Transcript

Good evening and welcome to the evening, this evening's, sorry, good evening and welcome to this evening's Adult Social Care and Health Services Scrutiny Subcommittee. I am Councillor Annie Gallop, Chair of the subcommittee. This meeting is being recorded and is being broadcast live. The recording of tonight's meeting may also be used for quality and training purposes. We hope that everything runs smoothly. Please be patient if we hit some challenges in this hybrid meeting environment. In the event that technical issues require the meeting to be adjourned and it cannot be restarted within a few minutes, further updates will be posted on the council democracy's Twitter account or X, which is @lbldemocracy. Please note that the council has a duty to protect sensitive personal data. To ensure such information is not inadvertently disclosed, please avoid using full names or any other details that may reveal the identities of others. If you wish to discuss individual cases, there are other more appropriate avenues for this. Fire exit, exit the room from either door and then go up the stairs to street level. Toilets, there is an accessible toilet just outside the room. I have achieved apologies from Councillor Harris, Councillor McGivern and Councillor Swain Jamieson. Declarations of pecuniary interest. Thank you. Do any adults and health scrutiny subcommittee members wish to declare a pecuniary interest in any item tonight? OK, thank you. Next, we move to the minutes of the previous meeting of the subcommittee held on the 29th of July, 2024. No amendments have been received by Democratic Services. Are the minutes agreed? Now we move on to the first substantive agenda item, sanctuary seekers report, item 3 on the published agenda, pages 9 to 30. We will first hear from the cabinet members for Healthier Community, Councillor Windle, to introduce the item. I wonder which of the items it is. Apologies. It's sanctuary, sanctuary seekers, yes. So yeah, very happy that this is coming before scrutiny today. I'm glad that Lambdas was one of the first local authorities to achieve thorough sanctuary status. There was re-aggregation of that. Since coming to the cabinet after about four months ago, learning a bit more about this, I really think that Lambdas is one of the best places for sanctuary seekers in Lambdas. I think there's always more that could be done, and it's obviously going through a challenging time in their lives and challenging journey, but I'm proud of what we do in Lambdas. I recognise that all the work that we do and the re-accreditation of the sanctuary isn't just the council, but it's the fantastic network of technical organisations, partners, and also people with lived experience of sanctuary that we do all out of the organisation. So I know the committee is very interested in this and the request is self-evident. Thank you, Councillor Windle. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Windle. We've got the papers. Hopefully you will need to read it. I think just moving straight to questions is probably the way to go, but we do have a colleague who has also submitted a paper to the committee, I think. That's the SHP that was circulated today. So it's Monique. Yes, it is. Hi, there. Sorry? Yes, it is Monique. Yeah. Would you like to... were you going to read it out for the committee, or are we... I didn't have a copy of it with me. I was trying to download it off my phone. It's not happening. I've not talked to my laptop. Sorry. Thank you. Would you like me to read it out? Is that what you'd prefer? Would you like to hear it or... Or is it just questions about service? This is entirely up to you. You can either add to what you've written or if there's anything specific. I won't read the entire thing out. I think what I can highlight to the committee is I've been like a fresh set of eyes to the refugee resettlement service. I joined there in July, just taking over from previous management. And what's been really interesting for somebody who's not worked with that particular cohort of clients before is recognising the similarities and challenges as well that the clients do face. I've worked with vulnerable clients and clients of complex needs in other boroughs. I've come across from Westminster Council and working with their floating support service. So it's been interesting coming across and then working with the refugees in this service and seeing some of the similarities in regards to, for example, dealing with navigating a housing crisis that we've got at the moment and trying to find suitable accommodation for our clients that come in to the UK and getting them settled and reintegrated into community. And also the integration of understanding the benefit system, navigating that, especially with the language barrier as well. One of the things that I've seen that's been really, really helpful with this service is that prior to me stepping in, there was a recruitment run that went through looking specifically at someone who's got lived experience and also speaks the language of Pashto or Dari, which is spoken by people from Afghanistan. And that's been really, really helpful having that member of staff come in because there's been a lot more comfortability, I think, in regards to relating to the cultural things that the clients are coming across to the UK with and helping that meld with lifestyle in the UK. I think that's one of the things that clients find the most difficult to adjust to. And that's been really, really helpful to understand the insight alongside maybe the trauma and that lived experience that the clients are coming with, but just how they show up in the world and how that fits with our systems, our culture in the UK. I think that's been something that's really interesting to see the effect of that with the client work that we've been doing. I'm sure you've probably read this and seen the types of clients within the Afghan resettlement service, the clients that we work with, so single females as well as families that have been placed around around Lambeth. When working alongside Sanctuary, we're supporting females in an accommodation setting to move on successfully into their first independent living situation and set up. And that's actually been really, really good work in regards to the collaborative working that we're doing to really make sure that we're, from the very beginning, upskilling as much as possible, getting people linked in as much as possible, but also talking to people about what their lifestyle was like back in their native country and what they were aspiring towards and how we can try and match that in the UK, how we can match that with what we as a charitable organisation has at our fingertips to provide and where we can signpost other places that might have more funding as well, that can provide long-term education or more long-term employment or employability prospects. I think that's it. I think that's all I've got to throw on top of what I've got here written down. But if you have any questions, I'm happy to answer. Thank you. So I think that's entirely the point. I think as Tim alluded to, I think we should be just so far been proud of what we've achieved so far in Abbot. That's not to say that we are more striving to improve. I think it's just framed for us what we're wanting in a partner organisation, so to bring free to the economy, to refugees and sanctuary seekers in Abbot. I mean, it says here that you've got grant funding for £24.25. That likely to... We haven't heard anything yet. We've heard some things. So if I just explain a little bit about the grants. The previous administration designed different schemes for different nationalities and areas of conflict from those schemes. So you have an Afghan scheme, a Syrian scheme, amongst others, and then they termed all of them as safe and legal routes. That's the kind of those different cohorts and they funded those and also put different kind of restrictions on those groups depending on where they were from and at what time these incidents happened. So the funding comes through for those safe and legal routes groups, so for Afghan refugees, for Syrian and for Ukrainian. There's slightly more funding attached to the Ukrainian scheme, significantly easier, partly because that hasn't been adjusted from when it first started, when things were looking particularly desperate in terms of the numbers of refugees that might be away. So we're using that as much as we can in terms of the grant conditions to provide services for all of those groups and for wider communities as well. That's our approach. We have seen enough funding in place till 2025 and then we're in negotiations with social clear, part of the communities and the home office around where they're going to fund these things in the future. But no, nothing official is coming on them. Right, yeah, look at quite a lot of things I suspect, yes, we just don't know yet. Yeah, I think what we do have is there is a commitment to things that are in a clear and transparent way. Does anyone have any questions? Oh, sorry, I forgot to say, yes, I agree. I think it's something to be really proud of to have this service and from what I've read, it's comprehensive, it's understanding and I really get how much difference it makes to have somebody who is from that background and speaks the language. It must make a huge difference to the team and the clients, so that's great. I'll just have a quick look through me now to see if I've picked up, sorry Ayla, Councillor Attenborough. Yeah, unless you were... No, no, it's fine. I guess I'll go to Tim. So I read about how the home office has got a plan to procure houses and flats in Lambeth to accommodate 800 plus asylum seekers. Obviously, we've got a bit of a housing crisis in Lambeth ourselves. If that's something that we're pushing back on or what's also our opinion on that as an administration? I could give you an answer, but it definitely wouldn't be as informed because officers might defer to officers on that. So I think across London there are significant concerns about capacity in being able to respond to what are not definitive home office numbers at this stage, but an indication of what they would be proposing. Their intention is to reduce the number of people that are located in hotels. Part of that is to try and find properties within London and beyond to accommodate the asylum seeker community. My understanding is that asylum seekers prefer to be in housing rather than hotels. It's often quite unpleasant to stay in a hotel, not being able to cook yourself in quite limited space, so it's not a bad idea in itself. I guess maybe that's something we could seek funding on because it's a good thing. It's just like we don't have much housing. They might as well use the home office that would be funding that themselves or looking for it. We've been quite successful in providing information once someone gets their status confirmed, but that's a steady flow of it. What we are playing back with the OGA is that you have to do this in collaboration with local properties and local communities in a way that will work. If you just impose then you're likely to have poor outcomes, I suppose, so we're being very loud about our view around it. We're happy to help join in. It's the right thing to do. It has to be proportionate. As you say, I guess a sort of transition from hotels or experiencing hotel accommodation, I don't know if Monique might have some suggestions? Yes, so our service at SHP, we would step in when someone's got under legal status and are able to move out of the hotels into an accommodation. For example, with Evolve, that's one of Monique's properties. We get single females that are moved there once they have their status and we would work with them with just upskilling, plugging them into employment training etc. Then we're looking around a procurement element to the role. We're looking about private rental accommodation, seeing what's best suited to them, what's in Lambeth but also outside of Lambeth. We're very open and clear about the fact that we need to look further afield for accommodation, to be realistic about being able to have successful move on. That does work pretty well. It works well with families as well. When we're really transparent from the beginning, by accepting this is what's going to happen next. You're absolutely right that people do prefer to have not being a hotel and being in an actual accommodation because people have moved around so much. I think we can lose sight of the fact that people have moved across the globe, not just from one country to the UK. So they've had a lot of move, a lot of change and being in a hotel is still unstable and they're very well aware that that's not going to last forever. So I think as long as someone knows that they're going to go to this place and this can almost be like a forever home, that is really, really good for someone's mental space in regards to their move on process and their engagement in that process. We then do see successful move ons in that way once we find somewhere good for someone to settle. It seems to me it feels safer as well because we're on the right this summer and if you're in a hotel, you feel a lot more vulnerable. Reminded me again is Evolve, what used to be the YMCA in Stockwell, which I visited. As I've said before, I was so impressed. One, that there's social areas so people can mix. It feels, and the provision of moving into a room that's already got the kettle, the microwave, the bedding, everything there, I just think is fantastic and so important to make someone feel at home. I think it's an amazing place. What's really good as well in regards to the provisions, at SHP we're really plugged into the community so we're able to get hold of small grants and things from different charities so we can help to bolster some of the things that people don't get right away. We can help them with getting those things and making them feel at home and comfortable as possible. Not just grants around white goods, but we have grants around ETE, so employment training and education grants that help with things like laptops, phones, things that help people to plug in and be a little bit more available in bars of studies if we need to do things remotely that's a massive thing, especially in families as well where they've got their children going to school. A lot of stuff like homework and things need to be done on a laptop. We're not so much pen and paper as we used to be so it's really really helpful being able to know what's available in the community, to be able to plug people into that and have all those things set up really quickly when they move in. It just feels like a homely space, much more than a hotel would. Definitely. Yeah. Okay, does anyone else have anything? Yeah, I was just going to ask about the comparison table of asylum seeker numbers when you compare say Sulloch, Lambeth. I was curious, is there any indication of why Sulloch say they seem to have a lot more, they have something like 2,300 odd asylum seekers compared to only about 600 odd in Lambeth? Is there any kind of indication, it seems that Sulloch are taking on a lot more of that work than say Lambeth? What I can say is that the distribution of hotels is entirely in the hands of the Home Office and they would inform us about where these hotels are after they've been sentenced to contact you. There's no debate, as far as I was aware, with local authority, how they were initiated. Often they were, fair to say, having to act very quickly as well, so it's at a pace. That's how you've got this kind of unequal distribution. There have been attempts to reconcile some of that over time, so I think Greenwich, for example, had significant numbers of hotels which were available for office occupation. Lady Cairns and some of those was the first one because they were geographically quite a difficult place within the borough to access services, but also disposition. Imagine that some of those boroughs may be the ones where they would be trying to press their funds. Hi, we have a question from Fanella. It was just in response to that question in regards to Suffolk, because Suffolk has the core IA accommodation, it has had for many, many years, so they already have core IA accommodation, there's two sites in London, Croydon and in Dulwich, so they already had established asylum seeking accommodation prior to the hotels having to come on. So they, by default, have already got a larger population. They have a place in which is in what they call core IA. It's core accommodation, it's been in existence, it's not a hotel per se, it's rented. It's in East Dulwich, it's been there, to my knowledge, since 2012, something like that. How many units would that be then? At least 36. That's family units, so there's, yeah. Thank you. Just one more thing. I'm just wondering about the resettlement psychological therapeutic service, so I'm just wondering if that offered PTSD, in my experience as a therapist, that's kind of a very sort of, especially complex PTSD is kind of a big issue that refugees and asylum seekers present with, so I was just wondering if that offered that. Yeah, so it is offered, but it's, my understanding is it's, if there is a refugee or asylum seeker who is in crisis, so it's going to be a psychotic episode, they're not equipped to deal with that sort of intense response, so then they'll be referring to emergency services or other specialist psychological services. But in terms of, what we call step two and step three, anxiety, depression, PTSD and other sort of things like OCD, social anxiety, health anxiety, that's... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if you want to speak a little bit about the, yeah, the workshops that they've started. So we've just recently, I recently got in touch with the Refugee Council, so I'd met them at a different event a couple months ago and got talking and realised that they actually do have a therapy side of their provision and we've started doing workshops for our clients that are based around wellbeing and counselling as well. We recognise that a lot of conversations around mental health, physical health, is there's a lot of stigma around that type of conversation culturally, so a lot of people do not come forward and talk about anything that might be going on for them. So we started having what we call closed workshops, so the clients are like left with the therapist to have these like confidential spaces and safe spaces to have these conversations about mental health, physical health, wellbeing, things like good sleep health and like good nutrition, all these types of conversations and through that avenue, if someone feels like they would like counselling, they're allowed to kind of self-refer and then let their support worker know that they're going to be speaking with that person and they can have continuing rolling sessions. If someone does happen to have a moment of crisis, just like Ed said, our general pathway with that is getting emergency services involved and then kind of roping in the counsellor to have a conversation when they're a little bit more stable and then we're able from that point to make an assessment as to whether we need more specialist mental health support in place or whether that person can kind of tick along with more regular check-ins. So we kind of do it person by person really. I do think maybe a bit more connectivity with mental health services would be useful, but we'd have to do it bearing in mind that it's quite a sensitive subject for our refugees really because they've not had an open and safe space to really discuss mental health or anything like that. So as long as there's room for that dialogue as well, I think it would be a good thing to consider trying to have some closer link up with mental health services for them. So we are working closely for our integrated commissioning arrangements with David Olicoyer around making sure that we've commissioned the right level of support around that mental health support. And then one of the other plans that Ed and colleagues came to start going around to the Departments and the Council about looking at the action plan for next year. One of those in terms of integrated health is about how do we make sure that GP surgeries have good access routes in sanctuary seekers around the circle I suppose. I have one question. It was just when people are wanting to move out of the borough or move away from London, do you find that groups of people who've made friends or want to go together? Yeah, we have had people that have kind of made friends and they're like we want to move in like a shared place together where possible we can try our best with that. It depends on what their move on route is. It's not always possible, but we totally hear that and we'll do our best to flex around that when we're looking at private rented or shared accommodation, we can see what is possible out there for someone. I think it's easier when we're casting it wider outside of Lambeth and further around. It makes it easier to have more options. I kind of meant maybe the same town or the same town. Oh yeah, I've had people that want to literally live in the same building as they've become really good friends. But yeah, it's easier if it's the same area or something like that, then you're more likely if we're going through an estate agent or something finding numerous properties in an area. And these are normally majority private rents. Said that there was a decrease in home office and that's reversing, so you've only just started to see an increase in the number. How much roughly? Who's asking this question? I think due to the election, when the election was called, we know there was a slow in case void reviews, so the substantive interview slowing down. And the number of people moving in and out of the hotels obviously didn't change. But three months ago, I think we were around 400 people in the hotels and now it's on just over 500 people, an increase of about 100. OK, and so they're getting clearance, they're waiting. So they again, it is picking up, so we work very closely with Catholic L.A. in the hotel. They have a great relationship with the residents as do we and they've let us know that substantive interviews are picked up again and we, I think, I don't know if it's in the paper, recently employed a sanctuary housing officer dedicated to supporting groups that are coming out of the hotels and he started, his work has started picking up, completing interviews with those non-priority and priority groups coming out of hotels, making sure they have a move on. Just over the last few months, I think we've seen an increase primarily of single men in the assignment seeking population living in the hotels, which can present a challenge down the line whether to get the housing requirements, et cetera. So it's the same for single men who come here as it is for single men who are here already, which is pretty... Yeah, it's age related as well, so if you're 35, you're entitled to a lower rate of housing benefits support and therefore accessing move on accommodation is incredibly difficult. Yeah. So that's, yeah, we've got various ways of help with that as much as we can, but it would be the one change that maybe, maybe the government may be considering but not truly. How would you like to see that policy? I'd like it to be fair and not based on an age bar. I'm not sure, but anyway, I probably said enough on... Okay, sorry. I'd be leading you probably. Okay. There was just one other thing I was saying about a few local authorities have been invited to participate in a place based hosting exercise by the Home Office and Ministry. Who are the other local authorities? I think there's, this is a bit, they're UK wise, I think there's... Oh, okay. So they're not comparable necessarily. Some of them might be comparable. It's based on a Home Office formula that they chose, not to share the reasons for that. They're currently engaged in that exercise at the moment. What are you hoping the outcome could be? We hope the outcome will be a kind of fair distribution of funding across the different cohorts. Yeah. The Home Office actually and the Department of Humanities and Local Government get a good understanding of the costs, the costs of services that local authorities incur. Yeah. And we found that it was important that the colleagues here were part of those discussions and that when the ask came out for local authorities to join in, so to be in the room and try and help us to keep you in the positions. Yeah. Thank you. Does anyone else have anything to add? Okay. Thank you. Yes. Sorry. Last thing. The colleagues would just like the community to know about the events that are happening. If you've got a flyer or something I can get that circulation for the community. Aisha and Chris can tell you about their work. Fabulous. Just to say that generally it seems like you did really great work. You too. Yeah. No. Absolutely. So this is supposed to be producing recommendations, this item, isn't it? Yeah. It's not promoting, is it? No, it can do. I mean, even if it's promoting, you can put forward recommendations. Have you got anything you'd like to put forward? I mean, you don't have to put them on. You don't have to, but yeah. Well, I think what I can, you know, what really sort of to support what's needed and to, trying to think of the words now. Anyone could think of anything that you want to sum up what you may want to. Chair, you could write to the Home Office. Yes. That's something I was guessing at and have some more funding for specific areas or just in general. Yeah. And have more. Yeah. More information about how much. Yes. What they're going to be doing in Lambeth and yes. So we could write in support and to the Home Office and request more information. Yes, Chair. If the instruction to colleagues is to work with Castle Windle, Castle Ayrton and the forum structuring that we can draft in collaboration with officers. And to explore more funding for like mental health issues, especially PTSD and complex PTSD. If I could suggest, because that's not actually within our funding gift, it's funded by the health service. But what we could do is pass the committee's views to the colleagues in the ICB and report back once they, so they're just looking at going to contact you at the moment, perhaps if we let you know what, what's there for them. OK. Everyone OK with that one? Well, thank you, everybody. It's. Keep up the good work. Thanks for coming. I now move on to the next item, item number four on the agenda, which is healthy homes. So we now move on to the Healthy Homes report, item four on the published agenda pack pages 31 to 100. We first hear from the cabinet member for one of the cabinet members for Healthier Communities, Councillor Windle, to introduce the item. I think Councillor Windle probably isn't planning to introduce this one, so I'll do an intro, unless you have anything specific. Outside of the Healthier Communities brief. So the context of this coming here was that the committee, I know we're interested in a community relationship between health and housing. Now there is a housing sub committee already, which does quite a lot of scrutiny of some other things as well, but the housing and health bit specifically did come to the Health and Wellbeing Board back in February as part of our wider Health and Wellbeing strategy. There is a component of that which is around health and housing and you might just talk that in a bit. So what we have done is brought the paper that went to the Health and Wellbeing Board, which was around our healthy homes partnership and various pledges that were made by some of their partners and sort of update to what's happened since then. Now Barry's here from our housing team and can talk a little bit about some of those updates and progress on that. The other specific request was for a update on how we're doing in relation to performance on damp and mould. So I have got those performance figures, so I'm happy to share them with the committee as well. And there's clearly, from the conversations we've had, a much wider interest in, I think, the whole area of the impact of homes on health and it's a very well, you know, well documented issue. And we know that we've got lots of people in Lambeth who are living in accommodation, which probably isn't as good as we'd like it to be, it's not as quality we'd want it to be, both privately as well as some of our own properties that we're doing a lot of work to try and get up to a good standard. But the work that, and I think the huge amount of work actually that's happened over the last year probably, particularly in relation to damp and mould and the improvements we've seen there will make a real difference actually to people who are in our own housing properties. Maybe just before I hand over to Bibbety and then Harry can answer any particular questions. I could note if you go through housing scrutiny as well, we'll come back to you, but specifically if you want to alert the Chair of Housing Scrutiny to, then obviously we can do that and then they could be raised through housing scrutiny and equally at some point we'll come back to the households who are not being bored because it's part of that mapping strategy. Just in relation to our damp and mould, so we look at our average time it takes to re-retreat damp and mould. So in April this year, it was taking on average nearly 32 days to re-retreat damp and mould. That was in April this year, our target is 10 days, so we're trying to get to 10 days. So now in September it's standing at 19 days. So we've seen a significant improvement, but we are trying to get down to our target of 10 days. And in April it was 31. So we're certainly seeing an improvement and month on month we've seen that improvement and we'll continue to monitor that through the year and hopefully we can get close to our target. But there's a huge amount of work and you'll see within all the documentation the tools really which are used with our residents and tenants when teams go out, which help them and help us to work with them. So maybe if I can get Bimpi to come in and then, I think Barry wants to add and then we can take any questions. So good evening everyone. As Ruth mentioned, housing is a key element in the health and wellbeing strategy. It's very much part of our priorities in terms of having resilient communities. And over the last couple of years, we've continued to forge really good working relationships with housing and as you've already highlighted, the role of housing in terms of health is quite critical. We actually have as part of the NIHR HEART program, a researcher who is going to be working with the housing team exactly to make sure that as much as possible, we're maximising any opportunities around embedding health considerations in the work of housing. Another element of the work that has started to evolve over the last few months is some work across South East London, and this is being led as part of the South London Listens across South East and South West London. And we've been working with them in terms of identifying evidence of good practice across the country, actually, and trying to pull together some of the evidence around housing and health and how the NHS has worked closely with housing. And so across South East London, we are working with colleagues to look at ways in which we can use the NHS as an anchor institution in being able to create opportunities for housing. And that includes things like reviewing NHS land and perhaps having specific kind of land disposal policies that would benefit the community, but also looking at ways in which they can embed housing advocacy within health services. So that work has just begun, there are going to be a series of workshops over the next month or so, and we're fully involved in that and so really looking forward to how we can use some of that learning to inform the work we're doing locally. So I'm quite happy to answer any questions or pass on to Barry. Do you want to do questions now or should we listen to Barry as well and then ask questions? Yeah, if you want to go ahead, Barry. OK, I've got a quick presentation just on the background to the Healthy Homes Partnership. If that would be useful, you can put that up. This one? Yes, it will be in the in the pack, but yeah, run through that if you like. OK, do we need to go through it? No, only if you want to allow me to highlight some of the important parts of the partnership. OK, well, do you want to summarise what the important parts are? Sure, OK. Yeah, so the main the main aspects of the Healthy Homes Partnership is that it's our contractors, Council's housing team and residents coming together effectively to come up with a number of cornerstones and principles about what a healthy home is. So there are effectively four cornerstones that we established from a series of workshops working on this question. So the resident, neighbourhood, environment and home. And in terms of the principles of a healthy home and these to ensure that our contractors based their pledges on those four cornerstones, the principles that we established were having a my home mentality to a clean, safe environment, three, a joined up approach, four to ensure we get getting the basics right, five preventing and preempting, six championing championing residents priorities, seven supporting innovation, eight making sustainable choices and nine providing education and advice. So our contractors have created pledges based on those principles. So Community Works, NRT, OCO, Pinnacle, T Brown and Waits, they've all set them up. And as you can see from the report, they've been making progress on those this year. We've highlighted some of the key parts they made progress with there. In terms of next steps, we're holding an annual review in March, we're having, that's going to be led by our housing social value and innovation manager. In terms of some of the actions we're taking around healthy homes directly within the housing team, we've got pilots on at the moment with home sensors. So they help monitor lots of key metrics within the home, heat, moisture, etc. So we can understand whether there are conditions where you might get damper mould and residents have got an app which they can get alerts on. And we have a dashboard that we have access to that gives us alerts. So if there's conditions arising where could have issues with damper mould. So those pilots are ongoing at the moment, as you can see in the pack as well, a healthy homes action plan. So our surveys are using those and that ensures that we get to the root cause of the issue. So we've got to do a damper mould treatment initially to sort out any health risks posed by the damper mould, but we don't want it reoccurring. So the point of the healthy home actions plan is to evaluate, do an inspection and look at and agree with the resident and look at what interventions they will make. They could be improving the ventilation system, upgrading heating, larger radiators, moving the radiators or insulation, all those types of actions. So they're in use by the surveyors now and we've had some good feedback about those. So those are the main points I wanted to flag up. Thank you. I didn't want to have anything. Yeah, I guess it's kind of a bit of a mix, isn't it? Some of these people are contracting and some are kind of more estate agents or housing association. So there's some people we have kind of more power over, as it were, contracted. There's others where it's more like a kind of voluntary thing. We don't really have much power over those people. Is that fair to say? Yeah. So here we are. Well, yeah, I was going to ask something similar if I could just add on to that. So the registered providers are housing associations. Is this just for Lambeth social housing tenants, council tenants? Yes, the Healthy Homes pledges and the action plans are for Lambeth social housing tenants. In terms of the presentation in the pack, that was to the Health and Wellbeing Board and there was a question about what our registered providers doing in the borough. So we had an extra slide there just sort of detailing what sort of initiatives they were working through. Thank you. But with, I mean, with someone like Fortin, for example, someone who's a contractor to us, so we're inviting them to come up with pledges about what they're going to do to ensure healthy homes. But surely that sort of, for them, it wouldn't be like, it shouldn't necessarily be a sort of voluntary thing. It's like a thing of, well, you need to do this as part of your contract. So I guess I'm kind of, do you know what I mean? I'm not sure. Yeah, I can see what you're saying. So yeah, within the contract, there's a large element of social value. I think it's 1% of the value of the contract. So all our contractors have to deliver that aspect as well. Yeah, the Healthy Homes pledges is more around getting the culture of the organisation matched up with what we're trying to achieve. There are voluntary pledges, so it's up to the contractor to deliver them and move them forward. There's no, there isn't a sort of a contractual leave in there, but the contractors have signed up to them and they're keen to work to those principles. I think to be clear, whilst they're contracted to do the work, so to speak, what we're asking as part of this is to go above and beyond that and just to culture of the way that they work with our tenants and residents and I guess to sort of embrace some of those values, which is over and above, you know, effectively what we're contracting them to go and do, get paid to do, if you like, all the contracts. And also eradicate the culture as much as possible of blame. Absolutely. So it's a partnership, how do you work with tenants in a partnership rather than telling them they're doing something wrong in effect or it's their fault? Yeah, which is what's always happened for as long as I can remember. Mine are kind of, well, mine are probably more housing, so they're things I'd like to feed back to the housing committee, but I just wondered, we have, and I will say this because I am a tenant management organisation resident and we get a completely different service usually, so land with owned homes that are managed by tenant management organisations, what powers do we have to make sure that they're contractors and they're adhering with our values for healthy homes and respect for residents. Just in relation to that point, we have shared all the initiative around healthy homes with the TMOs and the team that work with them. So yeah, we've encouraged them to, you know, get involved and, you know, follow this initiative. OK, but there's no jurisdiction, there's no power to enforce when things aren't being done properly? Well, not in relation to healthy homes, that's a sort of voluntary initiative and yes, of cultural change really, which is over and above, you know, the contractual obligations. But depending on the work, sometimes it will be the same contractors? Yes, absolutely. So, you know, often it will be the same contractors, but it will depend on the sort of scale of the works and some of that. I just worry about, and this again is a housing thing, so I'm not aiming at you guys, but I'm worrying about how much voice the residents of the tenant management organisations would have and so therefore I've been thinking about this for a while and it may or may not work, but I'd like to suggest that the housing subcommittee considers getting some KPIs in TMO performance management that includes participation with residents, feedback from residents, feedback not on just the actions, but the interaction with residents and their governance and democracy. I don't know how, I'm just going to talk and then make up maybe. So like you said, we've got more jurisdiction on the council estates and we also have the associations that we have got good relationships with. What scope is there to do similar to the other providers that we use? Because I know it's a housing issue, but it's also like a social care issue. I was at the governance meeting at SLAM and they were talking about the financial constraints that the organisations is in and one of the biggest costs was of them having to provide outpatient accommodation for the patients that are released from the hospitals, but because those accommodations have to be CQC accredited, that was kind of costing them, so my student, they abandoned us and now they're just passing on those patients on to Lambert. So I thought like, so you're kicking the can out, the grass then, and that's because the hospital doesn't have legal work and we've got a health institution to make sure the places where we're releasing so and they said, oh yeah, maybe that's something you can bring it up and you can see. Does this fall? I think he likes one of us and I can tell colleagues along the side of the view, I understand more, so perhaps we could have a conversation on that side about what's being said. What do we have basically? I can understand there's something going on, but I can't quite work out what it is. Yeah, it felt a bit like floating. Andrew. Just to say, we get figures every single day, people being discharged from BAM wards. We have nobody today, delayed. No, no, there's no delay, it's them saying when they were, the cost of providing those hostels or accommodation to support people released from hospital, hosting, organizing so much that they had to stop doing that. So then they're just passing on the care of those individuals back onto the local authorities. So do we put them in our care homes or are there provisions that we...? This land covers a number of boroughs in South East London, so, as Andrew just said, non-Americans from Lambeth are looking for a commodity to be accommodated with their Lambeth's responsibility. We would work with them and discharge them safely and hopefully to accommodation once they came. If it had been something new, they would have been there. They're not Lambeth's responsibility. We wouldn't be working with them and we wouldn't do what they were. So let's talk outside because there's going to be some nuances to this, I think, that it would be useful to understand. So I think just to pick up on a slightly wider issue, though, I think, which is there is also selective licensing coming in for private landlords as well, which will give us a bit more oversight of what's happening in relation to private landlords. I went to Cabinet yesterday, I think. Yeah. I think part of the value of the sort of selective licensing is that it does enable us to have much better oversight and understanding of the quality of homes. And the impact of the sort of requirements and AWAB's law is that other registered social landlords will need to be paying attention to things like plant and mould. And the regulatory social housing also picks up that sort of thing when they do their inspection and also do take feedback from tenants. That's part of looking at tenant satisfaction measures as part of what they also monitor and that will be in relation to performance on repairs and other issues as well. So that all does get captured and anybody who is a social landlord will be having to collect that information and report it. I mean, I think that sort of underlines my concern and I would like to, when it comes back to housing subcommittee, ask what are the changes in AWAB's law and the social housing legislation that was passed in 2023, which I believe means that it gives more, you may know, I'm not saying you'll know the answer, it gives more transparency to PMOs and other organisations that manage properties on behalf of the local authority and they'd have to disclose more figures on damper mould, pests, et cetera, and things that aren't being done. It'd be nice to get some more information on that. So I suggest we do take it back to the committee, I think that's fine. And I mean, we do have... Because then it kind of joins up, I think. We have a relationship with our TMOs and to be honest, if there are big issues, people tend to complain instead of the council anyway, so we tend to find out. They get pinged back. Yeah, they do. Yeah. It goes dum dum. But we tend to be aware of their issues and any major work things are things that still, you know, the council is very involved in. And some of these issues are as a result of, in fact, we've got quite old housing stock that... Absolutely. [inaudible] ...work done, if you get to manage some of these issues a long time ago, as good as it could be, the standards that you'd build to today to manage some of these issues. So absolutely. Yeah, I think it'd be nice to get some information on those, our law and the social housing at the changes in the social housing at up to residents of Lambeth somehow on... Yeah. So it's a good point because I'm not sure what we've cascaded to residents. I don't know if Barry knows whether we've done anything directly up to residents already. Certainly, I think we've communicated very, very widely on the damper mould work that's going on and hopefully residents are aware of that and made it easy for them to report so that they can get a response quickly and I've seen the response is getting better. So I think that that is out there, but there's clearly still [inaudible] And I do think we can make officers aware as well that there is more, can be more robustness in asking for figures from the MO's information. Barry, want to come back in then? Yeah, I was just going to say, yeah, we're currently developing a resident's guide if they have damper mould, how to report it, timelines associated with treating, et cetera. So, yeah, that's in draft at the moment and we'll go back to residents with the draft and make sure they're happy with that before we publish that. That'd be residents of all Lambeth owned properties. Yeah. Including TMO managed. Yeah, I think we ensure that everyone's got access to that guide, yes. Thank you. Does anyone have anything else to add? This is for noting, isn't it? And I just think it's really good to, you know, recognise the effects on health and wellbeing and so I think that's great and I'm looking forward to seeing how it all develops. OK. Yeah, I guess just sort of really pledges that we can contract people to rather than just having them as pledges, that's better. Yeah, we could maybe put that to the housing subcommittee as well. Well, that's the rub, isn't it? That's where we squeeze out as much social value as we can, we use it as a sense to absolutely deliver. Yeah. Yeah, I absolutely agree, but I do think changes in kindness and niceness and no blame and do something about it, you know, will just make a difference. And that should absolutely be the blueprint we're working to now. And that is what we're trying to socialise with our contractors in the way that we do this year. I mean, I guess it's probably going to need to go out and assess whether we can give you an increase in agency, get that feedback as well. I mean, we could probably work to do that. Thank you. Now I can't find my script. OK. OK. So, the adult social care, yes, yes, that's the permitted powerpoint, isn't it? Permission was received in advance. So, yes, this is the CQC's assessment framework for adult social care services, which is new. It's started in 2023, so they will be assessed, and 14 of those are in London. I think we've been trying to make one exactly when this will get its notification, and now obviously there's going to be a close eye on the approach to those assessments and outcome of assessments. So, yes, I think we've been trying to make one exactly when this will get its notification, and now obviously there's going to be a close eye on the approach to those assessments and outcome of assessments and outcomes of assessments and outcomes of assessments and outcomes of assessments. So, yes, we've been trying to make one exactly when this will get its notification, and now obviously there's going to be a close eye on the approach to those assessments and outcomes of assessments and outcomes of assessments and outcomes of assessments and outcomes of assessments. Just a couple of images that I think bring this to life a little bit, as dry as it might sound. So, we're not overselling presentation. That's why I asked to have a few slides. Raised expectations. Are you happy for me to take you through the presentation? Absolutely. Happy to do so. There we go. I found it. I'm really hoping this is the latest version. I'm sure it'll be on the fly. We're about to find it. Please don't. It wasn't my fault, I promise. That's lovely. Thank you. Hold on a second. I will start. Let me just, I've got like a toolbar right at the top, then again. Right. Well done. There we go. Yay. If we can move on to the next slide, that's the first substantive one, which is just a reminder of where, which authorities have been notified that they are to be assessed. It's 43% of local authorities have been notified, and on the map, you can see the ones on the ones spread across the country. They are clustered around ICB areas so far, so they have done, now that we've set up these waiting airboards, yes, so they are in those clusters yet. They've just announced one over in South West London that's to be inspected, which is Kingston. So we're, it's a guessing game, there is no schedule, so we have no idea when we're to be notified. Only nine reports have been released so far, and that's nationally. Oh, nationally. There are only nine reports, so I think there's a number of areas that have had their assessment and are awaiting their reports. Next slide shows you the workstreams of how well they're passing our readiness for this, and we'll go through those, I won't list them on this slide, but this really has to go to each area. So it's self-assessment, that's the first workstream we've got, we have a self-assessment. We updated it in May of this year, but we're just doing a current refresh, which involves a raft of engagement with our key partners, with our staff, with our service users, just to make sure that it still reflects where we're at and where they think we're at. So we're embarking on that at the moment, with lots of engagement to check in with people as to whether it's still accurate. We have a service development plan, so that was produced to guide our work, where we felt we had areas that we wanted to do more to develop and get the best possible result possible. So we're working our way through that, two-thirds completed, and we're making good progress on that. We've got some more actions that we intend to complete by the end of this year, and we've given on the next slide an extract of the next two slides, some extracts of what we've done and a few of the areas that we're next going to be focused on, so next slide. So that shows, I don't know how good people's eyesight is, I know mine isn't that great, so between us we'll have to manage here, that shows that we have developed and implemented an appeals process. So obviously people were always able to make complaints, but we've now got an appeals process in place that people can use if they're unhappy with the outcome of their assessment or their review in particular. We've developed seven-minute briefings that report on key issues of learning, that's been aimed at improving staff practice so that we can learn from what our services are telling us. The transition service, I'm sure you've probably had information about our new naught 25 service for young people, so that's been consulted on and implemented. We've been working on the website information, so phase one was to make sure we reviewed it, that it was up-to-date and it was accurate, that we weren't doing anything too snazzy in phase one, we just wanted to make sure that the information on our website covered everything we think it should do, links were still active, it was as good as we can make it. We do have more ambitions to do more with the website, phase one was to make sure the information was correct. We've developed a house style which you'll be seeing in this presentation, so that yellow banner and our little turquoise technical brand in term is, but we have a strap line supporting inclusion and independence and that's to really give us a bit of a sense of we are adult social care, hopefully it might help with some of the information we send to our customers but certainly visually it's something we think is quite useful. We've been looking at some options appraisal for the reable service, so there's been a paper on that. The next slide sets out the work that we're doing over the next few months, so that's the development and ownership of my employment service and that's principally around adults with learning disabilities and also a review of the current spot contracts we have for day services and a supported employment offer and that also is with adults with learning disabilities and that is around making sure where people attend a day service for example, but actually that's helping them to move on to supported employment where appropriate and making those links with those schemes so it's not just sort of a day service for life type that we're able to make there since lots of work there. We're looking at developing an adult social care service operating policy, that's a bit of a dry inward facing thing but it's really to make sure we have consistency of processes so we want staff know exactly what to do in any situation. More outwardly facing is we're developing a new strategy for co-producing a strategy around EDI for people who use adult social care services. We have an existing strategy at the moment which is quite workforce focused and what we really want to do is look at the experience of people particularly those with protected characteristics to co-produce this with people and to work out what are the actions we need to take to make sure that our services are accessible on an equal basis to all of the community. We're particularly wanting to focus on ethnicity and sexuality as those are particular areas where if you expect to come into Lambeth and we're thinking what's Lambeth known for obviously we have a diverse community and the inspecting team will know that and also we do have a high percentage of LBGTQ+ communities in Lambeth so you would expect us to maybe be particularly good at working with those communities so we need to go out work with those communities to ask them. We do have lots of data at the moment but it's moving beyond the data. You do have data. If you want to move beyond some dry data, lived experience, exactly, it's asking that so what question. So we have the data, we know things, what are we going to do about it so we're trying to be quite ambitious in that area so that's a good action. We are at the beginning of that and it will take a bit of time to co-produce it properly. You can't rush something if you really need to talk to people and get into the communities but we're just starting with the working group and the steering group to guide that work so that's quite a big programme but something we're really really keen to do and we're also looking at improving our finance processes. We do know that our providers find some of our payment arrangements not as timely as they would like and not as accurate as they would like and some of our service users are perplexed by the delay in receiving their invoices, the information on the invoices and how we work with them so that's another really big area that is not quick to fix but we have plans in place to address those issues and try and make those improvements. So those are the key areas in our service development plan going forward. The engagement is the next work stream, we've got an engagement coordinator in post, we've been involved in a variety of community events such as the country show, the age friendly festival and such like so we're really trying to build on our work with our service users to learn as much as we can about their experience and carers as well and we've got a working group and engagement group that guides that. On communication and logistics that's where our house style and our new strap line of supporting inclusion and independence comes in and we have a communications and logistics plan ready so should CQC phone us tomorrow we've already got a plan saying right on day one this is what we need to do, day two this is what we need to do so that we can be organised and be ready when the inspection call comes. Information return and case tracking sample, information return is the evidence that CQC will ask us to submit so they've given us a list of what they will want and we're preparing it and keeping it up to date and ready, there is an awful lot of information that they want but we're ready for that and pretty well prepared. The one red we've got, I think next slide, the one red we've got is around our development of our EDI strategy so we've got all data we could give CQC if they come tomorrow but we feel we can go further than that but we've kept it as red. And case tracking which is very important, CQC we have to send them a list of cases of which they select a small number to look at in detail and they have to hit certain criteria so they want some cases that are supporting people with autism and ALDs, some for mental health or substance misuse etc through those categories there. We've been working on making sure we've got a good supply of cases that we've audited and feel that would be really good for them to look at and we're currently, in August we were up to 70 cases, they only were asked 50, they then select 10 of which they look at six, they hold the other four in reserve. That's the current process but we are aware CQC is reviewing going forward how they're going to do their case tracking but at the moment for the current arrangements we are ready with a good selection of cases for people to share with them to show them what we're doing. And the final one here is on government's data and performance so you have an assurance board that meets monthly, group chairs and we have a working group that also meets monthly. We have a waiting list dashboard that sets out how long people are waiting for key functions so how long people have been waiting for assessments, for reviews, the safeguarding concerns etc and we review that every month to make sure that we're hitting the time frames we want to and CQC also have various information they want on our waiting list so we've got that dashboard ready for that which we keep a close eye on. Risk management, really we've just identified some risks that we need to keep an eye on just to make sure that we're up to date so that we keep the data, we're making sure it's up to date, it's accurate, it's not got things in it that it shouldn't have. We are aware our direct payment performance is not where we want it to be, we've been doing a lot of work to increase our direct payments but that is a risk that we've identified. Finance and payment process that we've already talked about to an extent, covers those. Then key findings from CQC assessment so far, so six good and three require improvement so far. And that's the national one. Yes, and the sorts of areas where CQC are saying needs development is around accessible information and advice, timeliness of key functions, EDI, Ethnicity, Diversity and Inclusion is a big area that a lot of places haven't done that well or they felt that there could be room for improvement there, and carers, carers has been another area that CQC's been quite critical of some of these. Data benchmarking I think just to say the data benchmarking we have no nationally agreed way of gathering data, so the way Lambeth for example will assess how long someone is waiting for assessment may be different from the way we're around the country calculates it. There is no standard way of doing that yet which makes it a bit tricky for the judgments. So there is some work going on to try and standardise that which we and other authorities are involved in, it makes it quite subjective and Richard I know that's something you're passionate about. So we've reported me telling you, there's been issues that maybe they should have done before they started doing assessments, but there's an acknowledgement they need to do something and there are conversations I think the CQC have had it all as administrations have changed and they are in listening mode at the moment. I was on a call with them, I'm the director of social care, but these points are being made and they are not disagreeing just about then how do you line up and change and do that. This week we've had our principal social worker and safeguarding two separate meetings with CQC looking at their case tracking, how are they doing that as authorities have been feeding back. I'll just look at this is not a paper exercise, this is people's lives and actually we want you to look to our social workers and we want you to as well as reviewing the case file and to the person who lived experience, about us trying to help them do their reviews better. Just to show that I was good that's like when they're on the timelines, a lot of the delays is the workforce and that's kind of a national challenge do they take things like that into consideration. Not particularly, no, what they want to see is that you are managing your own time and you're whisking around waiting as well so our performance is, I'm comfortable with our performance and our wait times, our apparent median time of 20 days from 6, asking for median for which is the way to do it, wanting to see timelines appropriately and they want to know that we're checking those people as they come in, we're offering early reviews where the next urgent or the early assessments of some things are the truth. Yeah, it's about managing the risk, there's nothing in the legislation here that says you shouldn't have a waiting list, effectively, every authority I've worked with has a waiting list. Just that, I would say sometimes it can be quite heavy-handed and then it's hot down and just quite ultimate about knowing but not wanting to put into consideration what the pressures services are and start what, like meet reviews maybe, what timing might be there, but is there understanding? Yeah, I mean they would want to know what we were doing about it if we are struggling in a particular area and it does change, doesn't it, you do have events happen, struggle with something for a few months and you work out how you're going to do that correctly and that's what they want to hear us push. As much as recognition of something and then having that plan in place and if you haven't recognised it you are in trouble. We think we understand our service, we understand our population and we understand what we're good at, what we need to improve at, plans in place, we're enacting those plans. Yes. They're not plans that we just think have got them written down, they're ready to go. Has anyone on the committee got experience of CQC inspections? No, I can't say I have either, but I've been learning, I don't know how much people would be interested in or feedback on how it works. I mean not physically, but I've seen on the paper trail questions and on the kind of inspection that. The authority at the moment, they are interviewing chairs of scrutiny that could change the same light and everyone on the screen, three minutes, whatever, they dictate to the organisation what they want, thus far every time they've gone somewhere, they are the chair of scrutiny. When you're with a group, we can stand up any kind of meetings or briefings or discussions. I think it would be a good learning experience. Roger, of course, that could be with you and Tim perhaps? Yes, because there might be other things you want to bring in which are main things to scrutiny and a brief understanding of and things. Has anyone had anything more they want to? When was the last one again, 10 years ago? 2004. A long time ago. They stopped, they used to do them. They then stopped. It's a pretty rare experience for us. Then they moved it to an arrangement of self-assessment for psychotherapies by ADAS and the LGA. Last year, was it like a mock assessment? That's right, yes. Just to kind of get our heads back into this kind of thermal scrutiny space. And myself and Councillor McGivens, I've got a few things happening because tomorrow we're having an LGA peer review and that's something I haven't done before either. In the end, we could just catch you up on that. Sure. I've got to hang on, I've just got to sign the minutes so. I'm just going to be able to keep going. Okay, well thank you, I think that's noted and thank you for the presentation. Final item is the Action Stop report. We're asking for recommendations on this? I think that's just the standard. Okay. Is there anyone got any burning recommendations? I've got no idea, what time is it at the moment? It's past eight. So it's not guillotine time yet. Okay, cool. So the next item is the Work Programme. There's one slot that's become available in the February meeting. It's actually been moved to the 4th of March, I keep forgetting I do apologise, that's my permission on that one. So you've got the annual safe guardian report and then you've got the performance, basically it's a lot of the annual reports and stuff, a slot did become available, I mean because you just need to get something because I think she likes it because I'm just going from last year, did you say potentially light? Yeah, because last year the performance reports were very lengthy and quite thorough, that's a good word, but there was a lot of information, a lot of questions, so I'm not sure if anything members are planning to ask about the programme but I think those reports that were held there were pretty intensive, is that a good word? So there's issues for potential future scrutiny list? Yeah, so we need that at the end of this municipal year before we go into the next municipal year, we'll have a work programming session because that list is out of date. And there was some talk about going through it, wasn't there, just to see from your perspective what was still current. So we'll have to wait, so we can't really say this is the list we're choosing from then? I mean you can add to the list or remove things to the list, technically it's yours. So is there anything that you'd like to push up, get rid of? What's the latest on this pride in care? Thank you, so we had a useful meeting with Lambeth Links two weeks ago and we've been following up our previous contact with Opening Doors through to the foundation after Opening Doors unfortunately went into administration, so we're looking to pull that together with an outline plan. We are going to ask Lambeth Links to comment on it first, but if that is something that this committee would like to see, I think we will be able to bring that through in March. I think that would be quite a focused thing, it would be quite a small agenda item if you are considering what else would be on there. I mean obviously you can look at services with LGBTQI which would be huge, but I think that this would be appropriate, given what it may be a busy meeting, to this additional answer. Well yeah because it seems to have been a bit delayed, you know different things have happened yes exactly and if it's back on track, I think it's something that people want to see progress on and it's been identified, I think it made quite a lot of media and stuff as well, the idea that we were going to look at Pride LGBTQ+ care homes and so I think it's pretty relevant and I think it's quite progressive if we can get that. When did we look at it last? Yeah I think it kind of came up but there wasn't anything, again it's because it's come up. It's trying to keep the timeline, the timeline has shifted yeah but I mean if there's anything else that anyone can see? The only other one is the vaccination uptake. Yes. I think a lot of counters were put in, without some vaccinations, because again it's a changing picture as well that it's not short in time if it did come to this isn't it? Yeah and also vaccination season is like now isn't it and before now and then March it capes off a bit doesn't it? The flu is now open as is the latest Covid. I know. I have it at the oval. I've got it today now so I'm sure it's relatable. I'll just ask a question, doing the briefing note for the vaccination update, what is the timeline for that and would you be looking at potentially? I mean I think obviously before the next scrutiny meeting which is four months away but do also count on that but I think maybe pick up and do another off because then we let us sort of figure that out over the next few weeks about what might be the best time to get that out. Do it as a recommendation and put it on the action log, not a recommendation sorry, but it will be a recommendation, it will go on the action log and then if that's circulated then you'll have. No point in doing it right in the middle of the vaccination so we'll do it and we'll still reach the outcome of that. Within the vaccination thing it might be good to have an update on monkeypox as well. Oh yes yeah. So that's something that's potentially quite vulnerable. We changed it to mpox. Yes and this item, this item integrated care partnership and health and wealth being board It's an ultimate item in ultimate care, I'm not even sure if that's one that I've had to look for but I can check my emails and see if I can find it. Okay and then there's actually only one outstanding action and all of them are green and the only thing that's still open is that the building isn't ready for site visit. Oh I'm guessing what that is then. So we raised it with the trust. So to be clear this item is the, you asked for a visit to the new Lambeth hospital probably best before it opens to patients to see around without kind of intruding on their care. We raised it with trust when we met with them two weeks ago, Jane and I, and they're going to arrange a date for us once they've taken formal occupation and so on. So I haven't come back with a date yet have they Jane, they promised to do so it will be pretty imminent I think over the winter period. Okay is everyone clear what that is all about? At the time your recommendations are all about the layout and the quality of the care enabled by the new building, it will be much more conducive to the therapy to this environment. Yes. That's the point of going through. See some nice plants and things as well. Okay. I'm not doing very well with this script. Yeah. Has anyone got anything else they want to read to this meeting today? If not, we can close this meeting. And thank you everybody. [BLANK_AUDIO]