Transcript

and I'm not sure we've got Hannah is it just you Jessica or do we have Hannah as well? I think I can literally I think it's just me it's Jessica so and yeah so that's everybody from the applicant signature. Brilliant thank you and and if hello is that someone if you could ask you if you just join just to put yourself on mute uh apologies the meeting's already started. And if people ever raise their hands in the chat just to indicate if you have made a representation in objection to this application and would like to speak this evening. Can you turn that off? I think perhaps uh I think some of the objectors are probably still joining because I understand there are quite a few who have indicated they want to speak so I imagine it's not just you Stefano. So I think in the interest of pragmatism I think I might ask the basically I was trying to find out how many of you wanted to speak so we could set the parameters for uh how long you may have to speak and how long the uh proposers may have to speak and uh just to ensure we have time to hear from everybody a little bit uh perhaps a little bit more organized um but let's I think let's allow them to join and just yeah as I said in interest of pragmatism allow the applicants to proceed with their presentation um and you okay if I give you about a maximum time of 15 minutes? Sorry I'm sure what what Kay is going to say is what I'm proposing to say I think we first would need to set up the committee so there need to be an election of chair and the formalities that normally uh run before we um start hearing from parties and I think you don't really also need to hear um from Pamela or whoever it is to present this item as well. My apologies. So that's no problem at all no problem at all. Are there any other legal side of things we need to do apart from electing the chair? Uh you'd need to deal with um whether there's any uh pecuniary interests um the disclosable pecuniary interests as well and also adopt the minutes quite rightly um Kay has pointed out. I think there should be a a a sheet um uh Councillor Windle that uh you can avert to in the process of setting the meeting up. Brilliant I'll uh I'll see if I have that um yeah can I check if other Councillors or members of the subcommittee have any uh pecuniary interests they believe they need to declare? No pecuniary interests on my side chair. Yeah no I don't and would you like me to propose again that you're chair chair in the meeting? Uh let's do that again just in case yeah okay thank you. Apologies for this um and uh finally members of the subcommittee happy to approve the minutes of the uh last uh meeting of the licensing subcommittee. Yes indeed. Brilliant um in that case uh as I suggested at the beginning of the meeting we're uh moving uh to uh the uh uh second uh substantive item on the agenda today uh and uh Pam Riley can I invite you to uh do a presentation on the case? Okay thank you chair this is an application for a new grant premises license to permit the provision of live music, recorded music, late night refreshment and the sale of alcohol from 2300 hours to 1am on Monday to Wednesday um for live music Thursday to Sunday 2300 hours to 4am um and recorded music Monday to Wednesday 2300 hours to 1am and Thursday to Sunday 2300 hours to 4am, late night refreshment Monday to Wednesday 2300 hours to 1am and Thursday to Sunday 2300 hours to 4am, the sale of alcohol Monday to Wednesday 22 hours to 1am, Thursday to Sunday 22 hours to 4am. The applicant has submitted the application was submitted by the agent Netna McCann of Keystone Law, the agent acting on behalf of Cannon corporate limited. The applicant initially received 51 representations objecting to the application, three from responsible authorities, the police licensing, public protection, noise and commercial licensing and 48 from residents. Following a meeting with the responsible authorities the applicant agreed to reduce the terminal hour for live music and recorded music and for late night refreshment to 2am instead of 4am. Also during the meeting the responsible authorities, the Met police and public protection both withdrew their representation having had their concerns satisfied. Attending on behalf of the applicant are the following, Neil McCann is the solicitor on behalf of the applicant, Jessica Stewart, Richard Vivian and Dylan Mingard and sorry I'm butchering the name, Shermone and Jason. In confirmation attendance for residents we've had 16 confirming their attendance tonight and the applicant proposed conditions and the plan which can be found at page 64, 65 to 85 of the report. The representations can be found at pages 185 to 312 of the report. A copy of an existing license for another part of the hotel is found at 313 to 331 and a pre-application report can be found at 333 to 342. Comments made by the fire brigade and the planning department can be found at pages 343 to 346. The options open to the committee can be found on page 10 section 5.10 to 5.16 of the report. That concludes my introduction unless the members have any questions for me. I have no questions. Do other members have any questions at this point? I don't need the chair. Brilliant then yeah but probably again for doing this out of order. I think we've already heard from the applicant and their team. Could I try and check again about any objectors or those who've made representations in objection to this application who may be interested in speaking? If I could ask you to initially put your hand up but if and I think after people have put their hand up I may then invite other people to come off mute if they are unable to put their hand up. Stefano have you coordinated with other objectors that you're the only person responding? Yes so I represent a group of the other residents right. I don't know if I represent everyone who is in the call because I don't know exactly if there were other groups or other people who organized themselves but I do represent, I see some of the people are representing this call. Yeah I mean I would like to speak. Can I check is there anyone else on the call who is representing any other groups of residents? No and any other individuals who I guess aren't part of the arrangement with Stefano and are coming to this meeting in the hope of speaking? Did you want to speak in an objection to this and not now but a little bit later in the meeting? I would like to say I don't know if a resident can say something because I don't have anything. That's what I'm inviting you to do now, well not right now but a little bit later in the meeting. We're just trying to establish how many people want to speak. Basically if too many people want to speak we'll probably have to reduce the amount of time you have to speak for just to ensure we manage to get through the meeting. Ms Diaz is the second case, she's not part of this first case. We're considering the basement Hyatt Regency at this point but we will move on to La Sirena shortly. I believe you should go for the application for the second one first and then you can hear from the residents, that's how it usually goes. So after Ms Pam Riley has given her representation it then would be the applicant to make the representation and then it would be the residents afterwards. No that's understood, I was just trying to establish how many residents may want to speak but it sounds like it's only Stefano speaking on behalf of all the residents so apologies for the confusion there Mr Richards. Sorry chair, it might be advisable to probably ask Pam because she as the case officer she might have received emails to say who wishes to speak and they may not actually be in the room. We have. There are a number of, as I said there were 16 persons that confirmed that they were attending the meeting today. Unfortunately I only see a couple, Mike Hall and Stefano and Stephen. I will give it one final ask after the applicant has presented but I think it sounds like Stefano is going to speak on behalf of residents and I think just to make clear to all listening and attending we have read all of the papers so we are familiar with all of the representations and arguments both for and against this application. Mr McCann if I can hand over to you and your team and I think as I suggested I hope 15 minutes is enough. Yes chair, perfectly sufficient. Thank you and good evening. I intend to take you through the proposed customer experience as it's completely different to that of a standard bar and then focus on why we're here today. Chair of course you and your colleagues will know but for the benefit of this call as a licensing subcommittee you undertake a quasi-judicial function and are required to make a decision based on the four licensing objectives and their promotion of course taking into account your policy. Now I will try and remain focused on those licensing objectives in your policy and not strange areas which are relevant to these licensing proceedings. But before I take the meat of my submissions I'd like to make some very brief preliminary reports, report points even. At first I can't begin an apology. We provide you with a lot of reading, an enormous amount of reading. The application documents and written submissions they're very wide ranging. We've got the likes of an acoustic report, a statement of community involvement, policy security policies, noise management policies, dispersal policies and much more. Chair once you're deliberating away from this meeting if you have any queries or questions I would urge you to look at documentation because hopefully you'll find the answer somewhere there. Now most of what you've read in that committee report including all the representations made against the application of course were produced before the hours sought were significantly reduced during the later part of a week and weekends and as Rhys explained all these activities including the sale of alcohol, I didn't hear that perhaps I wasn't listening out properly, but all ICEM activities the request has been reduced from 4am to 2am within effectively 30 minutes drinking up. Now we say this is a significant amendment and effectively what is being considered now is almost a different application. And next I just want to touch upon the area and put the location of this premises in context. So the premises is in the basement of a major international hotel hired very respected brand and that hotel has bars and restaurants open to 1am and guests are coming and going 24 hours a day. Now we anticipate the majority of guests of the basement will come directly from the hotel and we hope if this application is granted this author will hope to drive up occupancy levels of the hotel. Now of course immediately next door we have another international brand 24-hour hotel. Now not only will some of the patrons of our late bar be staying in that hotel, but that hotel next door has a boardroom, sorry a ballroom that disgorges up to 660 patrons who attended dinner dances and the like after 2am. So we say this is not an application for a late bar in a vacuum but more of an extension hotel and hospitality complex which already exists. Now of course adjacent to these large hotels we have got residential dwellings hence we've got representations from local residents, but we've also got other commercial businesses and the hotels face on to the busy out of the embankment and of course the river Thames. And we have board right next to us a large live music venue which is licensed until 1am. Then finally on the area of course if you look directly the back of the hotel there's no fewer than eight train lines going into Waterloo station. So we say this is not a sleepy residential area. Okay if I can move on to the customer experience. So for a start say for up to 10 patrons at management discretion entry will only be permitted to those that booked a space before the bar opens for the evening. So we'll have people's names, numbers and email addresses with their IDs being checked on arrival. So why is this important? It's important for a number of reasons. Because we've got patrons details we believe this will deter any potential troublemakers and once patrons are in the late bar they're less likely to cause a nuisance as it's much easier to bar them in the future if we have their details. And also with this booking system this reservation system we won't have potential patrons queuing outside with all the problems this can bring but you do have conventional bars and nightclubs in the hope that the capacity is not being reached and will eventually be permitted air entry by one of the door supervisors. That won't happen here. Also something else something else is different. These bookings and reservations are always for a seat either at a bonquette or at the bar very much like you'd find if you're booking a restaurant. So patrons that aren't coming direct from hotel if they arrive before 11 p.m we propose they come through the door and sell a manker street. If they arrive after 11 p.m is conditioned after 11 p.m is conditioned they'll be shown by security to the main lobby of the hotel and once the details are checked patrons be led downstairs by member of staff and shown to the booth or seat. Now once in the venue patrons be able to enjoy a wide variety of drinks in what we say sophisticated atmosphere and the unique appeal is we've got walls that be a light display with continually changing illuminations. So once patrons decide to leave and it won't be like a dinner dance but suddenly lights go up and everybody leaves at the same time they'll leave in dribs and drabs but they'll be leaving via the exit which is the main lobby directly onto Albin embankment and if they're waiting for a taxi they'll be encouraged to remain within the lobby area until the taxi arrives. Now there's numerous references in the written representations to this being an application for a nightclub. I mean I think whilst it's difficult to pigeonhole certain venues this is not a nightclub in the conventional sense. Now I have memories from my youth as to what I remember a nightclub to be. I remember a very long queue to get in, an even longer queue at the bar, lots of people standing around me with the dance floor being the main draw and I also remember being very very hot and stuffy and certainly what we've described in the application what's conditioned here is completely different to that. If I can move on to the licensing objectives of course four of them some are more relevant than others to this application. With an experienced team, experienced architect, project manager, building sphere etc with limited capacity the public safety lighting objective isn't really of relevance here. Neither this protects your children from harm because we won't allow in anybody who's suddenly the age of 18 and of course we check for IDs. So that leads me on to crime disorder. I can't emphasize enough the significance the police were drawing their representation. As soon as we reduced the hours sought they withdrew their representation and unusually this was done without any further conditions being requested because they were happy with the comprehensive operating schedule. The first sentence for section 182 guidance under beheading the lighting objectives crime disorder states 'lighting authorities should look to the police as the main source of advice on crime disorder'. So we say that this is not a high-risk application from crime disorder perspective. Leading on to public nuisance. Now the significance of police withdrawing vis-a-vis public vis-a-vis crime disorder is mirrored when it comes to environmental health and public nuisance. Again on reducing the hours the EHO immediately withdrew their application and no further conditions were requested. Now if there was a history of issues public nuisance emanating from a high hotel or concerns for a grant would add to public nuisance the environmental officer would be here today having made maintained representation. But we recognize that public nuisance is the main concern of local residents when it comes to this application so I'm going to talk about a bit more detail. Now the guidance says the issues about public nuisance will stem many from concerns about noise nuisance, light pollution, noxious smells and litter. With no takeaway food and drink and no cooking the only aspect of public nuisance which is relevant here we say is noise nuisance. With licensed premises we say there's potential for four different sorts of noise nuisance to take place. Thirdly from music and patrons actually inside the premises noise from patrons outside the premises and then noise from patrons entering a lead of the premises. So if you take those risks in order. So can noise emanate from the premises disturbing residents? We say in short no the premise is located in the basement there's several lobbies between the source of the noise and nearby residents and we also have a noise limiter in place to ensure we don't disturb the nearest residents which are patrons living sorry staying above because all this is detailed in Richard Vivian's report. So the second one could noise from patrons outside the venue cause of public nuisance. Now chair we don't have any dedicated outside space and patrons aren't allowed to take drinks outside so the only potential for this sort of noise is when patrons go to have a cigarette if they choose so. We've got a condition to say we'll have a dedicated smoking area that's going to be at the front of the hotel which is far away from residents as possible. It'll be supervised by an SIA door supervisor and we condition a limit of no more than 10 people smoking at any one time. So at least what about people when they're coming to the venue or leaving the venue? Well we say we've given this careful consideration. The door inside of Manker Street is out of action at 11pm so thereafter all dispersal will be made from the main lobby of the hotel. We've got a dispersal policy that's been developed. It's at page 186 of your committee report. So we say in essence if this application is granted there'll be a few more people walking along out of the bankment, a few more cars, a few more taxis and nothing that can seriously impact local residents can inform the traffic that already exists 24/7. Hence from a licensing perspective chair we say the potential issue is relatively limited and have been addressed in this application. So chair this leads me to my final strand of my submissions and that is your policy and of course we do have a representation from Mr Richards who is from the statutory authority. Now I've addressed those concerns in detail in my written submissions I lodged last week but just to make a few points. The first point is your policy is effectively a how-to guide when it comes to lodging licensing applications. It makes numerous very helpful recommendations from applicants in respects to the likes of pre-application consultation, operating schedules, producing policies and the like. Now I know from experience that a lot of applicants don't actually take those steps. We have and it's the reason why it's taken a year from first formulation to being before you today. The second point obvious but important we are not in a cumulative impact zone so there's no presumption to refuse the application. And the third point is that your policy contains a matrix of recommended hours depending on the type of premises and its location. Now both today in my written representations chair I've explained the nature of the local area. As your policy states it's not possible to characterise every street. Our licensing decision has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. This proposal also cuts across several different descriptions of premises listed in your policy but they have recommended terminal hours for license activities between 1 and 2 a.m which is what we're applying for now. In other words chair we'd love it too but unfortunately this application doesn't fall neatly within a particular box. However we say this doesn't have a significant effect. As the fourth point the final point of course I'm going to make is your policy makes it clear that these recommended hours are not absolute and been intended as a guide. The hotel next door to us is a classic example. 2 a.m licensed life activities throughout the week, massive capacity and far fewer conditions for what we are proffering. Actually I'm conscious of the time. I'll wrap up by saying that every step of the way we've sought to listen to concerns. This application is now considerably more conditioned than originally envisaged. It's one of the main tenets of licensing that every application should be considered on its own merits. In this difficult time for the economy we believe that an opportunity to create jobs and invest is a welcome one whilst at the same time we're conscious of the needs of whole licensing objectives. And of course chair if we're not true to our word there is the ability to review and revoke the license and all that time efforts and investment will be dashed. Chair I think I'll leave it there but of course happy to answer any questions your colleagues might have. Thank you. Thank you. I'm not proposing to go into questions at this stage until we've heard from objectors if councils Cole and Curtis agree. Yeah absolutely. But if there are any questions you want to ask at this stage then or clarifications. Mr Richards do you want to say anything on behalf of the authorities objection or is the written submission based on the hour sufficient? Thank you chair. I'd like to present an oral representation. Firstly may I say to Mr Matan and his team the application and I concur it was very thorough, it was very comprehensive even with the supplementary documents. However as I communicated with Mr Matan today is that within our policy and he quite rightly said it's a recommendation, it's a guideline. However with the type of premises and the times that the premises wishes to operate, so be it that they have reduced the hours from 4 a.m till 2 which was welcomed, I still stand to say that the premises and I concur with you Mr Matan it's not a nightclub and it's a bar and you quite rightly pointed out that the application doesn't fall into one box. However the type of location within our policy, there are four type of locations and I will concur that it's not a truly residential area so therefore it should and can fall into the next column which would be a local centre shopping parade. However with the times that this application is seeking it falls beyond even those times whereas the local shopping centre parades the recommended hours are Friday to Saturday to midnight, Sunday to Thursday until 11 and therefore this application will still be approximately two hours beyond the recommended time of our policy on a Friday and Saturday and three on a Sunday to Thursday. Mr Matan mentioned the impact of public nuisance and I would have to agree with him that the areas of public nuisance, the main one would be the ingress and egress. The biggest problem is the people out in the streets gathering causing a nuisance of noise, potentially noise of the vehicles, engines revving music coming from the vehicles and it is within a very close proximity to residential dwellings. There are a number of residents here tonight who will have submitted their representations addressing those points. As the licensing authority acting as a responsible authority I have submitted this representation. There are concerns of crime and disorder and public nuisance. Yes the police has withdrew their representation with the revised application followed by public protection the noise team. However as the licensing authority I do and we do have concerns that the granting of this license until such time the application is seeking could potentially have a negative impact on public nuisance to the residents. Again I will say the application was thorough, there was a lot of work put into it addressing all the concerns but unfortunately at this precise moment and as this application stands I still have reserved concerns and therefore I do wish my representation and my oral representation to be considered for the determination of this application. Thank you. Thank you Mr Richards and Stefano moving on to you if I could ask you to introduce yourself and I think given the number of objectors I think we would normally limit I think sort of residents or resident group representations to two or three minutes but I think I will give you up to 15 minutes although I would encourage you not to use the full amount of time just in the interests of Mr McCann. Sorry chair can I just quickly check so I can have it over in front of me what page to find his representation is in the committee report. I'm not sure if Ms Riley can assist. Sorry Stephanie just cover your name so Stefano so I can't sort of cross reference it I think that would be helpful if I could. Well I'm representing a group of residents so I don't know if there's going to be much you know alignment to my personal objections on what you know what I'm going to say now but you'll find it I think I can help you find it. 195 page 195. Thank you much appreciated. Sorry yeah do go ahead Stefano if you'd like to introduce yourself and then yeah as I said up to 15 minutes. Yeah so hi everyone so well thank you for organizing this. Stefano I as I was saying I you know I'm a resident in the other department I represent here a group of residents I don't think you know I represent really we don't have a group with all the residents I represent a big group of residents some of them as I was saying are here so you know I'm gonna I'm gonna we decided I'm gonna summarize a little bit our our objections and our main points but then of course you know if they want to jump in I mean I don't know if they they're allowed but if there are questions maybe we can try can try to answer. All right so okay so from our point of view I would like to ask you committee members to not grant permissions for this late night license by the high efficiency due to the detrimental impact that will have on surrounding residential area. The Lambert licensing policy classifies the area as residential it does not fall within a major town center or a district town center or local center with shopping parades you know as I said earlier we don't have a you know supermarket anything like that near. The license proposal is until 1am from Monday to Wednesday and 2am from Thursday to Sunday. It was mentioned the nearby Riverbank Park Plaza from our understanding the sale of article there stops at 11 pm Monday to Saturday and 10 30 pm on a Sunday to three hours and a half earlier than the proposed application on the weekend. So also there's been you know some reference around the the denomination of the nightclub or a long hours bar you know we think so we think that the Lambert licensing officer classifies the premises nightclub within their licensing policy and we agree with that classification because the players the application lists you know a range of nighttime entertainment with live music recorded music DJs late night refreshments iCall and so on. With regard to the premises where they are situated you know we think they're situated predominantly in a residential location. The nightclub entrance is 20 meters away from residents in block a in the service road road alberta embankment and some 30 meters from residence block c in salamanca street there is several family homes that share the same wall with the nightclub and we calculate that about four meters above the nightclub ceiling there's one floor in between without that noise limiters will serve to reduce the noise from live entertainment vibrations can pass through walls to nearby flat you know any license after midnight we think will affect locksy residents significantly. With regards to the main objectives Lambert's own statement licensing policy in appendix 6 does not consider nightclubs or non-diversified iCall led venues to be appropriate for residential areas note that the potential impact involved disturbance late at night from the departure and dispersion of patrons potential for music noise issues with noise from outside smoking areas drunkenness problems associated with longer hours violence associated associated with alcohol consumption sexual violence drug misuse the application relates to a basement room which contains a bar DJ booth VIP boxes where people can party and dance Mr McCann earlier said it's like a it's like a restaurant you know there's no cooking in there we think the room is suitable for partying and crowd dancing and their website also talks about parties and dancing you know the plan indicates a room of about 200 square meters with capacity to accommodate 168 patrons which means 1.2 square meters per person and that doesn't seem to us like a density of a restaurant you know that's that's a high density of people we find the fire authority suggested the maximum capacity of 60 persons there the nightclub fire exit also leads into our private residential courtyard we provided the specialist risk fire assessment which identified significant fire security issues to summarize the only place for the fire cars to park and service the residential courtyard is in front of the nightclub fire exit and this is also shared with our residents so you know this can cause potential blockages and you know it's just not suitable for that amount of people with regard to public nuisance and anti-social behavior we think that would be a serious problem there would be a cars around our residential blocks parking you know they already do in black prince road there will be more it'll be bringing you know guests guests will be waiting around nearby corners corners and we don't think there's any way that that can be mitigated i mean the security sia security will not stand around our block and ask every patron or noisy car to respect the peace of the neighborhood by turning their car engines off or turning the music off or stop speaking loudly right and our residents have to keep their windows open at night they're flat located in old buildings with like air conditioning we submitted ourselves also a acoustic report which confirmed the risk from patterns at night and we're happy to discuss that you know with the community on the technicalities maybe separately with regard to crime disorder we think the most likely the nightclub if approved or the late bar if approved will attract co-related fires from gangs from outside the area very close to the bar maybe maybe in front of the residential entrances even it's really near the nightclub entrance 30 meters from the nearest flats on slumaco street and some 40 meters from the main residential entrance with 500 residents there's a very narrow pavement that passes in front of our flat and leads to the nightclub's main entrance those residents walking home to their flats late at night will potentially be exposed to attacks they will be very close with potential you know gang criminals coming to the area attracted by the you know by the killed by the patrons the sia security at the door will not be able to help and unless they're really close and that's not going to happen because they're not want to get involved you know outside or far from directly from the entrance and this for us is a real danger one female resident recently complained about the noise caused by some patterns leaving the roof the bar and they threatened there this master mobile phone she was you know car followed her she you know called the police and she was left traumatized for four weeks and we believe you know this shouldn't happen right i mean this is i don't think anyone would want to be in a situation like that and i think the council has a duty to protect its residents by this kind of situation and it shouldn't allow businesses with this late night licenses so close to residential properties you know long female residents will not feel safe returning to their flats late at night and we're just this application will just add greater risk by allowing nightclubs to operate in residential areas like ours with regards the narrow pavements outside the main entrance that runs in front of the hotel and has to service 500 residents as i said earlier we think that if the licensing subcommittee approves the license application of this eight bar the smoking area outside of the main entrance there will be patrons congregating there it won't be possible to provide safe passage for our residents and and you know there will be there would be issues with a narrow pavement essentially and you know already you have to like step down when people are arriving to the hotel you know there will be more people there will be at night and of course there will be also the noise that will be caused by the smokers outside with regards to the noise we also think that you know inebriated nightcap platters we walk in the nearby streets softer in groups laugh shout argue scream possibly even fight just very close to our bedrooms and you know this this happened already they said that you know they could say they're on a public street and they can make all the noise that they want and security member cannot legally force them to be quiet so there's no way for them to police people around and outside the nightclub and the noise noise is uh you know for people returning to the building and and getting out of the building will prevent the rest is to sleep and my you know mr can say also that the area is not a sleepy residential area because there's some businesses you know these businesses they close early i don't think they have anything to do with late bars there's hundreds of people in hundreds of flats here and and we do have the right to sleep we think and it's it's very clear from the policy again that residential area is not suitable for nightclubs or late bars i think it's really very simple um and um again with regards to the streets the the both salamanca street and salamanca place are really narrow roads and they're enclosed by buildings with 13 floors on each side which we acts as as an amplifier it's like an amplification of the noise they call it a canyon effect and again local residents need to sleep some of them wake up at 5 a.m 6 a.m we have a lot of key workers in the flats which houses nurses and teachers and these people need to be able to have sleep to do the great services that they do to everyone in london and so in summary we humbly request to the committee to deny this late night license or any license beyond midnight for external guests this application we think does not benefit the community and its approval would expose residents to considerable nuisance crime risk and threat to public safety we urge you to provide prioritize the well-being and safety of the families the essential workers and the elderly residents in our community where is acting this application brilliant thank you stefano um can i check there's no one else who was uh intending or thought they were about to make a representation or speak um on this application nope fantastic um oh mr mr hall did you yes i would appreciate mr chair for just a few moments nowhere near 15 minutes but a couple of issues that i think if i if i can give it if it's only i just to say to everyone else say if no one else has been ahead of it i can give you up to three minutes mr hall if that's okay very good the uh mr mccann dismissed the potential uh harm to children because children won't be allowed into the nightclub well that's a very honorable statement i'm sure but i think what we must consider is the harm potentially that's going to be presented to young children who are living in the hundreds of residential properties surrounding the the highest hotel and and its entrance and exits right that's we're not concerned about harm to children in the premises uh and also the fact that um mr mccann quite rightly said that there are other premises in the area offering similar sort of late night services yeah correct but i think as an argument if we have in the streets of london a dangerous stretch of road and we want to seek permission to create an additional danger i think the argument to say well it's already a dangerous piece of road so it doesn't matter to put more danger in in the way of pedestrians or drivers and that's what mr mccann's suggesting there's already there are some issues with noise and late night revelers having been drinking uh we don't need to add to that problem and i have not seen any evidence that any of these revelers to the uh to the drinking establishment i won't call it a nightclub or a bar because we seem to be uncertain what what how to identify it but there's no evidence that anybody's going to be charged any money for entry to this uh product to this ground to this basement activity and there is evidence in written evidence that the hyatt hotel and its cannon corporate are trying to create revenue more revenue to make the whole project viable and i appreciate their their their acumen there but in doing so they're gonna have to generate and promote the production of money which is through the sale of drinks predominantly alcoholic drinks which is going to further create this uh ambience outside when these people are exiting when they've got out the hole in in their systems and we're all grown up enough to know that common sense sometimes leaves the human body when they've got alcohol inside them and respect for the neighborhood uh is is inherently disappears we know this from experience that's just two three actually three small points i just wanted to add to the already very strong argument for objecting for this project to go ahead thank you for giving me the opportunity thank you um i i'm mr cross did you want to speak as well i'm sorry i feel i've given all everyone i've got opportunity i don't want to take up too much time i just like to make three observations i'm i'm gonna have to give you one minute i'm afraid on page 12 mr mccann in relation to rubbish said in his submission rubbish is already an issue for the hotel he failed to mention that to you i just meant i think i don't i don't believe rubbish is one of the licensing objectives mr cross but i know but it's still an issue for people who live close by the late bar um secondly on the big sky acoustics report at 3.4 the author richard vivian actually said um moored on the tems directly in front of the hotel is a tennessee stock floating pub live music and event space which is open until one o'clock seven days a week and that's capacity of 230 nb it was not in operation on the night of my survey if it's missing out such an important feature perhaps his survey isn't as full and comprehensive as you might imagine and then finally just to um uh reinforce um i'm gonna have to hurry you mr cross the fact that um alcohol uh with the uh hotel at 18 albert embankment um is served until 11 o'clock on monday to saturday until 10 30 on sunday so you should compare those facts very closely with what mr mccann is asking you to do for him okay thank you for that um with that i'm drawing any uh any representations to a close or uh and i think moving on to counselor questions um i'm sure the applicant will want to come back to some of that we will definitely explore that three questions um counselor cole counselor curtis uh do you have any questions you'd like to i do chair and i just want to say to begin with i really appreciate the representations that have been given on both sides i sit through a lot of these meetings and often we're not in possession of all the facts and i very much appreciate both sides providing us with with um you know lots of information and and a lot of um you know very reasonable and well thought out arguments um two points if i may raise uh at the beginning and one may be a question for officers uh and the other is a question for the applicant the first being the question for the applicant um i understand the hours have changed you spoke about a 30-minute drink up time so i assume that that would mean uh 2 30 being the sort of close of the premises in its entirety um so if you could talk me through that if possible and then for the officers if we could get some clarification i know it's not directly relevant to this particular license application but could we get some information on the status of the license at the park plaza please i think it's conflicting opinions as to uh what particularly the uh sale of alcohol license looks like at the venue next door so if it were possible uh either kaia or um one of the licensing team would you be able to dig that up for me i don't expect you to know that off the top of your heads that would be rather impressive um but but in the meantime could we talk through the drink up period of half an hour possible place from the applicant uh yes sir thank you councillor it's considered good practice in the licensing act 2003 to have a period of time uh between the end of life activities in particular the sale of alcohol and when patrons have to actually vacate the premises it's slightly different how it works in planning now the idea is if the last drink is served at two o'clock they've got time to consume it i think what the licensing act tries to avoid and certainly what the police try to avoid is that you have last orders then all of a sudden people have to vacate and people end up just drinking downing their drinks very quickly the alcohol goes in the blood system very quickly so uh yeah generally speaking responsible applicants have a 30-minute period between the last time last activities and the actual closing time so obviously from two o'clock there'll be no live recording music no cell of alcohol a nice gentle half an hour period for people to leave um now so i've actually got a copy of the riverbank park plaza license here i might i might ask if officers have it just uh uh if they're able to uh flag it otherwise i might invite you to mr mccown if you have a chance but mr richards or uh makaya we're working on looking for the for the license chair perhaps um uh i think i think it just might be more uh more appropriate for right given the question was addressed to the authority for the authority to answer it although don't uh distrust your integrity mr mccam um can i let's let's take another question in the meantime sorry i could check i just just come back on the on the drinker period if you yes of course um so thank you very much that's very useful so so egress uh sort of ends at 2 30 of which then guess if you could just talk me through the process after 2 30 so so you know imagining us in the in the bar downstairs you know the the lights come on at 2 a.m there's a or or near about there's then a drink up period of half an hour which i kind of understand at that point guests will then be funneled you know they'll be told by security to to to move out of the bar they will then i assume be funneled into the lobby of the hotel if you could just talk me through the point of which um they will then enter the hotel lobby and then i assume be asked i would imagine to all leave the front of the premises or will there be kind of enforced ejection from the lobby of the hotel if you could just talk me through how that would work that'd be really useful of course counselor so there is direct access from the basement through a door to the lobby of the hotel so everybody would be told to go to the lobby hotel they'll be asked to leave as soon as possible we'll have security present that's conditions part of a license if people are waiting for a taxi they're very welcome to stay in the lobby hotel there's no reason for people to congregate there's no access to any alcohol there's no music playing they can stay if they like like you can stay sat in any hotel lobby but there's not really much to do chair their council is a bit boring so we expect people to drag gradually dive to actually diverse from the area and leave obviously counts that throughout this time people are coming going anyway so 24-hour hotel flights coming in all the time so it's not as though there's no activity after 2 30 because it is a functioning hotel i appreciate that thank you thank you very much i'm happy to happy to yield counselor cold do you want to come in with a question and then we'll we'll go back to officers on the uh the hours um yes so on on um i think it's a page 130 of your presentation you talk about um other events um such as parties um potential of the venue for for holding those so i wondered if you could um explain how that would work and particularly in relation to the questions that we've been um asking about the end of the event and how people could leave um and secondly sorry i don't have a page number but um in your presentation just now um you said that um guess we'd have to pre-book um could you tell us how long before opening time they would need to pre-book i think it says 30 minutes could you confirm that um and secondly um i saw mention of discretionary um entry um at at the door staff's discretion um so could you clarify that point please um thank you i think that's all my question yeah thank you counselor so in reverse order we've proffed a condition on the license that people can only reserve 13 minutes before the premises opens and you probably know where i'm going with this the reason for this is it stops any sharp practice where people turn up and they then start to book him whilst they're standing in the queue or just waiting for the premises to open the idea of having a little bit of wiggle room for 10 people to attend you see if there's a group of friends that says four of them and they've all made a reservation properly one person has forgot management discretion they're allowed in but that state all their details be taken and it's not up to sia discretion it's up to management discretion so the duty manager at the time will have to actually come up speak to that person and assess whether they're happy then to actually attend the venue so if that explains that in terms of the references to other events obviously it's going to be a nice space so we envisage we'll use it during the day but not for life activities life activities only start from 10 p.m but there's a lot you can do that doesn't require live recording music cello vocal etc that can be done within the envelope hotel it's a nice space to use but that doesn't impact upon um the reason here today which is of course for a premises license so you wouldn't have a a party at night time that's only for the daytime the other activities we don't we don't envisage hiring it out um for parties um that's not part of a plan at the moment okay thank you uh can i check with officers whether the hours of the neighboring license were i thank you chair i do have it i'm just confirming um okay so the sorry right the riverbank park plaza hotel so live music is monday to sunday 9 a.m until 2 a.m recorded music 9 a.m till 2 a.m performance of dance 9 a.m till 2 a.m entertainment similar to dance 9 a.m till 2 late night refreshment 11 p.m to 11 30 with some seasonal variations which takes them up to 5 a.m on new year's eve and the sale of alcohol is monday to saturday 10 a.m till 11 p.m and sunday 12 noon till 10 30 p.m with some seasonal variations is that your understanding as well mr mccann there's sorry chair there's an extra section for set of alcohol that says where alcohol is necessary to provision a regular entertainment it's 2 a.m monday to sunday so when there's live music and dancing etc it's 2 a.m and that's how the plaza has these sort of dinner dances and large events that that chair that would make sense i mean it would be it sounds and perhaps i'm wrong i'm no licensing guru although i am trained in licensing the it would seem very strange to have a venue that was open for a further three hours without the sale of alcohol i think i think in this case i think mr mccann is probably right about that point i'll ask for blue to mr richards uh yeah i i do agree um sorry i didn't that's uh that's helpful that thank you i'm glad we uh i'm glad we're all agreed with that so um yes so i'm in agreeance with what mr mccann has said council curtis any further questions um just just uh one further question of of the applicant which i'm i'm pretty sure you may not have done but but let's just test it anyway has there been any modeling done by uh the hotel of what proportion of attendees are likely to be non-guess has that information been been modeled or is is that something you don't have access to uh we've modeled it uh counselor based on the number of people who use our existing bars and restaurants sure one part so but that's like you have to accept it's not an exact science absolutely not understood do you have those figures available uh can i maybe ask uh ivan i appreciate you probably haven't got exact statistics but it's we discussed it something like 60 isn't it um hotel use is that right the existing facilities trying to see where ivan is now right yes yeah yeah looking at uh 60 percent kind of in-house guests modeling on it fantastic thank you thank you very much that's that's most helpful council call any further questions um just one more question actually um about um transport because waterloo obviously it's well provided with with night buses and so on so how confident are you that the guests are going to um leave straight away in a taxi rather than on on foot to find a night bus counselor um clearly if somebody wants to walk home we live locally that's absolutely fine but we envisage um with the the likely spend for the majority of people will be catching taxis there is a taxi rank directly outside hotel with drop-off and pick-off so it's it's probably served from that perspective okay thank you just on exit i think you've mentioned it previously as well when when you talk about the likely spends are you able to give us an indication of the the likely price of drinks or something that might um too expensive for my liking um obviously it'll be a wide-ranging cocktail and wine list um we did discuss actually putting together addictive uh menus food tonight but we didn't want to be uh presumptuous and um even if it's like implications granted the site still needs to be constructed so we're not quite about stage yet um but uh yeah it will be a wine a wide range and it certainly won't be the sort of the the benidorm happier prices but you might see at certain licensed premises if i can put it like that uh yeah i appreciate there's um more work to do so um uh thank you for that answer um if i might just touch on the uh the limit of 168 patrons and the comment from the fire authority i wanted to just see if any kind of i know you have touched on this in some of the written submissions but um has any kind of fire risk assessment been carried out or can you touch on the uh recommendation that uh given the fire exits the capacity should be limited to 60. i think that's 60 with uh inward opening doors so chair that's something obviously you'll appreciate for any building of this nature we have to have builder control sign off and also we have to a fire risk assessment which be done by a qualified independent third party so i think this is something when you actually get into the build gets looked at there's no point it's not my job but if somebody's so stupid as to have the fire escapes not sufficiently wide that the fire risk capacity is 60 that they're on our head but um we believe that with the current design that the capacity we've proffered is correct obviously if whatever reason the fire risk assessment is lower than that that's what we're going to buy too thank you and um i just wanted to check why why are you raising the main entrance to be at on salamanca street up to 11 o'clock and then why why the switch at 11 o'clock can you talk a little bit more about that why not the main entrance throughout or uh and why the switch so um initially the plan was to use salamanca street throughout the opening time but i think we listened to concerns that um the lasting authority had we listened to some of the residents have and that's why we actually reduced the time now the peak time for people coming will be between let's say 10 p.m 11 p.m so we think it's useful to have our entrance available so not everybody's going through a hotel lobby when it's being used um so that hopefully explains why we want to have that but it's obviously far more limited to what was initially envisaged that's helpful thank you um and uh i think given the concerns from i think sort of written representations but um also some of the uh oral representations this evening i wonder if you just i i know you had spoken about this in terms i think uh particularly mitigating noise to um some of the patrons in the hotel itself but i guess i'd note that between the basement and i guess the first floor where rooms will be for the hotel you'll have the ground floor whereas uh as the representations have suggested you will have um residences only four meters away on on the ground floor i assume um i just wonder if you talk about any i know you're talking about sound limiters but any further noise mitigation or any works that may be planned to uh i think reduce that transmission of noise uh yes chair so um i can see mr vivian is is itching to say something and i'll pass on to him in just a second so with the noise limiter that will be set to level so we cannot cause a stuffy noise nuisance to nearby residents and if we design the building badly it just means that limits can be set at a very very low level of course we have got the residents our own residents living directly above us therefore we can't have any vibration whatsoever because people feel it when we're trying to get to sleep but i'm not an expert richard is richard you want to just chip in at this point uh yeah thank you neil um uh good evening counselors um actually mr mccann's spot on that the the limited does does does the work um so and and we can set the limits either in conjunction with environmental health officers uh from the licensing authority um if necessary that that can be public condition but but a limiter will ensure that there is no um either airborne or structure-borne noise except to residents um i think they i think the uh separation to residential property is a little greater than than um the resident uh i think stefano mentioned um but nevertheless that's the issue and of course a hotel is what is a hotel the hotel is in the business of selling sleep there are people in that very same building that are paying money good money to have a peaceful night's sleep they might be getting up for a flight early in the morning they may be arriving late and just want to go to bed they will have children with them all of those things um so although i'm not saying the residents are not the primary importance there are guests in that hotel and the hotel certainly doesn't want to have negative reviews that the hotel bedrooms start off many form of noise thank you um i just reflect i think some of the other concerns have been raised in representations um i wonder if there's anything uh you would propose to do to i think reduce sort of particularly taxis idling while they're waiting to pick up residents or um or anything along those grounds yeah we can certainly instruct our sia to uh ask taxis not to wider their engines that's um just good practice good for the environment as well so happy to do that yeah we could uh technically the council can find vehicles for idling as well uh but it's a slightly different department um and then finally i think just in response to uh from some of the the oral representation um i wonder if you give any consideration to uh patrons who may have driven to the venue then parking nearby and um again sort of idling or playing music out of their car or continuing to drink um and if there's anything you can do to prevent uh that kind of activity from occurring um certainly chair if people are driving to the venue there is limited parking but if they park illegally obviously that's covered by separate legislation in terms of if patrons are hanging around the immediate environs of the premises and are being anti-social and and so it's not it's very difficult to explain this from a legal perspective but it's not the middle of soho with certain venues that are very much dance led where people might go back to their cars and play music but if it is that case we do have our sia and we will be actually knocking on the car and asking to actually move on if they're causing a nuisance they'll cause obviously call the police so you'll see from the conditions we've got a very high number of sia compared with our capacity uh any further questions council curtis council cole uh no further from me thank you uh just just one final question from me just before we go into deliberation um i i wondered if you would uh accept the i think recommendation from both um licensing authority and um stefano on behalf of resident uh objectors to uh reduce the hours uh to midnight friday to saturday or 11 o'clock sunday to thursday chair can i answer that and can i have two minutes to to sum up i'd normally i'm not going to sum up it's not vital uh yes yeah i think if they're in it i can answer the question and sum up at the same time in terms of reduction of hours we've already reduced the hour significantly we're only actually opening at 10 p.m if the hours are reduced anymore it's simply not economically viable to go ahead this project it's not just a case of a lick of paint and putting a few chairs it's a very high and very considerable spend so my instructions are that we would like to stick with the hours as now applied for in terms of just to sum up very quickly and we've heard what the residents have had to say i have to say that we've got no record of stefano's representation that comes out of this way so i couldn't find it in the pack but we've got no record of stefano mr hall sorry sorry um it was what it was nine eighth sorry the number and i misspoke on the number and it stefano's is one nine eight one nine eight is it okay fine that sort that out but neither stefano nor mr hall attended one of the numerous consultations we had with local residents when we explained more about the nature i appreciate some of the concerns that have been raised i've said some of what is mentioned i don't think is actually backed up with any substantive evidence it is quite wild in terms of the thoughts there's going to be roaming gangs and people attacked etc and that's completely different to what's being presented in terms of written application for what we've said today so i think i'll just leave it at that you've got plenty of material to actually look at your deliberation and can i have a quick look at my phone just in case i've got a client who's jumping up and down desperately to say one last word they're not so chair it's late at night i'll leave it there thank you thank you um i think we're going to move straight to deliberation now um i think i guess to i just want to sort of reassure everyone on the meeting or to explain to everyone the meeting that um licensing is quasi-judicial so our decision is based on the licensing objectives we have um as i've mentioned read all of the papers and the objections we've heard everything that's been said this evening but um again sort of i guess sort of things that are considerations outside of the licensing objectives won't form a part of our decision um but also given it's focusing on the licensing objectives i should highlight that um the it is the merits of each of those points in relation to the objectives that we're considering not the the volume or the number of individual uh responses that have been raised either in favour or in objection to an application um i just wanted to make sure that was clear to everybody just before we move on to deliberation um i think what's going to happen now is uh councilor mr cross can i just check what yeah um the final point was that um just to make sure that the council's understood that one of our residents was attacked by a couple who came out with that that point has been raised i think yeah that was raised earlier in the meeting but thank you for raising that again mr cross i think single female i'm sorry mr cross uh so uh yeah councilor cole councilor curtis and i and uh obviously is going to uh go to another meeting where we're just going to discuss this in private um i'm hoping we won't be gone for more than 15 minutes um but then we will come back to this meeting um and uh hopefully be able to give you a decision at that point so uh yeah please uh please do go make a cup of tea or a cup of coffee and you know we'll see you shortly thank you thank you thank you so the nation which uh very important for this same departments as citizens uh hello everybody we'll just give um subcommittee colleagues a an opportunity to rejoin i can see council curtis and council cole have returned to the room uh so um we've deliberated and uh we've decided to grant the application as sort with all of the conditions consistent with the operating schedule and those conditions agreed and set out in the papers uh to be clear this is for the reduced hours for the terminal hour of 2am as set out in the papers um and also to be clear the conditions are in annex a on page 78 uh of the uh paper pack um we've carefully considered everything we've heard and read from everybody uh and we're satisfied with all the amendments uh made to the hours and proposed conditions uh and we believe that this proportionately and appropriately addresses the licensing objectives uh so thank you so much for your involvement in this part of the meeting um this concludes 4b uh and we'll now move on to item 4a which is uh la serena just say thank you um for myself my uh client's chair uh for all your time and health if i can stop you mr mccann i think we've just got quite a few people on the call then uh we're going to uh keen to move on to the next agenda item but uh thank you everybody so much for your your time and involvement in this meeting uh so moving on uh we have uh la serena which is uh brickston station parade uh can i can i just double check who's here from the applicants and who's here uh objecting and intending to speak i can see i think german ramirez is here from as the applicant yes and i'm here with blaine lee he will be my representation brilliant and then uh dave watson from the uh police authority yeah that's correct brilliant and uh paul richards are you speaking on behalf of the licensing authority again i am jim you are brilliant that's helpful thank you uh ms riley can i ask you to introduce the application yes chair this is an application for a new premises license for la serena 30 to 30a brickston station road london sw9 8 pd the activity and timings are as follows the recorded music and live music indoors monday 11 a.m to 2 a.m tuesday to thursday 11 a.m to midnight friday and friday to sunday 11 a.m to 0 30 sorry till 3 a.m late night refreshment indoor outdoors friday to monday 2300 to 1 a.m tuesday to thursday 2300 to midnight the sale of alcohol on the premises monday from 11 a.m till 2 a.m tuesday to thursday 11 a.m till midnight friday and to sunday 11 a.m till 3 a.m opening hours on monday 11 a.m till 2 a.m tuesday to thursday 11 a.m till midnight 30 friday to sunday 11 a.m till 3 a.m the uh the hours just stated are the revised hours confirmed by the applicant following the receipt of representations against the application um please could i complete uh it was agreed that uh glenn lake would be the agent and i'd just like to confirm whether he is in attendance tonight um otherwise the applicant uh is mark disease alcaranta um the applicant is in attendance three representations they are both in attendance miss riley they're both on okay thank you three representations were submitted against the application from the licensing authority public protection and the metropolitan police for the licensing authority we have paul richards we have um dr ali pavandi for public protection and we have pcd dave watson for the metropolitan police the application is at pages 19 to 42 the plan is at pages 443 to 47 and representations can be found at page 49 to 58 that concludes my introduction if there's any questions for from the committee i have no questions at this time council curtis council cole neither do i thank you no just yeah no wondering how it's a cold either um over to the applicant was it was it mr cook and is it miss remeres or yes yes yes thank you and also the problem is i got some problem with the connection and i'm trying to be in a computer but i did with my phone with my partner phone we can see you and hear you perfectly so um yeah this this is working um can i give you up to 15 minutes to speak in favor of the application it will that be sufficient okay okay you want to hear me uh only if you want to would you like to is there anything you'd like to say about the application or are you happy with what you've submitted uh through uh through the written application itself okay i would like to say um um agree with the police about the the everything that they told me before but the only thing is the the hour because the police help me a lot with uh the condition that they give me but i'm agree with the with it with this but i'm not happy with the time only but i don't have any problem and i'm trying to do my best and we got 10 here uh and we do very good job we don't have any problem and also we do more than that the police asked me to do we don't we do more because we don't want any problem and i would like to tell everyone like the people came here are people very hard working they came late from their job and also they came here to eat something and have a fun and what else i would like to say i got many things that i'm doing for do my best in this job like i don't leave anyone drunk people go in to the premises and also um i'm protect my clients a lot and yes i would like to say this thank you uh and just show me mr like did you did you also want to say anything or and you don't have to yeah yes um i would like to summarize uh what is samara doing try to communicate with you that she said that um in terms of the representations all of the conditions of the police she has agreed with them except for the hours but that in terms of what she has agreed she is able to offer more conditions for example the police have asked her to security and she's able to offer three as far as people uh have made um references i'm speaking now about other persons other um other and other authorities they have not really offered any conditions which were helpful but the police have been extremely helpful she's adopted 19 conditions and able to offer more of her own on top of that this application started in july it has only come to hearing now after several months in that period of time she has had temporary event notices without any issue whatsoever therefore she appears justified and supported by that evidence that it would reasonable to ask for the hours on the weekend till three o'clock subject to cause to the consideration reasonable consideration of the committee that is the position as we as we stand now um for example as far as the um condition and there are 19 which is agree with the police by the way they are more than enough to to remove the risk that we're talking about i would say this is a railway arch in a market street no near residential neighbors to be concerned about police are naturally concerned about crime but you know the condition which they offer are reasonable and that is a position there was one issue which suggested that there was no planning commission but of course what we're really asking for is a decision onto the licensing act not onto the planning act the description of this place as a nightclub is not 100 accurate it's the premises here which is a restaurant and space for potential number of people who would say seating 150 but um if you had 150 people every night that would be great but it's probably not really likely to be the case it hasn't happened so far by the way however anybody who is seating here would have a seat in the meanwhile the premises have operated on the prem on the temporary that notices without any incident whatsoever um the additional conditions which the applicant has in as put in place is that the security people we called their activities and their observations whenever they are there they haven't come across any incidents so far and the regime is good surina would in addition have training which the police have advised recommended and she's happy to do that okay if there is any question that the committee would like to put to us we would consider them and we'd like to respond to them as you feel entitled to ask thank you very much thank you very much um i don't have any questions at this point i'm going to suggest we leave most of the questions until we've heard other representations but council code is council culture anything you wanted to raise or any clarifications at this point uh not not not at this point brilliant in which case i think i'll go to the licensing authority first mr mr richards uh are you also speaking on behalf of public protection or no just the licensing authority no doctor um the pp noise team are here oh they are sorry yes so do you wish me to uh no if you want to speak on behalf of the licensing authority then i'll invite uh i think i'd like the police and then public protection and uh unless there's any objections to that approach okay thank you chair um chair i submitted my representation and within my representation i've stated that i i objecting to this application based on the application was submitted without demonstrating the promotion of the poor licensing objectives since the submission of my representation i've had no contact with the the licensee to put any um mitigated mitigated um or to rebuke my my representation the area in question is a an an area which is somewhat troublesome and we would expect to receive an application that will clearly address the concerns within my representation it's mainly crime and disorder um the sa the application was submitted without any conditions but after my my representation conditions were agreed along with our colleagues the licensing police there was no dispersal dispersal policies submitted with this application there was there is no further information to withdraw my concerns with such a premises which we do consider as a nightclub within that location freeze i heard mr lake say that the there is an offer for further sia or free sia's but the applicant the application states that they are looking to have up to 400 people now the premises itself would not be able to contain 400 people if it was a restaurant and therefore this premises could morph into a nightclub and our policy licensing policy identifies the potential um issues that such a premises could occur by disturbance at late night departure of dispersals of patrons drunkenness problems associated with longer hours than many other premises within that location violence disturbance noise music of from music and the patrons coming and going from the venue and issues such associated with noise from outside smoking there's not been any policies of how they're going to manage the the patrons whilst at the premises queuing to and from or even outside smoking the area that road is highly populated by purses by and people lingering in the area and again there's no demonstration of how they are going to manage their patrons from passers-by etc my representation my representation and is of my view that the application should be refused as the application the applicant has not demonstrated with the application or provided any evidence that the licensing objectives will be promoted apart from agreeing to the reduced hours which she has just now said that she's not agreeing to the reduced hours which was previously said so this application is seeking to go to have liceable licensed activities until 4 30 a.m on a Friday and Friday to Sunday our policy issues and states the times that should be and if this license were to be granted we are asking for it to be in line with the licensing policy however again I do not have the confidence with the papers that's been supplied to me that the look for licensing objectives will be adhered to or promoted. Thank you there'll be an opportunity for you to come back and answer I think some questions as the applicant in a bit we're just hearing from some of the objectors at the moment so yeah please just be patient I had a couple of questions for you Mr Richard so I just wanted to check I think you mentioned the activity until 4 30 in the morning my understanding was it was on Friday to Sunday my understanding was it was until three in the morning Friday to Saturday but I think that is the case I think that was in Ms Riley's summary as well sorry you're on mute Mr Richards I just wanted to sorry Jim it was on page looking at the application the timings are on page 31 30 sorry 32 late night refreshments until 1 a.m the supply of alcohol on page 33 is on a Friday until 4 a.m Saturday 4 a.m Sunday 4 a.m with the closing time from 4 30. My readings of the application must have been must be incorrect because you know that is clear thank you I also just wanted to check so obviously you haven't had any correspondence with the applicant since you put in your representation and the new conditions have been submitted if the applicant were to reduce hours to in line with standard policy or in line with police recommendation would the licensing authority withdraw its representation or do the other concerns still stand? My concern still stands but I would welcome if the decision if the panel are minded to grant this license I would recommend that they are in line with the licensing policy yes thank you thank you. Ms Riley did you want to come back on the terminal hour points or? Yes chair according to the information that was provided by the case officer our jury he said that Friday to Sunday they amended their hours to 11 to 3 a.m on the recorded music live live music sale of alcohol and 2300 to midnight Tuesday to Thursday and 1 a.m on Friday to Monday. Absolutely I think there's a discrepancy between the information on page 14 and the information on page 32 and onwards. I think page 14 is the summary and the actual application we're considering would be page 32 or actually it starts a little earlier than that is it page 19 I believe I don't know if you're able to advise John Mark but I guess we can come to terminal hours because it sounds like if the terminal hours have been reduced by the applicant to 3 a.m then that would be what we are considering when we take this to deliberation. I think it would be prudent if we could just sense check with the applicant exactly what it is they think that they're applying for in terms of the hours for those activities and ensure that they align with what we have in the papers because it appears to be some discrepancy I would say would need to be resolved by the applicant. I had a couple of questions about the hours anyway let's do that now just to make sure we're absolutely clear just before we move on to other representations apologies yeah if I could ask the applicant so is it I think the hours that it suggests in the summary are Friday to Saturday until 3 a.m for live music, Monday until 2 a.m for live music, Tuesday Thursday until midnight, the same for recorded music and the same for the sale of alcohol. Is that your understanding? Yes yes it's right yes including Monday until 2 a.m just to double check that yes yes that is correct okay thank you very much. Mr Watson if I can move over to you. Very much chair yes thank you chair thank you councillors yes so just I think it's worth probably explaining to yourselves that when the application first came in it was of concern as Mr Richard says it was concerned it lacked very little detail and given the given the location of the premises it was an initial concern to myself because it is a particularly challenging area especially for policing. We are supportive of local businesses in that area because a lot of the issues that go on aren't necessarily directly linked to licensed premises it is ASB issues in the surrounding area so I was keen to make contact with the applicant quite quite quickly because what they were seeking did appear initially excessive for that particular area so I had an early contact with the applicant I sent over the conditions proposed and the proposed hours and I also agreed to do a site visit and meet the applicant this being this wouldn't wouldn't necessarily be normal practice for ourselves but given the challenging situation of that particular area I thought it would have been prudent and especially what the applicant was seeking and as Mr Richard said it wasn't it wasn't necessarily obvious what they were seeking in the application because it makes reference to it being a nightclub restaurant number of things so upon meeting with the applicant and the applicant agreeing to the conditions and also the hours I met with the applicant just to go through the conditions to give myself basically you know just to appease myself that the applicant was fully understanding of the conditions and after going through the conditions I was satisfied that the applicant did understand the conditions and understand why the conditions were being implemented and we left the meeting with agreed conditions and agreed hours it was also discussed it's worth noting it was also discussed at the meeting that at the time of the application we didn't know the applicant themselves we didn't know what sort of premises it was completely going to be I was mindful that they were coming from outside of the area into this particular challenging area to police and I wanted to be assured that they knew do the area and also knew what they were buying into and I came away with a positive feeling about the meeting it went well I was then contacted by the applicant via email and advised that she now no longer agrees to the hours that I proposed conditions are agreed but the proposed hours aren't agreed the applicant made reference to this being that she'd researched other venues in the area and was aware that they also had later hours that we were seeking it was explained that each of those applications is dealt on its own merit and a lot of applications or a lot of licenses are subject to historic licenses that you know would have been agreed by different people etc but still obviously the applicant wanted to proceed with the later terminal hours and so that was my that's my interaction with the applicant which has been positive however I still stand by the proposed hours that I've that I sought out in my objection letter I think they are proportionate for premises operating in that area my main reason being is like I said we as a licensing officer I am quite supportive of the licensed premises along that street and a lot of the complaints I get regarding ASB etc are from licensed premises and a lot of the ASB can't be directly linked to the licensed premises however I can't help but think that the ASB wouldn't occur as much if the licensed premises weren't open people frequent the area people loiter in the area now the current premises I believe terminal hours are satisfactory and suitable and well managed and you go you go down this particular location three four o'clock in the morning when no premises are in operation and the street is empty I just fear that premises operating to the hours being sought would attract people to remain in that area and keep people in the area and that heightened risk of ASB again I've touched on the location plenty enough I think I welcome the additional security being proposed by the applicant I think that would be beneficial again and I think that that concludes pretty much what I have to say with regards to with regards to my objection the it's worth noting they have been operating on tens I have them due diligence and checked whether there's been any crime and disorder during these tens there hasn't been any crime and disorder as the applicant's agent stays however I would be mindful to stress that operating on a 10 and operating you know operating throughout the year every friday saturday are completely two separate things thank you and so if I might just clarify I think you said that there is anti-social behavior in the area when venues are open it's not directly attributable or can't be direct you can't be certain it's directly attributable to those venues but you're fairly confident is and part of the reason for that is that there is next to no anti-social behavior at three or four in the morning when there are no venues open on this street yes yeah I mean like I said when I said directly linked I wouldn't say you know I've got patrons from a premises causing crime and disorder and causing asb however the premises being open I do believe attracts attracts asb to the area through people that aren't necessarily patrons of licensed premises and and to confirm if if the hours were in line with your original recommendation you would withdraw your representation yes I mean I was set to withdraw my representation when I when I agreed we had conditions and I was agreed and now my only issue is the hours that have been proposed and because the police hours are slightly more limited than the standard policy hours the police would you would maintain your representation if the standard policy hours were proposed so is that that would be until no I think 2 a.m friday to sunday instead of until 1 a.m at the time at what 1 a.m would be our preference being a new business we don't know but yeah if the committee was to go to policy which is it but if I believe it's 2 a.m is it that's correct yeah okay yes obviously then yeah my objection if you were minded to grant that then yes that's helpful to understand thank you and did we have someone from public protection on was it good evening good evening my name is Ali I'm representing the noise section I made an objection a few weeks ago based on the application I had in my hand which applied for a four o'clock in the morning and 400 people more concern was number of people are turning up at late in the evening or leaving the area at four o'clock but the way it seems the time has changed to three which is much better or had a few email exchange with the applicant asking her to reduce the hours while she refused to the to bring it up to the lambeth licensing guidelines I mean are we I put it that way Paul Richard and police covered what I was going to say I'm not going to repeat it because already it's been said if they reduce their hours I'm quite happy to withdraw my opposite my representation good that's helpful thank you so I think we're moving on to questions I think I think there's a little bit more we need to get into in the hours with a couple of points around it but I guess I just wanted to check just an easy one with the applicant my understanding is if you reduce the terminal hour I think from on Friday to Sunday from 3 a.m to 2 a.m then all representations will be satisfied with that also the hours on Monday as well yeah I was going to come Sunday because that's a bit that's a little bit more anomalous that and I think that's a slightly different question but yeah you're absolutely right I guess it would simply would if basically if there are no representations I'm not sure what happens if they're all during the course of this meeting I might look to if that were to be the case or what the procedure for that is but generally the only reason you come to this meeting is if there are representations which object to your application if there are no representations and no nothing objecting then your application is automatically approved so with that in mind and the fact that if you reduce the tunnel hour from 3 a.m to 2 a.m would that be something you would be happy to accept we are you speaking to the applicant now yes sorry to the applicant yeah thank you position as far as as we're concerned all the concerns which the police have raised and agreed really they address the issues of others most specifically the 4 a.m issue is is a non-starter we agree that that's not going to happen and we don't really we're not insisting on that and the disagreement with the police as well the hours of concern was due to the fact that at the time the um just sorry just just to interject mr like I think I think this is the specific question so currently you're you're I think you're broadly suggesting you want to open until 3 a.m on I think we'll get into this on Friday Friday to Sunday um Friday decided yeah uh but actually we need to clarify that as well the police are suggesting 1 a.m policy is 2 a.m if I understand from the from the representations if you were to drop this from 3 a.m to 2 a.m the representations will be satisfied that that is okay um and they will they will no longer be objecting which means that but the reason for disagreeing with the police was that it was less than the statute policy hours that's all so okay so you are you you you so you you're not happy with the police a reduction to 1 a.m but you would be happy with a reduction to 2 a.m in line with policy hours correct yes but but a bit but we also want to make it very clear that we appreciate very much the help of the police a lot in fact the objections of other people were unhelpful and did not um even point you in direction of anything but the police information is practical and useful and extremely helpful and we can even offer more so uh that's that's very helpful thank you um and then so I guess the other point that Councillor Curtis raised is um the so the the proposal to open until 2 a.m on a Monday uh so that that would be effectively I think it as I decided I'll be you open you're open late at so 11 p.m on a Monday evening until 2 a.m on a Tuesday morning um is that is that is that something is that was that your intention in this application and the policy hours are happy with that you're happy with policy hours so uh yes absolutely I don't know I I'm just yeah the I think I think it was in in the summary for this it suggested that uh there were later opening hours on a Monday um I wondered if uh sorry yeah John Mark if you want to come in I was just going to ask if if Mr Richards if you might be able to remind us of what policy hours actually are just so we can first literally just about to do exactly that I'm happy to defer to Mr Richards if you want to Mr Richards uh but I think it's uh anyone yeah yeah it's it's it's on the um the actual gender pack for this particular item um and essentially uh the first page of the item report states that the premises of this type in this location that's to say a bar nightclub in this place um has a recommended hours in the policy of 11 a.m to um 00 um hours on um sorry 12 p.m on hours on a Sunday um 11 a.m to 0100 hours Monday to Thursday and 11 a.m to 0200 hours on Friday and Saturday if the applicant is saying that they're content with constraining their hours to that that's stipulated in the policy then that is what would be that's that is what would apply um so we just need to know if is that what the applicant is saying that is absolutely correct okay and that that's fine and so in in that respect we would the committee would be considering the application duly amended so that it is consistent with those hours stipulated in the council's licensing policy now as far as the representations council window you asked about that what happens if um there is effectively uh no dispute no representations if PC Watson and Mr Richards are saying that save for the hours there are representations aren't for would fall away then you still should obviously now that we've had this meeting determine the matter of course um but you uh will do that with the knowledge that uh the representations that were made in objection uh appeared to have been effectively resolved we we feel they have been resolved yes yeah so i think i think just uh i think what mr muke i'm saying is because we are um uh in this meeting we we now need to just proceed with the meeting which means i think we we need to go to deliberation uh and have a quick conversation and then come back um i i just wanted to double check before we go that that no one making any representations or anyone else have any final comments before we do go chat chat i do i do have one uh apologies i haven't actually asked for counselors have any questions which uh yeah it's an interesting case actually um and and one i haven't seen before in licensing which is where you know applicants are willing to reduce their hours and people are willing to withdraw their representations in meeting um but the question that i had one discrepancy that i found on the application form was uh in the section which which actually wasn't needing to be answered which states if 5 000 or more people are expected to attend the premises at any one time please state the number expected to attend the applicant has then put 400 um which given the the the square footage of the premises seems extraordinary that would be three and a half people per square foot and i just wonder whether or not the licensing authority um has any concerns about that number being put on the application because that does seem to me to be an extraordinarily high number please forget that 400 number that's an error it's an error okay i appreciate that thank you very much i think i think that might also be subject to planning consideration so yes i hopefully that would be resolved i just important to check absolutely i think um i think i think i have i have several questions about uh slight discrepancies on the application as well but uh i think i'm going to propose that uh we go to deliberation uh unless council curtis council cole have any other burning questions no no chap no no brilliant thank you i will be back uh shortly thank you so much hello we are back apologies that took a little bit longer than we anticipated i can see uh what subcommittee members are back in the meeting um so uh yeah just to uh just say we've deliberated um and we're happy to grant the application with the modification to operating hours uh to those uh that are consistent with the preferred hours in the council statement of licensing policy um these are for recorded music and live music and sale by retail of alcohol 11 till midnight on sunday 11 until 1am monday to thursday and 11 until 2am friday and uh friday to sunday um this is also agreed um including the 19 conditions that agreed with police which are details in the paper on page 52 um we've carefully considered everything we've heard and read uh we're satisfied with all the amendments made to these hours and the proposed conditions uh we believe this proportionately and appropriately addresses the licensing objectives uh so uh yes very very happy with this outcome uh yeah thank you for the pragmatism of um the uh everyone who made representations and um yeah basically thank you to you bc watson for um i think meeting working with the residents who uh to get to this and um sorry applicants not residents um and yeah congratulations to the applicant thank you we're grateful thank you very great to see watson i think this uh yeah no we're very happy as well i think we're pleased to be able to yeah it would be great fantastic to have a very responsible business on that strip as well so um uh yeah look forward to visiting um i think that concludes the uh the meeting the licensing committee for the 7th of november uh i just wanted to check um kaya or john mark is there any any further things i need to do before we close the meeting no chair that's fine