simply prints a small A5 flyer saying, you know, a month in advance, it's our intention to hold an event on such and such a date with the timings, etc. And, you know, engage with the residents association, keep them informed of what's going on. Because in a lot of cases, you know, I have a venue relatively close to me. If they're going to have a big function on a Saturday night, and I'm aware that they've got an extension of the license until two or three in the morning or whatever, I'll probably go away that weekend, or I'll go out myself, or whatever. But at least I can make decisions based on the information I'm given. And I believe that's what premises license holders should do. Thank you, because that is critical. Any further questions for Rob? Just a very short question. Rob, thank you so much. That's been really helpful and welcome to hear, particularly regarding the openness, regarding that there has been admission of shortcomings. I do very much appreciate that. In relation to the phone calls that you've received, because I appreciate there's only been one visit since the initial setup with yourself. When you said there have been multiple phone calls, how long would these phone calls typically take? Are you talking about training? How is your role in order to help the license holder? I suppose the best way for me to answer that is probably from a commercial point of view. My background is I used to work as a licensing manager for a local authority for a number of years prior to doing this. I'm based in Birmingham, with another office in Hertfordshire. Now if I happen to be going down to Hertfordshire, occasionally I'll contact various clients within London and say I'm in the area. Do you need me to come and do staff training? Exactly. On other occasions, when a client brings me and says, you know, what can we do about this condition on the license? Or I don't understand this element of one of the conditions or whatever. Some of those conditions, some of those conversations can be 20 minutes, half an hour. I don't charge for it. I'm giving general advice to a client, which in some cases will end up with me saying, and I strongly recommend we now put in a full variation or I strongly recommend that you instruct someone for staff training. So those conversations could be five minutes, but they might be half an hour. And sometimes they're on WhatsApp video, sometimes they're just a telephone call, but I probably had at least a dozen conversations with Kayaviba over the last 18 months. Okay. Are you happy with that? Yes. Okay. Any further questions for Rob? Right, Vivian. Yeah, now there's some questions we need to ask you. All right. So, James, would you like to start? Yes. Okay, so you've been running your sort of celebratory, your big events on tents, haven't you? How many such events would you want to have been in a year and six months? How frequently would you like these events? Most times is only when customers want to have parties. That's why we have temporary events. We just don't run events. It's only when there's party, when there's occasion, like some people want to have. I've had 60th, 70th, 75th years, 30th. I don't run parties for young children, youngsters, no. It's for older people. It's only when they're having parties that we have temporary events. So we can say this is how many we're going to have in a year. And we have 78th, 60th, 48th babies that we take, we go for a temporary event. But you've been having them on a kind of twice a month, twice a month, twice a monthly basis so far. Yeah. Yes. Maybe once or twice a month. It all depends when it comes. Okay. Hi Vivienne. I'm going to ask the same question to you as well. With the compliance check, it obviously didn't go well, we know that. In your opinion, what did go wrong? Why were there so many breaches? What happened was that we were doing some decorations. They were all hanging there. They saw the frame. I removed them because of the decorations. So I took them in my bag and then I left them in the house. Some of them were still there but they were not hanging. The main one was the one I took, the license was the one I left in my bag. The rest of it was placed somewhere. After the decoration, we hand them back, which I showed to them when they came. So I brought out the frame to show them that they are here. It's just after the decoration, we hand them back. That was what happened. Thank you. And with regards to the CCTV video not working, how long had that been out of action and not been compliant? The CCTV was working all right, but the only thing was it wasn't recorded to 31 days, which I wasn't aware of. Was it all working? So it wasn't recording for the full required 31 days or keeping it? It had seven days recorded. So you weren't aware that? It worked perfectly well for seven days recording. Right, but you weren't aware within your licensing conditions it had to be for 31 days saving it? I didn't know the one I bought was seven days. I just got the CCTV. I thought it recorded to 21 days because there was no event or no incident for us to go back. I didn't know that, only seven days. I thought it was 21 days. So you thought it was for the required time, but in reality it was seven? When they came, I would try to go back. I realised it wasn't going back more than seven days. How long had the CCTV been installed? Since I opened the restaurant. Okay, thank you. Looking at the video footage earlier from TikTok and various other social media things, I know everyone was wearing jackets. So it was obviously done during the winter time. Yeah, that was clear. But I do wonder if you're having such things during the summer months, do you have air conditioning in the premises? Yeah, we have air conditioner and we have heater. Is that proper air conditioning? I notice fans in the footage, you know, on the bar and things. So you've got full air conditioner? They have, they just choose to wear their jacket. We have, because they have the jacket. Okay, thank you. And last question, where was the smoking area? Smoking area is outside my restaurant, Mark Street. There's a street, Mark Street, that's where they go to smoke. Right, got you. Mark Street is the dead end of the street. It's an open road, isn't it, I think? No, it's not a true road. No, that's right, but it's one with the cottage on the corner, that street. Just beside the cottage. Thank you. Okay, that's it. Thank you. Yes, go ahead. I didn't ask my question fully, really. So, how would you envisage going forward, we're obviously going to be looking at conditions and so on, but would you want to have a continuation, to continue doing tents for your parties and so on? It's given that you're limited to the number you've found, but you know, it's 15 a year or 21 days, is that what you want to continue, having tents? No. How would we, how would you envisage having your license buried to suit your events? Why we applied for permanent four o'clock license? Until, for every day? No, not every day. It's only one o'clock at the weekend. Weekends we close two o'clock. I close most times 12 o'clock, only where we have functions that we close two o'clock. Mainly we close 11, 12 o'clock every weekend, except if it's function, then we close two o'clock. So a license that allowed you to be open until four at the weekend, is that what you're thinking? Later or now. Now we have only two o'clock license. And you'd be happy with that for the week? No, we want four o'clock license if it's possible. For the weekend? For only Friday as of today. But you might not be using it? I might not be using it, yes. Only when we have events or parties, any parties. That's the only time we use it. We don't use it all the time. And then on those occasions, you might consider, as Rob was saying, putting a note in to let the residents know. Of course, yes. Yes, now that I know we can do that, I'll do it. Thank you. Thank you. How many customers could you fit into your establishment standing? Standing. About 50 or 60, I think. About 60. How many sitting? Standing and sitting, about 60. The first question was, how many people can you have on your premises standing? You said 60. Some. Standing, drinking, swaying, dancing, standing. Standing, about 50. About 50. Sitting, eating? About 20. Right. So usually, are you saying Monday through Saturday or Monday through Sunday all week, you have a restaurant service where people are sitting and eating unless there is a booked function? Yes, Monday to Thursday, I have just only restaurants. Only restaurants. So Friday, what normally happens? Tonight I have restaurant until 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock. Then if there is function, it starts from there. If we have tents, we stay till four. Right. So normally on a Friday, if you have not got an event booked at your premises, what time do you usually close on a Friday and a Saturday? Eleven o'clock. I have two o'clock lights out, but I close eleven o'clock. If there is no, if it's that busy, she closes early. Eleven o'clock. Okay. All right. Right. So you have a smoking area, you say, out the front. Has it been cordoned off or is it just where you tell people they can go? We just tell people they can go there and the security has got them there. That's only on event nights. Only on events. So every event that you have, you get a CIA operative to come and... We get more than one, not just one. We have a man and a female. Right, a man and a female. Okay. When you have these events, you say that you don't have youngsters. Well, I'm not quite sure if we were watching the same footage on there. I saw people there from at least 25 upwards. The third... Can I finish? That was a nigh-nigh. And can I finish? Thank you. The type of music that you were playing on the majority of the videos that I saw were for people of my age and younger. So I'm asking you, and I did see some children and a very young one in there. So these events, people book it, they are for special occasions. You have Kristin, I think they're called nigh-nigh. The third one that you saw with a young person there. A young, yeah. And the parents was right there. Right. Standing next to them. Right. I think that was a nigh-nigh. Nigh-nigh, yes. That one. Yeah, and we also have Kristin and stuff like that. And one of the clips that you showed, that was not Cave Evil. The first one was in my... That was somewhere else, but they just get the clippings just to do the advertised. Right. It wasn't that venue. Okay. The first thing was in my venue. Yeah, it was an Earl venue. Right, so all of the paraphernalia that we've seen, which we've been in nighting that you can find on TikTok or Facebook or wherever you advertise, they were all with fat man DJs and stuff like that. So you're saying that these events, are they paid events? No. What happened? If someone booked the venue for their christening or for whatever they do, they write what they want to write and they would take the flyers. And even some of the ones that you showed there, we put those in and they didn't go through because we used up the tent thing. The tent. Yeah, so the advert was just clippings from previous things I passed on already. So just to boot up the advert, look excited. Right, see, because this is where you're confusing me. Okay, so I'm looking at page 67. You've got a flyer called 'The Real Advancement Friday'. It doesn't say nothing about 'You're welcome to my 60th birthday party'. When I look at some others on page 60, you've got 'Fund the Love Party'. You've got 'Saturday 80s and 90s', 'something party', 'birthday', 'mikey's evening', all this kind of stuff. You've got 'Sizzling Sundays'. That's not a part, that's not a, that doesn't come across as a party or party or, and these flyers you might say, but they've got all your names on and it's got your addresses on. So I'm asking you again, these event nights that you're having for the tent, which I'm not saying that these are specific to them, but are they more of a dance rave thing, like what we saw on camera? 'Sizzling Sunday', that's classical music, like old people, I don't want to say mature people. So it has nothing to do with kids. So they call it 'Sizzling Sunday'. And 'Down Solid', 'Down Solid' is not like young people party, 'Down Solid' is like big people, natural people party. Yeah, I do come from that era. Are you using outside promoters to do these flyers and to do these parties? To be honest, most of the times I just do it and I just do them myself. If someone asks me, I'll just do it myself. So it's not like you go pay to do it. So what we try to do is make the advert look excited. So you will see things on it that, you know, attract the type of people we want. If we want mature people, because we don't play, we don't do parties for our functions unless someone have a christening and they bring their kids. And most of that keep in the daytime, kids leave before nine o'clock. OK, so let's move on to the CCTV. Right, so complaints have been made from the residents saying that antisocial behaviour, noise and nuisance outside your venue. I take it that you monitor this as being... Yeah, that's the reason why I ask the gentleman if he know anything about the town hall and the venue in front of the town hall that go on until morning across from McDonald's and then the little place right there. So all these people that this gentleman is talking about, they coming from down the street, it has nothing to do with us. OK. And they finish at five o'clock. Right, and they're younger. So what you're saying is... And those are young people. And I couldn't mention the CIA. Sorry? Can I mention the CIA? So you're actually in the community of impact zone, your premises. So you're saying to me, not one of these noises or any of these antisocial behaviour, things that have happened. That's not the behaviour we can show in junk and people didn't happen from our venue. The only thing you might see is people walk around the same smoking area and the cab would stop right there and they go in their cab. And the security make sure that the traffic light is right there. So if someone is drunk, you can't allow them to get my tummy down in the road and car run over them. So the security make sure that they usher the people in the right place. Nobody ever come, no fight ever happened outside there. None at all. The first thing we make sure to tell the clients, we remind them that the police station is across the street. You know, there was a section inside there that anybody going outside to smoke, they leave their drink there. Because a lot of people don't like to leave their drink. I know. I can understand that. Yeah. All right. So. So now that you've got your CCTV installed, have you got any outside the premises? Just look down on the pavement outside or you can turn it to look down the road because obviously it's quite a busy road. You're looking at a license in the eventuality. This is not revoked at getting a 4 p.m. license. So you're you're trying to tell me that you're responsible operators now. So the CCTV that you've got inside, I'm sure it's on the tail and on the dance area and what have you. The second door. One outside. The second door. After you go to the first door, the second door right there is one. You can't see nothing. The face outside. Yes. So could you see the road? Yes. Is it possible to take like a five minute rest break? I appreciate we've been here. I just need to nip to the bathroom. Oh, you can nip to the bathroom. OK, but I will continue. That's OK. Thank you. OK. So very quickly, why did you want to remove the waitress service? The waitress service was one of your conditions. I'm the one doing the service most times. So how many members of staff have you? I have five staff. And you're the only one that does the waitress service. When it's not busy, I'm the one doing the waitress. No, the five staff is for the kitchen. It's for the kitchen, not upstairs. When it's busy, I get somebody in. I don't have somebody always. I'm the only one doing it. So when you have 20, what was it, 20 people you have sitting? That's when I bring in somebody. That's Monday to Thursday. Monday to Thursday I'm doing one serving because it's not busy. It's not busy? No. But when you have like a part? I have events. I bring in two people to join me. Right, OK. So if it's not busy and it's just you one serving, why would you want to move the condition? If you bring in people when it is busy. Sorry? Sorry, can I interject? No, not at the moment. When I finished, I will ask if anyone would like to continue on this scope. Please, please don't interrupt. I will give you an opportunity in a minute. When you say you're not busy and it's just you serving, why would you want that condition removed? Because you said when you do get busy, you hire people in to help do the waitress' service. When it's busy, I can't serve everybody. Of course you can. Why, if it's just when you're not busy, would you want that condition removed? No, the condition will be removed only Friday and Saturdays when we have events. But when we don't have events, no. It's fine. Now Rob. OK, sorry, I was just trying to help out there by bringing clarification. I'm just looking for the actual condition, but essentially. Sorry, I'm looking now. I can't see it, but I know it's here. Essentially, the condition says the customers are only allowed to partake of drinking activities if they partake of a full meal. And that's where the premises was previously a restaurant and for it to operate as a bar, it would need that condition removing so that people are not compelled to purchase food. Right. Thank you for that piece of clarification. Not sure if I completely agree, but Steve, would you like to? Sorry, it's the police very often impose it on restaurants because they don't want restaurants turning into bars. Which this one seems to be doing at the moment. That's my point. So, OK, thank you Rob. I understand what you're saying, but I also, as I said, there are quite a few things. Today this is a review of application for the current premise license. Any changes to these conditions, as we said, will be under a full review, which will be after this. At the moment, the premise has no tenants left and will not happen until next year, after January. And there is a condition on the license that will supply alcohol to people, a waiter or waitress service only, which will only be a salivary to a table meal. But it is basically in effect, no events that can take place. It has to apply by the rest of the conditions until January next year. Right, I've got there. OK, thank you. Thank you for that. I think I've just got one more question. You are aware that your residents or some of the residents that live on that road are not happy with what's been happening. And I know one of my colleagues, I think it was Council Lofthouse, asked Rob how you will be planning to work and coexist with the residents. Who are your neighbours? So in your words, can you tell me how are you planning to work and coexist with your residents to help keep them happy and to make sure your business is staying compliant at all times, especially with regards to your premises being in the CIZ zone and keeping life nice and tidy with everyone? Like you said before, like Bob said, my restaurant is soundproof. If he can come, if any of them can come and we play music very loud and then they'll go across the road and see if they can hear the music, because I have done that several times. I couldn't hear the music when the DJ is on. It's soundproof. You can't hear from the door because you have a double door. I don't think there's ever been a mention of the noise inside or the DJ inside. Am I correct? No, they did. Even with our windows and door shut, we can still hear the music, particularly the bass, the DJ or MC, even with windows and doors closed in our apartments. Right. Okay. And that's all the time? That's when they're hosting events. When they're having events. Please continue. That's it. What we'll do is to make sure we turn the music down only to be heard inside and not outside the premises, to be able to allow them to, you know, to sleep. Yes. Interesting. Because I saw your noise management plan. I mean, is there any way that you would consider getting a noise limiter and having the council come and monitor it to make sure it's at that level? I control the music and the music is not loud outside. None at all. I go across the street where that little thing, and I sit on that thing across the street. There's a panel there, and I make sure I sit there sometimes for 20 minutes. Even when the door opens, there's no noise coming from this venue. So the noise that this gentleman is talking about is not from that venue. From it. And I am the person who control like that there. And, you know, as you say what we could do. Yes, we would, we try to see if we could let most of the residents aware of the idea that we have a function going on, event going on, in case people come out on the street, and you know somebody might be going into a cab and might be talking. So, and we always tell them on the microphone, leave and be quiet because, so, and people, these mature people so they're not unruly, you know, but in the future, we'll still go and we might drop a little leaflet in the boxes and all that. But we also try to invite the residents to the same venue, so they can see up front for their self or listen and see that we are well being proactive in. Yeah, including, including, you still didn't answer my question. So, if we were minded, not to revoke or not to put certain conditions on, would you be opened to the idea of getting a noise limiter. Yeah, no problem. Yes. Okay. Right, so that's me, I'm finished. Excuse me, thank you very much. Right, so are there any questions for, questions? Hi. So one of my questions is regarding the events that you have which I appreciate you do have them on three occasions. Is it your intention to continue to promote your paid for events, i.e. four, five pound entry events? The reason why I ask is that, yes, we do have pubs and a club, you know, further into Stratford, but not in our local vicinity. People therefore can come down the road, and then enter your venue. So my question is, is your intention to continue to promote paid for events in the future? I don't understand, with respect to the paid painting that you're talking about, you might know more about that than me, but what I'm trying to say to you. We don't have regular events every week, because we have a limited amount of 10, and then 10. So what we try to do is pace them out. So we might use two in one month, we might use one in one month. So the regular thing you're talking about, I don't understand that, because we can't keep, if we only have 15, we can't be keeping every month, like, for the whole month we do four, because then we wouldn't have done four. I don't think that's the question he asked you. Would you like to repeat? He was talking about the payment. The paid events. Pay on the door. Pay on the door. So would you like to repeat that? So on the marketing material that we've submitted that's in the public domain, you're promoting certain types of events, as the Chair has described. Is it your intention to continue to both promote these and encourage patrons to pay for entry to your events in the future? I don't want to answer that question, because I don't understand you, and I don't want to say it. I can probably help out there, Chair, if I may. Thank you. Go ahead. Thank you. Okay. I was going to cover it in my summary, actually, but based on the premises license holders' intention of the hours for the variation, full variation, it would be my recommendation that she adds an additional condition into the operating schedule, giving a last entry time to prevent migration, as Mr Mills says, that then you don't get people coming from other bars further afield knowing that this is a later venue and they can rock up any time they like. By having a condition with a last entry time, it mitigates that problem. Okay. Thank you, Rob. Has that answered your question? Yes, thank you, Chair. Steve, did you want to say anything? Rob's right in what he's saying. I just hope his client understands that at the moment, this license still exists, and it's basically a sit-down by waitress at the waitress' service. I just want to make that clear again, because we keep going into the realms of what they want to do in the future. Yeah. They have the cover license. Okay. All right. Are there any questions? Liggo? I think the lady had a question. May I ask them? Do they realize a lot of your clients is parked in Bryant Street and they are fighting in there? You know, Bryant Street is just opposite you? My clients – I know Bryant Street. My clients – No, they come by car. They are not from my restaurant. All the people – No, no. They're excellent. I don't want an argument. Ask the question. Could you answer the question, and then we'll move on. Yeah, from their accent. Just like me, you know I come from Hong Kong for my accent. What accent is that? What accent is that? I must say, parking isn't a license issue anyway, so the question wouldn't actually add or assist the members in making a decision later. So parking isn't a licensing issue. It's outside the powers of the members to consider. Because we often have trouble with, from then, arguing, fighting outside my window. Then you call the police. I never dare call the police every time. First responders. No, from today, right? No, from today. And that will help the situation, you know? It will help you and help us. Right. Okay, so if there's no more questions for Vivian and her companion. Right, okay, thank you very much. I think Rob has… Is it? Is it? It's a review. Oh, it's a review. Yeah, isn't it? Well, both can do it. Rob, would you like to give a quick summary, please? Yeah, that's fine. Thank you, Chair. I'll not go over everything I've said. I'll try and do it via bullet points to make it as short as possible, Chair. Thank you, thank you. So I think we've exhausted the conversation of there are challenges for the business with the current business model. But as Steve has just said, the license is what it is now, and that's what's going to have to be complied with by the premises license holder. It was pointed out that there have been no compliance issues with this premises over the last two years until September. So the concerns from the residents group will be addressed as both parties from the premises have explained, and they'll work much harder to collaborate and work in harmony with the residents association. We've mentioned that they obviously have fully used up their entitlement of tens for this year. So any events that do take place will only be able to take place until 0200 hours. I think the premises license holder is more than happy with an additional condition for a last entry time, even on the current license. And I think that probably covers everything I need to say. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Rob. Thank you very much. Would you like to sum up? Yeah, really briefly, I mean, residents are very supportive of local businesses, particularly such restaurants and cafes, and we will continue to support as much as we can. However, in terms of our concerns, I continue to have concerns that it doesn't seem to be recognition of the noise or the disruption that's being caused as a result of their business function. We wouldn't be sat here had residents not had concerns and that's been supported by 69 individual signatories. And I appreciate that there was a compliance visit in September of 2024, yet previous to that, I don't believe that there's any evidence to prove that there has been conformity or compliance previous to the license going live about 18 months or two years ago. It's the residents position that we maintain concern regarding the licenses operating at the moment, that it is not operating fully as a cafe and restaurant with waiter or waitress service that it is actively promoting on social media, or through flyers that are available to be passed to friends and relatives, for paid on entry admission to, in effect, what has become a club, a nightclub or a rave, as the evidence has been provided, all of which is already in the public domain. Our concerns are that the public will interpret that as invitation to visit the cafe or restaurant for that very purpose. And therefore, our concerns just want to be heard so thank you so much for the opportunity. Thank you. Okay, um, thank you everyone. We are going to go into deliberations now, we will be making its day. I'm going to join the meeting you guys can go outside maybe go and grab a coffee or something, if you it's coming back you don't have to, because the decision will be coming out in five, five days, so you can go on you can come back. And if you're staying don't go too far, and we'll call you back. This meeting is now adjourned. Thank you. Thank you everyone for coming back we've made a decision, and it will be read out by the clock, Melissa. Yeah, so having missions written and all, including those of the residents, the licensing subcommittee have decided to suspend the license for a period of two weeks, so that the license form that can undergo robots training of the licensing regime by a beautiful training provider. There will be further conditions in place on the license and details of these conditions will be specified in the decision letter, with regents will be sent to the applicant within five working days. Thank you. Thank you, Melissa. The applicant responsible authorities and interested parties may appeal against the decision to the Magistrates Court within 21 days. Thank you everyone for coming. Rob, thank you for your participation. Thank you very much chair and members and officers. Right, lovely. Thank you. Thank you everyone for your, your, your stay with us today. This meeting is now agenda. Thank you.