Transcript

Hi, good evening. We're going to make a start. Good evening. Welcome to the overview and scrutiny committee. Please be advised, this meeting will be recorded and posted on the council's YouTube channel. Can all those speaking ensure you switch off your microphones before addressing the meeting and remember to switch it off when you are finished speaking? Please be aware that we are still in a pre-election period and I will encourage everyone to stick to the topic at hand and to avoid straining to any political discussion. Item number one, apologies for absence. I've received apologies from our chair councillor, Lauren Dingsdale, councillor Dominic Mbang. Are there any other apologies? No other apologies. Thank you. Item number two, urgent business. There are no urgent business tonight. Item number three, declaration of interest. Does any member have any personal or financial interest to declare on any item on the agenda? I see none. I see none. Item number four, minutes of the previous meeting. So, we've got the minutes of the meeting held on the 30th of October 2024. Our members happy to agree the minutes of the last meeting. Thank you. The main item on the agenda on the agenda tonight. Item number five, we'll have the carbon neutral plan, the year three update. We're asked to consider the report on the carbon neutral plan and to make recommendations to the executive if necessary. The report will be presented by Councillor Avila Kaur, Deputy Leader and Cabinet Member for Climate Action, Sustainability and Transport, Piper Haak, the Director of Regen, George Brown, Principal Sustainability Officer. May I invite officers to present the report and then we will bring members in for questions. Set out the main updates. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. So, the purpose of this report is to share with you the progress in our delivery of the carbon neutral plan and reduction in both borough and operational emissions. And this can be exemplified by, in the appendix, on page 38, you will see the overall reduction since the baseline of 29-20. So, in terms of operational emissions, whilst there's been 2.2% reduction in the last financial year, in fact, there's been a total of 30% reduction since 29-20. And then the borough emissions have reduced by 2% this year and we have the 10th lowest per capita emissions in London. The report also sets out some examples of success and also commitment. And so, my colleagues here today behind me, so, Ryan, Kate and Richard, as well as, obviously, Debbie, are here in case you've got any questions in relation to the work that is being done by some of the biggest emitters in terms of waste, housing and transport. But there are successes, so, if we were to look at the work that I do in terms of the asset portfolio, we've secured overall 6.9 million of public sector decarbonisation funding, which will deliver over 1,000 tonnes of CO2 savings. So, we are always looking for external funding opportunities in order to support the Council's CMP ambition, as well as, obviously, through the Greenwich Builds Programme, continuing to build net zero homes where we're directly delivering ourselves. And I think what I'm going to do is pass over to George so that he can just explain to you the process that we've gone through and that this is an annual review so that you understand the data, how we do it, and why we are certain, if you like, of the calculations that we've made. But also to note that the reductions, it's not an even reduction. So, as I explained, we've got 30% overall in relation to operational emissions, but 2.2% in the last 12 months. And that's because it isn't a steady reduction, because there'll be different initiatives that make a bigger impact, depending on which ones we're pursuing or continuing to pursue. So, that's why you won't see that even reduction. Thank you, George. So, thanks for having us. So, just to sort of follow on what Pip has said, the Carbon Neutral Plan is in its second action plan. This was adopted earlier this year, in February. And that was basically a big amount of work that all was in consultation with all the other departments. And we developed that action plan. It was adopted. This is the update against that adopted action plan. So, in the Appendix B, there's a progress to date column where we have completed ongoing actions, et cetera. And what this is going to do is that it's going to take us up to 2025. So, the action plan is structured, basically, into interim actions up to 2025. They're short-term actions that are meant to mobilize these wider actions, which we're calling areas of action up to 2030. And this is basically how we've structured our areas of action. And it's basically to mobilize in the short-term, whilst also taking that longer-term strategic view. So, once we've completed up those 2025 actions, we'll be undertaking another review of the Carbon Neutral Plan, and then setting out a final action plan to take us up to 2030. And at this point, I'll probably just ask you to welcome any questions on the action plan and its updates. Thank you, George. Thank you, Paper and Avril. Have members got any questions? Okay. I've got a question on the action plan. It wasn't exactly what I intended to see. What I was expecting to see was an action plan that sets out the, you know, year on year. So, I know this is to 2025, but what we expect to be for 2025 and some projection for 2030. That's what I was expecting, you know, setting out the annual plan. But I'm not sure the reason why it's been presented like this. I'm sure you've got valid reason. Just want to understand a little bit better. So, last year, we took the action plan in its current state to scrutiny, and we recommended that we'd have these interim actions to 2025. But they are categorized under those areas of action to 2030. So, we are taking that longer-term strategic view as well. These are also then sort of categorized into larger pieces of action in terms of the climate themes. So, we do have an idea and understanding, because we've done the forecasting up to 2030, what the high areas of action are required to meet to 2030. But the smaller 2025 actions are things that can be delivered in the short term now to mobilize action. So, we can't really commit to things such as doing another round of public sector decarbonization scheme in 2028, when we absolutely have no idea what the criteria might be, because it has changed recently. And if there is any sort of level funding, also recently has been required match funding. So, again, it's that sort of lack of clarity in the longer term in that second half of the decade, where we can't actually commit to those sort of, nail down those sort of actions. Hence, why we've committed up to 2025, with that subsequent review to take place. Thank you, Chair, and thank you for the detailed report. It's obviously bedtime reading on a number of evenings, so we'll keep it by the bedside. But in real terms, one, how do we compare with other local authorities in terms of our ambition? What are the resource implications in terms of funding our ambition in a climate of where the Council is obviously looking to reduce its budgets? And would you agree with me that there's a bit of a conflict, really, between what we're doing, for instance, and, well, I totally support what the Mayor has done with regard to Oulis and other projects. The manner in which the announcements about the Silvertown Tunnel, the charges, which are really quite nominal, the lack of additional buses, no bus lane, as I understand it, lorries are going to go through there, and no charges for lorries during the night, which, as I understand it, is a major number of lorries come through London overnight anywhere. So, does that challenge some of the issues you've identified in the report, and how can we resolve them in the longer term? I'll start. I do think that there are some areas that, you know, perhaps were not in sync. And certainly we made very strong representation to the borough. Unfortunately, I had promised to make that available to members, but because of a pre-election period, I haven't been able to, but I think that it's going to be published anyway. The decision that was published, I think, yesterday or the day before, was not alongside what we would have liked to have seen at all. But, yeah, it is a challenge, and we are yet to see the impact of that at some point. There are other challenges we have, and that is the economic situation we find ourselves, and financial situation. Our ambition to hit the 2030 is challenged by serious logistics, you know, in terms of, if you like, even looking at our electrification of our fleet and getting birch mare ready. So, at the moment, we've had a feasibility study. That should be reporting to us next month. No, or January, yeah? And with any feasibility study, you know, you've got to then find the financial resources to put in place. In the meantime, what do we do when we're having some vehicles that are coming out of their sell-by dates? So, there are challenges. I think there are also challenges in terms of, you know, on the one hand, we are really working hard, the team is working hard in housing to reduce the cost of temporary accommodation, and so we've been buying off-street properties, and so that's also going to create its own challenge because those off-street properties at some point will need decarbonisation or, you know, some work, and again, that's a resource pressure. So, I will let George give you some of the nitty-gritties, but yes, we have many challenges, and I think we are going to have to be realistic about, you know, our ability to hit the targets. 2030. So, in terms of where we compare to against other local authorities, the reason why we included the per capita graph is because, obviously, not all local authorities have the same population or even population density and different type of built environment. So, it's a good measure to sort of, kind of like, provide an apples-for-apples comparison, essentially, against the other local authorities. We place in the top 10th, we're number 10 out of the 33, including the City of London, and on top of that, I would say the top 7 to 10 are very marginally similar. There's barely any difference between those three councils. So, I think we're one of the better performers in terms of regarding per capita emissions, and that's basically how best we can compare ourselves with other local authorities. Strategically, we've committed to a second action plan. Most other local authorities have declared a climate emergency. Most of them have put forward some sort of action plan, but as far as I'm aware, I'm not too sure if any other local authority has undertaken a review and then published a subsequent action plan, taking those lessons learned from their initial first strategic step, as it were. So, in terms of where we are strategically and how we envision where we need to get, I think we're actually one of the better performers across London boroughs. In terms of resource implications, it's absolutely just the state of the case that we need more money to invest into decarbonisation projects, and we have to be quite astute with what limited resources that we have. Invest to save projects will obviously free up budget at a later time to reinvest in other decarbonisation projects, but it's a state of the circumstance, I guess, that we do have limited resources to be able to drive forward all the projects in the action plan. Last year, we did have a little asterisk at the point of the action plan saying all of these initiatives are subject to available funding, and that still remains the case. In terms of Silvertown, I'll leave that to Ryan to discuss. Sorry, just to say to members as well, for those that weren't here at the start, we've invited Debbie as well to the meeting because this is one of our core priorities, and I know that Debbie knows that, but just in case there's any question directly to Debbie, so just wanted to say that in case because I'm sure others are wondering if Debbie's here. So over to you, Ryan. I think Councillor Lelecoe answered everything, so I probably don't need to say much more. Although there is a development consent order and there is a monitoring strategy that TfL, Riverlinks and RBG have signed up to in terms of post-implementation of the scheme. It monitors air quality, traffic volumes, public transport, river crossings, road capacity, queue lengths, everything you can think of. It monitors, and there are also triggers that will initiate the mayor to potentially have to make a decision about the output of the scheme. I was going to say that we have fed into the consultation. Speaking with TfL this week, there's further information that will come out next week about some tweaks to some of the price points. We put our case across, but because of pre-election period, can't really go into that today. But there are also public transport mitigation and routing that they've committed to review alongside the tunnel opening with ourselves. And there is a three-year monitoring plan in place already with the option to potentially extend it to five years, a part of the Silvertown Tunnel group, and it will be for the group to decide whether that monitoring continues. So it is very much about what's this space, same as it is George was speaking for transport and the carbon neutral plan in terms of are we meeting our targets. We've also committed to review the transport strategy and all of the associated action plans next year. And it's unfair for George to have to take the brunt of that in terms of he's enabling all of this, and we're feeding all into it. So I think after next year, the review of the output of all of our action plans and whether we're hitting our targets will then impede how he's getting on with his plan. I've digressed a bit, but I think it's difficult to say the DCO was written up quite a while ago. It has to be adhered to. But as we move forward, we'll continue to work with TFL to monitor the impacts post-opening of the tunnel. Thank you, Ryan. John? I just asked two supplementaries about my chair. What is DCO? Development Consent Order. Oh, great. Thanks for that. In terms of the proposals or the plan that we've got before us this evening, I get the impression that the plans aren't actually funded up to 2030. So what are the financial resources required to meet our objectives in relation to meeting the targets in 2030? There seems to be very little information about that. And the other issue is we obviously have as yet not measured the implications of the Silver Town Tunnel. So is that going to be an added factor? So in addition to that, what are our mitigation plans? What's the mitigation plan for us to ensure that we meet the plans that we have in this report? The carbon action plan is not funded fully till 2030. We get funding as and when the various funding pots make themselves available and we try to utilize them to the best that we can in the various areas that we are operating in. And so I think it stems to the response that was given earlier that this is a fast changing environment and so we don't know we can't actually start costing what we don't know will be available. But where we can, we are. In terms of the Silver Town Tunnel, I think we've got all the base measurements we're going to keep monitoring as Ryan says. But there's also an impetus on us as a local authority to make sure that we are doing the best we can to mitigate against pollution particularly in that area. and I think I would argue that we are trying to do that through some of the transport strategy actions. Thank you very much. I'm going to invite Debbie, Chief Exec Richard Parkin who's responsible for repairs and investment and Kate Wilson Environmental and Leisure. So do members we can go straight into the questions I don't think you need a presentation for each area. so I will open for further questions. Yes, Richard, please. Ryan, please. And Richard. Chair, is this the end of questions for George Brown? Did you have a question? Yes. No, I think they're remaining in the room so if there's a question that comes up for transport then they'll... Okay, please. Thank you very much for the report. I thought it was brilliant and really good. Particularly also pleased to see stuff around like the local area energy planning coming in. I think that's really exciting. I was at a conference about that a few years ago and I was like we need to be doing this. But it's really good. Just in terms of taking everything we've heard about funding, timelines obviously outside global events we have no kind of control over. In my mind I think the idea that anyone's going to be carbon neutral by 2030 is almost wishful thinking. I'm not sure anyone believes anything. I believe that can happen in any organisation. Do you think it would be a case of actually when we get I know you said there's going to be the full reviews of the carbon neutral plan is going to be published in winter 2026. It's kind of the next full review. Do you think at that kind of stage of 2026 we might be in more of a position where we're like actually what we can do by 2030 is like X, Y, Z or what we can do by 2035 might be like A, B, C or that have more of a because I think my sort of kind of fear around the whole 2030 target is we sort of get there and we turn around and we sort of say oh we didn't we didn't make it. But I think quite a lot of organisations might be in that position. I'm just interested in having that from George because I think it's a political decision to a certain extent. there are going to be challenges and I do think that next year the senior leadership team which is the combined that involves all the departments are going to have to sit down and make an informed decision. So at this stage it's premature for me for any of us to answer that but I think certainly coming back next year we will have some clearer view on whether it's achievable you know or what the position is but you know I agree with you the possibilities of achieving those targets are you know challenging at best. Just to add it's encouraging to see the shift in national policy about grid decarbonisation being brought forward to 2030 it remains to be seen if that's going to happen or not but for once it's now aligned with our 2030 net zero target so whilst it is still premature the policy landscape as it were is now somewhat turned a bit more favourably to our own targets. No I just yeah I totally agree and I sort of I think that 2030 is almost a good like a good motivator like I think a lot of what is in here is really good and it's all pushing to us towards that. Councillor Hartley. Thank you and apologies for lateness chair yes likewise thank you for the report I mean when we all set the 2030 target we knew the facts and you knew how challenging it would be there's nothing wrong with a hairy audacious goal to shoot for and what I was struck in this report by the current trajectories on operational forecasts of the council's own emissions including and excluding council homes if you take the excluding council homes trajectory we're on track to you know cut operational emissions by a third in a decade which is pretty good and I think there's a risk of beating ourselves up a bit here that's a that would be a very good outcome in and of itself including council owned homes is obviously a much less flattering picture and so I suppose you know who is making the decision about the trade-off of where to concentrate the limited resources that we have so for example you could we could it's a you know without getting buried in the detail the council could do a hell of a lot more and reduce the operational emissions outside of the housing stock by a you know get a marginal gain there or you could you know make a bigger contribution to the overall mission by expending that time and effort and resource on the housing stock and it feels to me that the housing stock needs to be the priority but my question is a process one who's making that decision who's got the bird's eye view out of it I would say I think it's a corporate decision because some of it depends on when funding is made available so for example when we had the LADS 3 funding we were able to focus on the private sector because funding was available but even for the small rewards we got it did take an enormous amount of time and of officers to get that across the line I mean Greenwich did really well there but it did take up more time than you know you would hope so as and when these funding streams are becoming available and I think if I'm not mistaken there is a funding stream that might be able to be bid for that will support housing in terms of the properties that are being procured so where that hadn't existed before that will be coming up so again a lot of these decisions are dependent on that because we haven't got budgets that are sitting and another area I mean we are looking at using our carbon offset funds from planning to see how we can also utilise that but you know this has been happening from the senior leadership team discussions are formulated there so I think it's working well because of course they are sort of you you're taking from one pot sometimes to another so thanks a question for George if I may chair the trajectories do we have trajectories for other local authorities their own equivalence to this work it would be helpful to I know there's the per capita comparison but for individual trajectories like these really useful charts do you or do you have any sense of how we are doing versus other local authorities so I did do a quick review before coming to the meeting today about other climate strategies because I did think something was going to be asked around this I can't see as far as I'm aware any other local authorities that are doing emissions forecasting to their target dates so I think we're quite unique in terms of that regards we are measuring it against a scenario that our consultants developed back in 2019 so we've got our own sort of bespoke modelling which we do that performance management against I'd imagine a lot of other local authorities have also sought out consultants to do similar exercises but as far as I can see from public facing documents none of them have decided to publish what those scenarios look like or those emissions pathways so we are as far as I'm aware the only ones that are doing that and I do think it's quite important because it illustrates quite well how far we are off the target but also fundamentally how well we've actually been doing against the baseline as well thanks and final one is on the timeliness of data so on the operational forecasts we've got good recent previous municipal year financial year data but there's this lag on the borough data which is I know that's not outside of our control but we've only got 2022 figures to go on so the figure that screamed out of me as Ryan was transport in 2022 was a 4% increase and I'm thinking residents are putting up with a lot on transport higher charges since then higher charges low traffic neighbourhoods a lot of disruption and a lot of cost and my worry is because the date is two years old we're only going to find out that actually it's not been worth that cost for residents and businesses two years too late so my question is how can we fill that gap how can we get good data on the transport interventions that we're making to measure the carbon impact much more quickly than two years after the event so the 4% increase just to give a bit of context all local authorities across London did increase and I think the range was about 3% to 8% so we are comparatively the lower end of that increase which is encouraging to see however the point noted about that data lag is important the only way I could kind of see that we could do that is sort of establish some monitoring controls and get some proxy data and then sort of try to forecast that and what it might look like extrapolated across the borough that would be quite an inaccurate science to say the least and there is a reason why we do fall back on that 18 month data lag purely because we know that those figures do firm up in terms of actually sort of taking that proxy data it will be about vehicle type doing X amount of mileage across certain roads so it will require an investment into monitoring equipment essentially which I think probably Ryan will be a bit more au fait in terms of that sort of technology and stuff thank you I think next year like I said we're doing the action I wouldn't like to commit to bringing any more data forward we are bringing the road safety review forward because obviously casualty data changes annually and it really is important for us to put it into our local implementation plan bid but I think just getting some smart ways of trying to forecast what scheme delivery outputs could be would be the way forward but again all of these things cost lots of money to do monitoring on schemes is very expensive so if we can find a smart way of doing that and some data that we can access a little bit easier potentially from TFL or something like that but going forward is something I'd like to roll out as part of all of the scheme and in the early feasibility you're also not always going to be comparing apples with apples because the data albeit lagging data is verified data you know so we know that when we're using that data we can put our names to it if we're using other forms it sometimes creates problems an example is our which is the other one that you've been working on where they hadn't got all the data from the local authority they made lots of assumptions and so our scorecard did not reflect as well so sometimes you just need to be comparing like with like yeah point taken I don't doubt it's difficult it's assumptions that I'm worried about really because of the change and the assumptions the council is implicitly making that this stuff will work and perhaps thank you for the answer it's helpful and encouraging could I just suggest that as a recommendation perhaps from the panel we investigate that we ask that officers investigate even if it's inferior data proxy data as you said but more timely data to make sure that transport interventions are delivering carbon reduction thank you councillor Hartley absolutely and I just want clarity from councillor did you when he said the platform we're using are you referring to what's in terms of where the data the lagging data sits are you referring to the UK PN platform just wanted clarity because I think okay yeah you don't know the name of do do okay all right thank you for clarity on that is there any other question for George before I so councillor if he could remain in your place and then we'll take questions on transport whilst Ryan is sitting there and then we'll go on to housing so we'll do transport any other question okay okay please go ahead I'll ask all at once in safe and coming back so my questions were he was talking about in reporting a ban on acquisition only tariffs for gas and electrics I was wondering how that impacts our carbon neutral pan the other interesting thing was it talks about a green skill gap and is Greenwich actively looking to recruit more green skill apprentices and do we have enough green infrastructure to support apprentices I know transport have trained all their staff up with electric vehicles but I was just wondering if we'd already started that process with green apprentices or if that's anything in the future the other one in the report was talking about lack of funding but Pippa did say at the beginning I believe you've got 6.9 million pounds worth of funding external funding so congratulations on that that's amazing well done but I presume that will dry up so how long will that last and the other figures in here that I thought were really interesting were the reduction in green waste and landfill well I know most of our waste goes to the centre in Lewisham Millwall there and they generate electricity do we get any of that electricity or have we looked okay so is there any way we can get any of it because I do believe they've got a surplus but I might be wrong well you know when that contract and that contract is up as I is soon up for renewal but we got a really good deal when we had the contract renewed at the last time so we'll be looking as we're obviously renegotiating but that deal saved us millions so in terms of value for money we did get that in terms of green skills I'll say to you I mean I sit on tech the tech committee which is for London it's run by London councils with all cabinet leads holding my portfolio in all the councils in London and we're all chasing the same thing so when there's this sudden rush for people making councils having climate emergencies and declaring all of this we're all trying to achieve the same thing we're all really so the demand really has outstripped the supply and universities colleges and so on are trying to catch up if you like with that so I think this is one of the big things and Pippo because obviously she will tell you in terms of skills thank you Avril so the inclusive economy strategy that was agreed the middle of this year it includes a target a theme if you like a priority theme in relation to green the green economy and already we've had some success with our partner LSEC the FE college to secure some funding from GLA to create a green skills lab over at the Greenwich Park site and then we're also in discussion with the universities in the borough to make sure that the green skills agenda is within the curriculum so that the talent can be secured for local businesses through local FE and HE institutions so we are really trying to pursue it Can I just come on in just on the back of that I do know that there are some FE colleges that are doing the T level in construction etc and they've got focus on the making much greener jobs so are we actually tapping into those sort of resources and recommending that the construction companies that we work with also support that as well yeah so through our work with Greenwich Local Labour and Business GLAB and our relationship with the local developers in the section 106 agreement we ask them to use GLAB and through that then the relationship with the pipeline of people with those skills and directing them to the HENF colleges to make sure that they're securing them to then fulfil local labour requirements so yes we are and we're trying to expand on that yeah follow up on that can please yeah go ahead can we visit the lab the Green Schools lab as a panel yeah thank you we were due to have a launch but with the multiple pre-election periods we haven't and so it will be in the new year thank you very much Pippa any other question for Pippa and George any question for Ryan on transport I see none no question for I've got a question I think Councillor Coe mentioned the charging points and all fleets of vehicle I believe that we're at when I read the report it said that I think our progress is 5.5% of making our vehicles our own fleets compatible what I need to find out is that I think you mentioned about funding being an issue are we doing like a proposal of investments coming forward for charging capacity I can see Kate shaking her head yes the whole feasibility study being done I think it's been carried out by DREZ is looking at you know how I mean Birchmere would need to be really undergo a whole if I say dig out it will end up making everybody panic but no it will need to go through a lot of work to get it done and the logistics of having that kind of level of work because the points the electric points just haven't got the capacity so if we're doing that where would these vehicles be operating from so it's a whole logistic challenge for the team so it will be when we see the feasibility study and all the sort of complexities that go with that that I guess the teams will be able to look at it but I do have to say that whilst it's not everybody's cup of tea you know where we are we've been able to use biofuels we've seen a 95% reduction in carbon emissions in some of our vehicles and we've been doing that to reduce the carbon output at this stage as a meantime Thanks to follow up on the EV charging infrastructure kind of plan I guess my question is what steps are being taken to make sure there's adequate infrastructure to meet that 51% target I know that I've received quite a few complaints from residents who don't feel that they can get an electric car because there's not enough points around to charge their car and they can't charge at their house because they park on street parking and I know they were looking into things like going under the pavements but that didn't seem to be feasible either so are we able to meet those targets if we don't have I'll let Ryan answer because we are having you know I think between Lewisham and ourselves there's been 8 million pounds funding from the Levi organization so we I'll let we're moving moving very fast in that direction probably not moving fast enough obviously we're talking about our own fleet we're talking about electrification but on this one we're talking about residential so we've got a larger procurement bid that we're working with Lewisham on and that's in conjunction with London councils and the office of zero emission fleet and energy saving trust as well so we've been working very closely then we've put in a bid which we're hoping to hear back from at the end of the year which we'll see around about 12 to 1500 residential charges introduced throughout the whole borough alongside that we we decided to do our own procurement because we didn't know which one was going to come first and our own procurement has probably worked out probably a lot more difficult to deal with than the one we're working with Lewisham on but we're still on target to have 200 charges introduced by the end of the financial year it's a really strange market it's quite volatile and even through the immense resource that's been involved on the bid with Lewisham we're just seeing lots of different splits in terms of income from the viability of the energy it's really strange market and really new and a lot of boroughs that we're speaking to haven't quite cracked it yet Lewisham are in a very similar position to us doing the exact same thing trying to get a quick win which isn't turning out to be a quick win in opening up the market to get more charges in the borough but I'm hoping that with the Levi fund and the Levi bid rather than providers putting in charges where they know they're going to get people using them it's going to give us a lot more build and people will then have the ability to have some in the area and in time obviously then people might switch to those vehicles and they'll be used a lot more so it's not necessarily just about profit for some of the organisations but I think I will come in because it is another area that you know for me I look at it from a public liability safety perspective people moving homes there are lots of providers out there that provide these gullies I'm not aware of any London borough that's trialled and it's really worked again I'm only talking to Lewisham because we're working with them on the bid but I'm yet to see you know one that you know really really works and that we can ensure that there's no maintenance liability on us as a council going forward as well in terms of upkeep of the asset but it is an area that we're avidly looking for a solution on but I'm struggling to find one that really hits the spot at the moment thank you councillor Fletcher please thanks do the lamp column charging points work you know some boroughs are trialling lamp columns to charge cars yes so the procurement obviously there's different types there's the rapid charges and there's the slow to medium charges on lamp columns I'd say it's probably likely that we won't be tapping into the lamp column and we'd actually be providing charging bollards alongside it mainly because of the power sources that are needed to do that and also the structural integrity of the column in some places and in some places well accessibility for vehicles because opening car doors and having them in the bays where we need them there's not you know a lamp column every other we will try to utilize lamp columns but the charging bollards that will be going with will be bespoke and there'll be a lot less sort of maintenance liabilities on them so yeah they're still slow charges so to speak which is what would be added to the column um is that answer your question okay yeah councillor hartley thanks chair um just to go back to the at home charging i've pestered you both about this before and and i just heard that no london borough has trialed this but bromley has they're only right next door and i've raised it a few times and so and i think it was looked into by officers at some point that's the oxford i think it was oxford city council um uh gully sort of system so that trial was in mid 2023 did we look into that have we evaluated it and you know lewisham's next door but so is bromley it's an excellent very well run council so uh we might want to work on the southern border as well yeah um we have looked into it i would you know i would hate into head that i haven't heard that it's been rolled out and worked in a lot of you know a lot of places it's been trialed um i can certainly go back to them again and see how many they've installed and how it's performing and if it is performing well then maybe i will um look to bring that in and offer it as a solution that's what i was going to say you're making all the recommendation tonight so well done thank you um any other question for ryan thank you ryan um can i invite uh richard to come please housing issues um counter look yes please sustainability and the cabinet lead um is um on ground to answer any of the uh relevant questions are there any questions for uh yep councillor john farhi uh thank you chair uh just two questions really um in terms of um gas boilers is there um the prospect of moving to air or heat sources uh over the coming years and the second point is with regard to the uh summary of achievements to date on paragraph 4.2 uh it talks about 600 homes um were um brought up the standard but we have a housing stock of 20 000 plus so um how is that going to be achieved uh within bearing in mind that the pressures on uh housing uh improving our housing stocker is significant how are we going to achieve that thanks um thank you councillor so the ambition um i'll answer the first question then i'll give a bigger picture for the second question uh and it might um uh speak to some of councillor hartley's points as well earlier so the ambition is uh where appropriate and most likely we would move to um air source heat pumps uh and we've done things like we've cross trained our uh gas fitters to try and future proof them and get them to kind of understand air source heat pumps and how we service them going forward and a lot of the um uh new build properties we're taking on have things like air source ground source heat pumps uh and we've done a few uh installations ourselves such as uh earnest dense where we did a ground source heat pump um so the the aim is and the the large ambition for us in housing is to have a a carbon neutral stock zero carbon stock uh but this takes on to kind of the second part of the question the second question which is um what what really does that mean um so as i think says in the report our main aim at the moment is to get all our properties to an epcc energy performance certificate c and the reason for that is if you put an air source heat pump in uh if it's below that standard then it's probably not going to work it's probably not going to heat the home and the cost is going to be extortionate for residents so it's why uh kind of the the phrase was used fabric first fix a fabric make sure it's insulated then you can move to things like air source and ground source heat pumps um we did have a bid for and members may be aware that we bid for um shdf social housing decarbonization fund wave two funding uh we got five million from um government and we put 20 million in ourselves and that's the 600 properties uh that we're doing and of which we've done i think as of today we've done about 117 and the rest are due to be on by next september um so that program is ongoing but i think that highlights the issue uh we've got here and uh speaks to the earlier point around housing is that on average you are looking at about 40 000 pound per home um to to do this retrofit and do this and if you think we've got we have got 20 000 ish housing stock and that works out to about 800 million pounds and we don't have 800 million pounds in the business plan the hra housing revenue account couldn't um uh afford that much right now and also as you've said there is other priorities going on and the two big levers in my area that i'd point to will be fire safety and the investment in fire safety and things like cladding and improving our the fire safety of our buildings but also clearly there's a priority around damper mold as well and making sure that our properties uh uh tackled for that so and when you also look at capital spend and that we have got a very ambitious capital program that members signed off which was around 480 million over five to seven years that also includes lifts it includes kitchens and bathrooms it includes various aspects so we've got 480 million for the entire of capital and we've got an 800 million pound ask for making our home zero carbon so i think the comment earlier is entirely correct which is the ambition is fabulous for us in housing we really want to get there the reality of where the funding is is difficult and there is more funding coming out and we'll be applying for and have applied for but generally that funding at the moment gets you about seven thousand five hundred pound per home so it's extra money that we wouldn't have had before and that's great but you also then have to find another thirty two thousand thirty two and a half thousand yourself on average to get that home to an epcc where you can where you can put these other things like air source heat pumps in so that's the scale of the challenge it's not one we're backing away from but the reality is it's a lot of money and there's other priorities and at the moment we couldn't afford to do that across the entirety of our stock so more is coming it didn't need a massive cash injection to do even more and more and more on that we're going to have to do that thank you thank you am i correct in saying because just listening to what you've said and putting monetary value on what it'll cost am i correct in saying that for the retrospeak sorry for bringing our properties up to date sorry john microphone sorry we could actually cost out that piece of the carbon neutral plan is that what you're saying because it seems as if with all these projection we could actually cost out so then when we're looking at our budget and our capital expenditure we should actually be looking at the impact that the our ambitious target will have on our budget but i don't see that you've said it i don't see that when i'm looking at listening to budget conversations or when we're having this discussion um so i think we can put a fairly ballpark figure on on on retrofit of the entirety of our stock but the work we've been doing at the moment where i quote kind of the 40 000 pound is street properties and it gets even more complicated when you're talking about having to retrofit a high-rise building building or with all the building safety elements we have in for that came in force this year maybe having to clad a building what you clad it in to improve its energy performance doing the windows at the same time doing the roofs at the same time so i would imagine it could be even more of an average for those properties when when you're doing retrofit on there but at a very simple level we're seeing an average of for street properties 40 000 40 000 times 20 000 is about 800 million pounds well he's 800 million pounds so that's a very that's a very rough ballpark but there's a lot of if ands buts in there already what's already at epcc or above um what archetypes have we got are we talking how many high-rise buildings medium-rise buildings what else needs doing to those properties at the same time so we can give some sense of um how much it would cost um there'd need to be a significant significant piece of work to make that absolutely meaningful i think thank you um and avril why i ask because i think the conversation tonight it seemed to be very reactive in how we do these um you know the action points so what i was hearing was that we'll look you know there's a fund becoming available and then we'll plan towards it so i wanted to know can we not have a plan and then source um the funding seek for funding um that's the sort of um plan i would like to see us have for 2030 so we've got a plan set out in terms of roughly how much it'll cost and then we uh proactively look for funding so i don't know if that's something your team is already doing in terms of looking for funding so um just to sort of echo what richard said we do have the ballpark figures in some of the areas of the action plan so even though when we say the action plan is not fully costed some of the programs in there are up to up to 2030 have been so we've done a heap decarbonisation plan for the corporate state for example that i think is in the ballpark about 500 million pounds so once you start adding that to the 800 million things start to get very very expensive so we can definitely work with colleagues across the council to flesh out some of the more costed actions it does go back to these the way we've split up the action plan in terms of do you want us to cost up the interim 25 actions or the end of the action plan is not fully costed because it would make more sense to do the latter because it would make more sense to do the latter because that will take us to 2030 obviously but then there's a little bit of less accuracy around that ballpark figure because it's all subject to future funding that may or may not happen so it is kind of a bit of a tricky balance in and that's in terms of how much are we going to forecast for the future that we can actually reasonably provide a good estimate of what things are going to cost and how much are we actually going to sort of have to say we need to kind of sort of wait and see what what is actually going to materialize there's a lot of volatility across all the sort of associated markets so supply chains are bottlenecking and that is increasing costs so things like that where there are sort of unknown unknowns essentially as well that could significantly raise costs as well so it is that sort of balancing that that we'd need to consider thank you thank you thank you very much and I think that the scale of the challenge you're dealing with this is like really really clear so two questions about housing and one's a more political question but the with the housing bearing in mind what you said about fire safety and damper mould being obviously really clear priorities as well is there a particular sort of type or era of our own council housing stock you would prioritize for retrofit that you think would be a more appropriate I don't know maybe it's of a particular type of flats or houses or a particular era it was built and the second kind of housing question is when you're dealing with sort of buying properties off the open market to sort of help with the temporary accommodation crisis is that also a factor in those sort of like kind of what will help sort of that's just how insulated these buildings are when you're buying them from the open market there and then the slightly more political question for councillor like how if possible was in the report it talks about calling upon the government to do more in funding schemes and is that a conversation you're having or is it well with the leadership and with local representatives local representatives yes I think if you as you can see this the work that we do pans right across the council so with my cabinet colleagues we are we are all having conversations where we can to to and not just government but you know with the mayor in terms of transport as well so these conversations are taking place we are making representations to where we can I'd probably need to come back to you on the the type of kind of archetype and stuff we've got an incredibly intelligent sustainability manager who could talk for hours and hours and hours and hours about such things so by all I'm quite happy to come back to you on on those points but it's anything under APC C that we're looking at and actually when we've done things like SHTF wave 2 where we put the bid in we would have done all that work but then say which are the worst type what archetypes do you need to invest in and there would have been a lot of data work done around that but I can provide lots of data afterwards if you want that's not a problem the buying properties on the open market is a very interesting one so there's two well there's a few separate pieces and people may or may not jump in at some point so we've done so we've done large scale buying of properties such as Greenwich Millennium Village and that is new build and you would expect it to be a fairly high EPC and a fairly good standard of carbon efficiency etc so in a sense there's very little concern around those buildings other buildings other buildings we've been buying we've been purchasing there's a street property program where I think we've purchased around 600 I want to say around 600 I think about 600 street properties for temporary accommodation and they are probably the ones less likely to be well I'd say less likely they're the ones where I don't think we know we've not got a specific plan around this is this is activity we're going to do and probably at some point um we'll be assessing um you know what actions we need to take with those in earnest because it's getting to quite a you know 600 properties it's not a small number I think it's it's that the the point there though is that one those those street properties are actually general fund so if you were to invest significant amounts of funds in there you'd need to find the money from the general fund and general fund capital you might have to pay that back and there's there's a cost model and a model of um kind of maybe borrowing to invest and does that pay back over the long term and that's got to be taken into account uh and then there's also in the sense of um the stuff we're buying and there are some um and it's all these levers as a council we've got to pull that say a housing association doesn't have to pull so there's many housing associations out there who've said we're not going to do new build anymore we're not going to buy properties we're going to just invest in stock because that's all we can do but they don't have a massive temporary accommodation crisis where we need to do both through the hra and through the general fund so we can um have a greater pool of properties so we can solve you know people in hotels for long periods of times with the children so we can so it's all this balance of there's not an unlimited pot of money what are we going to spend money on and the priority around the street person program has been let's get people out of expensive temporary accommodation into much better settled housing not necessarily energy efficiency on those so not to say we're not thinking about it i won't look at it but that's a priority for those for those schemes thank you councillor hartley thank you chair and that 800 million pound figure is eye-watering and there was a that national announcement last month of a billion pound in private sector lending in bank lending for retrofitting and what you're saying is that would just about cover one london borough you know greenwich but that national wealth fund announcement is that is that access to that lending does that come in is that sort of on your radar uh um is there any way that can be applied and just thinking more broadly about the private sector one thing that does mark london boroughs and greenwich out is the sheer level of development and is there any opportunity to access developers buying power to bring down our costs costs that forty thousand pound cost per house is there anything we can do to kind of take advantage of the the private sector activity in the borough i think this is an area where i'm not going to trip myself up trying to talk about something i don't know i don't i don't know the answer those questions to be honest uh the funding i'm aware of for retrofit in our houses the social housing decarbonization fund and there's been a new round of funding and that's a seven and a half thousand per property that i've referenced the other areas of funding uh i'm not particularly knowledgeable on and i i don't want to trip myself up on that and i'm not sure if pippa has anything on the uh the private the developers buying power um i think just just pippa may or may not want to come in on that the the um the only thing i'd reflect on is a comment from earlier which is um you know could we do more in council housing if that was our our kind of focus as a council uh i think it is good to remember that um the council housing is the housing revenue account we spend housing revenue account money on our housing and spending general fund money on housing i think it legally could be done but it's generally not done and of course the general fund has massive pressures in itself and we can't spend uh housing revenue account money on the general fund properties either so there is that that difficulty of you know two parts of money both of which are stretched and that investment piece but you know two parts of money both of you know two parts of the government and that's a great question thanks richard um so i think we'd have to check procurement regulations um so i wouldn't want to commit one way or the other i suppose the difference with um the challenge that richard has and the what developers do is developers are constructing new they're not retrofitting they're not retrofitting so i suspect that we can learn quite a lot in terms of how developers are using new technology so that we become more informed and educated about what works well and what doesn't but i think it might be difficult to think that there are many opportunities where the bulk purchase and economies of scale would be achieved because i don't think necessarily we will be looking to purchase exactly the same things i mean we may but um but you know and it would be dependent upon the developers willingness as well so i'm not sure is the answer but it is something that we could test out in terms of an initial conversation with procurement and then just see whether there's any appetite from some of the developers that we know better than others thank you you've managed my expectations very well um it just feels like there's two dots that potentially might be joined and we're at the unique in the unique position of having some leverage and also this is bang on developers csr priorities you know they should want to be funding this and thank you and just to reassure richard we come to meetings and talk about things that we don't know about all the time so um and kind of my last question is from the macro to the micro um you've talked a lot about the big challenge we've also got the council also has the repairs uh transformation program underway we've got people out in properties daily um doing minor repairs um what's in place to kind of not walk past problems either again very micro level you know how are we ensuring that easy fixes broken windows dislodged insulation holes in roofs that you know of the kind that you do find uh are you know how is it being prioritized in that very small scale through the repairs work what's the what's the join just as i go to meetings and talk about stuff i don't know all the time just not on camera when i'm being recorded so it's uh slightly different so i think it's it's a it's a good question uh counselor a good question to raise and and to be honest our um repairs transformation program has been about how we can get a better service through to the customers not really looked through the lens of um carbon neutral uh and to be honest i've never thought of that myself because i've got i've got carbon neutral plans in one area and we've got capital in one area and we've got repairs and priorities and timeliness and quality and all that so i think if i'll take that one away if you don't mind council have a think about how that might work but um the repairs and investment team do very helpfully send over some indicative carbon figures where there is in where they implement energy efficiency work so they are really helpful in terms of the whole data collection process as well that's good to hear could i throw those two recommendations in joining the dots on private sector investment and um and linking up with the repairs transformation program if i may chair i do hope you i'm struggling to keep up with the recommendations but yes i will take those on board in addition to that this is a very in a very useful point and this is on the same linked into what you said but more on the transport so when we send our staff so it's more like a rbg staff model shift kind of position that we need to take generally uh when we send staff out when staff are going out to do repairs work as well um could we do something about the wasted journey back and forth so maybe looking at um the jobs which are logged uh the location that sort of thing then having three four visits going to the same area um if we could tie that up because i think that would also reduce the travel time and uh contribute to our footprint um i think we can piggyback that on the recommendation that matt made yeah councillor leo fletcher yeah thanks chair just just to say on that i did have this conversation with richard's predecessor uh in the lava was on the repairs panel and um the suggestion was at the time was that if you knew you had 15 jobs in greenwich firing the greenwich stepford you could fill the van with the materials for the week and the operative because most operative takes the van fan takes the van home could then spend a week doing them jobs rather than going from from greenwich from dettford to birchmere picking up the job going to the stores picking up the stores all the way back daily daily daily daily and and they was looking at linking that with multi-skilled tradesmen so he could go straight in do the plumbing do the electrical and the tiling but i know i probably not on your right because i know you've had a lot a lot more a lot more stuff to do but so just uh chair and councillor fletcher just to give assurances that actually the planning of how we do work and and travel time etc is one of the many many things we talk about a lot in repairs and it's got so many wins it's got wins around carbon neutral but it's also got wins around the efficiency of our trade staff it's got wins around how well we're serving customers it's got wins around how much money we save on not doing those journeys backwards and forwards is win-win-win-win-win and it's a big conversation we have on our planning system and how we can plan correctly and not have people driving backwards and forwards in the borough all the time so it's an absolute key focus uh just from simply running a business and if you did it just from a um i want to run a direct labor organization business and i want that to be as cheap as possible then you'd you'd not want people driving backwards and forwards in the borough uh but it also adds to those wins such as carbon neutral so it's a conversation that's live and we have often about how we can best achieve that and that is something the transformation team is is is looking at and addressing uh council thank you um it seems like there's been some positive progress um on kind of i guess decarbonizing our maintained schools um which obviously helps school finances with cheaper energy costs hopefully um i just wanted to ask um what's the status of sort of energy audits i guess for schools following this work and i'm sorry if i missed that somewhere in the report um and is there any other more funding like the funding that was asked that we got um anywhere else that we can keep doing that supporting our school so with regards to the energy audits um they do take place routinely as part of doing the public sector decarbonization scheme so we do have to provide a really good evidence in terms of actually putting that bid together we've been talking about how we might be able to roll that out and do all the maintained schools and achieve that sort of economies of scale um it's very expensive to do that so we've been trying to sort of figure out how we can sort of identify funding such as the low carbon skills fund for example which is similar to the psds but it's more about actually those sort of feasibility studies um so when the next time the uh the window opens for that sort of funding application we're going to try and bundle the schools up and see where we can align with that but it's a work in progress um thank you are there any other questions for richard no thank you richard i think pippa you might as well stay this back and forth i may invite kate wilson now to uh talk we'll talk about everything waste thanks kate for uh coming in do we have any question for kate yes yeah so my question is on electric dust carts simple question do they work if we are going to procure electric dust carts do we get them on a three-month trial period to see if they work before we purchase because i know when we retrofitted the green one the old the old old dennis dust carts to electric it spent a lot of time in the yard because of mechanical issues electrical issues so i was just wondering whether we're looking at the pitfalls because i know everyone i mean we're all on electric but if it doesn't work then there's no point in us purchasing it i just wonder what your thoughts was on that really if you don't mind yeah thanks very much councillor fletcher i mean look it when we enter into um all of these conversations about moving across to electric vehicles um i can absolutely assure you that the team will give a very robust and rigorous um assessment of all of the vehicles that are open to them um and as um as time goes by a new products emerge into the market because it's an it's a constantly evolving market so um they will take all of that into account because you're right from from five years ago there's been improvements in technology so it doesn't stand still so but to absolutely answer your your question um we will look for the best value that the trade that the market has to offer in in moving forward thank you councillor hartley thank you chair um my question's on recycling um so this panel a year ago um recommended one of the two recommendations that weren't accepted by cabinet the minority that weren't accepted one of them was um that we didn't think the recycling target of five percent increase was anywhere near ambitious enough and that wasn't accepted by a cabinet and 5.2 in this table it says uh action status household recycling rate at 29 is that right below the below the baseline of 33 from 2019 yes that's right that is it is accurate so so what's going on there um you know we've got a lower than baseline recycling rate despite the move to fortnightly collections and all of the comms and engagement that's gone in um are you expecting to see that rise as a result of towards zero waste and and how much yes so the actual rise is 3.8 percent in 22 23 so um we're very much on track to turning that around so where did the fall there must have been a huge fall around the pandemic time sort of time 2020 if it was 33 in 2019 and we're we're sort of saying we've done well because we've we've done a three percent increase you know we're we're not even back to where we were just before the pandemic no absolutely the pandemic was absolutely um the reason for that drop so but but we're confident that we will continue to build on that albeit um even one percent increase is is incredibly difficult to achieve so we're actually thrilled that we we've made the 3.8 as a as a as a result of the um move to fortnightly residual waste collection but we have got a lot more to do to get near to the 50 mark that that um that the the london mayor is is asking of us and the the big problem is flat it flats isn't it and uh what what specifically you know in terms of you know 80 20 where's our effort going into flats i assume and improving the recycling rate from flats what what specifically are we doing about that aspect of the problem yeah absolutely so flats are the eternal problem because obviously they don't have their individual um um bins for us to to collect they go into a communal bin and all it takes is for one resident to contaminate that and then your whole um 240 litre um almost a thousand litre bin has been contaminated so it gets written off so we're doing a number of things with our street and waste advisor service in trying to capture um what what are the things that are preventing people from recycling responsibly and there's other things um so for example in um sorry it's okay okay um but um and as an example of the challenge that we face that you know the fact that we only moved three point something percent with that whole massive um shift in the way we um collected um waste just illustrates the the challenge the other thing is that more and more developments that are coming into the uh borough are in terms of flats so we do really need to do some some work in that i know that the team has been going out we used to send teams out to kind of talk to people a lot but we're being challenged by some of the squeezing of our budgets aren't we kate sorry apologies councillor i i lost my words for a moment um in greenwich peninsula for example obviously modern developments are much better placed um with with the technologies and the way that the the the development is is built to allow uh easier collection of of the waste but the trouble is we don't have enough of of those developments operating in that way to justify us um purchasing the new vehicles for example that will allow us to do that for example so as the developments come on um that that will allow us to to to bring the right vehicles to collect them in a more efficient way which would hopefully see a rise in the recyclable items thank you um thank you kate um can i just check maybe with pippa in terms of uh development and are we able to investigate if um you know if we can phase in a requirement for new construction to be um to aim for a zero emission within the borough i don't know if that's a it's not a planning matter i'm just wondering if that's something that can be investigated as we plan towards a 2030 or move towards our 2030 target so is that something that can be investigated thank you yes so um at the moment we're preparing a supplementary planning document which is a um effective replacement of a previous greener greenwich spd and so within that it will have um guidance to land owners developers applicants on what we would expect to see in terms of technology and what impact that has on the development so that there's a sort of suite if you like of um the choices that they could make that we would find acceptable so um when that's not not quite in draft form yet so we haven't shared it with a cabinet member but as and when that's been with the cabinet member i'd be happy to bring it to scrutiny so you can see um or share it through the normal processes in terms of um getting a member engagement so you can see what's proposed because obviously it would need to be adopted by uh cabinet thank you councillor farhi uh thank you chair uh on the point of um uh waste uh uh on our flats and all of that seems to me uh over the years that the the frequency of collections is a problem because collections well the bins are mostly full weekends obviously but are never collected weekends and so therefore the rubbish is mixed and so therefore that in my view causes a problem so therefore is there a mechanism of altering the rounds so that the collections can be more frequent uh on flats and therefore um reduce the problems that councillor hartley's identified the other point i wanted to make is uh in terms of the landfill uh what impact if any uh is that likely to have in terms of the changes that have taken place in relation to meeting our targets thanks well um very simply the impact that it will have on landfill it will significantly reduce the amount of waste that we are taking to landfill and it's significantly um a low figure at the moment um could you repeat your first question please see of collections on uh in our flats in our platted areas yeah thank you very much um i mean obviously we're about to embark on um looking at the way that we collect our our waste and moving towards a single waste um collection so at the moment you'll you'll be aware that we do um double collections with the um green waste and recycling in the morning and the household waste in the afternoon where we're working towards moving towards a single collection so all of that will be considered in in that piece of work and and if there are any um recommendations to be made for doing more frequent collections for flatted properties we can build that into that piece of work and just to add that um moving to the single shift would um give us the capacity that we lack at the moment to be able to do things like that uh thank you are there any other questions counselor fletcher yeah i know we we got waste on the housing scrutiny panel and the questions are was was the question was john was asking about the paladins the big paladins on the council estates rather than street collections i think that's a bigger conversation between housing and waste on recycling infrastructure i think it's a huge project but it was mainly uh being collections on council estates rather than street properties our capacity will grow when we change the shift system so we'll be able to have that capacity is what i'm saying so yes have that conversation nevertheless but i think we'll be in a better position to be responsive to the issues raised thank you and just checking in terms of waste um before i bring you in council cook um how do we i don't know so it might be silly question how do we transport our waste is it a sustainable means of transport uh do we use ev vehicle is it by river i don't know so i'm i don't know if you could just educate me we use the vehicles that you see coming to your doorstep to pick up the rubbish um but as i said earlier um a lot of our vehicles are using biofuel and the biofuel um has enabled us not only is it slightly cheaper now um but it's um has the result of a 95 percent reduction in the carbon emissions so um you know earlier you said that we our contract um our agreement for the incineration is coming to up for renewal um is that in a couple of years i mean it's not like it's not like okay it's not next week it's 20 29. oh okay but these are long negotiations is what i was trying to say these things take time and you know we have to yeah thank thank you if i could just say um we're in in the process of developing um our latest waste strategy which includes all of the forms of waste disposal um obviously which are um services that that cost us over 11 million pounds a year at the moment so we're just in the early stages of doing that but um that that will set our set the tone for for coming years thank you very helpful councillor cook thank you um following on from the questions about uh contaminated recycling in uh flats i i don't know if this is more of an issue for me in my ward but um i seem to get a lot of complaints about contaminated waste and hmos um and i don't know and maybe this isn't the right place for it but i don't know if there's any more that's being done because it doesn't feel like i get regular case work about that bins never getting taken outside of hmos because they're always contaminated and obviously that's not doing anything for our recycling levels you know i i get a lot of case work on this um so it's it's it's some people will argue that um you need to give more bins to um hmos and others will say the more bins you give the more rubbish is generated um and it's very very challenging because you know if it's one household then there's a a point of responsibility at some point um and as you know with the other uh systems we were able to send the three letter um three three three letters and a strike but what we try to do is um work with um our our partners and our teams to try and get these um hmos when we know that they're registered some of them are not some we identify as hmos on the basis of the rubbish that's generated um so it it is a problem and it's not just for your ward um yes i know your ward has a high number of hmos but it's it's a challenge that we're trying to work with and education i think is always the best thing but the turnover in in in in these hmos you know is is very often quite high so we might send some teams to talk to people um today and five months down the road it's a whole different group living in there counselor thank you chair just to follow on to that excellent question a really good question um do we engage with the landlord as well because make it a problem for the landlord and they will make it a problem for the tenant yeah absolutely that is um part of the the conversation that we have it's it's kind of like a three-way process between ourselves the tenants and the landlord because ultimately it is their responsibility to provide sufficient um um ways for for their tenants to to be able to comply with with what we need them to do i think that's a an interesting point because i think when we raise caseworks i think there seemed to be a pushback to say you know we're not the landlord so i think hearing that we'll be pushing when we submit caseworks as well so that um that three-way conversation can happen because whilst it's on paper it should happen i don't think it's um happening enough um so i think that's something we'll pick up in terms of the caseworks um do we have any other question no other question what are you basing that on basing it on individual caseworks so when we submit casework and the responses so i'm saying what kate said is is interesting but we're not seeing that when we get responses for when we put in similar raise similar concern okay so you but effectively you need the teams to be explaining the process that they've gone through so that you are understanding of that maybe that's what we're not doing but okay um are there no there are no other questions what we're going to do because there's been quite a few recommendations and and things to follow up on um okay no go ahead and maybe it is the waste section i'm not sure well so very small um you know the woolwich library of things um that seems to it's small but you know has um had some success are we looking to expand that to some of the other libraries in the borough um but i i mean i think you can see the the results have been really good for 47 000 pounds of things that people could have bought that they've not needed to buy and um i think what our challenge was was to be able to you know again resources in the expansion of that program if we had it in all areas it would be wonderful but it is about resource um and storage um and so on and so forth but you know as as it as as we develop and we see areas that we can find money to do that and we you know did you want to say something kate yeah just to add to that um i think where we can really help is by helping to promote the library of things because i think although there's an established user group i think there's a lot of people that don't know it exists so that's another way that we can try and increase the usage to to and then obviously if the time comes then we can look at expanding it in other places thank you kate um we're going to invite debbie now there might be some strategic high-level uh question um specifically around how we um how we manage or how we plan our budgets and how the you know our 2030 target how does it feed into how do we weave that into the whole overall structure so i believe councillor hartley will start with you thank you chair hi debbie um we've made recommendations uh on the order and risk management panel before about risk in relation to the carbon neutral plan i think i'm right in saying that pip is the risk owner for the top level strategic risk and a point i've raised a few times is that i i think it should be you because um the carbon neutral plan is so cross-cutting like the mtfs it's very clear that the risk owner um is damon for the mtfs but for both the mtfs and and carbon neutral plan the book kind of stops with you so i just wonder what your view was on that why have we got one individual in on gmt uh a risk owner uh thanks uh council hartley i thought the buck stopped with me on everything so it was quite refreshing um to see someone else uh someone else's name in the box i mean you know in practical terms you know it everything comes back to me so i don't really have any objection either way if it's pippa's name there it still means me in my mind um you know that we are one of the same but yeah that's my response okay fair enough um and uh the second question is about uh i've kind of i i find these sessions fascinating and it's really great and i'm a big admirer of george's work and i find them also very frustrating because we've it seems we on all of this stuff we've got 32 london boroughs trying to do the same thing feeling around in the dark because it's new uh we're doing some things very well us are no doubt doing some things very well so from your role as london borough chief exec how you know what's the broader landscape are there efficiencies and economies of scale do you talk about that with other chief execs across london that kind of uh question yeah i mean um the london picture is very much that there is a lead london chief exec for this um i am the lead london chief exec for finance um so uh out of my uh chief exec group we kind of take uh an overarching responsibility part of that is to keep our brethren uh as well informed as we might be by being in the right conversations with the right people um and sharing that information i think everyone thinks that every london borough is the same and actually we are quite different um we're grappling with different things at different times for different reasons um you've heard you know 800 million pounds to put air source heat pumps in every one of our council properties there's always this competition going on for resources and capacity to do these things um in terms of that 800 million pound ask we can't borrow 800 million pounds because we haven't got the revenue capacity to pay it back we are concentrating on those who have no homes at the moment very much so and that's a laser focus we have as an organization and if that is to the detriment of the work that we've discussed this evening then unfortunately that's the reality um of of um the what we are being asked to do as a business in support of our residents and our communities so that that push and pull is happening everywhere across london across the uk quite frankly in every in every uh council wherever it is so we share information we talk a lot of the information we share is there's a new bidding there's a new funding pot let's bid we share information on how to bid for those if there's a magic button to press you know we all let each other know about it we may bid on a london-wide basis through london council's tech you know there are lots of different routes but essentially we are waiting for national government you know to open a door somewhere that and and to invite us in and we all crowd in as quickly as possible so that we can get a piece of that action um but paying for all of this ourselves is just an impossible task um so that's the name of the game and that's how we've been able to progress as much as we have progressed is by being successful uh in bidding for pots of money but there isn't a pot of money that says here you can have an air source heat pump for every one of your council properties particularly when we're tackling damper mold as richard has said fire safety that that's top of the hierarchy of needs unfortunately um and and that's where we the organization will will focus us and and that's just reality i'm afraid any uh council for he sorry uh thank you for your your comments and uh they're appreciated do i detect from the comments you make that uh effectively um the discussion we're having this evening um magnifies the challenge in terms of resources uh and competing resources uh both within the 32 london boroughs and within the borough itself in terms of the objectives so as a consequence of that um is it likely that the plan before us this evening is likely to be frustrated by the lack of resources longer term because government have a pot of money 32 london boroughs bidding for it it then becomes small change in in reality so is there likely to be a continuing review as to the priorities within the plan i think to deliver the plan by 2030 as it's currently set out we will need the national agenda to work with us i think is what i'm saying to you we cannot do this on our own we cannot do it as a group of 32 london boroughs we cannot do it as a sector a a a public sector local authority group um so um we need to see where the legislation goes where the fund how the funding matches those changes in legislation where customer behavior goes we're hearing about electric cars you know this week um you know the the motor industry is is not going to be producing many more because there isn't a market for them but why is that so that everything's got to come together and work together to generate the outcome that we are seeking i think what george and others have described is it's very difficult to look five years ahead to know what that context what that environment might look like but we all travel in hope we all we aim high we have ambition we have aspiration and we can't let that stop us but we aren't in the drop in the driving seat pardon the analogy we're not in the driving seat on this john we can we can we can um articulate exactly what we need um and and why we need it um but but then we're at the we're we're you know we're waiting you know for uh significant national shifts to facilitate that delivery but in the meantime we will push on we are we're creating exemplars um you know uh examples that can win hearts and minds and pockets you know and encourage others that can install their own air source heat pump you know to do so so you know you sell you sell the dream you sell the the idea the benefits and everything else that's difficult to do with a family living in a cold damp property and as richard said you've got to grapple with that first that's top priority before you even think about installing an air source heat pump um so that's the push and pull um that we are living in unfortunately thank you debbie um and and it's good that you are sitting at this table i think at the beginning um i've said we can't compare apples with pear in terms of different councils doing um different things but as council hartley um set out i think it will you mentioned bromley so there are councils who are doing good on some things we're doing um good on something so at the table where you share those best practices um is there a feel that generally there need to be a renewed ambition you know resetting of targets um across the uh you know the 32 london boroughs but also internally i mean you've got oversight what i heard tonight there are some directorates which are doing great and then others um i don't think we're doing the joint thinking uh where we can do more so i just want to get your feel your honest view in terms of what we can do more as a borough but also um i mean what message you can send out there in terms of maybe overall we need to look at um this uh policy again look at if it's uh too ambitious and whether the top it needs to be stretched maybe 30 20 35 um it could be that other london boroughs are thinking the same so if you could share your views on that yeah sure i mean these are just my views but uh i think um every council in london is just struggling to survive at the moment i think it's it's really as simple as that um we have more than half a dozen who are in exceptional final financial support conversations this is about doing the basics that we need to do for our communities and and that includes finding accommodation for those that are homeless so um i i whilst it's um there's a there's a huge commitment to the delivery of this uh we're being very much uh put on the back foot because of all the other issues that we are grappling with and they are numerous um and they are hugely challenging you know i've never seen uh the the the numbers you know funding gap numbers overspend numbers in my 40-year career i've never seen the numbers as big as this we used to shake if we had a million pounds overspend now we're talking 40 50 million in some london boroughs you know it's it's just enormous in terms of whether we should shift from 2030 to 2035 for me that's the choice as to how ambitious you want to be or how realistic you want to be and it's it's that balance isn't it and um you know i'm a glasses half full person i think you should aim high and then you should be able to explain why you haven't reached that target and you have a mature discussion about that rather than a blame discussion um i kind of i would say to my children well if you if you aim too low um i'm going to be very suspicious of that because i think you can do better than that so it really it's a matter for for for you as politicians and us as officers uh to reach a position on on on that date um but i also think that the date in many respects is meaningless it's what you do that matters it's the actions it's it's the the differences that you make along that journey that are critical um and and as i said around air source heat pumps people have to believe in what you're doing they have to buy into the objectives that you're setting yourself and if you can just get a few hearts and minds in that um it's always amazes me how that spreads um without too much effort from the local authority actually um so you know pushing on uh with good examples uh you know showcasing you know potential uh technology is shifting all the time that's the bit that no one's got a handle on i heard you know they're developing a car battery that can go thousands of miles after one charge well that's going to talk discussions about ev charging will be very different discussions if you've got that technological uh capability uh on our streets how long is that going to be i heard four years four to five years that it's already in train so should we spend you know lots of money expanding our national grid you know to plug in thousands and thousands of cars um when that technology is is on the horizon and these are all really difficult calls for organizations to make who have really good intentions and and you know good high levels of aspiration so that they're just my views um chair thank you no i think your views are very important as you said you sit at the top so the box stops with you so i think it's important for us to hear that coming from you um do members any other question for it's not a question obviously you know i want to um conclude this by saying that um when we um set out the ambitions with the carbon neutral plan it didn't come with some big budgets um um it was saying go and look within the departments to see what you can do to achieve these goals and i am very very proud to look at the achievements that we've made in the circumstances that we find ourselves in um i think we've done a jolly good job and i i would just have to say thank you a big thank you to the officers for the work that they have done i think we all echo that i think it's um it's a difficult conversation but so important as well um and i think one thing i would say there's a lot of talk about um the delivery the actions um what's important is the finances because everything we need money um and there's a challenge across our budget is already tight we're having to tighten our belts in different areas so i think being realistic as well um yes we do have the targets but then we have to be reasonable and measured and try to balance that with the needs of the community i think while messaging could be better in terms of the uh climate um uh updates in terms of where we are to the wider public i think the residents would really benefit from um hearing or for us to celebrate some of the successes as well because i think we've done quite a lot but that's that hasn't filtered down in the community so maybe um that's something as cabinet members and officers when you're sending information out is to try and deliver that message across uh the borough yeah i think that would be yeah um i think that's it really i will i didn't capture all the recommendations so i don't know if you can help me with what we've got please the list of recommendations can we review it after the meeting i've got it all in my notes i'll circulate it to the panel okay brilliant and um we'll check sorry chair did we include in the recommendations um the annual targets identified for each uh year so we haven't when we receive reports then we know exactly each target where it is and where it's where it's moving to i don't think we need to check about a number of uh social housing in bromley i think they may have two or three they may have a few more i'm not sure we'll circulate the um recommendations we'll look at it and feedback let me know if there's anything that was mentioned that's been missed just want to say thank you all for giving up your evening debbie thank you for coming um it's good to it's it's it's a delight actually to see you at this meeting show how important uh we are as a council towards meeting our target it's difficult um but yeah i think this evening it's good to hear what's happening thank you very much um item number six uh item number six sorry the meeting's not yet finished uh forward plan uh it's finished for the officers not for members item number six the last one uh the forward plan so this is just for us to note the um upcoming executive decisions set out in the forward plan uh for the period of november to february 2025 um and that's in appendix one and for us to determine if there's any item that we need to bring back for scrutiny noted thank you um that's the end of the meeting thank you