Transcript

• Do you want to introduce themselves?
• Good morning, Councillor Joughton.
• Morning, Councillor Karen McGowan.
• And you'll see a number of other people sitting in the room over the officers that are working with us this morning. Would you like to introduce yourselves, please?
• Morning, it's month upon to the supervisor to the liquidity.
• Good morning, my name's Jane Gough. I'm from Licensing to read the report this morning.
• Morning, I'm Claire Cummings from Democratic Services. I'm just taking the minutes this morning.
• And we have someone working the wonderful technology, including these microphones. So we just need to remember to press our buttons because my hearing's terrible and me coasting's in this room are very good. Right, so we have a fairly straightforward procedure for these hearings and we're pleased to know that at 0.4 of that he says the solicitor to the committee will outline the procedure so you don't have to listen to me reading it down. So Sam, could we have the procedure, please?
• Thank you, Chair. I don't know that I'm going to be much better so I'll do my best. If you had a copy of the papers through, we have got some hard copies extra if you need them and if I lose my way. So the procedure's just right at the back of the pack on page 42. So the licensing officer who's Jane this morning will introduce the report. If there are any questions concerning the report, you can raise them then. So that's just if there's anything missing or factually inaccurate so we can amend it for the record. We haven't got any representatives who are responsible authorities present. So we'll just head over to you just to expand on your representation in the report and to add anything else on top of that, what you said there. There'll be an opportunity for questions from members and officers and for the leave of the chair, the applicant's representative. They also have some questions as well. We'll then head over to the applicant to detail the application, and sorry to detail the application, provide clarification on it and just to respond to any representations made both in the report and already at the hearing today. Again, there'll be an opportunity for questions from members and officers and with the leave of the chair from the interested party as well. You can then be given the opportunity to support the application. We'll take the options as detailed in the report from Jane and we'll then go into a private session. So members can take legal advice and consider the application. So we'll just ask you to wait outside and then if you want to hang around for a bit, we can invite you back in and tell you the decision or we can email that out to you whichever is easiest. The decision of the licensing committee will be given in accordance with the requirements of the licensing at 2003 and regulations made there under. Any time during the hearing members can request legal advice, which we can do in open session as we are now or private where we'll just ask you to pop next or we'll have a discussion and when you come back in we'll report the outcome of that advice to you. And I think we've probably missed the beginning of the procedure that it's public and that the hearing is recorded and it'll be listed on the Sheffield Council's website. I think it's retained for six or seven years that it's held on there but we are being live webcast as we speak. I think that should be everything. Thank you, Chair.
• Thank you, Sam. And the eagle eyed amongst you will notice that I admitted to ask you to introduce yourselves. So please could you introduce yourselves?
• Yeah, my name's Nick Kitchen. I'm just a local resident.
• Morning, my name's Alan Ball. I am from Business Sheffield representing Mr. Ola from I was seen down here. Good morning again. You're both very welcome. So in accordance with the procedure that sounds like we have the report, please.
• You certainly can. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for coming this morning. This hearing is to determine an application for a premises license for Abbasine Diner 39-41, The Wicker. The applicants are Abbasine Diner limited and the licensing service received an application on the 27th of March, 24, a copy of which is at Appendix A with the report if you'd like to see that. So the reasons for a referral today is that there's been an unresolved representation from an interesting party, local resident who's here today, Mr. Kitchen. Throughout the consultation period, there has been agreed conditions with South Yorkshire Police, which are attached to Appendix C if you wanted to read those. And everyone has been invited as per normal procedure. So I'm just going to scoot through the report to the appeals section. So the appeals section states that the licensing Act 2003, Section 181 and Schedule 5 makes provision for appeals to be made by the applicant and those making representations against decisions of the licensing authority to the magistrate's court. Recommendations this morning chair are that members carefully consider representations made and take such steps as the subcommittee consider appropriate for the promotion of the licensing objectives. I have just omitted a piece which I meant to add in. In addition to what's in the report, I have been informed by the Health Protection Service that the Abbasine Diner has now received a food registration application. They've already submitted one because I think that was a possibility that they've not been registered, but we have had confirmation from HPS that that is now the case. That's it, thank you.
• Thank you, Jay. Members got any questions regarding the report at all? Does the applicant have any questions on the reports or the interested parties?
• Yeah, sorry. In terms of the food hygiene thing, from my understanding that they haven't actually submitted that before submitting for the late night application and it was only actually done because I contacted food hygiene and asked them why they didn't have food hygiene certificate.
• Thank you. Would we normally, obviously, we wouldn't license somewhere without food hygiene certificate, would we?
• No, the licensing act's legislation is standalone, so they could operate as a food outlet without a license. It's only if they're providing food beyond 11 o'clock at night, so they could still be operating even if they're closed at 11, so that wouldn't have any implications on the license application.
• And that has now been received, thanks.
• Sorry, but isn't it currently operating till 12 o'clock?
• It's currently operating till 12 o'clock.
• And you said that they couldn't operate after 11 without a license?
• Yeah, you only need a license to serve food between the hours of 11 p.m. and 6 a.m. in the morning. Outside of those hours, it is not licenseable, so.
• So my point is that they're currently operating till 12 o'clock at night.
• Depends if they serve in half food and drink after 11 p.m. then they'd need the license, but if it's not hot, then.
• It's currently operating, serving hot food after midnight.
• You might not be that the applicant was aware that they needed it, yeah, please.
• Thank you. So my understanding is that there's no food served after 11 p.m. but there may be a wrap-up of people that have already been served at them, and it's a sitting diner as well.
• That's starting depending on the outcome of today. That's certainly something we could look into separately, but would be separate to the consideration of this application.
• So Mr. Kitchen, it's over to you to state your concerns to us.
• Yeah, I'll start by saying I've got no objection in terms of the business, not use the business. It's just, I'm concerned that the amount of hours that it wants to operate. I think 11 till far in the morning, seven days a week is excessive for what's a highly residential, about to become more residential area. It's on, it borders Stanley Street and Wiggling, as well as the Wicker itself, which are two of the probably busiest parking areas later at night. I'm concerned about deliveries at that time of night. We already get a lot of taxis and other vehicles that are delivering or collecting food at that sort of time, and I worry about another operator doing it for those types of hours. Wouldn't have an objection to have late night opening, you know, sort of Friday Saturday, but I do think seven days a week is a bit much. Stanley Street is already often double and travel packed throughout the day and even into the early evening, and I'm concerned that Wiggling itself is only a single lane. So I just worry about the amount of traffic that this extra business might break in terms of takeaway services. As I said, not a good little objection generally to the business operating. I think it's quite appropriate for them to do it perhaps at a weekend, but I think during the week, I don't think there's a need or a desire for that type of operation to operate me on midnight. In the application image that they've made, that they said that their business would be different to others. I can tell you I've been taking a look at the menu. It's 95% the same as the other three, four businesses that it says has got a similar license. It's got like, it's almost a replica menu to two or three of the other takeaways that are down there. So I don't believe it's adding a particularly new service. It's actually taken over a business per assist that was probably slightly different to the other offerings there. As I said, the area is already very densely populated in terms of housing. Within 50 yards of the front door, there are at least 400 dwellings. There are about to be another possibly 70 dwellings built on Wickleland behind it on the site of the old coroner's court. And then where the testing labs was on their streets, they're going to be 200 plus dwellings. And I'm just concerned about the amount of extra noise and traffic it'll bring for local residents.
• Thank you. That's helpful. I'll open this up to questions then now. Joe, is there anything you'd like to ask at this stage? Karen, there's anything you'd like to ask.
• Just a couple of things. This premise is open now and I know that you're concerned about the traffic. Is it causing any other problems like noise, antisocial behavior or anything like that? You have anything else from there?
• It's difficult to say, being absolutely honest, that this specific business is causing antisocial behavior. There's certainly an increase in the amount of rubbish that's been dumped in the area. And certainly the back of the premises where the bins are, et cetera, are regularly overflowing. Again, there are other businesses in the area. There is unfortunately too often rubbish left around the wicker generally. I would say that this is only going to add to it, but I wouldn't say it's specifically a reason probably to block it. I would say there's been slightly more noise of recently, but I couldn't again, with all honest, he said this is the direct result of this business.
• My other question is, this seems quite, I don't know if there's more of these in Sheffield, so you might be able to tell me, Jane. You know, having the premises for, I think, when I've read about it, it's about letting, for religion reasons, religious reasons as well as, so there's a space room to pray and have food, so thinking about late night workers, taxi drivers, so from that point of view, I don't know how much more traffic it would, you know, or anti-social behaviour I'm trying to say, 'cause that's, when I think of religious dwellings, I don't think of anti-social behaviours, so I was just trying to say, do we have other premises in Sheffield that operate like this, that just to food and no alcohol? Is that right? Okay. So it's not a question, then it's just a...
• How's it come back to you, Jane?
• It has come back to me. So this is a question, actually, if I can ask Sam first, because we've had an objective in terms of traffic and parking and that sort of thing, I'm just thinking in terms of what we ought to be considering and the licensing objectives. Do we need, in order to consider traffic and parking, do we need to have a concern about public safety effectively to consider that?
• The public safety objective is more in terms of the premises, sounds in terms of health and safety guidance and whether the business is operating in accordance with the health and safety at work, out to new regulations. So while we sort of say with licence in the parking and traffic isn't strictly a consideration as it would be with planning, if there's an increase in vehicles that are causing noise nuisance, then we'd look at the public nuisance objective, but I don't think public safety really would be very dangerous.
• So it's right, it's the public nuisance concern with additional traffic and parking and that's your objection.
• Yeah, it's one of them, but also it's a strange area because people often don't think of it as a residential area and people make tend specifically into stainless steel at speed, late at night, that you wouldn't expect them normally to be driving at. It's supposed to be an area that's sort of 20 to 30 miles per hour speed restriction. I think Stanley's 20. Your seat card's bolted on even sort of at lunchtime at 40, 50 miles an hour.
• Yes, I'm gonna confess it's my impression of the area is that it's got a late night business, you know, looking at the frontages on the wicker itself. That is certainly my impression of it, but yes, I'm obviously aware that behind that lots of those lots of residents is going in. There's residential areas that you don't realise are there because on wicker lane, there's about a dozen premises, opposite it where there's a on Stanley Street itself. There's a building that's up for sale at the moment, that's got four commercial units underneath it and there it's six residences above it. And that's literally within 10 feet from it. If you go the other day, be out to Dhaka, like I said, there's North Bank. That's got 200 premises in it. You've got I quarter, 125. You've got the exchange buildings, the city walk where I live, that's 50 plus premises and also what used to be the Riverside Court Hotel, which is about 40 or 50 dwellings. On top of that, there are about to be another 200 plus building behind wicker lane.
• I mean, it's not me, somebody if I'm going out of line here, but in cases out, it's not exactly the same. In cases where we have in more sort of the drinking areas at the city centre, there is more latitude shown to them because in many cases, they were there before the residential areas were there. And when somebody builds a lot of the homes next to kind of the noisy nighttime economy areas, then they know what they're doing. Whereas the residential areas, we're a lot stricter with terms of late night noise. It's another case of that, isn't it? It's another case of this is a late night economy area that's not a drinking area, that developers have chosen to build homes nearby too.
• I would argue it's not been, certainly it's not been a drinking area for probably 30 years. I've lived there 19 and 1/2 years. There's only ever been one pub that recently shut on the wicker, which was the, God, I can't remember what it was called.
• Yeah, yeah, the big cut. There's always been takeaways there, but there has been a broader range of takeaways. I think the trouble now is that it's very much narrowing into a one size fits all. It's lots and lots of the same type of menu offering made across the board. My concerns specifically, I suppose, with the positioning of this particular takeaway, it's not the closest to my house. My time probably further away than it does, is that that particular street is double packed night and day. It's unsafe to walk down now, and I've prepared, I've reported to traffic services previously about the number of illegal packing that goes on there. If you walk down there today, at midday, you'll be lucky if you saw a yellow lamb, because double yellow lamb, because of the cars packed all over it, and on the pavement. And there is an excessive amount of noise. I think, if I'm honest, I'm not sure what the religious aspects have been brought up for, because I don't believe that that's particularly pertinent to its application. I don't, you know, I can't see from the outside. I've been in it once to pick up a menu. I've not seen any specific area that it said is available to go praying. Although, you know, I just can't see that. Like I said, I've had no objection to there being another takeaway that it's just one that's open 18 hours a day. It seems a little bit excessive seven days a week. It's the one that we can find no objection with that, you know, I understand that. But it's not an area that is full of people in terms of the late night economy. There's the Sadaka Club, the Occasionally Health Functions, et cetera. Most of the other stuff are kind of, I don't know whether they're illegal or not, but sort of raves that are down in the sort of hatches at the other end of it. There isn't any pubs on the liquor anymore, which is, you know, I'm a personal light select, I think. So it's a shame for me that there isn't. But worries me more is kind of like UberEads type drivers, delivery drivers, just bombing about in the area, not really paying attention. Thank you, I think you've covered most of the things up. It's just about the current problems you've got with parking. Is this predominantly people visiting the premises on the week? And does it vary at different times of the day? You're saying it'd be busy now, but obviously one of the issues with this is it's gonna be open at four o'clock till four o'clock in the morning. So, you know, at that sort of time, are you still getting problems? It's pretty much night and day. It starts, you know, at least, I think there's seven or eight addresses on the wicker and the surrounding area. So it starts from people who just pack up to get their air cut and one up, yeah. There's two or three sort of convenient stores at stores in the area. And then this just extends that whole problem out till potentially four o'clock in the morning. If you go around, I think is it called Islam's on the other side of the wicker? There are cars parked down that street till two in the morning and there's often your air run's been sounded because people can't get in to pick the takeaway of food up and then there's a car coming the other way and everybody's double-banked in terms of parking, so it causes more chaos. And then all that starts is a home fest, basically, from car runs.
• And it's a much in the way of disturbance from people using the premises. I know the traffic's causing a problem and can't.
• Can't hold on to any time of the day. Pretty bad, but other people that are using these premises cause any issues.
• I would say it varies. Generally speaking, most people are relatively well behaved, you know, again, being honest about it. I, you know, we occasionally get some early morning noise when sort of people have been out and probably had too much to drink, grabbed a kebab on the way home and a walking back towards other cities and to pick up a taxi. It does also mean that often taxis wear in that area so people coming from where, whichever direction, they're coming from will walk towards that area to get a little late night food and a taxi. Probably where, Saturday weekend, not as bad as mid-week. I mean, I would be surprised as a business if there is the amount of business for them. Mid-week to those sorts of hours. And it's just the, the length of term. Like I said, seven days a week, but I think we'll add to it. And it is a very densely populated area. Most of the traffic that goes out under the wicker act just so if you was going from the city center or ladies, Big Jerry, or outwards. It's only taxis and buses that can go that way.
• Thank you, that's really helpful. Sammy, is there anything you'd like to ask?
• That's pretty helpful, thank you.
• Does the applicant have any questions? It'll be your opportunity to address the concerns and stay in your case. But do you have any specific questions for Mr. Kitchen?
• No sir, thank you, Chair.
• Then it's over to you to detail your application to us and address the concerns which have been expressed.
• Thank you, Chair. As I'm, I'm involved from Business Shepherd representing the applicant, Mr, Mr, and Ron. In terms of the application, obviously licensing only covers from the 11 o'clock till 4 a.m. So a lot of the areas that have been covered at pre 11 p.m. The applicant has agreed completely to the request of the police in terms of conditions on CCTV and the reporting of crime. So CCTV is installed or will be completely installed within the premises and obviously all of those conditions that have been requested will be complied with. I think the other point that's worth noting is that there is no alcohol sold on the premises. This is a particularly religious premise in terms of the owners, but also a lot of the clientele as well. Just to clarify on the prayer area in the top right-hand area of the seating area, there's about two square metres. On the application, I did put that to scale. Too licensing, but I think it's about two square metres on a raised platform with prayer marks. So that is used as a prayer area for people who come into the premises to partaking food. There are three of the restaurants on the wicker that are open until those hours, namely Kyber, Big Dobby and Imran's. Again, licensing will be able to clarify and confirm that that's the case. And so in terms of the question that was raised around the seven days a week, the commerciality reasons for a business to be able to kind of retain its staff and employment and be commercially viable and the supply and demand for customers, that's why the requirement is for the seven days. There are kind of people, residents that do partake in kind of late night refreshments, particularly those that work late into the late night economy or working shift work, and also kind of people that live in the area that use the facility as well. So it's generally the commercialisation, which is why we're asking for seven days in order for it to be viable, for the business to be viable. Bear in mind that the premise that was previously there, the Pearl, which I do, I know was from Mr. Kitchen, it was a slightly different menu, that business was no longer viable and that kind of premises remain shut for a while. So obviously we'd like to see a vibrant high street, so I think the fact that the premises has come in to open up again I think is a benefit to the community. I think in terms of the parking, I do question whether or not this one particular premise is going to increase parking in the area. I do think that its enforcement to kind of ensure that particularly during the day, but again, I'll go back to, we're talking about after hours, so specifically we're talking around public nuisance from 11 till four, and I think in that regard, I don't really see that there's likely to be a significant amount of increased traffic in the area that's going to cause additional nuisance. In that, but that's obviously difficult to send to monitor, but again, if we go back to the point that the premises are very much going to ensure that the CCUV is monitored, any crime or social behaviour is monitored and reported. I have also spoken to Mr. O'Larr and he is full agreement that if we do start to see people parking outside the premises and particularly on the corner of Stanley Street, then we will be having conversations with clients to kind of move their cars and parking in terms of legal spaces that are available on both Stanley Street and on the wicker. And I think that will be all there. I would have to say, Mr. Chair, thank you. I'll open this up to questions then now. Karen, would you like starters off? I just wondered about a concern about deliveries and whether there's any reassurance that there'll be no deliveries between the 11 and 4 additional slots, or is that you can't guarantee about? I think that would be difficult to guarantee because the business will rely on deliveries as well, so there are certainly people visiting the premises during the day, but the premises is open for orders and it does take deliveries. So there is likely to be. I've just got back to the previous point, made that we would try and ensure that delivery drivers kind of park legally and certainly from a noise pollution perspective that we'd be trying to kind of minimize, not increase that. Oh, is there anything you wish to ask? Obviously, the licence application has been advertised in the normal way. Has there been any other consultation with local residents? I would, the business, you know, engage with local people about the way you're running any issues. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, and again, I've spoken at length with Mr. Ola around the kind of working with the local community. There's been no other objection that we're aware of on the week or off from other residents in relation to specifically opening, and we would be open to have meetings and conversations with residents that are concerned. I think if Mr. Kitchen specifically has any issues that arise from this application, if it's successful, then we would be more than happy to engage, to try and ensure that we minimize those as we would across the whole community. Okay, he's currently operating up to 11 o'clock, or questionably midnight. But how long has it been open? And have there been any issues so far? There's been no issues of reporting so far. I work quite closely with the community police in the area and in the city centre, and we've had no particular issues around that premises of ASB. So in terms of existing kind of client base, again, because I think of the way that the business is set up and trying to kind of support the community, and it has that kind of prayer area, it kind of, the clientele that it tends to bring in, it's from the local community, Muslim community, and therefore it tends not to be as diverse as maybe some of the other shops that kind of burger, it's a traditional burger or kind of shops that would maybe kind of bring in. Other people that may be coming from kind of pubs all late late drinking as Mr. Kitchener has pointed out. So no, we've not had anything to date of any concern. I think just finally from me, in terms of sort of people sort of eating in or collecting stuff and delivery drivers coming and taking stuff. What sort of businesses is deliveries? Now, that's a good point. It's a high proportion of sitting, and I think that, again, that was where the premises were set up to be, that it was there as part of that community hub, so that people can go and visit and sit down and eat. So the proportional split moment is very much in favour of people sitting there and eating. Those are both to take away.
• Thank you.
• Sam, is there anything you'd like to ask the applicant?
• Mr. Kitchener, is there anything you'd like to ask the applicant?
• Yeah, I have to say I don't recognise some of the stems that have been met in terms of links to the local community and it's talked specifically about Muslims, when I've been by Muslim people of faith. I don't really see that particularly as a business. I do see late night people have been out for a drink, making noise, going into that type of diner. I mean, it's a matter of taste, but it's a very, very extremely well-brite building. I would also say that in terms of some of the things that have been said about fitting in with the local community, it sticks out like a bleacher beacon in terms of its lighting. That's taste and it's people's choice. Some people might want to do that to advertise the business, but it's significantly brighter than I would have said any other other premises on the spot. Like I said, I don't see the same, so to me there are just lots of people who go for a late night take away that go there after having drinks, et cetera. There is existing problems back, and I think specifically the problem is the positioning of this business because of its standards for the wicker and wicker lane, because they're all very narrow, heavily used roads. But that's all I'm going to say. Unless you wish, I mean, there's more of a statement than the question, but we tend to let these things pass up. He's actually then backed back to the applicant to sum up. Is there anything else you would like to tell us?
• No, Mr. Chair, I think we do acknowledge and take on board Mr. Kitchen's points amazed. We are prepared and we'll be continued to prepare to work with the community to make sure that we don't cause nuisance. Compliance of the police requests for safety and security around CCTV will be completely complied with, and I think we just want to be a commercial business that's viable offering a service to the community, and we'll work with the community.
• Thank you.
• Could we have the options then, please, Jane?
• You certainly can, okay. The options available to the committee today are to grant the premises license in terms requested, to grant the premises license with conditions, or to reject the whole or part of the application.
• Thank you, Jane. Could I now ask you to leave with the licensing officer while we take legal advice and come to a decision, and as soon as we've made that decision, we invite you back in and tell you what it is.
• Thank you very much both for your time and your representations this morning. The decision of the licensing subcommittee is to grant the license as applied for. That's not to say we don't recognise that you've got very real problems there. One of the things that we're going to do from this meeting is ask parking services to come and see what on earth you can do to help alleviate that, but we can't attribute those problems or the extent of those problems to this business. And of course, the other thing with licensing is we're evidence-based. The business isn't open till 4 o'clock in the morning at the moment, so there's no evidence that it is causing any sort of nuisance to people. However, if, when it does open to those hours, it does start to cause nuisance that can be directly attributed to that business, then you can come back to the licensing committee and we can have another look at the license. I hope that won't be necessary, and I hope that the communication between the business and residents makes up, and he doesn't add, and I say, the real problems you've got are not necessarily the responsibility of licensing, but somebody needs to do something, and as a start, we will request parking services to go down there. And even if you just start issuing a few tickies, words gets round and it sometimes has a detrimental effect, but we'll see. But the decision today is to grant, which I believe is subject to appeal, some will detail your rights of appeal.
• I'll give it a go. Following the hearing, you'll receive a notice from the licensing officer detailing the evidence that members considered how they came to the decision. So should you wish to appeal that decision, it's within 21 days to the Sheffield Magistrates call. Basically, what they'll do is sit exactly as members have done today. Look at all the evidence before them at that time and come to a decision as to whether members' decision was correct in light of that, but as the chair said, hopefully, you know, you're able to work together and that the business doesn't cause any additional problems. And the committee are very persuasive in getting other services to act on concerns. So like the chair said, it will be referred to parking services. Hopefully, action can pick up from that perspective and things get a little bit better for you. I appreciate both of you coming today. Thank you. (mouse clicking) [BLANK_AUDIO]