Transcript

Good morning everyone. This week we will be licensing Act 3003's subcommittee for a review of a premises license for Bronze Royale, 319 Romford Road, Westgate E79A HA. We have said that this meeting recording will be available on the meeting on the Council's YouTube channel. In accordance with the Member's Code of Conduct, the three Councillors on the committee today are required to declare any relevant interests in any matter being considered at this meeting. I have no interest to declare. Councillor Lofthouse? I have no interest to declare. I have no interest to declare. Thank you. I will now move to introductions. My name is Councillor Taylor Dixon. I represent Becton Ward and I will be chairing this meeting throughout the morning. Councillor Jane Lofthouse representing Plastow South. Thank you. Councillor Simon Rush representing Plastow West, Pannintown East. Case Officer. Steve Jackson licensing team. Thank you. We start with you. Here in Wagsdorf, Lasters Officer, Medch Van Wijk's putting a stand next front of his licensing. I will now announce the licensing information at the fair of Newham, shown at Plastow, Lasters Enforcement and the Barrow Building. Thank you. I am deported for duty licensing. Great, what can you do for your duty licensing chair? You are sent to a residence on that branch over there. Thank you. Similarly, very well. Your license hold there, isn't it? Should I actually introduce yourself? I will now briefly answer the procedure of this meeting. The licensing case officer will present their report. We then move to representations from the responsible authorities, for example the police, trading standards and environmental health. Members can seek clarification and so can the applicant on their representative on any of these matters. We have representations today from the council licensing team. A resident has submitted a presentation in support of the review and the police. Finally, members may pass a resolution to the liberating private and excluded press in public, including parties and their representatives. Clerk and legal advisor will remain with the members, provide advice on procedure and law. When the decision has been reached, the meeting will convene and the decision of the subcommittee will be announced in public. Full written copies of the decision sent to the applicant/license holder, responsible authorities and interested parties, usually within five working days. Parties who have taken part in this hearing may appeal against the decision to the Magistrates Court within 21 days. As this is an administrative hearing under the 2003 Act, we are not trained lawyers so rely on legal advice from our legal department, today represented by... Thank you. I'd also like to inform all parties that we base our decision on written and oral submissions. The clerk will take minutes of the meeting, would you like to introduce yourself? Thank you very much. If anyone in this chamber wishes to ask a question during the meeting, I ask them to raise their hand and wait to be invited to speak. I would ask that all mobile phones be silenced and I now will invite the case officer to present his report. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. The members of the Licensing Subcommittee are asked to hear and determine an application for review of the Premise Licence, Braun's Royal, 319 Robford Road, Forest Gate, 9HA and any valid representations that have been made. The review application was submitted by the Metropolitan Police Licensing Team to the Council's Licensing Team. This was received on the 5th of September, 2024. A copy is attached to Appendix A. The application was advertised by the Licensing Team by means of notices in the immediate vicinity of the premises. The grounds for the review are licensing objectives of the Prevention of Crime Disorder and Public Safety. The Metropolitan Police Licensing Team also submitted additional statement CAD reports and CCTV to support the review application. These are attached to Appendix B, B1 and up to B5. The Council's Licensing Team have submitted a representation supporting the review application. A copy of their letter is attached to Appendix C. A resident has submitted a representation in support of the review application. A copy of their letter is attached to Appendix D. The licence was first issued on the 10th of October, 2018. A variation was received on the 15th of May, 2023 to extend the hours for supply of alcohol, live music and late night freshmen. Conditions were agreed with the police. A copy of the Common Promises licence is attached to Appendix D. The members of the licensing subcommittee are asked to hear the review application, the representations folder and any valid representations received, responsible authorities and interested parties and determine the application. Just in additional to that, Chair, there is a supplementary which is now all on green paper due to some addresses that were on later supplements. It includes an MG11 from the police, a supporting statement again from the Licensing Team and I believe there's some notes and pictures that were taken at the scene, which is included with the CCTV and there's a witness statement from an SIA officer also in the team. I know I may have asked earlier if the SIA investigator attending today do we know? I believe she was going to attend today but I don't believe she's come to the actual hearing today, no. Okay, thank you. Right, has this been the first incident reported to the Licensing Team from this venue? Yeah, from obviously the history that I've detailed there, we've had no other issues in terms of complaints or people surrounding these premises up to this one incident that was called in by the police review. Right, okay. And could you just pull up the original application and the original licence opening and closing times? The original... Yeah, not the variation because I've got the variation. I don't believe any times... Oh, yeah, sorry, it was changed, yeah, sorry. I'll have to look into that. Alright, I'll leave you with that at the moment. And also if you can bring up the pictures of the venue, please, just and if you have a plan of the venue, if you have one, so we can get an idea of its scope and this information. Thank you. And the last question is, can you confirm if the premises falls within CIZ? This review application says... That's something that cannot be discussed here today. Thank you. Alright. Yeah, if it assists, page one, two, four in the main agenda, the next one sets out the conditions amended by variation on the licence. That was back in 2018. One, two, four? One, two, four, so the original bundle, the agenda. What I have is staff training on one, two, four, annex three, the timings. Yeah, I think there's been some, there's obviously, if you've been to the prior pages to that particular annex, annex two sets out, there was a variation in July 2023. I've got the license up now. The license for activities was supply of alcohol, performance of dance, performance of live music, performance of recorded music and late night refreshment. Standard times were for alcohol Sunday to Thursday 4 p.m. to 2330 hours and Friday and Saturday 4 p.m. to 1230. That's got there. Sorry, this sun is really stroking the screen. That was Friday to Sunday. That was Friday to Saturday. Sunday to Thursday was 4 to 1130. Friday and Saturday here, 4 to, it says 1230 but I believe that's, probably is meant to be midnight and it's actually got like the afternoon but I believe that's 1230 p.m. Performance of dance, I'll go through it. Friday and Sunday 4 to 0300 hours. Performance of live music, unamplified Tuesday 4 to 1 a.m. and Thursday 4 to 2 a.m. Live music Friday to Sunday 4 to 3 a.m. Late night refreshment. We have Monday to Wednesday 11 to 1, Thursday 11 to 2, Friday and Sunday 11 to 3. That was like I said, that was the old license but that variation was done and obviously the come on license is what we're looking at. Okay, so this is the, I'm so sorry, this is such a... So obviously this is the floor plan of the premises. Obviously the restaurant area has a reception and bar, obviously, in the middle of the premises and they have a kitchen towards the rear with a storage area and a staff, I believe that's a staff lounge area there. And just to bring up the front of the premises, this is Bronte Royal here with sort of like the brown shutter doors. I'll try and go down if it allows me. I suppose we're going to get on there, I'm afraid. And as far as you're concerned, the license team is registered as a restaurant? Yes, the conditions that are listed on the license, it's a restaurant which supplies table meals with alcohol and seat customers, yes. All right, lovely. Any questions? No, I think that's all right, thank you. Just one really, I think on the A7 designated smoking area, if there isn't one as soon as it's just out the front. I can't see anything listed on the plan, but in terms of the license, I believe because it's a public footpath outside the premises, I believe there's a restriction on the conditions. Off the top of my head without looking, I can confirm. Thank you, and I assume the front entrance has the relevant no smoking signs on the door as all premises do these things. I know it's sort of a separate issue. I can't confirm that for definite, that might be a question to the applicant and maybe the officers that actually visited recently. Thank you. No problem. And I'll just pull up that, just stop sharing my screen just in case state protections wise. I'll just confirm about the smoking condition if you want to continue and I'll come back to you on that. Just a bit, it says on page 125 there is condition 11, there's various smoking areas instead. The license hold shall ensure there are measures in place to monitor the outside area directly in front of the premises and smoking to ensure that occupants are seated. It doesn't give the number. Let me just. This is like, you know, Yeah. Well, that's something that's come to the last police or the authorities may have had some complaints but there's only police here today they're called in review, and obviously licensing so I would assume. Thank you. All right. Thanks. Thank you. Any questions to Steve regarding what he said today. Any questions. Let's move on. Oh, did you want to mention anything about, sorry, sorry, just to go on external areas is on annex three of the condition that condition number 11 external areas and smoking areas. The premises license holders should ensure that there are measures in place to monitor the outside directly in front of the premises used for smoking and occupancy figure is not to exceed the area must be. The customers take drinks outside. We swept to food. And the waste management so and that's on there as part of one of their conditions. All right, lovely. Okay, so. So Mandy, did you want to say anything about in sensitivity of some of this, just to just to mention that obviously the main agenda has exempt information, the camera for us be one appendix B wants to be fiber exempt the reasons are given, and then the supplementary agenda is restricted as well, given the content of the investigation and also this personal details in that. So, if those appendix B will be discussed and also for the restricted ice, the supplementary agenda will be discussed, it has to be in closed session, given that it's exempt information. So we just need to be mindful of that that we, we close the session for it to be heard in private so that the public do not hear it. When those matters have been discussed. Wonderful. Okay, and you will keep us in line if we get close to the mark, get Yeah, I think it will probably be when the police. When we come to them when it's their application for you for the next slow. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So just want to check is the police happy is content about. Yeah. And the bronze layout is advertised as an African situated on Longford roads junction with great road, and often line in a forest gave itself license to sell alcohol thing as a 4pm and to 30 hours from Monday to Sunday. It's only now it's a 4pm until 100 hours. It might be below like just connected following a report the firearms incident energy gauge where a man was stabbed in the leg on Saturday. Okay 1091 first to a call to police are only 341 hours statement malware fire I'm trying to enter the building, especially as firearms officers attended the scene at 0401 hours. Can 1103 also same day, it goes to a GBH tapping instant. The locations. I'll be 7030 since I was a step in. It was believed to be linked to the original cat 1091 the original calls outside the premises of from for our is important to know the time. If a man was stabbed in remains in hospital in an induced comma. There is a separate case I'm going away and update the medical changes for attempted murder is now being investigated. The licensees drug DPS things and on when it was contacted by the police as a matter of importance in order to investigate any potential licensing issues. The initial approach was with a view to interrogate venues CCTV. Due to the seriousness of the incident considerations were made to apply for a closure notice. This was considered taking into account that the venue will be due to open the following night. And in fear of reprisals leading the closure notice to prevent any further problem disorder. Mr Oran when stated that the premises was still a crime scene and the uniform doctors will not allow him access to the venue. Mr Oran was offered voluntary closure for the evenings of Saturday the 10th and Sunday the 11. He was informed the place encounter license office waiting for premises are like to date to view the CCTV. Once the scene is closed and the venue was released. The premise from that remained the same for several more days I mean to the critical condition that the age of male remaining. Please encounter kept observations on how the crime scene was progressing and made an appointment for the following Monday to view the CCTV knowing that most of the incident appeared to have happened outside. On Monday the 19th Morgan's office licensing and Metropolitan Police attendees premises of doing the CCTV in the presence of Mr on went multiple breaches of premises license, or identify and motive. Condition for use of the equipment and at least one member of staff so trying to be present during committee Dallas, you can download CCT police officer officer from the council and a lot will be kept to verify this in response to this condition Mr on went over the CCTV CCTV CCTV and then allowed officers the use of the equipment, so you may be didn't mean about condition 26 si a security staff shall wear his jackets and display their badges at all times when they are on duty at the premises. In this condition when the CCTV was viewed Mr on let's identified a male in the footage that he claimed was a door supervisor. The male had no visible visible identification was not wearing a high visibility jacket, and they actually had the appearance of a patron in the photo will seem to be sold after the hours latest our witness was at 0406 hours, the CCTV system shall be checked which is condition eight on a weekly basis to ensure that he's working stroke recording and a record of this shall be recorded in the CCTV licensees DPS, noting the dates and time of this also include any thoughts in the CCTV kept the premises at all times and should be made available to the police and the author of council officers on request and response to this condition there is no longer anybody checking CCTV, and the system was set to only show four cameras, please locate more cameras that have been unchecked. This is a breach of conditioning. The licensees shall prominently display notices advertising customers of the challenge 25 posts. The licensees shall keep a written record of all staff or for us to sell alcohol records contain the full name. I'm impressed date of birth and national insurance number of each person so the staff show staff record shall be kept on the license premises and made available for inspection by the licensing officer training standards for the police, a public list. The licensees shall ensure that each member of staff or for us to sell outcomes received appropriate training upon induction and refresh the training and six monthly involves thereafter on the law, with regard to age restricted products proxy sales welfare involvement, vulnerability engagement and the permitted hours and conditions attached to the license, and this is properly documented and training records kept the training record shall be made available to authorize officers of the license authority or the place upon request the licensing to ensure that each member of staff or for us to sell out how it's fully aware of their responsibilities in relation to verify the customer's age, and it's additionally capable and confident to effectively effectively question officers, check evidence of proof of age and confront and challenge under 18 attempting to purchase alcohol. Alcohol was being served to customers at the bar area. No table service or anybody eating food was witnessed. So the sales were not ancillary to any meal, and the patrons were openly standing in the bar area dancing. This is a breach of conditions 19 and 20. No alcohol can only be supplied to customers inside the premises, aging in the sit down table meal as ancillary to the consumption of food, shall be served by waiters through waitresses. No vertical drinking shall be used at premises. Patrons were sold glass, sold glass bottles from behind the bar, the drinks were not decanted into any plastic vessel. This is a breach of condition 21. All beverages, all beverages, including alcoholic and non alcoholic, shall only be dispensed in polycarbonate, plastic, non glass containers or toughened or safety glass to be appropriate to the appropriate safety standard. In that, they shall not produce sharp shards when broken. All glass bottles shall be retained behind the bar for safety disposal. Plastic and toughened glass vessels shall be used by customers at premises only and shall not be permitted to be taken outside of premises. To security, SIA. To security, SIA registered officers asked to be on the premises from 2200 to close Friday to Sunday. The details recorded by the operator for the SIA that were on duty were not present. He showed a note saying that these were the staff on duty. The badge numbers that he wrote down were no trace on the security industry. The security that the operator identified were not wearing high visibility jackets and had no identification on show, breaches conditions 26 and 27. SIA security staff shall wear high visibility jackets and display their badges at all times. The premises license holder shall ensure that the following details are recorded for each door supervisor, full name and contact number or email address, SIA certificate number and or badge number or registration number of any accreditation scheme approved by the SIA. The time they began their duty, the time they completed their duty. The details shall be kept to the premises and be made available to an authorized officers of the licensing authority or the police. The conditions that have been added to the license following a hearing in July 2023. The operator should be aware of the need to follow these conditions and is showing a blatant disregard to these conditions. It is the opinion of the Metropolitan Police that the venue has seriously undermined the license and objectives, namely the prevention of crime and disorder and protection of public safety. The breaches identified directly contributed with the causation of the incident resulting in one male potentially going to lose his life. The Metropolitan Police Service has lost complete faith in the venue's ability to operate in line with the licensing objectives. It is blatantly obvious from viewing the CCT that it would be that this venue has been habitually operating in a non-compliant capacity. The Metropolitan Police are of the opinion and there is no other option than to respectfully request that the premises license be revoked. Thank you. Thank you very much. You have provided us with quite a detailed chat and Chris report. Can you just give me a quick summary of what that actually means just so it's noted and that, to be quite honest, it can't make sense of half of it because it's redacted and stuff like that. So, if you could just give me a quick summary on that. We just need to have this in closed session. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Right, so we're now looking at exhibit. The first CCTV clip which is the officers PC Wagstaff and Colin Hunt from licensing team discussing the CCTV footage. Thank you. I believe it's dated on the 17th of August 2024 at 0404 am. No, no, no, no. They know exactly what the problems are. So when we go back there, still breaches. I don't know what pages on the supplementary but quite clearly there's still a number of breaches. The logbook security, still the 20 July 2023 so my view is they haven't had proper security in there since that date. And even after the review application they still haven't put security in there. So, the confidence in these premises, even if they're running at any times, then they haven't got no confidence that this is this is going to be a day to no conditions, we're going to so I would, I would love both. Thank you. Just blatantly ignores the last two conditions or does not have an understanding what conditions actually mean. I think, possibly, initially, maybe didn't quite understand it, but after the review of the my letter. Quite clearly we stated that they are low the breaches of your condition. So, from what you're saying, from that point, he blatantly ignored it. My view is because he understood it, even if he didn't understand it before he understood it after because his license is up for review. Basically he's in a lot of trouble, he may lose his business, or certainly may lose his license. I would definitely be thinking, I need to get my license in order for this today's hearing. Now, I would have expected as well a log of the security that were employed from the review date to be booked to this hearing or sent to us saying these are my security, every Saturday night from 10 o'clock till closing. I've not seen any of that. That's what I would have expected that premises under review, lots of breaches to bring to this committee hearing. I've not seen anything that changes my mind that I've not seen anything. Thank you. Yes, just one please, Colin. In that bottom paragraph I've highlighted four conditions, 9/10, that's the SI and the control of alcohol, being breached. Had they not been breached, would have been a significant factor in preventing legal incident. Could you possibly expand on that a little bit? If you've got security on the door, SI badge, SI visas, there's a visible view. People can see that this premises is not an easy target if you like. They've got security, they're visible. They would have been there at the door, anybody trying to get in there they didn't like the look of would have been stopped at that door, asked why they want to come in when it was clearly an incident was going on outside. It looked to me on the CCTV, what CCTV I saw, I don't think it was on today's one, but the CCTV I saw, the customers were sort of milling around as well, so you couldn't see, well there wasn't no security, but customers were there milling around trying to sort of stop people coming in or letting people in and it just was not good. So I believe if security there, visible security, they might not have been so keen to come in that premises and the incident may well not have happened outside. I'm not saying it wouldn't have done, but I think the reason conditions are put into the license is to help the license holder prevent these type of things happening. It's not draconian, it's not like their conditions aren't there to stop people trading, it's there to help them as well, to help them run the premises. Security is a part of that running the premises. Thank you, thank you. So what do you think we could do differently to make this a successful business? Well, I mean adhere to the conditions on the license, first and foremost, but they're not doing that. And going forward, even after review, they're still not doing it, so no further conditions, because I've got no conditions, you could put loads of conditions on that license, but if they're not adhering to them, then there's no point in putting the condition onto the license, because clearly they're not adhering to the beginning, and even after the review, they're not adhering to the conditions. So are they kind of dear conditions if we put extra conditions on top of what we got? My view is no, but obviously it's a member's decision. Yes, of course. To follow on from that, regarding the timings, I mean originally it was more like 11.30, 12.30, wasn't it? Do you imagine that timings would make any difference? Again, I'll go back to what I say, you know, they were operating, standing out till 4 o'clock in the morning, their license was still 2.30. Now, in my view is, if you're talking back to 12 o'clock, will they go to 2.30? You know, possibly not, possibly this might have been the wake-up call, but I haven't got that confidence. Again, I'll go back to it, a license is built with a review. Once your license is reviewed, you focus. This premise hasn't, in my view. Okay, all right, thank you. But any questions for Colin regarding his report? No, Chair, thank you, it's quite plain and clear. Yes. Mr. Burrow-Wensie would like to ask a question. Yes, of course. Yeah, after they spoke to me about the incident that happened. Questions. Let's go to a question. I shot down the premises, and when you came, was there anybody in there? I took out the lifeguard, took out D-genius, I took out everything. So when they came, we were closing. On Friday, when you guys came, we were closing, because I just went to get gasoline down the street, and I came back. I was going to go out running low on gas, but we were closing already. That's what I've been doing. Council here, we have been closing since, and I spoke to Mr. Eni about it, and I told you guys that from the incident day, I've been closing, and police has been coming to the premises. Makes sense. What is the question you have for Colin? The question is that they said I did not make any adjustment. I did. No, he said he didn't make any adjustments that he had seen from the time they went to the time. There was still a number of breaches of license. Was there anybody in your premises? And there's no security. I'm here. No, no, hold on. I'm going to have the opportunity to speak in a minute, just like they all have. But this has to be a specific, sir, it has to be a specific question that he can answer, so would you like to ask him a question? I have your time to finish. You go next, sir. If you haven't got a question. The question is I made the adjustment, you asked me to. It's not a question. That's my question. Or not. I can answer that if you want. Please. No, you didn't. I dispute that because the officer, when he went in there, the licensing officer, when he went in there, he'd done enough of his life checks and there were still lots of breaches of license conditions. Also, there was no security on. So what adjustments you made, I don't know, because we still found no security and 10 to 11, like that. Are there any further questions? Okay, wonderful. Now I just wanted to note we had a representation from a, are we open or closed? It should be open. So it's not on a restricted item. So you can, it's a matter for you whether you would like the representation read out or you would just like to consider it, that it's in the agenda. What I will say is that from a legal point of view is that obviously they have mentioned some matters which I don't think are relevant to the licensing objectives, the relevant paragraph in my view is where it starts from additionally, we've experienced significant noise disturbance that paragraph sets out to second their issues, my experience of the premise. I would like that part read out then please by who, would it be yourself, Monessa? You can do it, yeah. Additionally, we have experienced significant noise and noise disturbances, especially in the evenings, which disrupt prayer times and the peaceful environment of the mosque. We also regularly face issues such as public intoxication with individuals vomiting and urinating outside our mosque. This creates an unsanitary and disrespectful environment. That's where it ends, that paragraph. Yeah. There is, just to mention this, the mention of litter and other inappropriate materials near the entrance. Yeah, as I've said that they've made a couple of points about, you know, issues with car parking, which isn't really relevant to the life subjects. They're saying that it causes an inconvenience to pedestrians, and it's contributing to disorder and disruption, I mean, you know, it's car parking. But obviously, public safety. This sort of disturbance or issues around public safety. And so just go ahead. Sorry, yes, and obviously they mentioned at the start that it's also, they've got concerns that it's close to a religious institution, a mosque, a place of worship and obviously that's... Thank you. So just so it's noted that we've accepted their representation. Moving on. There was also, we have just, I've gone to be noted, we had a reporting from the ISA that I'm not sure how this will pan out. She has written a letter to us. So again, I don't think we need to go through it because it's here, it's documented but I also wanted it noted. It's not a letter chair, it's a statement. So, is it to be read out? Because we've all read it and you're happy with it. Right, lovely. Okay, so just to make sure, it's noted that the committee have read and understood exactly what she says. Okay, so moving on from there. Graham. Chair, thank you. Obviously our clients accept that conditions have been breached. We've heard from staff and Mr Hunt. I can tell you briefly that they have had CCTV training. I advised them to get an engineer around and they did that. And we were at the premises on the 9th of October and I've got photographs of the Challenge 25 and the CCTV notices on display. We photographed them because we sent them to them and as we were there I did a check and made sure they were displayed so they have moved forward on that side. I won't comment on the issues that led to this. Subject to the review is the breaches of the licence condition, obviously. We are proposing to reduce the times licenceable activities to cease at 1 o'clock and the premises to close by 1.30. So, just go through that again for me? Yeah, the premises would close, obviously I'm talking at weekends particularly, but the latest time would be licenceable activities to cease at 1 and the premises to close at 1.30. So that would remove a sizeable chunk of the problem area as we see it that the police have highlighted, or I think Mr Hunt highlighted, people going to the premises late at night when obviously they may have been drinking without having food. I'll be open with the Committee. We are looking at putting in a variation because it's not working. We'd be looking at trying to see if we could persuade the authority to allow a cafe bar where people would be seated, no vertical drinking, but they might be allowed to go to the bar by a drink and go back to their seat. But that's a forward thing in the future, but certainly we offer the reduced timings because I think that will address a lot of the night time issues. I have stressed to Mr Oren-Wensie and to Ms Bello today that the joint owners and joint licence holders, that the conditions must be complied with. It's not an option. They are legally binding and I can say, I'll bear out what Mr Hunt said, there was some misunderstanding there, he didn't realise the penalties he could face. Instead of being here today, it would be in the Magistrates Court, charged with various breaches that the police have established, Mr Hunt has established, nor did he realise it. Not only is it an unlimited fine, he could go to prison for six months, not somewhere I think anybody wants to go to particularly, but he's now aware of those consequences and I think, as we've had another conversation this morning, we met earlier, considerably earlier. I was on the phone with him last night for what must have been an hour, something like that, and Ms Bello was there, so she's now fully aware of the situation. Yes, he does understand now the seriousness of where we are today, but also where he could have been in court, facing a bench of Magistrates and a possible, because of what's happened outside, shall we say, a prison sentence, or at least a suspended sentence. So we think the timings will make a considerable change. As you know, we don't just have our clients and throw them away afterwards, we will be in touch with them. So I think we've already agreed that when they take new staff on, he's going to send the documents, they're going to send the documents to me, I will check them, if I'm not happy, I will speak to the police or to licensing. So, in effect, we'll be checking their new staff, so the situation with that door supervisor will not arise again. He's got to send me the passports, work permits, etc, the residence permits, etc. No staff to be interviewed until I've seen those documents. So we're tightening up on that. And Mr Orowenze has accepted that. As I say, CCTV training has been done, he showed me the system on the 9th of October when we were there. And I took the photographs of the notices that we'd sent him on display so I can verify that whether they weren't seen by the officers last week, on the night, they were on the wall inside, and they were by the front door on the left hand side. They should go in, there's a lobby door, two doors, and they're in that entrance hall. Put them on the door, hot weather, during the day, they wouldn't be safe. So they're on the wall as they go past and they can't list, but they're on the side, on the wall, and behind them. I think the CCTV is behind the bar, isn't it? Yeah, CCTV and Challenge 25 are behind the bar. As evidence, I just brought those up, there's the licensing act notice that refers to Challenge 25. The bar is, runs out that way, it's right next to the bar. And there's the Challenge 25 on the front door. Sorry, the CCTV notice on the front door. So, yes, he has made some changes. Obviously, not enough, we'll have to tighten up more on him in that sense. But I think, as I say, with the reduction in hours, we may be seeking an earlier start time so that it can be more of a food-led premises during the day, particularly. We won't be running into the deep night time economy. It's more restaurant, cafe bar type hours. So we feel like cutting that later period out and having the, no disrespect to the clients, but ridiculously long consumption period. Got people staying, you know, one and a half hours at the moment. They can't buy a drink after 2.30, legally. They're there till four o'clock, so we're getting rid of that to remove that temptation. So it will enable him to comply with his timing better if we stop earlier. So that's one of the things that we think will make a fundamental difference. I will have to, if we do do the variation, have to look at the conditions and tidy them up, but whatever we do will be done in conjunction with police and licensing. It's not something I'm going to just sling at the council and say, you know, we'd like you to consider this. It will be discussed at length with them. But that's, we see it as the way forward. So as I say, he has made changes and I think now he understands the circumstances of what could have happened if other things had, you know, been inside the premises, shall we say. I think Mr Oran Wensie is a lot more aware of the consequences of his inaction to date and he will be a lot more positive. So we're asking you rather than to, to revoke the license to consider a period of suspension. I'm not suggesting two weeks. We're talking a longer period, maybe while we put a variation through to bring the operation up to date. But more staff training for them. I will go through every condition on that license with him and he can provide the team while I'm sitting there, but we will go through every condition with both Mr Oran Wensie and Ms Bello. They are charming people. They just haven't realised the consequences of what's, what's happened. So we're asking you to give them another chance. Put a period of suspension, I guess earlier, you'll have to close at 11 o'clock, because you can't sell hot food after 11 o'clock without if the license is suspended. Ms Bello has already suggested they'll turn the music down to a lower level, so we'll keep a better ambience in there, which I think will make a difference as well. And he's not going to have the DJs anymore. There'll be no DJs, no groups or whatever, you know, professional players or artists, it will just be their music, which is not licensed until 11 but after that if we do go to one o'clock, he'd have to have that on his license but at a reduced level. Yes, you're still going to get special events like having a functional 13th of December. Yeah. For the nurses from Newham General. Newham General, because that's where I work. Ms Bello is a nurse herself, so she likes to have, and they also have the GPs go in there from, from the hospital and locality so they, they might want to get up for a dance for Christmas. I don't suppose anybody's going to be too bothered about that, but the varied license will cover that, but no groups, no DJs, just basically recording at a more cafe bar/restaurant level, so we're taking away all the temptations of it operating as an item. It's not an item, and it's not going to be with the changes we're going to make. So we're looking at the earlier hours, full training. As you heard Mr Umwes, he has got a badge himself, I stress to him he can't be sweeping the floor when he's supposed to be on the door, so I think you understand that now don't you, he's got the message, and we'd like to see him given a chance. I have explained to him if he were brought back here before you, it would be curtains, it would be closed, there'd be no, the panel would have no choice. Plus he'd end up almost certainly in the magistrate's court, and he doesn't want to go there. So I think with the changes, the change in attitude, the awareness of the seriousness of the situation, of the awful matter. It has come as a shock to him, and I do believe, got confidence that they will comply. As I say, they are nice people, I think everybody's agreed on that. It's just his management skills need to be honed to run this place as it should be run, in accordance with what's on the list. So we're asking you to give them a chance, reduce the hours, let them see if they can become a cafe bar, but no music. Those things will bring it down to it should be. We will be working with him. Okay. We ask you to consider that as an alternative. Thank you. Yes, I do. A double question really. Part of it is, why did you apply for the extension of times, because originally your times were somewhere 11, 13, 12, 13, something like that, and just over a year ago, you extended. So why did you ask for that extension? And I'm going to tag on to that, what Colin Hunt's answer was to mine about timing, that as you have not observed your current times, would you observe earlier times, but could you do the one about why you extended your times first? The reason I applied for the extension was, after the pandemic, when I opened the place, the pandemic came, so people were no longer coming out as before. The pattern changed. When the pattern changed, I met with Colin, and I explained to him that I don't want to start doing something without you guys' consent. I went to them, and I explained to the office, and they said, Okay, how do we work with you? And I explained to them that people are coming out late. They're not coming out earlier than like before. Times change, and after the pandemic, people are not coming out late at night, and that the people in this neighborhood, they don't come out early. So I went to them, and we all agreed that, Okay, if we want to work with you, we're going to do this with you. That was how I applied for the timing. Not knowing that that timing that we've gotten, everything was under control until later, when people – it's the neighborhood, actually, that contributed to what actually happened, but the incident that happened never came to the premises. You understand me? Because any rigid we make at the door over there, there's a place they all still go to opposite us. Any rigid go to that place, and they don't save you two hours. Even now that I was shutting down Pueblo Club before this hearing, the police have been there more than three or four times. When they come, I open the door for them, there's nobody in there. Because when a place is caught anywhere in that area, because I'm the only licensed holder that is running late, they come straight to me. So it's been happening, and even when I explain to Mr. Wannster that, Look at what has been happening. Police have been coming here even when I'm not in operation. So you're saying there was a demand, a demand from customers locally that you would – After the pandemic, we were not late. That was how we went to apply for the variation. So how will that change? Will there not still be a demand to be later and a temptation to stay open later? How would it work? What we're planning to do now is to reduce the hours, which I have done since. When they came yesterday, they were closing. So I want to reduce the hours so that way we will not fill out our business back to where it was originally. And it would still be a viable business. I mean, it's not your – you want to be open later because – to make the business viable, to get enough customers in. We want to do – what we're not doing, we're not doing the apps, like PUBAI, Deliveroo, and Just Eat. We put all the three apps in there now. Right. So that will increase the food. That will increase the food. Food purchase and the – And reduce the – And reduce the accuracy. That way people now know that we're not going to do no DJs on weekend, which has stopped the DJ ever since. So we're just trying to do another clientele-based business at the moment. Expand your business with takeaways, is that right? Is that what you're saying? And so then close the times that Graham has suggested one, and you don't feel then the issue that having breached your time before – If we close early – if we close early, the place next door that they go to, their business will not affect us. That's what I'm trying to do at the moment. Because there's a place next door to us that are pretty very late at night. Most of the problems, they are not licensed. It's not a licensed premises. It's just some individual – the police, they are well fit. So I can't control them people. Yeah. They come even when they are not allowed to enter my premises, they are on the road till 10 a.m. in the morning. The whole neighborhood knows that. Everybody knows that. So most of the problems, because I'm the licensee, only licensee in that area, they attribute it to me. The parking bit, they're talking about parking, urinating. Parking is not relevant. It's nothing to do with me. What about the times? The timings will bring things down and make it more mellow. So that's the idea, to take away the temptation for people who've been elsewhere, as we all know, and be drinking and then think they can get a nightcap at Vincent's. They won't be able to. So that problem will be removed. If he's open after those hours, he knows where he'll go now. He'll be here. He'll be up at Bow. That's – I'll come back maybe later, but that's the moment. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Hi, Vincent. How long have you been in the restaurant business specifically that sells with alcohol? Ten years now. I'm sorry? Over 10 years. Over 10 years. So you've been in the restaurant business for over 10 years, including selling of alcohol, but it's only very recently you actually understood what license conditions meant and what you regulate. What's been put in place you have to adhere to prior to that you didn't, because that's what was suggested. Yes. Problem with that. I never had a problem in any of these premises before until just now. My question was, with regard to the understanding of license and conditions, I understand and get that prior in your 10-year history running restaurants, there was never any issues. But it was only very recently that you actually knew what licensing conditions actually meant. I think, Councillor, he understood the conditions are there. And yes, we accept and I think it's fair to say they are apologetic that the breaches goes without saying. I think he was unaware of the consequences of the breach, which could have led to court rather than just to a review. So it's the consequences he now understands, not just before your good selves today, but also it could have been a panel of magistrates instead. Of course. So that has now clicked home. And as I say, he has definitely made efforts. The notices were there. They've had to, I couldn't stress it enough to Mr on Wednesday, they had to have the CCTV training. No, it's because I had a moan at him last night about the Friday night when he went to get his petrol. Do it before work or do it after? I was about to say that, I know exactly where you mean. That point has been hammered home. Right. Thank you. And working with him afterwards, away from me yet. Thank you. A separate question, not really overly relevant in regards to licensing conditions. I note the statement from the SIA authority who wrote a statement that it does appear that at least SIA staff were paid cash in hand. Is that something else that will be divided up within the business? That's been explained to Mr on Wednesday as well. You have to put it through the books. So it's not necessarily strictly a licensing matter, but the SIA certainly is. And I think Vincent is now aware how to check it on the website. Somebody gives you an SIA card. Check it. It takes two minutes. So he's aware of the need to do that and the reasons behind it now. Well, I'll give it to him. Let me check. I didn't know how to check it. You do now though, don't you? Yeah, I know now. Go on, check it, job done. Right. Thank you. That was my final question. Vincent, I have very, very high concerns about you being able to run this business. You've been running businesses for 10 years plus. Times have changed. You've said that. You have come into Newham, you've opened your shop, and when you originally filled out your application form to get your license for your premises, did you read it? I did. You read every page. Not every. A solicitor helped me then to do. Do you understand you need to read your own stuff? Because if you had read it, you would have then understood these conditions that were put in place to safeguard you, safeguard your clients, safeguard the public, but you didn't. So that's why you didn't know what you had to do and why you failed so miserably coming here for a review. So you've got Graham now, who's now going to fact check everything, and you might have another solicitor that might help you, but I need to know that going forward, you're going to read what you get, you're going to understand it, and if you don't, then you've got other people that can help you. You can't rely on other people to run your business. Okay, so I just want to ask you a couple of questions. When Colin and PC Wagstaff came into the restaurant and spoke to you and stood there and explained to you what you should be doing about logging in the log in book, and the, the, what was the other one the log in book, and you had to fill out the SAA training book and what have you. And they came back and looked, and you didn't. Why, why, why didn't you not listen to what they were saying? I thought I was going to bring that training book to this place for review, I didn't want to. Yeah, that's what they told me, the guy spoke to told me that you don't don't doctor anything or go and update the book to present because they will know that you are lying. Just leave it the way it is when you bring it to the review. Did you bring the book to the review? It was when you come to find that they don't need a book. This is what I'm saying. He was telling me that I should have updated it. I didn't know that I need to update it because he followed me and make all the changes. And I didn't know that I was not going to bring a book here because I don't want to make it like I'm lying. Are you just a writer? I can write. I think you look like I'm lying. Finish please. You've got specific guidance from the two most important people in this room to you. And you paid, again, no attention. So you tell me why should we not revoke your license? You tell me not to. You tell me. I admit that I made mistakes in the area that I'm supposed to have corrected the purchase of the license. I think the reason is that this never happened to me before. I never had a mentor like him. And I spoke to Mr. That's how the SIA issue came up. It was made that I voluntarily gave it to him to go ahead and check because I needed to start making some corrections. So the reason I'm pleading with the council not to revoke the license is the fact that I've admitted my mistakes. And from now onward, I will follow every detail discussion until later. And I will comply with whatever I want. I'm willing to work with the council. I've known Mr. Hunt for a long time. He knows that. Whenever he tells me something, I do it. I've always worked with them. Okay, my last question. Where did you meet Duncan Martins? I met him a couple of months back. Where did you meet him? Where did you meet him? Yeah, he came to the premises. He came to your bar. And how did you end up employing him to become your C-I... Sorry. Yeah, I always get it mixed up. Operator? He came to the premises and told me he has an SIA. But me, I have an SIA bag as well. So for you to have the bag, the SIA authority has checked all your credentials and know that you are able to live in the UK. Why? So when he brought the bag to me, I looked at him, I'm like, It's the same. I have no way of knowing. So when he said one time, he said, I have the picture of the card, of the photocopy of it. And I said, Okay, I have it. I will give it to you to help me check it. He was checking it on my phone. My phone is not allowing him to do it. He was telling me maybe because he has a special phone, he can do it. He checks it with his phone. I send it to him to help me check so that I know that I'm employing somebody that is right. Not knowing that the card is a fake one. If I had known, I wouldn't give it to him. I don't know that. So you said that you met with Duncan since a couple of months ago, but yet you have in your security logbook that he first started work on the second of the 12th, 2022. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I know you've been working with me for a while. You only work two days a night. You work two times a week, which is Fridays and Saturdays. I don't see many other days apart from Fridays and Saturdays. Okay. All right. Why did you stop entering information into your logbook? Why did you stop all of a sudden making interest? We had a fire incident. The premises was closed down for a while. So that's when, that's why, we're just hoping to back up again for a while because the fire went down, we had to rebuild the place. That's what happened. And bear that out, Cher, because the stuff in the kitchen is new. Okay, and the fire started in the kitchen? No, it started downstairs in the basement. Yeah, where the main power comes into the building, I think there was something that happened. It affected nearly the whole line, but actually the effect was more in our restaurant. In your restaurant. So is the plan in your restaurant that we saw up there, the layout exactly the same? Yes, ma'am. We don't use the basement. Just for storage. That's where all the acoys, so when the explosion started, nobody was allowed to go there. Because we ran out of the restaurant. The fire safety was going there. We had to let everything burn down. Because the gas is coming in through that same basement as well. So the fire was severe. That was what led to actually doing anything. Okay, my last question. You've got a function coming up in December, you said. I can't remember the date. What kind of function is it? Sorry, ma'am? What kind of function is it? Function four. You said you have a nurse's new... Oh, okay. Every last Friday of the month, we get the GPs. They have trainings. If there is any new development that needs to be discussed, we hold that in our premise. So they come to your restaurant and... We close the restaurant. After the teaching, they eat. They're mainly seated anyway. That's one of the main functions that we have. Then we already had some bookings, like where I work in Newham Centre for Mental Health, they want to come to my restaurant to have the Christmas due, which is in the future. Okay, will you be hiring out your restaurant? Sorry, ma'am? Will you be hiring out your restaurant? No, it's not hired. They just come in there. In the future, going forward, would you be hiring your restaurants for birthday parties, christenings, or anything like that? I have no further questions. Yes, I would like to ask about the conditions, why these conditions are put on the license. A lot of the conditions, obviously the license is to sell alcohol as part of the license, and there are strict conditions relating to the sale of alcohol, and they're conditions that you have breached. So could you explain to us why you think we put those conditions on your license? Why you think those conditions regarding sale of alcohol are on the license? It's to guide the principles of the license. How? Because I put it to guide the rules and regulations. To protect the public and as well protect ourselves. All right, and how would you be protecting the public by those conditions, by adhering to those conditions? If we had closed when we are supposed to close, or stopped the sale of alcohol when we were supposed to sell, to stop selling alcohol, probably a lot of news and so whatever happens in the early hours of the morning would not have happened. That would be us like mitigating the antisocial or any other public news and behavior that would have happened, and that as well would protect us and our business. You know, we don't have no incidents, and things are done the way they're supposed to be done, when then we have a secured future with the business. And how would that work with the sale of alcohol ancillary to food because it should be a restaurant that you can have a drink with. And as I understand, you've been selling alcohol separately from food. Yeah. Yes, sometime what happened is when people buy food, they finish eating, and they buy just alcohol. So, that had contributed to the lapse in our, in the lion's sense conditions as well. You know, and sometimes they're standing at the bar. They should not have been standing at the bar we should have been like very strict on sit down while you're drinking, especially when you're drinking. But unfortunately, we failed in that aspect as well. You know, and those are the things that we're trying to just plead with the committee that we're giving another chance, you know, reduce hours. Make sure that people are sitting down, and I'm going to put a big blow up sign on the bar, no standing at the bar. Food, drink only with food while seated. Because you have had people come in, who haven't been eating at all, haven't you? Early hours of the morning, I wouldn't say no. But, you know, before midnight, when these people are sitting down eating, and sometime they will get up and stand at the bar, they eat like meat. We have like the stick meats, so people can, people do sit down at the bar, because we got a high chair opposite the bar. So they sit, they eat the meat, like stick meat, we call it sui abago. So those kind of things, they, when they finish it, we clear off after them and they continue drinking. But unfortunately they stay standing, because some people just want to stand up and, you know, like socialize in their own way. So why would the condition of the ancillary to food, alcohol only, ancillary to food, why would that condition be there, do you imagine? To prevent people like getting drunk and constituting nuisance. Good condition to adhere to. Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair. Just one other question, Riele. Obviously the premises is a restaurant, even though it appears it hasn't been strictly adhered to. Can I ask how many hours, approximately a week, does the chef work, or do you directly employ a chef? Oh, every day. Right. Every single day we have a chef. Good. Thank you. I work there as well. Oh, OK. Look. It must be hard being a zero nurse as well, and the fact that I'm aware of nurses doing only hours. With the NHS, I do like two days in the restaurant as well. Thank you. So just before we go, how will you control the smoking area outside because that's one of the conditions for you to prepare an area. I haven't heard you mention anything about that. Yeah, with the smoking issue, we can create a space at the back. Right. So would that mean your clients would have to walk through the kitchen? No, no, through the toilet area. Right. It's a separate corridor. How many people? Yeah. How many people at any given time? That place conveniently can take like four people. I think we could agree on a condition of six people maximum. Six people maximum? I work on a 10% theme chair. It's just probably bonkers, but I would say a maximum of six outside smoking at any one time. OK. And the area to be covered by - can you get a camera out there? Yes, sir. The area to be covered by a CCTV camera. OK. And noisy clients outside and waste dispersal. So how would you monitor that? With the espresso, we have our own bin outside. We have the cancel. The commercial? The commercial waste bin and they pick it up twice a week. The waste dispersal actually does not come from the restaurant, unfortunately, but it's kind of attributed to us. We are the restaurant that is there. It's not on our bin. Some people come from outside from other residents in that area. They come and they drop their bin around there. But our bins are always in the government approved waste dispersal bin and they pick it up twice a week. In addition to that, I'm the only one that has the bin among all the restaurants in that line. So do you find that people drop their litter outside your premises? Yeah, because we are the only one that has the council bin and don't. So I'm asking if that's the case, if that's the case, if you see rubbish outside your premises next to your bin, you just walk past it and go inside? Sometimes I have one time been nosy and opened to check because our bin was like empty when I opened it. And there was the black bag, black bin bag outside. And I was like, I went in the restaurant, I was like, why is the bin on the floor? I came back, opened it and it's got nothing to do with our restaurant. So there is no way I can find out who's left the bin there. I picked it up and dumped it in our bin just to keep that area clean. But most of the time when it happened, not all the time, but sometimes when it happened, because there is an instruction there where they've instructed people who live around that area to put their bin on the road. So it's not, yeah, it's not just, we are commercial, we're supposed to dispose of our bin in a certain way. Okay. People who lives around there, they're allowed to put their bin on the road and the council truck pick it up. Okay, thank you very much, thank you, thank you, thank you. Noise and nuisance, your clientele coming out, making noises and talking and laughing and what have you, how would you monitor that? People coming in to pick up food from Uber Eats and all these people, how are you going to monitor that noise? Clientele, people coming in and out of your premises? We do a dispersal policy. Sorry. We'll do a dispersal policy. Yeah. We'll offer a dispersal policy that I'll draft. Any further questions? No, thank you, Chair. Only one, as you've mentioned noise, have you had complaints about noise? How would you deal with them if you did or you dealt with them? We haven't had any, but if we have complaints about noise, we'll try to, I think, I will try to find out what time of the day. Because if you go on our door, once you enter, you have the respect the neighbors, no noise, keep the noise down, everything. All the stickers are there on the door. So probably is when people go outside, smoke. So if we are allowed to still continue trading, that is going to be mitigated by creating a smoking area at the back with a walking CCTV camera there. So noise, that will at least reduce the complaints. And for music? For the music, we have scenes and decided like after the incident, that is, bring the volume really down to like the ambient level so that people are talking and hearing each other, not shouting over the music. That has seen happen. And we tend to continue like that, though, even if people want to come in and they want to hear music, and we tell them we can't, you can't have loud music anymore and they go back. Yeah, it's affecting the business, the take-up, the taking. But after a while, I'm sure people get used to that environment and accepted the way it is. It'll have like a bounce back effect. Customers will come back. We're going to struggle at the initial stage, but I'm sure it's going to be okay. Thank you. I think the dispersal policy chair will reflect the monitor to the outside. The outside part, yes. Thank you. Did you open Saturday evening, Saturday just gone, Saturday the 9th of October? Yes. What time did you close last Saturday? That's Saturday. Close 12-13th? 13th out of the security people that you've employed. On Saturday night, I was the one on the door with the other guy you arrested. The other guy last Friday. Yeah, I have his office. The following night, I was going to tell you to fill the book out. Chair, sorry to interrupt you, but is it possible that I can have a break for five minutes? Yes, of course. I'm going to adjourn for five minutes so you can get your bits and pieces together, because I'm sure they're going to give you quite a good grilling. So just five minutes and then we'll call you back when we're ready. All right, thank you. So this is now adjourned, five minutes. Thank you. So thank you for asking your last question, your first question. We established that you opened it past midnight on Saturday the 19th, remember? Yeah. Details of the other security guard. I'll tell you security guard. Have you got the details of the other security guard? Can we say the name of that one? Is that safe, Mandy? Sorry, just repeat. Is it safe to read it out loud? There was one. This is for just the purpose of the hearing today. I don't have to have the actual name, but just there was one and it's been updated. I mean, you can... Which number? Yeah. Yeah. I'll take my glasses off. Sorry about that. 1019. Hold on a second. Was it? Sorry. 1019. Yep. 699. Yep. 274. Yep. 608. Yep. 274. And that is on an SIA letter, Chair. Checked it. I haven't checked it myself yet. Is it okay? I couldn't get onto the site. I'm a business accountant. No more questions. No more questions. Okay. As a restaurant cafe bar. At the moment, it would have to be a restaurant. I did mention to the committee, subcommittee, we are looking to put in a variation in due course. But at the moment it will be a restaurant. That's the conditions on the restaurant. On the license. Yeah. Do you, because you've got live music on the current license. So would you still have live music? No. Would you? No. Have that. We don't want the live music anymore. The answer is no. Have recorded music. Have ground not yet. Yeah. Not live music, but performance of dance. No. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. I've got a couple of questions. Yeah. You're the personal license holder. Or a personal license holder. You are. Is there anyone else who's a personal license holder? No. So when you're not there, there's no personal license holder on the premises. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, to my understanding, are you also not a personal holder? I have a premises license. You have what? A premises license. And you've got the personal license. Yes, ma'am. We have advised Miss Bello to apply for a personal license. I will be doing. She will be doing that. Of course. To get a personal license. Because there is a condition to say that if a personal license has to be on the premises during the great notice, then clearly it's not been happening. Also, Miss Graham said that you put out Channel 25 notices. They're all up now, are they? And all the notices? Yes. And that was done prior to the visit on the 18th? Yes. They were put up in my presence on the night of October. Okay. So that's fine. That's great. And that should be done because of the condition of the license. Yeah. So why was that done? And the SIA, one of the most important, why wasn't that done? Why wasn't the SIA on that night? You can't almost write anything left. You put the blue notices, sorry, the Channel 25 notices, which is, in all due respect, an easy task to do. Print it off, stick on the wall. That's an easy win. But the important one was, in my view, was the SIA because that's where the problems lie. And there wasn't an SIA on that night when the officers come in. The SIA was me and the other guy. No, but you, no, you wasn't there and the other guy wasn't there. Yeah. Last Friday. And on Friday. The notices were up, which you've done, put up for your presence. But the most important one was the SIA because the police mentioned it. I mentioned it in my letter of supporting it. So why wasn't they put in place? I didn't see anybody with my vis on. Why didn't we see anybody with a badge on? Why was there a guy sitting there eating dinner when he should have been? The notices were up, fine, but the most important one, if the notices hadn't have been there, we could have let that, but the SIA is so important. And that wasn't there. Yeah. At that time, the SIA, the other security guy, was running late and we apologised for that. It's not going to happen again. But this was, what time was this? 2011. Yeah. 11 o'clock. 10. 10 and 11, yeah. Then he went there. 11 o'clock and he still wasn't there. Oh, he was, he came later? Did you not see him? We left about past 11. Then he went there. So Vince was on the side. Vince was on the side? Yeah. But the other guy wasn't. You didn't have a badge on? So in all effect, you wasn't the SIA on that night because you didn't. No, when I came... But you guys were there. And we came to ask him some questions. You didn't have SIA on that night, did you? Yeah, for my SIA visit, I brought up my ID to show the lady. The lady now had me check the other guy. But he wasn't there, so he wasn't there. He came after. He wasn't there when the officer came in. So when they came in, no. Then he's SIA. No, at that time, no. That's what we were saying. There was none because Vincent was not there. And the other guy wasn't there. But when Vincent came, at the time the police visited, you guys visited, no. There was no SIA. No, sir. The one that was being... He's the one with the badge that doesn't... No, he wasn't. He was sitting down in dinner. He was eating. He was... He didn't have his badge. Exactly, because that day he was not even working. So it was Vincent and the other guy who was in there, who did not come early. And when he came, we were closing down already. Thank you. Any further questions, please? Thank you. I just have a quick question, because what time should have the security officer been there? I think it's 10 o'clock. 10 o'clock? 10 o'clock. Okay. I think the visit was done at 11 to 11, and they left at half 11. There was no security there. So what would you do in the future if your security guy is running late? You see 10 o'clock come, you've got people coming in, and he's not there. What would you do? I'm only out there all the time. You don't understand. Vincent, there's supposed to be two. You are only one man, two. So if it comes to the point where 10 o'clock comes and your second security officer hasn't come in, what are you going to do? What would you do? Okay. Vincent is one. We need another second one. And if that happens again, I think we'll have to review a contract with him. Are you shocked? Yeah. We will not close. We will not open if the SI guy will not be at the door. Can I ask one more question? Yeah. You're saying Vincent is a student of the guard? Yeah. Do you think a security guard, he's the manager of the place as well, so he's looking after running the place, and he's got to work the door as well. Do you think that's successful? Normally, we have two of them. They said one other and you. That's what we've just been told. So you're the security. You're standing out the front with the high vis on and your badge on. That's what you should be doing if you're security. You've got one other person, which we've never seen. Do you think it's reasonable that you're managing the premises? I mean, we've seen you sweeping the floor. You're managing that premises, but you've also got to be a security guard as well. Do you think that's reasonable? At the moment, we had two, which one of them, obviously, is not like the one that had the fake badge, right? So we'll look to get another one to support the other one that is on. He said he's a security. He's SI trained and he's got a badge. But what usually would happen when we have two of them outside, Vincent tried just go around, but I don't know what happened that day that he was cleaning, you know what I mean, cleaning after the. Just as will happen, just for clarity purposes. Yes, ma'am. OK, you've got Vincent will be what you're saying is the backup and you've got the one that the police are looking into now. Make sure he's kosher and then you're going to employ another CIA. Yes, ma'am. So you will have two plus Vincent who will be the backup if anything happens and you might have to step in temporarily. Yes, ma'am. What you're saying? OK, I mean, obviously, it's happening, but looking forward, he'd have to give up the management role because quite often this fellow is there anyway. You've heard in the kitchen. So she's the joint manager anyway. But since he's going to be on the door, he has to put on his wife, his badge sign in the book. That's what he's doing. He's the door supervisor when he finishes, when the other bloke turns up late, they can swap over. But when you're a doorman, that's what we're asking you. Sorry, just how many of them? Did you not say to us that you work for Newham three days a week? Yes, ma'am. OK, so you're saying that the other four days a week, you're in the bar, in the restaurant? I work mainly weekends in the restaurant. Right. Yeah, but on the day of the incident, I wasn't around because I took my kids on holiday. Right. Around that weekend. Right. I do, I work as a mental health nurse. Yeah. Monday to Wednesday. Right. Three days a week. And then Thursday? Friday, at the restaurant, Thursday, on Thursday most of the time, Friday and Saturday night. Right. And you take Sunday off? I take Sunday off, yeah, because I start work again. And how many members of staff work in your restaurant? I've got two other people working. That's not including Vincent and the two? That's not including me. Is that just the kitchen staff? Just the kitchen staff. So they've got the bar staff as well? They've got one bar staff and two kitchen staff. Yes, three, okay. Right, so that's three days. Did she want to ask a question? No, I don't think so. I'm just a bit confused about SIA's. Please ask a question. Yes. About how many SIA's there are. There's the one who appeared to be an SIA but isn't. Yes. And then did you have another one apart from Vincent? Yes, ma'am. I've just given the number. The number we've just grabbed. Has he been there all the time? Yes, he's on the book too. But you've not had any contact with him? No, he's just had the number. Scooted the number. So I've just looked and if you look at my exhibit, IAW5, it's the names of security officers. So is that in the main agenda? That's in my first magazine. Yes. Is it an exhibit? Which exhibit is it? That's ours. So is it on page 21? Yes, it's on page 21 of the supplementary. It's the top of page 21. Okay. And Michael Smith. M. Smith. The number that it's the same M. Smith, I'm going to say it is. That is an SIA card that expires August next year. Right. That's the badge number tally up. I'm working on a different badge number. So whether he's reported this one as lost or I don't know, but this one would have been in play until next year, because it's now a different number. So he's obviously ordered another replacement. It was just to confirm it. But he was legitimate at the time. He's checked the website and Michael Smith is registered. Okay. Okay, that's sort of it. Right. Are there any more questions? Any further questions? Is there any further questions? Right. Okay. Sum it up for me. Thank you. Okay. Vincent. When we first went in there and I asked him about the previous weekend and he said, well, maybe there's confusion today, but you asked him how long. He said a few months. And then obviously we've seen him on there. So maybe there's confusion. I don't know. But to go in there Friday night. And I'm actually surprised there is a person that was there saying, I'm genuinely surprised. I'm glad. I'm genuinely surprised. Because from the metropolitan places point of view, we've got no faith. Thank you very much. Okay. We are now going to deliberate. So I'm going to call you back when we're ready. So I'm going to now go to a journalist meetings. Thank you. It's an agenda. Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you for coming back. We have in fact made a decision. And it's been approved by. Maranissa. Thank you. Thank you very much. So the decision has been made as follows that there'll be a suspension of the license for a period of two months. Conditions of the license will be modified further, which will be confirmed in writing. That includes a change in the. And the opening and closing times. So the opening and closing times will be amended as follows Sunday, Thursday, 11 AM until 1230 AM. Friday and Saturday, 11 AM until one 30 AM. Friday and Saturday, 1600 hours until 1 AM. Late night refreshments Sunday to Thursday, 2,300 hours until 12 AM. Friday and Saturday, 2,300 hours until 1 AM. There will also be the removal of the DPS. There will also be the maintenance and maintenance. So the full decision will be confirmed in writing, which will set out all of the conditions and the modifications. In writing, it will be, should be in five working days. Thank you. The applicant and responsible authorities and interest parties may appear against the decision to the magistrates court. Then 21 days. Okay. So we've seen all the business up to scratch and what have you. I hope this two months gives you the opportunity to get your business model sorted out once and for, and as you've said, you'll be working and operating as a restaurant and nothing else. And maybe in due course, once you've sorted everything out,