Transcript

proper first of all the introduction of the committee and the officers first of all I will introduce the well the members of the subcommittee will introduce themselves then I'll ask the officers to introduce themselves so I am Councillor Adrian Gardon. I am Councillor MNI, Councillor for Knights Hill Ward. Thank you Councillor Douglas. Right officers would you please introduce yourselves. Good evening my name is Justin Atkinson I'm a Licensing Officer. Good evening I'm Selina Weahy and I'm the Legal Advisor to the committee this evening. Good evening my name is Paul Richards I'm the Licensing Manager acting as a responsible licensing authority. Good evening everybody my name is Kaios Moore I'm a Democratic Service Officer and I'll be taking a minute for this evening. Good evening everyone my name is Leokim Mobika and I'm a Democratic Services Officer. Are we there? Is that it? That's fine Chair. Excellent thank you very much. So the next thing we do is to elect a chair. Will someone please nominate someone to chair this subcommittee meeting. I'd like to nominate Councillor Gardon. Yeah would anybody second that? I would second that. Right either I'm on I am now the chair of this meeting so may I ask all the members of the committee to confirm they do not have any pecuniary interest in what we're going to be discussing. You may shake your head. Thank you Councillor Linnane and Councillor Dogus. I can't hear your no. Do I take it as... Councillor Dogus. Do you have any pecuniary interest? You don't have any pecuniary interest. Thank you very much. Right moving on. The minutes of the last meeting they are... in fact you have got pages... I will find pages. Does anybody have any points to raise on the minutes as published? No. Well I do. So I introduce the case and introduce... I beg your pardon? Not at this moment in time just so. So it will be on page one of your documents that were sent to you or that will be online and apologies chair what is the... You struck me name wrong. Apologies sir. It's the only error in the minutes I would suggest. Apologies I will make sure that I never change. Just for the future. So that's the minutes so we now move to the main item of the evening which is licensing applications for a summary stroke expedited review under section 53A of the Licensing Act 2003 dirty blonde 642 Wandsworth Road London Southwest 83 JW. Now before I move on to my opening remarks about it may I ask Mr. Dad who is here. You are here. A question. Mr. Dad? Reveal yourself. I'm here sir. Thank you very much. May I ask who can please tell us whom you are representing? I'm representing Dirty Blonde Lounge Limited. Is there a person related to that? Yes I have a few introduce yourself. Yeah my name is Balin Ismail and I've been the manager and Ismail. Mr. Ismail. Right Mr. Ismail. So you are the manager so we don't have a license holder or a DPS that you're representing? No sorry sir so that is absolutely clear. He's the general manager but he's also a director of Dirty Blonde Lounge Limited so I'm representing the premise license holder and we have a director here as well. Who is the premises license holder? Dirty Blonde Lounge Limited. A company can be the premises license holder is that right? Yes that's right sir. Legal people. Would you please confirm to me that that is the case? Yes that's correct. I think there's some confusion I mean Mr. Dad can assist. I think that there's been talk of a transfer application that may have been submitted which might be the reason for the confusion between who is the premises license holder this evening. So I wonder if Mr. Dad if you wouldn't mind perhaps just clarifying the situation for committee this evening? Yes thank you. So chair I'm David Dad I'm representing the premise license holder and there has been a transfer of the license to Dirty Blonde Lounge Limited who also are the lease holder and have been a lease holder for a number of years and that application was given to the local authority yesterday and therefore it has an immediate effect. Right that does clarify that to a certain extent. May I ask the police we have a police representative here are you happy that that sounds okay with you that we can proceed on that basis? Good evening chair. As today the police have not received this premises license transfer yet. We've received notification that it was being sent but today we have not received it yet. Right well Mr. Chairman can I just come in there it's really not for the police to have an opinion on whether we proceed or not with the greatest respect and applications being given to the local authority the licensing authority it's for them to then circulate as a matter of law transfer takes a place immediately on giving it's not when it's received it's when we give it and we gave it yesterday and therefore we are the premise license holder and whether PC Watson or anyone else has a view on it I'm sorry to say that they don't have a view in that matter of law we are I am acting for the premise license holder which is dirty blonde lounge limited. Right you've clarified that Mr. Dads happy with that and we can probably take that up further if we move into private session which we haven't yet discussed the possibility of we might explore that further but at the moment I'm accepting what you're saying. Thank you. Can I ask actually chair I do apologize through you. Could you allow the chair to go through the proceedings first and then you can write your questions afterwards please. Well no it's a more of a very important point that has to be addressed now I'm afraid you allow me chair. I think I'd like to hear it. I can't see the other member of the committee on the screen and I wondered whether the councilor could join us and have his camera on because at the moment I don't know whether he's with us or not with us and I think it is important that all the councilors of the committee should be visible and certainly I should be I should see whether they're active or not. Yeah where are you. Chair can I ask a quick question do you mind. Thank you Mr. Dads you were just saying that dirty lounge is also the leaseholder and has been for a number of years I think you said four years but it was only and put onto Companies House on the 1st of March 2024. Do you want to speak to that all just so I understand what's happening here. I didn't say any time chairman sorry Councillor Neill I'd said a number of years I can address that in private session if need be. Yeah I think I will rule that we'll discuss this in private in private session but I'd be happy to answer it then councilor if that's all right. Okay can I move on and say what we're here for. I haven't said that yet. The purpose of today's hearing is for licensing subcommittee to consider the Metropolitan Police's application to summary review the premises license relating to the dirty blonde 642 Watworth Road S. 8 under the Licensing Act 2003. The committee are mindful that this hearing has a two-stage process one to consider the summary review of the premises license and take steps as the committee considers appropriate and proportionate to promote the licensing objectives and two to consider and review the interim step that was taken to suspend the premises license on the 3rd of October 2024 and to decide whether any of the steps should be modified or remain and whether those steps should have immediate effect. Our only role today is determine what steps permitted under the Licensing Act 2003 are appropriate and proportionate in order to promote the licensing objectives namely the prevention of crime and disorder and public nuisance, public safety and the protection of children from harm. It's not our role to make any finite of fact as to the cause or causes of the incident that led to the review application or to ascribe blame or culpability on any person or entity. All those issues may or may not be considered in future proceedings wholly unrelated to this license review. To repeat our objective is to is impartially and fairly to consider the evidence and to determine what steps are appropriate and proportionate to promote the licensing objectives. Given the ongoing investigation by the police the principal parties have indicated that it is essential that nothing is aired in public session that risks jeopardizing any future legal proceedings. To do so risks undermining the pursuit of justice and also risk undermining the right to a fair hearing for any party involved in any potential legal proceedings. The subcommittee is therefore considered and applied the test set out in regulation 14 of the Licensing Act 2003 hearings regulations 2005 and it's this bit hearing to be public 14. 1 subject to paragraph 2 the hearing shall take place in public 2 that's subject to 2. 2 the licensing authority may exclude the public from all or part of a hearing where he considers that the public interest in so doing aren't poised the public interest in the hearing or that part of the hearing taking place in public. 3 for the purposes of paragraph 2 a party and any person assisting or representing a party may be treated as a member of the public. The NSC recognizes the public interest in holding as much of the hearing in public as possible however we also determined it's necessary to hear part of the hearing in private session as the public interest in doing so outweighs the public interest in hearing that evidence in public for the reasons just given. So may I now invite the police premises license holder and licensing authority for any further observations on this decision and you indicate if all of their submissions need to be heard in private session and that also and I don't know whether that applies to public protection so they can answer as well. So would first of all the police please state what your views of public private are here. Yes all the evidence that will be submitted and we wish to be heard in private. All in private? Yes. Clear enough. Licensing authority? Good evening chair thank you Paul Richards. Yes I second that discussions of the licensing's representation be discussed in private. All of it? Correct all of it. Right okay. The police premises license holder. Premises license holder? Yes yes thank you chair. For the abundance of caution I'd say that it must be heard in private and the reason why is that even if someone slips up inadvertently and says something it could prejudice the ongoing trial and fairness and no one here and we would be absolutely for the high jump no one here can risk that at all. So I'm sorry that whilst there will be a public interest in listening I think it's outweighed by the public benefit and making sure justice is done and served and we don't enter into contempt of court. Fair enough Mr. Dadds thank you very much for that. Am I asking public protection do they have a view on this? Are you here? Yes you are. Yeah I mean we should hear it in private just want to say safety and security. All everything you think. So the only point I've got here because I mean in private session we retire from this virtual room along with the license holder and relevant responsible authorities and this is a key point the public and other persons who have made representations will be excluded from that part of the meeting. So what you're saying is a whole all the evidence will be heard in private and the public who wanted to make representations won't be able to do so. Does that mean, I'm turning to Selina here, does that mean the whole of the rest of the meeting has got to be in private and therefore we won't be getting any representations? No chair so what I recommend is that the presentation by the licensing officer is made in public and following which the relevant parties move to private session for the presentation by the applicant and I'll take a view from Mr Dadsden PC Watson about whether we've returned to hear from the members of the public who may be here. I'm not sure if that's been confirmed by Justin this evening if there are any members of the public or councillors who wish to speak to their representation this evening. I think that could be done in public before we go back into private session to hear from the premises license holder or whether they take the view that we should hear both from the the police and the premises license holder in private session before returning to public. Okay I see Mr Dads wanted to just comment on that before I say something. Yes please sir, if I can maybe assist a little I've done a number of these and my experience has been this I've also been involved in matters where that it's actually the trial has been in effect wasted on the basis of evidence being heard so this is how I perhaps would guide you I'm not here to guide you but if I could help everyone out I think the is important to hear from the members of the public but I think what what you ought to do I think if I could guide in my mind it's very complicated but I think we should all go into private I think then you could maybe hear the officers report hear from the residents that want to speak now if they slip into anything outside about the incident on the night then it's still it's in private then once they're finished and you've asked questions of them or whatever then exclude vote to exclude them further and then hear from the other party so that they don't hear anything that we say and I think at least it gives them an opportunity they've been heard because I think there's a danger if you hear them in public and they say something which is prejudicial to that investigation or trial then I think we'll be in trouble so I think one has to handle it very very carefully that would be my my sort of help to the to the committee in the authority right I will take advice from legal again but my first response to that is I'm not that keen on having the representatives coming into the private session where they might hear some you know you were all being so careful that nothing is said that shouldn't be heard I'm not keen on them coming into private session I sort of first prefer the idea in private session first we then come out of it to see if we can listen to some of the representations what do you think he's shaking his head but what does that Selena think about that they have mute you're still mute apologies council I think what you've just said is an echo of probably what I've explained and you've heard from mr. dad's but it might be worth also hearing from PC Watson as well and but it is the matter for the committee I'll ask the rest of the committee in a second did you believe did you have a view on it about it specifically in relation to people who want to make representations cherry if I made from regards with regards to the MPS everything this everything involving the night of the incident we do not want to be heard in public and because it's due to an ongoing investigation anything members of the public wish to disclose wish to represent their their representations and they wish to discuss in public it's fine as long as it does not relate to the specific night of the incident right let me ask other members of the subcommittee their views council and I and then councilor Douglas and yeah I think is it possible Selena would it be possible to have members of the public come into the private room to give their submissions before leaving again or could we have them in just for that element I think maybe the first thing we might want to do is just to check who actually is here and check their representation so not all of the representations make mention of the incident so it might be worth just checking who is here and who wants to speak first right while you're looking at that would come to the Douglas like to give his view Justin can I ask you to double-check if that's okay yes just check it out yeah like I said council Douglas one is checking you're breaking up on the application I think a private session would be important it's not end of the private session if we are allowed to shoot it from the public submissions as well did you follow that I think you were saying that after the private session we should have them to speak in the public session right oh you're still checking so yeah so Nick Biskin is Biskin is verified and so is Britney's is verified so mr. agents done in mr. Ali P Avanti is also on the list yeah well they would be in the private session anyway wouldn't they correct yeah yeah so who is there who would be in the public who is a public people who want to speak sorry who are the members of the public who want to speak yeah Britney BB and Nick Biskin is one more councilor Bray right yes so can we assure them that if they ask questions outside after the private session they keep off completely anything to do with the night of the event can we ensure that they do that just a minute mr. does just to tell you I just like an answer to that question before I turn to you can we assure that care or Justin if I can interrupt sorry council garden I think it might be difficult to ensure that they don't speak to the instant especially if they are speaking to their representation and they've already made reference to it not to speak if they have made reference to the incident I think it might be difficult to ensure that they don't speak to the incident in question and if it's already part of their representation and if it forms a large part of their representation that they want to speak to this evening so what you suggest can you read them out we'd like the ones with whom it was a large part of their representation it may be that what mr. does has suggested might be sensible the sensible option I don't know if we have the if we can get the links to the private session out to those who wish to speak to walk to their representation it might be something that Kaya can confirm if that's possible first before members make a decision okay can you confirm that we can nominate other people for the private bit as long as they're yeah that's perfectly fine sure as long as you stay state there so I would believe council Councillor Bray will be one of the first people right and on the list so we're going to do what mr. dad suggests are we which would you like to describe it again for everybody just yes yes chair just so that because the danger is you cannot take any risk so that whilst all good intentions of not to stray you can't guarantee that so therefore you must abundance of caution going to private but so as not exclude the public which I think ought not to happen those who have made representation after the officers report hear them ask any questions they may have if they do stray into areas that they shouldn't at least it's in private and then ask them invite them to leave in effect and then we carry on in the parties that we have here and I would say that that is cautious and allows engagement of those who've made representation right I'm offering that assistance as I would have a duty to a call or or any tribunal thank you very much and care you can get them out when you want to can you you know when they've spoken we you can get them out of the private bit that is correct house I will have right on which note does that mean we now go into private to hear the licensing officers presentation to begin with that is correct house la good right goodbye everybody and hey you know who to let in to the private one is that right yes Justin doesn't Justin has given me the list thank you right I am now leaving and I'm getting into the other one and see you there see you the other side of the I was library I've sent you a link to the private meeting so you could leave the session and join thank you good evening everybody apologies for the lateness and counselors have now started deliberation so hopefully the meeting will be ending soon so we will update you very soon on that day thank you you good evening everyone just to let you know that legal is just finalizing the deliberation and they should be coming out soon we're all here now cuts a lot God when you're hot I am here I am ready whoops and you will see me yes we can see yeah right I'm terribly sorry it's taken so long it's been a long discussion and a long preparation of the report but I now have to tell you what our companies first of all thank you for everyone's patience this evening this is a summary of our decision and full written reasons will follow shortly firstly we'd like to remind everyone that the committee's role this evening is to consider the review application and relevant representations and determine what steps permitted under the licensing at 2003 are appropriate and proportionate in order to uphold the licensing objectives as mentioned it's not our role to make any findings of fact as to the cause or causes that led to the serious incident or to ascribe blame or culpability to any one person or entity nor is it our purpose to seek to punish any party and we have no power to do so members have considered the evidence and listen to the representations made on behalf of the police the premises license holder responsible authorities and other interested parties members have also taken into account the council statement of licensing policy and the Home Office's statutory guidance and summary review guidance the subcommittee's decision is to revoke the premises license members are of the view that the incident which took place outside the premises and breaches of the license conditions have left us with little confidence in the ability of the premises license holder to promote the licensing objectives members determined that there is sufficient evidence to show breaches of the current license which indicated that the premises has been operated in a way that undermines the licensing objectives unfortunately members were not satisfied that going forward the premises license holder could be trusted to operate the premises consistently with the licensing objectives members were not satisfied that the other less onerous steps available to them would likely achieve the same objective therefore revocation is the only appropriate option the decision of the subcommittee does not have effect until the end of the period for appealing this decision or if an appeal is made until that appeal is determined the subcommittee therefore needs to make a second determination in relation to the interim steps currently in place under section 53 D of the 2003 Act this will dictate the situation pending over that appeal period the subcommittee agrees that the appropriate and proportionate interim step pending the expiry of the appeal period is the suspension of the premises license and I will tell you of the rights of appeal one the police as applicants the premises license holder and any party who has made a relevant representation in these proceedings have the right to appeal our main decision to a magistrate's court that appeal must be commenced by notice of appeal given by the appellant to the designated officer for the magistrate's court within a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the appellant was notified by the licensing authority of the decision appealed against - in relation to the interim suspension pending appeal only the police and license holder have the right to appeal this interim step to the magistrate's court any appeal must similarly be commenced by notice of appeal given to the designated officer for the magistrate's court within a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the appellant was notified by the licensing authority of the decision appealed against. So that is our conclusion and that takes us to the end of the meeting. Is that the end? Yes that's correct Councillor that's the end of the meeting. Well thank you everybody for attending it's only half past midnight so you've