Transcript
Good evening, my name is Claire Farrier, I'm the Councillor for East Finchley and I'm chair
of this planning committee. Thank you all for attending. I'll first of all ask members
of the committee to introduce themselves, followed by the planning officers, the legal
officer and the governance officer. So if we could start, Councillor Cowlick, if you
could start.
Councillor Cowlick, Collindale South Ward.
Councillor Tim Roberts, Underhill Ward.
Richard Barnes, Barnet Vale Ward.
Councillor Lucie Groom, I'm substituting for Councillor Ellet Simbach of Mill Hill Ward.
Thank you.
Dave Prince, Deputy Planning Manager.
Andrew Turner, Planner.
Lesley Felton, Planning Manager.
Dalia Sarcotero, Planning Officer.
Tina Faraghi, Legal Officer.
Georgina Wills, Governance Officer.
Can everybody hear okay at the back of the room? No? Can we check the speakers again?
We'll just check the speakers, make sure that they're all working properly.
Right, so if I can ask everybody, members and officers and anybody coming to speak to
make sure you speak directly into the microphone so that hopefully they can be picked up and
heard properly.
And for members of the public, we ask that you remain seated throughout the meeting unless
you're called to the table to address the committee.
And please note that meetings may be recorded and broadcast as allowed for in law by the
council and by attending, either in person or online, you may be picked up on recordings.
The recordings I will say are covered by our privacy notice which can be found on our website.
So the procedure is for each application, the planning officer will first of all present
the application, each speaker will then have three minutes to address the committee and
the governance officer will inform you when there's one minute left.
Following that, the committee will have the opportunity to ask questions of the speakers
and of officers and then following discussion, the committee will determine the application
and I will announce the committee's decision.
So going on to the agenda, we have the minutes of the last meeting.
So we agreed the minutes, so I'll just sign those.
Absence of members, as Councillor Grewing said, he is substituting for Councillor Conway
this evening and Councillor Greenspan has sent apologies for not being here.
Do any members have a declaration of any interest in the members?
Sorry, Chair, I'm substituting Councillor Eliot Simbach of Mill Hill.
No, sorry, I think Councillor Eva Greenspan, because Councillor Eliot Simbach was substituting
for Councillor Greenspan, Eva Greenspan, so now I'm substituting Councillor Eliot Simbach.
Right, the formal notice was that you were substituting for Councillor Conway, but you
were substituting for one of them and the other one has sent apologies.
That's ok, that's fine, thank you.
Are there any declarations of interest? Members? No dispensations granted, therefore no report
from the monitoring officer. An addendum to the report has been sent out
and published this afternoon with several amendments on items, so I hope people are
aware of that and officers will refer to that when they make their presentations.
We are going to move to the first item, which is 310 Mays Lane.
Good evening, everyone. I present to you an application for single
storey side extension, single storey front extension, plus porch canopy, new porch canopy
to side elevation, alterations to roof including raising the height of the eaves with associated
cycle parking and landscaping at 310 Mays Lane.
This is the aerial view. The site location plan.
The site photographs. This is the rear, the entrance to the site.
This picture is taken from within the site showing the car park, the front elevation,
the side elevation facing the green bird, the side elevation facing Mays Lane, existing
ground floor plan with parking, the existing ground floor plan, existing first floor plan,
existing roof plan, existing front elevation, existing rear elevation, the existing side
elevation, the section plan, the proposed ground floor plan with parking, the proposed
ground floor plan. This is the existing in comparison with the proposed aerial view.
Proposed first floor plan, proposed roof plan, the proposed front elevation, the proposed
rear elevation, proposed side elevation, proposed section and the proposed CGI.
The key considerations in this application is that the lawful use of the building is
community use. The proposal will increase internal space to accommodate a larger footprint
within the same views. The proposal involves extensions that will result in 16 percent
increase in volume over existing. The proposal will utilize the existing 160 car parking
spaces. Conditions have been attached in relation to amplified noise, installation of appropriate
sound proofing, number of people visiting the site and hours of operation. An activity
management plan will also be required to be submitted in writing to the local planning
authority. The application is therefore recommended for approval subject to conditions. Thank
you. Sorry, could you just run through what is on the addendum and confirm the changes
that have been made on the addendum? Within the addendum, amended condition six is the
hours of use. The premises will be used from Monday to Friday between the hours of seven
to ten. On Saturday the premises will be used between the hours of eight to ten and on Sunday
the premises will be used between ten and six except on the festival of Ramdan and Muharram
when these restrictions shall not apply. On these days the premises and use shall be used
and take place within the hours of seven and twelve. The amendment to condition seven stays
the same. We've just changed the wording a bit. We'll accept, we've taken off except
for the occasion. Condition nine has been amended. The sound insulation is the second
paragraph has been changed. The sound insulation shall ensure that the levels of noise generated
were from the halls as measured or predicted within the habitable rooms of the nearest
neighboring dwelling shall be no higher than thirty-five decibels from seven to eleven
and thirty dB from eleven to seven AM. Few extra conditions have been added. Condition
twenty refers to amplified music. No loud speaker, microphones or amplified music are
to be erected or used outside the building. Condition twenty-five refers to noise report
for community center use. Before development commences a report should be carried out when
approved acoustic consultant and submitted to the local planning authority for approval
that assesses the likely noise impacts from the development with regards to its use as
a community center. The report shall also clearly outline mitigation measures for the
development to reduce these noise impacts to acceptable levels. It should include all
calculations and baseline data and be set out that the planning authority can fully
audit the report and critically analyze the contents and recommendations. The approved
measures shall be implemented in the entirety before any of the use of occupied and the
use commences. Condition twenty-two refers to noise limiter. The applicant shall install
a noise limiter of noise frequencies from eight HZ to twenty KHZ to control amplified
music and speech before commencement of use of the community center. The noise limiter
will cut out amplified noise at a level to ensure residents are not disturbed by amplified
music as agreed by the local planning authority. The noise limiter will be electrically connected
to all electrical sockets in the community center where amplified noise is to be made.
All amplified music and speech shall be played through a noise limiter. Windows and doors
shall be kept closed whilst the hall is in usage. Condition twenty-three, noise mitigation,
sorry, noise management plan. Before the development hereby permitted is first occupied, a noise
management plan shall be submitted to the local planning, sorry, local authority for
approval and the use implemented thereafter in accordance with the details approved. Condition
twenty-four, noise mitigation and ventilation. All windows and doors shall be fixed closed
or kept shut whilst there is any singing or music or amplified speech or music within
the building, the halls are in use. All ventilation and cooling for the proposed development shall
be provided by mechanical ventilation. The details of the mechanical ventilation shall
be provided to and agreed in advance by the local planning authority. There is an amendment
to the public consultation. So the initial consultation took place. We had sent out further
letters on the second of July. A further consultation took place on the thirtieth of July and we
received a total of hundred correspondences which had been broken down into one representation,
three letters of support and ninety-six numbers of objections. The objections have been summarised,
I mean they're still there, it's not too much, I don't want to go through all the objections,
you want me to read them all out? That's fine, just assuring members of the public that this
has been taken into account. Originally the report was not clear that there had been so
many objections and have a summary of it so that is now in the addendum. Thank you. Thank
you. Right, we have two speakers on this item, Rigit Grant and Gina Theodorou. I don't know
which order you wish to speak in. Are either of us here? Mrs Grant, Mrs Theodorou? One
of you is here. That's fine. Thank you, if you can take a seat. Switch the microphone
on, there's a face image at the bottom. That's it, the microphone's on. So if you can then
introduce yourself and instead you have three minutes to speak and you'll be given a warning
when you have one minute left. I'm Gina Theodorou and I'm a local resident. Can you speak into
the microphone? Sorry, Gina Theodorou, I'm a local resident. Sorry, has the time started
because I haven't started talking? That close. Okay, thank you. Can you hear me now? Thank
you. Okay. Are you going to let me know when to start? Yes. This proposal is misleadingly
referred to as a 16% increase in volume, when in fact this is a single storey building being
developed into two storeys by raising the ceiling of an unusable loft storage space.
This will double the usable floor area and capacity. It's an unacceptable increase in
the scale of the building that impacts the amenity of neighbours, including imposing
side elevation views and flat block windows, and adds further harm to the green belt. The
National Planning Policy Framework is clear that disproportionate extensions over and
above the original size of the building are inappropriate in the green belt and set a
dangerous precedent. The intensification of use from doubling the building capacity is
not appropriate or sustainable in this location, where transport connections are poor leading
to a reliance on cars and local roads cannot sustain further traffic and lack footpaths.
Local infrastructure cannot cope with the scale of development and intensification of
use of this proposal. The proposed condition on soundproofing to limit sounds is a variation
on the existing condition, which actually prohibits all sound at neighbouring properties.
This change in the original conditions, which was set to satisfy the special circumstances
of the planning permission mitigating harm to green belt, is a change in the definable
character of the use. This is sufficient to trigger material change of use amounting to
development and requires new planning consent. The current use of the building, even before
new intensification, is substantially greater in terms of attendance, frequency and regularity
than by the previous owners, even at peak capacity. This previous limited use of the
site was a material consideration in the special circumstances that justified the harm to green
belt. This exception certainly wasn't given with the intent of future intensification
of use, which would further harm green belt. The planning application next door was refused
following evidence of great crested newts in the pond on this site. The council stated
in the appeal that a traditional GCN survey is required before a mitigation licence can
be approved or permission granted. The same applies to this site and without it, councillors
are not in a position to approve this application this evening. Community use is not in the
same category of class use as place of worship, contrary to what the planning officer is suggesting.
Councillors must be satisfied that the lawful use remains the same, otherwise a change of
use must be granted before this permission can be given and before any further activities
are permitted. Reviewing the activities plan, for instance, before determination, not after,
as suggested by the conditions, will allow councillors to establish lawful use of the
proposed activities as well as the impact of intensification. Councillors therefore
don't have the information they need to approve this application without it being a breach
of natural justice. You must either refuse it tonight or defer until you have the information
you need. And following breaches of the current conditions, including noise, late night activity
and planning permission, this council must provide a programme and process to ensure
all conditions, lawful use and limitations are monitored and enforced. Please consider
the substantial local opposition as evidenced by the 90 odd objections when making your
decision tonight. And thank you for allowing me to address the committee.
Thank you, any questions? Thank you, it would be good to please continue. Could you just
say where you live and the impacts? I live opposite the village green which is
less than 200 metres from the building. Thank you. Any further questions? No, I don't think
we have any questions, thank you. Is Brigitte Grant here? No, then we have the agent Joseph
Oakden. If you can turn the microphone on please. Introduce yourself and you have three
minutes to speak and be given a warning when you have one minute left.
Great, thank you. Good evening members and thank you for the
opportunity to address you this evening. My name is Joe Oakden and I am a planning consultant
speaking on behalf of the Centre for Islamic Enlightening, the applicants. I'm joined this
evening by representatives of the centre as well as our project architects. I would personally
like to thank your officers for their work over the course of the last year through both
pre-application and application stages of the project and I would commend them for their
well written report and their presentation this evening. The Centre for Islamic Enlightening
is a registered charity established in 1989. The organisation provides a variety of educational,
cultural and social programmes for the local community. The centre has been operating from
a space in Cricklewood for over recent years and are a well valued part of the community.
The centre have, however, been looking for a more permanent home for a number of years.
In 2023, the opportunity to acquire the property at 310 May's Lane arose. The building at 310
May's Lane was constructed in the 1990s and used as a place of worship associated with
the Church of the Breveren until it would gain service to their acquirements and sold
to the current owners. The applicant will use the building to continue their work providing
inclusive community engagement programmes within the London Borough of Parnet. The existing
building is in need of renovation and upgrade to make it fit for purpose to meet the applicant's
needs. This includes extensions to allow for separate spaces to be provided for males and
females required for cultural reasons. These extensions are those which are the subject
of the application before you this evening. The proposed works have been developed in
close consultation with your officers through the pre-application process and are highly
sensitive to the surrounding context, with the overall height of the building retained
as existing. The proposals do not involve a change of use and due to their nature and
siting the extensions would not impact neighbouring residents' daylight, sunlight, privacy or
outlook. Whilst a change of use is not proposed, the applicant is aware that putting the site
back into use has brought some concern from residents relating to noise impacts. Whilst
there are no current planning restrictions on hours of use on numbers of visitors to
the site at any one time, the applicant is committed to ensuring the considerate use
of the building such that the neighbours will not be impacted. The applicant has therefore
agreed to planning conditions through this application in order to ensure the appropriate
management and ongoing use of the site. This follows liaison with the centre and neighbours
to requiring the site and the conditions have been developed in close consultation with
your officers. The proposed development presents an opportunity to enhance and preview life
into this community centre building and allow the Centre for Islamic Enlightening to continue
their community work in the London Borough of Bournet from a long-term, fit-for-purpose
home. Overall, the proposals are one which are in conformity with the borough's adopted
development plan as well as the MPPF and is a development which should deliver undoubted
public and community benefits. Thank you again for the opportunity to speak to you and I
would welcome any questions you have.
Thank you. Questions? Councillor Barnes.
Good evening. You've said you don't consider there to be a change of use. Can you clarify
how much it is useful at present and what the usage in the future is predicted to be?
Yeah, so as I mentioned in my speech, the centre or the building was used by the Church
of the Brethren previously which falls in class F1 and the ongoing use will fall within
the same use class. In terms of the use itself, so the centre will have various events that
go on during the week, so weekly events, and they're typically up to a maximum of 250
people which is restricted by the condition in the consent. There is an exception where
on Ramadan there will be up to 350 people and then an annual festival, a ten day festival
named Muharram and that will be a maximum of 800 people.
Is that 800 people over the period, not at the same time?
So that's at any one time, so that's a maximum number.
And are they using the building now at all yet?
So the centre has acquired the site towards the end of last year, this year. They did
have an event over Muharram this year which has been, yeah, they have been using the centre.
Sorry to press you, and do you know how many people maximum sort of used it this year?
I can't say I know the exact numbers, unfortunately. I do have members of the centre here with
me tonight who may be able to clarify.
Thank you.
My question has been covered, so thank you.
Thank you. Councillor Roberts, next.
Just want to clarify, does the building now, as will be developed if this is passed, does
it overlook any neighbouring residential buildings?
No, so the windows that are being proposed on that side elevation on the right there,
on the top image that you can see, so they're essentially facing May's Lane and the properties,
the nearest neighbouring properties are to the east, which is to the right of that top
image.
I don't know if we've got the rear elevation, which might be useful as well, yeah, so that's
the rear elevation which faces the neighbouring properties, so there's no windows on that
side.
So there's no overlooking?
No, no overlooking.
Or necessarily noise, because there's no access points for people attending meetings there?
So the access point…
There are no access points from the rear of the building?
Correct, there'll be no access from that rear, no. All access will be from the front
of the property, which is off May's Lane.
Okay, thank you.
Councillor Curlick.
Yeah, just some clarification please. The amended condition 7 says no more than a maximum
of 250 persons shall be present on the site in connection with the use and ancillary activities
at any one time, which is fine, but then it says an exception is during the period of
Ramadan when no more than a maximum of 350 people shall be present on the site.
I think you gave us a higher number for Ramadan, but finally, and once a year during the occasion
of Muharram, the centre will have a ten consecutive day programme with a peak attendance of 800.
Can you just clarify that you agree to these conditions?
We at the applicant agree to those conditions, yes.
Thank you.
Right, there's no further questions, thank you very much.
Thank you.
Any questions for the officers or further comments?
Councillor Curlick.
Yes, I'm assuming that a traffic management assessment has been carried out, and what's
the recommendation of the officers?
The highways officers have been consulted and they've raised no objections to, because
they have existing 160 car parking spaces and they're going to be using those.
So they've raised no objections in terms of highways.
But we do have an activity management plan in place which will be given to highways,
so they'll be able to manage the amount of traffic and cleaning of the site and everything
is one of the conditions.
Okay, sorry, I also noticed that one of the objections was that already people parking
on the side of the road, will that be taken into consideration?
Yes, we have one, sorry, yes, so I have discussed this with highways.
But when we assess highways, the car parking, the state of how many car parking spaces have
been provided, it's in line with policy.
In fact, there isn't exactly a set policy for non-residential, but just because there
are cars parking on the pavement, doesn't necessarily mean that they would be visiting
the site.
So that's what's been relayed to me by the highways officers.
Thank you.
Mr Roberts.
Just want to check.
Are officers satisfied that the sound management provisions that have been put in the conditions
are going to be sufficient for this larger attendance than has previously been the case,
for instance?
Yes, so today, this morning, we did have a very long meeting with the environmental health
officer, the manager.
And we've, as you've seen, we've added numerous amount of conditions just to restrict any
kind of amplified noise, you know, emitting from the, from the whole.
So yes, we are very happy with the conditions that we have attached.
Yeah, I would just say that there's, there is no change of use with this application
and therefore the additional conditions on the use of it, on number of people attending,
on the management of any noise that comes from there, are to do with that use of it,
which is already, you know, which is already what the premises is used for.
Therefore, I think the applicant, by bringing to those conditions on their use, are showing
willingness to work with local residents in using the place properly and not causing nuisance.
Councillor Barnes.
Just one other question.
The resident raised the question of environmental concerns about wildlife, has that been looked
into adequately, do you think?
Yes, we did look into that, we've spoken to the ecologists as well.
The issue basically, in a nutshell, is that because they had to provide a 10% net gain
– so they had, they wanted to provide that via, I mean, through landscaping around the
pond and that's where the newts existed.
So since conversations with ecologists and we have now offset, they've moved away from
the, from the pond, and there is also a condition, a precautionary condition in place, so which
they have, which would sort of mitigate any harm to the newts or any species.
Which condition is that, I'll tell you which condition.
Was the pond visible on any of the plans or anything?
No, I didn't even know it was there.
No, okay, thank you.
Councillor Kelly.
Thank you.
Has any evidence of bats been found?
Has any evidence of bats been found?
No, so we did carry a bat survey and there was no evidence of bats to be found.
I'm sorry we're not able to take comments from the floor, the officers will not respond.
If you go to, I think the point is somewhere here, so the ball is around here.
Is there any further comments?
So you finished your comments on bats.
Any further comments?
If not, we shall go to a vote.
The officers are recommending approval for this application, all those in favour of approval.
For those not in favour of approval, Councillor Gordon, are you voting?
You're not voting, one says four in favour, one not voting, therefore this application
is approved.
Thank you very much.
So if members of the public who are here for this application could leave fairly quietly
so we can carry on with the meeting please.
And we're moving on to 97 to 101, the Broadway Mill Hill.
Right thank you, if you can carry on now to the next item.
Can we carry, thank you members of the public.
We're going to move on to the next item, 97 to 101, the Broadway Mill Hill.
Good evening Councillors, is everybody able to hear me okay at the back?
Excellent.
Good evening Councillors, and this evening I'll be presenting the application 97 to 101,
the Broadway in Mill Hill.
The application is for a change of use of a former restaurant, Class E, to a mixed restaurant
and hot food takeaway use, so generous, and associated external works including plant.
External works include alterations to the shop front, replacement awnings, rear alterations
and HVAC system incorporating enclosure.
This is the location plan.
The site is located here along Mill Hill, the Broadway, so just for kind of openness.
It was brought to the Council's attention by Councillors who will be presenting, I understand
later, that there is a school which is located here.
So it's St Martin's School, a small independent school of I believe 76 pupils who age between
3 and 11, according to their website, and it's approximately 321 metres from the school,
which is not strictly in compliance with policy E9 of the London Plan, which requires hot
food takeaways to be at least 400 metres walking distance from the site, however I'm happy
to go into any more detail at the end if you have questions.
Here are some site photos, so this is the front elevation of the application site, and
the application, these are some rear photos, the top one is taken from the first floor
level just to give some context as to what the existing rear looks like, and the bottom
one here from outside the site just to see what the rear of the property looks like.
Here is the proposed ground floor plan, as you can see here, this is the restaurant use
where people are proposed to sit down and eat.
This is the delivery driver entrance here, which as we can see on a future elevation
has a separate entrance, and this is the restaurant back of house and kitchen area in there.
And to the rear here is parking for staff members only.
Here is the plant layout to the rear of the property, here's a three dimensional image
of that, the existing and proposed elevations are here, so the existing shown at the top
and the proposed existing at the bottom.
Some key considerations, on balance it's considered acceptable on principal grounds being in compliance
with Barnet's adopted an emerging planning policy and the London Plan 2021 and other
material considerations, that's including the other consideration, the school being
on balance acceptable.
Following amendments to the facade, the council's urban design officer was supportive of the
scheme, and following additional information and points of clarification, the council's
highway officer supported the scheme subject to conditions and a section 106 agreement.
So subject to conditions, the council's environmental health officer was supportive of the scheme
and subject to conditions, the Metropolitan Police design out crime officer was also satisfied
with the proposed scheme.
The application is recommended for approval subject to conditions and a section 106 agreement.
I'll happily take any questions, thank you.
Thank you.
We have several people who are registered to speak, we have one Mark Chalfin I think
who is speaking.
Is there anybody else here from this list who wishes to speak, as well as Mr Chalfin?
No, that's fine, Mr Chalfin, if you'll come forward then.
Hi everyone, Mark Chalfin, I'm a resident of Mill Hill, I live around 200 metres away
from the site as the cray flies on Newcombe Road.
The objection that the residents face have been kind of entered on the website and I
believe that around 95% of residents have objected to the site.
The main objections will relate to the parking issues on the high street.
The issue that we see is that the site won't have any additional parking and the fact that
this is a new takeaway and it's a double site, the amounts of additional traffic and the
amount of footfall that will go into this new restaurant will increase and will then
spill into the roads, including the road where the school is as well, so apart from having
additional traffic on the roads, the subsequent roads will be impacted as well, including
the road that I live in personally.
The establishment that wishes to kind of use the site will have drivers using the kind
of apps, the deliveries and Uber Eats and so on and so forth, however there will be
a considerable footfall for both diners who will be eating in and then the people will
be taking their food and drink away.
We've seen within Costa Coffee where there are people who are taking food away that they
will park on those yellow lines and that then causes additional traffic.
Further to that, in the planning, the organisation has listed the times of delivery and they
will align with the busy timeframes on the high street, so they will align when parents
are taking their children to and from school, which again will create more traffic in the
roads.
You raised the points around the schools, so I won't raise that again, but again that
is an issue for the residents.
I've got no further points, but we have raised issues on the website as well.
Thank you for your time.
Thank you.
Questions?
Councillor Roberts.
This is replacing a previous fast food outlet.
No, it's not replacing a previous fast food outlet, it is replacing a restaurant.
So it was a Prezzo previously, there was no kind of app drivers and people went just like
picking food up.
Sorry, a restaurant, yes.
Yes, so this is the only dwelling I believe of that size on the high road that will have
a takeaway facility.
So there has been considerable footfall traffic for people going to the restaurant and leaving
whatever hours the restaurant was previously operating from.
It will be, but the footfall will increase because people will be picking up food and
will be taking away.
If you're going to a restaurant then you'll be spending an hour, hour and a half there
and the amounts of people that will be visiting will be much less than if you're having a
fast food chain.
So the actual footfall, I mean it's quite obvious that it's going to increase.
If you're going to a Prezzo you're going there for lunch, you'll spend a couple of hours.
If you're going to a McDonald's you pop in there for five minutes.
So the amounts of traffic and the amounts of consumers at a McDonald's house compared
to a Prezzo is a kind of night and day.
I don't have the stats but you could look at the North Finchley kind of branch and understand
the additional footfall, the feedback in the forms have just really focused on the drivers
and the additional drivers that will be picking up the food.
But the real concern is people who are just driving there and then just parking their
cars on the roads.
There is people that don't care about parking on the double yellows and they're going to
spill into all of the side roads which would include the school as well.
So your main objection is about people coming there for takeaways, delivery drivers, but
there are already parking restrictions I think along that area.
There are parking restrictions and you have to pay to park and therefore people will then
park in the roads behind because the roads behind are only blocks between 11 and 12.
So the road that I live in, anyone can park outside my house apart from 11 to 12.
If you look at the road where the school is, anyone can park there apart from 11 to 12
because we're quite near the station.
So you can't park on the main high street because you have to pay and therefore people
will start to park on all of the side roads which is where the school is as well.
So that's an argument for increasing the hours of controlled parking in the area.
That would be about some of your concerns.
Yes.
If the restaurant was just to eat in or just to pick up the food then the objections wouldn't
be there because the impact on the traffic wouldn't be as great.
So I understand that this is coming for a change of use because it's mostly a takeaway
and going to have a very small restaurant part of it.
So if there were far more sit-down tables and people going in there to eat, even though
people would also be taking away from there, it wouldn't have needed to come for a change
of use and you wouldn't have any objections to that.
Exactly.
So if you were to look at the McDonald's in North Finchley and understand the percentage
of people that are taking away, then you can understand the people that would then be parking
and then all of the additional kind of impact on the local community.
Okay.
Thank you.
Any further questions?
Thank you very much.
So I'll say again, there's nobody else here to speak so yes, in objection therefore we
have two councillors who wish to speak.
We have Councillor Simberg, I don't know which order you're going to speak in.
Councillor Dusinski first.
Right, you know the procedures Councillor Dusinski, you have three minutes to speak
if you're given a warning when you have one minute left.
Thank you Madam Chair.
I'd like to give some context if I may.
This is one of the largest – Could you speak right into the microphone.
Can I start again?
Thank you.
Thank you Madam Chair.
I'd like to give some context if I may.
This is one of the largest sites on Mill Hill Broadway.
Previously it was Pretzel, a pizza restaurant, but this is not a straightforward change from
a pizza restaurant to a burger restaurant.
The new restaurant area is designed to accommodate just 25 people, that's about six tables
of four and the local police have raised concerns that at a busy lunchtime or after school there
would be young people queuing up outside and crowding around eating and drinking because
there's no room inside.
And the reason behind this is because the largest part of the site will be occupied
by an industrial-sized kitchen with a separate street entrance to accommodate McDonald's
own estimates of 48 courier trips at peak hours, that's about one a minute.
It's important to understand some context.
There are two McDonald's sites in the area, one at Collin Deep Lane and one at Cannons
Corner in Edgware, which you may know.
Both of these are large off-street sites with restaurant capacity, seating, parking spaces
a drive-through, in other words much more appropriate conditions for delivery bikes
to operate in safely.
The reason this is important is that in a briefing meeting that I had with McDonald's,
I was told that both of these sites would be redirecting some of the delivery bikes
to instead come to Mill Hill Broadway, which has no designated parking and is a busy high
street setting.
When I asked the reason why they would be doing this, I was told that the Mill Hill
restaurant would not be viable without the delivery side of the business.
There are flats above these premises and the increased level of activity, noise and disturbance
at antisocial hours would risk causing harm to the residents' living conditions and
as far as traffic is concerned, there would be additional car and bike journeys requiring
safe places to park.
However, the site is adjacent to a pedestrian crossing and it's opposite the entrance
to Hartley Avenue, where the emergency fire and ambulance station requires permanent clear
access into the Broadway opposite.
The additional traffic is likely to cause obstructions and would have negative implications
for highway safety.
As a Mill Hill Councillor, I represent the concerns of many residents that this is an
inappropriate setting for this kind of delivery business in a very busy high street with its
main access for bikes via the equally busy Mill Hill Circus from the A41, so I would
therefore ask you, as my colleagues, to take these safety and other considerations very
seriously indeed.
Thank you.
Thank you. Any questions for Councillor Duschewski? Councillor Roberts?
Mill Hill Broadway is a very busy road. Do you know how many food outlets, fast food
or restaurant outlets, there are on Broadway?
It's in the papers. I think, I don't remember, maybe the officer can remind me. Four, five,
yeah. They're in very close proximity to this site as well. One on the other side
of it, a pizza place and a chicken place the other side, which both have bikes.
Fine, but presumably McDonald's are anticipating meeting demands for the products that they
serve.
I have more concerns about why they need to move some of the bike traffic from two very
large sites, which are much safer, and move them to a high street setting. That doesn't
make sense to me.
Presumably that's to do with the proximity of where the customers are.
I couldn't speak for McDonald's on that point, I just report what I heard in the
briefing meeting with them.
Okay, thank you.
No, thank you. So, Councillor Simberg, you have three minutes to give a warning when
you have one minute left.
Okay, we're not opposed to the restaurant. So if this was just a normal restaurant, that'd
be fine. However, we are opposed to a delivery hub. This is due to intensification, noise,
public safety, and this application is actually against the London Plan 2021.
So London Plan 2021 Policy E9. No hot food takeaway should be allowed if a school is
less than 400 metres away. That is the case. The officer has mentioned this in his opening
gambit. However, this was not put in the report. Sir Martin's school is 320 metres. Therefore,
this application should actually be thrown out. It doesn't comply.
Also, as Councillor Dischinski has said, we're concerned about highway safety. 48 courier
trips per hour. That's approximately one per minute. The noise implication to local
residents will be intolerable. If you go to one of the maps, you'll see there's a separate
entrance for courier access to the rear of the site. This is in the residential area.
One minute remaining. Okay. There will be massive disruption to residents.
There is no mention what is going to happen to the residents when they completely refurbish
from this site. The applicants also not made any application at this point for the use
of the cycles and parking. This, they have said, is going to be a separate application.
I question why is that a separate application? Why is it not part of this application? I
suggest the reason for that is they want to play down the fact that this is a delivery
hub. I take questions.
Any questions? Councillor Roberts? How do the school hours relate to the most
likely business hours of a fast food restaurant? How do the school hours that are coming and
going from school time relate to the hours that a fast food restaurant would operate
in? It's not a relevant question. It's proximity to the rest. In the London Plan, it says very
clearly no hot food outlet should be, or takeaway hot food outlet, should be within 400 metres
of the school. Therefore, this 320, it's too close. So it's no problem having a restaurant.
That's fine. But it's too close for this type of outlet. And as Councillor Duschinski
has actually said, there are two perfectly good sites, huge sites, that cover delivery.
So I know you mentioned about demand. Demand can be fulfilled from the two sites, one in
Edgware and in Conley Deep Lane. They're huge. We don't need, and they're safer. So, you
know, the school part is just proximity. And it's planning law. This is a planning committee.
This is planning law. Any further questions? No, thank you very much,
Councillor. The applicant or an agent for the applicant don't have listed. Is anybody
here to speak for the applicant? No? Any questions to the officers or comments?
Councillor Caddick. I've got sort of concerns about the delivery
of product to the store. Now, I'm a Collindale South Councillor, so the Collindale Deep Lane
outdoors is in my ward. They turn up with 40-foot trailers. Now, what accommodation
is there for the unloading, generally the unloading of the product in a site so close
to the roundabout? Sorry, just to clarify your question, are
you asking what safeguards there are to stop delivery to the school, which is close to
the school? No, no, no, no. I'm talking about delivery
of McDonald's raw materials to the store. They come in 40-foot-long trailers, and that
site is quite close to the roundabout. And at that time of night, or during the evenings,
a lot of residents park in that area. So I was wondering what arrangements they're making
to be able to deliver on that site in the evening, well, it's generally overnight or
early morning, what arrangements they're making so they're not going to block up the traffic?
Yes, so a couple of points I'd probably quite like to make on that. So as part of the conditions,
we're proposing to restrict the servicing of deliveries to the site from 7am until 8am
in the morning, and then from 7 o'clock in the evening until 9 o'clock in the evening,
to precisely take account of peak hours of travel, including not only people coming to
and from the school, as you've quite rightly raised, but also when the peak hours are for
commuting. So this condition wording in the addendum was specifically requested by our
highway officer and included by officers to avoid peak travel times.
And just on one other point, delivering to the rear of the site, which I think council
has raised a concern about, condition number 7 strictly prohibits deliveries from bikes
being done from the rear of the site, so they have to be done from the front, otherwise
they would be in breach of their permission. Just so I'm getting this clear, bikes can't
deliver from the back, that's only restricted for the staff members who come by cycling,
but when they're unloading the truck with the raw meat on, for example, and the other
products, do they go through the restaurant or do they go through the back?
Sorry, yes, I should have made that clearer. So currently the restaurant has permits to
use the commercial restricted bays, so this isn't anything which McDonald's would need
to apply for, but they currently have permits at certain times as part of the existing use
from Prezzo to use the bays at particular times. We would then want to put a condition
to restrict it so it's off peak hours, so that it doesn't conflict with any peak hours.
One thing to also mention, just to come back on and address the Councillor's concern and
why the application didn't include an application to convert some of the parking bays outside
the restaurant to be used for cycles and delivery drivers. That's because that would need to
come through a highway application, a section 278 application and the parking bays for outside
of the application site, so officers and the highways officer agreed that that would need
to be the route to go down to actually secure any parking, which they wanted exclusively
put for that restaurant. However, it doesn't restrict them from parking on the existing
bays as long as they comply with the terms of those parking bays.
They're talking about 48 peak times, the area you're talking about, can it accommodate that?
So the application was supported by a transport assessment and that was looked at by the council's
highway officer and he was supportive of the scheme, taking that point into account as well.
Councillor Giron.
Thank you, Chair. Officers have stated that there are only four McDonalds in the bar net,
but there are six. Why this was missed?
I take your point there. That was an oversight of myself when I was putting together the
report. Google Maps only showed four within the bar, but I fully take on board the council's
point there. What I would say though is obviously the application, even though McDonalds applied
for it, the application does run with the site, so it isn't specific and it isn't just
for McDonalds to occupy. This is a fast food outlet, so it should be taken on the consideration
of the merits of the use rather than the occupier and any other restaurants which they have.
But that was just to try and provide some context for yourselves, but it wasn't a real
material planning consideration, but just trying to provide some context there. But
I fully take on board the point of the six McDonalds there.
Councillor Barnes.
Sorry to keep on pressing you on similar points, but I'm having trouble getting my head round
this. I agree with the concerns about all the deliveries that will be happening and
the safety that goes on. Are we saying that that doesn't really constitute a material
planning reason for rejecting it? Or are we saying that highways have looked at it and
they're happy with it?
So highways have looked at it. Highway safety concerns is absolutely a material planning
consideration. You should definitely be taking that into account, but on balance there was
quite a rigorous transport assessment undertaken by the applicant. Our highway officer had
a look at it and recommended approval subject to conditions and a section 106 agreement
to do with the workplace travel plan to ensure that, and a monitoring agreement of that.
So, yes, it's absolutely a material planning consideration which you can take into account,
but one which the highway officer was supportive of. There are already, as I pointed out, there
are already takeaways there which do use Uber drivers. There's evidence of other cycles
being parked quite legally within that stretch of the Mill Hill Broadway, so this isn't
a completely new use. There are other hot food takeaways, including Domino's, which
obviously is quite a large outlet, Pizza Express, as well as a vast number of other restaurants
along there, just for context.
I just asked for clarification about the application for change of use. We may know that up until
now it has been a Class E restaurant. Presumably you may not answer applying for this change
of use to a mixed restaurant and hot food takeaway, but what would they need to do to
make it a restaurant, even though there would be a takeaway with the restaurant and therefore
not need a planning application, rather than this is just concentrating, as we've heard,
on takeaway which is causing the problem. So can you just give a little bit of explanation
about what the difference is and what they can and can't do from that point of view?
Certainly, yes. So, just to provide some context, I understand that initially McDonald's asked
whether there needed to be an application for a change of use because obviously during
Covid, restaurants throughout the country started providing a takeaway use even though
they had a restaurant and most don't have to apply for planning permission and to have
a small takeaway service within a large restaurant. And it's all factored, it's all degree and
there isn't really a fine cut-off, you know, X percent restaurant, X percent takeaway in
terms of where the cut-off line is. It's always for officers and the council to make a decision
as to whether there's material change of use in that scenario. So does that answer your
question or is it just partly? So there's no clear definition of the number of tables
they need to have or anything like that to make it into a restaurant. No. Purely, you've
advised them and they're applying for this. Correct, yes. But as it is a takeaway part
that is causing the objections and the traffic that's going to go from that, does make it
slightly difficult to decide on this one really, I think from my point of view. So, yep, we
are up for legal advice. Yeah, the other thing that has been brought up this evening is about
an additional school, about the closeness to a new school that wasn't considered. So
I don't know if we want to have any more information about that. So we may consider deferring this
to get more information from that and perhaps have somebody to speak on behalf of the applicants
as well to answer some of the questions that we have there. What do members think about
that? Would members like to consider deferring it? You propose deferral for more information
on the school and from the applicant? Well, it looks like this is against the London Plan
E9 because it says that there's no hot foot delivery, hot foot shouldn't be within the
four hundred metres where there's a school. So this is clearly less than four hundred
metres. This is three hundred twenty-one metres away from the school, St. Martin's. So this
is against the London Plan E9, isn't it? So I don't know why officers are recommending
to approve. Okay, so Councillor Carrillo would like to defer it for more information on that,
the seconder for that. Could I just ask, Chair, before we decide on deferral, can we hear
some more from the officer on, he said he would elucidate, sorry, he would comment further
on it at the end when questions were, could we hear what he was going to say? Yep, so
my understanding is that St. Martin's School is an independent school with seventy-six
pupils aged between three and eleven and fully appreciate that it's not in strict accordance
with the London Plan policy. Now, a policy is taken, you know, it's obviously a very
significant material planning consideration, but it isn't like a certificate of lawful
development where it's right or wrong, you know, where there's a strict black and white
that is taken in the round. And, you know, officers do consider that, you know, the part
of the reason for that application being, sorry, part of the reason for that policy
being there is to stop young children, particularly who aren't being taken to school by a parent
who might be walking there by themselves, to stop them just, you know, having easy access
to a hot food takeaway. Now, officers do, you know, acknowledge it's not in strict accordance
with the London Plan, but do take into account the age range being up to eleven, so really
primary age school being an independent school. So, you know, there's probably more likely
going to be parents taking their children to the school, so that there is a much lower
risk of the children going there after school than, for example, a high school, which you'd
obviously have, you know, people walking independently there, taking public transport, but officers,
you know, and there have been other instances in the borough where schools have been located
within that 400 metre radius, but on balance, because of the nature of the school, it has
been considered acceptable, but obviously this is something for councillors to take
into account when making their decisions.
Sorry, is it a rule or guidance, the 400 metres, is it a rule or just guidance?
So, it's part of a policy, so the advice would you say is 400, so it does say...
It's basically a planning policy within the London Plan and Barnett's emerging plan, but
obviously there are a number of policies to take into account, along with all the other
material considerations, so just because it doesn't meet one part of one policy, obviously
you're looking at the various, giving weight to various different elements of the application,
so it doesn't mean you need to refuse it because it happens to not comply with one part of
one policy when there's a whole set of other considerations.
Obviously, members can do that, but it's not the fact that because it doesn't comply with
that one part, you have to refuse planning permission, it's a consideration.
And one other thing, just to point out, because it is within a town centre location, the highway
officer was particularly supportive of the location in principle, because it's a sustainable
location, there's likely to be more people travelling by public transport or walking
there compared to a much larger site where you might have to drive, which is obviously
something to take into account, not something which will tip it one way or the other, but
it's just something else to take into account.
I just wanted to clarify, it does not make it illegal, this is against plan and policy
and therefore can be questioned, take right to appeal, whatever, but it is not illegal
in any way.
No, absolutely not.
Thank you.
Councillor Gordon, do you still wish to pass it to Feral?
Sorry, Chair.
Well, I have two questions, sir.
I want to ask with the applicant, but the applicant is not here today, so I will be
voting against the officer's recommendation.
Okay, so there's no further discussion, we will go to a vote on this, the officers are
recommending approval, all those in favour of approval, that's two, those against, one,
two not voting.
So that application is approved and we now move on to the next item, which is 11 Hill
Crescent N20.
Yeah, sorry, I'd still be going on to the next one, if you can start now.
Thank you, Chair.
The next item relates to number 11 Hill Crescent N20.
Sorry, could we, could the members of the public and councillors please take their discussions
out of the room so that we can carry on with the agenda?
11 Hill Crescent N20, the application is for extensions to a dwelling house, part single
part two-storey side and rear extensions following demolition of the garage, a roof extension
including a rear dormer and front roof lights.
So that's the property, on the northern side of the street here, so this is the semi-detached
pair here, the area in black is the area of the proposed extensions, a different area
of view, you can see various examples of other single-storey and two-storey side extensions
in the street, there's one here and one here and one here, and a couple of the houses have
first-floor side extensions set further back on the site and that includes the adjoining
number 13, some site photographs that show the front on the left and then the rear of
the property, so this is an existing two-storey outrigger, it's common to the properties,
the immediately adjoining properties, an existing conservatory which will be replaced as part
of the proposal.
Some more site photographs showing other two-storey extensions and this is the side elevation
of number 13 which faces the side extension of the proposed site, so that's the existing
and proposed floor plan, so that's the existing ground floor with the garage, so this is the
side extension here set a metre away from the boundary and extending out to the rear
by a maximum of two metres beyond that outrigger and this extension here, flat roofed extension
replaces the existing conservatory, this is the existing first floor so you can see the
extension here down to the side and extending 0.6 metres rear of the existing outrigger
set back one metre from the front elevation a metre away from the boundary, that's the
roof and loft plan, the existing elevations and the proposed elevations, so again this
element here is set back a metre from the front elevation, set down 0.5 of a metre,
set in a metre from the boundary, so in that respect it complies with the design guidance.
This is the rear view, so that's the existing outrigger which will be raised in height and
extended sideways, the additional ground floor and that's the replacement for the conservatory
and then there's a relatively small dormer window in the existing roof slope there and
these are the two side elevations, this is the side elevations showing the first floor
extension here facing number 13. So the key considerations for this one are that it complies
with the design guidance, on its design guidance, number of properties in this surrounding area
have been extended with similar two storey side and rear extensions so officers consider
the proposal as not out of character, four objection comments have been received, key
concerns being loss of light and privacy, the extensions being out of character, loss
of outlook and that's been addressed in the report, there's a distance of a metre maintained
to the boundary and officers view it would not appear overbearing to neighbouring occupiers
and the property at number 13 has obscure glazed first floor side windows and again
officers do not consider there's significant loss of outlook or loss of light and therefore
the application is recommended for approval subject to conditions. Thank you.
Thank you. We have one speaker on this, Mark Wilson. Mr Wilson is here and then the Councillor
wishes to speak. Is Mark Wilson here? Sorry, we usually have the objective first and then
the Councillor, if that's okay. So, Mr Wilson. Sorry, you are?
Sorry, only speaking on behalf of Mark Wilson. Okay, okay, that's fine.
Right okay, thank you. So, again if you can turn the microphone on, there's a button on
the microphone, just to switch with the face on it. If you can compress the picture with
the face at the bottom, just about where your finger is. That's it.
Sorry about that. That's fine, I'm sorry. So yes, I'll ask you
to introduce yourself and then you'll have three minutes to speak and you'll be given
a warning when you have one minute left. Right, okay.
I just want to hand out some documents to the... Not photographs, photographs.
So, if you're careful walking because of the wires and everything here, I don't want you
to fall over. All right, thank you, Mrs Wilson.
Sorry, your microphone's gone off again. Okay. We have lived at the 13 Hill Crescent
for 32 years. For clarity, we do not object to a ground floor extension at number 11.
Our objection is for a first floor continuous side extension. The previous extensions referred
to in the recommendation document are all very different. Hill Crescent has an eclectic
mix of house styles, so what's acceptable for one doesn't necessarily apply to others.
The previous owner of our house had an identical plan rejected. The compromise was a smaller
extension at the rear and side only. Number 17 had an identical application rejected.
The compromise was the first floor extended only at the front above the garage, not the
full side of the house, thus improving the joint visual and aesthetic balance. Number
21's extension has not encroached on number 19. 19 has a very spacious garage and it is
a wide plot, therefore not radically changing the street scene. Number 9's extension is
also limited to the front above the garage on the first floor. The first application
for a rear extension at number 11 was rejected. The council's report stated it would be overbearing
and visually intrusive, resulting in loss of outlook, unacceptable sense of enclosure,
detrimental to the residential amenities and contrary to five London and Barnet guidelines.
Our planning consultant concluded that the same regulations apply to the proposed side
extension and would have an amplified impact on our property. The ward council is supported
by two other called in for this application. These council has found the overly protruding
bulky extension out of proportion with the surrounding buildings, affecting the outlook
and contrary to all the policies and guidelines that apply to the rejected rear extension.
To pass this application would contradict Barnet council's first ruling. Number 11
is on our west side, uphill and higher than our house. This aspect would further amplify
a sense of enclosure, bulk overshadowing and be overbearing and dominant. It would replace
our current outlook with a monolithic wall, which at the rear would be just on the two
metre minimum guideline in the Barnet design guidance document paragraph 14.17, also contrary
to amenity paragraph 14.7 by requiring more artificial light. We have five windows upstairs,
one to our master bedroom. They enhance our outlook and brightness, which will be subsequently
reduced facing an overbearing wall, creating overshadowing and sense of penning in. It
would have a harmful impact on our quality of life. Downstairs we have a dark, very narrow
exterior side passageway. This would create further enclosure and obscure the glazed kitchen
dial-a-door. We ask the committee to reject this proposal, to ensure Barnet council's
own rules are consistently applied and ask the new owners, not yet residents, to consider
a revised plan. Thank you for letting us have a voice.
Thank you. I don't think we can ask questions. Any questions? I don't think we have any questions
for you. Thank you very much. Then Councillor Stock, would you like to speak?
Thank you. I think you know the procedure. You have three minutes to speak. You may give
them a minute's warning. Thank you very much indeed. I think it's
important, and I think several of you know the actual street, but the northern side is
actually quite different to the opposite side of the road. It's quite important to understand
the layout of the actual different houses, which I'll come to in a second. But I'm just
going to read you, which I think you have in your report. It said there has been an
application for another part of an extension that was refused, and it was refused. It said
the proposed single-storey extension by reason of its side-sighting and excessive rearward
projection would have an unacceptable adverse impact on the visual and residential amenities
of the neighbouring occupiers at No. 9 Hill Crescent, appearing obtrusive, overbearing
and resulting in an undue loss of outlook and increased sense of enclosure, and gives
many different reasons why it's crunched the plan, which is why I really don't understand
why this has now been said that it's okay. The current application has an effect on No.
13, as hopefully you can see from the actual view. Hill Crescent is on a hill, and it is
very steep. The house that we're talking about, No. 11, is above No. 13, so therefore it does
have an actual effect on their garden, light and the rest of their amenities and enclosure.
And the reason why I think it should be rejected is the sheer mass and size. In my opinion,
which is actually unacceptable, the other houses that have been given a saying that
the extensions have been the same are all step back. I think you've seen from the pictures
you have, each one of them, so the house No. 9, having walked up and down the road, actually
again is only at the front and the back it's not, it's step back, and all the way down
the road it's exactly the same, and the actual spacing of the houses, because it's a very
different type of road, is actually quite different. So it does allow, if it is a more
solid extension, there's a wider gap. So in my opinion, because of the actual overbearing
appearance for the house No. 13, I think it should be rejected. Thank you very much indeed.
Thank you. Any questions? I would just say the picture there of No. 7, between No. 7
and No. 9, that looks very close together and similar to what's proposed. I think that's
slightly different. I think the two houses, I know exactly which ones you're talking about,
but No. 9 is actually, it's actually step back, so it isn't completely, the actual house
of No. 9 is only at the front, the back is completely empty. Thank you, Councillor Roberts.
Thank you. Just want to establish, on the site visit we had the other day, it would
appear from looking up and down the road that very few, if not none of the houses had not
been amended in some way. Yes, absolutely. They've all taken alterations at some time
in their history. That's the case? That's correct and my understanding is the occupants
of No. 13 absolutely do not object to any extension. It's the sheer mass of it. It's
going to be a completely solid wall on that side and I think that's the problem. It is
the fact that if you look at all the others, there usually are spacing or there's a bit
of a spacing between the houses, but they completely agree that there should be. It's
the fact that somehow it should be actually spaced further, you know, stepped like the
other, like other houses. So if you go up and down the road, you'll see, I mean, No.
9 for example, it is only half the house. It doesn't go all the way back and if you
walk down the road, which I did yesterday, each one of them, either there is a bigger
space or it is step back or just part of it. It's not this huge mass of a wall, which will
give a real sense of enclosure for them in the garden. It's the mass and the size that
I feel very strongly is incorrect. So I'll ask officers to confirm about whether what's
proposed does meet with our policies on extending rear and I can see from the previous application
that was refused, it was a much larger six meter extension at the back, so it's going
much further back. So I'll ask them to confirm exactly what the situation is with this. I
mean, the other thing is if you actually look at the building line, it is actually coming
quite, it is coming ahead of that from having looked at the back.
Questions? No, thank you very much. And we have the agent for the applicant, Mr. Henry,
Joe Henry. Again, if you can put the microphone on. I don't think I need to explain the procedure
to you. You have three minutes to speak. You're given a warning when you have a minute left.
Yes, thank you, Chair and members. My name is Joe Henry and I'm the agent acting for
the application. The committee papers confirm the application has been called into committee
by Councillor Caroline Stark, as you are aware. A summary of the objection is that the proposal
size would have a dominant impact on the garden and house of number 13 Hill Crescent, resulting
in an increased sense of enclosure, loss of light and loss of outlook. The Councillor's
objection does not state which part of the proposed development is objectionable. It
is comforting, though, that the Councillor's objection, as stated in the committee report,
does not relate to the impact the proposal has on the character and appearance of the
property and locality. Therefore, I will concentrate my points on the impact the proposal has on
the neighbouring amenity of number 13 Hill Crescent.
Number 13 Hill Crescent benefits from four side windows facing the application building.
However, your officer's report confirms three of these are obscure-glazed and none serve
house rooms. Therefore, there could be no sustainable planning objection to the impact
the proposal has on those windows. The application site is set at a slightly higher ground level
in comparison to number 13. However, the two-storey part of the proposal is set back from the
rear, set back of the rear elevation of the existing two-storey addition of number 13,
not beyond. An proposal is set in one metre from the shared boundary. This means it is
not possible for the two-storey part of the proposal to have any meaningful impact whatsoever
on the rear windows or rear garden or any patio area of number 13. An additional benefit
is the roof form of the proposal pitches in a way from number 13.
The proposed single-storey part of the proposal does project past the rear building line of
number 13. However, it only projects two metres past and is set in one metre off the neighbouring
boundary. The Council's adopted residential design guidance allows single-storey rear
extensions to semi-attached houses to be located on neighbouring boundaries and have a depth
of up to 3.5 metres. Therefore, this part of the proposal would have a significantly
lesser impact than that which is allowed by the Council's adopted residential design
guidance. Overall, I firmly believe the proposed extensions meet all the criteria set out,
all of it, in the Council's planning policies and, more importantly, meet every requirement
set out under Council's adopted residential design guidance. Thank you for listening and
I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have.
Thank you. Any questions? Councillor Roberts?
Do you think that the proposed extensions are in keeping with other extensions in Hill
Crescent?
I didn't actually concentrate on that part of my speech, as you note, because I didn't
think there was many objections to that, because it complies with all the design guidance.
As you pointed out, Councillor, the character of the area is mixed in terms of loads of
extensions to other houses and everything that they have done, in a sense, is following
what the Council does allow under design guidance. It's an alternate extension, the main house
will still look like the main house, the extension is set back at a first floor level from the
street, so it ticks all the boxes that are required to provide a subordinate addition,
which doesn't overwhelm the character and appearance of the area.
Any more questions? No, thank you very much. Now we've got any questions for the officers.
If we can just have some confirmation, we've had a difference of opinion there between
the objectors and Councillor Stock, saying that this is too close, extends too far to
the back, is too close to the neighbouring property, therefore doesn't meet with our
policies and the agents saying that it does, so I wonder if we could have your professional
opinion on this difference, please.
Thank you. As I said in my presentation, as set out in the report, in terms of the Council's
guidance on two-storey side extensions, they are required to be set back a metre from the
front elevation, which it is, a metre off the side boundary, which it is, and to be
at least 0.5 metres set down from the ridge, which it is. The other criteria are that it
should not exceed more than half the width of the original house, which I think you can
see clearly it doesn't, and if we go back to the plan, so that's the width of the
house, so that would be half the width of the house, so clearly this extension is less
than half the width. The other issue raised is in relation to next door's first floor,
which as you can see is further back, so the extension to the first floor outrigger at
the back doesn't come as far back as the first floor of number 13. We can see that
on this photograph here, so this is number 13's outrigger, so this is the existing
ground floor at the application site, that's the existing outrigger, so that's coming
back 0.6 metres and it won't be coming as far back as this one, and there is a gap of
2 metres maintained between first floors which again does comply with policy. If I can just
refer also to the previous application in the report, which was a prior approval notification
for a 6 metre deep rear extension, which as you can see was refused, however that's
a very different beast altogether because it would have been 6 metres along this boundary
here. Let me just go back to the plan again, so that's going to be a 6 metre extension
here, so clearly that has a very greater impact on number 9 than a small extension of 2 metres
on this original part of the house, so that was the reason why that was refused, it was
a different amenity impact than we are considering in this application. One further issue is,
just if I can clarify about the windows which we saw on site, yes when we went on site,
it was pointed out to us that there is a utility room window at ground floor level, and there's
the kitchen door in the side elevation which serves a large kitchen/diner which is also
served by large windows and doors on the rear elevation, so we would consider that to be
secondary light to that room. In relation to the first floor, we've got these windows
here which are landing bathroom/toilet I believe, obscure glazed windows, they're not habitable
from windows, so they don't benefit from the same rights to light as other windows
may do. The other window in the side is this one here, which is in the extension to number
13, and again there's a small window in the front of that elevation, there's a small
window here, and there's a larger window at the rear, so again that room benefits from
a number of windows, so the side facing window is secondary, and again we don't consider
that that is sufficient, or any loss of light to that window or loss of outlook is sufficient
to justify refusal when there are other windows lighting that habitable space. Thank you.
Thank you. Any further questions or comments? Councillor Cannock?
It was mentioned that they would have an impact on their garden. What do you consider the
impact to be?
I'm not really sure how it would have an impact when the extension isn't coming as far back
as the one at number 13. I mean clearly that extension would theoretically have a bit of
impact on light to their north facing garden because it's situated west of their own house,
so if the next door neighbour does the same thing, that's not coming back any further,
so I don't really see how that could have materially affected light in the garden area.
Right there's no further comments or questions, and we'll go to the vote. The officer's recommendation
is for approval. All those in favour of approval? That's four. Against? Approval? One. So that
application is approved.
Thank you very much, and we'll move on to the last item on the agenda, 112D Park Road,
Barnet.
the other site was at yesterday. There's also an addendum being circulated which ties
up one little bit about clarifying that highway colleagues have no objections to the proposal.
Just run through a size quickly if I may. So we have a large corner site on the west
side of Park Road, corner of Mount Road, detached bungalow. I think it's fair to say, to see
from the next photos, it's fairly unique in that all the back garden is pretty well paved
over, and as we saw from the front, we can see from that particular picture there, it's
got this large cupboard area which is just about two metres high going across the whole
of the front of it. Stops there, and then we can see relationship naming properties.
So we've got bungalows there, quite a large one, and then we've got more traditional two-storey
housing down there. A couple of views there, I think it's important to note that certainly
in the context of this particular application that the neighbouring plot sizes are fairly
big. The character is large and has some fairly comfortable plots, and that's the main issue
as members will read from the report and as we'll get to in a minute. So we've got floor
plans, ground floor of the pair, so it's a pair of two detached properties, two storey
properties. On the left, that's the first floor of that property, not quite as deep
on the corner, so that proposed deep dwelling would have three beds, and its neighbouring
property there would have four. And then we've got, not plans, elevations. So then we can
see that's the existing property next door, and these proposals take their design and
appearance really from that, but it's, as we can see, they are much smaller, and that's
a problem as far as we're concerned. There's no issue with regards to the principle of
residential redevelopment on the site. It's simply that the proposed units are too small,
they're not cramped on the site, they're out of scale, out of keep and out of character
with the surrounding area. And as we say in the report, whilst everything else about the
proposed dwelling isn't okay, many spaces okay, no issue with regards to parking, etcetera,
it's just considered that they're too cramped and out of character, and unfortunately the
additional unit on there does not in our opinion outweigh that very real problem and concern.
There we can see the block plan, again it shows it in more detail, there we've got the
side next door, and we can see that these really are quite long and narrow. Plenty of
space around them, there we can see the utilisation access there to get a couple of parking spaces
for the end unit, a couple of parking spaces off the front there, the rest of it is to
landscaping and we can see how it lines up, sorry how they would line up with the rear
wall of the neighbouring property, no further back, no further forward, and line up with
the front building line of the neighbouring property in Mount Road. And that's really
the constraint because that's really your building area. The previous approval on the
site was in fact for a single dwelling on there, occupying that footprint, and in order
to get two units on there, it's relatively simple, we'll chop it down the middle and
get two units on there, but in doing so you get two units but the former development in
our opinion is unacceptable. So just a key constraint, the character impact is unacceptable
due to the narrow nature of the properties, which is to say is uncharacteristic within
the streets in a wider area. Benefit of the additional dwelling not viewed to offset the
identified harm, and it's unacceptable in all respects but unfortunately unacceptable
on grounds of character and refuses recommended. Thank you.
Thank you. We have one object who wishes to speak, Elias Niocleous. Is that an oleocleous
no? Doesn't seem to be here, and we have this item was called in by Councillor Simon
Radford, who is not here but I believe he's given a statement to be read out.
Okay, this is a statement written by Councillor Simon Radford and it reads, I don't think
sticking with the idea of consistent plots should outweigh the benefits of extra housing,
especially as the narrowness of the plots hardly seems extreme. We need more family
homes in Barnet, there are also many studios and one bedroom units, and we should not take
lightly turning down very reasonable designs which can increase their number. I urge the
committee to look closely at the proposal, see if we can make it work, and do our best
to see if we can increase the number of family homes. That concludes.
Thank you, and then we have the applicant, Mr Agarwal. Yes? That's fine, we'll be friendly
with you, there's nobody here to overhear you. So yes, if you can turn the microphone
on, picture with face, smiley button, yes, that's it. Introduce yourself, you have three
minutes to speak and you'll be given a warning when you have one minute left.
Okay. Ooh, God, okay, this echoes, apologies. Councillors, officers, thank you for giving
me your time and considering this application. As Councillor Radford alluded to, Barnet is
facing a desperate shortage of family homes. This impacts the whole community with families
essentially unable to afford decent sized housing, either to rent or to buy. The bar
is significantly short, even in terms of its current reduced housing targets, which I'm
sure your planning officers will confirm. The application I've made does provide two
compliant, decent family homes, and the existing house and the surrounding structures that
exist, the current lawful position, are simply an eyesore, and we should look at this as
an opportunity to develop from that. The existing plots were shown, I think, in the westward
drawing, that's perfect. The immediate neighbours' plots are 10.5 metres wide each. We have one
of 13.5 metres and one of 8.5 metres. So in terms of the sizing and the crampedness, I
openly accept, thanks to a very good presentation, that one of the plots is a little bit narrower
than its neighbours, but it's not something completely out of the ordinary, it's not
a completely different scale. We've got one house which is a bit smaller on the first
floor because of Mount Road, it's a different aspect, so it's been done to kind of align
with that. And in terms of the access to the plots, we're not changing anything on the
street scene, so we're using the existing crossovers that exist, the one on Park Road
that's already there, the one on Mount Road that's already there, and we've actually
reduced the massing to reduce any kind of visual impact compared to the single large,
I can't remember, 3,000 odd square foot house that's there for approval, which is quite
frankly not really what the area or the borough needs. I've completely gone off-piste, I
hope and trust that you will see that the additional family house is a genuine, real
and significant benefit of the scheme, and essentially redevelopment of the existing
lawful position of the house and the kind of surrounding structures is again of considerable
merit. I have confidence that you will consider it carefully, I thank you again for coming
and making the site visit, those of you who did, thank you very much, and I hope on balance
you will agree that the actual real benefits of this in the context that's been presented
do outweigh the perceived harms. Thank you for your time, and if I can answer any questions
I'd love to do that. Thank you, and I'll see if they've got any questions for you.
Why did you not consider using the same footprint for making the two semi-detached houses which
would have given greater space and looked less incongruous?
So thank you for the question, and it's a very logical question. So when I spoke to
the architect and I also had to go to a planning consultant and I asked him this question as
to what would be the issue with just having the existing shape but with semi-detached,
I was told that that would be more likely to be refused by the planning team on the
basis of character because the houses are all detached, and to introduce a semi-detached
would be more problematic than this approach. So the example I was given to make me understand
it better was if someone wants to make an HMO, even though there's no external appearance
there's a change in the character to the area, so apparently, and again I'm not a planning
expert, I should have got one, but the semi-detached option would have been apparently worse than
this option, and so that's why I mean what you've said is completely logical, it would
be the best thing to do, but I was told it was worse.
Councillor Roberts. Are you aware of any other properties in Park
Road and Merritt Road of a similar nature of this, the narrowness of this proposal?
So in terms of the, on Long Park Road, the only houses, Park Road's a very long road,
so in the reasonable vicinity, the only houses which have similar widths are the immediate
neighbours as you can see on the westward view, they're 10.5 metres wide each, ours
is 8.5 and 13.5, so as I said it's not perfect, but in terms of if you raise the 8.5 to 10.5,
to match 1, you lose the second home, so you're essentially offsetting the benefit of an additional
home against a 2 beta plot width, which I mean obviously I'm the applicant, I'll
say I think that's, you know, it's crazy, but you know you've got planning policy
and various rules to consider.
Questions? Thank you very much. Now questions for the officers or comments? I'd just like
to ask about the height of these, you commented that one of the concerns about it being out
of character is that the height is less than the neighbouring properties, so the one property
for which there is planning permission, what was the height of the property for which there
is planning permission?
I haven't got the information in front of me I'm afraid, but I would think it would
have been taller than those, I could be wrong, but I mean looking at this on its own merits,
not only of a narrower bit, quite a lot smaller thing compared to the neighbouring property
there, so again that further upsets the balance in the street scene, but I'm afraid I can't
answer the question in respect of the height of the previous application I'm afraid.
Yeah I think it was two storey with rooms in the roof space, so presumably this is...
If it was two stores and rooms in the roof space it would have been bigger definitely.
So it's like an extra storey on the top of these. So if these had come in slightly bigger
with another storey perhaps the recommendation may be different, I don't know.
Any further comments or questions? No then we'll go to the vote. The office's recommendation
on this is for refusal. Those who vote for the office's recommendation are for refusal.
So this is vote for refusal, that's one. So I think it looks as though we may be minded
to agree this, so does that mean that we need to defer this to the next meeting?
If I can just give you some... Well we can't vote for it.
We need to vote against it. Oh yes, sorry we need to do that. Those against
the office's recommendation for refusal. That's three and one not voting.
So, as we are minded to accept this application, this will be deferred to the next meeting.
Chair, sorry, can I just give some procedure advice? So you'll need someone to actually
propose a motion to be contrary to the office's recommendation and that to be seconded and
then we'll have another vote again. I'm happy to propose that we, whatever it
is, what exactly the wording was. We propose to be contrary to the office's recommendation.
Okay so can we vote to defer this? That's three in favour of deferral to the
next meeting. So because the committee is minded, we have
not made a decision but the committee is minded to approve that application, this will come
to the next committee meeting to allow for any objections and to bring any conditions
on to the application. So we need to give reasons why we were actually
deferring as well. I think it's because this would not cause
harm to the surrounding area. So this will be just adding to the variation.
So, yes, if you would not detract from the character of the area, something along those
lines. Would it help if I just recap what I think
is being said? So it wouldn't be materially different in
size compared to other properties in the area, other developments in the area, nor do members
consider that it would detract from the character or appearance of the area.
Is that a fair summary? Okay, thank you.
Okay, so that's the end of tonight's meeting. Thank you all very much.
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