Transcript

Isensing Subcommittee. As I mentioned earlier, my name's Councillor David Robson. Before we start the official business of the meeting, I just have a couple of announcements to make about the meeting rules. The meeting is hosted by Lambeth and has been broadcast live via audio minutes and recordings may be used for quality and training purposes. In the event that technical issues require the meeting to be adjourned and it cannot be restarted within a few minutes, further updates will be posted on the Council's Democracy Twitter account, or should that be X now, apologies, which is @LBLDemocracy. Ensure that this meeting runs smoothly. Only one individual will be allowed to speak at any time. And as we're on the meeting via Teams, as I've said earlier, please ensure that your microphone is muted and that your names and any organisations that you're representing are clearly marked. If I request that an individual stop speaking, they should do so immediately. Interruptions may result in you being disconnected from this meeting. Members of the public are welcome to record or tweet the public proceedings of the meeting. Please note that the subcommittee will notify interest parties of its decisions on each application within five working days. That comes out to one of the agenda and apologies. I'm gonna come to the officers present now, just to quickly introduce themselves. And Jacqueline, I'm gonna come to you first because apologies, should I have said at the top that we were recorded from the start?

• Hello, everyone, I'm Jacqueline Pinnacle, Democratic Services.
• And are we now recording the meeting, Jacqueline?
• It is now recording, yeah.
• Thank you very much. I'll come over to Selina next.
• Hi, everyone, I'm Selina Wiafi and I'm the legal advisor to the committee this evening.
• Okay, Ola.
• Good evening, I'm Ola Wijori, a licensing officer.
• And last but not least, Nicole.
• Good evening, everyone, I'm Nicole Terrier. I'm regulatory services manager, and I'm here on behalf of the case officer for the first case tonight, Marcia Green, who's been taken ill.
• Thanks, Nicole. Okay, so that are the committee and that is the team of officers was part of the licensing subcommittee. Moving on to item number two, declarations of interest. Councillors, are there any declarations of interest on either item this evening? I have none. That's none. The minutes of the previous meeting as per the agenda pack that was sent out, I will take those as confirmed. I don't have any of the corrections other than on page one. Under substitute members, we removed Councillor Marianna Masters, who's no longer on the licensing subcommittee. So she should be removed from future listings if that's okay, Jacqueline.
• Okay, Chair.
• Thank you. Was there any other corrections or anything for the minutes? Wonderful. And now we move on to the main item of business for the evening, which is the licensing applications. And we're going to do them in the order as it's gone out in the agenda. So we're going to hear from Palm Lounge first, and then we're going to hear from Reels Casino. So if you are here for the second part of the agenda, we won't be offended if you pop your cameras off while you go and cook or do whatever else, but you're of course more than welcome to stay for the duration and hear all the business of the meeting. But just to say that the first of the agenda will be about Palm Lounge, which is at 60 Brixton Road, London, SW9 6BS. And I'm going to come over to Nicole first to introduce this item.
• Good evening, everyone. This is an application reference 24-00197 PRM VAR. It's an application for a variation to an existing license. The applicant's name is Mr. Shiraz Kamawal. Chair has just confirmed the address, which is 60 Brixton Road. The application is seeking to extend the operational hours on a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday to add the license of an activity of regulated entertainment and to increase the floor plan to include the basement area. The current premises license permits a late night refreshment and sale by retail of alcohol from Monday to Sunday, 11 PM to midnight. And the application is seeking hours of Friday to Sunday, 11 PM to 2.30 AM for late night refreshment, sale by retail of alcohol and recorded music with no change to the current hours from Monday to Thursday. The current opening hours for the premises are Monday to Sunday, 11 AM to midnight. And the requested opening hours for the premises are Friday to Sunday, 11 AM to 3 AM. In attendance for the application are Mr. Olugbemaiga Olusola, who is the agent, and the applicant, Mr. Shiraz Kamawal, who is the licensee. The application form and plan are at pages 37 to 45 of the pack. Applicant submitted conditions are at pages 47 to 49. The dispersal policy is at pages 51 to 56. A copy of the current premises license is at pages 59 to 68 of the pack. One representation was received against the application submitted by the licensing authority who are in attendance and Ola Olwajori is representing the licensing authority for this case. And that representation can be found on pages 57 to 58. That concludes the introduction. And are there any questions?
• Come on from me at this stage. Thanks, Nicole. Councillors, anything from either of you? Scarlett. Sorry, it's on mute.
• Sorry, yep.
• It's okay, Councillor Horan.
• Yep, beg your pardon. Yeah, just to clarify about the planning situation. Is this, where is this in the planning process? Or is there a planning process in concerned with this application?
• So according to the report, there was no response from planning. However, a planning application submitted in 2013 for use for, sorry, alterations to the basement floor were granted to accommodate seating.
• Thank you. On that note, I'm going to ask to, if we can hear from the applicant. Now, I know you said that we have both the licence holder, which is, was it Mr. Camwell? Are you there? Are you here? And the representative, which is Mr. Olusola.
• Yes, I'm here.
• Ah, yes, hello. Hello, sir, good evening. And so is it Mr. Olusola? I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly. Mr. Olusola, are you the, who was introduced in the application? Is that correct? Or are you speaking on behalf of Mr. Camwell?
• Yeah, my licensing consultant, yeah, he will.
• Oh, is he? Is he there?
• Oh, yeah.
• Oh, well, Mr. Olusola, if you can hear me, it would be great if you could pop your camera on then, please, because you have about five minutes now to come in and introduce yourself and address the subcommittee in line with the application. So we can't hear you, sir, you're on mute. So Mr. Olusola, you're on mute. You have a few tech issues, sorry about that. Take your time and get it sorted, don't worry. We could see you, but then, yeah, we weren't being able to hear you.
• Yeah.
• Mr. Camwell, I don't know if you could, can you give him a quick call, just to see what's happening, just to see if there's anything going on with this. It might be his computer. I know sometimes computer society will do updates at the most inconvenient time.
• Sure, I'm gonna call him, yeah.
• Thank you, I'll just pop you on mute while you kind of, sorry for the hold up, everybody, but hopefully they'll get sorted in a moment.
• Yeah, they gave you an option.
• Oh, there we go, we can hear you now.
• Okay, can you hear me now, please?
• We can hear you now, sir, yes, brilliant, excellent.
• Thank you, Mr. Odusola, is that correct?
• Yes, Odusola is my name. I'm really sorry about that. It's one of those things, technical issues happening with my laptop.
• Does your camera able to switch on or?
• Yes, let me see my camera.
• Brilliant, there we go, brilliant.
• Okay, you can see my camera now.
• We can see and hear you perfectly now, brilliant. Sorry about that.
• Okay, okay.
• All right, you have up to five minutes starting from now then, please, sir.
• All right, thank you very much, yeah. My name is Oluolusola, I'm the agent representing Mr. Kamawile, who is the applicant for the application. Now, the application was submitted on the 30th of August, 2024, and all the statutory pathway was duly followed. That is the application was duly advertised on the premises with the Blue Notice and in the South London newspaper. And the end of consultation was on the 27th of September, 2024. The application seeks the following variation to the licensing activities. One is the opening times, Friday to Sunday, from 11 o'clock in the morning to 3 a.m. Number two is the supply of alcohol from Friday to Sunday, 11 o'clock in the morning to 2.30 a.m. hours. And then number three, recorded music from Friday to Sunday, from 11 p.m. to 2.30 a.m. And then finally, we have the late night refreshment from Friday to Sunday, 11 p.m. to 2.30 a.m. We also requested for a change in the floor plan, which incorporated the basement, as was mentioned by one of the officers who just made the presentation by Nicole. Now, the licensing authorities representation dated on the 25th of September was received on the 14th of October and a response to the representation dated 16th of October was actually sent. And this response highlighted all the aspects of the proposed conditions, which is meant to promote the licensing objectives of, number one, prevention of public nuisance, and then number two, prevention of crime and disorder, which was the main concern of the licensing authorities. Now, that response to that licensing authorities representation also proposed three additional conditions. And those conditions are also meant to promote the licensing objectives of prevention of crime and disorder and prevention of public nuisance. It is also worthy of note that there were no representation received from any other responsible authorities and also including the residents. Thank you, chair.
• Thank you, Mr. Olusola. I don't know if the applicant as well, do you want to, I mean, there's a couple of minutes, if you wanted to jump in, Mr. Kamwol, or if you like, we can go to the committee for questions.
• Thank you for giving me opportunity to speak. We've been in the business of 60 bricks and ropes since 2018. Well, we never had any issue with the residents or with any authority, local authority. So, and we always try to maintain our business very well. So we never had any issue, so that's all I can add here.
• Thank you both. Okay, so now I will throw it over to committee members to ask the questions of the applicants. So I just wondered Councillors O'Hara, Rathmell, do you want to kick off or should I do the honors? Sorry, I'm having a bit of interference there. Yeah, Councillor O'Hara, if you want to go first.
• Thank you, chair. I have a question about the capacity, the proposed capacity of the venue. The seated capacity and also the standing capacity and exactly how you're proposing to manage that.
• Yep, okay, are you happy to take that Mr. Olusola? Sorry, keep an eye on the mute button there because we tend to, if you're not speaking, so there we go, brilliant.
• Thank you very much, chair. The capacity of the premises is quite small. The upper part, that is the ground floor area will contain about let's say 30 people. And then the basement will also contain at maximum capacity about 40, 40 people at the basement. So in total, we are talking about 70. So it's not really a big premises. That is at full-time capacity and dispersal policy would take care of these aspects of the maximum capacity of the patrons. Thank you, chair.
• Councillor Rathmell.
• I wasn't clear, is there a designated smoking area?
• There's a smoking area outside the premises where we've included in the dispersal policy. There shouldn't be more than five people outside at any point in time, which will be managed by the door supervisors.
• Okay, so I can't see that in the dispersal policy.
• Oh, sorry, it was added onto the conditions I submitted on the 16th of October, 2024. If you look at that additional condition, number one is not more than five people at any time to be allowed in the outside smoking area to be supervised by SIE door provider.
• I'm trying to work out what number in the council pack that will be in our papers. So I think it's under Annex B, farm lounge event, crowd management and dispersal policy. Is that right?
• Yes, and in addition to that is in the letter to the response to the licensing authority's representation on the 16th of October, 2024.
• I'm just, why are we trying?
• Oh, sorry, do you know where it will be in the papers, please?
• Sorry, dispersal policy is at 51 to 56. Is that what you're asking, Chair?
• Yeah, but we've got, yeah, I can see that, but then I can't see the point raised by the applicant in relation to the smoking area in that.
• If I may ask this, I think the documents were circulated late today to members.
• There we go. So it's part of the, brilliant. Okay, thank you for that. So it's under the supplementary papers, is that correct?
• It will be a supplementary papers in respect of a farm lounge, not the other one.
• Yeah, it's just received a 524.
• Yeah, it was one email sent round to Councillors what I sent round about after five.
• Okay. Sorry, bear with me. Okay, I can see that now. Was there anything else that you wanted to ask on that, Councillor Rathmell, or?
• I mean, not really, I guess it's just to sort of note that there would be sort of consistent noise if there would be up to five people outside the venue, potentially all the way through the evening. You know, not just the evening, the early hours, the morning as well.
• Yeah, but so I suppose this one stays on page two of it, not more than five people at any time to be allowed in the outside smoking area, which would be supervised by an SIA door supervisor. I suppose my kind of question would be, it's kind of a bit of a change. I mean, I know it's not necessarily a major factor for our decision, but I think it would be interesting to hear how it's kind of a change in the way that we're interested to hear how it's kind of a change in the business model, kind of from a bar restaurant to kind of what's been suggested by the Licensing Authority that it's a nightclub, but you strongly say, This is not a nightclub. And I suppose my question then would be, well, what is it? That's to you, Mr. Olasola.
• Oh, all right, okay.
• And you are the applicant.
• A bit more of a feel of kind of what it is that the change, the variation would be seeking to do. So you've got on mute again there, so sorry.
• Muted again, oh.
• Could you repeat that again? Sorry, just because we didn't catch the first bit of it.
• Am I muted now?
• You're unmuted now, but for about 10 seconds there, I couldn't hear anything.
• Oh. Am I hard now? I'm sorry.
• We can hear you now, yes, yep.
• Okay, thank you very much, Chair. The premises, like we said, is still a restaurant. It's not operating like a nightclub. The reason why the extension was being sorted was because most of the customers do come late and they are professionals that patronize the premises. And the weekend will pretend a very good time for them to come out and then to have a feel of the menu and the food that has been served on the premises. So it's not that it's gonna be operating like a nightclub, really. Thank you, Chair.
• Would it be, I mean, I'm not saying this is set in stone, but I think if the committee would consider a condition in which that stated about drinking of alcohol only when sat down with a meal in the restaurant, particularly in the kind of basement bit, is that something that you and the applicant would consider?
• Yes, that can be considered that the meal can be auxiliary to the alcohol intake as well, because it is pertinent to also know that it's not a alcohol-driven premises. So it's together with the food and there's a lot of food going on because late night refreshment is part of the licensable activity. We're asking for extension four. So definitely it will be part of the activity there. Thank you, Chair.
• Thank you, and on page 48 of our packs and the Annex B.14, the premises will notify and invite residents in the locality of the premises to a resident meeting once every three months. I think that'd be, yeah, I think it'd be interesting to, I think the committee and I would be interested to hear a little bit more about that, about how you would engage with residents. Is this something you're doing already? But yeah, it sounds encouraging. So I think it would be good to hear a little bit more on point 14.
• Yeah, this condition, Chair, was actually added when we considered all the risk assessment for the premises. That is to engage all the residents. And this is kind of envisaging and we are planning ahead that in case, if there's going to be any complaint, we will include that in the condition that the phone contact number of the DPS would be made known to the residents. So if there is any complaint during the course of that period, any of the three months, if there's any complaint, we will engage with the residents in a meeting and then we address all those concerns.
• But I suppose my question was more, how are you going to do that? And which residents? Is there any streets specifically in the surrounding area or is this something that you've kind of already been doing?
• It's something we are hoping to do and something we've been doing at the moment right now.
• I mean, Mr. Campbell, I don't know if there was, was this anything that you maybe wanted to come in on if you're kind of a bit more hands on in the premises?
• Yeah, I can comment. We can leave a box outside of the venue. We can write a complaint box if anybody have any concern. So they can drop a letter there or we can leave all contact details there for the local residents. If they have any issues that they can contact us.
• Yeah, but I suppose it was more about the, 'cause it specifically mentions about notifying and inviting residents in the locality to the premises for a residence meeting. So I just, I suppose I was wondering, had something been in place at present to kind of galvanize a bit of community engagement so far?
• The people who leaves a part of the venue, so I'll say there's a few floods, which they are close to us. So with them, we can have regular meetings like every three months or every two months. We can invite, so if they have any concern, they can raise that with us.
• Thank you, Councillor O'Hara, yes.
• Yeah, just following on from that. So just to clarify this, is this an agreement that's in place already with your residents? Are you already having meetings with them every periodically?
• I'll be honest, we've been, as I mentioned before, we're here since 2018. So the people who leaves a bow, obviously they know us as we restaurant, they're buying food from us, and we know them as the same landlord we have. The people who leaves a bow there, obviously they have lease from landlord. So they never had any issue with us. So that's why I believe they didn't object anything. And even we have a good relationship with the local residents who are there to us around. So we've been here since how many years? Five, six years, 2018 has been six, seven years, yeah.
• Okay, Councillors, was there any other questions specifically for the applicants at this stage? No, and I think I'd probably, yeah, mine will more come under the objections under OLA. So I suppose at this point, I would say thank you to the applicants at this stage, and we're gonna invite interested parties to contribute, which I believe at this point that the representations that have been made have been from the licensing authority. OLA, is that over to you at this stage?
• Yeah, thank you, Chair. The license and authority of submitted representation against the application, 'cause the initial thought, I think the hours been sought are the potential for the premises to be operated as a nightclub, which is one of our concern. And I'm glad the applicant has agreed to accept the condition that you've proposed to them to operate as a restaurant as where alcohol is sold and celery is sold in the mill. I think that address our concern slightly, but our concern hasn't fully gone away because even though the operation of the premises as a restaurant now going forward until 3 a.m. on a Friday to Sunday, it's going to cause some issues with resident. And I understand from the applicant, the license order that they have been operating at the premises for quite some time and they haven't had any complaint. Yes, I will expect them not to have a complaint because they are operating with regards to the policy hour and up till midnight, which I believe they're very reasonable hours in a residential area. But once you start operating lot till 3 a.m. I think they're moving into a different territory and they finish serving alcohol at 3 a.m. likelihood for customers to leave the premises say half an hour later, 3.30. So I know Brixton Road is a very busy area, but then if you have 70 people departing the restaurant at 3.30 a.m. and definitely that's going to cause some nuisance to residents. And I understand from the dispersal policy by the applicant and they've put some thought into it and there's some good mitigating measures in the dispersal policy. But what SIA does have cannot control is spontaneous noise from customers when they have a very good evening and they're departing happy and joyous from the premises. I think they're saying their goodbyes and the rest of it. I think the noise has already happened, resident living above the premises and some even next to the premises on both side in some flats above the premises is at two or three different flats living above them. So the noise already happened. So by the time SIA does have intervened to tell customers to be quiet, resident living above the premises already been woken up. And sometimes when you have patrons driving to licensed premises, which is not unusual, then they will leave the premises happy singing to their cars wherever they parked in the nearest residential area. SIA does have as no control of that as they depart from it because their immediate control is around the premises in the front of the premises. They cannot and we don't expect them to follow or chaperone customers to their cars to tell them to be quiet. So that's out of their control and the section 182 guidance of the Licensing Act does recognize that we cannot put that responsibility on licensed premises once patrons moved away from the immediate premises. So we wouldn't, I think there's no way SIA those staff will be able to control that. And our licensing policy also recognize that noise nuisance is particularly intrusive at night when the ambient noise in the area is very quiet. And I don't see from the dispersal policy how the premises can adequately manage dispersal from patrons. And I know they've said smoking outside the premises would be limited to five number. The pavements along that part of the road is not that busy. I think once we have five people standing outside, then you maybe may have queue of people wanting to get into the premises. So members of the public, not even visiting the premises may likely to be disturbed because prevented from walking along the pavement and maybe pushed to a very busy road, which is often packed, fill up with cars, especially very late in the evening. So that concern is still there, even though they're likely to be operating as a premises. I mean, mitigating measures in the dispersal policy as I said, is welcome, but I don't think this application up till 3 a.m. is suitable for the area. It is a residential area, resident living above the premises, resident living nearby to the premises on residential streets. So I think the grant of this application onto 3 a.m. will have significant adverse impact on resident in the area. So I will ask the committee to refuse the application.
• Thanks, Ola. Committee, I mean, I'll kick off a kind of a question 'cause it's specifically around sound and sound travelling. I mean, do we know, and I will come back to the applicants maybe on the kind of final summary on this as well, but soundproofing, you know, for something like this, because especially there's an application here about recorded music. When licensing officers go and visit these for variations on applications, is it something that we, did you feel it was satisfied that this is a place that, you know, we'll be able to play loud music that isn't gonna spill into the streets or is that being part of your decision why you think to reject?
• I think with sound, I think colleagues from public protection are best the expert to give you. But I think from my layman licensing object of licensing officer's point of view, I think the applicant has proposed conditions saying they will have a noise limiter installed. That will help. But then we can, that will control the noise from music. But what noise limiter or SIA does have said it would not be able to control is the spontaneous noise from customers outside the premises, waiting for their taxis, going to their cars. And I know as part of the dispersal policy from the applicant, they have said they will encourage patrons to sit in their premises, waiting for their taxi. But it's good enough to encourage them. You can't force them to sit if they don't wanna sit. And sometimes once they're waiting for car, they may want to come out and get fresh air waiting for their taxi. So there's a likelihood of customers staying outside where SIA does have would not be able to control.
• And you can't obviously make people stay inside of venue if they don't want to, right?
• No, I don't think you can force them to do that Council.
• No. Colleagues, was there any other questions that you wanted to ask Ola at this stage? (silence)
• I mean, there was one other, I mean, could you just a correction for me? I don't know if I read correctly on this application. Thank you for specifically on, I can see it on page 40 and 42. Was it for what Christmas Eve and Christmas Day to be open from 11 till 3.30? Have I got that right? Or is it not on Christmas Eve, Christmas Day? I wasn't sure if I was reading correctly. (silence)
• Is there a question for me, Councilor or for the applicant?
• Yes, yes.
• Okay, I'm just trying to find.
• Page 42 on our papers. It says Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, 11 till four. And the New Year's Eve, New Year's Day. There could be a typo, I'm not sure, but.
• I think from the application, that's what they've applied for. I think it's not unusual these days for some people not to have Christmas meal at home. They may, if that's one of the offers, they want to provide, then yes, I think they're free to do that. But then, yeah, I think we're more concerned, I think if you wish to refuse that, we're more concerned of the happenings on a Friday, Saturday and Sunday regularly rather than Christmas. And they may not be coming out on Christmas Day to take up this facility. But I think we're more concerned of the happenings regularly on a Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
• Yep, I hear that. It was just definitely, it was just an unusual addition, I think, I just thought I personally, I was seeking clarification on. All right, at this stage then, so committee, if you've got no other questions for Ola as the licensing officers, I suppose we have an opportunity to bring the applicant back to ask any other additional kind of comments or questions from, given what you've heard, if there's any other points you would like to address, either from what the committee have said or from what the licensing officers have said. Nope, Mr. Ola, Scarlett, Councillor Harris, sorry, did you want to come back in with another question?
• Thanks, Chair. I guess I just would like to know a little bit more about the disposal policy about how the applicants see they would be dealing with people leaving the premises and catching taxis or Ubers or getting public transport home, how they would be managing that, what sort of information they plan to give out and how they will deal with people outside on the pavement, potentially being noisy and causing nuisance to the residents, particularly above.
• Yep, Mr. Aldisolo, do you want to answer?
• Yes, please. Really, yes. As part of the disposal policy, thank you, Chair, like what Ola said, we can't keep people really sitting down inside the premises, but we will give them the taxi and the cab numbers. And these days you have the app, Ubers, all the taxis that you can think of, but customers will be encouraged to pre-order their bookings, I mean, to book their cabs before they come to the premises and before they leave the premises. This would be highly encouraged so that we don't have people dispersing into the premises at a goal at one point in time, rather exit from the premises will be staggered and I can ensure that exit from the premises will be staggered. Now, all the door supervisors will be properly trained and brief to make sure that at the end of the licensing activities, patrons will not be allowed to just jump into the road and coagulate, that is having so many people at the same time on the road premises and outside the premises as to disturb the neighbours and the residents. So this will be encouraged and phone numbers will be given to them. And then some of the door supervisors will be made street marshals to make sure that our noises from outside the premises will be reduced seriously. Thank you.
• So you're going to have street marshals on top of SIA staff?
• Yes, we have street marshals, yes.
• Could you tell us a little bit more about that?
• No, these are just people that will be trained. In addition, that is their domain, but they will be trained to make sure that whenever they go to their cars, they don't jam their cars. When they open the cars doors, they don't jam their cars or play music or whenever they are going to the cars, whenever they are exiting the premises environment, they make sure that they maintain decorum and order. So this is what the street marshals will actually be doing.
• Sorry, just for clarification, do you mean the SIA staff?
• Yes, the SIA, one or two of them will be trained as street marshals as well.
• Okay.
• Yes.
• So it's not additional people to manage that?
• No, it's not additional people.
• Okay.
• We can delegate one of them as a street marshal during the weekend periods to make sure that people are channeled to their cars and they are escorted to their cars to make sure that noises are reduced. Thank you, John.
• Sorry, I'll let the applicant come back in first on that or if I may, and then I'll come over to you. Please, Mr. Campbell, you go ahead.
• Thank you, sir. Basically, we will not have 70 people in a premises at one time, MI 30, MI 20, MI 40, MI 15, MI 10. And those patrons, they're not gonna leave one time and a closing time. So obviously, as a restaurant, they can come as a couple, they can have a meal, drink, and then maximum, maybe stay one hour, two hours max, they will stay, they will leave. As we said, we're not a nightclub, we don't have a dance floor. The licensing officer most welcome can assist the place. There's all table and seating, and all the customer will be seated by member of staff. And is it all table service? So I believe that the licensing authority have the opinion like there's a nightclub, which is not.
• Okay, cool. On that point, and then I'll take a look at taking this to deliberation shortly, if there was any other questions from colleagues. But Ola.
• Thank you, chair, for the opportunity. I think I just want to come back to what the applicant, Mr. Olusola, said, I think it's a spontaneous response to say they're gonna have marshals escorting people to their cars. I think from my experience as a licensing officer, those staff only monitors the vicinity of the premises. They don't escort people to their cars because of if anything happens to them, they're not covered. They've been told by their companies to just deal with their primary assignment, which is the premises. So if a resident or patron parks two, three streets down from the premises, are you expecting your SIE staff to follow them? How many people do they want to follow at each time? Then that leaves the premises vulnerable. If anything happens to the premises, how do you ensure people on the premises, licensing objectives are promoted? I think that's, to me, it's fanciful. It's not going to work in real times. Thank you, chair.
• Thank you. I think the only other kind of point for me to kind of rave was on page 48 of the Annex B under our PACS colleagues. Point 15, where it says that there should be no new admission or readmission of the public to the premises on weekends after 100 hours. With the exception of those that temporary leave to smoke in the designated area at the front of the venue. Suppose the question is then why be open until 3 a.m.? That's to the applicant.
• Why we, sorry.
• To Mr. Otisulo, or yes, to yourself, sir. So if there's going to be no readmission after 100 hours, then I suppose, why go for 3 a.m. instead of 1 a.m.? In terms of your application, your variation, you're going for a 2.30, but to close at one, but yet people will not be admitted unless it's after 1 a.m. But then once they're in, they're in, I get that. But I just think it's, why go for the 100 hours as opposed to 3 a.m. as opposed to 1 a.m.? Does that make sense?
• Yes. Thank you, Chair. We put that as part of the condition because of people that are going to smoke, so that whenever they smoke, they'll be allowed back into the premises. It doesn't have to do with the end of licenceable activity. Licenceable activities are finished at 2.30. So, but what we don't want to do is to admit people who have been coming or they are coming from different other areas. So we keep people that are in the premises already and allow them to finish their meal and to finish whatever they are having. So that was why we put that time in as 2.30 as opposed to 100 hours. Thank you, Chair.
• Okay, brilliant, thank you. Okay, well colleagues, so it's at this stage where we ask you to stay on the line, don't go anywhere. Obviously, go and get yourself a drink if needs be, refreshments. But we will go back to our other room to deliberate. And this can take anywhere between 15 minutes, half an hour, up to an hour. But hopefully it won't be any longer than between that. So just say as well to the second application this evening. If you can stay on the line too, but we will probably be looking to get to within the next half an hour, 45 minutes. So if you bear with us, we will be back soon. Thank you.
• Hello, everyone. This is Jacqueline Pennycote, Democratic Services, just to let you know that the committee will be joining the meeting in about between five to 10 minutes. Thank you. This is Jacqueline Pennycote, Democratic Services, just to let you know that the committee are now going to rejoin the main meeting. Oh, thank you. Are we all back in Jacqueline or? Ah, there we are.
• Yes, we are.
• There we go. Sorry, I wasn't sure if it was my side evening at all. Do I have my committee alongside me, Councillor Hara and Rathmell? I do. And we have Selina in the room as well. And of both applicants. And I think we are going to move on to the next one.
• Okay, thank you. So we're going to move on to the next one. And we have Selina in the room as well and of both applicants in the room, Mr. Olasola. And let me just bring up my notes, but forgive me. Sorry, it was Mr. Carmwall. Thank you. Okay, thank you. So thank you for bearing with us. And the result, our decision is as such. Members of the subcommittee have considered the variation application for Palm Lounge and listen to the representatives of the applicant and the licence and authority. The subcommittee understood that the hours in the council's policy are not absolute and are intended as a guide for applicants and that each application must be considered on its own merits. And that the applicant seeking hours later than those indicated in the policy should provide detailed evidence as to why their application would not have a negative impact on the licence and objectives. The subcommittee determined that it has not seen or heard sufficient evidence to allow it to step outside the policy in this request. As such members were not satisfied to depart from the recommended terminal hours of 2,300 hours, Sunday to Thursday and midnight, Friday and Saturday. In addition, members were not satisfied that the proposed dispersal did enough to uphold the licence and objective of public nuisance. As such, the subcommittee is determined to refuse the variation application. Of course, we all get a written decision about this. I believe within five days. And of course we understand that appeal can be made, but as such, that's the decision of the licensing subcommittee. Thank you very much for your time and coming along this evening. We're going to now move on to the next hearing. Thank you. Mr. Carmel, so you're welcome to stay, I suppose for the rest of the meeting as well, or but then at this point we are now going to be moving on to the next item on the agenda. So to kick off the second part of the meeting, Ola, I believe are you going to be introducing this?
• Yes, I am, Councillor.
• Thank you.
• It's an application for a new gambling licence for a bingo premises at 192 Norwood Road. The operating hours for the premises are 9 a.m. to midnight and gaming machines will also be available during these hours. In attendance for the applicant, Mr. Andrew Woods was the representative of the applicant and Alan Callas is one of the directors of the applicant's company. 20 representations were submitted against the application, two from ward councillors, one from West Norwood and Tulsa Bead and 17 from members of the public. 10 of the objectors have confirmed their attendance and if I could clear on through the list, Kanwal Aluwalia, Jeremy Richmond, Charlotte Ashworth, Councillor Fitzroy, Jules Pritchard, Bennett Spencer, Christopher Miller, Anna Wagg, Melissa Pritchard and Ellen A's MPs also received three confirmation from objectors that Ellen A's MPs will be representing them at this evening's hearing. And the residents are Thomas Uwag, Michael Borlase and Councillor Cowell. During the application process, the applicant has been in extensive discussion with the licensing authority and a number of conditions have been agreed which are at pages 79 to 100 of the committee report back. The application form is at pages 75 to 80 of the pack and the plan for the premises is at page 81. Additional documents from the applicant are at pages 85 to 110 and the representations are at pages 113 to 137, including the two which were sent as additional supplementary documents. That concludes my introduction unless members have any questions for me.
• Gone from me at this stage. Colleagues, any questions to Ola?
• Nope, thank you very much. And I'm sure we'll come back to you if and when we need. I'm just very conscious. I just want to say thank you to everybody for holding tight while we got the first application out of the way. I know there's a lot of people that will want to speak on this as put the Ola has just indicated. I just ask for your patience as we kind of go through this part of the meeting. Not everybody will be able to speak for the amount of time to say the applicant or some of the sitting Councillors or the MP but you all will have your moment to speak. So please just bear with me as we kind of get through the meeting and the hearing. At this stage, can I just ask Mr. Woods, are you here?
• Yeah.
• There you are. Hi, Mr. Woods, good evening.
• Hi.
• And Mr. Callas, I'm not sure if you're here but kind of camera's off type. Ah, yes, there you are. Hello, sir. There's quite a few people on the screen so it goes over to the second page. So good evening. At this stage then, I suppose it's on the representative of the applicant, which I believe is you, Mr. Woods. I'll give you up to five minutes.
• Thank you, Councillors. As Ola has mentioned, this is an application for a bingo premises licence under the gambling act 2005. As you will be aware and Selena will advise the considerations under the act slightly different to the licence act 2003. Aiming to permitting as far as the application is reasonably consistent. In my five minutes, I hope to try and as briefly as possible explain how the applicant promotes all the licensing objectives. I appreciate and I probably won't be able to do everything in five minutes, but hopefully refer you to various documents. Could I just say at the outset that the applicant takes the promotion of the licensing objectives very seriously, in particular protection of the vulnerable, protection of the vulnerable will include those under age, those with potential addictions and those with mental health issues. We fully appreciate that many people don't like the gambling premises and there are various objections which make that very clear. We understand that Mr. Callis takes his responsibilities very seriously and will do everything possible to promote those objectives including protecting the vulnerable. The application hours have been amended. It started off at 24/7, they've been amended to zero, 900 to midnight. There was extensive liaison with the licensing team and that has resulted in the following documents being included in your papers, pages 92 to 96. Some additional information including operating policies from the applicants, 97 to 132 conditions have been agreed with licensing, 101 to 105, an addendum to the LARA providing additional information and then 106 to 110, a legal summary which I'm not gonna refer to. I'm sure Selena will have noticed it and will look at that as well. The conclusion of the liaison with the licensing officer is that the licensing officer at 1.7 is satisfied that concerns of the licensing officer of your licensing department have been addressed and there are no representations from the police. The conditions agreed with the licensing officer are extensive and detailed and they're at 97 to 100 and they set out amongst other things protecting, trying to protect the area, protecting people who were coming into the premises. The applicant is a small independent operator. He operates five of the premises. He's very much hands-on with his business partner. One of them will visit most of the premises every day. He supplied machines to pubs in this particular area and in the additional information sections A to R, are many, sets out many of the ways that he operates. In these premises, the staff are not behind the counter. It's not like a betting shop. They are on the floor. They will have clear line of sight of everybody coming into the shop. There's no under 18s allowed in. Frankly, under 18s aren't generally attracted to these premises. And when customers are in the shops, they are monitored by staff through interactions, which are recorded through talking to them, through understanding them. And Mr. Callis also has something that many operators don't have. He has a ticket in, ticket out system, which allows him to monitor the amount customers are spending as they are playing. And having done several of these applications, that's something that not many operators have. Now, I don't have time in the five minutes to go through all of those details, but they're all set out in the way in which staff will interact with customers and look after the customers as they are required to do so in the additional info and the addendum to Lara. Could I just say one thing about the fact it's a bingo application because Mr. Callis is criticized for that. This is not going to be the old fashioned bingo hall that many people think of when you think of a bingo application. Under the gambling act, you could have a certain amount of machines as an adult gaming center and exactly the same machines as bingo premises. But what you can't do as an adult gaming center is play bingo. And Mr. Callis will be putting in the shop if the application is granted bingo terminals so that customers can play games of bingo through the terminal during the day. And there are also national games twice a day as well. That's why he's applied for a bingo license because he wants to provide bingo, but it's perfectly right to say that as a result of having a bingo license, he can also have machines in the shop as well. In terms of protecting the vulnerable, which is clearly incredibly important, I'd ask you to look at the additional information at 9296, staff meeting and greeting and assessing customers, staff trained to look for vulnerability, staff monitoring customers who are in the shop, prominent posters and leaflets for self-help, regular interactions recorded and reviewed, no under 18s allowed in the premises and challenge 25, watching carefully as they are trained to do so for issues of vulnerability. Many of these are reflected in the conditions, specific training on local issues, need to contact, need to update regularly the risk assessments and the potential impact on the area. These premises have had a premises license before under the Gambling Act. These premises operated as a betting office for many years, and they stopped operating as a betting office when Betfred the operator walked away. I don't see any specific points relating to issues that were caused when these premises previously traded under the Gambling Act 2005. So there is history of this particular site being licensed. Mr. Callas is more than happy to go over and above what is required to do so to assist in terms of any local issues. He will have two cameras on the front of the shop. Those cameras will monitor the exterior outside of the shop. That's nothing to do with the interior and his shop. That's to do with assisting the locality and the police can have access to those cameras. And if the police are required, Mr. Callas will put cameras at the back of the shop as well. He wants to try and ensure that this shop, which has been closed for many years, becomes part of the local community, and he will continue to work with the police and licensing and local people as they wish to do so. I appreciate that Mr. Callas appreciates that gambling is something that many people don't think should be on the high street. Mr. Callas would be more than happy to meet with education establishment, youth and community centers if the license is granted prior to opening. That hasn't taken place yet. He hasn't signed a lease because it's dependent on a license being granted, but there is a list of establishments in the addendum to the law at page 102. And if the local councilors, if the license is granted, would like to meet Mr. Callas, he would be more than happy to do so to work with the local community. He does not want to cause issues to the community. He does not want to cause issues to the vulnerable people. It is his responsibility under the act not to do so, and it is his responsibility under the act. Gambling Commission's operating license to promote the licensing objectives. He does this in his other five shops and will do so at this shop. Sorry, that was a very quick whistle-stop through, but that's just a summary of the application, Councillor.
• Very useful, Mr. Woods, thank you. Committee, Councillor Zohara, Rathmell, is there any questions that you'd like to lead with at this time? Councillor O'Hara.
• Yep, thank you, Chair. I'd like to ask how well the applicant knows this area. So I understand that the other five shops are in quite a different part of London, not in South London. And I've also seen a few errors in the application where the names of some of our other licensed premises are incorrect. And in fact, the nearest licensed premises, which is the Queen of the South pub, is admitted altogether. So I'm wondering how well you know this area, this street, and this parade of shops. And also where does the owner live? So you mentioned in your introduction and in the report that he might come to visit or be available if needed at the premises. But I wonder where he lives, if his other premises are in a different part of London.
• Could I ask Mr. Callis to answer that question himself? It might be better if he did.
• So what, both questions or?
• Yeah, well, I think Mr. Callis needs to answer the question as to how well he knows the area.
• Okay, so that's both questions then in terms of live. Yeah, okay, Mr. Callis, over to you.
• Could I just say to Councillor Robertson, could I just say to Mr. Callis, who's not done these hearings before, if he could give a general indication as to where he lives rather than the specific attracts.
• Yes, absolutely.
• Yeah, yeah.
• Absolutely, a lot of times.
• Just for the avoidance as well, just for difference with the committee, if you could refer to chair just for the meeting as well, please, that'd be useful. Thank you, Mr. Callis.
• Right, okay, I'm happy to answer the two questions. So I currently live in Croydon. So some 30 minutes drive to West Norwood, Tulsil. I know the area fairly well due to my background of working in the single site pub industry, supplying machines to various public houses, hotels, et cetera, around that particular area. So in the past, I've provided machines to the station hotel, which is alongside Tulsil Railway Station, and the Queen of the South pub, as it's now called, was briefly called the White Hart, and we was a supplier of machines into that premises as well. So yeah, distance-wise, it's not far, and I'll certainly be in this shop in the beginning, almost daily, as I do in all our previous shops. So I think I've got a fairly good background of the area.
• Okay, thank you. Was there anything else you wanted to jump in with, Councillor O'Hara, or?
• Just to note that there were errors in the application with some of the names. So there's a little bit of a question mark there why that happened, but if you know the area well, I am surprised that they appeared. I guess I'm also wondering really about the, perhaps this is a wider question, but really why, I noticed that the original application for what was a betting shop, but a gambling premises, actually was granted in 1973. So that's 50 years ago, more than 50 years ago. So obviously the area has changed quite considerably in 50 years. So I'm wondering how you feel that it's still a relevant activity for this area, because obviously the area has changed quite a lot. And if you know the area well, you would also know that. I have other concerns as well, but I'm just wondering about your view on that.
• Thank you. George, should I come to Mr. Callis again? Yes, direct, lovely.
• Sure, yeah. I mean, the area is, I'm not aware of how it was in the last 30 to 50 years, but more recently, I'm aware of a number of betting shops closing in the area. So there was a Ladbrokes just down the road on the one-way system, which closed some four or five years ago. And the existing shop that we're talking about, the Betfred closed a year and a half ago. So part of my process with my thinking would be that it's left a bit of a vacuum and there's an opening for maybe one gambling premises to take over the role of two previous shops that had closed, despite it being a different form of gambling. We don't offer betting. But we just see potential in the area. There's quite a good level of footfall in that particular area. There's a station across the road, which is an attraction. So there's many factors why we've chosen that particular area. And it's one I've personally been looking at for quite a few years. I hope that answers the question.
• Thank you. Councillor Retham, I won't come to you just yet. I suppose, if I may, on the floor plan, which is on pages 81 and 83 of our packs, it doesn't give us much in the way of detail, I suppose. And I think as Mr. Woods alluded to in his introduction, I think maybe other people would have a different idea of what bingo was, especially these days when it seems to be everywhere at the minute and drag bingo and the likes or whatever else. So I just wondered if you could just give us a bit more of what it might look like or what the inside of this might look like and what would be available because it's going to be a bingo licence, but not any, yeah, I suppose I'm just intrigued and interested as to what the actual detail will be of the floor plan and of what's going to be on offer, basically.
• Right, shall I answer that, Andrew? Yeah, so I suppose a typical shop of ours would, on entry, would have an entrance lobby. So there'd be a wall on the right or left or immediately in front with various notices on. And the size of the shop will have machines alongside. Running up the walls. In the centre, we'd have one or two sit-down machines. So in terms of the bingo, the terminal would sit, we'll have a terminal of six or 10 plane positions, which would be circular and sit in front of the shop. We always ensure that we have a clear line of sight throughout the shop. Hence why we have the lower sit-down models of machines in the middle of the shop. So yeah, the reason why we can't do a specific layout by machine is because machine types change and we continually update our products and they come in different shapes or sizes. So it'd be very, very difficult to do a layout plan to itemise every single machine and every machine location. Due to a change in market, it's not a fixed, it's never fixed.
• I mean, just for say, as someone who's never maybe stepped in a kind of a bingo or something like this, but what is bingo in 2024, '25, I suppose that's just, that was the intrigue, I suppose, where I was coming from. So I suppose it won't be just necessarily bingo machines as per what was outlined earlier, that there might be an inclusion of other kind of gaming, gambling options, basically.
• Right, yes, it'll be a mixture of gaming and bingo.
• Thank you. Sorry, Councillor. Councillor Rathmore, did you have anything at this stage? Just not the minute?
• Yeah, just I guess for, I think it's Andrew, isn't it? I mean, do you have any evidence that gambling facilities such as this don't cause a rise in crime or disorder?
• I think all I can say is that as far as Mr. Callis is concerned, his other five venues, one or two of which I think have opened recently, they haven't led to an increase in crime and disorder. And in fact, in this site, Councillor, the site's redundant and closed at the moment. He'll be putting lights up and CCTV on the outside, which generally may improve in that immediate area outside. But I think it'd be wrong if I answered for other people, but certainly Mr. Callis' sites haven't caused an increase in crime or disorder or are connected with it really.
• Can I just add something to that point?
• Yes, please.
• We complete quarterly returns to the gambling commission. Part of that return process includes giving them data about certain gambling issues, such as self-exclusions, customer interactions, and the amount of times police have had to visit our premises. And some documents out here, in the last 12 months, we've had two incidents that have required police visits. So I think that kind of answers your question in a way, but it's very, very rare that the police have had to come out to any of our premises to deal with any crime problems.
• Thank you, Mr. Callis.
• So just one more question.
• Yes, go for it.
• I think you were saying how you would, yeah, if at any time the police or licensing authorities applied the premises names on our photographs of individuals which it wishes to be banned from the premises, you'll use all reasonable endeavours to implement the ban. Would you also work with local organisations which work with vulnerable people to ensure that individuals from those organisations that live nearby wouldn't be accessing the premises?
• Sorry, Andrew. Yeah, absolutely, yes, we'd be more than happy to work with these groups. So yeah, they're more than welcome to meet, yeah, once the shop has progressed.
• I think just one other quick thing. I think I said it in my comments, and I probably went a bit too quick. There's a list of educational facilities and youth and community centres. I think it's page 102. If the licence is granted, and I asked Mr. Callis this earlier today, he would happily write to those facilities and ask if they wanted a meeting and have a six monthly catch up with them by contacting them again. Councillor O'Hara I'm sure is right that there may be a mistake or two in there, but if there's any others that we've missed, I think Mr. Callis certainly understands some of the feeling in the area 'cause we've read all the representation. So yes, we'd be more than happy to condition that we contacted those facilities and others suggested by local councillors.
• That's great, thank you. I mean, just before I come to you Councillor O'Hara, I mean, I suppose my question would be given some of the feeling of some of the representations, this kind of promise of what you would do if granted the licence, I suppose my question would be what engagement has been done during this process and why wasn't it done in the run up to? So was there anything done with the residents? Was there stuff done with the bid? Especially considering that gambling premises might be kind of controversial in some areas. So I don't know what was done in the run up to it and if not, why not?
• I think the feeling, Chair, and you could be wrong on writing this, was that Mr. Callis hasn't signed a lease. He doesn't have a licence.
• Gotcha.
• Very upfront, there hasn't been that liaison. If a licence is granted, he'll sign the lease and before he opens, then he would contact these people and these establishments prior to opening and if necessary, send the results of the meeting into licensing and I'm sure he'd be quite happy to, if they wanted to copy in those on the committee as well. I know that's maybe a step too far, but no, I'd rather be straight about it. Nothing's happened 'cause he doesn't have the lease. If he gets the lease and the licence, he would do.
• Thanks, but no, I appreciate that, Mr. Woodside. It just feels that maybe it was something to consider when starting the process of that, maybe the resident engagement part is a key factor in some of that early discussions, but as such, sorry, Councillor Harrah, I know you've had your hand waiting patiently there.
• No problem, thank you, Chair. Yes, so I have some questions about the prevention of crime in that area. I think if you know the area well, then you will be aware that there's been some quite serious crime in that area. I don't know if you're aware of that, Mr. Callas, but a murder last year and also I think a couple of years before that also in that very close to that area, so like a few yards down from the premises and also near the station. So I'm very keen to know how you would address instances of potential antisocial behaviour or more serious violent crime near your premises, outside your premises, or perhaps even inside your premises. I also want to ask about the school and children crossing the road and leaving the school, but if you want to talk about the prevention of more serious crime, that might be the first place to start.
• In terms of crime, Councillor and then Mr. Callas can say anything after just to assist. In the conditions, which starts on page 97 and there's no need to go to them now, that the first four to 12 are conditions about CCTV and security, full CCTV, facial recognition, provide information to the police, et cetera, within 24 hours, notices about CCTV. Condition nine is having a detailed instant log. Each member of staff has a staff guard system which allows them to press a button, which is then an external security company has access to the premises. Challenge 25 in terms of school people and then various conditions at 22 to 28 on potential impacts on local area, participating in local vet watch and other schemes. I mean, the short answer which diminishes really the extent of it is working fully with the local police in terms of CCTV banning people. And also it may be argued that by being open with CCTV outside and that shop being open and lights being on, that there'll be more record of what's going on outside. I'm not arguing that's a massive point now in Mr. Callas's favor, but every security measure that he's able to take, I think he is taking in those conditions, but the key one is, I think the key one is the incident. He has to be bringing the police and saying, there's things going on outside that might not be in my premises, but you need to be aware of them. He needs to be reporting incident that he or his staff see outside and then working with the police to try and ensure as best he can that the area is safe and secure. Do you want to add anything Mr. Callas?
• Just in terms of staff, in the evenings, we double up on staff. So from 7 p.m., we have two staff members in each shop, which we will do in this premises. In our later opening shops, we have SII trained door staff. And we're kind of very reactive. So if we do find incidents occurring, then we'll increase security and we'll increase staff numbers. We had an incident in our shop in Ilford a couple of weeks ago on the start of the evening, actually outside the shop, but a member of staff was threatened. So the following evening, we employed two extra staff and one extra security guard. So we're very reactive. So if we see problems in the pipeline, then we'll react and deal with it accordingly. And that's on top of the other measures that Andrew highlighted.
• Councillor Howard, is there anything to add before I probably would look at maybe looking on to start hearing from the reps?
• So just to clarify for most of the day until seven o'clock, so including at school leaving time, there would just be one member of staff in the premises. And also if something did happen, there is only one member of staff then to deal with that.
• Yeah, we discussed this with Nicole and it's a point well made. Mr. Callis will risk assess the number of staff, depends how busy the shop is, what it's like when he opens. The plan again to be very upfront is one member of staff, but Mr. Callis there a lot of the time and his colleague to start with, there's a lobby entrance to the shop as Mr. Callis said. So people have to walk into the lobby and that alerts member of staff that there's very, the premises are not attractive to school children and those under 18, but staff monitor people coming in immediately and engage with them and see them through the lobby. But yeah, the plan at the moment is that, all the conditions are that there'll be one and Mr. Callis will risk assess whether that works or not.
• Can I ask another question, Councillor?
• You may.
• Thank you. So I also want to ask about the policy for dealing with school children. You'll be aware that there's a school nearby Elm Green where school children and young adults from the sixth form are also walking down quite a narrow piece of pavement and quite often frequent the chicken shop, which is next door to this proposed premises. So I think the building, the premises would have a lot of young adults passing in front of and near the premises. What's your policy for if you've just got one member of staff there checking ID, dealing with challenge to young people's ages and that sort of issues that might arise at school leaving time, especially with people hanging around the shop and going into the next door chicken shop?
• I think that the first answer, I'll let Mr. Callis speak. The first answer, which is a rubbish answer really, is that we just, these types of premises don't have problems with under 18s trying to get in. It's not, there's no music. It's not exciting. They don't try and get in. That's the facts. But of course that doesn't answer your question in terms of what's our policy. The lobby area acts almost as a funnel area so that people walking in will be seen by members of staff at all time. And if the situation arose with one member of staff where one or two people come in who need to be challenged, then the challenge would take place close to the lobby area and people will be asked to wait behind the person who's being challenged before they come in. It's not the biggest premises in the world. But that's the answer in terms of policy. There's a very strict no under 18s in any of these gambling premises. There'll be challenge 25 in operation. The challenge will take place immediately 'cause if they're not got immediately, then they're onto a machine or playing bingo. And if there's a need for more than one challenge, the other person coming in will have to wait. And if that's anything to add to that, Alan?
• Yeah, it's important to remember also that we, how our staff walk the shop floor. So it's not like a focus, for example, where they're stuck behind the counter. So we actually don't have a counter in a lot of our shops. So the staff are very mobile. They're walking around the shop, inspecting the machines and standing by the front door. So as Andrew explained, that the lobby when you enter acts like a funnel. So everybody coming in is visible to the staff members. If we foresee a problem, we also have a mag lock system where the door can automatically lock and a buzzer entry system will come into position, which is sometimes carried out in our other shops. If we see potential trouble brewing outside, we'll operate the mag lock to keep the door locked. And the staff will monitor the CCTV cameras to see what's going on outside the shop. So, yeah.
• Okay. Unless there's any other comments from committee, I think I will kind of park it there for now in terms of the questions for the applicants. But of course, we are subject to what we hear under the representations. We may come back for some other questions before we then lead into deliberation. And I'm conscious to move on because I know we've got some representation. We've got quite a few reps to get through. No, just for one dial in, especially from parliament. So I want to take Helen Hayes MP as the first in terms of the representations. And then I'll go to Councillor Fitzroy and then we'll hear alphabetically from everybody else. So Helen Hayes MP will be representing Thomas Hughes Wake. I hope I've said that correctly. And Councillor Fred Carroll. And you can find Thomas Hughes Wake's representations on page 136 of the papers. So Helen, considering you're going to be speaking, I think it's up to three people. I'll give you up to five minutes to speak.
• Thank you very much, Chair. That's appreciated. The third person is Michael Burler.
• That's it, thank you. I'm speaking on behalf of those three constituents or all constituents of mine. I'll start with each of them, I think, represents that their representations speak to a wider set of concerns. And it's fair to say I've heard from very many local residents with their concerns about this application. The first constituent on whose behalf I'm speaking is Michael Burler, who has premises on prairies and parade muse. I draw your attention, Chair, to Mr. Burler's concerns about antisocial behaviour linked to the previous betting shop in the same premises, the Betfred premises. He describes significant problems of crime and antisocial behaviour, particularly on parade muse itself, which is to the side return of this premises, where there are a number of small businesses who have their premises there. I think that speaks to the challenge of having another licensed gambling premises in this location, the issues that Mr. Burler describes are about people urinating, engaging in antisocial behaviour on parade muse, making the situation really unpleasant for the people who work on parade muse. He also highlights the proximity to two local secondary schools, to City Heights Academy and to the Elm Green School as well. And the fact that this will be exposing young people to gambling on their daily commute to and from school. The second constituent on whose behalf I'm speaking is Mr. Hughes Wake. He highlights concerns about the high level of existing crime and antisocial behaviour in the West Norwood area and the impact of licensed gambling premises. The crime and antisocial behaviour that we see in West Norwood is at a very, very high level at the moment. This is part of a London wide issue, but I would say in my constituency, those problems are particularly intense in West Norwood and Charlotte will speak to this. I know on behalf of local businesses, but as an example the co-op premises, just a few doors down from this premises regularly is the subject of aggressive shoplifting where shoplifters, I've seen video footage myself of shoplifters jumping over the counter, clearing the shelves of alcohol and cigarettes and walking away again. And I'm told by the staff, this happens on a regular basis. And Councillor O'Hara highlighted the murder that happened relatively recently just outside Ira Court. So this is of significant concern. Much of the crime and antisocial behaviour that we have is addiction related. It's related to drug addiction, alcohol addiction and the presence of licensed gambling premises in the area is also a contributory factor for the same individuals who are drawn into a cycle of addiction in this area. And then I would highlight in relation to Councillor Cowell's objection, so Councillor Cowell is my constituent. He is also a former chair of the licensing committee and he highlights the extremely inadequate nature of the mitigation measures proposed in the original application. And I would draw the members of the committee's attention to pages 99 and 100 in particular of the brief that the documents that have been subsequently submitted. I'd flag, firstly, that this was an afterthought that the applicant had to be prompted by officers to submit mitigation measures. And secondly, I'd highlight that they are incredibly weak. So our problem in West Norwood in tackling crime and antisocial behaviour, much of which is addiction related is a resources problem. It is a problem about lack of police resources. It is a problem about lack of council resources. That is our problem. The mitigation measures are on the whole passive mitigation measures and they don't make any contribution at all to the problem of resourcing the tackling of crime and antisocial behaviour in West Norwood. There is no contribution to additional police officers. There is no contribution to additional security guards in the public domain, any of those measures. And there is no contribution to addiction services locally either. So I think what we have here is an application for bingo style games without the social benefits of a bingo hall. We have gambling premises that will be open for an incredibly long period of time in an area where there is a significant issue with crime and antisocial behaviour, much of it related to addiction. And we have very, very little in the way of support for mitigation and for tackling these issues from the applicant in terms of firm commitments. And I just come back to where I started, which is my constituent, Mr. Burler, who says that when there were gambling premises, they had real problems. Those problems stopped since the premises have closed. There is no expectation or no cause for belief that this would be any different. And frankly, we really don't need this in Tulsa Hill, West Norwood at this time. Thank you very much.
• Thank you, Helen. I'm going to go over to Councillor Fitzroy now at this stage. And again, I'll give you up to three minutes if that's okay, Councillor.
• Thank you, Chair. Can I just quickly declare an interest before we start?
• You may.
• I'm a member of a casino, so just to put someone's mind at rest that we are not all anti-gambling out of belief. So I just thought I'd put that on the record.
• Thank you.
• Thank you. So I'm Councillor Alda Fitzroy. I represent St. Martin's Ward where the premises is. I've read the application and additional documents, including the risk assessment that the applicant had previously chosen to keep private. And I still have concerns. Firstly, it's not clear from any of the information submitted in advance, how bingo will be the main activity of the premises. In fact, the only info we have on the types of machines and where they're to be placed is from verbal submissions we've heard this evening. In my submission, I quote from the Gambling Commission Social Responsibility Code that says the LCCP requires that gaming machines are only made available in combination with named non-remote activity of the operating licence. So unless the bingo premises operator offers substantive facilities for non-remote bingo, it should not make gaming machines available for use on the premises. Licencies must ensure that the function along with the internal and/or external presentation of the premises are such that a customer can reasonably be expected to recognise that it is a premises licensed for the purposes of providing bingo facilities. You will see from your papers and the comments in this evening's meeting that it's unclear to most people whether it's meant to be a bingo premises or an adult gaming centre. And the floor plan, as members of the committee have rightly pointed out, provides no detail on the machines. I asked the committee to refuse this application in order for the applicant to be able to consider which type of activity they intend to carry out, bingo or adult gaming, and make the appropriate application with clear information for the committee to consider. This would also allow time for the applicant to provide a more complete risk assessment and engage with stakeholders, which they have so far failed to do. Secondly, people with learning difficulties and SEND are not mentioned in the risk assessment, despite Rathbone and Elm Green being local and having people with those characteristics. Must therefore be assumed that they've not been considered and that the applicant is therefore unable to meet the licensing objectives of protecting vulnerable persons from being harmed or exploited by gambling and is also grounds for refusal. Finally, if the committee are considering granting this licence, I urge them to carefully consider the proposed conditions put forward by myself and Councillor Cowell on page 140. Because the applicants have been passive in their approach to promoting the licensing objectives, failing to contact local councillors and headmasters whose details are public, and not even bothering to engage with the residents directly behind the premises, I have absolutely no faith that they could be relied upon to proactively risk assess the needs for SIA security as they propose and believe that the gaps in their submissions around crime and vulnerable people must be mitigated against at the very least by earlier closing times. Given the concerns about the applicant acting in good faith, we also feel it's important that proposed condition of not making any changes within 12 months is mandated. Thank you.
• Thank you, Councillor Fitzroy. So I have, I believe, eight other people to hear from. So I'm not sure if Kanwal is on the call, but if not, I'm going to come as the bid rep to Charlotte next, and conveniently, your surname is Ashworth. So that's top of the list anyway. So I'm going to come to you next, Charlotte. Again, you have up to three minutes, and I should, for the reference of the minutes, say that your representation can be found under page 116. Thank you.
• Yes, hello. I would like to reiterate what Helen Hayes has said, that Tulls Hill is an up and coming area. We've had a lot of new businesses moving in and taking a punt on kind of the offer there, because like Mr. Kallis said, there's good footfall. But there is a huge problem with drug addicted shoplifting and social behaviour. I have just put in the chat, if anyone wants to have a look at the Met Police kind of crime statistics, the crime map for the St. Martins Ward. And if you zoom in, you can see the Tulls Hill Co-op, which is just a couple of doors down from where the Beckford is. You can see just quite how big the problem is that we have it on that street. So also you made the point, Mr. Kallis or Mr. Wood, that the place has been empty for a while. I have at least three businesses that were interested in taking on that shop. And I contacted the managing agent and three separate occasions to ask, could they come and see what the rent was? And we just didn't get any response. So I think there is a will for other, one of them is a business a few doors down would have liked to take on that shop as well. So the appetite for other businesses to be there is there and present. So the issue that we have with the drug dealing, the dealers, the shoplifters, the addicts, it's not clear how reels will protect these vulnerable people. I'm not, as in what Councillor Fitzroy said, we're not convinced by whatever state, it's very sort of not proactive, it's reactive, what you're trying, what you say you're trying to do. And then I'm thinking of the two schools in the neighbourhood, outside the Tulls Hill Co-op, there's a big wide bit of pavement where they all hang out because there's free wifi. There's a lot of antisocial behaviour there in the summer months, particularly, as you can see in the crime statistics I put in the chat. And I think as a kind of mandatory part of your, if the licence is given, that you should have SIA security there to mitigate against the issues that we have with the drug dealing that will go on, does go on there. And those people that are addicted to drugs also will be potentially tempted in, or drug dealers actively, as in Streatham Business Improvement District, drug dealers actively work within those warm establishments late at night when everything else is closed. So that's my three minutes done.
• Thanks Charlotte for keeping to time and for your contributions. So I don't think Kanwal is on the call. Is that correct? Who I think was?
• I am.
• Well, you are, sorry because you're on my other screen. Apologies. So Kanwal, again, you've got up to three minutes and just for reference, your objection can be found on page 132 of the papers. Thank you.
• Thank you. So yes, I'm a local resident and I live directly above the proposed site. I've lived here for 21 years. I vehemently oppose this application, both at the planning and licensing stage. And having read through the supplementary documentation, I don't feel that the issues have been adequately responded to. So I'll speak to the two points, one about gambling being a source of crime and the other one about protection of vulnerable groups. In terms of crime or disorder, as many others have said, as I wrote in my initial submission, we feel that the casino is likely to exacerbate existing issues on parade news. We have street drinking, public urination, public defecation, loitering, drug dealing, crime. All of that will undermine our efforts to foster a safe community. And as a long-term resident, I can confirm that social behaviour and criminality has definitely reduced as a consequence of Betfred closing. So I dispute the applicant's claim that the fact that the shop will be in operation as opposed to close will enhance the security of the immediate area. The applicant also states they'd be happy to meet with us, i.e. local stakeholders and try and arrange a meeting. I'm afraid this has come very late in the day. I believe this is disingenuous. They've made no efforts whatsoever to consult us, either at the planning nor the licensing stage. And in terms of protecting vulnerable groups, as again, said in my initial submission, I have serious concerns about the effects of gambling on vulnerable adults in the area of whom we see every day, with whom an adult gaming centre with highly addictive slot machines would pose a further risk and I don't think that's been fully addressed, as I said. I don't believe that having leaflets available in the premises for staff to signpost people who need any help with gambling addictions will suffice, or that customers will self-identify as problem gamblers, or indeed self-exclude, should they already have a gambling addiction. I would have expected to see in the documentation, Reels Casino setting out plans to work with local service providers, specialist agencies, to reduce gambling harms on vulnerable groups, especially those with mental health and alcohol abuse issues. The applicant outlined security mitigation in the way of CCTV cameras at the front and rear of the building. This will not suffice, as most criminal and ASB takes place on Parade News itself. There's been no provision made for this in the risk assessment, so additional security will definitely be necessary, such as SIA registered security staff, particularly during evening hours, if the committee is mandated to take that forward. If the committee is minded to agree to licensing permission, which I would feel will be a really grave mistake for the vitality of this area, I strongly recommend reduced operating hours from 9 a.m. to 9, sorry, to 8 p.m., and certainly before pub closing times. And just a slight digression, if you permit me.
• We can only let people speak to what their representations are in the papers, I'm afraid, Campbell. If it's in there, you can have 20 seconds, but if it's not--
• I won't then, I'll let others speak, thank you. Thank you, Chair.
• That's very honest of you, thank you. Next up, I have Christopher Miller, whose objection can be found at 117, and I hope he's still there, 'cause I think the camera went off earlier. If not, I can skip ahead until he comes back. And go to Giles Pritchard, whose objection can be found at 125. Now, Giles, I know you're here, but I think you might be on my other screen, is that correct? Is Giles here as well? Oh no, oh, Christopher, you came back. I'll go back to you, Christopher, and go, but just unmute yourself, please. And as said, in line with everyone else, we have to speak to whatever your representations are within the papers, and you have three minutes starting, oh, let me get my timer, now.
• Okay. As I said in my submission, the Parade Mews access lane has become noticeably calmer since Betfred closed back in May, 2023. It bothers me that Reales does not seem to consider the lane part of its concern, and only intends to install CCTV on the back of their building, but not overlooking the lane. This is concerning because any kind of trouble seeks out the darkness and invisibility just around the corner of the shop and down Parade Mews. In the past, it was often evident, apart from an intimidating atmosphere and sometimes noisy arguments and threats, that there was a criminal side to incidents down our lane, including drug dealing and use, public urination and defecation. These things together sometimes cause me to delay leaving the mews, even in a car. But my partner, Miranda, who does not use a car, more often felt unable to come down or leave the mews. I was also aware that mums and their children, as well as other users going to and from the potteries, were often quite scared. All this has eased or even stopped since Betfred closed. Finally, and others have raised the point, I'd like to comment that under point two of additional information, Reels clarifies that they are not opening betting premises, but this is an application for bingo premises. However, there is no similar clarification that the main activity is in fact working slot machines, which I believe are highly addictive, and I believe it will attract vulnerable people and inevitably connect with forms of criminality. I cannot see how such a license, if granted, can in any way improve the life of the community in and around this corner of Norwood Road, which we should recall at its worst moment on 15th April, 2023 in the doorway next to Betfred resulted in the stabbing to death of 20-year-old Felipe Oliveira. Thank you.
• Thank you, Mr. Miller. Apologies, is it Mr. Grassi? I didn't have you down as wanting to speak, but are you wanting to speak? You were down on the list, but just not confirmed. If you'd like to, would you want to indicate?
• Yes, I could say a few words.
• That's absolutely, yeah, that's fine. Let me just pop you, just to clarify. I mean, we can clarify which page number you are, but again, you can have up to three minutes. Is it Grassi or?
• Grassi.
• Grassi, okay, over to you, sir.
• Yeah, I've been down in a studio in Parade News for over 15 years, and I can verify. I've seen quite, when I first moved in, I was quite shocked, actually, by the amount of addiction problems that were present in the area of Talshill and which calmed down the music inevitably because it was a dark, private passage. So I've seen drug use, drug dealing, vandalism. We've had several break-ins, and there's been lots of threatening behaviour at that entrance to the muse where young people will congregate, perhaps when I was doing some drug dealing or whatever, and that definitely has happened. And as we've said, unfortunately, there's been very serious violent crime recently. So from my perspective, the last thing we would need is at the entrance to this muse, which we inevitably have to pass, there's no other way out of the muse, would be people congregating on the street, more so than already happens. I agree with Chris, and he's just spoken that there's been a notable reduction in people hanging around that area and coming down the muse late at night. It is quite dark down there, and we have classes, and we have young people and young women walking up and down there regularly. And it already, and I'm a grown man, but it was already quite threatening as you were making your way out of there. So anything that increases this, it seems to be going in the wrong direction from what was surely the direction we should be hoping to travel in. And I don't like the idea of this reactive measures about protecting us. I'd rather not have to be protected. And having doors that would lock potentially aggressive people out of the building into the street, the security guard cannot come out, for example, just spills violent and aggressive behavior into our entrance. So that would not fill me with any, it doesn't absolve the problem in any way. So I think I'll just let other people put their words in. Thank you very much for hearing.
• Thank you, Mr. Grassy. And then I believe I had Mr. Giles Pritchard next. Giles, are you here? Okay, just for the sake of time, I'm going to move on then to, is Mr. Jeremy-- Oh, we're just in the nick of time, Mr. Pritchard. It's okay, don't worry. I know you're waiting patiently. So just for the minutes, this is on page one, two, five of the papers. Yeah, Mr. Pritchard, again, just to remind people, you have to speak to the representations as made in the papers. So with three minutes, start now.
• Sure, hi. Just two points, really. When the bedding shop was still operating, it was usually full of old men, many of the occasional women. And they would drink outside and urinate and make a mess and smash bottles. And then that attracted other people later on in the night. As Andrew and Chris said, it's also quite threatening for even men, let alone the children going to classes that we operate. My wife operates a pottery. So we have lots of kids and groups going down at night and young ladies. And this goes on. They might leave the class at about 9 p.m. I really am against this. It just really depresses me that we've got to go through all of this all over again. The owner might reassure us that there's, in the world, security provision, except there might be one person inside. I'm not really interested in inside. I think the trouble is outside and behind this unit. And even cameras will not stop it. And it's going to go until midnight. That's worrying. All sorts of things happen there and can happen inside. It's just bad news. It's intimidating. It's a magnet for crime and I'm really against it, okay? I'm sorry to the owner, but that's just from the heart. I've been there 20, 30 years now. And it's been really quiet for the last year. I just don't need this.
• Okay, thanks, Mr. Pritchard, thank you. Okay, and then was it Mr. Richmond? Is he online? Did he not make it? Mr. Jeremy Richmond. Okay, I'll move on swiftly then to the final two. Is Mr. Spencer next? Who can be found on page 115.
• Hi, thank you, Councillor Robinson. That's me. So really, I broadly have to very strongly reiterate the points that have just been raised by Chris Miller, Andrew Grassi, Giles Pritchard, and Kounwala. I mean, I've been at Parade News now 12 years working as an artist in a unit. And as it says in my representation, I mean, one of the things that we always have to deal with is the whole associated nature of the antisocial behaviour going on, and it's continuous and ongoing really, and it's often very threatening as well. I think as Giles has just indicated, it isn't the security measures inside the shop. There's so much to the concern. I immediately, when I was listening to some of the representations earlier, I was thinking, well, what happens 20 metres down the road one way? What happens 20 metres up the road the other way? There's not gonna be any security guards dealing with any of that. And the associated problems may well not be in the shop where there is a staff presence. They will be outside the shop when someone's, who may well have their own associated addiction type problems, are very, very unhappy. They've lost money, those sort of issues. And that then causes certain behaviours. And we see all of those behaviours in Parade News. It's also often a very threatening environment. I mean, I have to work late quite often 'cause I'm also working during the day in a different job. And I get on my bike quite often at 11 o'clock at night. It is already at that late hour. It's quite a threatening environment. We simply do not need it to become worse. And I do not believe anything within the planning application is dealing with the associated degradation of the area in terms of all the problems that come out of that, whether it's a physical or verbal threat, whether it's someone urinating or defecating, those kind of issues. And it's all the associated way that the area is dragged down by businesses that seem to run very, quite often run very well inside their premises where there's a management team and a certain professional code of conduct. Soon as you step a metre outside of the door, everything goes wrong 'cause there's no one really managing the public realm appropriately. So I think it's that spreading out into the public space nearby. And at Parade News, we have seen is continuously and ongoing. And it is true that since Betfred closed, there has been a lessening of the associated antisocial issues I'm describing. And we are very fearful that all of that will return and return to 12 midnight. I mean, that's shocking. That really is deeply depressing. I think that's all I've got to say.
• Thank you, Mr. Spencer. I mean, I suppose I should say we can't speak as to planning kind of here at kind of a licensing committee hearing. And I believe the thing about the hours which we will take into consideration when deliberation is the actual gambling licensing policy hours, I believe, but, oh, sorry. My light's gone in my room. Last but no means any least. Thank you for waiting patiently there, Ms. Hughes. Is it warg? I'm sorry, I can pronounce it properly. Oh, I'm just on mute, yeah. I know you're juggling lots there.
• Yeah, it's varga.
• Varga, oh, there you go. I've got it completely wrong. Okay, thank you for waiting. Hannah, over to you for three minutes.
• Okay, thank you. I live directly above the proposed premises at 192. As I said in my objection, one of the things is we've all talked to is preventing gambling from being a source of crime. I'm a mother of two young children currently on maternity leave from a teaching job. So I'm often walking up and down the mews and I see crime, suspicious behaviour, antisocial behaviour several times a week. Just this week, there was somebody who'd stolen stuff from co-op. They quite often come down the mews to crack open the stake they've stolen or whatever it is. Have to get my toddler to avoid stepping in the defecation that's happened in the alley. These issues, as lots of people have said, are at a lower level since Bedford's closed, but these incidents are still alarmingly high in the area. I'm very concerned about what this new premises will do to an already worrying issue. Particularly, as lots of people have said, we knew that these issues were much worse when Bedford was there, another gambling establishment. I would very much like the committee to recognise all the objections to this establishment and reject this application. But if they are minded to approve it, there must be very real and strict parameters in place that will deal with what is undoubtedly an increase in crime and antisocial behaviour. This means strict security, not just cameras, not just one person inside the shop. As many people have said, the problem is outside. The problem is all on Parade Mews. The young man who was killed, Philippe, he and his friends spent a lot of time on Parade Mews. And so, all of that area there is where the issues are. It must close at a reasonable hour, such as 8 p.m., if it gets approved. And as residents, we would request something like a code, a gate or something that we could close at six to just avoid all of those problems down our alleyway. The second point I raised about protecting children and vulnerable members of the community, as loads of people have said, there's two secondary schools in the area. I see students on the mews daily, hanging out, having fights, doing whatever young kids do, right next to that front door of this proposed establishment. And I also see the children coming to and from the artists' studios, music lessons, several times a week, as other people have raised. As I've said in my objection, this is a really vulnerable community, albeit one that we love and one that we would like to see supported to thrive. I often see needs, those not in education, employment or training, down Parade Mews, highlighting, as statistics show, just how vulnerable some of the members of our community are in Tulsa Hill.
• I'm going up to, thanks, Anna, just because that's just over three minutes. Thank you very much.
• David, I haven't had, I haven't spoken.
• Who's speaking to me?
• Melissa Pritchard. - Sorry, Melissa. I didn't have you down as confirmed to speak, Melissa, so that will be why. So hang on, do I need to just-
• I definitely, I definitely was confirmed to speak.
• Just one moment while I'm just quickly consulting, but there's the list of speakers I've had down. Yeah, I don't know, I'm gonna have to get, I know you've definitely have made a- a representation, but yeah, but there's nothing that kind of came through. Olav, would you like to just confirm for us, please?
• Yes, Councillor, she's confirmed she intend to speak. I think that was one of the later responses we had.
• Lovely, okay, as long as you can confirm it. Then three minutes, Melissa, sorry for that confusion. Over to you.
• Okay, thank you. So I've been running Parade Mews for 25 years now. It's, I have adult classes and children's classes and young adults classes. So I have a mix of evening classes that finish at nine o'clock in the evening. And I have three evenings a week. I have teenagers and there is one class that doctors refer the children to. So it might be mental health, it might be eating disorders, self-harming, all these different issues. And so obviously, as people have described, to get to the pottery, you have to go through quite a narrow mews. And this is on the betting office or what it used to be is on the corner of the mews. So you have to walk through often people who have gathered outside the premises, which is really, really, it's very intimidating. A lot of the teenagers, even though they're 18, their parents actually used to walk them down to the class, that has actually stopped since the betcred has closed. They come by themselves. We don't have people gathering at the end of the mews. I really, really oppose this gambling establishment on the grounds that it does attract a certain type of people to gather around. I'm not saying it's the people that go into the premises. It's because the antisocial behaviour is around that area. And that's what we've seen over the years. I would just like to say, everybody said everything there is to say, but I'd just like to say that I really strongly think that it's the wrong place for it to happen because of the situation of it. We have to walk through this very narrow area down to our mews and that's right on the corner of it.
• Thank you. And sorry about the confusion there at the start, Melissa. Charlotte, I'm not able to take any kind of comments or questions now further at this stage, Charlotte, 'cause I've got to take it over to the committee who may have any questions or comment towards the interested parties. So Scarlett, Isla, is there anything that you may have at this time?
• Yes, I have some questions.
• Okay.
• Yeah, so as we've heard from residents and businesses, I also have some concerns about the effect on children.
• Sorry, just one moment, Scarlett. Sorry, Charlotte, I'm going to have to ask you to delete that comment, please, from the chat 'cause that isn't allowed 'cause that would look like it could be leading the panel. So I would ask you to just please just remove that for the time being. There will be another opportunity towards some other comments. Thank you, Scarlett.
• Yeah, no problem. Yes, so I am concerned about the effect on children. And as I mentioned earlier, the premises is on the route. It's just a few minutes away, actually, from the Elm Green School. And it's walked past daily by school children on their way to and from school. So can the applicant explain how a gaming centre, a place that's going to be brightly lit with gaming terminals inside, colorful, brightly lit, how can that be made unappealing to children and young people and indeed vulnerable adults walking past?
• Sorry, was that to the applicant? Sorry, Scarlett.
• Yes, yes.
• So not at this stage then, can I say that? This was for the interested parties who we've just heard from. If there was any of this particular interest, we will then bring that back to the applicants for any kind of final comments, questions. Sorry, I should have clarified that part. This was just specifically, was there anything to ask individually to the people who've just spoken as an interested party? Councillor Rathmell.
• Yeah, I'm not sure who exactly I'm addressing this to 'cause there's so many people, but I guess numerous people have reported that crime and antisocial behaviour has reduced since the betting shop was operational. I guess, firstly, any evidence that, I guess it's the same question really, is there any evidence that is caused by the betting shop not being open or is it just correlation that could be explained by the factors? And yeah, any sort of, obviously there's reference to all sorts of kind of crime in relation to addiction. I mean, is there any sort of evidence that that is due to, you know, when the betting shop was there, that that was due to the betting shop being there? So I kind of wanted to sort of direct evidence as it were.
• I think maybe Charlotte might be a good person to ask that from the bid and maybe Councillor Fitzroy.
• I'll let Charlotte go first. I think she's been in the area.
• Sorry, I was doing something else that my husband was asking. What was the question again? Sorry, Councillor Newell.
• Sorry, it was specific, go on Eilem.
• Yeah, any evidence that the perceived decline in crime since the closure of the betting shop is linked to that or whether, you know, can you directly source that to the non-existence of the betting shop there? And if so, how?
• It is always, always associated, those kind of establishes are always associated with antisocial behaviour. And the fact that the people on Parade News are saying that they can see a direct correlation, I think we have to believe them. They live there, they work there, they're there all the time. I live on just a bit down the road and I can see it. So yes, I would say there was a direct correlation to it.
• I mean, there's people gathering outside. That's, I mean, just, you know, the licencing, the licencing sector says crime and disorder. I mean, in particular, you know, I don't think that's, gathering outside isn't crime and disorder as such. Anything that, in particular, you know, that particularly links crime and disorder to the patrons of the establishment, you know, the previous establishment.
• I mean, I'd say public urination and defecation is pretty unpleasant to step through. And that is something that's associated everywhere that I've worked where there've been adult gaming centres. That is number one, the big issue. But also people get into fights, they get into arguments, they drink, bottles are smashed. I mean, people have said all of this. I mean, it might not be reported because a lot of crime is not reported, but I think we need to believe what the people here who live and work nearby or above it are saying.
• Okay, I'm going to come to Councillor Fitzroy and then I think there was a question from O'Hara 'cause I'm afraid we can't get around everybody and kind of answer to this 'cause we need to move on to the summation. But if I can, Hannah, I will come to you. But Councillor Fitzroy, did you want to comment specifically to Councillor Rathmell's point?
• Yes, I did on the crime. I think, as Charlotte said, obviously public defecation, also drug taking and potentially drug dealing have been associated with some of the people that have been hanging around at that previous betting shop. I'd already put my original submission, the fact that licensing police did not make a submission does not mean that the local police are not concerned. I have had many conversations with the safer neighbourhood teams who will back up everything that residents have said, albeit it's not the licensing team that would have made a submission to this committee. It is definitely, there has been crime associated with the previous. Thank you. - Thank you, thank you. And Helen, thank you for your message being noted. Councillor Hardy, do you want to come in? And then I think we'll probably look at, if there's no other main questions for the interested parties, we'll look at moving on to item seven under this section.
• Yes, thank you, Chair. Yes, so I had a question then about SCND and other vulnerable residents in the area. I think it was Councillor Fitzroy who made reference to young adults, I believe it was with SCND. So I just wonder if you could say a little bit more about that, Councillor Fitzroy, and particularly how you think they may be affected by this premises being reopened or opened afresh, particularly as a sort of online, as a gaming centre rather than as its betting shop in its previous form.
• Thank you.
• Thank you, yeah. I mean, I think all Lambeth Stone gambling policies identify people with learning difficulties and SCND as people who are particularly vulnerable to gambling related harms. Now the Rathbone, which is a youth charity, but also works with learning disabled adults is less than 10 minutes walk away. You'll note the applicant has not even bothered to contact the Rathbone to find out how they might prevent some of the very vulnerable young people getting harmed by gambling in their premises. So that is my main concern. Also Elm Green, I believe has about 5% pupils who have SCND. Again, some of those might be over 18, so wouldn't be caught by all the age check policies. And again, they're not even mentioned and they're extremely vulnerable to gambling related harms. So yeah, that's kind of all I've got to say on that one. Thank you.
• Now I've moved, I've muted myself for once. So, you know, there we go. Three hours and it's bound to happen once. Isla, you come over to you for your next question, please. And then I'll come over to Hannah. I wondered what you're all doing that before.
• Yeah, oh gosh, it was my question.
• Oh, gosh.
• I just had a brain freeze. Yeah, just come back.
• Okay, Hannah, should we come to you?
• I just wanted to respond to Councillor Rathmael's question. I live directly above, I'm on the first floor, directly above the shop. I, there was a lot of sound bleed from Betfred and we very often heard fights happening inside, heard the manager shouting at people and a lot of the punters, you know, would be right there. So just in terms of the direct correlation, we knew because we could hear that there were fights happening in Betfred.
• Thank you. Okay, and then come back to Councillor Rathmael and then I think I'll move on to item 4B7. Yeah, I'm not sure if who's the best person to answer this again. I guess, or maybe it's more licensing authority, but obviously this is a different, it's very similar, but different to a betting shop. And I was just wondering, I guess, in the experience of the licensing authority, like whether there is a different sort of profile in terms of, you know, the effect on the local area from a betting shop vis-a-vis a sort of a gambling arcade, I think this is called, isn't it? So I'm just wondering, yeah, if there was, you know, how much that would be likely to affect things, but I'm sorry if I've come in too early on, in terms of raising the licensing authority.
• Well, it's probably a little bit later in the day, but I'll allow it on this occasion, given what you've heard. Ola, do you want to quickly respond and then we'll bring in, and then if Mr. Callis and Mr. Wood, I believe is Wood's.
• Yeah, thank you, Chair. I just want to add to that is yes, the operation of a betting shop is different from a bingo and with a betting shop, because customers tend to want to wait for the next sporting event. So they may hang around at the premises, waiting for maybe dogs to happen or horses to happen or something they're going to put it back. So they tend to hang around the premises, come outside, maybe after five, go back into the premises. But with a bingo, they tend to do the activities and maybe have a play on the games. And once that's done, they finish, and then they just tend to go away from the premises rather than wait for any sporting event or anything. So that's the kind of operation. I think maybe the applicant may wish to come in a little bit more on that.
• Okay, but we can take- - And also, sorry, Chair. The chat you've asked Charlotte Ashworth to delete is still on the chat. I don't know if you can delete it, please.
• Oh, is it? Sorry. Yeah, so, okay, sorry. Charlotte has put your kind of comments early in the chat. That could be seen quite leading for the committee. So if you could delete that, please.
• I don't know how to delete it, I've been trying, but I don't know how. So if you can tell me how to do it, I'll do it.
• I've tried to look how to do it as well. Is it whoever set up the meeting has deleting powers?
• That might be, yeah, Democrat disturbance.
• Yes, Jacqueline.
• I'll see if I can.
• Okay, thank you. And Olga, you had a very quick point to come in in there, did you? And then I do need to move the meeting on.
• Yeah, just a really quick point, seeing as we are discussing the sort of general profile of adult gaming centres and similar, is that the one in Streatham High Road is a Mercure Slots, which is absolute chaos at kicking out time. There's like literally parties in the street with alcohol smashed bottles. I think the one's further down in Streatham. I've been on emails with the head of the bid down there. They're not tranquil, quiet premises. And because of the late opening times, they are worse than the betting shops. At least the betting shops, you get some respite after they close. With these slot kind of places in Streatham High Road, where I live, I've seen it. It's just chaos at kicking out time. So I'd sort of dispute the thing that it's a more tranquil type of establishment if we're going to compare sort of in a general sense rather than the individual operator.
• Okay. - Yeah.
• Thank you. Okay, I just thought it was important to make sure that the committee had some questions in interest of parties too. Mr. Callas, Mr. Woods, thank you very much for waiting patiently whilst we went through that section of the agenda. So as per the meeting papers, we're now under 4B7 and I believe Councillor O'Hara had a specific question. Do you just want to quickly just do a quick recap, Councillor O'Hara, apologies for that.
• Yes, no problem, my fault. Yes, so looking at the effect on children, I was just mentioning that it's en route to and from Elm Green School for school children. And I'm wondering how the applicant can explain how a premises that's very brightly lit, that's colourful, that has gaming terminals inside, it can be made unappealing to children or young adults or indeed vulnerable adults.
• Thank you. And so Mr. Woods or Mr. Callas?
• Yes, no, thank you. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to actually speak about the premises that we want to operate as well, because we've listened now for over an hour about evidence and comments made about our premises.
• Yeah, you'll get a right to reply for the previous comments, kind of something that was made as well, so don't worry about that.
• In terms of children under 18s, Councillor O'Hara, the fact is that we don't have any issues with under 18s young people trying to get into these premises. I take on board your point that there'll be a bright light, et cetera, et cetera, but these premises in our experience and Mr. Callas is a member of back to the trade industry, so he's aware of what other operators think and say as well. And I appreciate you might think, well, I am bound to say this, children and young people do not try and get into these sorts of premises. There's nothing in there that is appealing to them. There's a lobby entrance, they can't really see in, they see the signs outside saying what it is, but the simple answer is that we simply do not, and I don't think other operators have problems with children trying to get in. And I appreciate that you might expect me to say that. If there is ever an attempt to get in, which I have to say, it hardly ever happens if at all, then all of the policies and procedures that are in place, including the lobby exit, lobby entrance, sorry, staff actually in the shop, they're not even behind the counter like a bakery or a betting shop, they're on the shop floor. The door opens, somebody walks into the lobby, the members of staff, the member of staff sees them, assesses them and decides whether they can come into those premises and challenges them if necessary. And if I just take, and then I'm done Chair on this point, if you take an extreme example, none of which we've ever experienced, but let's say there are five or six children outside the premises near the door. Then as Mr. Callis has said, the staff lock the door. They put a mag lock, there's a magnetic lock on the door, which generally isn't on, but it's very, they quickly could lock it and they'll go to the door and they will not allow those people access to the premises. So the answer to the question, sorry if it was a bit long winded, we simply don't have these problems with young people. And I know a lot's being said about it, but frankly, it's not correct, we don't, but there are also in place very strict measures to stop that should it ever happen. Thank you.
• Thank you, sorry. And I just thought we'd take Councillor Horro's question as it was kind of lingering. So from before, but Mr. Woods and Mr. Callis, with respect, we haven't, it wasn't an hour listening to previous people, but we've had 40 minutes of which 10 minutes of that was questions from the Councillors, but you absolutely haven't right to reply now from any of the submissions that you've kind of heard over the course of the last kind of 40 minutes. So before I take any other kind of final questions or comment from Councillors, I would say the floor is yours, if you would like to address anything that's been kind of up in the last 40 minutes.
• Okay, I'll try my best in four or five minutes.
• Don't worry, it's okay.
• The fair is, the best way for me to put it is, I think there are two parts to my response to what's being said against the application. The first part that's being said is that the application and the conditions are passive. They don't do enough. And there's a long list of things that have been said by people saying to the three committee members, Mr. Callas's application should fail because he doesn't do enough. It's too passive. Occasionally when the committee probed that, we find out from the MP of all people that when she says it's passive, what the MP wants is money towards local policing. That's probably the second part 'cause the second part is there's a great deal said. And I know this doesn't always go down well 'cause there are a lot of genuine feelings from people who have made these representations that Mr. Callas and I respect and listen to. But there's a lot that isn't relevant to the gambling act 2005. And I get it if I was making an objection to this, that that doesn't sit very well. But that's the fact, and I'm gonna have to rely on an experienced committee with the legal advisor to look at that. But going back to the point one, and I promise not to be too long. Point one is the application should fail because it doesn't do enough. Well, there are two departments within Lambeth who are experienced and qualified to assess applications of this nature, the licensing departments and the police departments. And they will regularly make representations against applications. And in this case, we have a dozen or so residents with strong feelings about these types of premises saying we don't go far enough. And we have your licensing officer who has looked at this and liaised with us in detail saying at 1.7, all of the measures that are in place by way of conditions or operating measures address the concerns of the licensing officer, the licensing officer who is very experienced in assessing applications of this nature. And I won't take up your time by going through all of the measures. And it's sometimes, and I understand why we have time limits and I'm not complaining about that because otherwise proceedings would go on and on. But all of the measures are set out in the conditions in detail in the, even the original local area risk assessment which was criticized, but the format of that is, the format of all local area risk assessments is odd because you say the risk and you say what measure is but you then don't go into lots and lots of details. But if you look at the measures that were put forward originally coupled with the measures that have been put forward after speaking to the licensing authority, this would be one of the most controlled gambling premises, not just in Lambeth, but having done lots of these applications around London generally, I would say in and around the London area generally. So the first point in terms of the passive nature of the application, your licensing officer, your police officer doesn't agree. And if you look at the conditions and the operating standards, there's an awful lot in there that we put down in paper but haven't been able to speak to. That's dealing with the passive, the criticism on the passive point. The other part, and I have to speak up for Mr. Callis here and I say this with respect to residents who I fully understand have feelings about applications of this nature. There is an awful lot and not everything because I don't wanna come across as that sort of lawyer. There is an awful lot that really Mr. Callis cannot be and is not responsible for. I think somebody said, wherever I work, adult gaming centres are associated with all of this. That is wholly unsupported by any evidence whatsoever by your licensing officer and by your police. These kinds of establishments are always associated with antisocial behaviour. It's not in our experience of 30 odd years that Mr. Callis has. Drug dealing, defecating in the alley has been brought up as a reason why you shouldn't grant this application. People hanging around the parade. The Gambling Act, and I hate to try and be too much of a lawyer. The Gambling Act talks about the premises themselves and gambling not being associated with crime and disorder. And nobody has said that Mr. Callis' premises are associated with crime and disorder. The licensing officer has spent a great deal of time on this application, working with us and asking us and challenging us on various things and has reached the conclusion. So I'm not going to list everything that I say is not relevant. I know you have an experienced committee with legal advisors, but there's an awful lot said that Mr. Callis cannot be responsible for and isn't under the Gambling Act. Those matters that he is responsible for are all contained within the conditions, the local area risk assessment, the addendum to the risk assessment and other information. Councilor O'Hara has correctly pointed out that a mistake or two may have been made in those documents. Mr. Callis apologizes for that. He will rectify that and make sure they are all right. So in conclusion, the application is considered as to whether Mr. Callis' premises promote the licensing objectives. And I fully get the feeling from a dozen or so residents on here that they are against this, but Mr. Callis is a hands-on independent operator. What happened at Brett Fred hasn't happened in his premises. He has answered the questions that were put to him. He hasn't just let me answer the questions. And a number of the comments made about these types of premises, we can't quite simply in our experience don't accept. And that's not trying to be defensive and trying to be clever and get out of difficult situations that we are in. We understand that there is a feeling certainly amongst the 18 or so representations against this application. And Mr. Callis has done absolutely everything he can in terms of conditions and policies and local area risk assessments to promote the objectives. Your licensing officer agrees with that. And please be assured, despite the mistakes that have been found in the original, that if this licence is granted, he will liaise with all of those establishments, I think, on page 102. So I'm sorry if that went on a bit, but I'd like to speak on behalf of Mr. Callis.
• No, not at all. I think it was only fair for you to have, as I say, a right to reply, 'cause there was many representations this evening in fairness and balance. It was important to allow you to have time to come back.
• That's very fair, thank you.
• For my committee, our committee, are there any other questions before we go into deliberation at this stage? So we can't take any more questions from the floor, I'm afraid. This is specifically for the committee members and councillors, Councillor Rathmell and O'Hara. Nothing at this stage? No, okay, well, on that basis, shall I, O'Hara, so.
• Sorry, it's a bit last, second.
• No, please do, please do.
• Yes, so I think as we've heard from residents and businesses, we know that that piece of payment is very narrow and we know that this premises sits next to an alleyway. So I'm wondering if the owner has any suggestions for how to tackle the intimidating nature of people standing outside the premises, smoking, drinking, other potentially urinating or defecating as we know has happened in the past in that alleyway, does he have any suggestions for how really to discourage that loitering and intimidating loitering on that very narrow piece of pavement that many of these residents and business users have to navigate?
• So I think we're not wishing to take the risk of alienating the committee just before it retires. But in terms of Mr., so what Mr. Callis will do is put additional cameras up at the front. He will report whatever he sees to the local police and he will liaise with them. The people who go into these types of premises, it's actually a 50/50 split between male and female, completely unlike betting offices. The age of people going into these premises on average, and this is across the industry, is above 30, 40, 50. It's older people who go in there because I think, as Olaf briefly said, people just go in, they play the bingo, they play the machine, whatever they're doing, they leave. These premises themselves don't have people hanging about outside. They're not like, I don't even know, betting offices do. So I'm in some difficulty, Councillor Hiram, 'cause obviously I want to give you an answer that satisfies you. Mr. Callis will do whatever he can to assist in the management and security and safety of customers with that pavement. And he will do that by putting cameras up and by working with the other people next door. And by ensuring that his customers who, there's no alcohol allowed in these premises, there's no drinking on the premises, they don't come out like they do from pubs, making sure that his customers leave quietly and respect the local people. So in terms of managing his premises, he can do everything. In terms of the concerns which have been expressed about outside, he will do what he can as somebody who has premises there. And if the police want to, or local councillors want to give him ideas and he'll work with them, then that's absolutely fine. But it's limited to a certain extent in what he or any other shot if you was applying to a grocery store, it's limited in what he can actually do, but he will do everything he can is the answer to the question, sorry.
• Okay.
• Can I ask a follow up to that, Chair?
• You can, and then unless you don't have it in the Councillor Rathmann, then I'll probably look at taking it to liberation shortly after. But yeah, go ahead, Councillor O'Hara.
• Thank you. Just about the, so are there toilets provided within the facility? And also, can you tell us how long people generally spend inside? You say that they're seating at some of the terminals. So how long are people spending inside? Are they, it seems to me they are likely to need the toilet. Are there drinks provided inside? Is there coffee and tea that they may want to come outside to smoke if they're spending time there and they may want to come outside to drink?
• So, alongside, can I just say one thing I forgot? In terms of the alleyway, I've actually just messaged Mr. Callis 'cause we're not together and asked him if he has the right to put any cameras up in the alleyway. He can put cameras up at the back and he would agree to do that. He will put cameras on the front because he has agreed to do that. If his lease, if the licence is granted, allows him to do anything on the side of the building and he'll need landlord consent. If it does allow, then he will do that as well because he understands the problem. Just to answer the question that you asked, there is tea and coffee available in the premises for customers. There is a toilet available in the premises for customers. I'd rather not speculate on the length of time that people stay in Mr. Callis' premises. I don't, I suspect he's still online somewhere. I don't know, people generally arrive at these places on their own. It's generally individuals who come occasionally. There might be two friends who go together, but it's not somewhere, maybe like a pub where a group go or a big family go. It's a place that individuals generally go and they play the machines, play the bingo, I suppose as long as they want to and as long as he's socially responsible from Mr. Callis' point of view. So I wouldn't say it was five minutes, but I wouldn't say it was a long period of time either, but there is a toilet, there is coffee and tea.
• But, so could you just quick divine to, I mean, a long period of time, an hour, two hours, three hours?
• Sure, I'd be guessing. So if Mr. Callis is on, could he answer? 'Cause I'd be guessing now.
• Yeah, it's, sorry, sorry. It's not an exact science really. So some customers can be in the shop for five, 10 minutes. Some customers can be in the shop for five or six hours. As an average, I'd say around an hour to an hour and a half. But again, it depends on the opening and closing times of the shop as well. So if we're closing at 11 p.m., people might decide not to come in at 9 p.m. 'cause they can't gamble for long enough or it's not a long enough period of time. So it varies. But I'd say as an average around an hour, we wouldn't be far off.
• Thanks for that. Councillor Rathamal.
• Yeah, I was just wondering, would, was there talk of cameras? I noticed one of the recommended conditions on the last page, 140, was for there to be trained security staff outside the door after 6 p.m. Is that something that the applicant would be willing to consider or?
• So we, I'm gonna let Alan answer in a minute. I spoke to Nicole about this in licensing. And Nicole asked exactly the same question. And our response was that we'd like to risk assess whether that was needed.
• Alan, I don't, so that's not a no, but at this stage, we're not saying to be very open. We're not saying a guarantee, yes, unless Alan says, thinks that it's needed. But do you want to say anything else, Alan, to answer to Councillor Rathamal?
• No, I think the answer is correct. We will risk assess this after a period of time. You know, we've got to remember, we will be a new business on a high street, so we won't be particularly busy to begin with. So we'll cut out ongoing risk assessments to see the customer numbers in the shop.
• Just last point, there was a suggestion that there was a concern over whether you, if you felt that SIA was needed at this shop, can you confirm to the committee that you would put SIA on if you felt it was needed? I think there was a suggestion that you might not choose to do so.
• Yeah, if needed, absolutely, we will do, yeah. Yeah, but again, a lot's dependent on the closing times. You know, if we had to close at 8 p.m., we probably wouldn't need an SIA trained guard on the door. But if we open till midnight, possibly we might do, yeah.
• Okay, so I mean, I think, obviously, I know that's kind of the committee's consideration, but just because you just mentioned there about kind of, you know, closing hours, I know, obviously, you know, you'd like 11 at midnight, but is it set in stone or would you take it, you know, if the committee was to come back with a consideration of hours, is that something that you'd be applicable to?
• Absolutely happy to talk about it yet and negotiate.
• Okay. On that basis, then, but it's been, thank you, everybody, for your patience, thoughtful considerations, and, you know, and everyone's, you know, behaved in a respectful manner with both applicant and hearing from the residents. Just say, before we quickly run off, stay on the line for deliberation. This can take any, as I said earlier, from any time from kind of 15 minutes to an hour or so, but I suppose quickly before a runoff, just while it's kind of in my head, Mr. Callas, 'cause it's obviously chairing and trying to get considerations in before we head off. If we were to take an earlier set of hours, you know, what would be the absolute bare minimum of earliest for you? Would eight o'clock, like the residents have mentioned, would that be too early, or was nine o'clock would be considerable, or?
• I would say eight o'clock would be too early, yes. So I think 10 p.m. would be reasonable. In an ideal world, midnight would be what we're looking for.
• Midnight's what you're looking for, but 10 is possible, not even nine o'clock?
• I wouldn't be happy. I wouldn't be happy, and it's something I'd have to discuss with Andrew, I think.
• Okay, maybe, okay. But it's just good to know for our consideration, I think, as we're kind of discussing this.
• I think, Chair, sorry, Mr. Callas is-
• Yes, please.
• There's probably a reason, you know, if you're asking what time would be acceptable and would he sign the lease for, I think the answer, really, and Mr. Callas is trying to be nice and doesn't want to say something you would want to hear, I think the answer is probably around 10 o'clock, yeah.
• All right, thank you, Mr. Woods and Mr. Callas. And on that basis then, I think we're gonna go into the deliberation and we shall see you, see you soon, thank you.
• Hello, this is Jacqueline from Democratic Services. Just to provide you with an update that the committee will be ready to join the meeting in around 10 minutes. Thank you. Hello, this is Jacqueline, just to let you know that members are now rejoining the meeting. (silence)
• Hi everybody, if you're still out there. Apologies for the late hour. But of course these things need good discussion and I will just sit, wait and see. I've got my colleagues, do I have the-
• Yes, you do, Jake, and go ahead.
• Yep, colleagues are here and the applicant is here as well, as well as still with some of the residents. Okay, well, again, thank you, bearing with me. I am, again, I'm quite conscious of a later hour. But the decision from the Licensing Subcommittee, as it stands, members have determined to defer the termination of this application under Regulation 13 of the Gambling Act 2005, proceedings of Licensing Committees and Subcommittees, premises license and provisional statements in England and Wales, Regulations 2007, the subcommittee will determine the application before the end of the period of five working days. On that basis, again, I just want to thank everybody for your time and contributions this evening. And yep, we will be in touch in due course by the 2nd of December at the latest. I believe that's right, Selina. She there?
• Yes, that's right.
• Thank you both very much. Thank you again, everybody and sleep well, good night.
• Good night. [BLANK_AUDIO]