Transcript

Chair, the meeting is now live. Thank you. Good morning. Good morning. I'm sorry. I don't wish I'd have done that. Yes. Can I pose? Welcome to the democratic services committee meeting this Monday morning. Any apologies? Andrew. Yep. Apologies. Chair from Councillors Peter Lewis and Sarah Williams. Thank you. Thank you. Therefore, minutes of the previous meeting, are we content with those, and therefore can sign them. I can see one nodding. Anybody want to show the approval? I can't see many of you on screen. Just indicate. Yeah. Okay. Fine. Thank you. All right. Declarations of interest. Any interest to declare? I don't think there are in particular, but it's noted. And therefore, the main item today is the member's champion. We have invited three colleagues to join with us today, who are in current champions roles, Councillor Joy, Councillor Ange, and Councillor Mathieu, to inform the discussion as much as anything else. Councillor Ange, I know his withers. I'm not sure, are the other two withers yet, Carole? No, they're not, Chair. Okay. Well, the purpose of this basically is to review as a paper says, and to make suggestions and recommendations, which officer wants to lead as Steve, do you want to lead us through this paper? Yes, thank you, Chair. So, Chair, the reports, that's about the position of member champion roles on the Council. Memory, this goes back about 10 years, and past leaders have made appointments to this role. The roles are set out there in paragraph 2.1 of the report. Not many of these are currently active, but all the roles are being undertaken in one form or another by cabinet members. They may not have championed in their role descriptions, but they are, sorry, that is with the exception of the armed forces champion, but they are all been undertaken. Perhaps the only exception to that is the role of the anti-poverty champion, which Councillor Joy Jones is very active on and you will often hear or speak at Council in that capacity. Now, I know the deputy leader and cabinet member for Ferp House has said that he is content to meet with Joy on a regular basis so she can provide feedback on the activities she's undertaken. So the question for the Democratic Services Committee this morning really is, do you feel that these roles are required? Is there a risk of duplication with what's been undertaken by the cabinet, or is it another independent voice representing underrepresented groups within the county? If you do feel there is a role for member champions, should the appointments be undertaken by the leader as they have been in the past, or should it be by full Council? What are the governance arrangements to be? You can see there on page 21 of the report pack, there's a suggested template for member champions to report back. Just by way of comparison, Carl went out to your colleagues across Wales asking what the decision was, and you can see there is a wide range, some authorities have a lot of champions, some have none, some are appointed by Council, some, or most actually are appointed by the leader. So the position as we see it leader, are sure to be grateful for the committee's thoughts. Great. Thank you. Okay. Well, and welcome Joy to the meeting. Perhaps what we should do for inferences is to enable our guests to summarize basically what they see as their role, responsibilities, and how it adds value in particular, that's the most important to the work otherwise, and perhaps we then can go to further discussion. Joy, would you like to commence? Yes, certainly, thank you. My role, I've held it for quite a considerable amount of years, it's well known in the community. I represent the anti-poverty role by attending many local meetings and meetings at one point, meetings all over Paris, but due to when we came into lockdown, things obviously changed as are travelling across sort of across Paris itself, but still engage with many different groups across Paris. And my role has been one of sharing and taking forward people's views, taking forward my residents, the residents' views and people in the community of how it's affecting, have worked very closely with people throughout the community, different groups. I'm on quite a lot of different meetings and different boards because of my role and my knowledge of the anti-poverty stuff and things that we've got engaged in. I've been involved in many, many events, I've been able to get involved with lots of different organisations that provide home person and things that I've been able to share out in the community and with people that we wouldn't even normally engage with because very often it's hard-working people that are actually in poverty and deprivation. I've been, people share their experiences with me and I've used this role as to the best I possibly can, it used to share it with the cabinet, but since we've been under a new cabinet and in just the last years of the last cabinet that broke down because again, I think that was all to do with what we had with the issues of the crisis and the lockdown. But that didn't stop me in what I was doing and how I was working behind the scenes. I had to get many messages daily from residents and people that have seen what my role is. I don't, the role doesn't cost the council. I don't come to the council for these supplies, it's where I work hard and get it through organisations, the community businesses. I work quite closely with the RTC who give me massive campus and socks and blankets and baby bags, all sorts that we can just give out to the community and they're just provided and it's showing that kindness and showing that there are people that care that there are people that will listen. Very often my role can be, I may be called a councillor with a fee, but you'd be very surprised how often my role is actually councillor with an S and I'm out there listening to people that have got needs and just need somebody to turn to and talk to because they see this role as somebody that will stand up and speak on their behalf. I don't know what else you'd like to know, but I'm very welcome to ask me questions. As I said, I'm on quite a lot of different groups. I've do stuff with PABO and health and all sorts of different things and it's all been around this role. What I do, I attend the new town together stuff and we've put on a lot of kindness events and things like that and make sure that things are given freely to the community and it's not to those just in poverty. It's given out to all in the community so there's no discrimination or anybody is being targeted or made to feel that they are in any single box. It's open to everybody because that I feel very strongly about that it's inclusive and we include people and by showing kindness and sharing and helping it people pass it on and that again is important. Thank you. Thank you, Joy. Anj, do you want to summarize quickly in terms of the disability to you to all, isn't it? Well, I've been in role which would be seven years now as well, for quite some time. I was a little uncertain at the start of the new leader. We didn't have the conversation and I wasn't sure to be fair to start with whether it was my place to still be disability champion because I am the disability champion which is a role that I've absolutely loved. I helped to set up various groups in power and have gone along to lots of group meetings all over power and accessibility Wales meetings as well. I became part of the community health council because of my role and now I'm on advice for the same reason. Well, apart from the fact I really like it as well. Again, Joy, it's been fair for people that sometimes feel they have no voice. I've been on lots of forums with lots of different type of disability. Power has been very good to me in the fact that I was allowed to join the ALN to find out about accessibility and learning in schools and to help put together some of the some of the things going forward that the AL additional learning needs have done for power and I actually have to say I really enjoy it. The groups have been very good even though I wasn't sure whether I was still disability champion. I don't think there was any bias or anything of any sort in that way. I think it was just at the start of the new leading groups. There was such a lot of different stuff to set up. I think it was just an oversight that we weren't told whether we were still going to be it or if somebody else was going to take on that role. It wasn't out of any malice or anything like that. I think it was just they were so busy to be fair and like you say now you're coming around to re-looking at them two years later and I really hope that I will be able to keep this position. Yeah, dealing with lots of people that have problems, lots of phone calls, lots of visits to individuals that need a visit. I was telling Elwin earlier, I'm helping a lady at the moment that the health boards have given a electric wheelchair to that doesn't work in the rain which is always really good in power, isn't it? That wasn't their best idea but it's things like that people. Somebody they can come to not necessarily give advice but be there to even if it's hold their hand and say yeah we can do this, we'll get through it and shall we just ring so-and-so and see what they've got to say, is there anybody else that's had this problem in Wales or in Paris and look into it in that way. So hopefully that summarises the roll up. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Land. Right members, you've heard from two champions, do you have any particular questions you want to ask them, specifically before possibly wider open the conversation, out wider? Consularly. Dear Secretary Rive, so Councillor Andrew and Councillor Joy both spoke about the way that you've offered support to individual members of, you know, members within sorry residents within the county. I wasn't aware of all the all the member champion roles, you know, I've anybody been in the council for two years but I wasn't aware of all the member champion roles. I'm just wondering is, what I'm wondering is, what is the mechanism by which the public can get in contact with you? How would they know that you remember champion and what's that sort of mechanism by which they communicate with you? Can I come back on that? I can eat. I think because my role has been existing for quite a long time, just shut the dog, because the dogs decided to fart, sorry. Because my role has been in place quite a long time, I've been in the newspapers a lot as an anti-poverty champion. And it's only really under this last sort of council that things have slowed down a little bit with the publicity of it. But prior to that there was a lot of publicity, it was out there a lot, it is on, it is, it was always on the website that we were. And my role was actually was, I did have a conversation with the leader and the leader did give me back my role at the beginning of the new term. So that was something that I did do and I've been working quite closely on various little bits and pieces with Matthew, who has also got a role under the poverty as this portfolio, is portfolio holder now with it. But it's a different, it is a different sort of role. And so, yeah, the public do know, okay, there will be some out there that don't. And that perhaps is what the council needs to make it more clear. But the champion roles were spoken about and were used. And like I said, we used to report back to Cabinet. So it was there a minute and in the beginning, the champion roles were held and used a lot by the Cabinet and by other councils and other councils would invite you to the awards if there was something that they felt was relevant. So, so, how do people know? They just, they do, but there are, yes, there will be some people out there that probably don't, but isn't that the same as there's been Councillors, not everybody knows that you're a councillor until, you know, you're introduced. Okay, thank you. We've got Councillor Gareth and then Councillor Peter. Yeah, mine's really a follow-up point to the point that Councillor Glynn's just made, Chair. I've got a quick look on the House website this morning, just search for members, member champion, can't find anything. So, you know, publicity, if we're going to have this role, we need to make sure people in the community know that they exist and their contact details. Okay, thank you. Councillor Piet. Yeah, thank you, Chair. Yeah, I'm, I'm probably familiar to Councillor Gareth and Councillor Glynn there. I'll sort of echo those comments and I think as well, I've, apart from, I guess, Councillor Joy, who I know is very active and passionate about her role as his councillor Ange from what we heard this morning. I've sort of not really had any interaction with any of the member champions over the last two years since I've been elected, but that may echo the sentiments that Councillor Joy was saying. I think just what I've got in my mind, I'm not sure if it's to know or later in the debate, Chair, but it's how do the champions, if you like, represent me as a councillor, how do they work with me in my area and across Paris? Because in a way, all of the roles that are there is champions. I sort of see that they are roles for every one of us as a councillor. So I think it's not necessary just for one individual, and we should all be standing up and making these points. So I just want to understand how we interact with that champion, if that makes sense. I think perhaps we'll come back to that because that's an important point to be there. Yeah, thank you. Councillor Clare. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, I think for my, for me, being a fairly new councillor here, but I've been working very many local authorities, so I'm very aware of member champions, what positives they can bring. I think it's more about, so go back to what Councillor Peter Lewington said about all councillors should be doing that community role. I completely agree. I think the member's champions is more about influencing policy and strategy across the council and champion that particular interest group and making sure that the effectiveness is almost like a lobbying role to a certain extent in terms of, so when the council are looking at different plans and projects and like the LDP, for example, from a planning point of view or the economic development strategies, it's about champion the needs of those underrepresented groups in those areas. And I think there definitely is a value in those member champions role from that point of view, but I'm also conscious that to avoid duplication, we always need to be aware of how the current cabinet is structured around themes and to see how the members champions can fit with that, because obviously, some of the cabinet roles sort of cover more than one of the, the list from the previous council terms from in paragraph 2.1. So we probably need to look at that and to sort of see how we can sort of make sure that there are no gaps and that all groups are represented equally. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, thanks, Chair. And thanks, Clare. That's a very point that I was going to raise, really, because like, because reading the reports and the responses of our champions, it's clear to me that for the last two years, they've been left high and dry. This seems to be very little consultation, very little guidance from the cabinets of whether they actually want these people in place or whether they intend it to continue or take it over as cabinet individuals as seems to be being mentioned in some of the areas of this report. So I just feel that this is something that cabinet has to make, you know, a proper decision on going forward and say, you know, we want this to continue or we don't want it to continue, because I don't suppose, Councillor and Councillor Joy have any kind of job description for this role that's been provided to them, so they don't have any guidance. What I would say about both Joy and Ange is, you know, they do challenge situations in council meetings on a regular basis when poverty and disability, it matters are raised. So the two members of the with us, they carry out this role properly. It's difficult for them, I'm sure, to cover it, to carry it out how it's wide and a lot of the work that we do, that we don't see, you know, has been done on a local basis, but we need to make it clear as a council, really, you know, how this, how they, what their roles are, how they can be contacted, and how they can challenge and also represent we as Councillors at full council meetings. Okay, thank you. Councillor Glynn. I'd just like to respond to Councillor Graham, if I may. I think it would be entirely unfair to say that it's come about in the last two years. Indeed, I remember reading in the in the K times newspaper article from the last council with the last time that this was debated at democratic services committee. Indeed, I think you would still chair at that time, Councillor Elvin. And I think there was a similar confusion at the time about the role of member champions and what role they were meant to fulfil. And so to try and pin this on the last two years, I think is not entirely fair, Councillor Graham. Well, to just come back on that, it actually says that, you know, our, our, our two representatives here actually say that in their responses in the report. Okay, we did hear from Steve that Councillor Donnes has been willing to meet with Councillor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, that's equally true, isn't it? So, okay, well, today we need to try and think how we move forward for the next couple of years. Councillor Anishka to enjoy, then we will perhaps focus then specifically on some of these questions. Oh, well, for me, we don't have any offices, we don't have any, any funding. So, we do this out of a love for the job and for the people of power, it's really what I was going to say was that we go to things that everybody can't go to. You know, people have something, you know, like accessibility powers, the meeting I'm going to next Monday, they let me go whether I was in in role or not to be totally truthful, because I wasn't 100% certain. I did ask them if they were still prepared to have me at the meetings, and they said, yes, please, because you've been helpful in the past. But not all of us can go. You know, there's nearly 70 of us, we can't all go to that meeting every month, we can't all go to the All Wales meetings, we can't go to the All Ones in our individual towns, I know I've met with the Brecken group, I've met with the Wales Cool group, but we're all busy people on me, let's be totally truthful, we all haven't got time to go to everything. And I think we're there as a representative to say that everybody in council does care, everybody in council wants to hear your opinion, everybody in council wants to hear, but we just can't all be here. It's very similar say to the chair's role, whereas all 70 of us can't go to open every race that's on or every public building, I think that is as much part of the role is to let everybody know that every member of council is bothered, every member of council does care, and every member of council will look at this, but can't actually come to this particular thing every month or whatever. That was what I was going to say really, you know, it isn't to try and take anything from everybody else, it was put there to add to everybody else's. Okay. Again, thank you, I would totally agree with everything that Ang said there, that we go to represent other councillors, because as Ang said, not everybody can attend all, this is not everybody has an interest in these things, not everybody spends hours and hours and hours collecting things and going out and sharing it with others. And you know, it might be knowledge, it might be goods, it might be various different things, but people obviously do know our roles, because as I said, you know, groups of getting in touch with us and ask us to go to these meetings and things, we used to, it used to be on the website, our champion roles were there and contact details, and you know, and it's very sad that it's no longer there, because you know, that was part of it, it was, it was partly there, you know, and in many a meeting, when I speak out, I speak out and I say as the anti champ, as the anti poverty champion. So, you know, it, it, this is something that has gone on for a long time, not costing the council money, not taking masses of officer time, occasionally ask advice, because don't we ask advice as councillors anyway, to make sure we're doing something correctly, when the roles were first put in place, we were given, we were given actual officers to work with us, and Greg, who, who is well known to the council, actually came and part of Paris Council, because he was the officer that was brought in at the time to work with on the anti poverty side of it. I do answer to Matthew, and I've been a part of the two conferences that have now been held in Paris to, to work around, around Wales, basically, it's people, you know, it's different, different organisations and things from around Wales, so it's, it's learning, it's finding skills, it's learning, it's learning different ways that we as a council can work to help to, to prevent and combat the poverty and deprivation there is, and my ward is one of the highest wards in, in Wales, it's up on the top, in the top town of, of, of deprivation and poverty, so I'm working with him, my, the, the wards and the skills that there are, I'm very sorry, um, chair to take so long, I just needed to try and explain, I love this role, and it find it very important. We understand the passion. Yeah, thank you, Joy. And thank you both for attending and for helping to inform the conversation discussion today. The, in relation to the paper, we have in front of us, we have recommendation, first of all, to consider whether the member champion goals are required. I think that's a fundamental question. And of course, if so, we need to define perhaps what that means and whether we need other roles as some other authorities, not all, but there's a very wide ranging perception and approach by other authorities in relation to, to member champions. I must confess as myself, as one who was a, one member champion in the previous administration, what I'm trying to get my head around it all is what is the added value and what is the um, differential over and above what somebody would be doing anyway. And I think that's the crux, uh, where I'm coming from. And honestly, I have some difficulty in, um, in, in perhaps, um, getting clear thoughts on it. But anyway, comes on David. Yeah, thank you, Chair. I think I was the one that wanted this item to come to democratic services because to me, the whole way of appointing people to the member champion role is totally undemocratic. Um, but I noticed that, you know, his similar arrangements are with other authorities as well. But for a member champion to be appointed just by the leader, I don't think he's right. I don't think he's right that, you know, after, uh, I canceled term that the people automatically move forward to the following term. Um, I've got nothing else that people who are doing it. But I think, you know, these positions not open to members. It's just been, you know, uh, approached. And I don't think that is the right way forward. It's, it is totally undemocratic. I equally don't think that it is the role of a cabinet member to be a member champion. I think that is not right either because you did say you weren't sure what your role is. My view is that if you're a member champion, you work with the portfolio of what you always responsible for that area that you are covering so that you can challenge them. You can put views across. And therefore I am totally opposed to a cabinet member being a member champion because I don't think that is right. They need, you know, it is another means of those responsible for various areas are challenged on whether or not, um, cancel policy fits the bill for that area. So, you know, that's why I brought it because I just can believe the procedure that is followed to appoint people. Uh, I don't think it's right. I don't think it's fair. And I think, you know, people in the nude, uh, counsel should begin opportunities. Uh, you know, number, they need no, they existed this morning. And I just don't think it's right. So those were my, uh, thought anyway on it is member champions challenge cabinet members. And therefore, how can cabinet members be a member champion? It doesn't work. So that doesn't, you've got a specific issue that we need to bear in mind on with. Uh, Councillor Clare, you're mute. Thank you, Chair. Yeah. Um, just touching on a bit of what, um, Councillor David's just said really, um, I think I agree with him on some bits. I disagree with him on others. I think I certainly agree that there shouldn't be an automatic rollover from previous administrations. I think it's something that, um, needs to be looked at, you know, ideally with each, with each council term. Um, and obviously we're two years into the carrot one, but it doesn't look like, um, it was ever looked at at the start. So we probably do need to do that now. I also agree that I don't think you should be marking your own homework. So I don't think it's necessarily appropriate for a cabinet portfolio holder to also be a members champion. I do think, um, I do think it is for the leader to choose because I think ultimately a leader has to structure their administration in a way that reflects their priorities. But the members champion is obviously to, to represent the views of, um, minority groups, whichever they may be. Um, and I think so long as the application process is open to all members as to who would like to fill that role, I don't have a problem with that. I think that's where the democracy and any perceived democracy deficit that counts the day would things could be filled because it would be open to all members to apply for. Um, but ultimately, I think it would be for the leader to structure that. And I think it's making sure that we cover all the depth and breadth of potentially disadvantaged groups. Um, I wouldn't want a list of 30 member champions. I think that dilutes the pro, the, the, the, the, dilutes the concept. I think it's about targeting those key groups in society who, whose voices need to be heard, um, across the, um, policy, you know, whatever policy is strategy that the council is preparing. Um, so I don't see it as being primarily about going to local community events. I do see it more about, um, representing those groups across powers as a whole in the, in the decisions and the policies that the council are preparing to make sure that those groups are represented well and not disadvantaged. Thank you. Thank you. Cause I'll try to see your hand is, uh, have you got something specific you want to? Yeah, I just wanted to point out once again that it was, it wasn't an automatic rollover. It was, I did have to go through the leader. The leader did point me and also, uh, should, I'm absolutely agree with Claire. It's not about going to events. That's not what I do. Okay. So it is representing and, and being parts of groups, the events, the things I've put on, not going to represent them. I just wanted to make it clear. Thanks. Um, can we come back, I think to a councilor Peter Lewington raised important issue previously. Can we, Peter, do you want to do a visit that? Uh, yeah. Yes, please chair. Yeah. It was, um, I think a couple including, yeah, yourself and the councilors have alluded to it. It's, um, I, I, I'm struggling again in my mind with my concept of this being a role for everyone to actually do this, but then I've now got a members champion and how do I interact with that members champion and what is their role, uh, supposed to be? Um, and, and I think that's just where a lot of my confusion is around whether the role is actually needed when I think it's everyone's role in the first place. If that makes sense. I think, yes, we, we're in a very similar mindset. I think, uh, councilor Danny. Uh, thank you chair. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm sort of heading down the lines of, uh, with, with yourself and councilor Peter Lewington. Um, as I've only been a councilor for two years. Um, I, I had heard of the term, um, well, I don't know. Okay. I remember what they called. I'm sorry. Uh, community. No, no, they're not community. Anyway. Yeah. I had heard of the term, but I never really knew what they were. Um, but I, I find that I already do this sort of role really. Someone comes to me with an issue. Uh, we've got people specialists within the council that we take this issue to, and we follow up whether this issue's dealt with or check how it's been dealt with, and we move forward like that. And if it's not dealt with how the resident or we like, we, we carry on and follow it up some more, uh, until it's resolved. Um, but I can see a benefit to it from the other side that us as members could approach a, a, a counselor that's in that field and say, look, we've got this issue. Can you deal with it? And we'll check on it from there. But I, I feel that we already do that with, with existing officers anyway. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Because of that. Uh, thanks, Chair. Yeah. Sorry to, to, to maybe repeat myself, but I think we need to draw a distinction here between casework of individual needs of our vulnerable groups in our communities to somebody champion the views of us of an underrepresented group as a whole. I think that's the distinction. Um, going back to what Councillor Anne said, we can't all be everywhere. We've only got a number of hours in the, in the, in the working day in the working week. Um, so it's about having somebody who across the board is an advocate and representing the views of that group, whether that group be a disability group, or whether it be, um, young persons, children, young adults, or whether it be, um, uh, antipoverty or whether it be armed forces. What the role is to advocate for those, that section of society. So as an individual counselor, yes, you would be representing all of those people on an ad hoc individual basis as and when those needs present to themselves choose. But this is very, what we're talking about as a member champion is different. It's not, it's not a reacting to, I've got somebody in my community with a special, um, need that we need to sort out. That is your role as a board counselor. What, what we're talking about is having somebody nominated to advocate for that section of society as a whole, across the council and influence policies and strategy at the very level, at the very top level. So that does mean working and holding the cabinet and the executive to account to make sure that those needs and views of those underrepresented groups are, are reflected. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. That was my piece. Yeah, thanks, Chair. I totally understand what counselor Claire's just said there and that just helps explain it a bit more, but, but also confuse it a bit more for us because, uh, or for me, sorry, um, because I guess if it's there to, to influence policy, where is my input to that members champion to get my point across about how I think that policy should be, if that makes sense. So, so, so again, I'm back to the bit is how does the member champion represent the 67 other Councillors and get all of their views, as well as the views of the particular group that their champion champion in, sorry, into that debate about the policy. Well, so also bearing in mind that these champions have no resources, no backup or in any way or form, uh, constantly. Oh, gosh, sorry, I've just, I've just taken my hand down, Chair. But I suppose the point I was going to make, uh, reading between what, what, what Councillor Claire is saying, I suppose you're essentially arguing that there, it sits somewhere between our role doing case work and between scrutiny. Is that sort of the sort of gray area that you think it's, it sits in Councillor Claire? Yeah, I just think it's, it's, if you're going to have them, that is what they do. And that's what they do in other authorities is they, they champion an advocate for that section of, of society that they represent. So, so they would influence, um, they would make sure that they sit on the relevant, uh, scrutiny committees to get those points across, get that view across. Um, they would, um, be lobbying, you know, whichever portfolio holder closely aligned with whatever, um, whoever they represent, sometimes that's more than more than one portfolio if it crosses over different issues. Um, but my point is that their focus is the group they represent. It's not other Councillors and it's not, um, it's, it's, it's, it's being the voice, the champion for that, whichever group they represent. So if we consider today's paper, possibly the fundamental first question is whether the roles are actually needed. Do we need member-chomping roles in poets? Yeah, there's no, we can't do anything but the members-chomping title, unfortunately, comes repeat, but, um, it's beyond our control. You're, Clive? Chair, I've just been checking in, in the background. Um, once you consider that members have had sufficient time to debate this matter, um, Steve and Carla have arranged a series of, um, uh, electronic votes. If you want to go down that route, Councillor. Thank you. Good. Okay. Well, fundamental question is, come sort of Gareth. Yeah, I'll, I'll start the debate, Chair. Um, I, I think we should continue with member champions. But I also think we should have a good thought about what roles we want them to take on and, and now they're applied. And I would actually say there ought to be a link to either a cabinet member or a key officer around each of the areas. You know, for example, if I was in charge of disability like Angie, Angie's, I, I would expect, and so we're linked into an officer in children's adults and in education. So yeah, I think, I think it's like the role I did with the, uh, legislature service. I was a lead member for legislature services review, but, and that was like a scrutiny. But we were halfway through the review before I really, really liked what I was going to do. So there needs to be quite a good description of what the role is. But I would say we, we, we should have them, but keep them to a small number. No, I think that the one person before I became a member, one person, I knew that a specific role in the community was comes to joy. I knew if there was a anti-poverty issue, then joy was the person to go to. Question is you use a term a small number. Please define small number. Are we talking about keeping the status quo? I talked about have a dozen. I would say around six. And I think some of the areas could be linked. Sorry, it's not barking. And then the question comes then is who decides those roles? Uh, and, you know, how do we keep it as, as bureaucratic free as possible? Because you don't want to, you know, what the interaction between you, if you have time for link officers and things, how does that relate then to why they're skilled to me at all? Those are the questions, I think. Consulately. You know, and it was on that very point that I wanted to pick up on, actually, if you're talking about allocating officer time, particularly senior officer time, we're actually talking about allocating a fair, a fair, a fair bit of money, actually, depending on how much, how much, how much officer time the member champions expect to take up. And I suppose then the question comes, do we think the value added by having them champions is worth that sort of wider cost to the authority and wider cost in terms of the time that it's going to take up of officers? Thank you. So, Gareth, do you want to come back? Yeah, I'm not talking out in an allocation of hours per week. I'm talking, perhaps, half an hour, a month without that chat with a senior officer, some that we do, you do a a cup of coffee. It's what I would expect. My role is as a cancer, anyway, if I got an issue, I'd go to the relevant office. It's almost having somebody to call in it, so this dog is driving me nuts this morning. Having somebody to coordinate the school to members, you know, if I wanted to discuss an action with on anti-profit, I'd go to joy to have that advice. You know, there's several things that we could do, I think. Okay. Councilor Clare? Thanks, Chair. I don't think it necessarily needs to be at a financial cost at the council. This is all about structure and governance at the end of the day. And I think, ultimately, if you've got an individual member who's really passionate about a particular area of underrepresentation, maybe because they themselves are part of that or they have family members or friends who are, I think that is where the champion comes from. This is people who have that lived experience and invested interest in making sure that that representation is there across the council and the decisions and the policies that the councils are making. So, for example, when you're looking at budget setting, for example, you would be expecting the but the champion for children and young people, young people to be making sure that none of the children's play areas, for example, were going to be closed and they were, they're going to be protected. Similarly, you then have people from the disability groups who may be making sure they're looking at, making sure that when new equipment goes in, it's appropriate so that it meets the needs of those children with disabilities, for example. So, it's almost cost neutral in that, you would just be being that advocate and you'd be using your member role to influence and hold account to hold a fee to the fire, the portfolio holders who cover your area and for a lot of people, there will be more than one person. It crosses boundaries. Okay, because of David. Sorry, Chair. Just very quickly on resources. I mean, they could very well be traveling expenses involved. So, we can't say that there is no cost to the authority on it. If member champions are going around various areas, that's the only thing I'd like to point out to them there. Officers time, it does cost money also and we all know how that is. It is a factor in that sense. Councillor Gareth? Yeah, we just, we also need to take about the effectiveness of these roles and what the efficiency that can be gained or the savings that can be gained from the involvement in that process. You know, once you've got a champion with the understanding and knowledge, they can put, they can add it. Part of my language, a hell of a lot of improvement efficiency. There's another thought process coming in there. It's another link with groups that they're dealing with. You know, for example, I don't know what you call, I'm a champ, I'm the local, I'm the council, council, sorry, the council rep on the local access forum and you're often hearing me speaking meetings around the need to enhance the bridle ways of passing, et cetera. It's how you actually, but encompassing. But that's an important point. You're not a champion yet. You do that at all. Yeah, but I do you need to sort of question this step. I'm officially pointing into that role. So, I would say, okay, not a champion by name, but I think I am championing that area for the authority. But, you know, okay, I'm a numbers person and but I see these champions being able to influence actions and things like that and actually make more efficiencies. There may be a small cost to it, but there may be a hell of a lot more savings gained from actually having that role if it's done properly. Okay. Any other points? If not, I think we need to answer the fundamental question, basically, whether member champion of rules are required. Yes or no, I think he comes down to that. I think perhaps the only way to resolve that is to have a vote on it. And then everything else will come up to that one way or the other. Harold, can you please put the vote in the chat, please? Well, there we are. There's a voting slip in the chat at this moment in time. Thank you. Sorry. I know it is in the papers. Can we clarify what question one is? Because it just says four against and abstaining them on. Oh, yes. Sorry. It's at the top. Mine won't open. Was that Danny? Sorry. Yeah, it mine won't open. It tells me I'm not connected to the internet, but I must be because I'm on there. It may be your VPN, Councillor Danny, if you check your VPN. Caro, can you indicate all members apart from Councillor Danny, if they've been able to vote? I've had seven votes live. Sorry. So there's eight members in the meeting. I've had seven. I've got eight now. Okay. It was VPN. Was it good? So we've had four against, sorry, four, four, the member champions will continue in and four against and no abstentions. Well, I am not convinced of the laws, to be honest, of the added value. I can see in an ideal world of the what Councillor Clare is emphasizing, but I can't see and practice it working. And that is why I think at this time, I can't support. So I will be voting against. So then that makes that with the cheers. Casting vote. Casting vote, it's four, four members, champions continuing, five against member champions continuing and no abstentions. Okay. Yeah, that clarifies that situation. And therefore, we go on to the next item. Constitution, again, quite. Chair, where will be a second when I get my papers together? Yes, well done. Chair, you'll see the report on this matter is in the supplementary paper. It is an issue which we keep addressing in terms of updating the Constitution as and when things change nationally. You'll see from page one of the report that there is a new requirement of subscribing to the DBS service, a new requirement of licensed drivers in compliance with guidance issued by Welsh Government and the Department of Transport. Chair, you'll see that in this regard, there's an amendment which is proposed with regard to section 13 of the Constitution. And you'll see from the paper that the bits in red have been added to deal with this new requirement, to deal with this requirement. Chair, I've taken the view that this, as this is a requirement of change of law, that this is a minor, minor amendment, doesn't need a trouble counsel and therefore making this made the amendment myself. Thank you. Any accordance with the Constitution, I've reported that amendment to DSC. Thank you very much. Any questions in particular? No? Councillor CLEAR is going to hand up, Chair. Councillor CLEAR and then Councillor GARL. Thanks, Chair. A question for Clive, really. I understand the requirement to subscribe to the new DBS update service. So, am I writing saying or supplying new DBS to the authority of six months? So, people would have to do one or the other, either have the automated update or if they didn't subscribe to the automated, then every six months they'd have to demonstrate an up-to-date DBS. Is that, am I understanding that right? Chair, that's right. But this is requirement for Hackney College drivers, these are taxi drivers. This is a new requirement for them. Okay. Thank you. I just saw every six months might be a bit onerous for paperwork, but if it's an either or situation, then I don't see why they can't do that. That's right. Councillor GARL is going to hand it as well, Chair. Yes, Councillor GARL. Yeah, mine's a similar point to Councillor CLEAR. Is that going to apply then to all officers and members who have got DBSs as well? No, it doesn't apply to everybody. This is a specific requirement for taxi license drivers. Do we know why it's just for them, then, why it's not being applied? I think that in terms of safeguarding for members of the public who use taxis in essence, this is a new requirement in relation to them, because I think there have been a number of incidents involving this particular group, Councillor GARL. Therefore, we will continue for all everybody else on a three-year basis, yeah? Thank you very much. Any other issues prior to the relation constitution? No, thank you, Chair. I just report that to DSC as required. Thank you very much. Okay. Item six, review of the 2020 induction program and information. Chair, I think, and I was trying to get to hold a card call before the meeting, so if I suspect that this is the requirement to set up a working group to look at this and to consider the impact and the relevance which the new induction program had, so that we can do that. Councillor, is that on my right? Yes, Chair Clive, yeah. Members have been imposed now for a period of time, and it's rather than leaving it until closer to 2027 when we're preparing for that new council. It's actually trying to capture members have been in position now for two years. Are there things that they've gathered over the two years that might have been better to have been told of when they first started? So it's about reviewing the information that they've given and also the whole induction program. So it's still relative fresh in people's minds. So, Chair, I suspect that the request is for members to agree a small working group, perhaps three or four, and report back to DSC once the working group has completed its work. That's correct. Thank you. It makes sense to me. Under I see we have some new members in the committee today, which obviously have a valuable contribution to make to this. Do we have any volunteers or suggestions of names to participate? Please, Councillor Glenn. Yeah, I'm happy to put myself forward, particularly because in my professional law, I work with council groups across England. So I've got a bit of a broader understanding of how other councils do this as well. Good, well done. Anybody else? Claire, do you want to participate? Yeah, I'm happy to be involved in that. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Chair. I you're going to participate in this and on yourself. Otherwise, we just got the three that we just violated more than happy. Thank you, Chair. Just making sure that we knew who the membership was. Thank you. Have as much members. Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much. Okay, forward work program, anything in particular anybody wants to fuck up there? No? If not, can I therefore thank everybody for their attendance today, and for the meeting and... Chair, could I just interrupt or Steve? Sorry, Steve, over to you. Yes, thanks, Councillor. Sorry, Chair. I should have said when you took the vote on the member champion rule, that will be a recommendation now to council. Yes, it will be a recommendation. Yes, and of course then people can, the wider council has ever come to whatever conclusion. They can listen a lot in a few lessons. Okay, Chair, on that point, therefore, we shall leave it to full council and see you at the next meeting. Chair, thank you very much. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, members, Chair. Thank you, Chair. So, we're going to recommend this continue. [BLANK_AUDIO]