Special Meeting, Scrutiny Panel - Monday 11 November 2024 7.00 pm
November 11, 2024 View on council website Watch video of meeting or read trancriptTranscript
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This states the names of the councillors who have called in this decision in erroneously citing Councillor Binnie Leverk, who is actually a member of the panel and should read councillors Garbert, Davis, Premru, Turbot, Delif and Route. So those are the true names of the calling councillors, so welcome to you all. So the scrutiny meeting this evening is a special meeting following a calling of an executive decision of Hackney Council. Hackney Council's constitutional calling procedure states that the scrutiny panel will hear from the leader question, the Cabinet councillor within whose portfolio this decision rests, and the case of a delegated officer decision, the officer who took the decision. So discretion of the chair scrutiny panel to allow any of the persons to be heard at the meeting. As part of the scrutiny function, also in my role as chair of scrutiny panel, I'm always keen to hear directly from members of the public and to give residents a platform to contribute to the councillor's decision-making where possible. We feel that's an essential part of scrutiny. Although we welcome and encourage participation from members of the public, this meeting is a formal meeting of the council held in public and not a public meeting and that's a crucial distinction. The calling process this evening is focused on specific procedural grounds outlined in the calling procedure rules and the monitoring officers report. At previous calling meetings, scrutiny panel has permitted other members of the public to make relevant contributions and to answer questions. An example is the recent calling in relation to schools closure, where there's a number of contributions and parents. Prior to this meeting, scrutiny panel received a request from one of the calling councillors Councillor Garbert to bring three residents to allow them to answer questions. Fores received two further requests from another resident, the National Federation of the Blind UK, to attend and speak at this meeting. At my discretion, I decided to allow all these requests, particularly as I felt the contributions of potentially relevant with the proposals are in the resident's interest. Members of the panel received a number of emails questioning this decision over the weekend. The light of this situation I seriously considered limiting all contributions from residents and restricting participation in the meeting to calling councillors and the officers who are responding as is my right of chair and this is something I've discussed with the monitoring officer. However, on this occasion, I'm not going to do so, given that there is a genuine public interest in this decision. I don't think that would contribute to the overall fairness of the evening. Just to remind people again, this is a formal meeting of the council and to remind everybody both who in the chamber and the public gallery, they're right to expect all participants to be treated with courtesy and respect that all contributions should be able to present their case without interruption and to listen to the views of others respectfully. Controventions of this may lead to the meeting being halted and if necessary, members of the public gallery will be cleared. If the public gallery is cleared, this will include members of the public permitted to speak at the meeting as well. Having said all of that, I'd like to really warmly welcome everyone to this meeting this evening and thank you for your participation in our local democracy and let's have a really good discussion of this important issue. Now moving on to item 3 of the agenda, declarations of interest. I'll start, although it's not strictly declarative interest. I'm on the mailing list of Hackney Cycling campaign and I've cycled in Hackney and many other parts of London in a variety of conditions for over 30 years, so I do have some personal experience of this issue. We're now going to call another member's Councillor Hayhurst. I'm a Councillor for Hackney Central where this sits. My only material comments on this is I did brief a local ward meeting in relation to it. I don't believe I expressed a view on it. I'm looking at the gentleman to the right of Councillor Garbert who I believe was there at that meeting, so please let me know if you think in any way I did and I should recuse myself. I don't think I did. I think it was very much a briefing situation, but I don't want to be above all forms of proprietary in terms of making that clear. I don't believe I've expressed a prior view in the situation. Councillor Hayhurst, no, no, that's the B-level. Just a non-picanery interest in that I am a member of the London Cycling campaign, which I believe makes me also a member of the Hackney Cycling campaign. I'm also a cyclist within London have been since I was a young man and I have very almost been involved in a serious accident of where two vehicles T-bone each other within a couple of metres of me on this particular junction. Sorry to hear that. Thank you. Councillor Conway. Richard, I am also a Councillor in Hackney Central. Councillor Conway, so now to move on to this is Stan. Oh, sorry, Councillor. Yeah, I'm the Councillor's disability and inclusions champion. Yeah, Councillor Garbert. Just to declare that I'm a keen cyclist. I'll also read me how my bike's stolen. It's a lot of it around. It's like a bad cyclist. Thank you. Any more declarations of interest or should we leave on to Councillor Item 4? Okay, so moving on to agenda item 4. This is a calling of the executive decision, CES382, in relation to Amherst Road, Pembery Circus Transformation. So we've got one, yeah, so a key element to the scrutiny decision function as I've sort of covered a little bit earlier is to consider the calling of an executive key decision. This calling meeting relates to the executive decision CES382 Amherst Road, Pembery Circus Transformation. This was a delegated officer key decision taken by the Assistant Director of Street Scene. The decision was published on 14 October 2024. A call in notice was received within five clear working days. The date of decision being published, supported by Councillor Zoe Garbert and for the lead Councillor and four other Councillors name you, Councillor Liam Davis, Councillor Claudia Terbock-Della of Councillor Fist Pembery and Councillor Predy Rout. I think you're all here this evening. Thank you for coming. So the basis of the call in and please bear with me when I read this out because there's a number of different pettings for it is that the decision maker did not make the decision in accordance with the principles of decision making and in particular didn't make it in accordance with the presumption in favour of openness. It was inconsistent with the clarity of aims and desired outcomes relevant matters have been ignored and consideration evaluation of alternatives and the reasons for there was insufficient consideration evaluation of alternatives and reasons for decisions. So the second main point of the base of the call in the decision maker did not act in accordance with the policy framework as set out of the constitution and there's a reference to that in your papers. The third point of the decision maker failed to consider relevant evidence as reference to that in your papers and the fourth point is a decision would not be in the interest of the boroughs residents and a preferable alternative decision could be adopted. Please note that this date lead calling councillors may not seek to introduce any additional information and explanations, but the presentation will be based upon the reasons given in the call in report on pages 21 to 47 of the papers. And I would say generally that as the purpose of this meeting is to consider the call in representations that please could all contributions be focused on addressing them rather than any of the matters that you've got on your mind. So thank you. So I'd now like to welcome to the meeting. I've already welcomed you, but I'll welcome you again. Councillor Zoe Garbert from Jolston World, Councillor Liam Davis from Stoke Newton Ward, Councillor Fitzpremery from Pysold Ward, Councillor Claudia Turbo Delos from Victoria Ward, Councillor Kenny Roup, also Victoria Ward. And the officers we've got present are the Louise Huntfries on my left, the acting director of legal and democratic electoral services and our monitoring officer, Tyler Linton, the assistant director of street scene, Peter Subramani and Moni, I hope that's okay. So please correct me if it's not. The director of environments and climate change, Ryan Locke, principal traffic engineer and Marianne Allen, the group engineer, thank you all for coming this evening. And additionally, we've got in the chamber Mayor Caroline Woodley, Councillor Sarah Garbert member for climate change environment and transport, Councillor Chris Kennedy, government member for health and other services, Councillor Pajana Thomas, government member for community safety. He's not here, but maybe on nine Councillor Cees online, Councillor Robert Chapman, government member finance, a recording hi at, he's also I think online, the group director for climate homes and economy. We've also got representatives from Hackney Cyking campaign who introduced themselves on due course, Andrew Hodgson from the National Federation of Blind and local Hackney residents, Vincent Stops. And then we've got Fertcher attendees, Josephine Sturd, Hediaise, senior law at general litigation and public realm and Pranol Kapadia, senior transport planner. So I will now invite the calling councillors to speak. So, councillors Zoe Garbert and councillor Claudia to have a dialogue with the community, whichever order you want to. Please note that you've got up to 10 minutes of your presentation. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Chair. I want to start by acknowledging how important tonight's decision is and how this decision means, how much this decision means to lots of people in this room as well as residents in the local area. As it's set out in our constitution, using the calling mechanism should not be used lightly. The councillors who have come together to call in this decision are responding to concerns raised to us by our constituents and we are acting on evidence that's been presented to us about the way that this decision is taken and to highlight the disastrous consequences of continuing with this decision as is. Which is why I'm glad that scrutiny councillors will be reviewing this decision and we are confident that after you review of this information presented in the call in and this evening, you will agree that the decision requires further reconsideration or else risk moving forward of a decision that not only was not taken openly has ignored relevant matters and has ignored a best practice alternative. A decision which is not in accordance with the council's policy frameworks and is not in the best interest of residents. Going forward with this decision, condones the junction which will fail vision zero guidance for decades and embeds risk of serious injuries and death on our roads. Scrutiny panel, we are not expecting you to be experts in safe road design but if warning from experts are ignored, you do share the responsibility for the decision taken. This is your opportunity to consider whether you truly believe that all has been done to deliver the best vision zero child-friendly design in line with our transport and climate policies and if you have any doubt at all, I implore you to refer the decision to cabinet or four councils so the appropriate processes can be followed and the best safest decision can be made. We are challenging this decision on the four grounds. The call in document makes the case clearly for each of these grounds and council the Government's law and I will cover these between us. The calling is a challenge to the design of the Pembury junction, not of the false game and I wanted to stress that the traffic orders in the decision will remain in both cases. We will not go through every point in the calling we are at taking the information as red and we will be stressing key important points during your attention to areas you may like to question this evening. I wanted to highlight that the speakers later in the adent gender only speak to one of these reasons yet have been given a disproportionate amount of time on the meetings agenda. Scrutiny committee, please remember that if you agree with any one of our reasons for calling then the panel must call in the decision. Alongside us as councillors today we have a traffic engineer, a resident with lived experience of the crossing and one representative from Happy Cycling campaign and these speakers have been given five minutes in total so they will rush through their points but please. I am stopping your time for this but just to clarify that they will be given ten minutes in total. There has been a change in relation to that. I will add the time to your presentation. I am timing it. Great. Thank you. That is great to hear. I am going to speak to two of the four grounds. The decision maker did not make the decision in accordance with the principles of decision making. What struck me as outrageous is how Happy Cycling campaign were asked by the then mayor and MP to write a letter of support for the council's levelling up bid which included cycle safety. Safe cycling was mentioned nine times in the levelling up funding bid. And vision zero was also mentioned as a goal for the project in the bid document. Yet the council now claims in the decision document that it is the town centre scheme and not a safe cycling scheme. It is one of many examples that we lay out today about the lack of openness point four as well as the lack of clear aims and desired outcomes point five. To note, Happy Cycling campaign have since said that they would not have supported the bid if they had seen this final design. From information in our calling you will see that the vision zero compliant design, so the green one that we have handed round, has not been assessed sufficiently that asks the calling asks if we believe that a preferable alternative decision could be adopted and we do. There is a preferable alternative vision zero compliant decision. This has been made available to the decision maker in July this year but insufficient evidence with effort was made to explore it. The council must demonstrate that all alternatives have been considered. Yet there is no consideration of this layout remotely similar to the vision zero design contained in the key decision document. Further, the decision maker did not measure the two designs against the standard objective quality and safety assessments available for junction design where cycling is present. This shows that relevant matters have been ignored. Point six and the insufficient consideration and evaluation of alternatives. Point seven was also ignored. The decision maker did not act in accordance with the council's policy framework. The decision goes against humorous council policies but particularly the local transport plan as well as the mayor of London's transport strategy as well as our own climate action plan and travel friendly policies. As councillors you will know that hacking policies on cycling talk about widening access and increasing numbers. This decision will do the opposite. A lot of the justification for the council's decision include general attacks on safe cycling infrastructure which contradicts this policy. Safety is not a nice to have. It is fundamental to the council's responsibility as a highway authority. The real world impact of design that does not prioritize safety is now handed over to Councillor Terva to love for a further cooling drought. Thank you Councillor Gabbard. Just to reiterate, this cooling is a challenge to the design at Pembery Junction not to the full scheme. We are in full support of initiatives to bring about a long awaited overhaul and update to the Hackney Central Town Centre. But it must be in a way that listens to all concerns raised over the design of such upgrades before a final decision has been made and it must also fulfill all of the interests of Hackney residents and that's why we're here today. Though not always obvious, I am myself partially blind and have been for many for nearly three decades and like me, there are many residents who are partially cited, blind, we protect the characteristics and mobility issues who find extremely dangerous to move around the city and the borough either as a pedestrian or as a cyclist. Unfortunately, the lack of sufficient protected cycle lanes in the city leads many people to give up cycling because of the fear and anxiety of cycling through dangerous junctions in Hackney Central, which many regard as a death trap or lethal as described in page 8 of the council's moving around Hackney Central draft report. Once we are not here arguing over which designs should be used, our challenge is how the council as a decision maker has failed to consider relevant evidence when making the decision and has ignored expert warnings. Chair and members, I do plead to you to take our evidence seriously and I know you do, that's why we're all here today. We appreciate you not experts on road safety but at this crucial moment it really is you who have the powers to request to refer the decision to come in it or full council about the upon the evidence that we're presenting to you today and that could potentially save lives. Now Hackney council has been proud in introducing policies to increase cycling amongst residents and we need to be ready for that. We dedicate the cycle lanes to protect pedestrians and cyclists of all ages as well as drivers. Now here are the two points that I'm going to cover in this calling, point six, point C. The decision maker failed to consider relevant evidence when making the decision. Now members, you might be aware that in order to receive funding from active travel England, a scheme like memory circus will be expected to score 70% of a vote on the junction assessment tool. Hackney council's design has only scored 25% in your papers, it says 28, but it has been updated to 25 and you will see that in your packs. Now the vision is zero this time, it scores 95%, which I'm also seeing in your packs. Now for this pack alone, the panel should refer the decision back to coming in. We have the request that the two designs are independently assessed for safety before final junction design is confirmed. Now we also believe that the decision maker failed to consider national guidance and in a moment you will hear from a respected traffic engineer how the council's design falls well short of its practice. Now can I come into the end of my intervention? So point D, the decision will not be in the inches of the boroughs residents and preferable alternative decision could be adopted. Now our case here is that a junction with a 25% junction assessment tool cannot be considered or accepted to be a good outcome for residents of Hackney. In fact the council's plan will lead to more people cycling on the pavement around the memory circus as cyclists will feel safer to choose to be on the pavement over crossing such dangerous junctions. Now the vision's zero design has to signate and separate the areas of cycling and pedestrians that's bringing more predictability and safer cycling and pedestrian routes. As a final point it's important to add that the removal of pedestrian crossing was highlighted as a risk in the road safety audit and especially at risk to blind and partially sighted people. The vision's zero design retains its crossing. Now to conclude and we'll perhaps address some possible arguments and concerns for members in the room that I'm glad also to see in the chamber. Dedicated cycle and pedestrian lanes separated from motories increase the safety for all involved and yes they are improvement to be made where cyclists and pedestrians meet but with a sufficient right infrastructure and education it can become a leading and proud feature of the borough. Hackney council has a golden opportunity to lead the way in reassessing this decision and introducing the best safe fit forward thinking design for the members' circus that show that it is possible to go access with every resident's needs and safe lives. Now I will hand over to members of the Hackney thinking paper from Coalition. Thank you. Thanks very much Councillor Garbert and Councillor Turbo Delo for keeping your contributions well in time and also addressing the issues not our school but the contributors to do the same. I'll be timey and I'm happy to give you a warning just before you come to the end of your time if that's helpful. So he's going to the next speaker. Can you introduce? Yeah thank you. Hi everyone. My name is Claudia Skarnia. I'm a Hackney resident and about a year ago I was hit by a car and left unconscious heavily bleeding from my head in the middle of temporary circus. The accident has had a huge impact on my life. I had to leave my job. I missed out on nearly half of my master's degree and I struggled with post-concussion syndrome for several months which causes really heavy migraines and several other cognitive issues. And all of this for crossing the junction exactly the way it was meant to. The road to safety audit found that on the junction design found that that exact movement that I did that night is a known risk but the new design suggested by Hackney is an address in that risk at all. However the vision zero design proposed by the London cycling campaign would eliminate that risk altogether. So I just wonder why pass a design that ignores a known risk which is not just a known risk but is a risk that caused my accident and is likely to cause many others when there is an option that would eliminate that risk altogether. Thank you. Thank you very much. You're coming this evening. I'm saying and you also shared footage of your accident. I'm very happy to share with the meeting that was a truly shocking incident. I'm really pleased to hear that you're recovering and thank you very much for coming this evening and I'm sharing your experiences with us. Thank you. Thank you. Utility to time. Who's speaking next? Thank you chair. My name is Mark Philpots. I'm a charter civil engineer with 30 years of experience including highways and sustainable mobility design. I work in the independent such as sustainability mobility design specialist. I hold three professional fellowships with the institutions of the engineers, the charter and institutions and highways and transportation and the institutes of highway engineers respectively. I'm also a member of the Transport Planning Society and Associate Member of the Society of Road Safety Alunces. I've had a look at the casualty data for the junction and in the last 10 years to December 2023 there have been 88 injury collisions of which 13 were serious. The most vulnerable are over represented with 18 evolving cyclists, 9 evolving clestrians and 16 evolving motorcycle riders or passengers. The cyclist five of those collisions involved serious injury. It is reasonable that from an injury collision perspective the junction company worked poorly for everybody, especially the most vulnerable. It's not just about the recorded injuries, it's also about the risk which is complex if the junction adds to. It is also about subjective safety and there is no doubt that the junction is subjective done safe for cycling. Although pedestrians have control crossings, the layout is nonetheless awkward for walking, especially wheeling. Given the council secured a significant budget for the project, there is an ideal opportunity for complete redesign of the space. Given the objective and subjective safety issues, cycling should be at the heart of such a design. The council's preferred design certainly improves layout for walking wheeling on four of the junction arms plus that diagonal crossing. However, the loss of the Amherst Road crossing is reduction in the level of service and creates a safety risk where people can still cross on the design lines. Paragraph 17 of the scheme description of the key decision report suggests that this emission is for motor traffic at your reasons. From a cycling perspective, the council preferred design does little for cycling safety, accessibility and convenience and builds in risk for the future. The council design resides on cyclist mixing motor traffic, which countless market research surveys reveal as being highly unsatisfactory for many people, but simply people who should be protected and feel protected from traffic and less flows alone. The council's design utilises advanced top lines. These provide the lowest level of protection for cyclist according to paragraph 10.6.5 of the local transport note 195, cycling for structural design, which is the National Guidance Springland. The council has also decided to provide some arms with early release, which is one step above advanced top lines in the same guidance. However, paragraph 18 of the scheme description in the key decision report suggests that only Dawson Lane South and Pemby Road should have an early release of only four seconds due to motor traffic capacity. Advanced cycle lanes and early release only provides assistance to cyclists who enter the area at a red signal. They provide no protection whatsoever, green signal is running. The council design also makes use of mandatory cycles lanes, which are painted lanes for four of the arms. Such lanes can lead to poor positioning when mixing traffic and they draw cyclists into the near-side blind spots of large vehicles. The general allow to the junction as designed will be difficult for many people cycling to negotiate and it has predictable collision risk associated with it. For example, the head movement from Dawson Lane East, Damhurst Road West has two left hooks, especially as this from the near-side mandatory cycle lanes and without any marginal benefit from early release. Right turns will also be awkward intimidating and risky, especially from Dawson Lane West and Hambo's Road West, which will require people to cycle into right turning lanes. The bus gate provides limited respite in terms of general traffic flow and risk exposure for people cycling, but that only operates 12 out of 24 hours. Finally, the design allowed is geometrically unrestricting of driver speeds. To be honest, chair, this is the kind of layout that we were designing 20 years ago. It will leave conditions that have some people choosing to cycle on the footway, which creates subjective and subjective safety issues for people walking wheeling and it will put pressure on other streets for cycling such as the narrow way as people avoid in resurcus. The appendix D of this committee's papers provide some design layouts and modelling undertaken by steer, including a cyclist junction known as option B, although we don't know to what level of detail this was developed. Section 3 of the key decision report that sets out the return list of options considered and rejected and it fails to mention option B, which would provide significantly more protection than the preferred option. In busy traffic situations such as Pembroise Circus, international and national best practice would design demand that cycling is protected. Such arrangements are common across the world and increasingly across the UK. London has circulating cyclist junctions which protect people cycling and the closest in more than four or just two and a half kilometres away from this particular site. As well as taking notes in my comments also recommend that the council's read the state one road safety audit for the project. I'm sure, which I'm sure has been undertaken, as the issues I raised will surely have been noted there too. The location to balance the solution which separates cycle traffic from motor traffic maintains clear walking wheeling space and which will enable the fullest range of people to cycle for years to come. Thank you, Chair. There's obviously been an opportunity for people to ask you questions. Yes, next speaker introduce yourself of your organisation. Thank you. Hi, my name's Garmin O'Garth. I'm the co-ordinator of Hackney cycling campaign. How long do I have please? You've got up to four minutes in the remaining time for this start. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Hackney cycling campaign has been around for about four decades. We have never campaigned this hard on any particular scheme since I've been a member and since anyone I know has been a member. The importance of the scheme and just how far below standard that it falls make our campaigning. That is why we have campaigned so hard on this and that is why we will continue to campaign on it and regardless of what happens today, push for the best and safest design. All we are asking is for Hackney to take an independent assessment to request an independent assessment from active travel England and to implement that. We're not asking you to be the expert. It's about asking the national expert expert and following the national guidance. When there is an alternative design available, how can the council justify spending millions on a junction that doesn't even attempt to achieve vision zero? Where the council's jack scores, the junction assessment are tall scores and why are they not considered as part of the decision making? Do the 1500 cyclists who cycle through the junction at the minute today? Do they not deserve safety features that are the best in class rather than ones that the Department for Transport have labelled as inadequate? Why would the council implement a scheme that a Hackney cycling instructor says is not safe for children? Why are the council removing a pedestrian crossing that has been highlighted as a major risk in the road traffic assessment and that is being removed? You will hear later. I'm sure that the council's proposal scheme is better for pedestrians. It removes a crossing along a three lane road. 15 cyclists have been injured on this junction in the last seven years. We've heard from one of them tonight. What will the council's defense be when the next cyclist is inevitably injured here? We know that there is a better safer design available. On the piece of paper that was handed out, 25 per cent for it as a jack score. That is, if you had a current junction with that kind of score, it should be top priority to remove it, to redesign it. There is a design available which is completely safe, 95 per cent every movement being safe. What the council proposing will not have any impact on the movement that Claudia had, that will happen again to somebody else at some point. There is a better design available and I'll just finish with a quote from Chris Bordman. So, if you, who is the National Active Travel Commissioner, if you build the old way, you kill 10 per cent more people than doing nothing. The council's design, many of those intervention they're putting in, that is the old way. And you get no increase in cycling level, because it doesn't make people feel safe. If you build to National Guidance, LTN 120, properly and continuously, i.e. the Vision Zero compliant design that we have presented, you get between a 20 and 50 per cent increase in cycling and you have the number of deaths. At some point, that is likely to come back in court. You actually knew that this was the case, and you went ahead and built it, so standard. End of quote. That is a decision and we are merely asking that the council request an independent assessment from the National Expert on Design. Thank you. Thank you very much. Obviously, if you remain, because I'm sure there'll be questions in discussion later. So, I'll now ask Andrew from the National Federation of the Blind UK, speak on behalf of residents who are blind and hackney. Welcome to the meeting, Andrew. Thank you very much for taking the trouble to attend this evening. And let me know if you have need any assistance in accessing your equipment, the audio equipment. Good evening. My name is Andrew Hodgson. I have been blind from birth with no usable site since I was 18. I was trained at school to get around using a long cane and long white cane and moved to London when I was 25 and have been getting around independently, particularly in West London for the past 44 years. I joined the National Federation of the Blind UK and FBUK in 2011 and was president from 2016 to 2020. It's free and I still remain a member of our executive council. We are a campaigning organisation of blind deafblind and partially cited people and have in recent years particularly concentrated on issues protecting the rights of our members to get around independently. FBUK is supportive of the council's temporary junction proposals insofar as they keep cyclists and all sorts of illegal and illegal e-micromobility vehicles like e-bikes of the pavement. Blind people don't want to see cyclists rooted onto and through the pavement. They want the pavement to remain a safe space to walk. Blind people can and do travel independently but they cannot hear or see cyclists nor can they deal with the chaos of often which is often associated with cycle lanes rooted through the pavement. The proposals of at least cycling would mean a chaotic, confusing and disorientating environment for blind deafblind and partially cited people. We understand that the scheme has a two-way cycle lane across the pavement. We are also aware many cyclists and micro mobility users ride the wrong way on a one-way cycle lane, making them for all intents and purposes a two-way route for them to use at will. The proposed layout also means cyclists will not remain the cycle lane and will cut the corners of on the junctions and ride across the pavements in both directions. The proposed scheme from at the camp cycling has an overload of tactile paving with 32 sets of tactile paving. Whereas the proposed council scheme only has 12 sets which is much simpler and easier to understand when using a white cane or a guide door. It is essential to keep tactile paving to a minimum and it is laid, if it is laid correctly, to ensure blind people and use it effectively to get around and from pedestrian crossings and to stop them walking into the road and into danger. Blind people using white canes and their guide dogs wouldn't be able to detect the cycle lane unless it had at least 60 mm curve with high curves preferred, with rock curves to allow wheelchair access and and off the pavement. There is a grave danger that they and their guide dogs will likely walk into the bike lane. However, having this curbing running through the pavement separating the bike lane from the main crossing is confusing and disorienting to a blind person when trying to navigate this area independently. There will be a sensory overload of curbing and tactile information which is too much when we already have to concentrate hard on keeping ourselves and our guide dogs safe using this area independently. If they find the crossing, they would not be able to cross and because cycles would be riding both ways at speed and would know and we know from our studies of cycling behaviour that most won't stop. Greenman pedestrian crossings have all the accessibility features like push button and rotating cones to tell a blind person when it is their turn to cross. Allowing cycles to bypass these features is not acceptable as the bikes, e bikes, e scooters and e cargo bikes are traffic and they also need to be part of the green man pedestrian crossing phase. It is likely that blind people would not be able to use the area at all and would become further isolated in their home. They could not get to the nearby stations, hackney central town centre or local bus stops which is opposite to what this scheme should be doing. One of the biggest problems that blind people have is that because of the deterioration in the urban environment they are increasingly unlikely to venture from their homes. This leads to increasing isolation, causing damage to mental health and fitness with obesity becoming more and more a problem. I have visited the Leigh Bridge roundabout which has recently changed to include cycle lanes which bypass the green man pedestrian crossing making it very confusing and safe and difficult to navigate independently. The NFV UK objected to the design and our concerns were not ignored. However, the resulting layout is not now unsafe and unusable by blind people and we feel that our access needs are being ignored when in fact they should be at the top of the road users hierarchy but they are in reality at the bottom and it is being made worse as we are being designed out of using urban areas due to our road layouts which ignore safety and accessibility needs. I have visited Waltham Forest where these junctions had been used and found them on fit purpose. They have not been built with the access needs of blind deafblind and visually impaired people in mind. Instead of more being planned they should be looking to remove them where they can have them put in. Giving blind people an environment which is simpler, safer and easier to independently go get around. Thank you. Thank you very much Andrew for your presentation and I hope you will be able to stay around if there are any questions. Thank you. I will now move on to our final residents. Speak, please can you introduce yourself? Thank you for allowing me to speak. I am a resident and member of the council's Hackney Central community panel. I represented Hackney Central between 2002 and 22 and I know the history of this proposal. I am here to support the council's approach. Welcome to Hackney where more people cycle to work than drive and has a greater modal share for cycling than any other London borough by a long way. Hackney had the best cycle safety record in any London borough in 2023 with a lower rate of killed and serious cyclist injury per journey of any London borough. This was reported by the healthy streets scorecard people of which London cycling is partitude. Much is made of the tragic cyclist fatalities last year but nothing is said about the previous five years with zero fatalities. The closure of Amur's roadities junction with Nair Street started as a bus project scheme in 2004. This was never pursued because things were more challenging then but it was always clear that simplifying traffic movement between Henry Junction and Morning Lane one could dramatically improve the look in the feel of Hackney Central and improve the operation and safety of all three junctions. I take credit for keeping this on the agenda. We would not be talking about it tonight had I not done so but thanks to Mayor Pike, Glamville and now would leave for sticking with it. This decision took political courage and will be a huge enhancement for Hackney in central. The idea was to reduce the volume of traffic, improve bus performance, take out the pedestrian islands, reduce the number of lanes and close down the area of Tarnwick. This would reduce the number of crossings and distances and slow motor traffic through a tighter junction area. There are many policies one could quote and we've heard a few of the scene but it's actually the Hackney Central area action plan is the most pertinent. The plan is and was to improve the Pembury junction as a gateway to Hackney Central and it to quote to recognise the importance of pedestrian movement, massive pedestrian movement through enhanced pedestrian crossings. There has never been any proposal to introduce bike lanes into onto a widened footway. The proposal has been through TFL scrutiny. It was part of an approved bid a couple of years ago to their levelable neighbourhoods. I want to challenge the notion that there is nothing in the couch designed for cycling and cyclists. Removing traffic volume by 35% will mean fewer collisions. The proposal does that. We restrict in general traffic from the Amherst road east. A third of the area of the junction will become footway area. The alignment will slow motor traffic through the junction. Cyclists will be safer and unrecognised and key safety issue is that all road layouts should be intuitive and self-explaining. The layout is simple and understandable. All users will be far clearer as to where they should be on the road. Contrast that with the confusion and chaos, Hackney cycling proposal with cyclists and other micro mobility travelling at speed in both directions through the newly created footway. Most not stopping at zebras are leaving the track at will. It will be impossible for blind people to navigate and a nightmare for everyone else. Can I finally critique the detail of the Hackney cycling design? The council has 12 areas of tactile paving, five signalised crossings. The Hackney cycling design has 35 tactile and 11 uncontrolled zebra crossings. Cyclists cannot possibly turn at 90 degrees, which they are asked to do at any speed. Two of the turns require cyclists to turn at 135 degrees. Cyclists will inevitably and do leave the track to take corners in wolf and fox. Either merging into the carriageway or the pavement at will, merging onto the carriageway is a no safe use. They will cycle at speeds at 20 hour and hour, 60 percent will not stop. We know this because TFL has measured these speeds and yielding on bus stop bypasses. There will be all manner of illegal and illegal microabilities using these lanes of footway in two directions. Cyclists will race around the lights to get across at the same green signal as pedestrians. Many will either stick to the carriageway or merge on and off. We know this every day at Black Horse World. At Pembery, there would be many more cyclists doing this. Pedestrians will not stick to the demand footway. There's too many of them. Cyclists will swerve around them not give away. Blind people cannot see cycles nor do they flinch. They take out stop. She just got 30 seconds. In summary, the council's approach is a good one. The solution to cyclist safety is not to run cycles through the footway. I hope you will support it. Andrew traveled on his own this evening to Agnes Central. He travels to Westminster on his own to lobby MPs and he goes to the London assembly group on his own to Royal Victoria. But he cannot get to his own highway because of his own high speed because of some of these active travel schemes. I urge you to support the council's design as a good one. Thank you. Thank you. We're now going to move on to the presentation by the London Borough Hackney delegated officer. I don't know what audio you want to speak in, but you have about 20 minutes between you. Thank you. Can you please introduce yourselves before speaking? Thank you very much. That was it. Thank you very much. Good evening. I'm Tyler Linton on the Assistant Director for Street Scene. I'm responsible for the key decision that was taken last month regarding the scheme. I'd like to say thank you very much for the opportunity to discuss this. It is an important topic and it's something that clearly there's a wide variety of interest in. I'd also like to thank the stakeholders who've given us your time tonight as volunteers. We're all working towards the same thing to improve the streets of Hackney and I appreciate that. It's privileged to work in Hackney with such dedicated stakeholders. I also want to acknowledge our guests who are here who've directly experienced the awful impact of road traffic collisions. I can't imagine the devastating impact this has had on you. And the council and myself do not accept that road casualties are acceptable or unavoidable and we are committed to division zero to eliminate road deaths and serious injuries of 2041. This will take sustained multidisciplinary work, but I want to assure you that we're committed to this. I also want to assure you that when we talk about casualties, these are not statistics to us. Each category is an individual and it's something that we never lose sight of. I've read through each of the casualty reports of this location. For everyone who's been heard, I know they're aged, they're gender, time of day, and I always imagine them as a person traveling through this space when I'm reading those reports. We are working to make Hackney's road safer. I appreciate that there's a difference in the opinion in the room about how best to go about that. I must stress that our proposals for Pembury Circus are transformative and they will make it safer for cyclists and pedestrians than it currently is. We know there's a strong and often differing views on any highway scheme in particular on this one. Developing proposals is a balancing act. We have to weigh up different considerations and needs based on technical data, professional judgment, several different guidelines, not just the ones that are brought to my huge number of technical guidelines, some stats show some advisory and most importantly informed by public engagement. And what I want to talk about tonight is the process that we've gone through to arrive at the proposals that we've put forward. I have the same quote from Chris Bordman, I think it's on YouTube, so it's available to anyone. What he actually said was, stuffed on the old way, which is a white line, 75 centimeters out from the pavement, and can't do junctions. This is not at all what we're proposing. I agree that a paint only proposal such as that is not appropriate. As a reminder, what we're proposing is to reduce motor traffic, our estimates, 35 percent of the junction, reallocate a quarter of the carriageway space away from motor vehicles. That means slowing traffic down because the junctions will be tighter and guide them more predictably through the junctions. Every arm of the junction is narrower. The carriageway space is narrower. More pavement space and narrower roads means that we can move islands, pedestrian islands, simplifying crossings for pedestrians and also making the space more simple and intuitive to use. There's fundamental changes to the signal arrangements with an all green face cyclists. There's a number of changes. It's illustrated in a decision report by the number of traffic orders that are put forward as 14 different. These are fundamental changes to the space. There's not what Chris Gordonman was talking about with 75 centimeters of white line. To arrive at this proposal, we've followed a robust and open process, not just in terms of technical assessments and quality assurance, but also crucially public engagement and listening. It's been informed through multi-stage public engagement, starting in 2019, and includes a details calm communications and engagement strategy. When there's clearly disagreement about the nature of a design, it is imperative that the council speaks to as many people and listens to as many people to inform the work. It's also worth just taking a step back and looking at the decision itself. The decision is actually to proceed with to the statutory process of advertising at necessary traffic orders. The decision leads to another stage of consultation. This is a formal statutory process that's set by the local authority traffic order regulations 1996. It's set set what we need to do at the next stage. Just to summarize what that is, we need to put a certain number of advertising in a local newspaper. We need to put up street notices and we need to directly engage with statutory consultees, such as emergency services, other local authorities, TFL, and such organizations, if any, representing persons likely to be affected by any provision in the order. We, by custom and practice, use that to include hackney cycling campaigns to statutory consultee. What this means for this meeting is that while I view the proposals put forward in decision are the ones that align most closely with what we're trying to achieve in relation to particular junction, next step is to proceed statutory consultation. Through that process, and by considering any further objections and information received, only then will I be able to come to a final conclusion to the traffic management orders. There's another step in the process at which time I can consider new information that is supplied in the form of representation that I did not have at the time of the previous decision. To ensure fairness, the second point, this is very important, to ensure fairness, openness and transparency of this process, other individuals and stakeholders will have an expectation of what this process entails, and process is designed both our own approach as well as through the statutory process to provide open and equal access to maker as a representation we heard. In short, we have an obligation to provide an opportunity for anyone to comment on the proposals. This builds on the work that we've already done, and taking the circumstances for the call-in in order, I think we can go into that in a little bit more detail. The first circumstance that the call-in was around openness, aims and desired outcomes. As noted in the monitoring officer's report, this decision is part of a series of other decisions, linked cabinet decisions, not only have we followed open and transparent process, but we set out in public what that process was going to be before we went and did it. In April 2023, cabinet adopted the town center strategy, which had already been informed by extensive constation engagement, and this decision also accepted the money for the blowing up fund, which this scheme is part of. Subsequently, in December 2023, cabinet made another decision. This is in the public, and this clearly sets out the next steps for developing the scheme further. The cabinet decision approved to conduct further non-statutory consultation, which we've done to implement the proposals subject to further non-statutory consultation, and to proceed to statutory consultation, which is the state we're at now. Only following the relevant statutory consultation with all objections, responses received to be considered, recorded in writing and signed by the decision maker. The cabinet decision contained a 10-point consultation communication plan. It called Appendix C. I won't go into detail that. There's some of that in the key decision report in section 8, but just as a highlight, we had over a thousand people respond to an online survey. We held 10 in-person events. We structured our engagement with stakeholders and community groups. We knocked on every door of businesses in the area, and we launched a comprehensive communications campaign. It saw over a hundred thousand people reach through various channels, social media, old-fashioned media, letters through the post. I was in this very room in July, speaking to the Skills Economy and Growth scrutiny commission about this very point, about best practice principles consulting on traffic schemes. In that meeting, there was a number of lessons learned, and we've delivered our consultation engagement approach to this scheme in line with what was discussed in that meeting. To briefly, in relation to the aims and desired outcomes, because of the previous decisions, there's a very clear public record of what the aims and objectives of this scheme were. I won't go into it, but looking back through those public decisions and public documents, we have been consistent throughout the aims of the scheme. I just want to touch on circumstance to talk to the decision maker, not acting in accordance with the council's policy framework. I think in this context, in this room, the most important policy in relation to this is the Hackney Transport Strategy, forms part of the core policy framework of the council. There are others, and this proposal is consistent with the town center strategy, the local plan helping 33 local implementation plans. They are called the Action Plan, Mayor London's Transport Strategy and Climate Action Plan, but from Hackney's Transport Strategy, in the first substantial section of that strategy, after it introduces policy context, and how the document itself is structured, is a movement hierarchy. It's labeled as Figure 2 in the document, and the text is, as a general principle, the council will apply the following movement hierarchy when considering sometimes competing demands for our streets. It then illustrates a hierarchy with. To consider first at the top, pedestrians, including those with mobility and vision impairments, then it goes on cyclists as next public transport users and so on. This is council policy adopted by full council 2015. On the third circumstance, in terms of relevant evidence and decision making, there's clearly a difference of opinion in the room, but professional judgment, the weight to give different tools and different guidance. We need to consider guidance in the whole, and we need to consider different guidancees. Local transport note 120, which is Department for Transport's most current guidance on cycling, refers to other guidancees in itself. It also contains a chapter on planning for cycling, and it puts into context much of what's in that document as part of a wider process in the lifecycle of planning a cycling network. It's only right to look at that document, that guidance, in its whole form, as well as in the context of other other documents. Fundamentally, we started this project before that note was published. We've been looking at Pembery Circus for a long time, but this project in earnest started with a livable neighborhoods bid in 2018. It was Transport for London funded before the pandemic, and that came with its own project management framework and project assurance framework is Transport for London's livable neighborhoods gateway framework. We quite clearly told the Department for levelling up as it was at the time that we were going to continue to use that framework for our quality assurance. We've published, at the point of the Cabinet decision last December, we've published all of the gateway to submission that we had prepared up to that point. Not only have we been using another organization's structured quality assurance pathway, but we also published all of the documentation in the interest of openness. We have our own project assurance framework, and we're clearly not going to have time to go through it. It's got 173 steps, and it links to 92 different relevant guidance documents. But if there's a question about whether or not I've considered the evidence put forward by stakeholders, I certainly did. We met with the Hackers cycling campaign in the winter. They put forward their view that there should be protected separated cycle lanes at this junction, and we went away and asked consultants to draw up a scheme that met that brief. We considered it. We conducted a multi-critariat assessment with different independent evaluators, some from the consultancy, some from different departments within the council that have different points of view, and on balance of factors, pedestrian priority and place-making. In some of them, I decided to proceed with a simpler pedestrian focus design. Subsequently, the HCC produced their own alternative design in July. I considered that as well, and I sent a comprehensive email back to them, as well as having a meeting before making decision and following up on the meeting with an email. We can't go into the details of that. That email exchange would take up more than time that I had. It's just to put guidance and tools like the Junction Assessment Tool and local Transport No 120 in the context of wider considerations that we need to balance its balancing exercise. There are other voices, other tools, other approaches, as well as commissioning a design built on similar principles to what was put forward in the consultation. We also looked at the safety records of other junctions of this type CCS junctions. The junctions came from Agnes I think campaign to look at. It's a truth in highway planning that we are aiming towards vision zero, but currently, even with a CCS design, a circulating cycle stage design, every one of the junctions that we looked at had casualties, serious casualties. It is not the case that there is a template design that has a perfect safety record that can be placed on top of this junction. That's really important. We have to weigh up a lot of different evidence. Jasper Flann is local note 120 has been mentioned a few times. There are some really important parts of that I just want to read out. In the core design principle section 1.5.4, this is basically page one of the substantial part of the document. Infrastructure must be accessible to all the needs of vulnerable pedestrians and local people must be considered early in the process to ensure schemes to sport locally in the long term. The quality acts 2010 requires public sector authorities to comply with public sector quality duty. That is fundamental and that is one of the main things that we have to keep at the top of our mind. I mentioned that we've been engaging with the public since 2019. I've mentioned that we've tried to address the voices of residents in the designs. The top three asks from the engagement where air quality provisions for public and green spaces and improvements for walk-in connectivity. The design not only delivers on these core asks from local community but it also does improve cycling safety. It's a bread and butter design that simplifies the junction, reduces traffic. Building on this we've done extensive further consultation. I think I've set out process over a long period of time and how robust and open we've been this process. But it is true. There are different different viewpoints. There's different opinions. Hello. Can people online hear me through my laptop? Yes, thank you. We're pausing the meeting for around five minutes to try and resolve the technical issues. So, if anyone wants to come for great measure opportunities, thank you. Hello. It looks like we're able to restart. Thank you very much, everybody, for your patience. I'm just checking if people online can hear me. Yes, thank you, Councillor Gordon. Yes, we can. I think just before we had this technical interlude, I think Tyler was just concluding his remarks. I don't know whether you briefly want to go over your conclusions again. I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to repeat your remarks so that everyone online can participate. Chair, do we know at what point it was paused? Or should I ask to make the last minute? I'm afraid I don't have the exact note of it. I think it was literally just summing up, really, just maybe try and recreate that. I apologize, it's repetitive. I think I'll start from where we were looking at the core design principles in local transport note, 120. In the first section of this DFT note, it has a series of core design principles, and section 1.5.4 states very clearly that infrastructure must be accessible to all, and the needs of vulnerable pedestrians and local people must be considered early in the process to ensure schemes are supported locally in the long term. The Equality Act 2010 requires public sector authorities to comply with the public sector duty and carry out functions. In weighing up different elements, the different advice, the different tools, different guidance, and making the decision of the scheme, we must consider accessibility, we must consider the needs of vulnerable pedestrians, and we must inform our judgment through consideration of protected characteristics, and our duty under the Equality Act. I agree that paint on its own is not good enough, and that's why we're transforming the junction. The top three asks from our engagement with the public were improvements to air quality, provisions for public and green spaces, and improvements to walking and connectivity. The proposal we've put forward not only delivers on these three core asks from local community, but also on improving cycling safety. This scheme has been developed through a robust process involving the wider community, and although I understand there are different views which have been put forward tonight, I think this only serves to underline the complex nature of the decision-making when these views are held so strong by different groups. Whatever the outcome of the panel's decision tonight, I trust that it takes the same wider view point and recognizes the voices of all those that have contributed to this process and can see the shared ambition of this project and what it can deliver for the residents of Hackley. Thank you. Thank you very much, China. I now call on Councillor Young to repeat her remarks as much as you can. Thank you. I'm going to go about four points to make, so I hopefully will be able to move on fairly quickly. I wanted to look at this in the wider context of Hackley's approach to cycling and active travel, and active travel is a bit of a techie term, so what I think what that means is walking, cycling, wheeling buggies, wheeling wheelchairs, wheeling children's scooters, all of these different methods of travel. And I should have said at the beginning, I'm keen cyclists, a member of LCC and an almost lifelong cyclist who watches with my breath held when my children, adult children, cycle around Pembury Circus, very aware that we want to make improvements there. So the wider cycling context, I think it's really important. Hackley has a transport strategy that runs from 2015 to 2025, so we're nearly at the end of that strategy. And that marked a really significant change in the way that we look at cycling and deliver cycling routes in Hackley. So it moved from quite a piecemeal approach to a strategic approach where we deliver cycling routes, looking at the whole borough and the way that they link up. And I think that's really important when you're looking at Pembury Circus, who looking at it also in the context of all of the other safer cycle routes around it. And since that point, when we launched the transport strategy, we've built over six kilometres of segregated cycle lanes, and we are still building segregated cycle lanes, so we've built, I think, ones going in right now, as we speak. And we built 45 kilometres of low traffic roads in low traffic neighbourhoods. So we are really keen as a council to create safer, more pleasant neighbourhoods for people to travel in, whichever way that they are travelling out of their cars. This project has gone through lots of layers of scrutiny, so there's all the scrutiny within the council, but it's also been, it's gone through the Transport for London Gateway and other independent assessments. I know there's been talk about active travel England's assessment. It has already gone through several independent assessments, which are really quite stringent in looking at all of the aspects of transport design. So yes cycling, and yes cycling safety, and yes pedestrian safety, and accessibility for people with disabilities, but also how that area is to travel both through and around and within. So it's not just about getting through it as quickly as possible and efficiently and safely. It's also what's it like to travel within that junction. And it has, we've had very thorough feedback from all of those assessments, and all of that feedback is being taken into account. So I think this is not a project where there's you know one alternative and another alternative that appeared against each other. It's a process and it's gone through quite lengthy process. And the last thing I wanted to make two more things, one is just the amount of engagement has been really fantastic in this project. So it's really impressive to see that there were over a thousand consultation individual consultation responses, as well as a really large number of individual stakeholders groups engaged and provided responses. So that's great because it means the amount of evidence that the team have had to look at and take into account has been really broad. And across a very wide spectrum you know from the Tenson Residence Association on and around Pembury Estate locally, who can really talk about what it's like to live right on top of this junction to those who want to travel through it. So that's a lot of different opinions and needs and interests can take into account that. And lastly, just that this is another stage in the process. So we are at the stage where you know where you are scrutinising this this this draft decision. And then after that, if it passes this stage, there is a statutory consultation. So at that point more that we more opportunity for you know hopefully an even wider range of people to feed in and for those those views and that evidence and those opinions to be taken on board. So this is not the end of the process. This is a stage in a process which hopefully will end up with a very very broad you know a really really good and thorough solution. And just at the end just to come right back to you almost where we started. I think I started off by saying thank you to Claudia for attending tonight. I just wanted really to repeat that you know certainly in my mind when we're looking at this is always those people who have suffered not just at this junction but at other junctions as well and how we can avoid that in future. Thank you. Thank you very much everyone for their contributions. I think it's been really helpful to hear all these different views and we're now maybe on to discussion phase which is it's time to able to to last up to 30 minutes and it's going to start with questions from scrutiny panel. We are very keen to make sure that all relevant points are covered in this discussion. I'm going to start with some questions for the officers but just before that I just want to say that I think I'm speaking for every member of scrutiny panel. I think we all acknowledge that the current situation in Pemby Circus is a very dangerous one for you know cyclists and other road users and I don't think that's something that we need to be persuaded of or is contested. I'm looking for any dissent among other panel members and I'm not seeing any at the moment so I'm you know as far as I can making that a finding of tonight. So just to some my questions are sort of building on contributions for officers. We're now moving into if you know if this decision goes ahead tonight and obviously I'm not preempting any decision there'll be sort of full discussion once we've heard every you know opinion to all sides. If this decision goes ahead it's going into a statutory consultation period. I just really want to sort of play back my understanding of that and you know hear a little bit more about how that's going to work. So I think I've heard very clearly that that's going to be an opportunity for these designs to be you know potentially fed into an altered. I really like a sort of response to that if that is something that emerges from the consultation process you know obviously you know sort of an appropriate way. So the second question I had is that you have referenced a number of assessments of the safety of the existing hackney designs. Can you please tell us where they can be accessed and how we can you know assess them because I don't think they've formed part of the papers we've had this evening we've obviously heard an awful lot of concern from the calling councillors and also from the the residents supporting them in relation to safety assessment and there's been reference you know in relation to too specific as I understand it well known safety tools namely the junction assessment tool and the CLOS I'm afraid I've forgotten what acronym that's for. Is there any possibility of assessing that further and you know the the scheme to relation to those assessment tools and publishing those results and I think the you know in parallel with the consultation process and I think the I mean the other assessment and again this is something that's a very strong ask and the residents is relation to the ATE assessment. So yeah so my questions really are in relation to the and also once the consultation process has been concluded who is going to be the final decision maker and what what timelines are we looking at because obviously one of the points has been made through this process was some confusion about the level of decision making. So I hope happy to repeat those after the questions and I'll go on to other members and thank you. Thank you as I understand the questions about the next stage statutory consultation. As I mentioned in my presentation the process is dictated by local authority traffic order making regulations 1996 so it's set set out process set out in regulations it involves notifying statutory notice in newspaper the general public as well as statutory consultation. There's a set minimum amount of time that we have to advertise proposal and then the timeline following that cutoff point for representations. Largs is determined by the level of representations we receive we have to consider everyone that comes in and we have to record a consideration of that in writing in a separate decision. That decision is usually myself as the council's traffic network manager I believe is the title and legislation. I always get it wrong we have a operational network manager and a network manager so that that statutory process decision making is usually to me but in this case it was explicitly reinforced in the December 2023 decision as it may be done to my delegated authority. In just actually time done I'm not sure I heard you saying how long it is the minimum period? 21 21 days 21 days 21 days so the reason for the hesitation that sounds quite short to me I hope you'll be a consideration to it being longer and my second question is 21 days minimum. Yeah was it a relation to additional safety tests I mean particularly those that have been referenced by them and publishing the you know the results of the comprehensive safety tests that you've undertaken. We're happy to publish everything we've got it's all on the public record available as I mentioned in my presentation before the cabinet decision in 2023 we published the entire big way suite of documents at the time I think I think if you follow links through the papers that that is there but that's obviously 11 months ago. Right okay so right yeah so that's fine we I think we've shared already the road safety audits and we'd share all of our other documentation publicly additional safety tests that's raised by the residents and then I'll let other members in and particularly the I mean the ones that have been referenced by the residents JAT and the Class 1 and the ATEE tests. The cycling level of service and traction assessment tool there is no reason why we couldn't conduct these tests at this stage there are a number of tools to use and the decision of which tools to use is influenced by what the original aims and objectives of the Schema. There might be others who who would ask us to do an accessibility audit that might be others who ask us to use the City of London street accessibility tool that might be others who ask us to use healthy streets designer check which which we have done as a baseline. So at some point myself as a decision maker has to decide on which tools are appropriate for each each job but those tools in particular are particularly onerous and there's no reason why we couldn't do that at that stage. Thank you. I'll now move on to questions. I still can't say hey has first and then can't say the new lever. Thanks Tyler I mean to try some of us this is I understand that you're saying the Hackney Council design better achieves the Hackney Council aims and objectives than the alternatives including the one forward advance the night. Can you just give us five bullet points preferably in order but not necessarily as to why the Hackney Council scheme is better than the alternative we are being presented with tonight. So this is the five key points as to why you say add that the council scheme is better. Thank you. First of all it's simpler. I think the point was made about the simplicity of design. This is a core design principle road should be intuitive. It's greener there's more trees a lot more trees there's more sustainable urban drainage we haven't talked about climate action plan or the climate agenda but that is that is policy that I need to consider when making a decision. There is a lot more space for pedestrians for moving around there are a lot of pedestrians that we want to use this space. Hackney down station is nearby and is a key link we haven't talked about the fact that Hackney down station we're getting new lifts network rail are investing Hackney down station it will open people's horizons travel horizons and we want to make sure that people can get there in the best way possible. Just building on simplicity it is much simpler for pedestrians the pedestrian environment is much clearer in our design. There's also you know it is a town center scheme has been described as a town center scheme in all of the documents in the funding bid and that means that you know we are trying to attract football to the area we want to create space for cultural and civic use and creating a place a city place we have the opportunity to do that. Transportful London have a very useful road typology there's nine squares and there's two considerations place function a movement function and what we're trying to do our aims and objectives are to create a space that has more place function than movement function doesn't mean that we ignore the movement function but that's where on that sort of balance balancing exercise where the council has stayed at the same time objectives. Yes, follow up Councillor Hayes. To say is there an issue I did see in the report in terms of reference to psych mobs? Is there an issue in terms of vehicle mobility being more streamlined with the council design over the cycling design or not is that a factor? Like mobs and CCS are two variations of a similar umbrella concept the umbrella concept being cycle tracks are circulated around junction so that they go at the same time as pedestrians or in some variation of going at the same time as pedestrians we asked consultants to design what they thought and what we thought would be the best version of that type of design we called it a cyclops design cyclops just is cycle cycle optimized signals CCS is circulating cycle design the there are differences I don't want to minimize those differences but fundamentally we have considered an option that puts cycles off the carriageway and when we did so one of the considerations in putting forward that design would have been around it's not just about motor vehicle capacity a junction a junction gets modeled so that it operates for all users safely and if you have a junction that's way over capacity for motor vehicles it becomes unsafe for other users but that's not the overarching consideration between the two designs and I think council young but very well it actually isn't a decision between two designs is a decision between a huge number of designs we've considered well over 30 different designs it's a process so it's a sort of forced dichotomy in a way that's a big level thank you yeah my main question is really about the alignment with the council's policy framework but I just wanted to reflect on some points that you've just made around it being a place-making activity first and less focus on people moving through the the area and more about people want to stay you know part of the area obviously this is a junction which is very important for people to move through and we have an identified that it is incredibly dangerous currently and I think that this is a bit of a problem with the fact that the consultation lumped together the junction and the Amherst Road kind of plans because the difference there I think is quite stark and obviously the people who are cycling spend time in Hackney Central and Town Centre and use the train station so I think that's kind of a forced dichotomy in itself and you were also mentioning around vision zero elements not not being as prevalent here because there is no perfect result and I think this is very important for us to think about are we making perfect the enemy of the good and I think from a cycling point of view it does look like there's a vision zero design here which is good if not you know if not perfect it has seems to have a very high school by this metric at least but my main question is around the policy framework and line with council strategy so within the Hackney transport strategy one of the design principles for cycling infrastructure infrastructure area there's 7.2 and 7.7 7.2 says creating a quality environment for cycling is generally recognises providing accessible direct and convenient attractive safe and comfortable routes for experienced and less experienced cyclists alike this would link and provide access to key destinations such as the boroughs town centres and other destinations for employment education and leisure and 7.7 says in addition to continuing to implement the above mentioned initiatives the council will look to add to the quality of its cycle network and infrastructure primarily through the following methods why the transport seems including bus lanes bus priority measures on key boroughs or two roads and fully impartially segregated cycle lanes on busier roads and obviously this is very much a busier road I guess I guess my question is like how much was that considered as a as a part of it and although it's not part of the council's framework the Hackney Council's guidance on the main roads technical note 2023 to 2026 was saying that if it's not impossible then that kind of segregated cycling should be included so I just want to know if both of those have been really considered as part of this irregardless of the fact that it's a town making a space and the sort of consultation responses as well I think the answer is yes it has been considered and it points to the broader challenge of designing for a transport network a transport system it is not a series of well it is a series of schemes but we don't look at it when we set a transport strategy that sets the vision for the borough when we talk about creating cycle routes we talk about creating direct coherent connected demand led cycle routes through the borough and I'm really proud of what we've done since 2015 because we have a map in the office of what we said we would do in 2015 in 2018 in 2019 and we've delivered on those strategic cycle routes so we're in the process of completing the delston to the bridge cycle route and that's got segregated cycling along the route now what used to be called quietway 2 and is now called quiet c27 we've completed that in this time we've we're building cycle segregated cycle lanes on Queensbridge Road right now we've done green lanes with plans for seven sisters road so that that point is really important but that really is taking a network view and and it doesn't it doesn't suggest that the same solution is appropriate for every location we still have to apply judgment and local circumstances to to local schemes yeah the main road strategy it actually you've pulled out a general point around cycle tracks on main roads for the purpose of this meeting this is a bit bureaucratic but for the purpose of this meeting that note is a technical note that hasn't been through scrutiny it hasn't been adopted by cabinet has been a doctorate for council but on that point anyways there is general point in there yes that the ambition is a presumption towards cycle tracks on busy roads there is also three or four specific mentions of pembery junction the the author of that note clearly is thinking about pembery junction and it talks about place making and it talks about reducing traffic talks about cleaner air or trees doesn't talk about separate cycle lanes so I would normally say in a in a policy document if there's both a general statement and a specific statement the intention is the is the specific statement but I just want to correct something I didn't say that we have less of a consideration of safety at this location we have looked at the safety records of different types of junctions and if we are to look at LTN120 and for a look to look at the details of the junction assessment tool it is not an objective safety measure it is a it is a tool that designers have that actually indicates if you look in the scoring the scoring is about who would feel comfortable using the space and it's not a criticism of the tool I think it's a good tool but we do just need to be a little bit careful when we're talking about safety in absolute terms because what we really need to look at is we need to look at the history of other places and how they performed and that's and that's how we can make our our conclusions so we're putting forward a design or proposal that is based on other locations that have good safety records have improvements over time thank you can I start with the orange you want to come in or I've got other questions you go ahead so I just want to get my head around something so this this was done by vision designers isn't it over them in terms of the markings on them they were conducted by very experienced traffic engineers okay so where it makes reference to risks of collisions does that mean vehicles and bicycles or does that mean vehicles bicycles pedestrians road users it doesn't include motor vehicles so so where it says where it says minimal risk of collision is that between a cyclist and a pedestrian or is that a vehicle and a cycle it's between vehicles and cycle it's between vehicles and cycles okay yeah because I think we will admit that we have a responsibility in a diverse bar as such as this hackney to ensure that we have kind of respect and equality and equity in terms of those using the roads in terms of the roads and also the pavements but what I'm kind of struggling with is as you've just mentioned in terms of risk of collisions it's only taken into consideration vehicles and bicycles what about pedestrians because from the vision zero design it would appear that they will be a risk of collisions with pedestrians so the way this has been smart does not seem correct so if I could get some clarity on that that would be helpful please yeah maybe I can assist here I didn't do any assessments or any other designs on this so junction assessment tool is designed to be a gem check on this this high principle safety comfort practice and so on and it's a check and when you're looking at it there's lots of different things going on you look at each movement that's possible through the junction from a cycling perspective so for example if you cannot make a turn that scores a zero in fact it's a score and for this while it's quite a complicated matrix that you'll generate it is possible to it's never been published by it to travel England but there is one which includes pedestrians as well but the bigger risk in terms of people being injured and it has been around cyclists versus motor vehicles and that's what's been scored on those two different sheets as you've seen them okay I appreciate that but with what we said on what you've just said do you think that we it does need to be looked at in terms of the risk of collisions with pedestrians especially given the charity organisation for people and the submissions that they've put in regards to this I mean I probably can't speak on behalf of the cycling campaign but I think what we've got here is so in presentation I gave I gave a critique on the council preferred scheme as it is the cycling campaign have produced one of a number of different options you could design to this particular junction so I think in terms of my phone because it's been I think there's issues and the remains issues with council for designing for a cycling safety position just just I had a couple of points to that one is the road safety audit that we've mentioned before but the big risk that was taken with highlighted of that was the removal of the pedestrian crossing that has not been in the hackney design that has not been addressed at all we address it in our design so that's a major major benefit for pedestrians the other point is to look at stats you know where else has this been done and has it led to significant pedestrian injuries the answer is no but again we go back to what we're asking for is a rapid assessment by the expert who can look into this and give more information why would you not want more information from experts before making the decision so that's you know those are questions that they'll be able to answer as well but why not have it doesn't cost anything doesn't take much time you're losing nothing by doing that so preparing it you are all and make sure that the officers respond to to those points in due course so council said that and then I've got another question thanks yeah so it seems to me leaving aside the sort of respective merits of the various plans that seems to me that the sort of essence of this calling is about whether or not the council has taken on board the contributions that the cycling campaign have made as part of this process and specifically whether or not they've considered your proposal which goes into some detail so I'd like to have officers just about that just about the manner in which you engage with the report and the respect of evidence that came with it and how you engage with residents following the submission of that report and also in that in sort of context whether the late stage of which the report was produced had any bearing on the manner in which you may want to wanted to have engaged thank you thank you kind of if you could maybe respond to the point as well in relation to pedestrian crossing which I think is a particularly important one as well as the answering council said acts I think that is a very good point we're talking about the pedestrian crossing across what we refer to as Amrist Road west it's the section of Amrist Road west of the junction currently it's a two-stage junction so if you're crossing it as a pedestrian you have a 52nd wait and then you cross eastbound traffic sorry I'm in my mind I'm going north to south you cross eastbound traffic you wait another 50 seconds and then you cross to the side of the road if you're trying to get to the station you have another two-stage crossing to get to the station what we what we've replaced that with instead is a single-stage crossing from that same corner to the corner where the station is so if you're going to the station you have one stage instead of four but if but what if you're going to the south side of Amrist Road west that's the question well we've replaced what was a two-stage crossing with a two-stage crossing so you now cross to the to the point where the station is and then you cross dolston lane it's an all green phase for pedestrians so some pedestrians not all probably most but not all pedestrians but some we'll be able to do that two-stage crossing in one green man phase you can't do that now if you don't do that the signal cycle is 83 seconds so if you if you make a two-stage crossing to that point the the whole journey takes 83 seconds the current is is a 100 seconds or they're about so so we think that's a fair sort of trade-off pedestrians doing that journey which we recognize is not the main it isn't important crossing but it's not the main desire line for pedestrians but we've replaced the two-stage with a two-stage and we've massively enhanced the the route from say Pemberius State to the station and and that's a new crossing that wasn't there before so we've sort of moved the previous crossing I'm happy to take the second question yes it was just about how how officers have engaged with the proposal that's come in from a cycling campaign and just specifically thinking about well I suppose the part of the question that I'm asking is about the way that the safety considerations are on cycle it has to be as you've said multiple times contextualise within the fact that this is town centre budget primarily and so secondary considerations probably not the right way to put it but hopefully you understand what I'm saying so just within that context and given when it came in I'd just like to understand the level of engagement with HCC and the the way in which you engage with the evidence that was provided thank you um I'm sorry that we've come to a deadlock on the issue because you know we do have a a long-standing relationship um in terms of HCC providing challenge for our schemes and as I said in my presentation that's really welcome um I think we've met at least three times if not more since since January um one of the things that I said in this seat in July was that we would have a more structured approach to stakeholder management stakeholder engagement that's what we've been trying to do to make sure that all stakeholders have an opportunity to feed into the designs at different stages with a stakeholder list of about hundred um different stakeholders we we obviously can't meet with all of them three or four times I think in the colon there's there's quite a lot of evidence of of a dialogue between officers and the HCC fundamentally they put forward um a feedback in January for boring March in the winter and and we took that seriously we went away we commissioned we vested in designing up a version of that um feedback and then then we considered it in in depth we we've also just fully take on board other observations that they've made I think in the key decisions report we've listed out all of this all of the feedback that they provided and writing um and and then as I as I mentioned we've we've we've engaged with the concept that was put forward in in February we've also engaged in detail with a version of the design that you've seen today that was put forward to us in July and that included a meeting between myself and the HCC campaign before we before I made the decision and followed by email and so we have really thoroughly considered the information that they've put forward yeah there's a couple more questions and I was actually going to invite um the call-in to make a closing statement I don't know whether you could do it as part of that or you'll to really come back now we are running out of time that's why you can be if you didn't have you really want to hear about those okay so we did meet with uh with streets in and as Tyler said we appreciate you know the relationship we have with you and with offices um however the meeting um after the meeting July when we presented this first kind of draft of the scheme we offer to speak to you uh but you know to take that forward to take the kind of plans to work on them to take your feedback on board we didn't receive any any further communications on that nor did the designer until we really really really really really pushed to get a meeting before just before the decision was made a few days before that emailing everyone needed to think of getting press um you know the stories in the press pushing as hard as we possibly could in order to have a meeting before the decision was made so yes you did meet us in July after that there was there was nothing until basically the decision had been made and we did have a meeting um you know which failed to uh persuade you to so change but the lack of engagement between those two meetings the first one and then the one we really kind of forced your hand on um demonstrates that you weren't really looking at the design in detail there's a number of when you talk about the Cyclops design in the decision document there are a number of uh places where that is uh described as our design and it is not our design essentially you went away further uh to the consultants you asked the consultants to come up with a cycling um scheme they failed they failed you they came back with something that wasn't feasible we showed you told us that a cycling scheme was not feasible there we showed you that it was feasible and after we showed you that it was feasible we had no more um no more communications on that on that scheme thank you i don't want to long to and frang and allow you briefly to come back on that time then we're going to move on to some other questions so just just a point of fact i think when you say you you mean street scene i i only came back to in our meeting whenever that was September and then my email to you um i i don't remember putting in that email that steer failed on the design i'm quite confident yeah yeah now i i didn't say that i i considered i considered the option of a design like what was put forward in the feedback from the public in February um involving cycle tracks we considered that and then we decided on a number of grounds to favor the council's current proposal and we also we we were meeting other groups and and we have other people to meet and we did i did reply before making a decision so i appreciate that that was six weeks seven weeks after um you're last meeting with officers but the question was around how we engaged with you we've met three times engaged by email sometimes that's thank you for that exchange it's really helpful i think it's clarified some important points i mean um i've got one more question i'm going to bring in councilor binny love at cancer set up and then i'm afraid we've finished because we're doing it very well um so um just uh i've got one well just to make a sort of really brief statement i mean i think we've all sort of celebrated um happy success in cycling i think it's something that we that we all can be proud of i mean but i mean i would would also say that um you know the campaigners um and members of the public who are passionate about cycling and there are a number of people who have been passionate in relation to to their skin people who um i would see it feel generally no generally genuinely feel safer in certain designs of skin you know have taken the trouble to write into the council and i really hope that whatever the outcome of the hearing you know the the proceedings this evening that that you know the relationships can be restored and go back to their previous um you know um constructive um spirit um so my final question really is in relation to the the funding of this project um if the outcome of these evenings proceedings obviously i'm not second guessing anything um was to make a recommendation for reconsideration um and you know that in was a different design including a segregated cycle um scheme design how would that affect the funding available for this scheme and also the timetable um so you could briefly answer that no two more questions from members and then we'll go to something up thank you funding from central government must be spent to a timeline it's currently March 2026 um i think that's probably more of a question for the monitoring officer to be honest i think i think time pressures is one of the reasons by the monitoring officer can can reject a call in i think the fact that we're here this evening shows that that's been considered and there's sufficient reason to think that extra time can be absorbed within the process um i you know we have to flag that it would be a risk um but then we we don't know whether the outcome of the statutory consultation would be we don't know what other representations would be so that you know that process is built into a timeline and if it means more work for officers then we'll just do it yeah um what i can't do is i can't commit other agencies to a timeline after traveling within have a prioritization methodology um of how they'll prioritize requests their assistance um so that's that's something that's out of our control do you help us it can't simply be low work and then maybe cancels us directly to take those questions together and then we'll yeah so i um i want to draw some attention to the consultation responses um it seemed like at 8.54 people were saying that safety was an issue um overwhelmingly identified by participants as unsuitable for pedestrians and cyclists in its current orientation there's broad support for moves to report a prioritise this active travel and at 8.58 they preferred segregated cycleways um i also think at 8.96 there's a bit of an omission of there is no benefit for children um whereas obviously making more segregated cycle lanes would would probably improve uh children's access to cycling and this junction i also kind of don't understand about the design lines and we've talked about that multiple crossing um i still think people are going to want to cross that particular road at that particular point and we'll do so now without the benefit of any kind of crossing uh whereas before um the issue i think partly was that these islands also had these big barriers that stop people from um sort of permeating them in a sort of logical fashion but it also seems like there's um turnings which are now banned and therefore i think that the council's plans to me it says that there's more likelihood of cyclists acting in unpredictable ways going onto the pavement um and uh sort of moving around junction in in ways that are not intended um and also in terms of like clarity having having turns which are uh no longer allowed and um bicycle signage on painted on the ground that's going to be as as the um report says uh you know uh uh driven over by hgvs uh i'm not entirely convinced by this this clarity point um so i'm just wondering if if you can say anything around the consultation and and how you balance that is it just a question of it doesn't match with uh the sort of pre-decided strategy for the for the area points there so i'll let you take them but then we've got quick questions council said i can cast a patch and we both and not at all we don't have free imagined responses to consultations but we received over a thousand responses we received over a thousand online and then well over a hundred records of um attending a workshop which we tried to capture with with notes um i think the fact that we put that in the report chosen yeah absolutely people are some people are saying this and there's a diversity of opinion yeah and we put it in the report to be open and transparent of what people are saying about the scheme um making a decision to go one way or the other when when there's a difference of opinion doesn't doesn't mean we're we're not taking into consideration what they've said as i've said you know we got that feedback in February through that consultation exercise we went away and we considered in depth what that would look like for the space and um i'm sorry i've maybe missed just the plot and the other questions oh um will cyclists use the space in unpredictable way um it's it's you know it's it's a it's a cheap thing to say that cyclist will cycle on the pavement yeah sorry i'm not saying that you're saying that i'm saying it's a general rule we get a lot of correspondence on it yeah um sometimes there's illegal behavior on good infrastructure sometimes it's badly designed infrastructure that leads to more illegal behavior um and uh i i i can only point to evidence what happens at similar junctions to this and yeah if we look at a junction like Holburn's circus yeah which was pretty similar junction a bit more more traffic flows but kind of in the same the same realm it's an a road going through it's complicated junction with multiple for more than a four point junction um you know in 2014 the city of London does a scheme that's pretty similar to what we're proposing at pembery builds out the pavements reduce the traffic on several of the arms the bend turns another traffic restrictions and and they've seen positive safety outcomes um i don't know if they measure cycling on the pavement they aren't sure they get as much correspondence as we do um but i wouldn't but yeah in my professional judgment if you design if you design a space to be intuitive direct understandable it makes it easier for people to follow rules in the road i'll now move on she cuts a sit-back then cuts the catcher can those are the final question back to you and this is a question about the pedestrian experience and the feedback and from the consultation that you talk about a page 107 and 108 of the agenda back tonight um on the on the sort of safety risk presented to cyclists we've seen statistics and evidence about um the risks they face on the pedestrian side it looks like um references being made to the consultation responses to sort of feedback rather than events that's obviously very important and i'm not discounting that and shaping the design and the scheme and so on um but can you tell us about the evidence that you've looked at um from the pedestrian perspective in safety terms you have some Patrick as well because we do need to move on so with your question thank you chair council so let's meet up my question um can i ask and we've heard from Mr Holt's problem oh Holt's sorry um from the blind society um about the problems um the news that put in the cycle lanes in the cycle campaign one um what in what calls to a physically visually disabled people um did you have any other comments from any other disability group about um these about side four lines um in this in this in this next game and what the effects they will say would be on them thank you yeah thank you two questions that fit very well together pedestrians and disability groups yeah thank you for this one pedestrian conflict is picked up in the road safety on it and interestingly and this is where we get sort of tool clash actually sort of tool by different tools we use the road safety on it picks up and and it's been highlighted in the feedback as well and stakeholders but the road safety on it picks up potential recycle pedestrian conflict at a bit of cycle track we've put in temporary road and dust and lane east that that comes out as green on the junction assessment tool for cycles so we know that sort of we have to make a decision between different types of risk now my view on that particular um track is that it's a little bit away from the junction it's a simpler arrangement it's one track you know we can put in um tactile or other other materials that indicate where that is in in a way that hopefully we'll consult the relevant people um yeah hopefully is is is a workable design for people with visual impairments um but the answer to your questions I guess picked up the road safety on it the second question was around other disability groups yes in the key decision I think we have a responsive disability backup which is the hackney local hackney disability group and I don't have it in front of me to pick up exactly what they've said but I I seem to remember that was generally positive towards the benefits of the scheme um so that now concludes um the end of the discussion point um I'm now going to invite the calling councillors to to make any um final point see if you can stick to two three minutes that would be really welcoming if not having being covered it can cast around yes um chair I just wanted to ask whether or not our other witnesses might be able to make any kind of summary points I know that Claudia would like to say a couple of things in the conclusion after having served me this I'm in total stitch two three minutes if that's possible say he's going to go first yeah yep thank you so I just wanted to ask a couple of things so first of all I wanted to stress that this is the so about the accident that I failed to mention earlier it happened at 2am and I know that the scheme will reduce traffic drastically but when I had my accident there wasn't no traffic whatsoever it was just one car I mean so um I just wanted to stress that and then um obviously I am no one to comment on the technicalities of the scheme um I just wanted to add something as someone who nearly lost their life on the junction um I appreciate all the sympathy and I appreciate the commiseration but I feel I struggled to take it to heart because when the new scheme and if the new scheme is approved I will still be terrified to cycle through the junction and a lot of people that I know will cycle will be terrified to start to cycle through the junction and I wonder what you're going to say to the next person who will come here and tell you a very similar story to the one I told you tonight knowing that you could have passed a scheme that was safer thank you. And thank you for the opportunity to sum up so just just stress as I did at the beginning pool in and this pool in you only have to agree with one point that we're making so if you have any doubt that we need to reconsider these designs I'm for you to refer this to council or cabinet for further discussion so the Hackney Council design is relying on a reduction of 35% of traffic which we're talking about about 16,000 reducing to 11,000 vehicles that's still a huge amount of traffic on our roads and it's not a safe level and it's not conducive to a safe place or a town centre destination this is a junction and the risks of it must be considered as time year was just really eloquently described it will not eliminate the risk of her experience and the lack of assessment of cycle safety I think is glaring this would also call in points of relevance matters being ignored and not being in the best impressive residence. Tonight we've heard a mission of this being a pedestrian focus design with lack of assessments pool consideration of cycle safety which makes the commitment to vision zero hollow and dangerous and the leveeing up mid which is now being described as not being cycle focused yet it was asked for hacking cycling campaign support so that I think talks to the point of a lack of clarity of aims and design outcomes. Andrew and Vincent spoke about their concerns that they did not want illegal uncontrolled traffic on the roads we totally agree we don't want that either and that's why we think that a design that separates cyclists and pedestrians and cars and has specific areas for each of those modes is much safer as it does in the vision zero design we can have a design that is safer for cyclists and pedestrians with features that ensure that people move through the junction safely this vision zero design is backed by living streets it's clear that there is a real concerns presented today and we are not asking you to design over the decide over the design we are simply demanding for safety for residents children young people and an independent assessment to be made so we're asking you to refer this to active travel England with who can do this quickly and we want to avoid any doubt we want everyone to leave this through knowing we've done absolutely everything we can to make this a safe junction so we want you to refer this to cabinet or to council to call for an active travel England review so we have no doubt thank you I don't tell I don't really want to make any final points I have to be once I haven't been covered yet but thanks I do feel like I have to correct a point of fact in the call and document this is called a circulating cycle design and it was relevant in the call and document because there was some criticism of us using the phrase cyclops I'm not aware of any document that refers to a vision zero junction design I understand the point being made but what we're trying to say is we agree on the underlying principle of trying to make this space safer by reducing traffic it's not just about the traffic reduction the traffic reduction enables us to physically transform the space to slow traffic down by having junctions that having the junction narrowed so that vehicles cannot take the turns at that speed and also putting forward a scheme that's an excellent place and excellent pedestrians I just want to say once again thank you very much for coming I'm terribly sorry about your experience and I appreciate that you know this this forum isn't isn't going to be one where we you know we can address that appropriately and and I do want to finish on saying you know I understand some people don't feel comfortable cycling that is something that we need to address as well I think Councillor Young did address that in her point about the wider cycling network and it's something that we look forward to working with you on developing the future and now during this part of the meeting to conclusion and we're going to be retiring for our deliberations and certain sort of panel members and tracing yeah we can use everyone else welcome to stay in the chamber if that is what we want to do thank you everyone for waiting I'm sorry there's even some seasons have gone on so long but it was important to everybody's voices we're now getting to the decision of the scrutiny panel on tonight's call in I don't know whether you want anything about the process I'm sorry I've got a lift yeah so yeah so we're just going to call a vote as I outlined at the beginning there are in broad terms two options that is either to uphold the decision of decision-maker or to uphold the call in so I'm going to now do a role call of councillors and if you and if we're upholding the call in the council will then state which option he or she wishes to proceed with you know in terms of reverting it to the decision maker or to the cabinet or to Paul council so let's start with council Benny Leverk I vote to uphold the call in and to refer the decision to full council as I believe this breaches the policy framework obviously with the recommendation that they consider more evidence thank you much and now move on to the next person alphabetically which council come way I'd like to uphold the decision of the decision maker yes thank you okay because I hay hast say the set up hold the resolution and council welcome Lauren I'll go to Lauren I'm say sorry that's all right I'm uphold the original decision of the decision maker Councillor Patrick I have a hold the original decision of the decision maker you very much then council said act I vote to uphold the original decision yeah um I think that's a clear majority so if I've understood correctly I don't need to vote other chair unless is a casting vote which I don't think's needed so the conclusion of tonight's proceedings is that we're upholding the original decision of the decision maker on this occasion so thank you very much everyone for attending and contributing to a really really good discussion thank you I haven't been notified of any other business so I now conclude the meeting closed thank you chair thank you
Summary
The Scrutiny Panel voted to uphold the decision made by the Assistant Director of Street Scene, Mr Tyler Linton, to proceed to statutory consultation on the Amherst Road and Pembury Circus transformation scheme. The decision was challenged by Councillors Garbert, Davis, Premru, Turbot, Delif and Route, on four procedural grounds, but after hearing evidence from both sides the Panel voted to uphold the original decision.
Pembury Circus Junction Design
The most significant point of contention was the design of the junction at Pembury Circus. The Calling Councillors objected to the Council's design because it continues to mix motor traffic with cyclists, and does not include separate cycle tracks. This aspect of the decision was called-in on the following grounds:
- Relevant matters have been ignored
- Consideration and evaluation of alternatives and reasons for decisions.
The Councillors argued that the Council's plan, which aims to improve pedestrian safety and experience and to enhance the town centre feel of the area, does not adequately take into account the safety of cyclists. In particular, the Councillors felt that the Council failed to properly consider an alternative design, known as a Circulating Cycle Stage, or CCS, that was prepared by a traffic engineer commissioned by the Hackney Cycling Campaign. The Councillors argued that:
The repeated shifting of objections and the absence of meaningful dialogue to explore or understand the design suggest an unwillingness to seriously engage with the CCS designs. It suggests an unwillingness to consider new information and new plans, and rather a determination to remain rigidly to the initial design regardless of significant alternative benefits.
The CCS was presented to the Council in July, but the Councillors felt that the officers did not adequately consider it.
The Council's scheme will remove a signalised pedestrian crossing on Amherst Road, which is a key route to Hackney Downs Station. The Calling Councillors argued that this would have a negative impact on pedestrians, who would attempt to continue to cross at this location despite the lack of a formal crossing. The CCS design includes a signalised crossing at this location.
A speaker from the National Federation of the Blind UK argued against the CCS design, due to the potential conflicts between pedestrians and cyclists that the segregated cycle tracks would create. He argued that visually impaired people would be unable to avoid cyclists travelling at speed along the cycle paths, and that the increased use of tactile paving in the CCS design would be disorienting for visually impaired people.
Blind people using white canes and their guide dogs wouldn't be able to detect the cycle lane unless it had at least 60 mm curve with high curves preferred, with rock curves to allow wheelchair access and and off the pavement. There is a grave danger that they and their guide dogs will likely walk into the bike lane.
In response, Mr Linton argued that the Council's design represents a better balance between the needs of different user groups, and that it will improve safety for cyclists compared with the existing situation. He argued that:
We have to weigh up different considerations and needs based on technical data, professional judgment, several different guidelines ... and most importantly informed by public engagement.
He stated that the Council's scheme will reallocate road space away from motor vehicles, resulting in a reduction of traffic of around 35%, and that the narrower carriageways will slow traffic down. The Council's scheme will also simplify pedestrian crossings, making them more accessible and intuitive.
Mr Linton argued that the Council's design better meets the overall aims of the project:
To arrive at this proposal, we've followed a robust and open process, not just in terms of technical assessments and quality assurance, but also crucially public engagement and listening.
The Council's project assurance framework was used to evaluate the different options, including the CCS design, and Mr Linton stated that he decided to proceed with the Council's design based on a balance of factors.
We need to consider guidance in the whole, and we need to consider different guidancees. Local transport note 120, which is Department for Transport's most current guidance on cycling, refers to other guidancees in itself. It also contains a chapter on planning for cycling, and it puts into context much of what's in that document as part of a wider process in the lifecycle of planning a cycling network. It's only right to look at that document, that guidance, in its whole form, as well as in the context of other other documents.
In response to questions from the Panel, Mr Linton stated that the Council's scheme has a better safety record than other similar schemes, and that it is not the case that a Circulating Cycle Stage design would necessarily result in fewer accidents. He stated that the Council's design would be simpler and more intuitive for pedestrians, and that it would include more trees and sustainable urban drainage.
Levelling Up Funding Bid
The scheme at Pembury Circus is being funded by a grant of £19 million from the Levelling Up Fund. This aspect of the decision was called in on the following grounds:
- A presumption in favour of openness
- Clarity of aims and desired outcomes
The Calling Councillors argued that the scheme, as designed, does not meet the commitments that the Council made in its Levelling Up Fund bid. The bid stated that the project would support walking, cycling, and bus priority. However, the Council has subsequently stated that the project was primarily a town centre scheme, and not a safe cycling scheme. The Calling Councillors argued that this change in emphasis is not consistent with the commitments made in the Levelling Up Fund bid, and that the public were misled about the nature of the scheme. They argued that the Council should request that Active Travel England conduct a rapid independent review of the two designs, and that the Council should agree to implement the scheme that Active Travel England marks as its preferred scheme based on national design guidance.
The Council responded that it had been open and transparent about the aims of the scheme from the beginning, and that the Levelling Up Fund bid explicitly referred to a town centre scheme. The Council also stated that the scheme will improve cycling safety, despite not including segregated cycle tracks, and that the scheme is designed to encourage active travel, in line with the aims of the Levelling Up Fund.
Statutory Consultation
The meeting concluded with a vote to uphold the Assistant Director's decision, which means that the Council will now proceed to the statutory consultation stage. The statutory consultation will give members of the public a further opportunity to comment on the Council's proposed design, and for any new evidence to be considered.
Attendees
Documents
- Agenda frontsheet Monday 11-Nov-2024 19.00 Scrutiny Panel agenda
- Public reports pack Monday 11-Nov-2024 19.00 Scrutiny Panel reports pack
- item 4 coversheet Call-in
- 1. Scrutiny Panel MO Report - Amhurst Road_Pembury Circus
- Appendix 1 CE 382 Call-In Request Form.docx
- Appendix 2 - Officer Key Decision Report - Amhurst Road and Pembury Junction Transformation other
- Appendix A 1
- Appendix B