Transcript

(water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) (water splashing) So the second item on the agenda is the election of the Vice Chairman, and I would like to nominate Jamie Martin. Can I second that please? Yes. So there's no other nominations, so Jamie is a vice chair. So, Nick, I'd like to take any apologies for the meeting. Thank you, Chair. We haven't received any apologies to this meeting. And then I'd like to go on, if there are any declarations of interest from members in respect to the agenda. I'm going to tell you that there's no no declarations of interest. The second item on to Nick's item is the confirmation of the minutes. Are there any issues with confirmation of the minutes? I'll just say I'm noticed it wasn't noted about some sort of concession scheme for the ice rink in terms of maybe low income families or families within BCP, and that wasn't like to do this. I can add that into minutes and then would they be approved other than that? Yeah. There was one other item. It's covered in the minutes that Steve Bartlett sent to cross. He was asking for. I just opened this up to members who's asking for clarification on the revenue recognition. So this was the revenue which came in from the winter wonderland. So, I say, the irrespective of the minutes, it's just, it's nothing really in there. I think at the time, we were saying that the bulk of the money came in. And then the only things which were actually spent out of the general fund was the electric, but the park itself, the little gardens actually retained some of the money. There was all a bit not not particularly clear, but essentially, he did ask for clarification on that. I just wondered if anyone received, he did send an email to everyone was did anybody have anything else to say on that. And he actually also mentions planting seeds grass seeds. You might want to expand on that, because that was also discussed in the minutes or not. I don't have a recollection of the, he's brought that up separately. And actually I've gone back to him on that and I have actually looked at the grass mix that was in there. And then the work program to feature dates, because I've missed it. Yeah. Is that okay. As long as we cover it. Yes. So I've tried to make it as complicated as possible. Can you incorporate it all out into the minutes, please. Yeah, but I'll put the additions in, send them around to the committee for approval and then we'll go from that. So now we're looking at the lower central gardens trust board may report and Kate. So if you want to present this item or whether you want to or not, I'm sure you're your application, I'm afraid. Thank you chair. I will probably introduce it and then hand over to various colleagues when we get to relevant section. That's okay with this house and members of the board. So I think first item that we come on to is in relation to the delegation of authority, which the board. Our last meeting agreed that they would take away to have more detailed look around the draft document that was produced. I'm going to be opening up to the board for comments on any clarifications, additions, thoughts, welcomed in the hope that we can move this forward for adoption. So I think that going, looking at the, looking at the delegation, is there a, in terms of the time limit on the, on the, on the delegation, it says some of which can be. It was saying about that you were dedicating authority, but this is just for a single event or I just want to make sure that this not we're not giving some sort of a continual. Going for operational day to day service decisions, unless the board chooses, but not to go that way, but that's the intention. So we haven't been able to find any previous formal scheme of officer delegation. So, hence this document has been put forward, but historically, the items listed relate to day to day operational decisions that have previously been taken by officers rather than bringing them to the board on each occasion. I'm going to suggest possibly proposing an amendment whereby we do it on an annual basis, so that, just in case things start to go. Right. And otherwise, they'll say, you know, the decision of the 24 May 24, you know, covers, covers everything going forward. Okay. Yeah. Is there a danger that by only doing it annually, some important decisions are missed in the interim. Any important fundamental proposal suggestion would still come back to the board so it should be under these delegations that are only the operational decisions that are laid out in this scheme of delegations. But if you wanted to add more clarification to that, we could any major change should come to the board. And like everybody else I'm a bit nervous about this. To what extent would the delegation take effect. I mean, for instance, would you decide to put an event on without consulting us. And if you look at it as detailed in the appendency, then any, any events of a, I can't believe that man does it. Does it? We stipulate certain size. I can't remember. We'll come back to the board as laid out. And based on your experience on the book, Council Williams, I think, hopefully you'd be able to add some context and sort of the historical and operational decisions that officers have taken, rather than bring into the board in your previous role of chair. But, you know, that's your story. And finally, it all worked. As long as we don't go beyond what we used to do. I'm happy to support it. I don't believe we are looking to change what's historically done. Just formalise it so everyone is clear. I mean, that was my understanding of the report. If I can just clarify as far as I could see any large events would be, you know, like an item or something like that would come back to the board. A bunch of students wanted to film in their gardens for an afternoon that wouldn't be coming back to the board. The, the, the planting is kind of like the ball, but maybe the, the mix of grass seed would be something which is kind of delegated. But if that's done something which is done annually, then we can go out and we can say, okay, well, you know, in terms of the grass seed. It's quite a lot of trefoil and rye in the mix at the moment. But, but, but essentially that's something that, you know, could be looked at on annual wages for long term. Yeah, that's my understanding of it. Does that sound about right? Yes, you're correct. Thank you. That nomination, Lawrence. Perfect. Jamie. Thank you very much. The second item and the third item within the report, I'll hand over to Amanda Barry. If that's okay, because it led by the commercial operations directorate. So the first item we have is the update on the concessions and cashless payment. And accessibility item, which was raised by the board. Thank you. So a query was raised at the last meeting in relation to cashless provision within the kiosks primarily within the gardens. The facilities have recently moved within commercial operations. So still within the same directorate, but now within the sea front area rather than the leisure and events area where they previously were. And the provisions on site at the moment are for cashless within those sites. What we are very aware of is a successful motion that was taken to council asking for a review of cashless and cash only across BCP as a whole, rather than just the gardens. And we will be working with colleagues in finance to assist them with that review. But that is the current position of those kiosks at the moment. But happy to take any questions or any feedback on that which we can share with our colleagues as part of that review. Thanks, Amanda. Do we have any information to the team actually record if they get people asking to pay by cash and not able to pay by the means that's interesting to know sort of the level of interest from the public to actually pay only by that means. Thank you. They don't formally record any request to pay by cash instead of if card or app or apps. There are an occasions people who ask do they accept cash, but we don't have any formal records of the numbers. Sorry for my through your chair. I just wonder whether it's worth doing a short survey or of that. It's not so much. I mean, quite often I'll offer I'll say, you know, do you want me to pay cash or card? And I can do either. And many people would be in that in that camp. It is the people who will turn away and not make a transaction because they can't play by cash. It would be as interesting. So not necessarily in these, but some of our kiosks to try and inform the debate because always we may be worrying about something that's very small or significant and we don't really know without data. Just before we move over to cancer loss, just to let you know that live feed the television bit has gone down. So, but they've still got our sound so you can you can pull faces without the public knowing. Thank you. I, I'm in my 70s. I don't have a problem paying cashless. I've got a vote that I'm pretty afraid. However, a lot of my contemporaries, both slightly younger and a lot older do have an issue. I don't know how to use cashless payments, and they feel very uncomfortable, not being able to pay cash. This isn't going to last forever, because obviously nature takes its course, and they all to become deceased and the younger will be all switched on to cashless. I'd like to think that we could cater for people of an age that can't cope with cashless. We have an issue with car parks, the same problem. I would like to think in the parks, certainly the set low gardens, we could be a bit more understanding of people of an age. They used the gardens a lot. It's somewhere that is, and I think I'd like the opportunity for them to use cash for a while longer yet if possible. You, you could, couldn't bar somebody from using cash if you had cashless for older people. But if we could look at this over a longer term, perhaps make allowance for pensioners. Thank you. Absolutely, I'll take both of those comments forward as part of the review, because, as you say, Councilor Williams, it's an issue, or a concern across a number of areas that BCP manages and operates. So I'll make sure it's fed into the review. Just drawing on that cash issue again, I quite myself personally, I use cash for one specific reason. I spend an in order to amount of money each week on coffee. And so I always take out 80 pounds at the beginning of the week, and when that's gone, that's my coffee budget gone. So going back to Andy Hadley's point, actually, I actually find that I very, very quickly get used to the fact when Starbucks stopped taking cash in the June of last year, I only went once and then I didn't go back and currently going to your closest cash coffee to the gardens is the parlor. And actually people who use cash in that way or whatever way they use it do tend to get quite used to where they where they can go for cash or not. I do can pay on my phone. It's just, I just end up spending too much. I want to say I'm a fan of cash as well. But, and I often pay in smaller shops, but I, and I really understand the older people. But it doesn't take away the problem that older people have in car parks, but, you know, because sometimes the machine will eat your cash, and then they don't have another pound coin. So, and I think most people do have a card, but I think what I find weird is that when you're offering someone, you know, what I feel is this legitimate form of payment, and they say no, and this happened to me in a restaurant. And they said no, and I had cash and should know we were only taking cars and I found that really weird, the first time it happened. So, yeah, maybe I like the idea of a little bit while longer, but I understand the difficulties, because whoever is working on the kiosk will have to have a cash float. If they're taking cash, they need to be able to give change. And then, and they're having cash on them with all the, you know, with the issues around safety and their personal safety. And so I get it is, it is a very tricky situation isn't it. Thank you. Thank you, Matt. Jamie. Yeah, thank you, Chair. What I was thinking when I boarded up this up last time was, yeah, essentially it's various groups in society who can't or don't want to use cash and I'm sorry, cards, you know, you know, cashless systems. And it wasn't so much worrying about maybe people who. Who don't want to as such although that's important, it was maybe more about people who can't, and just in a specific case, although of course there's a whole council looking into it just from terms of the garden boards, and, you know, making sure that it's being done for, you know, the provision of open space and both cities for enjoyment of the public, I was just thinking more maybe like this is vulnerable communities who maybe have cash and then use that, you know, you would go out and spend in the gardens It was just because on the last budget, there was a line, which has all been taken out with regards to managing the cash aspect of the concessions. And so obviously that had happened within that timeframe, hadn't it, rather than something that had been done because it was as mentioned of there's been cashless for several years on the see from, but didn't extend into the garden so did it, because there's still an allowance within the budget to manage those cash facilities. So it was just a case of the board being aware saying, okay, there might be a small general policy across the conurbation, and obviously there's the motion now looking at that. And so we're saying what is important in terms of the gardens, and as the trust saying, you know, how do we want it to be accessible to people. So that was sort of a distinction. I know there's a whole bigger argument about across the conurbation and but it's just about people who who definitely, you know, need to use cash, that was the emphasis. I don't want to prolong the debate. I think there's an important point there. It's not free for us to deal with cash. The problems are burned out mentioned in terms of self safety, but also just processing it, taking to the bank and dealing with cash has a cost. And it isn't just just old people, there are some people who do it through choice. And I guess that was part of why I was interested and know what the con to miss at some point we're going to have to say, I'm sorry, you know, that's the way it is. And it's at what point we get to that, because as you're writing this over on says that there's a whole thing about at some point it's inevitable. And when we found with the in the COVID period, actually people were far more prepared to do that because they didn't want to receive something that might be contaminated in return. And so, you know, there wasn't, there was a change there when more people got used to the idea of going cashless and I just don't know when that point is but we, we somehow need to tread that that board carefully, don't we? Thank you. So, we are, we're needing to accept the, the concessions part of the report was that separate or, so included in there. And we've got a head of ourselves by accepting the whole lot and then discussing something we'd already accepted. Was that part of the information of the report, or let's see. Can we accept it with the understanding that officers will look at the situation concerning cashless. I think that's, yes, I think that's fair. And also in terms of cashless payment, can we say specifically towards the vulnerable groups, because I think that was an important point that Jamie brought up there as well. And you can wash money, these girls, laundry, it's going on. Okay, the next item is an update on activities and events within the gardens and a new proposal to consider. Again, I'll hand over to my diary. Thank you. So from point five in the report, we've just identified some activities and events, which will be taking place within the gardens area. As per the recommendations, these really are just for noting and these align with the scheme of delegation around the events at a certain scale that we would normally bring to the board's attention. Happy to take any questions on those if you have any. The other item connected to that is a proposal that we have received in relation to a new event to take place in July and August within the lower gardens area, and this is a summer skate event. There's some information within the report that gives a bit of an overview of what's being proposed, but it aims to be an inclusive event, which matches the born with gardens heritage. And it would be a roller skate event, but also with a number of other activities, such as movie nights and yoga mornings, and some skate sessions for local schools. The location for the activity is, if you recall where the ice rink was, it's actually being proposed to put it more to the east of that as you're looking towards the town center area. And there's some information there in terms of the catering and the bar provision. But happy to take any questions and we're looking for your views on that proposal. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, open up to the floor and. Thank you. My first question would be. What consideration has been has there been toward potential damage to the grassy areas there. I know that's a subject that reoccurs when it comes to events in the gardens, but has to be asked nonetheless, I think. Thank you. And the operator has submitted a protection plan, both in relation to trees, but also the grass area. So that would be taken forward with the parks team, and there has been some initial conversations already, and part of the proposal for having in a slightly different location to whether ice rink has previously gone is to provide some protection for the grass within that space. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. I'm, I'm new support and I just wonder we, we, if we're going to do events in summer time and the winter time. The grasses are green desert. There are other habitats that are probably more more interesting, but also it does animate the park and it's a great thing in terms of the use of the park. It's lovely seeing people all ages enjoying the skating in the summer, in summer and all in the winter to date and now proposal for the summer. Is there an area where we should be looking to maybe not have grass because we spend an awful lot of time and effort in trying to restore the grass between events and if we can have summertime and wintertime events, should we be having an eventing area within the lower gardens. I'm sorry that in there is as a suggestion to the board and it might be sacrosanct in terms of the history of the park, but in terms of the future of the park. It would save us doing an awful lot of reworking of the grass grassy area for everyone to get covered up by another event, not so long after that. I wonder if that's something the board might want to consider. It's been on the board quite a while and I think one of the things that we're here to do is protect the heritage that's been there since 18, I think it's 96, and certainly a long time. It seems to me that we're heading towards making it into the heavily gardens of Bournemouth rather than the lower gardens. And I think there's there's a point in time where we've got to decide whether it's still a pressure gardens. Well, we're going to turn it into a heavily gardens. I personally think that people came to Bournemouth to enjoy the gardens and the sea and be. It was part of the offer that people came came to the area for. If we're going to change that we ought to be honest with the public and ask them if that's what they want. Personally, I don't. I've lived here 40, 45 years, and I've enjoyed the gardens in those 45 years. And my contemporaries have to, and the next generation after me, have and do. And I think we've, we've got to look at this in the light of it being a historic garden and not a pleasure now. I have reservations as well about turning the whole place into I get the point about having a space, but then when you have an event on as a Christmas time the whole place is teaming with people. And those people who live in flats in the town center and have no gardens and no word for their children to play. And just to relax and enjoy. They're losing that space. I know it might seem a little bit. I get the commercial aspect and I get that making money is really important. So, but I do feel a little I have I'm with you on that one Lawrence. I find it difficult to turn the whole place into a commercial, because it is lovely walking down there in a summer's day and people sitting on the grass and relaxing and enjoying themselves. And, and maybe it's yeah, maybe it isn't big enough for these commercial events because, as I say, in the winter time, there are people everywhere and rubbish everywhere, and it does take away from the actual pleasure of the gardens as such. Roger. Thank you. What exactly is the commercial benefit of having escaped event, no, are we talking hundreds of pounds, thousands of pounds, have we quantified exactly how much this will be worth, if anything, and who benefits. Thank you. At the moment, the operators submitted an event application proposal. So in terms of sort of a council fee, we're not a stage to be able to say commercially what that would bring in. In terms of the wider benefits, the opportunity that's being presented, as well as, yes, providing a commercial operation. It's helping support the ambitions of the town center action plan and therefore supporting the activity and regeneration within the town center overall. And as we've seen with other events that take place in the gardens and the town center often people will come in and spend money in other areas of the town center, as well as the particular event that is taking place. So, unfortunately, I don't have any particular data or figures to provide you. But from past experience, there is generally a wider economic benefit to these types of activity. Yeah, just coming, I think, or just in terms of the, in terms of the area. I do think that if we were to do anything other than have grass on there. If you go down to the area, it's got a huge drainage. And that's why, in a sense, it's quite hard to, to continue to renew the grass and I appreciate the various different seed mixers which are being used down there. But I think, you know, if you put it down to hard standing, you'd have a lot more damage to the, to the area. And I think actually, going back to the historical nature of it, actually, if you go back to the 1880s and you look at the old maps of the park at that end, it was actually there was a large fountain there, and it was, it was, it was paved. And they did actually remove that in the early early early sort of 1900 years ago. So, but, but I think actually we've improved on it by having the grass there and by making it some events areas. So we don't have that staticity in a sense, but it is something and people do sit on the grass and either McDonald's and hopefully put it in the bin and then afterwards. But it is an area where people, and that is one of the purposes of my one issue that I just built is a little bit pressing on this is that we're talking about an event which ends on the 26th of August, which is kind of like the end of the day. It's kind of like the end of the growing season for grass. I think you'd struggle to, to re to reseed that before, before winter wonderland. That's my, my only concern what, what we would do with that was in place for that. Thank you. And you'll know that I'm not anti leisure and tourism because I was the portfolio holder for many years in boomers. It is just the place, it's just the location. I mean, there are other central locations where this could happen. Also common, for instance, even on the sea front. I just think this could be the one step too far with the lower gardens. I think we've got to draw a line somewhere and this is it, in my opinion. Thanks. So, yeah, just sort of note the parallel between the discussion that the environment in place over the scrutiny committee with regards to obviously keep and trying to keep Paul Park as a, or acknowledging that there's a residence in. Paul tells us that we want to use that park as their sort of outdoor space, and the same it's happening here and, like, just prove a whole of the summer holiday school summer holidays. Putting that event in. It's sort of it does deprive, as you say, burn it out of a space for. Residence potentially that's where it sort of comes into paragraph 12 with regards to the ambitions of the form form of town centre partnership group, which I'm not too sure what they are in any sort of detail. So, it's just. So, on the one hand, I think it's, I think it's a really good thing because I think there's, you know, it offers something in a central space. It's just that if you're now taking potentially a key time of year out. And, yeah, just expanding that and create a busier space here. I don't know if that still fits in with what the gardens are for. But then as well, it sort of does because obviously it does bring in great events for people to enjoy so and, you know, free events as well, which is. It's quite important and all that. So, just come in to say that I think at the moment, Amanda, correct me from wrong, they are just proposing a one year trial at this stage. So this isn't a long term commitment that we're asking the board to agree or not to. This would be a one off event at this stage that we could learn a lot from potentially to then consider whether or not. It's something that the board would want to support longer term or the actual provider would want to. And so at the stage, just to clarify, it's just a one year. Yeah, go ahead. Thank you. In relation to the queries about the grass. I, I'd have to leave it to my colleagues to comment on the timing for seeding. But because of their concerns about the ice cream location, that's why an alternative location has been suggested as, which is to the right of where the ice cream would normally go. And the operator is very aware of the concerns over grass and as part of their planning for the event have taken that into consideration. I believe I don't know that the finer technical details of it, but I believe the proposals of the sort of tent or marquee that they would be using would allow sort of light and airflow through to assist with the grass protection. But very aware of the grass issue linked to the ice rink, which is why I'm working with colleagues in the parks team and alternative locations been suggested for the trial. I'm probably being really thick. What you're saying is to the east of the ice rink. So, but that's the ice cream kind of goes up to the stream. So that would be on the other bank of the stream, or am I, am I not known my north, south, east and west. I would just say, if you remember back to where the kids club tent used to be. That's the area we're talking about where the kids club tent used to be. So if you if you've got the ice rink site there, then you've got the cross path going through the gardens, the area towards the bandstand side so you cross over the path from the ice cream. And that makes, for me that makes a big difference because I, because obviously the kids tent was there every year. And normally with my kids in it during the summer. So, so I know, I do know what you mean. So we're not covering the same areas, the ice rink, and that area is actually got quite good. We're at the moment. Thank you. And I may not have my east, south, north, correctly. But what we do have is an image of the location. If you'd like us to share that as part of the meeting, that might help give some clarity on the location. Sure. Well, we're waiting. Sorry, could I just take the opportunity to introduce my colleagues, which I should have done earlier because they've not been to the board before, but hopefully will be regular attendees going forward and hopefully help with some of the more parks related activities. So, so next to me here is Chris when he's our operations manager and actually oversees the lower central gardens. And so hopefully you might want to challenge him on a few questions that are going to come forward in a moment. And so that next to him is Mike Parkinson, who is our parks, making spaces manager across the whole BCP. Thank you. Well, we're waiting, we may as well introduce the councillors to you so that they will fit in seamlessly. I'm Matt, Councillor for. Andy Hadley, cool town, and I have the environment portfolio. Jamie Martin, former central. Lawrence Williams, listen down on my foot. I have a question about this plan for the summer scheme. Roger, I have a question about this plan for the summer scheme. Are we talking about this year in the gardens? Yes. Yes, it would be this starting in July, going into August. My understanding with applications to do anything in public with regard to be and probably the same for other councils is that you have to plan the year before. And this is obviously very, very soon. And has it been in the pipeline for a while? Have they? It's been applied for some time. The application into our events team has only been quite recent, but the operator has been working on plans for this type of event for some time, but hasn't come forward with it previously. So in terms of their event management process and all their proposals, they are very developed. Thank you. Thank you for the image that helps. In terms of the view, I'm struggling to have an impression of how big this is going to be. What kind of equipment is involved, how it's going to be for want of a better word placed on the ground, both the ring and anything associated with it. And there's part of my brain saying, great, you're not going to be affecting the area that already gets damaged by the ice rink. There's another little sneaky part of my brain going, well, if we've already got a bad piece of ground. Just stick it on there again and forever it'll be a bad piece of ground. Yeah, but it's hard to be accurate in that assessment because I can't get a picture in my head of exactly the impact of the role of skating rink. So I don't have the technical detail in front of me in terms of weights or exact scale or size of the infrastructure and technical elements. Those will be within the finer details of their application. But unfortunately, I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but what we do have is another image, which is sort of an artist impression of what the proposal would look like. Just be aware, this location is on the ice rink location, so they have been provided an alternative view on the secondary location that's been identified. It would need adapting to fit the new space. As I say, this was very much to give an artist view of what the offer could look like. No, I think I'd be more inclined to support this on the on the other location. I appreciate what you're saying, Roger, about maybe it was a bad patch, but actually that patch is recovering and with what we said last time about putting in better. Yeah, or looking at alternatives and maybe for going for bowling green, like aesthetic for a hardier grass that will, you know, come back into what will regenerate that area quicker. I think I'll be more inclined because obviously that's the biggest space. So that will still allow for a lot of people to come into the gardens and use that just for leisure purposes, while that can obviously go on that smaller space. That's more comfortable. I have two questions really looking at that now I'm wondering, is it possible would this be able to operate on wet days, because people are always saying they need something to do when they cannot go to the beach. And my supplementary question is if businesses involved are keen on this. And I wonder this about the Christmas market as well as how much business. The actual shops get that are here all year round. Are they really keen on the Christmas market and these events going on the park, or does it, does it take business away from them in some respects. Thank you. In terms of the wet weather. So from the artist impression, it is quite difficult to see, but they're covered that is there would hopefully provide that ability for use during wet weather. But hopefully our summer is going to be lovely this year and that won't be an issue. In terms of the wider impact on the town centre, for this event in particular, it is a trial event and that would give us the ability to understand through the local bit in the town centre and the coastal bids to get some feedback to see what the impact and feedback from the shops has been. Certainly during the Christmas period and their Christmas tree wonderland, the bids have been supportive of that event because of the numbers of people it brings into the town centre, but this would be the first time we would have seen this sort of event in the garden. So we would need to understand the impact or get afterwards. And I just wondered if we had, if you had looked at having it in the, they already the same site as the winter wonderland, as I say, if that grass is already in that, you don't like that idea. Now I'm just thinking, you know, as suggested, if we have one bit of grass that's really not in bad in not in good condition, then it seems pointless ruining another bit of grass, but. I just want to reiterate what I said earlier. We're here to protect the historic gardens. And if we're not going to do that, then you might just want to throw it over to the bench team and say, help yourself do what you want. This is just not in keeping with the historic gardens. Just in terms of understanding that so I mean obviously historically on the site where they're going to put it. There used to be an events tent there every year and events on that site and they've put a big tarpauling out and pin it down and that was that would be there generally from, well, for about six weeks over the summer so it's not. Yeah, so how does it differ from that just as well. Yeah, this is the gamekeeper or poach or turn gamekeeper, because I was responsible for that 10 in some years ago. However, I wasn't on the lower gardens trust board and didn't didn't take that into account in those days so I just maintain that how job on this board is to protect the historic gardens. I was just going to go back to the point you're making about why the area we did talk about the ice rink area. And we were just sent just at that point, it's starting to look good again, the grass is just coming back through and then to put some straight on it, and then it throws on another question which is who's paying for the repairs to that area. Are the ice rink kind of for the bill when they say well hang on a minute, we didn't do that complete damage to that area. You've had another event on there. So we did, we did talk about that and that's why we looked to the other area further down. We did talk about some other areas as well, but that in the gardens there the two we've looked at really. Yeah, I especially wouldn't be here for not because it could get into an all day debate about our rates on debt trouble. It's just to ensure the provision of open space and public building for the purpose of recreation and enjoyment of the public. So I'm just thinking in terms and considering it's going to be aspect of three events to this as well. I mean, it does, it does sit within that as board members. I don't want to think if I agree to this I've somehow betrayed. The gardens, which would be because I don't see that as the case. If if the board if the board says to go forward with that because obviously. The majority of it is maintained for everyone can still walk through there. There's still lots of space for people to enjoy and just putting. Okay, I know I could say occasional then, but if you if it turned into like two big events a year, but there's still. It's still there for. You know, for purpose of recreation recreation and enjoyment of the public and as long as we build into that. You know, free events and discounted events and things like that. I don't see that as being contrary to what we're trying to achieve it because over time. How people want to enjoy, you know, spaces and recreation time changes and we just. We're managing of that within. You know, the time we live in it. Yeah. Thank you. I was going to make some, some of the point I was reflecting on what Lawrence was saying about alternative venues and within the town center we've got the with the winter garden site. You know, if we had more time, there's something about these are a better side that we can think about imagining and nivening for the benefit of this sort of event, rather than, rather than the grassy area of the gardens. But I think we can't keep everything in aspect on the basis of his story. There's historical things that cease to happen or cease to continue to exist. So we have to think forwards. And I think as Jamie said, there is a real benefit to the public in having something off the beach in the nice part of the gardens. To do on a rainy day when they were they were not in the smooth. So I think there is value to this in terms of in in terms of that. And as you suggest, poetry turns gamekeeper, we have to try and think in the round of how we sustain the gardens going forwards as a place of people to take pleasure, which is it's probably. I think also just building on from that. If you look at the, you know, in terms of the garden, in terms of the grass, if you want, if the only objective of his committee was to say, okay, let's, let's get the grass up. And pristine where you could say, well, you go back to go back 80 years and put little signs up saying nobody's allowed on the grass. And you can only translate along the path along the stream. And the grass would grow up a lot, lot more quickly and would be. You wouldn't get those little, little permissive paths that cut the corners and things like that. And in terms of the enjoyment of the part, there is an area that people will be able to sit down. You know, and there will be an area to skate. I'm just wondering how the free events will work and how much. And if they have a proposal has a bill, a business plan. And how they're going to make their money if they're going to be giving free events to schools. And because the schools beyond holiday, is that actually going to work, or is this something that's been put in there to make it look good for those of us who want people. Yeah, that would be my concern. I like the idea of free events because I know how much everything costs and families, you know, they, you know, it's 16 pounds for four ice cream. So, you know, it's so would be, but I'd like to know how more about that. And if we do agree it for a year, I think we should all for a trial period. We should all be down there checking out if it has lived up to its promises. Thank you. So the operator as part of their event planning, the majority of the events that will take place will be ticketed for capacity issues and making sure that that could be managed. But within that they will be offering free elements to certain groups that in, I think, in the reported talks about local schools and hospice charities. So at the moment, they will be working through that as a business as to how they will actually operate that. But it just to be clear, it won't be free activity for all through this event. Just to move this forward, I'm going to propose the, the, that we accept the recommendation of officers on this welcome with people want to put caveats on that and, and second, I'm very happy to discuss those but I was, I just feel just to move it forward. Because I believe that it is within the context of the lower guns, it does provide a meanity, and it does provide, and there are sight and grass protections within within that which do seem quite balanced in terms of the amount of amenity that this event will provide We need to do our screw to me on the event over the summer, though, in my case that will probably not involve skating on that. So, if I got a second for that at all, or somebody who wants to do. Have a second. Thank you. Could I just double check that that is based on the original locations and not the ice cream one, but the one that we showed on the map. Okay. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. The next item on the agenda was a request by the board to come back to consider the planting, the gardens. So, as the board has previously been advised, the council has moved to a perennial planting method across its parks and open spaces. This was done as part of the budget setting process in February 2023, and has been rolled out across all of our destination parks, including lower central gardens. This aligns with the council's climate and ecological emergency declaration, and it's commitment to move to more sustainable planting. We have previously looked and indeed the board challenge, but we cannot find any formal legacy council, or even within BCP council. Planting policies. So, as I said, it's previously taken as an operational decision within that. And if you look at the form of borough act 1985, it does state that the council may purchase or require botanical specimens and exhibits. So, this is, again, lines with the thought that this was an operational decision to do so. To add some further detail that many of the board members will be aware was it in December 23 decision was taken to family cease the operation of the plant nursery at King's Park, while seeking to secure alternative community uses for that site. Prior to the planting season in February 23 the nursery site did provide subsidized plants to lower central gardens. And within the report I provided some early pictures from last summer, following the change in planting. Since this time, the planting continues to establish itself, and Chris's team have been working to ensure that that it's further enhanced as need be and as they learn to work with the with the planting measurement that's been introduced there. And over the, was it the autumn, Chris, further ball planting was undertaken and there's a commitment to further planting in spring 2025 and in preparation for that. But it was really just open up. Hence, I bought my colleagues with me who maybe have to answer some more questions around that and if the board want to consider how they may like to see further planting achieve further planting within the gardens, noting that as within my Council revenue budget, I do not have the funding to be able to put further plants in there to then charge to the trust. Thank you. Just before we come to those just one quick application on the, you talked about the report is about 5000 additional bulbs going in. There's quite a big difference between 5000 crocuses and 5000 daffodils in terms of the bulk rough idea of the split. No, I haven't got to figure it out. It was a mix to make it wasn't 5000 of each. No, no, 5000 or everything it said. Yeah, that was clear. I wasn't sure what was planted. So, thank you. The pictures are lovely. And, you know, to be congratulated. Thank you. I wonder if it's possible that the board could informally during the summer. We can go out with with the team and have a look and see what you're doing and what you've done. And then we can, in the autumn, in the next meeting, we can then discuss it in more detail. I mean, on the face of it looks a lot better than I thought it would But I wanted to say yes. Thank you. Absolutely, your pleasure. Okay, so in terms of any more comments in terms of the planting. Yeah, thank you so much for everything that's done. I wouldn't have a couple of days going into looking very not quickly in terms of the bedding. So are we happy to accept the planting as it stands. Is that fine. Yeah, I suppose it and somebody gave me seconds it. Are there any objections? No, but just to give some reassurance that we continue, we'll continually monitor it and adapt as we learn and as Chris team. Watch it flourish. So we moved on to point seven future meeting dates and the and the program for a meeting up. So if we got any. Do you want to come back to us with some potential dates for that. Yes, absolutely. And potentially coincide it with the skate activity so that you can see for yourself actually the impact it does or doesn't have on the garden so that if we come back for the future proposal, they will be best informed. And yeah, my August time, assuming, assuming the event does go ahead as as an agreed. But yeah, we will look to get something like we should need to get something in the diary. And that's upon next meeting, but we've got another future meeting, probably coming up as well. There was. Yeah, I was just going to give. Yeah, I was going to just to give an update because you may be approached the public toilets are regrettably suffering from increasing amounts of anti social behavior. And my colleague, Matt is working with the police community safety teams, and the public conveniences contractors to look at what the options are there. It's very difficult because radar keys are very well used and circulated now. So potentially not the solution, but we do think we're going to need to look at some new technology to secure the, particularly the changing places facilities for genuine users to avoid them being continually attracting the anti social behavior that we have. But there is active work in that area so hopefully by the next board can bring you back further information on that. But if any member of the public are finding them in to be a condition that they shouldn't otherwise be then, you know, just report it through. And we've increased the cleansing visits there to monitor it. Graffiti removal, Chris's team are very active through the gardens at the moment in preparation for pairing them for summer influxes. And so I think where you are now Chris, you want to give an update. We've pretty much gone through. There was a bit of a hold up because of budgets and mainly on buildings to be most but now building maintenance budgets being re unfrozen. So there's been a lot of graffiti cleaned off buildings, but we were painting over things on the bandstand and it's that off peak period when there's less people in the gardens. And decent pop up, but they're looking a lot better now so we've done lower we're going into central now and it's things like the old photo booth in central garden and things like that they're getting them. Sanded and stained. And then moving on to litter bins, just to keep the board informed. If you walk down the gardens at the moment, you'll see a mix of compaction bins and the large 1100 litre bins that were there. The contract for the compactor bins has come to an end. They had mixed success, but are now in a very poor condition and need to be removed. The council is looking to bring forward a litter bin policy. Across the connovation we've got over 3000 bins of various shapes sizes and conditions. And so we're looking to produce a policy going forward that will standardize those types of bins. So for an interim period based on the success of the 1100 litre bins being provided within the gardens, which is really helping manage the capacity issues and enabling us to empty the bins more frequently. Through the general waste collection vehicles rather than the handballing that Christmas team of historically had to do, the proposal is to remove the small number of compact bins that are still in the gardens and continue with the 1100 litre bins. And then we will review it throughout this summer to see whether we have caused ourselves an increased littering complaint. We don't concern, we don't believe we will, but we will actively monitor it. And what a wait while we bring forward the wider council list of bin policy to see what that looks like for the gardens with Ian's team in particular looking at subterranean bins as part of a future solution for some of our destination parks and our high streets. So that will form part of that policy. We hope to bring that forward potentially to cabinet towards the end of this year. And so I will inform how that goes forward next year into the gardens. So, I've never been a fan of those massive big really bends, they look so ugly, people are putting every I mean this household waste in them everywhere, not just in the lower gardens, and nobody seems to be recycling anymore. You know, there's no difference differentiation between recycling bin or waste bin. And they're so hard to, I mean, they're really big ones are impossible to move so if you wanted to move on to an area where, because people don't seem to want to walk on, you know, 10 feet to an empty one and all their stuff all around the full one. So the new bins, would there be any more attractive, or is there, are they going to have any feature that will make people want to be recycled. And the gardens doesn't currently have recycling opportunities within it, but that's definitely something we'll be looking at through the little policy in terms of what can we do where we do have recycling, for example, along the seafront at key locations, it is always a difficult judgement on the contamination that we get in the recycling bins because as you say people will just go to the nearest bin, whichever it is, whether it's records or recycling but that's definitely an ambition to have more on street recycling across our open spaces. And the 1100 litre bins we will be working with planning colleagues to see if we can make them more attractive and house them potentially behind some wooden units, but that's an ongoing piece of work. We do agree they're not, they're not the most attractive bins but they are functional. In other areas where you have it. Totally. And then you have kind of when you have loads of them it's like Ben City. And that's all you see. And I know we need, we need to put to places to put the rubbish but yeah. We're not, we're not Chris correct, I'm wrong, but I believe we're not intending to increase the number of 1100 litre bins that you're currently seeing in the gardens when you walk through. And you're looking to rehouse the bins by BH. And at the moment, at the moment you've probably seen, they come out the gardens and get swapped for empty ones and they sit by BH 2 and it looks awful, because there's just a big row of bins and if you're sitting having a meal in BH 2 you're looking at horrible bins. The proposal, one of the proposals, one of the things where it's moving around so extra into a little lane there and actually building a little compound in that area where it's screened off. A, it'd be easier for our, for our guys to wheel them there because it's on the flat, not going up a hill, which is also a bit of an issue for us at the moment. But with the gardens, as we're coming into the decent weather, they're the only bins that can take that kind of capacity of waste. We found with the big bellies, we were hoping that they're the compacting aspect would answer this question it hasn't. And it's, it's a huge problem we were entering them up to five times a day in the summer, and they still had problems. And we had to bring the euros in to take cope with that extra number, and they don't look nice. That's why I think there's some kind of screening around them. It could be much nicer than it is at the moment. Yeah, just with regards to graffiti removal and the agreement from utilities assets. So is that. Oh, we just got permission from the utility companies to paint their cases. It depends which bits and some bits we will just do. If we see, for example, where the other buses ticket offices in central gardens, for example, there's a little substation that when the treaty goes and that we will just send it and stain it. We won't ask them. We won't contact us just quicker. And it gets done. If we ask them, it can take quite a long time, depending on the company. So sometimes it's just quicker to do it rather than chase emails that same. Just another on another point, we are talking with the probation service about introducing a scheme where they might be able to come in and do some of this aspect to help us along as well. And tomorrow at the Thursday, BCP are running a litter pick come all kinds of cleaning in the around the central gardens. So, and I've signed up for that. So, anyone wants to join me. That would be lovely. Yeah, that's correct. It's a day of action. All of those items were just been noting. Thank you. Looking at the date for the next meeting. We usually hold one before the January meeting, don't we? So the January meeting is for the sounds somewhere in between that. Yes, the next meeting day is on the 2nd of December. And then the 2nd of December. Yeah. And then we've got the one in January, which is on the 27th of January. That's the formal walk around for doing what we must do. Yeah. So, we're all good to close the meeting, so anything else you need to go? Yeah. All good. Yes. Raise it in the meeting, maybe after it's might be more suitable. I could have raised it in. Sort of matters arising from the minutes. It's just with regards to the art to make its market. I don't know if I was down there on Saturday speaking to. The artists for a couple of hours. This seems to have been a few few issues there. So I don't know that's something the board can just. Speak with the officers about about how that's being managed currently and going forward. Because it just is people done it. It seems to have been a fair amount of time. I know we had to be in my exchange whereby the teas and sees on the website was slightly different to what they expect them to be. But seems that they obviously accurate in terms of the reality. But there are other concerns there. How this current system is ongoing. So I don't know about something that I know the board has already said. We've handed out over but whether it's just like a conversation we have. Or maybe we can sort with the artists themselves. So just to clarify, is this something which is like an emergency that needs because everything sort of. I was under understanding that everything was sort of resolved a little bit for this year. Is this an emergency needs to be sorted now? Or is this something which would fit nicely into December so that next year we do it better. Suppose it would depend on the timeline of the tendering. And. How long this interim period is going to last. Thank you. I'm happy to have a conversation. I know Helen's been in contact with you as well and some of the operational concerns you've got and we can make sure that we can move forward with that quickly. And then maybe the longer term review we could bring an update to you and the next meeting. I'm full of that. You were nodding. So we're going to accept that. But yeah, obviously any issues. Different subject, cheekily, not on the agenda, but whilst everyone's here. Tell me to bring up about the next meeting if you want to tourist tax. I understand that that tax will help towards some of the things that we offer the public in baldness and therefore potentially the accounts for the trust is. I don't know, hence I ask. Thank you. So there is an accommodation bid board who are overseeing the accommodation bid. They will decide through the mechanism that they get set up what their income that's generated from that would support. So I'm not able to comment on exactly how that may impact the finances of lower garden and stress board. Maybe that by the next meeting there could be an update on that because I know the ballot has only recently been completed. So in terms of bid generally the people who pay into it tend to. Or the people on the board tend to decide where it's going to be spent and then the other people complain that they haven't listened to but that's how a bit generally works as my experience of it. We have a good after meeting, well done. Sorry, just one more thing just to make sure we're legitimate because the agenda. I meant to raise that we're going to meet and I completely forgot the agenda one and two reference to the first meeting of the 2425 municipal year. That means the 2526. Yeah. I'm done.