Transcript

OR, Good morning, everyone. Welcome to this meeting of Denvershire County Council being held on 22 May 2024. This meeting is being webcast with the exception of any business that council resolves to exclude the press and public because of the likely disclosure of exempt information as defined by the local government Act 1972. This meeting is being held as a hybrid meeting with members attending in person at the council chamber County Hall Riffin or remotely via video conference. Those attending remotely are kindly asked to mute their microphones unless they are called upon to speak. Members are also asked to have their video switched on throughout the meeting unless the chair specifically requests you to turn your video off to improve the quality of the audio link when you are speaking. You will be expected to restart your video once you have finished speaking. Please also refrain from using the chat facility as messages sent to all are visible on the webcast. Those present in the chamber are asked to make sure that they speak directly into the microphone to improve the quality of the sound for those attending remotely and to aid transparency all of the meetings business must be conducted through the chair. I'll just confirm the attendance of committee today on whether the member is on zoom or in the chamber. We have Councillor Chard is on zoom, Councillor Ellis on zoom, Councillor Elson is in the chamber, Councillor Justine Evans is on zoom as is Councillor Harland and Councillor Hugh Hillditch Roberts. Councillor James is in the chamber, Councillor Dalith Jones and is on zoom as is Councillor Emendes, Councillor Parry and Councillor Roberts are in the chamber, Councillor Sandilands and Councillor Tomlin are on zoom and we have Councillor Elvid Williams and Councillor Young in the chamber. Sorry and we also have Councillor Julie Matthews on zoom apologies. So we'll move into the agenda for today's meeting and the first item is apologies which I don't have any apologies. The second item is declarations of interest. Members will be aware of the requirement under the council's code of conduct to declare any personal or prejudicial interests in respect of any business to be considered at today's meeting. Such interest should be declared now or as soon as the member affected becomes aware that they have a personal or prejudicial interest in today's business. All members declaring an interest are required to state clearly what the interest is and to advise whether it is a personal interest or a personal or prejudicial interest as defined in the code of conduct. Any member declaring a prejudicial interest is required to leave the meeting for the duration of the business and can take no part in the proceedings. Members with a personal interest only may take part in the debate and any vote. If a personal or personal or prejudicial interest is declared today that has not previously been disclosed and recorded the member concerned will be required to complete and sign a declaration of interest form which is either available from the committee support staff in attendance here today or online. Do we have any declarations of interest? No declarations of interest? We've been onto the next item which is the appointment of the chair. Do we have any proposals to nominate the chair? Yes, thank you. I'd like to nominate Mark Young as chair for this municipal year of 2425. I don't think he wants me to say anything about him. Well, I'll try. So yeah, he's very experienced as we all know and has led us, Admiral Bee over the last year, so more than happy to support his nomination. Thank you. Do we have a second? Councillor Roberts, thank you. Do we have any other nominations for another member? No. Sorry, I've just noticed that we've got Chris Evans on Zoom as well. Okay, so that means that as there's only one person nominated, we don't need to go to the vote, so Councillor Jung is now the chair. [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] Members, and thanks for the support, and as you know, I'll do my best and I look forward to working with all officers, members and residents for the benefit of our Q&D, Jock and Barry, thank you. And I will now go to item four, which is the appointment of vice chair, and I'm happy to propose Councillor Alan James, the vice chair of previous year. Councillor Ellichard, please. And I'd like to second your proposal. And congratulations on becoming chair again. Okay. Okay, welcome out. Thank you. Okay. Do we have any other nominations please? Okay, Jock and Vow, so I think we've only got one that's okay. So, Jock and Vow, Councillor Alan James, look forward to working with you for another year. We work well together and it's a privilege to Jock and Vow, thank you. I just quickly thank everybody for their support. Thank you very much indeed, thank you. Okay, Jock and Vow, thank you. And before I start, it's item five, urgent matters, and I'm just going to touch here on the sad loss of Councillor Windmill and James. We all knew we're very fond of her. I worked with her for a long time. And the pleasure of being in the meeting with her recently wasn't a good meeting, it was a great meeting. And I thought with Alan and his family, and if I can just have a minute reflection before we start the meeting, that would be really appreciated. Jock and Vow, thank you. [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] Jock and Vow, thank you members. Okay, thank you members. I'm now going to go through the minutes. I'll go from first for accuracy, and the matters are rising. So, item six, the minutes, I'm going to go from page nine, page ten, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16. Okay, are we happy with those minutes, please can someone propose. Okay, Jock and Vow, Jock and Vow. And any matters arising from those minutes, please? Okay, we're all happy. I'm going to go on to the applications item seven application for Commission for Development, item seven to 12. And I will start with item nine, which is page 147 in the PAC code 162020894BC. The location is Cluitgate Motown, Clambetta, Dr. and Cluit Riffin. The proposal is a provision of external alterations, lighting, and associated works. The application is retrospective. The local member is Councillor Hugh Williams. Officer recommendation is to grant. We do have a public speaker, if I can call Kerry James up now, please. And we will listen to her, and then we will go to the debate. Jock and Vow, thank you. You've got three minutes, and we start when we start speaking, and we are stripped from the time, and both Jock and Vow, thank you very much. Bharata, good morning. I would like to take this opportunity to make a few comments regarding the application before you. Members will be aware that the building previously operated as a motel. The site was vacant for over 12 years until the current owners purchased the site in August 2020. At that time, the building was in a very poor state of repair and the grounds neglected. The building had undergone extensive repair punishment, costing over £1 million, to provide high quality tourism accommodation. The owners recruited local contractors for the refurbishment and continued to use local tradesmen. They also employ aid cleaners, gardeners, handymen, window cleaners, carpet cleaners and painters. They were all local to the area. Visitors to Cluegate Manor also contribute to the local economy by spending in local shops and restaurants. It is understood that the main issues surrounding the application are the effects of external lighting upon ecology, the dark sky and residential amenity. There are no objections to the external alterations to the building. We regard to the visual impact of lighting upon the dark sky, a detailed lighting assessment has been submitted which recommended reducing the extent of lighting and amending existing specifications. Following consultation, the lighting scheme has been amended further. The Public Protection Officer and AOMB Joint Committee raised no objections to the amended scheme. To address concerns over the feature window, the owners will install a tint material to reduce the light from the internal chandelier. It is not considered that the development would have any detrimental impact upon the AOMB dark sky. With regards to the impact upon ecology, the application is accompanied by an ecological report confirming that the adjacent generator building is a back roost. A dark corridor to the rear of the motel building would be retained to provide a link from the roost to the nearby woodland. The proposals have been drawn up in consultation with the ecology officer who raises no objections. It is not considered that the development would have any detrimental impact upon ecology. With regards to residential amenity, the proposed changes include the insertion of the feature window within the existing grunt elevation. Given the relationship between the building and adjacent occupiers, it is not considered that the development would result in any overlooking. With regards to potential noise nuisance, the application relates to external alterations only and not the use of the site. Having regard to the above, the development would comply with policies RD-1, VOE-2 and VOE-5 of the LDP. With regards to design on the AOMB residential amenity and ecology, we respectfully request that the application be approved in accordance with the recommendations of the planning officer. I thank you for your time. There was some late papers on this. Make sure you have read them, please. I will just give the ladies some time to sit down. Then I will bring in offices just to confirm some issues which have been raised in summary. Make sure you have read the late reps, please. Obviously there was some concerns regarding lighting. I just bring offices because I believe some work has happened on that but we just give us a summary of concerns and what has been actioned on why you have approved the application and you feel there has been improved enough to support. Thank you, Chair. Just to clarify that the works are retrospective. It is described as a retrospective application. The works are undertaken initially, obviously what raised the complaints in the area and our enforcement team investigated and that is why we have the application in front of us. In assessing that application as the public speakers just make clear, there has obviously been a change to the scheme. What we would be approving is not what is on the ground at the moment. There are further improvements to be made to the lighting at the site to ensure that we meet our sort of requirements in terms of dark skies. I just want members to be clear there that what is there at the moment isn't what we are granting permission for. There is further moves. If you look at page 174 of your report, there is a list of the improvements that are to be carried out. If you look at your conditions on page 182, you have got a rafter conditions there. For example, condition number 2 secures the implementation of those improvements so that we have got the enforcement powers to take action and make this scheme acceptable. That is how we have come to it based on public protection response and the AMMB officer who raised no objections. We are recommending grants. Thank you. Councillor Paddy, please. It looks clear that they have done quite a lot of work with you over this. Is there a time scale for this work to be done? Yes. If the condition number 2 states that to just go through that with the implemented within 4 months the date is permission. Looking at where we are in the time of year, 4 months from now, it has to be a place before we start to get to the darker nights. Thank you. Councillor Paddy. Following that, I propose we grant this application. Councillor interjecting. Do we have a seconder? Councillor Roberts, please. Any other questions on this item, please? Okay. I just think Paul has to go through the voting for this, then. There is no one else talking about. Paul just confirmed the voting for this application. Yes, yes, as ever, it will be with a roll call in terms of the voting. If you want to go with the officer recommendation to grant, you will be saying for if you don't want to go with the officer recommendation to grant, you will say against. Thank you, Chair. Councillor interjecting. Thank you. Councillor CHARG, please. Councillor interjecting. Councillor Laius, please. Oh, blade. Paul. Councillor ELSON, please. Grant. Councillor CRISSEVEN's, please. Oh, blade. Paul. Councillor Justine Evans, please. Oh. Councillor Harlan, please. Oh, blade. Paul. Councillor HLDER, please. Oh, blade. Paul. Councillor James, please. Oh, blade. Paul. Councillor Jones, please. Oh, blade. Paul. Councillor Matthew's, please. Oh. Councillor Mendes, please. Oh. Councillor Metri, please. Oh. Councillor Parry, please. Oh. Councillor Robert's, please. Oh, blade. Councillor Sandalins, please. Oh, blade. Oh. Councillor Tomlin, please. Oh. Councillor Shadow Williams, please. Oh. Councillor Elvid Williams, please. Oh, blade. Councillor Vell and myself, Councillor Young, and four. Okay, Jocken Vell, so that's been approved along with officer recommendation, and that's 19 for no abstentions and none of the games, Jocken Vell, thank you. Okay, I'm now on item number 10, page 185, code 16, 2021, 1, 2, 3, 3, P.F. The location is the outbuild in it, fluid gate motel, some better, nothing fluid riffing. Opposed to the conversion of a former generator building from one holiday accommodation unit formation of lay by and associated works. Local member is Councillor HU. Williams, officer recommendation is to grant. We have a public speaker again, it's Kenny James, if you can come up please. Councillor Vell, thank you. Send me on three minutes from when you start speaking, Jocken Vell, thank you. Baradah, good morning. I would like to take this opportunity to make a few comments regarding the application before you. The mission is sought for the conversion of this resident building to form holiday accommodation. The site is within the same ownership as the adjacent fluid gate motel, a high quality tourism offer. It is understood that the main issues surrounding the application are the principal of development, the impact of the development of on ecology, the dark sky, residential immunity and highway safety. There are no objections to the proposed external alterations to the building which are limited. With regards to the principal of development, the proposals would record policies PSE 5 and 4 and PPW which support the re-use of rural buildings for tourism development. With regards to lighting in the dark sky, the concerns received relate to the adjacent fluid manner and not for generator building itself. The applicants would welcome a planning condition requiring a submission of external lighting details. The scheme would be drawn up having regard to the dark sky status. With regard to the impact upon ecology, the application is accompanied by an ecological report concerning that the building is a bat roost. The proposals will provide for the retention of the bat roost within the roof space. A dark corridor to the rear of the motel building would be retained to provide a link from the roost to the nearby woodland. The proposals have been drawn up in consultation with the ecology officer, he raises no objections. It is not considered that the development would have any detrimental impact upon ecology and bats. In accordance with PPW the proposal will provide for biodiversity gain through the provision of Sparrow and Ranbird boxes. With regards to residential immunity, there are no immediate residential properties that will be impacted by the proposed development. It is not considered that the development would result in any nuisance relating to light or noise pollution. The applicants intend to install an imposed glazed window to the bathroom to ensure no loss of privacy. With regards to highway safety, the proposals provide for a pull-in, drop-off area adjacent to the building and a car parking space with an existing car park for the adjacent manner. The highways officer and Welsh government raise no objections. It is not considered that the development would have any detrimental impact upon highway safety. Having regard to the above, the development would comply with policies RD-1, PSE-4, PSE-5, VOE-2, VOE-5 and SA-3 of the LEP with regards to design, ecology, residential immunity and highway safety. We respectfully request that the application be approved and in accordance with the recommendations and I thank you for your time. Thank you. There is a moment, please, and then any questions. Okay, Councillors, any questions, please? Councillor ROBBINS, please, talking about your career. The lady was saying that nobody was against this scheme. Am I right in saying that because I am reading the page I have here that there are people against this people. Thank you, Chair. Just to clarify that, we have received letters of objection to the proposal on this application. However, they were made on the same form as for the previous application. So, the comments that they make within are to do with the retrospective lighting, which does not refer to this building. So, we have obviously taken those objections on this because they have quoted that reference number. But specifically, those comments are referring to the previous application. I think the issues that are raised are equally applicable to this. Obviously, it is not retrospective, this particular application. Considerations are the impact on the AOMB, impact on external lighting, impact on biodiversity. And as again, as the public speakers alluded to, that within the submission, they have covered those terms, they have worked with ecologists, they have tried to take on board the AOMB comments. And then again, if you look at the conditions at page 217, there is again another raft of conditions there that seek to control those impacts. So, for example, condition 7 says no external lighting people put on without our permission. Condition number 3, we limit it to be a holiday let use only. You know, there is a range of conditions. So, again, we look at everything in balance and we consider the applications to be acceptable. Thank you. Well, I think it is worth noting, some of the concerned raised do apply to both applications. So, we will note that. And thank you for the question. That is brilliant, Bob and Jockemow. OK, Councillor Parry, did you want to come in, please? Yeah, I could just do with a little bit of clarification on the entrance and exits of the sites, because it has always been slightly confusing of how you get in and out of, and whether you are going at the right drive or the one that is owned by whoever is. So, just maybe you could just clarify how you get in and out of the sites. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, difficult to explain this verbally. So, if we sort of scroll to the plans at the start, and anyone who knows the area, as you are coming up the clear gate hill from the fromrith in heading towards mould, you want to be using the first access on the left as you go. If you go past that access, you end up going to the other fluid gates, which is the pub. So, for clarity, it is the access, but let's look at the site plan that you have got on page with me. Actually, we look at page 199. You can actually see the access comes in from the bottom or the left hand side of the screen. That is the access to be used. There is also a planning condition that is put forward to improve that access in terms of making sure there is a passing place on it, because it is a narrow track. So, if you have got more people coming and going on that, they need a passing place. So, that is a condition. I think it is condition number five, I think. Thank you. Okay, happy that. Councillor CASSIDY, welcome back. Councillor CASSIDY, please. Hi, morning. On page 206, could we elaborate concerns over ownership boundaries, not accurate, why are they not accurate? Thank you. Good question, officers, please. Thank you. Yes, that is a concern that has been raised. Obviously, those concerns have been put to the applicants and they confirm that they do own the land, that it is their land in their ownership. I think this is an age-old problem that we have in planning, is when one party says that is not their land and the other party says it is. Ultimately, we have to accept those declarations in good faith. It is illegal to civil law responsibility of the applicant to make sure they have the right to use that land. They have stated they do. Applicants are disagreed. That would then become a matter for civil law case, if there is someone wanted to challenge their ownership. So, it does not have a material bearing on this application. Thank you. Councillor interjecting. Any friends? Councillor interjecting. Okay, drop a round. Thank you. Okay, any other questions, please? Councillor interjecting. Okay, Councillor Paddy, please, drop a round. Yes, I am happy to support this application, Chair. Councillor Paddy, proposed seconded by Councillor James, drop a round. I will now bring officers just to confirm the voting for this and I will move to the vote if there is never no more questions on this drop a round. Thank you, Chair. As with the previous application, if you want to go with the officer recommendation to grant, it will be full if you are against that recommendation. It will be against. Thank you very much. Okay, drop a round. Thank you. Councillor JARDE, please. Councillor ELLIS, please. Ablaid. Councillor ELLIS, please. Councillor CASSIDY. Councillor CASSIDY. Councillor CASSIDY. Councillor interjecting, please. Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. Councillor. Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. Councillor H [INA] Councillor interjecting. Councillor HILDIS Roberts, please. Ablaid. Councillor JAMES, please. Councillor BRIAN. Councillor JONES, please. Ablaid, please. Councillor MATHEWS, please. Sorry, Councillor MATHEWS. I think you're on mute, sorry. Councillor BRIAN. Thank you. Councillor MENDIES, please. Councillor MENDIES, please. Councillor MENDIES, please. Councillor PADDY, please. Councillor BRIAN. Councillor ROBBIE, please. Councillor BRIAN. Councillor SANDLETON, please. Councillor BRIAN. Ablaid. Councillor BRIAN. Councillor BRIAN. Councillor SANDLETON, please. Councillor BRIAN. Councillor BRIAN. Councillor SHETTLE, WILLIAMS, please. Councillor LEWID, WILLIAMS, please. Councillor BRIAN. Councillor BRIAN. Thank you. Councillor BRIAN. So that's been approved, along with Officer of Recommendation, and that's 19 for no abstentions and non-against Dr. Bail. Okay, I'll move on to the next item, and I will start with item number 7 page 17, the code number 0120200315BF. The location is former North Wales hospital. In their DIMBIC, the proposal is to approve of the S106 agreement, terms, and updated planning conditions, the hybrid planning application 01202115PF at the former North Wales hospital, which was the conversion restoration part demolition, adoption of main range with listed buildings to residential use, demolition of nursing home, mortuary isolation ward, and former gas works, buildings and developments of land within the hospital grounds for mixed use as enabling development, including residential units and business, commercial units, and provision of biodiversity areas, open space, access, drains and associated works. The local members are Councillor Pauline Edwards, Councillor Gannand Lloyd-Williams, and Councillor Delive Jones, who is a committee member for this committee, and officer recommendation is to defer. I am just going to bring officers in for the summary, because obviously this is a big application for DIMBIC and North Wales and Wales, just to confirm the position we're in, please. And can you just make sure you've all read the late sheets, just why are you going to come in? My poll just comes in, just to make sure you've read the late sheets as well as you're going to go. Thank you, Chair. Yes, as the Chair's highlighted there, there is some information on the late sheets for you there. The reason for officer recommendation to defer is that we had received some legal advice. You'll appreciate with a scheme of this size, the Section 106 legal agreement, which sets out the controls and delivery mechanisms for the whole project is quite complex, and therefore there's discussions that have been ongoing for a number of years now in relation to that. But even up until last Friday and the start of this week, there was still communication being passed back and forth between the developers and the Council, and specialist consultees, including natural resources, Wales. So where there was still ongoing communication and a lack of precise detail on the terms of the 106, it was felt that officers needed to defer this item until we got to that point of clarity, just to emphasise as well. Even if we had of determined this application at today's planning committee, we would have still needed to have finalised and signed the Section 106 legal agreement before a planning certificate could have been issued. So this doesn't delay matters in that regard. We're still working towards that final end product of a signed legal agreement with all the relevant details on. So in relation to the project delivery funding and the project happening, this doesn't delay it and cause any problems with that. So I just wanted to emphasise that, but I think from a legal perspective, we have received advice that we just need to finalise those points of clarity. Thank you, Chair. Okay, we don't normally go into a full debate of this deferral. You've had the reasoning behind this off officers, but I do know there's two hands up, so I will take it. So Councillor Sandalins, please, do you think about it? Yes, I'm just proposing that we defer because there's no point in talking about it, because we've got a legal position, is the legal position, and we go straight to a deferral, so I'm proposing a deferral. Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. Yes, Chair, as discussed by Paul there, this has been going on for several years and with the discussions going. And my question is, really, if we went through the planning today, we could get part of it over the line by getting there. The legal agreements, as with lots of different planning applications, the planning doesn't go through until the legal agreements are done, so I still think that we could make a decision on this today to get the actual application through, and then the legal agreements agreed then between officers, local members, and the third party members who, at least then we've got there. This is a big application that's happening in Denmark, which is probably one of the biggest we've had for years. It's so important that this is pushed through quicker. There's funding risks involved with this one from Welsh Government and from UK Government, whether this actually happens, so I'm against deferring this one, Chair. Councillor Elson, please. Thank you. I, too, am quite concerned that any planning application that go slow enough as it is, but I think, can we give any idea on the length of time that this deferment might take, because I say we do need to push it through. I think it's a very broad development for Denmark. On what Councillor Parry is, it's a reasonable statement, but there's a retrospective element to that, which is that puts us at risk, so I will just, if you can answer the question on time, and then I'll come back to Councillor Parry to see if these views are. Yes, of course, Chair. Thank you very much. I understand members' concerns in relation to this. I think fundamentally, what officers are trying to do is protect the Council's interest from a sort of potential judicial review perspective. There are always sort of legal risks of going through a democratic process like planning committee, where maybe not sufficient amount of clarity has been given to members on detail, so that's fundamentally why we're looking for deferral today. To reassure members, we are very close in relation to some of this detail, so it's not going to be, you know, six months, 12 months further down the line that we do come back. We're hoping that it can be next month or the month after so, so, yeah, we are very close in terms of finalising the detail, but it is protecting the Council's interest in terms of this decision today. I knew they'd have a late correspondence of natural resources, Wales on Friday, which shifted the pendulum. Is it not your thinking on this? Absolutely, yeah, without going into too much detail in relation to how the project would work, natural resources, Wales are a key regulator in this as well, so they would need a licence, the development would need to proceed with a licence, so communication with natural resources as well is such a late point in this issue. Again, it gives us cause to seek the deferral just to clarify those points. Thank you, Chair. Councillor Paddy. Yeah, I still think that there's a risk on, in everything we do, there's a big risk here on losing funding for this project, and if we lose the funding for this project, we then have got a massive risk for temperature of having to stand the cost of a derelict building that's been derelict for generations now going, and if this, Chair Paddy, or the people working with Jones Brothers working with this application, and if their funding doesn't come through, that's not going to happen, getting it over planning would be the first step, in my opinion, to getting it there. There's still isn't a risk if there's agreements need to be done, the planning won't be done fully done until the agreement is signed, but at least it gets us over the first hurdle, that's my opinion, so I'm still in favour of going through with it today, Chair. Okay, so we've got two proposals. Councillor SAM LAUNDS. I'll bring it in, please. Yes, I'd just like to amend my proposal to say I'm only deferring it to the next planning meeting, so there's a deadline there to be at the next planning meeting. Can that be done, officers? I think it's very difficult to insist that a planning application comes to a planning committee. Again, it's about detail and managing risk. I understand that there are concerns about funding that have been raised there in terms of one of the propositions to not defer today, but again, I'd emphasise the information that I've had from meetings with ambition, north Wales, and other funders in relation to this, is that this delay for today's planning committee won't affect the funding, so I just want to make that clear that the funding is not at risk in relation to this. Can we get it back to the next planning committee? The hope is yes. Is that a definite? Of course, we can't say that because there are further discussions that are ongoing, so I don't think you could make a proposition to insist that an application comes back to the next committee. What you're voting on today is a deferral from this committee. What I'm saying to you as the officer is that we are very close in terms of some of this detail, but the risk of going through today, we felt, is too high in relation to a potential challenge. Thank you, Chair.

• Councillor Samillas, you've got a response to your request for the deadline, any thoughts on that with your proposal? I'd still like it. The deadline to me is the next meeting, and that's all there is to it, so I'd still like to stick to my proposal of the next meeting. I think we need to sharpen our pencils and get this through, as Mervyn says, this proposal has been on the table for over a decade now. Let's get this past there. You know, diminishing resources, we've spent over a million pounds in time from officer's time. Let's get there, but let's get there with security. Another month or so, that should do it.
• Thank you. - Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, you've got about.
• Councillor JOHNSTON. - Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate entirely what Councillor Madam Chair is talking about here, the needs to push forward with this, but how have I feel as the local member, for where the development is, that I would like the assurance of what the detail is that it's going to come from through the through solicitors. If our solicitors are advising us to pause this for a little while, then I would rather that we did that at the moment. I think that it's important we had such a scheme of the size and the complexities that we have in front of us, that we have every information possible in front of us when we come to making the decision. So that we are assured in what we're doing. Having said that, I also appreciate what Councillor Sandilance is saying to get this back as soon as possible. So that we can press on with the scheme as well. So I would encourage officers to take that seriously, that they push what happens to be done as soon as possible. I think that it's difficult for us to say that it has to come back to the next planning meeting. But personally, I would rather that we can go with what Councillor advising at the moment. Especially so that they can provision that they've assured us that the money is going to be there. So that's not put at least at risk. That's the biggest, most important fact I think that we don't lose that financial support because that's essentially important. So if they are able to assure us that that is going to be in place, then I would propose that we continue with what the officers are proposing at the moment. Okay, Councillor Evans and then I do need to come to some agreements on how we're going to go forward on this. So, Councillor Chris Evans, please. Thank you, Chair. Just I wholeheartedly agree with moving that times we don't know where we're going to be in a month or two months, the funding could be cut. But my concerns is that we've worked on this project for over a decade, if we're listening to Mr. Gareth Sandlin. Why is it now until the, if you like, the last pit that the post to get it into planning, why are we having these issues now? These should have been sorted out long before it's coming to planning. And will we end up with, again, a building that is dilapidated? And if you like, Mr. Jones does not want to do anything with it, I totally agree with moving that. We have to vote on it today to get it and not to do for it. Thank you. Okay, here, what you're saying, Councillor Evans, obviously, some of the people who've been in touch in the last week, it's out of our control or to hear what you're saying. I'm going to bring officers in. We've got a clear proposal of a four or a regains. I'm going to go to that soon, but I will bring in officers just to touch on from the point raised. Yep, okay. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, I think as officers, we try to give you as much information as we can. I understand that there's frustrations. What I would stress is that this project is very complicated and with the best will in the world, we are trying to get it over the line. I think you have to sort of trust from an officer perspective that would advise in you that we are very close, that funding isn't at risk, that the project is moving forward and we're confident that it will happen. The issue that we've got is that at the last minute, as with a lot of planning applications that are less complicated than this, there's information that flies around at the very last minute in relation to some detail. That's why we're recommending deferral. We are hopeful that we can move it forward quickly after this, but I think you've got a choice to make here as a planning committee that you listen to the legal advice that we've received and the advice that you've received from officers that we're trying to protect the Council's interests here longer term in making sure that we get this right and we make the right decision at the right time, or you can feel that you've got enough information that that risk isn't as high as I'm explaining and you want to press on and have officers give and delegated authority to move forward with negotiating further on the legal, the finalizing of the legal agreement that could be maybe run by Demby member area group further down the line. They're the two choices that you've got. I don't think I can emphasise any further in relation to what I've said. Thank you, Chair. Okay, talking about, so I've got one proposal of Councillor Jones to have a seconder for that proposal. Okay, Councillor Williams. Okay, so it's a, I'll bring in just on the vote, so we're absolutely clear we've got a proposal to support officer recommendation. Just absolutely make sure we're clear we need to get this one right. Good. Oh, thank you very much, Chair. So the officer recommendation is to defer. So that's the, and that's, we've had a proposition for that as well. So if you're voting, it will be for a deferral against if you want a crack on and make the decision. Yeah, I just need a seconder. I got a seconder, Councillor, would you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, do you want me to just reiterate that again, because I think we've had a proposal and a seconder for it. So the officer recommendation is to defer, so if you with the officer recommendation to defer, say for, if you're against that recommendation to defer, say against. Thank you, Chair. That's clear, talking about, thank you. Okay, Councillor Chard, please.
• Councillor Ellis, please. Oblied, hold. Councillor Elton, please. Against. Councillor Chris Evans, please. Against. Councillor Justine Evans, please. Against. Councillor Harlan, please. Oblied. Councillor James, please. Oblied. Councillor Mendes, please. For Councillor Matri, please. Councillor Patty, please. Against. Councillor Robert, please. For Oblied. Councillor Sandaland, please. Oblied. Councillor Tomlin, please. For Councillor Shadow Williams, please. For Councillor Eldred Williams, please. Right. And Councillor Young, myself, I'm before. Chair, you never ask me. And Councillor Hildes-Roberts, please. Against. May I have the 14th? No, Joconbao, so that's been deferred, and that's 14th, 4th and 5th against. Joconbao, thank you. The members want a quick comfort break, yet we're just going to have... Can I just confirm that that amendment was for it to come in for next month, as the proposal was. Okay, I think Councillor Jones, can you just confirm? The steps need to be taken fully and should come back in next month and as soon as possible, but I would ask that officers move forward as soon as possible to bring this back to us, so we bear that in mind and keep that in mind. Okay, so we'll have... We'll come back at our past, Joconbao. He is a melting coffee in the area for drinks. 202-3-066-9 p.m. Location is the outbuilding at Havard Park, Botfarii. The proposal is a approval planning condition scheduled for the demolition of existing storage building and conversion of existing couch yet to form mondwelling, including the erection of a single-story extension, formation of park installation and treatment plant landscaping and associated works. Local members, Councillor Parry, officer recommend that members approve the suggested list of planning conditions as contained in the officers report. Okay, we don't have any speakers and I'll bring in the local member Councillor Parry, Joconbao. Thank you, Chair. This is just an application to go through the conditions to approve the conditions of the demolition of the existing storage building and conversion of the existing couch yet. So it's just been quite a long list of conditions that have got to be complied to with this thing and just to say that there was good support locally from the Queens Council and the general public in Botfarii for this application. So I propose we grant this with the officer recommendation. Okay, Joconbao, another seconder, Councillor Elvin Williams, Joconbao. Okay, anyone want to speak or can I go straight onto the voting which is a simple, your voting yes to approve officer recommendation, Joconbao. Okay, we're all happy. Councillor Chard, please. Councillor Eilish, please. Councillor Elton, please. Councillor Chris Evans, please. Your grant. Councillor Justine Evans, please. Councillor Holland, please. Councillor Hildes-Robbitch, please. Oblied, thought. James, please. Oblied, thought. Delif Jones, please. Oblied, thought. Councillor Matthews, please. Councillor Mendez, please. Councillor Metri, please. Against. Okay, Councillor Parry, please. Councillor Roberts, please. Oblied, thought. Councillor Sandalins, please. Oblied, thought. Councillor Tomlin, please. Four. Councillor Shadow Williams, please. Grant. Councillor Elwood Williams, please. Oblied, thought. Okay, that's been approved along with officer recommendation and that was 18 for no abstentions on one against Joconbao. Okay, Joconbao, item number 11, page 219, location is landed at Town Hall in Clang, Offlan and the proposal of the serving of confirmation of a tree preservation order, local members of Councillor Edwards and Councillor Keddie, officer's recommendation is that members confirm the tree preservation order as per the officer's report. I am just going to bring officers in just because of summary and confirm why this is before those Joconbao, thank you. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, I'll just try and offer some clarity on the purpose of why we're looking at this today. Essentially, it's a tree that's in the conservation area in Clang, Goslan. Previously, we've had applications made for works to tree under the conservation area act and in assessing those, our tree officers have said, Actually, this is such an important, valuable, attractive tree that it needs the higher standard of protection. We need to move it up to tree preservation order. So that's why we're here. We've had an objection to that tree preservation order from the owner of the tree, which is the town council of Clang, and their opinion is that the existing controls through the conservation area act are sufficient. However, the whole reason that there are two approaches to trees in conservation and conservation acts and TPO is that the TPO offers greater control over works to that tree. So based on the advice of our tree officer, we've made that TPO and because we've had an objection from the town council, we need to come to yourselves to get permission to confirm that tree order. In terms of the impact on the actual owner of the tree, they've always got to apply to work for works that tree, so it doesn't materially change the situation for them, it just affords us slightly greater control. I hope that helps members in looking at this. Thank you. And just to confirm this happened, how you'd communicate that with streets here and etc. just to make sure everyone understands the status of the tree. Yeah, basically, I mean, it makes it more aware because we obviously register it as a TPO on our mapping systems, it makes it clearer to anyone from the council from our street scene team that they need to apply for consent first before doing works that tree. Thank you. That's just another layer of protection for the tree, which we feel valuable. That's great to talk about. Okay, that's clear. Any questions on this, please? Okay, I think we're all okay now. And again, this is a straightforward yes, if you support the officer recommendation and know it, if you're the games jock and bow, I can't see any. Okay, do we need to propose a second? Yes, we do yet. Well, I'll propose it. Okay, come out. Council Parley and Councillor James are over the seconding. Okay, we're all happy. I'm going to start with the vote. Okay, Councillor Chard, please. Councillor Ellis, please. Obliged. Councillor Elson, please. Councillor Chris Evans, please. Four. Councillor Justine Evans, please. Four. Councillor Harlan, please. Four. Councillor Hildes-Roberts, please. Obliged. Four. Councillor James, please. Obliged. Four. Councillor Jones, please. Obliged. Okay, I couldn't hear anything then, Councillor Mathew, is your mute? I couldn't hear you then, Councillor. Okay, no, so can you, are you supportive of the? Yeah, four. Yeah, okay. Councillor Mendez, please. Yeah, four. Councillor Metry, please. Obliged. Four. Councillor Paddy, please. Four. Councillor Robert, please. Obliged. Four. Councillor Sandalyn, please. Chair, can I just say that Gareth has just messaged me to say his zoom has gone off. Okay, I just thought I'd let you all know. Okay, that's fine, Joachimau. Councillor Tomlin, please. Councillor Shadow Williams, please. Four. Councillor Elvid Williams, please. Obliged. Four. Councillor Young, and four. Okay, so that's been approved along with officer recommendation. That's 18 for no absentions and none against Joachimau, thank you. Okay, thank you members. Last one today. Our planning committee is item number 12, page 233 code 0120220523MA. Location is grind, quarry, in DIMBIC. The proposal is to request a member involvement in defending the local planner for the T's decision to refuse the planner permission to the application for extending extension and winning, I'm working of limestone, insert waste and restoration of the Meantieland local members, Councillor Pauline Edwards, Councillor Janette Lloyd Williams, our committee member is Councillor Delaf-Jones. And this is for planning committee, the local members can be involved. Anyway, I believe our processes and when we're defending applications is to have support of members of this committee. So, I'm after nominations, please, for this piece of work. Okay, Councillor Delaf-Jones, did you wish to come in? Thank you, Mr. Canadian. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. I'm happy to put myself forward to take up one of the administrative facts, what the Wish of the Council is. The committee is having said that, if the committee feels that there would be another two, that I could be part of it, you know, anyway, as a local member, that would strengthen voice, as I said, I'd be happy for that to happen. I would like to propose Councillor MURPHANPARI as one of the two. I think it would be good to have two, representing us with such a complex matter. I would like to offer Councillor MURPHANPARI as well. He has a wide planning and knowledge and also in areas that feel very relevant to this application, I'd like to put his name forward. Thank you for proposing me. Unfortunately, with my work, I feel that I have too much of my plate to be responsible for this, but I'm happy to give my support as it goes through. So, I will keep an eye on it, but I don't feel that I'm in such a place with enough time on my plate to be able to deal with this, such a large application of this one, but thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I suggest that you represent, as in this matter, with Councillor DELETS-JONES, if you're happy to accept my proposal, Councillor MACKANPARI. Members are happy with that. Councillor ELLman would you like to offer? Yes, I would like to second what that was, just said, Councillor Arwell, and also support Councillor APPSA as well. Okay, so, Councillor JONES, are you okay with that dream team approach? Yes, that's fine. Thank you. Okay, I'll give that a thank you. So, we're happy with that. Officers, I feel that. So, we have a show of hands that were happy with that approach, please. Okay, that's okay, that's supported. Okay, that's it. Jack O'Vell, thank you very much for your time. Thank you, officers, and thank you, Members. Jack O'Vell, the meeting is closed.