Transcript

Transcript

Morning, everybody. Welcome. Good morning. Welcome to Power System's Health and Social Care Scrutiny Committee. We are quite short on numbers today. And for various reasons, I think this is going to be a fairly quick meeting. But if we just go through the formalities, have we got any apologies, please, Kath? Yes, Chair, we've got apologies from Councillors Carol Robinson and Councillor Ange. We have also got apologies from Councillor Sandra Davis, Portfolio Holder, and Officers Nina Davis and Sharon Powell. Thank you. And then the first item on the agenda is to elect a Vice Chair. I understand we've had one nomination. Is that right, Kath? We've got a nomination for Councillor Gareth E Jones, which has been proposed by Councillor Carol. I've got a written email from Councillor Carol. If there are any other nominees, if they'd like to put themselves forward and be proposed in the second? Put your name, say in the chat or put your hand up and just give that a couple of seconds. Okay, I can't see anyone's type to put their hand up. And in which case, I would be happy to propose Councillor Gareth as Vice if anyone would like to second it, please. Councillor Chris, he's happy to second. Thank you. And do we vote on it, Kath? I would like to then to just concur and vote. Do a show of hands? Either way. Oh, sorry. I've just realised that my video has gone off. Yes. Okay, is that your hand up, Liz? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Well, that looks unanimous. Congratulations, Councillor Gareth, on continuing to be Vice Chair. I really appreciate your support, and in particular, your attention to detail and knowledge of financial affairs. Thank you. Long may it continue. Can I thank the other members for the confidence in me? Okay, right. So declarations of interest. Anyone got anything to disclose? Anyone got any interests in day services particular? Nope. Okay. And then disclosure of party whips? None. Okay, right. My agenda is just frozen, because that's difficult. Let me just open it back up again. Okay, so what are we doing with minutes, please, Kath? The minutes of the meeting from the 11th of April are still with officers just for proof of entry fee. We'll park that for the next one. Yes, please, Chair. Okay, so the next item is the Corporate Safeguarding Board report, which is something that we we look at quarterly, and there has been a change to how we usually get the papers for this, we usually get the papers that sit behind it. So I think we're just going to be limited today to getting an update from Councillor Richard Churchill, I'd like to welcome to committee and also Sharon Fruin. I have asked for us to deal with this slightly differently going forward in that we would like to have the papers and the updates in advance of cabinet. So we're not looking at things always retrospectively in case we want to make any comments that also then get included to cabinet. I think that's how it should work in terms of our feed into this. Sharon and Richard, are you happy with us to make that as a recommendation on how we deal with this going forward? Yes, I am, Chair. Yeah, I think so. I think it obviously depends upon the timing of your meetings in relation to cabinet and safeguarding and I don't know how that will work. And if things are prepared in time. Yes, but as a principle, it seems like a sound one to me. Okay, thank you for that. Okay, and on that note, then I'll hand over to you just if you can give us an update on how your last on how the report went when it was fed to cabinet and whether there's any key headlines, changes in trends or issues that are on your radar that you're starting to either get concerned about or that you think actually that's starting we're starting to see a real improvement in that area, please. Okay, I'll leave it to Sharon or others to comment on any changes since this meeting was held. And since this report was dated, I mean, you've got the brief report in front of you. And I think a lot of it you were already well aware of, particularly in relation to the JICPA review, which happened now. That last year, and we received the report on that in February, and made quite a lot of favourable comments about our performance in relation to safeguarding. But it did make some recommendations. And as you can see, the director said that those recommendations are being implemented. I would like to highlight the workings of the Bothwells Safety Group because they really do do some fantastic work around the time of the Royal Welsh Show in particular. And of course, we've got that coming up soon. And what they do to help make people safe during that show, I think, contributes importantly to the work of other public bodies and I know something that we were keen to see whether we could demonstrate is that the work that the Safety Group are doing is not only making people safer, but saving on the work of the police, health and ambulance services. And I just think we want to demonstrate that so that we can show that we're not just making people safer, but we're saving costs to other public services too. Just going on, there was a change in the leads or in relating to channel, I think Sharon may be able to explain more about that. And we have looked closely at elective home education and fixed-term exclusions and we are concerned about the number of young people who are being educated at home and making sure that they are being educated safely. I think those are the only points that I can raise. But obviously, if there are any questions, if we're not able to answer them now, then I think they could come back to your next meeting. Thank you, Richard. Sharon? Thank you, Chair. I suppose one key thing to note for me was the regulatory tracker, as usual, was scrutinised and to know that items are either green, so either on track or they've been completed. I can confirm the chair of the channel panel will now be Karen Arthur in adult services as our lead adult safeguarding officer. And I think the only other point to note is, as has been a trend over the last year or so, is that increased demand at the front door and that we're monitoring that and taking the right steps to make sure that we are coping with that demand. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, members, I know we don't have some of the papers that sit behind us with what went with it, but has anyone got any questions from what we know previously or anything you'd like a bit more information about? And as obviously Richard has said, it might be something that they can't answer today that can go into the next time that we deal with this. Councillor Chris? Yes. Well, thank you, Richard, for the report and Sharon, I know this is probably more of a challenge on it, but not necessarily for you to answer the questions today, but you could take them away. There's a couple of areas on there that I just wanted to understand a little bit more. On the second page, under 2.8, it's got about the elective home education and fixed term exclusions title. The statement that says it's noted that ALN exclusion numbers were higher than previously reported and being investigated. I just really wanted to understand some of the reasons and what other actions have then happened regarding that. Then in relation to mandatory training, I know that we were down on that at one stage, and I know there had been some improvements coming through, but what is our compliance rate now currently? And what other actions have been taken to ensure that that improves? And then under 2.10, adult social care safeguarding performance, it says that this modern slavery guidance was highlighted again to practitioners. What was the reason for re-highlighting it? Hadn't they taken it on board, or had people missed it, or had we had new employees come in? And I'll stop there, Sharon. Thank you. Richard and Sharon, are you able to answer any of those, or if not, have you made a note of them, of something that you can come back to on? Sharon? Yeah, I've taken a note of the home education and the compliance rate, certainly, and understanding the reasons and what we're doing about the home education. The modern day slavery, I think that was our check, but I think that was a slight review of the policy and the guidance, as it should have been. It's on our schedule to review, and therefore it was then reissued. I think there had been some slight amendments, and it would normally be issued to new staff anyway. And the compliance rate for safeguarding, I can get you the most accurate figure, because that's updated daily, and I can send that on. Okay, thank you. Just a quick follow-up on what Chris asked. I know that the numbers of home-elected children have increased over the last year or so. Are you able to answer whether they are continuing to increase, or have the numbers stabilised? I'm sorry, I don't know that, sorry. I think, Chairs, that they have stabilised, and I think that they went up particularly during and after Covid, stabilised, and I think they may have dropped slightly since, but I don't think they've got back to their previous levels, but I'm sure we can get you the figures on that. Yeah, it would just be interesting to see if there's any continuing trend there, or whether that reaction has now ended. So, because that will probably, I guess that informs how you handle that with what you need to do in terms of the new requirements. Thank you. Councillor Gareth. Yeah, thank you, thank you, Chair. I'm going back to Chris's first point about the ALN exclusion rates. I'm a little bit concerned about that, because as it reads, it says that all the exclusions were for ALN additional learning needs, and I thought the school should have strategies in place to actually cope with ALN. I'm wondering should that be behavioural related issues, and perhaps we could have some further breakdown around what ALN needs the children have that have been excluded. I think I'd also like to know what happens during that period of exclusion in terms of support for them and their families. Sharon. Thank you, Chair. Just a note, I'm happy to take those queries and make sure those answers are returned to you. And again, is that something that is slightly different to before? Is that a trend that we're seeing? That's the other question. Or is it just a one off? I think once again, I think there is a trend of additional demands on additional support for additional learning needs, which has happened since COVID. I can't tell you whether that trend has levelled off, but there has been a growth in demand in that area. And I think we're aware of that. I guess the question is, is there a trend on exclusions in that area? I couldn't tell you that, Amanda. Sorry. Because if so, that needs to be unpicked. Yeah. And the other aspect of that, I think, Councillor Amanda, is whether there's been a change in the central support that's provided to the schools. And has that impacted on the schools having to exclude because they're not getting the central support that they thought they should be having or the advice? And also whether there's any crossover with children who are looked after in that cohort? Have you got a note of all of that? Is that okay? Thank you. Any other questions from members? Okay. This is trying to ask Amanda. It is not a question, Amanda. Sorry, Liz. I didn't see your hand. Sorry. It's an observation, Amanda. It sounds like that might be an area for a deep dive, given the cross-cutting issues that have just been raised by yourself, Gareth and Chris. I think so. Sharon, if we're able to get that information in advance of the next quarter, that would be great. If we could get it over the summer, then we can have a look as a committee whether or not that's something we could maybe do a deep dive in as a mini working group. Absolutely, Che. Thank you. Well, good point, Liz. Thanks. Okay. Right. So there's no more questions on that. The next item is the engagement activity on the day opportunities review. And just for the public to be aware, there has been some delay with some valid reasons on getting the papers to us for this. So as a committee, we haven't had a chance to really review this paper. It is something that we want to be able to look into quite deeply, not just in terms of where this goes, but also how this analysis of the engagement activities has shaped and the documents that sit behind this. I've therefore taken a bit of an executive decision today that we're not going to be talked through this paper in detail. I want that to happen under proper scrutiny formalities. So, what I have asked for from Sharon and from Pam who is... Is Pam still here? I can't see Pam on my screen. Sorry, Pam. I'm trying to see everybody on the screen and I can't see everyone. And so what I've asked for from Sharon and Pam and Katso Shan is if you can just give us an overview of where you are at with this ongoing work and your timeframes going forward. What you're hoping to do next, but I would like the opportunity for you to come and present your analysis of this engagement activity in July. But we may also want some of the evidence that sits behind it as well if that's okay. So from members point of view, by all means, please ask any questions you want on clarity of where we are at and where we are going forward, but we're not going to be scrutinizing this analysis. And what we may do is look at it and submit some written questions to you in advance of the next scrutiny so that you know what we're wanting and what we're interested in if that's okay. But on that note, I will hand over to you. I think there will be a couple of questions on clarifying where you are at and how this has come to be shaped as it has rather than the actual contents of it, if you know what I mean. But on that note, I will hand over to you. Pam, are you leading on it? Sharon, are you introducing it? Or Councillor Shan, are you introducing it? I believe Sharon is planning on introducing it. I think Councillor Shan's just unmuted. I won't steal your spend, rather. I'll let the officers go into the details. Thank you, Councillor Amanda. I just wanted quickly to note that I played a part in the delay and for that I apologise. I was on holiday for two weeks and I also didn't realise that I had to see the report before it could come to you. I thought I was just being cited on it at much the same time and I'm really sorry I caused an inadvertent further hold up. That's okay, I appreciate your comments on that. Thank you, Sharon. I welcome the delay as well. I am really, really keen. For me, this is really important because the engagement part of this is part of our wider journey towards co-production. It sits alongside the wider work and the ongoing work that's being done in the RPB space about that. Getting the engagement right for exercises like this is super, super important to me and I really welcome that you wanted to look at that really closely. I absolutely recognise as well that the report doesn't really set out. What we're looking at here is that engagement process, not necessarily the content and the data that was gathered via it. I think maybe our report doesn't show that this report is actually a separate thing from that. No, and there's lots of things in the report. There's no appendices in the report that should be there. I'd like to give you the opportunity to update us on your timeframes and what you're expecting in terms of timeframes, just so the members of the public are clear on that journey. This is the part about the preliminary report, really, around the learning disabilities engagement exercise. The older person's report is being finalised and then we'll draw the conclusions and recommendations. I'll hand over to officers to give you the details of that. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you, Councillor Chan, Chair. Again, apologies for the miscommunication that has led us to not sharing those papers. I too played a part in that. It is really useful to make that separation of the fact that the engagement exercise is as much a part and as maybe even more important a part than actually the recommendations at the end, which is recognised nationally through the national work that is going on behind the scenes around day opportunities and how important it is to engage with people and ensure that they are part of the design of the services moving forward to make sure they're fit for the future. The team has undertaken a quite rigorous and lengthy engagement exercise at the end of last year. I won't steal Pamela's thunder to tell you what's happened, but Pamela's got a brief presentation to just show you what's happened to date and what the next steps are. We too recognise the role of scrutiny and appreciate that and would welcome those questions beforehand so that we can actually do this piece of work justice. So I'll hand you over to Pamela. Thank you. Thank you, Sharon. Thank you. I'm going to share my screen. Would you please let me know if you can see that? Yes. Yeah. Thank you, Chair. Thank you for inviting me today. I appreciate the circumstances of this presentation aren't what was originally planned, so I will give you an overview of the engagement process and then take any questions. And if there's anything in here that you'd like to know more about or that you think requires further analysis, we will be coming back on the 18th of July. At that point, with both reports combined and also with the list of recommendations once they've been subject to further checks internally that they're the right things that we're putting across. So the There we go. So this engagement took, we decided to take a mixed method cooperative inquiry approach after some decision making in the team about what approach we would take from a research methodology point of view. So we chose a cooperative inquiry because this is where a group of people come together to conduct research with people, including each other, rather than on people and this fits really well with the co-production agenda that Councillor Cox talked about earlier, and also we felt it chined well with the values and stronger, fairer, greener. We decided to use as our mixed methods, just research, a survey, and also a series of live engagement events. The survey was live between the 16th of October and the 11th of October. It asked where people lived for some demographic data about what their interest in the topic was, for example, were they a person using services, were they a carer, a member of staff, etc. What they felt worked well, what didn't, what ought to change, what barriers there were, and most importantly, what matters to them in a good day opportunity. There was an easy read version and explanatory booklets made available. Both versions were available in Welsh and the survey was available online and as paper copies. In terms of the responses, we had a very good comms campaign on this, so we had a high number of responses, 472. As you can see here, we had 395 in English, 77 were easy read versions, which I understand is a record number for easy read returns, and we didn't have any in Welsh. So, in terms of where the survey responses came from, you can see this here. I believe in Newtown, this reflects the fact that there is a depth of need in that locality, which was heard loud and clear by the team. Newtown is also the second most populous locality in Paris, as you know, after Welsh rule and Montgomery, so it makes sense that responses were high here. You also note that there are a large number of responses from Knighton and Pristine. This is for several reasons, so people understandably had questions about the reopening of East Radnor Day Centre, which I understand is now open for lunch club twice a week and also our home support services are based there. There was also very proactive work done by Councillor Bev in distributing the survey there, thank you Councillor Bev, and there was very proactive work by the Comm, which is a community-run community centre within Knighton. Slide four shows you the survey response by personal reason for participating, high level of interest in the general public, which shows how well day opportunities touch people's lives and reflects its importance in the prevention and wellbeing space. And when I return in July to give further analysis, I'll explain a bit more about how that interlinks with various pieces of work that we're doing and how their synthesis and collaboration going on there. Slide five shows the numbers of people attending the engagement events. So engagement events were held in every locality in Paris between the 13th of November and the 17th of December, and then I believe later there was an extra session held by Councillor Cox in Welshpool at the community haven for which we're really grateful, that was some very rich information given there. Two events were held online, we made sure that events were held in the daytime and also in the evening in order to maximise the accessibility and the availability for service users to attend. Three events had no attendees, one was an online event, one was an evening event, and one event had to be cancelled due to service need. Three events run by the team were available in English and Welsh and we ensured physical accessibility in all venues, as well as dementia friendly and newer divergence friendly venues, where we could. We also made sure that there was a native Welsh speaker available for all events. As you can see here our total number of attendees was 357 people, service users made up 118 of these, and other stakeholders and this would be a mixture of general public, councillors, staff, stakeholders, third sector, and other statutory partners made up 239. Apologies. So this is usually the service mapping and this began prior to the survey and engagement. There is a bit more in the report about this and completely understand if councillors would like to read this and write back to me with questions, where applicable. So the service mapping began prior to any survey or engaging activity. We started with our in house services and our commission provision. There was a mixture of desk based research, for example, looking at Dowis and info engine, speaking with colleagues from leisure. Our councillors were very helpful. Councillor Cox, thank you for disseminating this work into the community. There was an emerging picture which is still evolving, and what it showed us is that the landscape regarding day opportunities is not static, it's very dynamic. Communities are very proactive and neighbourhood resilience and production is alive and well. Sorry, there's a jumping around of my slide there. So this is a mapping of services by location. The provision, as you might expect, mainly fits with where the main towns in the county are. And this also fits broadly with sustainable powers. Oh, sorry, was that question? No, it's just me coughing. Oh, excuse me. Sorry. So, so yeah, there is further analysis available on this, albeit possibly better suited to the July meeting, and councillors have had a chance to read through properly and view the recommendations and full analysis and appendices. So, what is available in your area? So this slide shows there's quite a diversity of things. In honesty, we struggled to capture absolutely everything that was available. And we got this information from a combination of the survey results, engagement discussions with people, and also the desk based research. So this shows I think the variety of things that are on offer. It also shows that there are some things that are more universally on offer. So for example, sports and exercise is available to the universal population. And we found that other wellbeing opportunities are highly valued and starting to emerge within particular pockets of activity. So, what's working well? So people felt that the overall day centre experience that's delivered by our in-house services and commission providers is working well because there's a warm space in the community area, and there's friendly staff and it offers the opportunity to socialise. Hot meals and respite were valued, peer support, having fun was actually brought up more than once and I think it's important to recognise that. Transport does work well where it's available. Learning skills, some staff mentioned a reduction on pressure elsewhere in the system. And dementia support outreach and the opportunity to have a bath, I understand that came from a specific service in McCunliffe. What's working not so well? The overall one was transport. It was felt that information sharing could be better. I think this was reflected in conversations about some of the communication about opportunities available. People felt that they would like more respite and more specialist support and overall more joined up working. So, in terms of what needs to change, it's clear that people felt that they wanted more time in day opportunities. And actually this reflects the increase that we've seen in demand for prevention. People also felt that transport was really key and this was something that officers are undertaking work with collaboratively across the council. There's increased use of buildings, was highlighted as a theme, which was also being addressed in our asset-based community development approach. More activities, this was felt to be a bigger range of activities available. Community hubs, so there are some areas where community hubs exist, for example in Lyton, those are felt to work really well. People would like to improve information sharing and have the opportunity for longer activities during the day. I'll let people read when we circulate the slides. In terms of next steps, I'm happy to let councillors know that this report is currently proceeding through internal checks. This was the learning disabilities report that you had circulated. The older people's report is currently being reviewed internally and will go to social services briefing on the 27th of June. We'll then proceed through a corporate leadership team in July before coming back to scrutiny on the 18th of July and cabinet on the 30th of July. Next steps are that we are looking at all the information that came from the engagement, putting together recommendations that are concrete and tangible. We will bring those back to you in July. Thanks Pam. I think you've answered one of our questions because it was unclear as to how come we only had reference to learning disabilities in this report and I wasn't sure where the older person's analysis and the results of that engagement sat with all of this. That's helpful. My main question then is, what are the timeframes in terms of you coming up with options and what are your timeframes for decision making and rolling that out? Because I want to make sure we can, if we feel that there are issues with the engagement exercise and that there's anything that we would like to recommend is revisited, how is that going to sit in with your timeframes? I think it's a really valid point that actually the scrutiny of the engagement needs to happen and those timescales are too tight probably and will need to be altered, I would suggest. We are finalising the data analysis from the older adults engagement in the next week or so. We met this week to just start doing some of that and we were looking to draw the options and some ideas of some recommendations for consultation over the next three or four weeks, ready for CLT. But if we're going to scrutinise the engagement and its appropriateness and rigour, then we would need to move those dates back. Yes, so when you come up with those options, do they then go back out to consultation? Yes, well, yes. And so then when, I know this is possibly a difficult question, but when are you hoping to be in a position to make some decisions on which options will be pursued? I suppose it depends how long it takes for us to get through this process of scrutiny. Okay, okay. Because there may well be things that we can do outside of formal meetings and it's just, I don't want us not to play a part in this. No, absolutely. Councillor Gareth? Just very quickly, I need to declare an interest because I am a trustee of the Bilswells community support group. But my question is, there are questions within the reports. For example, under paragraph 4.2.5, there's a statement, there's also a committee car transport scheme. However, it's not clear if there's access by any adults aged 18 to 65 with care and support needs. In my mind, that's a question and I want to know, well, I would be asking what is the service doing to check up if there are any adults of that age range accessing that support? To me, if you're raising the question, you need to also state what actions you're taking around that. And how are you going to clarify some of this information with other members of the community? If you've got a report out and you say something around a service being provided in Krakow, which is also provided in Preston, Knighton, Bilthurst or Gunlyce and not mentioned in the report, that's just going to raise issues. I know you're only working on the information you've got, but it's putting questions into people's minds. Sharon, are you able to come back on that or is there anything you want to respond to? Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, Councillor Gareth. If we're asking questions, then we need to answer them and the team will be doing that through the process of the analysis and the recommendations. I think it was a concern of myself as well that we won't have captured everything and it's a correlation of all sorts of different information streams, not just the engagement. We've got work that we're doing with the third sector forums and our early help and prevention collaborative, where we're gathering data around what's out there and what's available. So there's various information streams that are coming in to inform all of this, but I've no doubt that we won't have heard about everything. That's that check and balance about taking it back out to get that check and balance around. Is that what we've heard? Have we understood it completely? Is there anything further to add? One of the thoughts around a directory of information, that's something that we really need to drill down into because we've already got DOWIS, we've got Info Engine, we've got all sorts of different places where we collect data. But it's only as good as the people who are putting the data on and the information and how we keep it up to date. So I think there's something about how do we continually update information and capture what's happening and review what's happening that we need to bottom out as well. Sharon, in the education side of things, when they've been looking at making decisions such as whether or not to close a school and they've done an engagement exercise, the papers that they've got put with that include anonymised responses. So I think it would be good for us to have anonymised survey responses, a selection of them at the very least, as well as copies again of the questions that were asked and copies of the materials at engagement events as well and how you collected any responses from those engagement events. Was there a note taker? Do people complete those questions there or were they just given the information to go away and complete those surveys? So there's that kind of thing that I think that I'd like that sits behind this. Councillor Chris, have you got something you'd like to ask? Yes, if I could. Thank you. And I think I think the discussion and presentation by Pamela has been really helpful. So thank you for doing that, because it puts things into a bit more context and clarity. Because when I was looking at it, I was thinking, hang on a minute, where's the older persons? And that was the one I was looking for. Although the report that's in there is quite interesting, but I need to give it further scrutiny. And I just want to come on to first of all, I think it was helpful to have the explanation around the co-production and using of the mix methods and the engagement model that you've used. And there's a couple of things, though, that I want to get some consideration of. One is the response rate. And because you've done some form of survey on there and you had four hundred and seventy two responses out of what? So is this in relation to service users using that particular service or is it the whole of the powers population? Because that on the because any valid questionnaire survey that you do academically has to be over 16 percent for it to give it more weight and validity going forward. So I'd want to understand that. You then mentioned that you'd done some engagement events where you'd had three hundred and fifty seven people attend. Were there any duplications from those people that had filled in the survey because that could show potentially a bias in on that? So it's around how you've looked at that to making sure that that's robust enough and not on there. On that point, Chris, please. Also, I'd like to know those attendees. What was the breakdown between service users and counselors and third sector organizations? Because I know for some engagement events, there was a very small number of attendees and they were not attendees service users. They were a counselor and, for example, members of CLICE. Sorry, Chris, for interrupting. No, no, I think I think I think this helps with the validity, because as counselor Sean said, this is about co-production and we do need all of those people to be engaged in the process, Amanda, in order to make it robust. We also just need to understand it for the transparency aspect within it, so that when you're then starting to make decisions of service provision as a part of sustainable powers moving forward, that is more on a robust level. One thing that I would ask for you to then look at when you're drawing conclusions out of the future model is what considerations are being given to the impact of a decision. So if you decide that you're going to do X rather than Y, what is the consequences of X? Because sometimes we'll make a decision here in the local authority, but that will have a consequence to our partners in health care, for example. Do we just push it to a different part of the system? This is about remodeling the system where all parts of the system come together, and I think there's a real opportunity to do this. This is about a preventative strategy coming in place to stop people going into hospital in the first place and keeping them at home with that support package that's then enabled, and that's where it then starts to tie in with our recruitment strategy around Grow Your Own, and then domiciliary care, et cetera, et cetera, and we just need to build on that, and that's what I'd like to see on there. I think there's a real opportunity here, and I'm glad we're seeing sight of it. I'd like to see it before it comes to scrutiny the paperwork so that we can really give you some constructive feedback to help shape and model this going forward, before it then goes to officers to remodel, before it goes to cabinet, before they then endorse whatever decisions then are going to move forward. But thank you for what you've done so far. Thank you, Councillor Chris. That's how we all feel. Thank you, sorry, Pam. Oh, I apologise. If I can come back on a couple of those points, Councillor Chris. So the response rate in terms of who it was open to, because it's been a topic that has come up time and again in various conversations, so we took the decision to have it open to the general public so anybody in powers was able to respond. In terms of what population of actual service users and carers and families within the day service and day centre and stats at the moment, I will have to come back to you on that if that's okay. But I understand it's a high proportion of those using those services. We had 357 who attended the engagement events, who of them had filled in the survey, we weren't able to gather that information, I'm afraid, so we don't have that available. In terms of the breakdown of service users by whether who was a counsellor and third sector, we did ask for that information at the event, we had a sign in sheet. Not everybody chose to give it. However, I will go back to the team and see what information we do have. I'm just looking at my breakdown of information that I do have. Chair, you are completely right in saying that there were a number of events where there were just, well I don't say just, but where there was no service users specifically, but there was a member of CLICE and/or a counsellor. And I will go back. What I can tell you is that the number of service users versus other attendees amongst the total in each event, and I won't read them out now, but I'll make this information available. That would be great if we could have that in the next draft of this report, please. Absolutely. And in terms of what considerations are being given to the impact of a decision, yeah, very, very important point indeed. My answer to that, so decision making will follow a process where there's an options appraisal. Cost benefits, risks of all options will be weighed in that, and that will be fully lined out in terms of the impact on the system, both internally to the local authority and elsewhere. We've been having a lot of conversations about prevention across the piece, including through the early help and prevention collaborative, which is really important with health and third sector. And it does feel that these things are starting to coalesce into one system approach. So Councillor Chris, I would welcome any comments you have when I come back to you with the information about options, about the impact on the system as a whole. Thank you, Pam. And yes, if those other points that Chris has raised, where you are able to get the response rates information, if you're able to put that in the next draft of the report as well, that would be great. Just a couple of points for me that I would like to see again in the report is, I think it needs to be made clear where you're looking at specific areas that services have closed during or just before or during COVID and haven't reopened. If you're able to include that information, that would be helpful. And then also where you're able to give an overview of the home support services as well and how that fits in with this. I may be wrong, I can't see this mention of that in the report, but I want to know whether or not that is something that you have looked at in conjunction with this and whether you've got any analysis on that as well. Thank you, Councillor Amanda. This will follow, so home support, this was looked at largely more in the older people's report. Home support does have some support for those with learning disabilities though, doesn't it? It does, that's correct. But it's largely used by people aged 50 and over. So in the lens of looking at it at the time, eventually it will be included in the one report and both combined. Okay, great. We have a Teams channel for this committee. So what would be really good is if all of the data you're able to get with this and the documents and everything that sits behind this and the next draft of this with its appendices. If we could get that to Kath to get in our Teams channel as early as possible so we can all start looking at how we can work to do as good as scrutiny exercise as possible, that would be really appreciated. Absolutely. Thank you. Councillors, have you got any other questions? Sharon? Thank you. I was just wondering if we wanted to discuss now or outside of this around how we introduce people with lived experience for you to have contact with and discussions with and how we think? Yeah, I would really like to do that. We have discussed this previously as to how we can speak with service users or even potential service users because not everybody has access day opportunities. And how best we could do that. So I think that's something we could take offline. Okay, great. Thank you. Anyone else got any comments they'd like to make? Nope. Okay, thank you, Sharon and Pam and Councillor Sian for coming on that one. All we need to do is look at the forward work programme, which I think I'll take in private as I'm slightly aware that the July meeting agenda now looks incredibly full. So I think we may need to put in another meeting in the diary for over the summer and go from there. So thank you, officers and cabinet members for coming. I appreciate your time. And thank you for the comments about the delay. I appreciate your candour with that on the papers. Thank you. Right, members, if you can stay on and Kath, if you could take us offline, that would be great. [ Silence ]