Transcript

the interested parties of its decisions on each of the applications within five working days. Thank you. So that takes us through the kind of setup of the meeting and the election of the chair. Moving on to item two, declarations of interest. Do any of my colleagues have any declarations of interest? I do not, nothing to do with that. None for me either. Minutes of the previous meeting which were held on the 25th of September 2024. Can I take these as a fair representation? Agreed. Agreed. Thank you. Which now moves us on to the licensing application for a review of a premises license. It's at this point where I think I'm going to kind of take a steer from both applicants and from the police via a little bit of guidance from legal because there's obviously some of these discussions which are going to be related to ongoing kind of criminal investigation. So I would like to hear from both sides of what part of this proceedings they'd like to actually operate in private. So if I'm going to go over to Dave Watson first and then I'll come over to Mr Dads. Thank you very much, Chair. Just for your information, the trigger incident, the footage you're about to, that we wish to view and show, that is no longer subject to an ongoing investigation. That investigation has been closed now. That's for the information purpose only. Whether Mr Dads still requires or what requests that the video is shown in private, I'll leave that to Mr Dads. Thank you. Mr Dads. Yes, so good afternoon members. It's actually really nice to be in an afternoon rather than an evening. It is nice, isn't it? It is nice. Just to clarify, we are, I'm representing the premise license holder and the police. Yes. In relation to the CCTV, I'm of the view that we should still hear it in private as an abundance of caution. Just, sorry, see that in private. And only do it momentarily, go into private and then out so that it's there. Just in case, because we know that, yes, the security industry authority may still be making their inquiries and there may be some further matters arising there. I know at the moment that individual door supervisor who's involved is still active, not suspended. So, and they've had the details. So it looks like they're not taking any steps, but we don't know, but we have been given, or when I say we, the licensing authorities, everyone involved in licensing have been given a step previously that we should be cautious just in case there are criminal proceedings and we don't want to be contempt of court. So, um, that's all I have to say. Okay. Thank you. So, Sean Marks, I think just quite clear. Just to clarify that in terms of how this hearing will proceed, I think the, from the submissions being made by Mr. Dats, do you have an objection to the idea of the video being considered in private session only? In that event, I think that's fine. The rest of this hearing will proceed in public and it will only be that portion that will then be convenient for regulation 12 in private so that we have the opportunity to review that particular video. I take it that you want to take us through that video and what it shows. Yep. Okay. That's fine. We will reserve a portion of this meeting for that to take place. Thank you. Thanks everybody. Okay. So with that in mind, we are moved on to item number four, which is the licensing applications for review of a premises licence for the Swan at 215 Clapham Road, London, SW99BE. I believe at this point I'm going to bring in Justin who's going to introduce the review. Good afternoon. My name is Justin Atkinson. I'm the licensing officer. I represent the licensing authority. This is an application submitted by the Metropolitan Police which seeks to review the current premises licence for the Swan, 215 Clapham Road, SW99BE. Can you speak up a bit please Justin so that they can hear at the back. And if you can't speak, please make sure you indicate. Okay. This is an application submitted by the Metropolitan Police which seeks to review the current premises licence for the Swan, 215 Clapham Road, London, SW99BE, submitted on 27 May 2024. The grounds of the review is as follows. The Metropolitan Police has requested a review of the premises licence, highlighting concerns about management and security and a loss of confidence in management's ability to maintain public safety, written from disorder. And at page 30, annex A. The review application was initially heard on the 23rd of July 2024 at the Licensing Subcommittee hearing. The review application commenced its proceedings. However, during the proceedings, the committee panel decided to adjourn the hearing. The minutes relating to the hearing can be found at page 179-187, annex I. The adjourned hearing was scheduled to take place on 8th October 2024. However, due to omitted documents from the report map, the committee made the decision to again adjourn the hearing and reschedule for a date of 24th October 2024 which is now taking place today. The minutes for the hearing can be found at page 193-195, annex K. In attendance representing the application for the review are the following. PC Dave Watson, David Watson, on behalf of the Metropolitan Police, who has omitted the review application and who has a legal representative. In attendance of the licensee are as follows. David Das, legal representative, on behalf of the licensee of the Swan. I will leave the instructions for both parties to state who is in attendance. Good afternoon, my name is Gabriel Nelson, IPO on behalf of Metropolitan Police. PC Dave Watson, representing the Metropolitan Police. Yes, good afternoon again. I'm David Das, I'm a class R representative from the license holder and I ask the family to introduce themselves. Patrick Darling, DPS. Yes, speak up please, sorry. Danny Darling, assistant manager. Danny Darling, director of Swanburn entertainment. Thank you, does that complete your introduction Justin? Yeah, I do, I don't know, but I do know that there are other parties here who have made representation. I know that when we first came, 30 plus, in the second hearing I think there was some more, but as we've gone along we've lost some of the resident support, but they're still here in writing. Yeah, yeah, I can see it's a good turnout here this afternoon. Yes, so on that note, I'm going to just quickly ask you to finish up and then we'll come on to. 29 representations received against the application to review the premises license Swan pages 141 and 161. After 29 representations received, those who have confirmed attendance as follows, and it's Ms. S. Keogh and Peter Fisher. One representation was received when responsible license authorities support the application to review the current premises license. This was submitted by Paul Richards, responsible license authority who was present. The representation of the review application can be found at pages 165 to 165 on its page. The summary report can be found at pages 19 to 23. The review application can be found on pages 25 to 30. And representations against the review application can be found on pages 141 to 161. Do we have any questions from the committee for the licensing officer at this stage? No, not for me, thank you. It would be at this, so I'm not going to take any comments from the floor just at the moment, but you need to speak up. Just a process point. Process point? Yeah, I'm registered that I would be attending. I think I only heard two names, so it's just a matter of just just a clarification. What's the name? Sorry, what's your name? Sorry, Vincent Manning. Yes, yes. So I think if I did, yeah, this did also. Yep, is that correct? Yes, right, cool. Thank you for now. Thank you for saying your name. On that note, then I'm going to ask us to move on to so in the situation where it's a review of the application, it's the person who's brought it forward. So in this case, it's the Metropolitan Police, so I would come over to you, Dave, to ask you to go first. Sorry, I think it was our intention to show the video to the committee before this weekend. So you would like to request that we adjourn to go and watch the video before we start hearing the submissions. Indeed, indeed. Please describe. Yep, for me with regulation 12, we're going to convene this part of the hearing in Friday, and there is a room dedicated upstairs, and we'll just talk with you. Sorry, did you want to say something? Can we just clarify who would be permitted? I was just about to ask. Thank you, and I was just going to say to rest assured for the others to stay seated in the room. But again, for clarification, who is able to come and see that? I think the committee, it should be the committee, and I imagine that Mr Dass and his team will wish to also view that alongside seeing as you have parties to it. But everybody has sat in the back. We can ask you to stay where you are. And as I say, we will be back once we've watched the video. I'll just bring one. Thank you. Okay, so if we can ask those who are coming upstairs to view the video, we'll be back momentarily. Which don't we go now? So if we can exit outside of this, please. Thanks for bearing with us just while we have that kind of private session. So on this point, I'm going to come back over to the applicant and Dave Watson and your team, just to go into a bit more detail about why this is before this afternoon. Subcommittees. I took the video that prompted the presentations on the licensing. The premise is currently at the site of significant crime and disorder. Specific incidents include alleged spiking of both females. Sorry, could you speak up a bit? I'm Jeff. Alleged spiking of both female and male victims, fighting both inside and outside the premises, innumerable incidents of theft, as well as the video that you just saw. Please would submit that these incidents consist of serious criminal activity. Indeed, at one point in November of last year, the officer who brought this review was informed that the Swan was the largest site of criminal activity in the metropolitan police area. Incidents have continued since the previous hearing, as demonstrated by the record of thefts that occurred at the premises of the first of June, 2024 onwards. The police would therefore submit that it cannot be in dispute that the premises is currently presently associated with crime and disorder. The prevalence of crime also introduces a public safety concern. The police cannot be confident that members of the public, upon visiting the premises, can be kept safe from violence or spiking incidents, nor their personal possessions prevented from being stolen. As such, the premises is also failing to promote the public safety of objective. Finally, and albeit to a lesser extent, there is a public nuisance dimension to the present issue. Members of the public, indeed members of the own security and management team, have been fighting outside the house. This inevitably generates noise and disturbance for surrounding members of the public, residents and businesses. The Metropolitan Police, in response to this, therefore proposes three amendments to the existing license in order to promote the licensing objectives, as well as a schedule of proposed license conditions which will hand up to committee upon finishing my submissions. Firstly, the Metropolitan Police will request that a condition be imposed in independent premises. At present, so far as the police is aware, both the management and security teams at the premises are run by the same family. That has been the case in all of the previous intervention meetings and we haven't been corrected on this. Though the police accept that the presence of a family-run public house is a unique selling point of the premises business, there is currently too much scope for conflict of interest. For example, when the recorded incident that you were just shown occurred, the police had no point contacted by the premises. When a meeting did eventually take place, it was discovered that the event had actually taken place three weeks earlier. Further, it was only by the fourth intervention that the member of the management team who was actually at the incident met with the police. This indicates to the police that, given the close personal ties between the different teams at the premises, including and most importantly the management and security staff, there is an unwillingness to seek police involvement in incidents clearly requiring their attention. This reticence prevents the police from carrying out its proper role and as such leaves officers with no faith in the management act independently. The police therefore propose that a new condition be imposed on the license requiring that an independent manager be appointed to a supervisory position and oversee the current management staff. They would have authority over the running of the premises. We believe that this finds a correct balance between ensuring independence and competence in the proper running of the premises and maintaining the current family-orientated business model. I would raise the subcommittee, if we are wrong that the security staff is not owned by a family member, we would still submit that an independent manager is necessary because the management is currently dysfunctional and not enabling the police to do their proper job. Turning to this proposed condition, that being a new security team. Similarly to the management structure, the police also find that a family-run security team poses too great a risk of conflict of interest. Specifically where incidents do occur between the security staff and patrons, the management team, given their familial ties with the security company, are less likely to involve the police in order to protect them. We believe this is what occurred with regards to the serious recording incident which prompted the present review application. Therefore the police propose that the present security team be removed and a new independent SIA-approved team be installed by condition. And again similarly with my last submission, if we're wrong that the security team is not family-orientated, we would still submit that it's dysfunctional and requires replacement. Finally, we submit a condition be imposed to impose a reduction in the operating hour. The present operating hours are a significant generator of crime and disorder as well as issues concerning public safety and nuisance. The hours allow for patrons to become significantly inebriated and result in fights, thefts and potential for sparking. The police would therefore propose a condition that the operating hours be reduced to 2am. This strikes the correct balance between reducing the current scope for crime to occur while allowing the business to retain something akin to its current model by your nightclub. I'll turn to my final comments in respect to our application. The police would emphasise that at no point in the present present review application was revocation or suspension considered. Indeed up until recently officers had a good relationship with manifest staff. After the aforementioned incident occurred the police had several meetings of the premises to give them an opportunity to explain, offer improvement and present records of actions taken. This included additional wave training for staff. However on all occasions officers were unsatisfied with the level of cooperation and were met with minimal and unsatisfactory responses. This application therefore represents the final step in a long chain of communication between the police and the premises. The proposed changes are focused and targeted and seem to resolve the underlying causes of current issues. As such they would be appropriate for the promotion of the licensing objectives and should be granted. Thank you. It's at this point where I turn to the committee to ask any questions to the applicants. What terminal hour does Lambeth recommend for the particular district in question? I don't know whether you know the answer. I think the policy is 1am. I think you're right. Yeah okay thank you. I'd also like to hand up the list of proposed conditions if I could do so now. Thank you. Do you have any other questions at this point? Probably not. I think probably most of my questions are for the license holders. Thank you. I think we can consist of two pages. Just double check and you've got sufficient copies to make sure that all members have copies. Yes thank you. Just a copy for myself and services. Is there an extra? I think we might need to make some extra copies. Okay could you send another? We need another second page I think. Yeah I will say that I'm not having a go at that. I haven't had a chance to sit down but that won't affect today. So on that basis I think if there's no further questions for the applicant we'll move on to interested parties but before we would even come out to the people that have made representations I'll come over to Mr Dads. Did we take the questions from the police officer? I thought it was going to be your introductions of matters first and then we'd get into the questions of the police officer but I wouldn't have thought that's correct. That would surely come under a bit of a right to reply later down the line I think. What is it that would be Jermaine? I mean that makes sense to later. Yeah it's not a point to introduce yourself. It doesn't generally engage in artists to cross-examine each other. No I wasn't going to cross-examine but I can do it. You have in your agenda a number of topics. I know that people have seen the representations from members of the public and I know that some of the people here may wish to speak but I think it's testament to the good running of the premises that actually the premises of the public have turned out to support. We have quite a lot of members of the public here. Is everyone in support? I know last time I think the first time we had over 30 I know that the second meeting down slightly got cancelled today so people didn't have time to come. But I think that places a great way that certainly from the submission my friend made that the public have raised any concerns that there hasn't been. In fact it's the reverse. The public see us there as a garden being open, having a door supervisors outside running the premises well. So actually that's a positive. In relation to the premises itself it is a family run premises and I don't see the criticism that the police see. Actually it's been run for nearly 44 years, three generations. In relation to the designated premises supervisor he's been there 10 years and DPS is four years. As Patrick sits next to me, Patrick has a degree in management. He's very professional. Police have never written to criticise him as an individual or in the style of management as DPS. In four years he's been DPS or any criticism why he's been a manager. So just come here and just do a broad sweep of criticism about actually having any evidence. Because and I know you've rolled your eyes but I mean there is no evidence here in the pack regarding the designated premises supervisor falling below himself personally but falling below that standard and I'm happy to have any questions if you see that that submission is wrong. In relation to his brother Daniel who has been in the premises working at the premises for eight years and yeah again before this incident there's been no criticism of him either and in fact BC Dave Watson and I'm sure he will be happy to confirm it but in six years that he's been here he's had a very good working relationship with Ila, Chris and Daniel who are the directors of the business and in fact they've had a really good working relationship and I think that that's very positive. These premises have been licensed for 44 years in this family's name under the licensing act you will know coming up to 24th November soon so it will be 20 years so under the licensing act and this is the first review and the trigger for the review was that event that you saw upstairs on the huge day prior to that there was no intention whatsoever to call and review no there's no lectures saying we're going to call and review as I understand it no action plan other than there was a discussion in November about alleged spiking so they took that on board they that they engaged positively in November because they've got a good working relationship and in fact they keep on repeating to me today don't try to upset them too much because we want to work with them because it is important that they they want to preserve the working relationship but they don't want their hours reduced and they certainly don't want some of the things they've suggested and I hasten to add very quickly on a review it's not about policy hours if you were making a new application you'd have to have regard to the policy. Policy is out that's not for consideration today if you don't look at policy and say well that's what we would normally allow here because that's on a new application if we have the license the starting position is in effect what will be necessary and appropriate so it's all about the proportionality to promote the licensing objectives and it's not a it's not the reverse and the burden on obviously we have to reply. So in relation to the position of the premises there hasn't been when my learned friend talks about a number of intervention for meetings I think one was in November for the way you had nothing to do with this at all and then the very next few meetings were all to do with this incident upstairs so at any day they're not they're not been sort of a graduated yet one last year one six months one three months three of those meetings related to this incident which the premises were were dealing with and trying to assist the police with. Now about the individuals I've just mentioned and I'm really conscious that I try to read body language as well and I'm a bit concerned that there's this about the criticism of the individual this is what I'd like to say about the starting position is that the committee members should not establish instance of guilt in the future the regulatory committee and you as a committee are not here to establish that so everyone is innocent for proof and duty it's not a criminal form and it's not about punishment it's about forward-looking how we promote the licensing objectives but in relation to individuals I can tell all members that obviously Daniel is here I'm sure you'll answer this and Daniel's obviously come under criticism upstairs and here but Daniel's never been invited to a voluntary place interview he's never been arrested he's never been able to give his account of what he says has happened the police allege that he's punched someone he was saying no actually I've pushed someone away and you can hear him saying I'm here to help you and actually so there is a difference of opinion of what you see on that clip between the police and Daniel but Daniel was entitled instant till proven guilty it's a golden thread I'd really ask members not to try to establish any criminality in relation to Daniel that's right they were quite clear that that's not the role of this licensing subcommittee and it's and it's very much there in the papers as well so yeah I'd say it's because the public Disney and the public are here online and I think it would only be fair for Daniel for me to say that and you know that already thank you so in really say a couple more minutes as well please Mr Derns so in relation to the um home city itself um they have put in additional steps you've seen the action plan we asked the police to provide the Chris and Cad reports to the thefts but they've refused since then and now the theft reports are much reduced they still haven't provided but we say we've provided additional steps like cctv more poses more awareness we don't accept and I think what the police saying we're we're the highest generating crime premises in that whole look alone at one place and I think they were trying to reference the thefts and I said well you compared thefts in supermarkets thefts on London Underground but also the other point was I said well what about thefts that are outside are they related to us and we've not been provided that but in regards to the list they did provide for July August September they're hugely reduced as you know but also we've put other measures in place but we think that that might be because they've looked at the way that they report them and it's reviewed them to our premises we don't know because we've not been provided the evidence in relation to the incidents the spiking that alleged spiking then they went into spiking we've taken steps always to safeguard the public we have it's not true that we provide a welfare officer we have a we champion all our staff are trained and that we obviously do promote last seen objectives and lastly in relation to the door supervisors and I'll just cover that that's the last point without me thank you the it is they are employed by the Swan it's not an independent company door company is not managed or employed by a family member it's the premises that employ the door supervisors the there was the head door supervisor and I've forgotten the name yes that's it sorry Gary and he has we voluntarily suspended four members at one of the meetings and we offered input in writing whether they were going to be questioned or asked to an interview and we did that four weeks later because they hadn't been asked for an interview we said well is it right that they should be stopped from their employment and at least agreed that they shouldn't could go back to duty the one that we were unhappy with hits or the shot foot that person was let go so not returned the other three have including Gary returned to duties but we have not returned him to head doorman we have now replaced and and have another person who's head doorman but they are directly under the control of the designated premise supervisor they see him clearly as the boss he says and there is no discord in the way that that is managed the individual that we let go is SIA they are supposed to be and they are trained as you know sharing confidence we found we found ourselves that we believe that they felt the beauty we wouldn't expect so we never encouraged that behavior we wouldn't ever we've been there 44 years there's been no complaint to us prior to that we've done the right thing by suspending then letting go and the SIA we've cooperated fully provided details and they have not suspended that individual from duty so that individual is still out doing work and obviously they must take a view of whether now obviously that's a summary of where we are i've got lots more to say but i know you won't allow me yet but maybe later i do that might be taken under questions as well so if we can allow for a bit of committee now thanks very much for that uh summary mr dadds yeah so uh paul has indicated to me that he had uh made a representation on behalf of the licensing authority and uh we've clearly skipped his submissions and gone to yours um mr dadds um if if um i'm not quite sure about how to approach uh into this it just it makes it easier for them to roll up your submissions at the end i'm sure che if there's anything that is out of the ordinary your damages to it's apologies paul i thought you were going to be uh taken under the reps that were going to come in a bit later on so yeah sorry we can swing back over to yourself thank you for clarifying sean mark so if you hold questions for now committee and we'll come over to paul very good afternoon thank you chair um i did submit a representation in support of the application if you've heard from the police the application was submitted mainly based on the the event videos that we saw today um but going into that we need coming with what's not discussed my representation was based on the the public safety public nuisance and crime and disorder the prime stats that the police have submitted which is part of this bundle it it relates to to premises i know mr dadds you stated that it's uh could be outside etc but it's if they are on on record to show that it's been listed the premises and you'll defend that the looking at those crimes majority of the crimes were late into the into the early hours of the morning um with the license being until six o'clock in the morning what my three recommendations because of the incident the amount of crime that has been reported and the involvement of the management of this situation my recommendation is of the three points as well three points it's the change of security a change of management now what i would say in the change of management is that another level of management is put in place until the premises can demonstrate that they have got control and then that management level steps away so bring in an independent manager to review management process the sia's are replaced and that there is a reduction in the operational hours and what i would probably suggest is it's not in line with policy as mr dadd said i would say at least at two a.m that alone would probably possibly bring a reduction in crime in the early hours of the morning having a next level of management be it on a temporary basis or permanent which is up to panel um measures into place so this issue this will not occur again and i think those three recommendations that would promote the licensing objectives that ends my submission thank you mr richards an apology so i would have brought you in at the appropriate time i wasn't sure that i thought it was further down the agenda so before we then swing back over to the questions uh from mr dadd's come back to mr richards to the committee do you have any questions for mr richards at the moment thank you no thank you so on that note then we come back to mr dadd's and then it was uh the committee's questions was there anything from mr dadd's uh summary and submissions yes yes kick us off councilor bixby okay so my first question is to um this one team what do you guys think went wrong to be um your supervisor we know that um what you seen or haven't seen that something was from from the private hire vehicle or super clearly we say that um we don't have the full facts but on what we see we see that we moved into the vehicle though that's not necessary however um sorry mr das to interrupt you um i mean that stuff's on the paper so i just mean on a more general level like what has gone wrong in the organization to lead us to a license because yes it was the one incident but for me what raises alarm bells reading all the papers is the decisions to not call the police for a number of very serious incidents and you know i've accepted all of the stuff you've said about good interaction with the police in the past and they've been running for a long time they're obviously very well loved but something has gone wrong when there's these serious incidents that the police do not get called to and i just would like to know what the reason for that is i mean i've read there was some recommendation from the bid to not call the police i mean one that feels like a very odd thing for a bid to recommend um and also for that highly experienced and trained people like yourselves to come to that conclusion that that's the way to go to have these incidents and not report them i can just say i i think the um if you look at page 278 278 um we've got the report made from the start when you say not people please i can say that we we do and we've on record that we have called the police um when matters arise in relation to this incident that triggered the review the police weren't called that's accepted but let me explain why the police won't call it i know that you uh eileen can speak to you about what we said but what they're saying is that the police were saying to them that she understood it is that the um the police are stretches of resources try to deal with as many things as you can um without the need it's that that's clearly if there is a violence or if there is a new court in japan and you should call so i think that's accepted um but on the night um and patrick can confirm this his view was that he secured at the door made sure no one came in and what he saw and there was obviously a crowd of people he doesn't see what's on cctv because you're looking at someone has captured it there that's not what he sees it's only less than a minute and a half or very short and then they come back and as far as patrick's concerned that matter was resolved so he didn't see it all he's been told there's no need to call the police so that's why they didn't call the police because when he's he doesn't see anything over there there's a melee the person is put back into the airport let first and go and there's no further conflict there's no if the police were called and arrived there'd be nothing for the police to do so now whether that's a criticism but what we can say is that we've offered up conditions to do that going forward but ordinarily um if there is someone that um we had called is whether we've caught someone if we think that they're stolen the mob because what we pulled the police when it's been solved uh the police informed us after because the alleged victim had gone home and i think the next day that she may have may or may not have been spiked so on that night we weren't able to call the police because she didn't make herself nice to security just in relation to those i think there was one spike i get the ones where they've gone home and realized after obviously that's outside of your control but the one where the lady thought she was spiked and she was advised to get an uber it wasn't clear from that report whether the police were called what we did is that she we said we we would call an ambulance yes 999 999 she said no i want to take an uber i want to go to the hospital so we organized for that she went with her friends we recorded it and recorded it and obviously we assisted the police but it wasn't the case that we put her in a taxi and sent her on away absolutely not and in relation to one of these was a male as alleged he goes home he's found um he says he's found some strange place with no wallet etc but obviously that's after the you know i i get and i can say that we we don't have any problems with calling the police officer and i can say up to this bigger event we had a very good working relationship and never before that time have we ever been criticized and not feeling okay you did fine there yeah i'm gonna um i'm just gonna quickly move on because we've got quite a lot of questions we might get to we will have an opportunity to come back i was just gonna say that we we found a suspect one that we believe might be stealing phones we called police and informed them they said that they would no one would be attending i mean i i think it was kind of just on page 280 where it clearly states a new policy for calling and informing police if any incidents occur we are doing that but it's almost a it's a new policy so why wasn't that in place before no no it was there but i'm just what i've done is i've gone with adrian start with the licensing connect program is that to just confirm that and retrain every doorman has been retrained every member of staff has been retrained so we've just refreshed so to give you assurance it's not a new policy it's not it's a okay thank you chancellor braham did you have some questions um yes um i know you've argued about the um theft statistics but um uh they are still very high in um november um 2023 um you did have a meeting um about thefts with um sergeant watson and um the staff training um but um there was uh then a uh dip in the number of thefts but they seem to have gone up again um in any event they still seem quite high um why do you think this is um uh for example um i know in the conditions on your license um you do have to have a certain number of sias um have you been having the full contingent of sias and in particular on the night of the incident in question did you have your full number of sias thank you so in relation to the point regarding the thefts um i have asked the police to provide us the full details of that so that we could see whether they've what i've asked the police for the details that see if there is a direct correlation they didn't provide them um the um since um i've been bored with the review we've uh and with atrian start we've installed another um camera or monitor near the entrance so that anyone entering will see an image of themselves but we do have club scan so everyone comes in he's he's scanned with id so they know but we've also put a screen there that shows that they are entering and it's facial recognition so everyone knows it goes in we've got the id we've put in that after that november meeting we put posters around about keeping an eye out for you and we then we then had a um got the list and a new list for the june through to july and one phone was returned this one wasn't open on these five occasions when there's a report of theft and we've actually received email saying a phone was lost so not necessarily stolen but lost during the evening so there are a number of on that list we've got it swan closed swan closed swan closed one phone returned no theft reported now our gentleman said that he had his watch stolen we've checked the cctv we checked him coming in on the cctv with his watch and checked that when he left the premises he still had his watch so the point is is that whilst there might be the the fen figures are there we've said well give us the details and we'll look we'll see whether we're open for work uh closed whether it's actually someone's lost it but found it we give back quite a lot of things someone might report it to the police then report it to the premises we have their phone they come and collect it and then they don't go back to the police as we mentioned the police quite quite and then i need to answer the question about the door but just quickly before you come on to the other question i just wanted to give the police the right to reply on the kind of point about the lack of reports i would just like to address this and i appreciate where mr that is coming from it would be normal procedure for us to provide a redacted crime report but on this occasion give me sheer volume of my reports and it was at the time as well during the first review was being submitted it was only myself on team important people practically need to redact over 115 of our reports especially given that the number of the reports were submitted online so it would consist of information such as i attended this one had my phone between this time and that time then checked my pocket my phone and the rest of the information is personal information which wouldn't be submitted that's the that's that's the reason why obviously crime reports but so is the best one and it's mr dance okay thank you for that clarification should i come back to you so yeah coming so in relation to best we do it's no different when i came on the underground today it says watch out for you or belongs as big so we on the underground we don't stop the underground well obviously we have to take steps to make sure that we take id when people come in because it's particularly we're proactive with our security we ask people to be remindful of their belongings so we do take those steps in relation to the door supervisor question we generally have a cohort around 20 to 24 every night so the ratio is very high you've said door supervisors do you mean supervisors including the ones i mean fia yeah yeah but not just the outside ones so yeah in total we have generally we have 24 20 to 24 Friday and Saturday depending on the night but generally that's the number we have so it's very very high ratio so we don't skimp on that in any way and everyone has had retraining we've even had some some employee to go covert to look around not being dressed up to look to see the theft or anything like that so we've been doing some operations i won't speak too openly about it because we're in public but we are doing operations within the premises to look out for theft was there any other other questions council Fitzroy come in on one now yeah so mine is again still on reporting i just like someone just described for me your incident reporting system that you have now and what type of instrument incidents you would report and what type of incidents you wouldn't report so previously there has been in effect a resource supervisor either has a paper record keeping a paper record and it's written up but that's been historic now they have a system which is electronic that's what we're discussing connect there an interest i've developed that platform so licensing connect has a digital way of recording incidents all the necessary information you require and it gets then recorded then and there and it can't be edited or redacted it's a if once it's there it's permanent record it allows for the manager to update that record but can't amend the record so it's an accurate audit trial of any incident it also has a refusal register it has a visitor book accident book so it has all the components that one would need but it's like digital and also within it is a sounds like a sales pitch but within it is a training in relation to very small part wage sales serving to people intoxicated for all the findings that you need for the licensing act which has been done in conjunction with many in high fields so that it's an approved course let's raise an issue not an issue a question as these run under the understanding that connects live so can you speak yes apologies that connect system wasn't yet live at the premises that was our understanding it's like now it's only been the last 10 days or so it's it's a very new and very new system and it's not you can actually go online but it's not publicized because it's through testing but but it's live and they have the system another question on that um yeah just i guess in terms of ben stuff that gets recorded anything gets recorded whether it's a crime or not anything that you deem to be an incident at what point do you report i'm still a little bit concerned to the police i'm still a bit concerned about things like spiking incidents where perhaps the victim doesn't want to call 999 but you still got reason to believe that a crime has occurred on your premises what's your kind of policy on reporting incidents of alleged spiking well normally with the police they would want us to report that is normally a violence that sometimes the reporting is really having that relationship with the police about what they want to report um this is not the situation here but i have had it elsewhere where the premises have reported cannabis or smoking and i'm now getting this as a hotspot in the borough so the reality of it is is that they say well we only want things which are material to be just obviously spiking is serious though no i'm saying that could be i'm saying it depends on what it is but obviously our system is there so when um too far away normally a stepped approach would be to have a meeting with the premises share information you have and that's the position you would work through if there's any actions generally in relation to drugs or spiking or incidents you're not penalized a premises is not penalized for that it's positive to report i absolutely agree and and that is important because actually and and that's why i think one has to be very careful if that's been then used against the premises if they do report because otherwise you just won't have to be balding so that's not the point i was making my question is more my concern is that spiking incidents are not always reported as a matter of course we will report those so uh when that is now the new policy that all spiky incidents get reported to the police yeah sorry to interrupt the uh protocol for when an alleged spiking happens when the individual comes forward so this is something that we've said as long as i've worked at this one um where we first of all if they think they if they believe they've been spiked we take them out of the immediate situation so we've got first aid room by area and we take them to someone where they feel safe and because a lot of the time people threaten if they think they have been spiked and then 999 is often i've always called whenever spiking is reported to us alleged spiking um we we still call 999 a lot of the time if they with a friend they they don't want to be in the area that it's hard to keep them there against their will but we recommend they go to hospital and if that's what they do then we bring 999 back and cancel the ambulance um that's what you did on that occasion yeah um and that's that's that's not a new thing that's something we didn't try anything about until this all came about they happened i don't know on the instance there's been a number of that now all forward on the review but ever drawn to the attention of the premises and find out as a part of the review but i think that demonstrates that in fact that the premises are working with the police and we're not saying things will never happen and we don't what we do is that we respond to that and we've dealt with needs and regarding door supervisor robustly and we believe we put training in place we are as i say when you were talking about what reporting we have a reporting system a record keeping and we are openly share anything okay thank you was that uh council brain did you have any and then i'm going to probably take about five more minutes and then if i may leading on from um uh your questions about fia's and reporting um i'm uh concerned about at least your past performance regarding sia is actually in the premises because we have allegations of thefts and spiking and also people have complained about the inside being very crowded what steps were you taking to manage people inside the premises and um um well just yeah what yeah what i mean how many people inside do you have what were they doing um weekend we would have obviously over a weekend we generally have about a thousand people so we don't have any more than 500 at any one time um and and that obviously we have the club scan system so everyone searched everyone goes through club scan the shots plan is recognized as producing crime community services those that attend you have to give the idea we do have we know we have police officers with nurses with doctors they're professional professional people come to our premises very well liked very well liked by the community and in fact i think some of that question you might repeat some people that are here because people go to the fences and use the premises so and their experience will be i think a shared experience that it is safe to go yes we do we have had reports of theft some people replaced their phone lost their phone and we do have a lost property and we have a register for loss we deal with that the alleged biking is the alleged bike and we have approachable obviously we have also whether where that one of the incidents occurred we've looked at cctv someone's identified someone we've held that person held that person as a suspicion so we do do that so we are very aware i don't we don't say that we're crowded we obviously are premises that create psycho a carbon dancing in certain areas we um so we want to have that so created but the thing is we have door supervisors at every floor level well it's well managed and supervised and i think actually we are well loved as the premises not by the community but also by the patients that come so i think the level of people that we have over a year we may have a best part of 50 000 if not users of the premises so i think one has to take into account when we look at the ancient stud reports in the last year or whatever it's five incidents i know i'm not done playing the five don't get me wrong but when we've had over 50 000 people attend you know you have to then look at each that in proportion and how we respond we believe that no different to the police the police go out and police every day and the officers go out to do their best some of those officers don't and some of them think about they're dismissed or disciplined but like even your supervisor fouls their duty we do we take action but that shouldn't be a reflection on the manager here thank you did you want to come in at the point then um well it's not it's a different point did you want to say anything more about security um no it's on reporting really i've got one more little question but i will say probably give it this another five minutes or so okay could i ask um i know what your licensing hours are and your terminal hours which is 6 a.m what time do you actually close um at weekends friday saturday and sunday right over close at 5 a.m that's the way we close at 6 a.m we only open back on a sunday seven at the moment and we do allow people um meetings and you have to pay so generally you have to pay i think it's 20 pounds for for anything so there is a cost of entry so generally people that later it goes that the admission is less but we still allow some people finishing work or things what time do you start charging when we open from oh i see so you're not you don't open until 10. yeah okay okay um has that changed recently i mean in the last you know say five years have you always operated those hours yep four coverage open at 9 p.m the same finishing time but since covid it's 10 not nothing open but the end out thank you um i had a point i wanted to come in on and i think it was to do with patrick's uh statement it was on page 278 i just want to take a clarification to do with the transphobic incident um is that um patrick's statement is on 278 patrick's stuff no yes you're right sorry two so from 275 is the start of ages yeah i just want some clarification because it says it was the use of the female toilet by transgender male surely that's transgender female is that correct because if it's transgender male wouldn't they be using the gents hey that uh this is adrian studs report i don't know the um the reason why he asked because i've i've never heard of an all-gender toilet so just like some clarification on what that means we've tried we we uh we've tried there are some premises that have all gender toilets there it's gender neutral the term or inclusive so but we have tried that some people do not love so we we've in effect um what have we done now i spoke it would link into i've heard a lot about security training and all that kind of stuff so i just wonder in response to this incident has there anything been and i've seen that the support from lgbt patrons have come along to the pub so i just wonder has there been any equality diversity particularly around sexuality and gender for sia staff or jet staff in general it could encompass disabilities as well yes some customers we got we've got more complaints that they felt uncomfortable about washroom and so we've had si that now let one person in at a time because there wasn't people could wait to then use the cubicle something we're trialing yeah because i think obviously yeah but something like all gendered i think it's quite a new term so i think it would be an interesting yeah the stuff about the training and support on that um and then the other question i was linked to adrian's as well which i think was on 283.9 uh about cctv uh will be expanded to include the entrance of the venue i just wondered why it wasn't before yeah in fact it's not atrian's does report that that's it that's the licensing you can say why it's there i suggested to the premises where i went i found that if people have club scan obviously they take the id you take a live picture photograph there um i found that actually if people see themselves on the screen well it just reminds them that the quality of the image of being captured and that you are there so that was put there for that purpose i suppose my point was then why wasn't the cctv at the entrance of the venue before no no there's always a sorry it's this it's additional near the club scan okay so a different monitor but there is cctv at the entrance too it's just an additional one sort of when you're scanning in and you're being searched it's even there's a monitor there that you can see you're being searched it's always been cctv but the addition is the monitor as well an additional camera okay thank you for the clarification um can i just add to that do you search for weapons what steps do you take to search for weapons everyone is body body search there's females to search females and they search for weapons drugs drugs we've luckily never had an incident with a weapon but it's always checked for that's why we have cub scan too because obviously as you know that acts as a big deterrent give your id up before you enter okay thank you thank you i'm conscious of timings and i know that we need to hear from some representations from the floor as well committee was there any other questions you'd like to ask at this stage thank you um moving on to the uh rest of the agenda um so this is where we can ask interest other interested parties who uh come up and sit up front and address the committee given that there is a lot of you i think we were going to cap this uh was there anyone specific mr dads that i think you want to speak who were in support of the venue i know that i've spoken instances but we need to have it verified justin that they have spoken or they've been has anyone indicated to you justin that they're wanting to speak here this afternoon i think i i saw vincent dr vincent manning yeah last time we were here i spoke to him very briefly i never spoken to before that i've spoken to you today but i know that he was keen to speak okay and the other people are here i don't know if i've met before so i don't okay justin was there anybody else who's indicated from no just all i had was those who indicated they were attending not to speak but i do have a list of names so they announced themselves i can confirm here well at this stage this is where you can come up and address the committee if there was somebody that was wanting to speak for up to three minutes either in support of the application for the premises uh to be reviewed or even in support of the venue as far as i understand it's only people who've made representations that we have the names of okay so should i just come up yeah so yeah do you want to come and yeah sit there but don't worry we won't start until you get okay three minutes so hold tight if you can sit in that chair because then you've got your own little big button you've got your own little lanyard thing if you could just introduce yourself as well when you start for us again please for the sake of the minutes and three minutes from now yes my name is dr vincent manning i'm a patron so i'm going to clear that interest i like the placement and it regularly when i'm in town i'm also the chairman of the residence association which is covers the area uh of the estate that stockwell is actually part of that stockwell gardens west but our community centre also serves the wider stockwell area so studly estate stockwell guard deceased um i i would refer you back to the letter i sent it wasn't massively extensive but i'm kind of going to say similar points to what i said there i just want you to know but i meant every word of that letter i'm very familiar with with local venues including gay venues i'm intending this is one of them with wealth and one of the safest values that i've ever attended personally i wouldn't go there in fact it's the only it's one of the few places i go to these days because there aren't very safe places to go especially and so i'm going to show you i wouldn't be tolerated an environment that was either unsafe the other thing i want to emphasize is that it's extremely well run in terms of the management of drugs and we know that that's a that's a problem for us we know that drugs are rife we've had issues in the locality with drug use and drug users um and i'm very alert to it the way in which this one eats people who are under the influence of drugs out is very impressive and i can tell i can tell you that and i think it's also something to do with the fact that people who generally want to go to venues where they know they can access drugs or use drugs i think probably just don't go there because it retains what i would call a traditional pub atmosphere and i think there's a social good for that there's an actual social benefit in that lastly in terms of the neighborhood i can assure you that if the swan was regarded as problematic we would be up in arms about it we had a very long running battle over the retention of the old laundry community centre which went on for about 10 years which we had to battle to protect it as a venue the news is we've now had a big refurbishment working with hide and it's operative as a venue so i'm aware of the issues that pertain in terms of running a venue a little bit but what i'm saying is we've got a very strong residence association and i can assure you that we would be up in arms overall when we consulted the community people were very positive about it fond memories family stories and and also largely felt that it enhanced the area rather than detract 10 seconds all right one last point yes we also know this is not evidence-based obviously not a policeman we know there's a lot of problems around Stockholm tube station with the theft of phones we know that i also know there's a big problem with the robbing people at cash points and so it's in camberwell partly because my work for people in the charity that i run so we we know that there are problems in the area our sense is that especially when it comes to that very long as the phone says when people get their phone stolen probably just told me the other night when you get robbed or your phone is stolen you have to report that it's stolen somewhere for insurance purposes so i i was i'm quite surprised by it we know there are problems in the area if you're going to close this one or reduce the size and they're not suggesting that cross cutter other places as well thank you very much dr manning um unless there was anybody else that's made a representation i should highlight as well that the representation can be found on pages uh i think it's in there a couple of times isn't it but i found it on 148 and 149 should the committee want to refer back to it um there's nobody else i think from the floor that was one to speak that has made a representation what's your name sir stephen keel let me just check if you're stephen stephen stephen keel yeah yeah yeah do you want to come up and address for three minutes so we've just got to check about uh because it's only you've only have you can only speak about the rep the representations you kind of made within your pack but here you go three minutes starting from now but give a brief i live within 25 meters after i've been living there for 40 years i've never ever seen a couple of hours so forth and i think what's being said today a lot of it being exaggerated and um i just want to highlight that i've been there for 40 odd years and the security is so strict if i put knocks i will be getting it out that shouldn't be that's my energy it was today thank you very much thank you um okay well without any furthermore representations i'm just gonna say was there any questions that you wanted to ask either of the comments to them no sure yeah the only thing i think that might be helpful perhaps that's to address the suggested conditions advanced by the police yeah and that is also to talk to the hours element and the security range yeah i was going to come back one of the big page list of that is conditions if you need more time to formalize your response to the conditions you can take we can take a break i need to get some more because i'm yeah what happened to the uh i haven't um so i do need a little break for that but i um i've only got this before i arrived i that's what i upstairs yes really think that i need to spend five or ten minutes by just running through to be sure that i can make clear representations to you yeah that's allowed the quality of arms it would be fair to have the police also focus their submissions or closing submissions or mr dasmay won't wish to say um but if you could deal with that as if they are simply closing submissions you'll make to roll up everything including observations you make about the conditions mr so okay okay perfect so what short five ten minute break and then we'll come back to for the kind of want a better word closest additions from both parts is 10 minutes adequate for you that was going to be my question am i able to get a drink upstairs so i think dev services have gone to get us a top up of water and such if we say to be sure come back a quarter past four is that does that i think that sounds fair all right so we're just we're adjourning just for about 15 minutes or so so please don't go anywhere you can you don't need the building move uh to i believe i think we're going to come to mr watson your representative last in terms of as a kind of summing up and if any other questions that the committee might have but i think be broke to for you to have a read of the conditions i believe mr dadds is that correct and if you have any kind of comments on that as well as bringing in a kind of short summary fish but ordinarily the one that has the most should go last i should have been so i'm quite happy to comment on the conditions and then the police close and i close but it's an fte i would have thought if the police have brought it's the applicant that tends to go last and in this case if it's the police is that um there is necessarily any particular precedent but that said um what i'm concerned about is having um you know to improve and i'd rather that we avoid that if you feel that you need to come back on some points that are right by the applicant then that's fine i think it just flows if perhaps if you just attend to five minutes if there is a need which is pressing and you've obviously got permission then yeah thank you normally give because i've got some legal submissions i want to make which may take a little while so i do want to cover and i was going to say a kind of five minute max kind of thing from both sides really as we're kind of going to this but if there's some legal i say no more than 10 i won't take it if i don't need you but i've got some legal points i'd like to cover and then somebody came back so i won't find not to do okay let's make the point that mr does of course in terms of what the applicant is seeking um if your focus perhaps could be on those narrow points arising out of what the police have advanced and in the way of resolving this matter and you've heard from mr earthen pole who suggested that they are supporting the police in relation to that so it just seems if your fact if your works if your response could be on those matters that may hopefully shorter points they've read all the papers i was just yeah very much so internalize everything that's in the agenda and you know so i think any committee members have repeatedly read the papers i think in preparation for this year it's been a you know they've certainly come prepared so yes if i can i hope it's not within my closing time to address the case you just found me first to cover these i don't want that to be my clothes okay give you five minutes on them if i just say on these conditions um the position number one and number two three four five and six we already do any so if you are so but then there's no objection to that then in relation to number seven we already have uh have started to have done some we have three and sometimes we have um at the end of the night there's sometimes six so we will get three more cameras so we're agreeable to seven as well um obviously we we conscious that maybe you can put to save six the reason why not not all the cameras we have everyone out see the main i would say six um but in relation to uh eight number eight we already do that knowing we say that that's not necessary we don't agree to that not heard any evidence of any issue arising of admittance or re-emittance and we generally do have people coming up to four o'clock it'll happen a bit later actually but we make sure that id is taken we charge and we make only people who are appropriate i mean so that no if anyone's pre-loaded any signs of intoxication in relation to number 10 um the first uh sentence security employed by the premise must be sa accredited full stop after that we agree the independent we say not it's not required for the reasons i can't say how they're wrong we we are family-run business we this is sa accredited i mean so um and she employed as she employs the staff that door supervisors that the team some of the team members have been there in excess of 15 years in that they know the patrons that know the areas they know the challenges they're very effective um we do pop up uh from time to time as you heard most weekends we generally get about nine in from a company what we have so we do have some degree of flexibility and we do absolutely dependable the dispersal policy number 11 we agree to in relation to the 12 we say it's not necessary um the reason for that chair members we we have taller there's always someone in the toilet area we don't believe that that's required all the staff are around and you heard about the arrangements for different for toilet facilities um and number 13 happens as as it does anyone entry must be searched number 14 we do have a challenge 25 policy but please bear in mind that everyone must go through club scan to get in you have to have your passport for photographic identification so we do have so challenge 25 i think is pointless because of the club scan but we do have refusal registers still because obviously if someone presents the detoxicated roommate we can use what because of age we've got to be intoxicated um and um the sign i don't know whether the sign is really appropriate because but we we only admit those are of a majority age at um so but in any event we're quite content to have the challenge 25 to be able to challenge um so that's that on my closing submission um i am from margaret said i i i'd like to just repeat again what the case of little and the city of glasgow uh case the lord okay said the process of review is therefore directed to impose to impose a penalty which is unlikely to occur so in other words you know we should be a punishment to reduce our hours it should be looking at the trigger event we say that that we know what the trigger event is we don't believe that it is right to reduce our hours because of that trigger event we've taken action we've addressed it we don't believe that that will reoccur going forward we've retrained out the staff we've re-emphasized the need to enhancing problems approach de-escalation these are professionals that go through independent training and accreditation and checks likewise um i do note and i only note softly on at the point that that the police have not charged anyone interviewed anyone dsa have not suspended anyone and it wouldn't be right to from the video clip to um proportion any liability or blame but certainly not but the um dps and the point about family-run business i repeat 44 years at license under licensing at 20 years this is the first matter that's really have no formal action plan from the police ever before and before this trigger there's never going to be a review as a although or anything like that in fact pc what's for me six years of good working relationships and i emphasize even though we're here we we really do pc what's and want to work with you and work with your sergeant and to promote licensing objectives as we do with everyone but we don't want our hours reduced it would be wrong for this to be used as a way of reducing our hours it's very important to us very important to our customers very important to our business and we do since that event now it's been six months there's been no occurrence going forward we don't believe there will be now in relation to proportionality your note that within the guidance statutory guidance it is about taking a step there's no more than the necessary proportionate and that it would be disproportionate to remove our hours i would say there's a less draconian step which is the conditions which we've offered in in summary review should be quite targeted forward-looking and proportionate to what is being achieved that's all i'm going to say on the law on the backs i we've got a page 282 the footsteps and you'll see that they're divided i can say that there's gone back upstairs so i don't want to offer that i and i wasn't quite clear on the marking that you would require what i think is required in relation to them but we do that's normally what i say um and that is make sure that um people who use that toilet music and they feel comfortable instead to do so um in relation to these conditions that is all that's required so number eight should be removed it looks required we have done the retraining etc i would say very briefly you've heard that this is local resident support no one against no local councilor against 44 years no review that's been there 10 years but management degree very professional never been criticized before never in the it no suggestion that there's any culpability or harm is done and should there be anything like that he loves his business as the family loves their business we hope that we also love community we have great relationships with the police and want to continue this trigger event shouldn't be a spoiler for that and we've got two generations of Irish community that come to the premises love the music professionals use our premises the incident since the incident we've retrained our staff retrained the door supervisors dismissed a member of staff reassigned the head doorman carried out and worked with the sia who have kept everyone live and active not taking anyone off but fully cooperated we are a family-run business it would be absurd to in effect say that someone else has got to come in independently to do that that it would be disproportionate because we've been running for 44 years we are running it professionally because of this trigger event you would have expected to see either action plans or a graduated approach to enforce a stepped approach and on that basis it would be because of that trigger event i know that there are other matters complained of or haunted but some of those weren't reported to us and that some of the responses that we've done to those have been professional where we have reported taking our actions and the last thing i would say from closing is that we've had over 50 000 visitors and customers and we ask you to look in proportion to what we do and how we do we believe our premises and i hope everyone will agree here that is safe it is a good environment we are professional we want to promote the licensing objectives we do realize things will happen but we believe we do respond professionally thank you mr dance i don't think there was any other kind of comments or questions too you want to comment on another one yeah yes um could i ask um for the clarification of the committee or me anyway um you've said um that um you agree agree to most of these conditions proposed by the police these are in addition to the ones um proposed um by your secure your uh security expert man yes on page 282 yeah okay thank you thank you council right okay on that note um sergeant watson and your representative did you want to thank you chair yeah i'll just address two preliminary issues if i may uh the first was mr dad's very uh discussion of there may be privilege you can go in relation to the matter that we showed in the video and would um uh and subcommittee's attention to the statutory guidance by addresses this matter directly i'll just read it out for yourselves um so it begins there's a subtitled reviews arising in connection with crime and it continues the news are part of the regulatory process introduced by the 2003 act and they are not part of criminal law and procedure there is therefore no reason why representations giving rise to a review of a premises license need to be delayed pending the outcome of any criminal proceedings some reviews will arise after the conviction in the criminal courts of certain individuals but not all in any case it is for the licensing authority to determine whether the problems associated with the alleged crimes are taking place on the premises and affecting the promotion of the licensing objectives so i would submit to the subcommittee that taking that into account there is no need to concern to concern ourselves with criminal proceedings you can come to a view in respect to commercial license objectives and that takes matters no further um this the the second preliminary issue is uh there was my learned friend raised the issue of a club scan being used that was emitted from the proposed conditions we would request that the premises accept that to be included it was already on the license if it isn't then uh i i find instructions that it isn't on the license and then finally our terms and substantial points in response to mr dabs um so mr dabs earlier stated that representations from members of the public in the basic student roles they went as far to describe it as a beacon and the police would submit that this is directly contradicted by the available workers a well-run business would not have over five pages of theft reports you can find that at page 188 193 of the video that the committee had cited at the beginning of the hearing and the spiking and assault incidents discussed by the subcommittee during questioning that's an indication of the public's view of the premises is the number of ports that have been filed secondly mr dads raised the fact that the police had never written to criticize mr dowling as a designated premises supervisor firstly we would submit that the conditions proposed in this review do not relate to the dps specifically he may remain in place secondly the police have detailed that on several occasions and principally on the main event which prompted this review police were not called nor alerted of criminal activity mr dabs ought also sought to portray with that also sort to portray with the dps that he did not phone the police on the night of the video shown he stated that mr down was unable to see the incident through the melee and felt that the and mr dowling had felt that the issue of himself however at least four members of security staff and one member of the management team were involved in the incident this only goes to show the dysfunctionality at the heart of the communication between the management and security staff and accordingly any and orderly in response to that any communication with the police so they can respond to the event indeed on the night in question and in respect of the incident the police were unable to locate the victim nor identify him and this because the premises were unable to assist and cctv did not clearly identify him this only goes to show the negative effects of the premises current management on the police's ordinary operations further in respect to the submission that did said there was no need to call the police in respect of certain incidents the police would submit that that was never the case and in fact the wave training provided by the police in november 2023 which was referred to in questioning staff were expressly told of the need to call the police when an incident occurred further in respect of the incident in question mr dad confirmed a single door supervisor would be suspended however as we saw in the video multiple members of the staff were involved and we can also confirm just for the committee's clarification that the sia investigation in respect to that is still ongoing should have been finally yes can you yeah if you could please finish um uh this is that submitted that the police only had meetings in relation to spy kings and the incident in the video but those were the exact events which prompted this review that was why this review was brought the police accepts that the premises was very was previously very well run for 40 years now that doesn't change his lack of confidence in the management following these recent events finally my final submission on this mr dad addressed the number of thefts and he compared it with the premises he compared the current premises with thefts taking place at supermarkets and all on the underground and i would submit that that's just comparing apples or oranges really and this is what the police have done one looks at page 198 of the bundle we need to compare it with other equivalent premises in the area and that shows that the crime at swans far exceeds similar establishments and very briefly composing remarks forming the police have taken an extremely tailored approach to this to this particular license it was three major conditions to be changed management security and the hours a list of conditions to be proposed we've never considered provocation we've never considered suspension rather it's been a targeted and tailored approach to the underlying causes of the issues we still believe the premises should be run as a family business however they should have an overarching supervisory management body therefore we would submit that premises can still run akin to its current position but with additional conditions imposed please satisfied with my submissions thank you unless there was i'm just going to come to the committee first was there any kind of comments or questions from cancer's brave fitzroy no um i know you did have your hands up mr dad's but so i'm going to be very quick can i just because that that's the danger of going last because there's a couple points that i think i need to get a right of reply but i think i will keep it no more see i reckon i could do it in two minutes very cute i do my best very good thank you um i'd ask you to look at um 11.23 that was the point i was made it's not about property i've been that you shouldn't establish in some security so i won't read it out uh in relation to the um the dps point the issue that i raise is that it is well because we have over a thousand people and we we do have matches arise we know that every guy's friends as well how you respond the trigger of them was the march and my my learned friend raises the issue about dysfunctionality in communication but we have uh we've accepted that it didn't go right on the night we've accepted that things could have been different and improved so we've accepted that and we have we thought we've given new training three pressure training so it's not that we've carried on and done nothing about that we've actually accepted it we did suspend and in relation to the suspension we suspended four people one originally but then the following week four four and then we sought the police system issues that three could come back and they did after four weeks and the very last thing i've got is that the wave training in the november at least the bit about the uh bid i'm sorry but the bit about bid the bid chris is here and chris believes that that's what she was told about trying to deal with things yourself even calls the police to the minimum what that's her view but in relation to the wave training about always calling the police that was about spiking and that is we always do call the police and you've heard from evidence every time there's an allegation spiking that that training says you must always and we do and we have thank you thank you very much okay so the committee now uh will set for deliberation so we ask uh you are welcome to leave at this point those who've come along and support but by all means you can also wait we don't know how long this will take at this point uh so we just ask you to kind of sit comfortably and we'll be back with you in due course thank you very much okay thank you everybody thank you for bearing with us while we had a good discussion during the adjournment and and the decision is as follows the licensing subcommittee has decided to defer its decision on this application for five days commencing from now the 25th of october all parties will receive written notification of the determination and reasons within the five days so from that point it's just uh i can conclude the meeting and say thank you very much to everybody for attending and yeah you'll be notified within five days thank you very much everyone [BLANK_AUDIO]