Transcript

Welcome back after that break. So we're moving on now to the six hour agenda, which is full planning commission, the direction of the potato store and chicken coop, direction effective that lands the South West currently pertinent better rest of them. This is application 2024 points. Now, we have to be late request to speak from the planning agent, Dr. Mr. Mr. Mark. I have accepted this late request to speak. Can I ask if we are happy to hear from Mr. Middlebury? Great. Thank you very much. Can I invite you, as I said previously, just a quick to come and sit at the table. We'll go through the same process, Mark. We'd like Gregor to introduce the planning application. We'll have questions to grab them. That's complete. I'll point to yourself when you have five minutes to make your case for the application. We'll have an opportunity to put questions to you. You're welcome to say until the end, we ask that you don't speak further. Okay. Thank you very much, Edie. So Mr. Spencer, Gregor, you could take us through the application. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. So, yes, as you mentioned, I feel like we should start going to have to speak briefly since it's on a building that we've bought on a table. So, let's take a look at what's currently coming to the better. So, and same area is located to the Southern extent of the conservation area, better. So, that can land area, it's been outlined in blue at the land ownership, which is some of the samples between the cotton water and the railway line, which stands to fuel boundary from the to the west. And essentially, it's safe area, and it all extends to the public road as we require for planning applications to actually focus around the direction of this building here, to each sort of extent of the land ownership. And what this actually now is a timber structure, timber building, a measure of scroll is larger than a per 10 metres by six metres. And this broken into a couple of elements here and then to stay on three or five metres, that's what she wants to look to check in each group with a touch check and run. And we can also look at the context of the area that our existing shapes, then keep it opposite to this building. You hear this place through a actual guide throughout the building, which is a one-pitch roof, timber flat building, we're going to do the door opening. So, as I mentioned, this is the door floor plan, so they broken by this element that's backwards in the bottom of the chicken coop. And essentially, it's a nice feeling to be able to do this in this building. And again, this slide just extends to the configuration area, the construction area, just to show that the site straddle is the boundary. So, this is within the construction area, more important on the daily edge of the construction area here, the construction area. So, I'm looking at some of the sites that we'll do have to put there. This is a view just looking towards the site area, the site access across the cabin water area, and the relationship from the site back towards the drilling dwellings, and the mass of the development, they cut the best rest, slightly separately. As the construction area has developed, it keeps us out towards the site towards the cabin water and the railway line. For lack of obvious reasons, cases that were quite close to the bottom here, for the river study. And again, it's a view from the edge of the existing site, and I'm going to get a little view of the building. So, here we go. So, this is the building here on the left-hand side of the top photograph. You can see it does run onto existing shapes that are located on the site. We have an idea of the form of the building, and the nature of the building, and it's an indication with the design and ownership extending from it to the east, beyond the building here, and again, a view of the building of the frontage. And so, it's representative of the building areas, and there's engaged forms of completion. And we know as there are internal fixings within the building, certain elements of the storage, and it's the kitchen cavity, etc. And the data is a joy in our sort of the elements of the building, how it's been chosen in forms, as a result of the problems available to them, which is entirely justifiable. And obviously, on the site, there was around three years before, but essentially, the button service is this concern to regard to the other one would be the actual world character of the building, which we feel is somewhat suburban, and it's nature, and prospect values for the use of a potato shed, the table store. And whilst we are happy to see high quality buildings come forward, though we should also be appropriate for the location and the use of the function. And in this case, we will not have the convince in the building. It fits the function in the building, and essentially, therefore, towards the eye, and it becomes a bit of an eye-sewamistication. It's fair to note that the land is under that concern, it's not part of the garden ground building, I swear, it's still given to my understanding. So, it's not that I'm suddenly building, it is a building on what it's essentially, which is called the area of land use, although it's my understanding that you have to cultural build the number to be put forward to show the part of our viable and cultural unit. The second previous for a future relates to the building's location and its relationship with conservation area, the current fair vessel. We know that there are other buildings dotted around this area, however, the conservation area plays all notes that actually, in one of the challenges that the conservation area is this sporadic introduction of modern buildings that don't be the character of the conservation area, and ultimately, we therefore have a Dutch mental impact on the conservation area. It is noted in section 4 of the report that the buildings have been built and checked for the proposal, and on consideration of all the aspects here, the planning setting has been set up to the building in both parts. The Dutch mental impact on the character, the rural character, it's part of the current fair vessel conservation area, and that's part of the reason for refusal. So, essentially, the planning status has made the refusal of the application, the conclusion of the report clarifies is how the building has been erected on the site, the message in nature, and not considered yet fully to the intended use of story because of some of the crocs, and all of us, the teams on the residential garden, all into some extent. And on these grounds, planning status, there's nothing to support that patient in this instance. We have to accept any please or questions from members in that regard. Councillor Black. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Greg, for the presentation. Can I just clarify, I can't find it in the report now, or whether it was in the application itself, that there was previously a building on this site, and what was the nature of that building? Thank you. Councillor, I'm not sure what's been put on the support of that. It's opposite the building, but I don't have any information to respond to that, or any building was catered on this specific part of the site. There was actually a photograph in the conservation area, the appraisal, the use of lots of site, and I can't see any of it in some of the building, and that time, if there's only 18, and so it may have been prior to this, but I don't know how to include information. Okay, thank you. Councillor interjecting. I'm sorry, I think I just checked you again. [inaudible] Yes. [inaudible] Thank you. Are there any other questions? Yes, Councillor, I believe. Yes, Councillor interjecting. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible]

Transcript

Ok, again, welcome back everybody, we're going to give that first degree. We now want to invite you to the 7th of our agenda, which is the draft heating policy. And we have Mr. Insane McDowell with us this morning, the senior energy manager to present that. So if I can invite you to, so the report comes to you. Brilliant. Thank you very much. Good morning, everyone. As I said, I'm Sandi McDowell, senior energy manager with property engineering. Thank you for welcoming me here today to address any questions or comments you have on the draft heating policy that has been circulated. We're presenting the policy in line with the policy development review framework, we presented to all six area committees and to business services committee in June. The draft policy has already been made available to the senior leadership team in March and they noted their support of the proposed policy, the draft policy has also been made available to the trade unions and their comments have been incorporated. To give you some background, as part of the carbon budget process, business services has been set with a target of 1,600 tons of carbon to be reduced. So the development and implementation of this heating policy was identified as one of many things that we can do to help us meet this target. It has the particular benefit of being low capital cost and it's really designed to improve the operational efficiency of buildings irrespective of their inherent kind of built efficiency. It builds on previous energy efficiency guidance that has been issued previously by the team. And really, it's intended to formalise behaviours that sites should already be following. So in the majority of cases, we're not actually anticipating that there will be much change. This policy is in line with official policies that are being implemented by other local authorities around Scotland, but we have obviously written it with the particular characteristics of the Aberdeenshire operational portfolio in mind. The intention is really to ensure that ownership of heating control is taken at a site level and the sites are engaged with the decisions around the schedules and settings and their escalation points should they not be able to meet the suggested temperatures are clear and unambiguous and fundamentally the sites are encouraged to engage with ensuring the settings are correct. It's hoped that a successful implementation will realise approximately 900 tons of carbon saved within 24/25 and the same amount again in 25/26. So with that in mind, I would welcome any questions or comments that the committee may have. Thank you.

Thank you very much for the introduction, Ms McDowell. So we're being asked within the recommendation to consider a comment on the progress of the development and implementation of the proposed council heating policy and then specifically to provide comments on the draft heating policy document and that will go to business services committee as our feedback to them. So, could I ask if there are any comments, questions, comments to read down? I'm not seeing any comments at the moment, I'm both Councillor and Councillor and Councillor Assembly. I'm attempting to not go first. I was wondering, why is there a heating season when we just have a bit of maximum temperatures? So yes, and this is a bit of a, to tie in with the kind of the historic way things have been done normally. So that's largely driven by education. They have historically always operated to a fairly fixed heating season which would typically be heating is turned off on the second Monday in May, and then heating gets turned back on on the second Monday in September. Once you get into this time of year, kind of late April, early May, depending on the weather, it can be much hotter than average or colder than average. So there's always a little bit of kind of overlap between the two, just depending. Some sites manage that well, some not so well. And again, those sites that are remotely controlled by my team. We attempt to manage that well, but again, we rely critically on feedback from the sites to know if they're too hot or too cold. So we deliberately wrote the policy as well without including those specific dates to allow for there to be future adjustment in when heating season is deemed to start or finish. Really what it's about is making it clear when it would be accepted that heating can be on unambiguously and when it shouldn't be on unambiguously. That gives a starting point around which to build necessary exceptions where they're required. I might miss device, but we see anything about monitoring the temperature, especially large buildings like secondary schools. Is there any plan to make sure it doesn't be monitored in every classroom? It's dependent on the site and it needs to be site led as well. So for example, if we take the large secondary schools, they are predominantly controlled by ourselves using complex BMS systems. So the monitoring is done by the system. So we will set it to operate to maintain an internal space of 21 degrees. The system should maintain that. Now what we then can't see is if there are areas that don't have a sensor in them, whether they're too hot or too cold. So we would then rely on the site to interact with ourselves or their maintenance teams depending to ensure that any changes are made to make sure that the temperatures are as required. Where sites don't have thermometers, yes, we would expect them to obtain them to be able to do monitoring to ensure that the systems are running correctly. We should bear in mind that any heating system should have an integrated thermostat in it to ultimately give you an element of control. But if I use view mount as the example, we've got two sensors in the entire building. And that's supposed to cover all the areas and the upstairs and the downstairs. It doesn't give us enough coverage for the automatic control, so we very much rely on feedback from the facilities team to make any changes. But that's very specific to remotely controlled buildings. Buildings that don't have the remote heating control need to manage that themselves. Is there any budget you know is relevant in getting temperature sensors in the places that we need? What is it? Just building those out with sounds. Yeah, and it's a bit chicken and egg and you almost need to know which buildings aren't able to control themselves before you can then target where to put the investment. So some buildings we know operate very well. They're well behaved from a thermal perspective. Others aren't. And until you kind of get people to follow a standardized policy, it's very difficult to know whether overheating is a result of poor interaction with the heating system, i.e. running schedules too long and set points too high, or whether it's because the system is inherently not fit for maintaining temperature well in that building. So the policy is almost a starting point to flush out problems that we maybe can't see on our assumed to be behavioural. Okay. Just to clarify Councillor Sullivan in terms of whether or not, because we're providing the comments to tend to be back to visit services, I sort of picked up what could be a comment there around a concern around the monitoring particularly passing long control buildings. Do you want that to flush out the second sign? Yes, they specifically, because they do tend to get too hot in certain places and then the teachers will open the window, which is basically just sending the heat out into the atmosphere. So more temperature monitoring, I think. In essence, we'll be interested to see how this does flat out any issues going forward in winter. Yes. Sorry, I can just say that's a great example, because the intention of the policy is to encourage that internal feedback, because the first step should be to look at the heating settings to allow the windows to be closed without the space overheating before then, because again, whether a room is too hot or not, you don't need a thermometer to know that you feel too hot. So if you feel too hot, you should be reporting that in line with the policy. Thank you very much. So I have a couple of questions and comments. The first one relates to within the policy itself at 5.3, and if you are not seeing exception management for debt with supports and community centers, if there is a need for a specific purpose to have exceptions to four hours, and that there'd be a change request for them. I mean, the process is clear. I just wondered whether there was the capacity to handle it, because it's after every external met that might occur. No, so it gets very complex very quickly. So I think most buildings that have lets regularly already have a mechanism by which they can apply heating as required, things like they have a boost button to you press it and it gives you two hours extra. So in the majority of cases, that it should be fairly easy to control within the existing kind of processes, but the exception is rule is more about buildings that permanently need something different. So you may have a care environment that requires a slightly higher than a greed temperature, and that would be one where really what we're asking is for rather than sight to just go ahead and whack the heating up, they need to consider and engage the best way to do that to ensure that it's done with minimum waste. Thank you very much. At a further point, around 7.1, this release, it's underlinging the exclusions, and it says, While I recommend it swing, the cool temperatures are identified in table one, I go back to table one, which is a few pages out on the page 41, I'm looking at heat levels by building the tight, I'm not looking at pool temperatures when it comes to the sports centre in the pool area, area, not pool. It says, 28 seats a bit, so you don't have to worry about it. There's a lack of clarity there that needs to be addressed. Yeah, noted, I think we just need to include pool hall rather than pool temperature just to make that difference absolutely clear, so yes, take that on board. Thank you very much. And then, I guess my final question relates to the integrated impact assessment and this sometimes, I wonder if I need to sound comfortable climbing, but when it comes to the impact of this policy, there would without a doubt be impact on people with protective characteristics if it was not managed carefully, so an older person, a younger person, a person with disability would be impacted, if the temperature in the building is not right, I'll take a specific example because it's one that's very close to home for me, of some of the spinal cord injury who might be using one of our buildings who has zero temperature control, they cannot themselves manage temperature control, so it's very important that the early environment does that for them, and it's not a doubt to expect the impact assessment to pick up that one example, which is really surprising, but we don't take yes that there could be an impact here, because it would not impact me the same way, you know, it is completely different for something of that particular condition, so I was just wondering in terms of the impact assessment why it's only picked up on the sustainability benefits, I know that's a question because I can come to you and say, My name is anything on differently and longer, picked up, but it's not covered here. Yeah, so I wasn't involved in preparing the impact assessment, that was Ian Wiley, so I can't speak to the direct rationale, but I think coming back to my previous comment about exceptions, so there's a couple of things, so first of all, the policy is really intended to tackle energy waste, heat waste, so that's where schedules are on outside of a normal building occupation, when the set points are so high that you're having to open windows to manage the temperature, that is really what the policy is intended to tackle. If a building isn't too hot, and I say that on the basis our table is a guide, but the actual setting for that building ultimately is defined by the people that work there and the purpose it's needed for, so if you have a building, as I said, that has, if we take one of our special schools, St Andrews as an example, they would say, Okay, actually do you know what? We need it to be 24 degrees every day. Now, that's an exception to the guidelines and the policies, so we would expect them to kind of speak to us and say, Look, we need to have it hotter, so we are going to do that and we're not going to stop them, but the point is we're getting them to do it consciously so that they understand, Okay, you're running hotter than normal, it means you're going to be more subject to things like solar gain. So do you need to take extra steps to know how to manage that? There's an element of perhaps training involved so that they can interact with their heating system to turn it down if they discover that actually they are too hot in certain circumstances. So on that basis, the policy is flexible enough to really account for any kind of operational requirement, and as such, there shouldn't be an impact. So it's another way of looking at it. I totally get what you're saying is that if we didn't have, if the policy wasn't able to tackle it, then there would be an impact, but we believe that the policy has taken account of the need so there is no impact. I accept that there is going to be no impact because of the way policy is been driven, but I would have expected that to have simply been, I would still expect to somehow see this in the impact assessment because if it was not covered and it could easily not be covered, the mitigation might not be there, there would be that impact. So for me, it just jars that it's not there equally, there's a question within the impact assessment about whether or not this is strategic importance. For me, there's some strategic importance because this is looking directly to the Council's group map in order to literally target 2030 and then ultimately, 2045 beyond when we get to that sort of net zero in the long term. This is about carbon reduction, really welcoming, very much welcoming, but I find for myself that the impact assessment is lacking in this regard. I would have expected to see yes, this is a strategic importance, and yes, this could have a differential impact, but actually it's a quick response that this is mitigated for, this is mitigated for, through having enough flexibility within the policy. So that would be my, I guess, my feedback, would be a comment that personally I would like to have picked up when the time comes for the services. I'll leave it there, this will be done for my department and I'll let you say it, Mr. Councillor interjecting. Thanks, Councillor, for your presentation, let's just want to please go up to, or for the good idea, to have energy champions embedded across the piece. I think I'll get quite sad in my old age because in my work, I'll go round the five o'clock, I'll go round the corridors, I'll go round the classrooms, and you will be amazed at the number of classrooms for people to walk out, lights, fully switched or windows wide open. And at this time of year, when it's very cold, I just think that's a cool, and we're basically just keeping our parks and the way that we're environment, and that's a pretty night. That's, that's working over drive all weekend as well, unless it's controlled to stay in the park. So, so I think we should talk environmental champions, it will aim to ensure that common senses, prevalent and different questions will be well that we have adequate janitors that, you know, are invaded in the system so that they are within the day to make new classrooms secure at the end of the working day, because it's just a common sense and just, you know, ensuring that we are working efficiently is really important. And some of the things, even just emotional sense, are lighted is actually a good idea whereby large areas, you know, nobody's moving or there's no need for lighting to be left on, and it also mindfully switches off. So, some of these systems are actually really good at saving energy, just want to put a barrier on some of these things, but certainly the energy champions might be something. So, so with regards to energy champions, we don't have energy champions, but sustainability do have sustainability champions. So, this program will fit into that. So, a member of my team is, is one of those champions, so is involved with the, what that group do. We've also got, you've got the responsible premises officer, which I believe you will all been made aware of previously. So, the, the responsibility for implementation of the heating policy would in the first instance be intended to fall under the responsibility of that individual. They do, they would have formally that responsibility for ensuring things are turned off, turned down, are the right schedules, set points, etc. We're also working with the transformation team, we're just starting up conversations with them and that's, that's very much looking at the implementation plan. So, who's doing what, how it's communicated, and that's, that's going to be something that will develop over the next few months and will, will form part of the implementation plan, but I think the key thing is, really the heating policy should be everyone's responsibility, just like health and safety, just like, you know, using the right recycling bin. It should be something everyone is aware of, and everyone should take action on, even if that action is limited to someone flagging up an issue to the person that is responsible for ensuring a change is made. So, there are, there are many, many threads to it. We are trying to leverage all of them to, to get as much uptake as possible, and that is something that we'll be developing over the next few months. With a view to the light sensors, this policy is intended to be stand alone and to work with whatever a building has. So, if a building doesn't have light sensors, then it's very much placing the onus on people to, to turn switches on and off. That's more energy than heat, but they're sort of interchangeable. However, really what, as I said, we're trying to flush out the buildings that really do have problems, and that's where then we can target the capital investment. And it'll take us a year or two to probably identify where those opportunities really are. And that will hopefully coincide with a bit more capital being available to actually spend on, on these upgrades. That's one of the two, I think. Yeah, thank you. I just clarify, though, would you like there to be any comments about engaging the sustainability champions as a, make sure that the sustainability champions all are aware of it. Yes, and I think every building, every substantial building shoots, shoots off, you know, ticks and flakes. And maybe more than one, because there, you know, we have absences and all the days and so on, at least to continue the analysis of one individual. So, and at that point, you say it's really responsibility, but potentially, it's very easy to see energy being wasted, because we'll not just see it to the basics, and to fill it with, and just ensure that things are switched off. Absolutely. Thank you, um, to me, to Councilor Turner, Ellen. Yeah, thank you, Chair. Portable heaters, I look at what's in here. When I read the policy, I think mainly this is, we're talking central heating, that's the analogy. It's a central heating system for the building, whether it's sensors, whether it has radiators, storage heaters, etc. But, you know, my own past experience, I'm used to seeing portable heaters to heat rooms, so we don't maybe have sufficient radiators, etc. And we simply don't, it's easier to portable heater it to the room that actually has to upgrade pipe or current it. Find the policy, the way I'm reading it here. Portable heaters are only being considered, should that the central heating system for the building fail. That is correct. That is correct, because where you have complex BMS systems, you can often find that portable heating systems interfere. A great example is actually view mounts. That system, someone had a portable heater running in one of the two offices that had a sensor, so the system sees the heat coming off that portable heater, thinks the building's nice and warm and it turns off the boilers. So, the use of portable heaters, we're not saying it should never be used, but it's a last resort. So, and again, you need to go through a process of actually establishing that a portable heater is appropriate in that space. If it's then put in, the expectation is that that heater would then be managed in line with the policy. But there are many, many steps that really should be gone through first before a portable heater is just put in a space. Okay, no, because normally I'd say almost still the way that a portable heater in, because the existing system can't provide enough heat, you know, for that time of the year, there's the supplementing. Totally accept the example you've given in terms of as a sensor of triggers the, you know, the rest of the building. But it's just more, I can't just used to be going into old buildings with all the small offices and inevitably, there's lots of little portable heaters sitting under desks, which shouldn't be. Well, there shouldn't be, but it's, how can you put it? And that in some respects is an easier solution than in some cases, to put in all the radiators through a building. So, I'm just curious just to have you look at these sort of things. It comes back to you need people to adhere to the policy to almost identify where you've got the hardware problems. So, if you've got a system where, you know, 90% of the buildings heating up fine and you've got one room where the radiators are stone cold, that's a maintenance issue. That needs someone to go in and have a look at the valves on that radiator and repair them. That just doesn't get done if people just put a portable heater in and forget about it. So, it's encouraging people to follow the policy and in theory, you should actually gradually over time get to an improvement in the quality and maintenance of the estate, because people will have a better route to identify and flag maintenance issues with the heating systems. Once you've done that, you can then see the areas that are under provided and provide alternative technical solutions. Thank you, Chair. I'd like to follow up with something that Council far mentioned and that was having to go around Friday night studying things off. Is there a trend or an identifiable trend of people in our buildings not taking responsibility for being blast out and saving money there for? And if so, would you be having to run some sort of campaign by putting stickers by every people like switch that you'd be switched on turn it off? And my second part of that question is, in our larger buildings that are not used at weekends, do we have a five to heating control? And if so, how many, you know, what percentage is that increasing so that we do save money at the weekends? Thank you. Yes. So, generally speaking, the larger buildings, the big offices would hill house, fucking house, view mount, et cetera, large academies, large primary schools typically run on centrally controlled BMS systems. Those schedules are typically pretty good. My team stay on top of them, review them periodically. You then got a level of buildings that have standalone BMS controls, building management systems. These have complex controllability, but there is possibly a knowledge gap with how well they are used at site. And, you know, some are operated very, very well, some less so. And then you could down a level again to something that has a, for one of a better phrase, a glorified domestic system. You know, it'll have a similar sort of maybe seven day controller like you would in a house. Again, they tend to lack the finesse of control and maybe don't get interacted with enough to ensure that they're set to the appropriate schedule. Very, very few of our buildings have a straight on off system that doesn't have some sort of timer control. This does typically remove the issues around heating being left on at the weekend, but I'd be lying if I said we weren't aware of anecdotal cases where things are left on, you know, so that it's nice and toasty warm first thing on a Monday morning. And that is fundamentally the type of behavior that we're seeking to move away from. I'm sorry, I think there was a second part to the question. I've maybe not tackled there. About the campaign potentially. Yes, sorry, yes, that's very much part of the conversation we're going to be having with the transformation team as to as to what they think the best way will be to do that. They are, they've committed to being able to provide a some resource as well to support that. But exactly what that will look like we've yet to fully settle on. But it'll be multi-faceted. But fundamentally, what we are literally encouraging is anyone who cares. Does that be yourselves or all senior managers? If you walk into a building, any council building and it's too hot, we would expect you just to kind of, you know, have a quick chat with whoever's most senior person there and say, look, it's a bit hot. That's not in line with the policy. Do you want to maybe get whoever's responsible to go and take action? And it's just that gentle encouragement. You know, we're not having a go. We're not criticizing. It's just reminding people there is a policy and there's an expectation that it's followed. And the more that the more senior people that do that, the more senior managers that do that, the more counselors that do that, the more likely people are to take action. So that's that in my view is going to be the easiest way to get people to act. Thank you. Thanks for liking. Yeah, and give you a take. If you could put a car, you'd sort of, when I put up, we'd be down with the heat in down every day and then we wouldn't help anybody else. I mean, there's an idea that the white is here to snap because this is comfortable, very comfortable. It's not too hot, not too cold. The other thing I was going to ask, I mean, what's the, what the wattage of everybody's person is? There's a lot of people who have to become. Yes, so as a rule of thumb, we refer to each individual as being equivalent to a one bar heater. It's very, you know, very rough and ready, but but buildings are actually designed with that in mind. So they'll look at the occupancy levels and the heating will be sized, assuming that there are a certain number of people in there. It should be designed to compensate when they're not and this comes back to the thermostatic control. So again, if you have a lot of people congregated in the area where the sensor is, that may result in other parts of the building running a little colder. But in theory, that should have been accounted for in the design. In practice, we don't necessarily know where issues like that are. That is, again, that's part of what the policy is intended to identify. Good adherence shows you the areas that are problematic. The other thing is, portable heaters. And I'm reading to you, I don't know if you've checked your insurance policy, but most commercial buildings, there is one question, do you just put a heater? If you say, yeah, look at it. You know, you might like to but in an emergency, of course, it's all right. But that's another point, you should be careful. So I'm glad you've said that because I don't say any maybe the energy management view is they should not be used unless there are exceptional circumstances. Thanks. Thanks. Okay. Thanks for Sir Foggs. Yeah, thank you. And thank you for the thank you for the report. I've really welcomed it before, in terms of attempts to actually resume staff and book print. Well, you've mentioned you touched on working with the transformational team, and when the elements are binding the report, and you may be because the record and leave in two policies to deal with system use of gas and electricity, traditional use of gas and electricity. I just wondered where this fits within the sort of water transformational aspect of thinking about using or reducing energy and eating by tapping into a solar panel or some range of other system, or renewable energy sources. I don't see any back in this policy, and that might be a fair comment, you know, the policies, what the use of the environment, what would be useful to have some sort of reference, perhaps in. Thank you. Yeah, so I think fundamentally the policy is designed to be standalone irrespective of the building, but a brand new building built to the best standards versus our worst kind of, you know, highly drafty, poorly heated old kind of 150 year old granite buildings. So we took a deliberate decision to not mention decarbonization of hardware. Yes, there is a significant program within property that's looking at the opportunities, you know, the new office in Ellen's being built to a passive house informed standard. The new academy in Peterhead is going to be a full certified passive house building, so they're built to phenomenally high kind of energy efficiency standards compared to, you know, buildings that were built even kind of five or 10 years ago. You know, we have other projects as well looking at solar panels, replacing existing fossil fuel systems with air source heat pumps. So there's a huge body of work that is going on within property that is tackling that side of the equation. But fundamentally, the behavior of individuals in a building should not matter whether they have an efficient system or not. They can still be run to a tight schedule. They should still be avoiding overheating. So the policy needs to stand alone to drive the behavior. And then that good adherence to the policy then shows you where almost your biggest weaknesses are in terms of your fabric and your hardware. Yeah, thank you very much. That's right, your hand is up until it's a layout tape. Okay, I'm not seeing any further hands. So coming back to our recommendations, you're considering comments on the progress of development and implementation of the proposed proposal for our major council meeting policy. Generally, hearing that we're welcoming the direction of travel here. And then to provide comments on the drought, Keaton policy documents for business services committee. So, I'll run through the things that were saying with the missing officer and I think that was said thing. And can I just have the committee's agreement? This is these are the comments that we would like to meet. So the first one was for the Council of Sullivan around, I think although you responded, sadly, to the concern around volunteering in non-remote control buildings and specifically schools. Just, you know, that was something that you wanted to make sure that I was kept on it. Then, and there was some point one, how we refer to the pool temperature and the area around the pool, which you will pick up. Clarify. I have a certain, I don't know if my colleagues share it, around the way the integration tactics that have been put together in some nodding heads. So we'll include those on it. I'm picking up from Council across the comments that I think we would like to see that, definitely that engagement, we would support that engagement, they're doing the champions and really driving that Council-wide engagement with this, that everyone sees it as their responsibility. And then when it comes to, and again, I think we support the campaign to drive a heap, to drive a heap, your change more generally, whatever your transformation team comes up, we think it's important to be following that. We had a point about affordable heaters and churns, so just recognizing that that's something we need to be mindful of as a Council. And then, finally, I wonder picking up Council's stop boxes point, whether or not when this comes to business services, perhaps there could be a bit more explanation in that cover report about why we've been not addressing the deprotonization of hardware here, just for that clarity. I think that would be a way of addressing the concern that race, they are understanding that this is kind of an interesting question. That's good. Now, when we have an interface of impact assessment, it's my intention, going forward, that as we agree the recommendations that we will, just temporarily clarify that we are mindful of it. So before we move to agreeing recommendations, can we be assured that the integrated impact assessment has been taken into account in our deliberations? Unless I hear otherwise and assume that we have all taken account of that as we have provided our comments and that effectively we have to charge the recommendations for us. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, it's fine. I'm thinking it's, it's so inspiring. This is focused on key tech. Okay. What I hear what you're saying, Council, well, it's absent terms of the building efficiencies and everything, but what is not part of this policy, it's clearly spelled out, is hot water. You need energy to heat the hot water. So to me, if you get it to a point in terms of thinking the building that we're looking at the screen policy, the actual efficiency of the building in terms of how it's actually powered, we'd apply all of those policies. And I'm just not sure where we'd actually get it. If we looked at it specifically in terms of heating, when you're having good things in like lighting and also, and what what? I think if I'm understanding you correctly, I think in terms of the comment to this of services or the comment that we're making here, which really just that we need a bit more clarity around why it is narrow down to just heating policy. My understanding this would be that within the carbon budget, with limited financing, this is a fundamental change that can be made within the resources that have to deliver a very substantial carbon production at the same time delivering savings, financial savings, which are given as 700,000 pounds if we were to do this. So, the heating policy can stand alone. And I'm speaking for you possibly, standard apologies, but all I was trying to think of, I think from Councillor Stilff's comments was that it probably would be helpful to just have that a bit clearer and cover report as to why this is drafted the way it is assumed, emphasizing effectively behavior change, how we manage the heating level. I totally care if I'm heating, but it's part of what percentage of heating being powered by the source risk versus the lighting for the building, which is all the energy usage and providing all that, et cetera. I don't think we can get to the moving detail, or widely get to the detail, I think, you have asked me just my view on it. I'm open to the feedback, we're probably starting along that line, so I'm not going to get that this is building's efficiency, just not heating. No, I'm going to keep that in addition here. I'm going to give you that. Sandi, you'd like to speak to it. Yeah, if I could just address a couple of points, heating accounts for about 80% of a typical building's energy load, so it is by far the biggest slice of the pie by quite some way, so it's the biggest opportunity. To address the reason hot water was deliberately emitted from the policy in some ways is because we've got very onerous legionella control regulations that are well adhered to. Actually, because of those, we don't really have any scope to adjust the temperature of hot water. Hot water is also required fundamentally different hours that slightly contrary to the heating policy. That said, the same issue was raised that the Geary Committee, I think it was, so we have taken on board that we need to just look at how that's framed, but the only real opportunity around hot water is ensuring that the schedule is tight as possible, but actually because of the heating and hot water control tends to be through the same control panel, essentially kind of fixing one forces the individual that's doing it to address the other at the same time. We're kind of hoping that I'll just fall out of this naturally, but certainly we are going to look at just how it's framed within the context of the policy. In terms of Council's doubt box story and briefly, it's certainly you don't want to think. Yeah, I'm noticing. Sorry, yes, but it's the one I wrote earlier on. My point is it's missed opportunities and I don't know if it's involved. I mean, a very narrow leading term to 18, and I recognise that, you know, focusing on 18, we came out some quick games, but my concern is is that the expense of moving further and faster in terms of transforming our state into in terms of more sustainable buildings, but what I heard from the opposite is this policy, it's applicable to new schools or passive services, passive schools, passive buildings, but I do think that we need to be considered not in a cycle. I think it's really dangerous, the danger is that this is where we deal with things, this cycle. I think we're getting back into this so I don't know how it seems to deal with and to meet. And I think it's a broad picture and I can say that that reference that board picture, that was my concern, that wasn't referenced here. So that's something that you don't know how to think. Are you wanting to come back in? I'm just fine. I mean, the subject mind is the policy, right? And very, if you go too far on that, get into individual buildings, which means a different mind. It's the policy, it's going to bring all the buildings down to just how poor they have to be or cold for that matter, versus their usage. That's the key, but I believe in this policy, okay? As opposed to going into how efficient necessarily the building is, that's a set of things. I totally get it, but our new buildings, we build them to be efficient. And it's the scope of the estate is so wide, the council's got, I think you get into some cases of individual building assessments, which is a different policy. Yes, this is, this is, I would argue this is driving behavior change in terms of ensuring that we're meeting a standard, which is appropriate right away across the estate, that as exceptions arise, if you stick to the process, it's whatever. Other issues may well be flushed out and identified for needing a job sooner rather than others. But the root map to 2013 is where a lot of them wider, discovering around what needs to be done to make our estate energy efficient will be occurring. You know, it's not that that thinking isn't going on, there are a piece of ability studies going on, looking at these issues. It's just, this heating policy has a benefit in its own right here and down and can be delivered here and now, which is, which is positive. So when come back to the regulations, I'm really with satisfied with this. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you very much, Sandy, if you're trying this morning. Thank you very much. So we'll move now to item eight, which is the donations policy and we have the Carolyn Watt with us, the strategic finance manager, who's going to introduce the report. That's this one. Thank you. Hello, Carolyn. Hi. Morning. Sorry, afternoon, everyone. Thanks to you. You have before you today our draft of the Council's donations policy for consideration and comment. In accordance with policy development and review framework, all the committees are being asked to consider and comment on this policy before it's finalized and presented to Business Services Committee for approval in June. This is something that was initially raised through an internal audit and report where strategic finance were recommended to review and update, a briefing note on donations in order to ensure a consistent and transparent treatment across the Council. We've also included in the paper a copy of the accompanying donations, operational procedures for members reference. The policy has been developed with input from finance, legal and also live life, Aberdeenshire. And as part of that consultation, it was noted that there's already a policy in place within LLE for managing head of picture materials as part of the Council's collection within its museum services. So just to clarify that the draft nation's policy in front of you today has been developed to complement that the museum services policy and doesn't replace that. And this policy is really focusing on dealing with cash donations. A donation can take various forms and it can come through lots of different methods including online, in-person, regular giving and gifting our legacy and the timing and amount can vary. So it's important to have that clear policy and please support it by procedures to ensure that they're all accounted for on a consistent and compatible basis. And also it pulls managing the risks to the Council. The detailed operational procedures have been developed which include the need for a donations register which will be maintained and annual reporting on the donations received and how they have been spent. The policy also sets out some general principles around the acceptance of donations along with some specific instances where the Council must or may need to refuse donations offered. I'll stop there and open up for any comments or questions anyone has. Thank you very much for that introduction. So just to remind members that we're being asked to consider a comment on the draft nation's policy and that we are being asked in looking at the impact of donations, operational procedures, documents, and we're going to show that questions that those could be addressed. So Councilor Edison, Alison. Thank you Chair. A couple of questions please Carolyn. The first one, does the policy cover donations to schools? Yes, yeah we can cover everything aimed to make sure that those funds are being fenced for schools. So if a donation was received by a school or raised by sort of people and teacher association that would be captured within that. Okay I'm just trying to develop that then. I was thinking about donations to individual schools and thinking maybe there'd be value in having a separate section of that highlighted schools could get financial donations in all different kinds of ways. There could be quite small donations or they could be quite large. There could be individuals from parents or they could be from companies wanting to give money for a particular aspect of the curriculum. So it might be valuable developing a section on how that would apply to a school and meeting the school's aims because that would be different from the overall section I think for the Council as a whole and it would be on a very localised level. So I would suggest a separate section on donations to schools would be beneficial and add to the clarity of it. My second question is I noticed there's a section about political donations and obviously we don't want those. Is there also a case for something equally prominent about donations that maybe don't fit with the values of the Council? I know that's inferred throughout the document but it's not put in your face on that one as well. I remember a case a few years ago where there was a discussion in a local ward about whether donations should be accepted from someone involved in slave trade and that kind of thing and so I wanted to do it as useful as well because that's not directly political but it is value-based and I wanted to do it as useful to having a special highlighted section on issues like that. Yeah, you're happy in terms of the schools point. That's the good point. We can have a look and try and incorporate something on that. On the values, that is something that we did consider when we were drafting the policy and we went down the road of making it linked with the strategic objectives and priorities of the Council because they were defined somewhere because the value user may be less, so it wasn't as obvious but yeah, that's something I could take away and have a look to see how we could just incorporate that as well. Sorry, just a suggestion Chair, maybe a link it to the Equality's legislation then as well as that. I thank you, just a couple suggestions there, thank you. Thank you. Yes, thank you. I guess I'm coming from a similar place, slightly, as Councillor Ossohn, I expect on that last point. I mean, I was struck that in terms of the cover report at 5.5, we identified a risk around reputation and movement including social media and yet, as I read the donations policy, I didn't really feel that that was picked up or addressed, we know there's a risk there, but it's kind of not met head-on. The point about Alison's just made, Councillor Anderson's just made, might well address my concern there, but I felt that there were various points, and you could look them up later, that 4.2, 5.3, 5.10 in the actual policy, reputation came to mind and yet it's kind of not referenced. So, I would welcome more consideration of that, and it could be sufficient, but if we're trying to talk to one of the Council's values, then we make sure that we're going to make sure that it's not referenced in the integration that we might accept. Yeah, that's a good point. We can have a look at the policy again, and linking back to that risk around, I suppose, the checklist and the operation of procedures, we were trying to make it so people think about all these things before and there is that option to not accept the niche, and if it doesn't fit within our values, we'd just maybe have them that more explicitly, happy to have a take that away and have a look at that and incorporate that in the update. I think that would be helpful. I mean, I did click on the link in, I think it was perhaps on the procedures document, it takes you through to advice, it's a guidance document, you can look at which charities use, that's my attempt at making it. This is a charities guidance, and then what's that reference to reputation argument? It can help my specialist organization, but I sort of feel it's one of the moves, it can jackpoint to the availability of documents, so thank you very much. Councillor Turner. Yes, thank you, Chair. Okay, my first point again, and you said it is part of the induction, LLE as an existing policy. I accept here we're talking cash on monetary donations as opposed to exhibits or etc. However, it's mean, I'm thinking in terms of what is a donations policy for the Council, I would have it referred just to see one policy that encompassed all as opposed to two, and that way, I've got a situation where it's LLE has got the whole thing, and the rest of the Council's argument there using something else, so that's my first suggestion, if it's possible to actually encompass the LLE into this. The second one is, I think it's some of the colleagues here, it's by hand of place, it's by hand of place. I'd be able to establish where the donation could be coming from, where it's said that someone could have a company, and they'd be able to offer to make a donation through that company. We believe it's the company, but actually it's the directors of the company that we may actually be more concerned with in terms of reputational aspects. So do we look at that if someone was making a donation to a company? So again, in answer to your first question, that's something we can have a look at to see if there's a way of incorporating, particularly in part of the consultation, think that the cash donations were different from the, this was the museum of donations, but we can take that away and have another look at that. In terms of your second point about checking where the donations come from, yeah, that is something that we would want to incorporate, so that's maybe someone we can just make sure that's clear in the operational procedures, so good officers are assessing whether it's something we would want to accept to make sure we're doing that, those sort of background checks to really understand where the money is coming from, as you see. Yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah, just a minute. The part of the reason I asked the first one is because two different policies would be on two different views cycles, so potentially one's not updated, so it's just usually just talking in one complete policy, because that was the whole council, and on the second one, if it's a brand new company, yeah, it's actually held by another company or something that we get with solve that, to make sure we go where the money is actually. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you and I'm Councillor Trennich, and Councillor Salton. It's just two things mainly on the wording, um, 4.7, I think we missed in a word, wanting to make a great sense, and 4.4, at least, really quickly and I'm not entirely sure what it's trying to get at. Divisions will be accepted even later in the time consistent with the council's strategic priorities are set out within the council plan. Divisions will be accepted. I can guess what it's getting at, then we're not going to accept donations that are contrary to our plan, but it implies that maybe we're only going to accept those, but other than the priorities, I don't know. A little bit of a rewrite coming up here. Thank you. Yeah, we can have a look at that word. You suppose, yeah, it was to make that point that we are, we would only accept things that's something that the council generally does, as opposed to giving us, I suppose, adding things that is not generally falls within the council's agreement, but I'll have a look at the wording. In 4.7, yeah, that is a word missing there, that was raised on another ADI committee, so we'll look at that address. And Councillor Stavall. Yeah, it was just a big time, and that's a turn to this point, that the brackets would be one or false, and it comes out, because I think we have sort of confusion there. I've got two specific points about, I think, in addition, it's the assessment of donations, that we've indicated that there's some doubt that I want to remain anonymous, and that's an option, I think, for people. Is that really, presumably, there's a record with the details of it, because I don't know what's been registered, is that only registered then? I mean, if somebody wants to be my own anonymous vote, how would you record that? Yeah, thanks for that question. In terms of remaining anonymous, the register that we will hold won't be a public register is more internally, and we would make sure within that register, if someone has asked to remain anonymous, then that wouldn't then appear in any public reports. And when we're doing the updates, for instance, to the idiot committees and policy committees, in terms of the regular report, and we'll still be recorded in the register, wouldn't itself be public to make sure that that anonymous request is complied with. Right, so again, not seeing any further hands. So, coming back to our recommendations, consider the comments on the drug donations policy, are set out in appendix 1, and familiar company donations operation, which they visit set out in company dates 2. I will summarize the comments that we have made in our sending, sending you back with, as being to look at separate, and I'm hoping that colleagues don't agree with any of these comments, that you will raise your hands from. So, there's a separate section for individual schools, there's schools section of these, but with regard to political donations of unionists that might not fit with the values of the council, but we just think about how that is addressed, and that ties in with my point, about reputation and risk, and picking up on, therefore, it leads to strategic objectives and the equality's duty, as being with looking at that as well. There will be a further to be one policy, not two, that we think that doesn't exist in greater priority, but rather just making sure that it's fully checked, who is actually behind intonation. We're working at 4.7 and 4.4, just a little bit of tidying up, and well, I think your point about it in that anonymity has been addressed. Okay, so on that business, the officer's content, I think we've subscribed to our committees, and the recommendations. Thank you very much for your time this morning. Thank you. Which case, we'll move on to being a drug, evidence, your community, resilience framework which is out of nine, and we have an improvement with us at the book, hello Eddie, to introduce the report. Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon. Committee, you have before you today the draft Abadinsha community resilience framework, which has been developed as a result of a recommendation from both our internal debrief and community engagement exercise following the 2021-2022 winter storms. The recommendation was for an overarching document which would define the role of responders in an emergency to enable community resilience groups to understand where they fit in and what their role could be in an emergency situation. The draft framework is the product of extensive engagement with community resilience groups, input from a cross-service and sexual working group, including area team representation, police, fire and utility company colleagues, feedback from the community resilience conference at the start of October last year, and best practice identified elsewhere. We have received some feedback on typographical and grammatical errors, and these will be rectified to ensure the report is clear and consistent with no ambiguity for the reader. Operational detail is deliberately not contained within this framework, rather this is a document to understand position and purpose in an emergency situation, to enable community resilience groups to enhance and complement the work of the emergency services and of the Council. It is not an operational plan. That level of planning and detail, the who does what when, is dealt with by the Council emergency plan, those of the emergency services and together with the grandpa and local resilience partnership, response and recovery arrangements. The aim is to help people help themselves, the household, family and community, by supporting people to build on their skills, providing and sharing information and knowledge so people can make their own decisions, providing advice and signposting to appropriate equipment resources and helping community resilience groups when it comes to setting up a community resource. This will be achieved through a set of accompanying advice notes and templates, many of which have already been written and shared and are currently available on our website. The framework recognises that one size doesn't fit all and that communities may be at different places and what we are calling the continuum of engagement based on the level of risk they face or the capacity within their own community. Some may seek to limit their involvement to the dissemination of information, others having for example face significant impacts in past weather events and recognising the ongoing need will be much more actively engaged when it comes to community resilience, collaborating on things like the establishment of community hubs. Resilience in an emergency is everyone's business. This draft framework which will evolve over time as we learn and experience more is a stepping stone to helping and supporting individuals, households, families and communities improve their resilience. I'd be happy to take any questions from you. Thank you very much for your introduction, so members we're inviting to consider, discuss and provide comments on this draft heritage council, community resilience framework and Councillor Eversen, Alison. Thank you, thank you and thank you for the presentation as well, it's really helpful and I'm taken Amy by that line that you've almost finished with about resilience being everybody's business and that's a really important message coming from this document and I think it's one that we do need to enhance and say a lot. With that in mind, thinking about the front page of the document, the front page has Aberdeenshire Council logo on it and it looks like an internal council document in that sense. It doesn't reflect that everyone's business that we would like it to be and that sense of ownership from utility companies, police, fire local communities, whoever it might be. If we are going to try and push that message home, shouldn't that visually be useful from the very beginning of document? Sorry, that's a comment about the presentation rather than point the house and it enhances the point you made, Amy, I think that one. Just my other point is one, a similar one I made at community when we had this there was the on page 79 talking about what the council will do and importantly, the council will work with community groups about resilience plans, which I think is really important. Just a reminder that by setting it there with that big tick on that sheet, we are putting an expectation on communities about what the council will give them and so thinking about our own resources and the amount of communities we've got and how we've got to work with so many of them. Just, I'm happy for that to be there in that statement. I think it's a really important statement but just as a council, we've got to be confident that we've got the resource behind it to give that level of support to all our communities because we've said it and we put a big tick next to it on page 79. Just a feedback there on that one. Thank you. Thank you. A good point about the look of that front page, thank you. In terms of the resource that the council can provide community groups, there is funding from SSCN that goes with this project and I've recently done a survey out to community resilience groups to ask them what their priorities are in terms of community resilience so that we can actually direct that funding to the things that really matter to them. Certainly some of the things that we think the money should be spent on or initially thought the money should be spent on have been challenged by those community resilience groups and their priorities are quite clear so that should hopefully provide good value for that SSCN money and make sure that it's been spent in the right areas. I hope that gives you some reassurance. Also, you know, the advice notes that go alongside this framework are there and they'll be developed ongoing so we'll be adding to that as the need rises currently working with a couple of community groups that have asked for specific documentation. So that support is there and that will be there for them to access ongoing in the future. Thank you, that's very reassuring. Thank you. So that's your turn, Alan. Yeah, I'll just couple of brief comments. Okay, you said right at the start again, some type of graphical things that have been picked up. I won't comment my name and I've seen this type of graph, but the first thing I do pick up is the focus. It talks about most recently the winter, I'll say it's page 71, for example, most recently the winter storm of 2022-23. I think if it was me and I'm looking at this as a document, I'm thinking last year out of the day because there was severe winter storms, I've just had, and what, you know, last winter. So I'm thinking, I thought that should really say 23-24. And it's probably looking for assurance that the document that will have here will be updated. We're appropriate to actually take into account what is the most recent winter with fire. The second one, comment, and again, I look at this as a document, I look for like an index. So I can go straight to it, to what is the key point on thinking. On each of your graphics, look beautiful, really, really nice, but the first thing goes through my mind, the summer prints are out on a black and white printer. What does it look like? And second, after that, it's the key points that the community will actually want. You've got the scan through the entire phone to get to it. So if it was me, I'd look for something that's got like links, etc. with an index at the front, this says right. What is resilience? Just as that is the heading. And then after that, you know, if I pick up one, I'm like, I'm trying to get the right page. I could go into the emergency services, and it can click straight to that page. I want to know if it's a good situation for that. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for those comments. And we'll look at that, and I'm particularly interested in what does it look like in black and white. That's something that we haven't tested. And yeah, I think that that needs to be considered. Thank you. In terms of the winter storms, yes, it's difficult, isn't it? Because there's clearly going to be winter storms every winter. So we maybe need to make that a bit more generic for this document to be long-lasting without having to have an edit every winter. So yeah, we'll look at that as well. Thank you for those. If I may, the other one that goes through my mind, and it's always when I see documents like this, I think that people would call a blank. What are they actually seeing? It's a choice that I'm not going to blame myself. But I've seen documents that come out elsewhere. It's just people just about edit. I don't know if that's going to be considered. It'll undergo a full accessibility yem check. And that should be considered. I'm not seeing any other hands. Sorry, it was just that I'm reading the document, which seem to be focused on individual and solids, families, and clearly, where I come across these earlier in the cities, community councils, rural groups, the people within the community. And yes, they're individuals, but I just wondered whether the budget is going to wrap when it's made, in particular, so again, as a group rather than as individuals or a solids. And my second point was in terms of more periods that hang sort of the door and everything. So, which is a ground for some other support, which might be or should be referenced here. And I think you particularly, the experience of the stone hand, include wardens. There was a group that's been going numerous years, which is quite a good group of people, where it's just tremendous. I think I should like me with one of the wardens as well. The one that was training offered and providing information, one of the issues that seems to come out of recent incidences is the potential for people or groups or communities putting themselves in harm's way. I think maybe we'll make some sort of reference to that as well as facility, what we're expecting of individuals to handle the groups in terms of the limitations of their role. Yeah, so, the first point, I mean, this document, so resilience is everybody's responsibility, whether you're an individual or whether you're in a community group. And we want everybody to be individually resilient for as long as they possibly can be. And community groups can support people to be individually resilient. They can provide support for people within the community who are struggling to be individually resilient. So hopefully, the document covers all of that. It talks about individual resilience, but it also talks about what community groups can do as well. In terms of the support and advice that the Council can provide prior to an incident, there's several elements to that, so there's the ability to set up as a community group and all the advice notes that go alongside that, how they could encourage their community to be individually resilient and the kind of support that they can provide and prepare for in advance of any kind of emergency situation. The Council will provide a warning and informing prior to an instance. And we talk about that in our advice documents and how that information can be shared with communities and individuals within the community. Training is a difficult one because there isn't really any specific training out there for community resilience groups, but we're working on a document at the moment which signposts, groups and individuals to various bits of training or information that they can access to to really kind of help them prepare for and understand their role in an emergency situation. You're absolutely right. We don't want anybody to be putting themselves in harm's way in an emergency, and we make that very clear in all our documentation that if they're doing something, they should do that at the request of the emergency services. It shouldn't be something that they undertake themselves, i.e. not expecting anybody to go into floodwater and clear drains. They should adhere to what the emergency services are saying and they should not become part of the emergency themselves. Their role is very much to support the emergency services and to the council as best they can without any kind of emergency response. So we're not looking to train people in clearing drains or clearing roads or using chainsaws, for example. That's not something that is the role of a community resilience group. I hope that's clear and answers your question. I mean, that was exactly my point in terms of, I guess, I'm not in what the limitations, we've already mentioned some limitations about the expectation is not to do that. I think maybe that's probably obviously through the documentation, and hopefully that's in the documentation, so I just sort of think it might be useful to actually be in the prime work. There's an assigned post in the typically documentation in terms of the applicant after the expectation of either the individual or in the representative, not three votes, not using chainsaws. It's 12.50 at the moment, I know it's not quite one thought, but as we hand towards it, and the agreement, it's kind of more specifically beyond 1pm. It's a really good event in the time comes, thank you very much. Councilor Turner, you want to come back in? Yeah, I should have said this, so apologies, thank you. It comes with a lot of what's picked up prior to it. Page 71, post-part of that, it talks about COVID-19, the tragic trend here, we went in August 2020. We thought you'd expect maybe that it was over-solving sessions. That shouldn't be there. Communities are not going to... It's that I would take that out. It's fact that what we expect is to do, the trend the agreement had at the same time as the time was flooded, and that was a focus of the results, and the flood warrants from then off was that part. But I would just suggest taking that out. Okay, I think it was talking about emergencies in general, not necessarily emergencies that community resilience groups would all would not be involved in, and I think possibly trying to highlight the fact that in that situation, community resilience, it wouldn't be appropriate for a community resilience group to support, but you will look at that, we'll look at that again. Yeah, I thought for a moment you were also referring to the COVID-19. It talks about COVID-19 as well. There was a huge amount of community resilience work down around that with people supporting one another through that ability. Yeah, but it's part of what I guess you've got to think in terms of resilience. I think it was resilience as it's something you do in the short term, there's a lot of response. COVID-19 was all due to respect, unless you specified a while, I went on for two years. You know, it's just, my point was, I think it's seen a great development review as resilience for local people. Do you want to make any comment on the COVID-19 inclusion? Very nice, and Council to turn this comment just then. I don't think anybody knew at the start of COVID-19 that it was going to be for such a long time, so that community response was appropriate, particularly in that first lockdown. So I think it should stay for that reason. I'll consult with my colleagues and see what they think. But, you know, if we had something like that again that was short-lived, then I think communities would probably want to do the same again. Councillor Agnew, and then how did that please? Yes, what Council staff, so yes, I really want to work on the field. Yes, maybe if it's so convenient, the problem is people are people, people are human. There is a cat being caught in a lake, but what if they're rising and if there's someone who can't see that cat. I'm going to talk a little bit about it, and the other thing that I was interested in was the most recent one, the title plot, where there can't tell. It was I was there there, and a lot of people were living, and they wanted to ask their followers, their people who would go out and talk in the morning, you know, they wanted to go back in the forest, and what slightly annoyed me, there was the three firefighters, there was restaurants, tourists, and I said, What is going on here? Because the title is not everything, and then there's a very huge target here, people start getting annoyed, and of course the cat being caught, what do you think? Well, I also, I believe he can not realize, and that's probably there. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Sorry, can you, can you, can you, so what are these letters? What? Can you just link this back to the text? Yes, thank you. Because it's training. And the problem is, if you were going to get people annoyed, your training was out of the window to disable people in one picture, one way to interview, and to tell the fireman, go away and go with woman opposite, and to achieve it that rest of it. I was going to stop them, and that's a problem. If you start getting what you see as a flood one, you will do that, it doesn't work, it's to work differently in people, when in trauma. Thank you. Any response to that, Jamie? I couldn't hear all of that very clearly, but I understand that there's a query around the training, and that training doesn't always work. In an emergency situation, is that what you're saying? Yes, because people are human, even flood bonds are humans, and if something happens, they will react maybe another week. One flood, flood bond, and a bit of seafood of water, which is what, and as you cannot do that, that could be, what's out of the corner of the road, talks off, and you'll go down there, and you'll be like, he found out, skis the woman. But that doesn't do, and did that, and so it's not easy, it's not easy, where, you know, people are screaming at you and shouting at me, I'd say, you have to do the best, and it's not, you can't pray for that. It comes down to common sense, actually, and how you react to people. And I have to say, the flood ones I, what, what, what a one, what's required, what's required, what a one. If I wonder if any of, what I'm hearing really is that within the context of the framework, whether there is perhaps enough clarity around people not putting, this is never about anybody being themselves at risk. The training issue aside, which must drop out of other procedural documents, but we, really, this, when we talk resilience, we're not talking about people becoming the emergencies you've searched about, and that, that perhaps needs to be clear within the document. Yeah. Okay. Thank you very much. Councilor Anderson, Alison. Yeah, just quickly, I'd agree with Amy's response about the COVID pandemic. We didn't know how long it was going to go, so it was resilience. And I can understand why the common was included in it, actually, because this is, that's a resilient response to an emergency situation, and there could be some of those actually really big, but for clarity, taking it out is probably the best way forward in what we're doing, but I do appreciate why it was in the first place. On the other aspect, I would caution against including any details of what people shouldn't do specifically, because it'll always be something you miss out. You don't think of including. So I wouldn't go down that route of including things that people shouldn't do, but an overall comment about being confident that they have the training required, or whatever to do, whatever they're doing. I think that would be more beneficial. Just a couple of quick comments there. Thank you, Amy. Thank you. Yeah, we will. And some of the advice that we put out is to do almost like a skills order to people in your community, so that you know who is trained to do what. So there may be people in your community who are insured and trained to use a chainsaw. And so that's, you know, that's a different thing than some random person picking up a chainsaw, for example. Yes. Sorry. Well, I love what you see. What I must remember is losing child at least points at the after-put. Yeah, it's the emergency. So, it's the lead one. Great. And so it's one of your comments in terms of, I think it might just be a sentence and emphasize in the beginning of the detail about what to do, but I think exactly this is the way not putting yourself in an arms way. Which is common sense, but perhaps needs to be served when we're not going into the problem. Okay. Thank you very much. Coming back, then to the meditations. Again, for having my idea here, so before we put recommendations, can we get sure that integrated impact assessment has been taken into account in part with the operations. Yes. Thank you. In terms of our comments. I've picked these up as a request that you look again at literally the covering page with respect to the logo and messaging that's very nice. There was a comment relating to just being comfortable, obviously the importance of having a resource to deliver what we're saying to do as myself, and you didn't respond to that. Which was, I gave you a chance. It was helpful. The need to think about wording where it might make the document looking at how to date. At this point, the Council of President picked up, perhaps some thought to whether or not some kind of index would be helpful for helping people to get quickly to what they'd be looking for in the document for us to think about accessibility, how it might look like and why the use of color, and so on, links to groups. And I think just bearing my voice as said, this issue of not wishing that we don't want people to put themselves in the wrong way. Might in a single sentence or so can make that point, but in a way that's past positive rather than setting up a scenario where we're looking at this 25 things because we don't want you to actually list that together. So just have some thought needs to go back into to that side of things, and then we are really with like the reference to the development. Remove, but the COVID-19 reference would be in the world. Okay. Good. On that basis, we've fulfilled that recommendation and thank you very much for being with us. One of the things we report. Thank you very much. Can I just confirm we are content to continue with items 910 or sorry, 10, 11, 12. Yes. Yes. Great. Thank you so much. I have an end here. Your table short comes with a break, but we will break for lunch in which case, but I will first of all say that I can confirm that the public section of the meeting has now completed and that the recording will be stopped. Thank you very much in the meeting members of the committee will now go on to consider exempt or confidential business without the press and public present. Thank you.

Transcript

Okay, thank you. So, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Cardinal students team. Well, today, 30th April, 2024. I'm just going to begin with the usual custom thing. So, it takes note that the public section of the meeting will be recorded and available to you online after the meeting and can I ask members please to activate their cameras for a possible and all attendees mute the microphones when not speaking, and please do not come in during this unless I invite you to do so. If there is a question to speak now, can I please use the hands up on these meetings and I will, of course, bring you in. We will take a comfort break at the government for Monday. But, Gemma Morrison, our committee officer, if only today, so we have the rest of the time. Thank you very much, and we support you today. So, it is nice to be pleased to be here. Ladies and gentlemen, present. Can you bring it to me? Present. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome. Can you bring what? Present. Ladies and gentlemen, present. Ladies and gentlemen, present. Can you bring it to me? Present. Ladies and gentlemen, present. Ladies and gentlemen, present. Ladies and gentlemen, present. Ladies and gentlemen, present. Ladies and gentlemen, present. Ladies and gentlemen, present. Ladies and gentlemen, present. Thank you very much for seeing. We will move on to declarations of members interest. Seeing no hands. We will move on to item two, which is the resolution of the policies. In line with the council's legal duty under section one for nine, we have a quality act, 2010 committee agrees, doesn't committee agree in making decisions that it shall have due regard to the need to one eliminate discriminated and harassment and victimization. And three foster good relations with those who share it with characteristic and persons who do not share it. Where an integrated impact assessment was provided to consider its contents and take these into account when reaching a decision. So can I ask the committee if we are agreed. Thank you very much. Moving on to item two, which is exempt items. Today we have item 10 of 11 and 12, which is proposed to be taken in private. Can I ask for this degree. Yeah, thank you very much. So item three is minute of the meeting of the requirement merge area committee of 26 March, 2024. Can I ask the committee whether it is happy to recruit them in it as a correct record. And thank you. I'm saying no hands. So I'm taking it. We normally have outstanding items on your gender. It isn't there today. I will ask Mr Stephen, the area manager to move on to that. I shall just shout. I shall just thank you. We haven't attended, we haven't put in the gender rights. Simply because there is only one outstanding 90 which is scheduled for September, which is review or. So the environment. So that will come in September. Thank you. Thank you very much. So, we want to rise in porn now, which is our planning application. This is for both planning commission for cycle to nations to the operational areas to value the warehouse and development in the eastern part of the site with a storage of operational vehicles. So we're going to be servicing the menus to access an ancillary infrastructure unit by Ken Robin way. This is an application in 2023. Thank you very much chair. Yes, we're leads to an application at Ken Robin, north 11 and it's very well. That patient seek to go back to position for the alterations to an operational surroundings on the earth and development of eastern part of the sites. Basically, we are now support solution for operational vehicles, including these are sitting amendments to access and selling infrastructure. So I should have checked and I don't see the slides I'm sure. Yes, I think I'm huge. Yeah, I should be able to see location plans mentioned sites, just to the same by side care on the wedding, which is self access. Also, even though it's wrong there and then to change. So that patient site is located within the boundaries of a safe, safe garden for business users. I'm sure you existing site plan moment and you'll note that the right hand side covers the area to start the actual buildings building. The moment that area is used for parking or delivery, and essentially what you see here, but the next slide. To reconfiguration of this element, even the inclusion of further marketing or storage, basically. From, you know, just 60 meters or so to the south of the existing access. Essentially, then the support information by the application states, overall, jet and proposal is to invite some mission capacity to store all the delivery bands associated with the way it is to once you're patient. To increase the overall advanced capacity for 153 existing spaces to 365 spaces. And then the other thing is to be able to do is to make sure that the site is available to the site. It's primarily around the site but also would be a central event site to be a step of landscaping and also a glass line mixing within the landscaping as well, but the site can be buried into by a good meeting. And just want to slide quickly, apologies, we see the site levels here and it's a site section, so we should explain just slightly to the west, and see the sort of the same thing that was that also this will be screened. Partially sleeping today as we saw provides sleeping in time once it was a chance to mature, and there's also a facility infrastructure, this part of development and selling these building and security building shelter, the bike shelter was here that will be located inside area. And also a transformer substation as well. In terms of landscape is previously primarily once you've been stripped to the south will be detained and enhanced with further planning around the site and also internally within the site to make up the development. And I mentioned recently about your treatment, which is, is. So hopefully see that to the top of the slide here, and it's a small section of advancing, which rather invested in the dark, just because of the nature of the slide essentially will be an open scheme niche 2.4 meter fence in a green shade. And training is also incorporated within site, self-contained substrate age, and just lastly external lighting movie, located within the site as well, although, which led to directly that site directly. And which just a little bit side is also, and we've got both of the graphs of the site as I mentioned, it's an open area and we've just located to the east of the existing band storage area associated with Amazon repo. So if you think I'm clear on the way, I'm just going to, again, then propose is it seems what we can see in the site, you know, in a green color, just get extended for the remainder of the site. Likewise, lighting is already present, you can see that in the slide as well, and it's just telling you not to be on the site. Again, there's some view points in the number of site here is just, which is, which is the closest idea of existing. And I can't feel like the site area was to feel about in a piece of land at the moment, and as long as you established as an allocated site, part of us to occasion here that may be about the main moment. We want to look at the reports noted that there's no left for representation of you received, I know, technically. The report is associated with the operation of existing distribution where those located in the various recent site, our case, and some more mitigated foreign terms and things like that. We'll keep it in the various recent site, our key to the business and employment use in there, and I'll be able to help you plan and post will be in keeping the character of the site so in the area, and some more mitigated foreign terms and three lines keeping, which also be based by the day to day to day. By the university improvements to the surrounding area, which are probably in short supply in this part of Kevin Robin. And as such, it was considered to be buying the puzzles of the four and I'm going to go down to five and say, right, right, to the subject, the report, and I'm going to answer any questions to you. Thank you. Can I ask a commission if they have any any questions, but they need the record. I'm not seeing any happens. Yeah. Sorry, come back in with one point quickly. So that's not the best reason to pick up one and that's in relation to any charging. So this is a hot topic. Something that's been promoted through planning policy and here for picks up on this as well. Through the planning process, we seek to ensure that charging is available in new developments, but actually, the actual provision of the charges controlled through building regulations. My understanding is for parking or non domestic uses that have been expectation of one entire space. I'm not entirely sure this transfers to a bank parking for the development such as this, but I'd perhaps promote an inclusion for the planning condition. In this case, to ensure that the developer is delivering the site in accordance with the building regulations for the charging and I'm happy to attach a planning condition to that. If members of the board will come back to that, we'll come back to that project in which it is. Is it is it on. You need to be. The only thing I'm concerned about with this is the light pollution. A reasonable height when they seem massive to go to a lorry height. There's quite a lot of them already. So, if there's going to be a lot more, that's going to be. I've already shown the beacon a lot more. Is that taking me to account? Yeah, I mean, the light pollution, there's a, the task that we should keep in mind by the ministry or the character of the area. And the way it was to be conventional and consistent. What is there on site at the moment and suitable for the use of the boards. Again, the light thing that is the other's direction obviously split down towards the site. It's supposed to sound. It's one of my thing that may not be shrouded in the need, I mean, on a wider split. If members of the table can send by this increasing further information to define condition. In terms of the lighting, the speed is I used to ensure that we're still as minimized. And that is something we could look at or be able to use instead of the past. I'm only more of a bad employee with uncontrolled fighting coming along retrospectively for developments that may have changed over all the time there. And this is costing my pushing issues in the area. So I'm really happy to consider that also, but we need to look at some of the information just to be sure the lighting is controlled. We continue them in the site to be successful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So I did have a query running that's been addressed. Alright, so thank you for that. I have one for the past comment slash question. Is this the level of planting that's proposed, not rating them or normally expect it? Or is it? And expected to be. I'm never pleased to see lots of these species in what's proposed. Yeah, I think my answer to that would be it's good to see planting and include it from the outset. And I think it's fair to see that quite often it can be better to retrospectively through discussions with planning service that comes harder to remain in development to cooperate fighting at that stage. So I think in this case that, yeah, but the point is included throughout the same area, as opposed to just being tagged on the edges is welcomed. And is it more than, than you expect, I think it's, I think it's consistent what we expect. And it's, it's not going to be a minimum. It's more than that. But I think it's, it's, it's just an important feeling of development. Thank you very much. Councillor CURRY. Thank you very much. Councillor CURRY. Thank you. Yeah, just charging very good. You said that this meets new building regulations. Is that fairly robust in terms of fire risk because it's a fairly high concentration looks to be potentially electric vehicles being charged. So, is the space in and so on appropriate for efforts to be able to buy it? Okay, so, first to clarify, in terms of the level, maybe charting the goals. What I would suggest is that we agree with the planning condition to ensure that the levels required through the regulations are made. At the moment, it's a little bit unclear. And my understanding is, it's something that we're evolving. And if we're planning policy, we're still trying to find a few examples, should we seek it, if you would be honest. Fire risk is also another hot topic at the moment. It's something that has been considered quite systemally in relation to development types that we're seeing coming forward, leading to E.D. charging, battery storage, hydrogen production. These are all creating fears, I think, that can maybe happen in the considerations before, but I'm not expecting to be careful because I'm not actually strictly planning considerations. They're controlled through other legislation and other stakeholders, such as HSE, we are responsible for on site safety in order to fire risk. So essentially, we don't consider a fire risk as part of the planning process. I'm not sure if that's been entirely satisfied your question, but they are sort of giving specific consideration to fire risk in terms of the location of spacing on E.D. charging. It's covered in other legislation. Okay. That's good. And those are some of the bits of all that. So, yes, it's true. It's been said, and it'll be a few at the same time. Okay. I'm seeing no further hands. So, can I ask whether or not we feel we have a significant information to see if it's taken decision. Yes. Thank you. So, I've opened it up to debate. We do have on the table as we consider the recommendation when we come to it. The suggestion that we get attached to additional conditions, which is a condition, ensuring that the posting the child who meets the building regulation standards. And a condition that ensuring that the lighting display is controlled to minimize overspill. Is that correct. Yeah. I like to study to demonstrate the, the, the leaders of the nation with the test to minimize. Thank you very much. Okay. On that basis. Are there any. Is there any debate? Are we all happy there for to accept the recommendation for us, which is to grant full planning permission subject to conditions, both that land in the report and adding this morning, related to the charging and the lights play. Great. Thank you very much. Okay, then, which case that is read subject to those conditions in the report and the two additional months this morning. So we'll move on now to item five, which is seeking full planning permission for installation of solar panels at 18 West Street johns haven. This is at 2024 0140. And we have a request to speak this morning from Mr Tom critic who is the applicant and he's here with us. Can I ask. We're not going to see. We're not going to hear from me. Obviously, I'm going to invite the planning officer to introduce the report is you just heard the previous one. We're going to have an opportunity to ask. Our questions. And then when we're satisfied, but you've asked all the questions that we have him. I'll come to yourself to speak for five minutes to propose your application to us. After you've done that, we'll have an opportunity to ask. And when we've finished doing that, we're welcome to a new seat of the table, which is going to be new that's cited, but that has me not to speak. So, on that basis, can I ask this instance, please introduce us. Absolutely, so, but I've got to stop the installation of some more panels and property with the US to johns haven and application. You've got to get a committee for consideration. And because I have said noted for the observation of the visual impact on the cognitive conservation area. So, that is, you can go plan pushing for the installation of solar panels to the dwelling house and be located on front elevation on the roof plane. And just show you the location plan to see so it's not entirely clear that this is the red line site area that pertains to number, and just to the north of that street. And showing your gear on the slide. And we're going to say again, it's just completely the middle edge of this associate coverage, and we do have an indication of location of solar panels. And I'll come on to talk to her configuration of solar panels, which is very slightly through, of course, that patient from what is actually there straight on this side. So, this is existing from the elevation of the property, and the roof plane and comes is the building you see from us here, and both as amended is to basically keep two banks or six. So your panels within the roof space. And on south basic this you mentioned south facing elevation and each of our panel vendors are props with 1.2 meters by 1.7 meters. I'm just looking forward one slide to show the additional submissions and then it was be following discussions with the applicant in relation to the organization. And then of the proposal, and that's a secondary proposal, which we're now assessing, which provides that balance is eventually to the, to the sort of panels that are previously proposed. And sort of the panels offset one site, like the more. And so we are considering that they're making schemes here, just for clarity. And. So, I'm just looking at a section of the panels building technical solar panels, including a 7 centimeters, 7 centimeters, the edges, no money almost above the refined and 40 millimeters for each panel to just under a couple of inches. And then we get some photographs here just of the actual property itself, we get an idea for the character of the property and surrounding environment. And this is also a new taken from West Street, just looking towards the elevation, the understanding of the character of the building, which is a fairly traditional quality with a attractive fairly blank slate pathway. And again, some alternative you back that early on the streets, and some future of the new garden spot and I don't want to show that you're not. And the video is building and associated out buildings within the garden and a paper type of garden area. So, in terms of the reports, and there's no, there's no, the red flesh, basically, you see, in terms of consultations, it's noted that the heritage service, the heritage has injected to the puzzle, due to the slow panels, the install and principal elevation of the property, and it's highlighted that the opinion is so cost intentional, but the fact that the information area. And in terms of the discussion of the importance of the address, and it's highlighted that there are essentially the property, and less by a large college for this part of john's even there are buildings there, and the money says did seek to discuss within that it's agent. And that came around the hedge of sightings all the panels that's where within the site. And I think it's fair to know that we have seen previous money at least recently come to the committee for solar panels on the replays buildings within the 20 and conservation area. And based on which you can send it, and that's what's the question, therefore, I can be asked to be a consistency, in this instance, and I think we're looking at it as a chap occasion as one merits, and what opportunities that are to less in the impacts of solar panels on visual character and conservation area. And in this case, we feel that I want opportunities to be careful, and then those current essentially the impact and conservation that could be produced and then they eat it. And that's where ultimately on balance that it's this application delightful internal policy, and then what needs to the recommendation of refusal. We do accept that the applicant has been amendments to those all to their balance the solar panels and minimize impacts as far as possible. Most ultimately looking at the first mission is the whole abundance of the roof plane and this property on my street would be real is we often really have an extra character on the character area. And, as mentioned in the local development and the reports, the term president, which is always an awkward planning terms to get much weight to president, but suppose in terms of testing, but also consistent decision making. And I think it's important here to explain that between the recommendation he made here and other planning applications have come before, and John said about the differences, we're not trying to get fair, trying to apply the same policy and looking at the specific circumstances of the application. And we asked him to take the ultimately is non balance with condition of refusal there's a button section 10 of the report. And I think by the polls, it's seven and eleven national planning framework or a policy teaching student in an outreach and relevant client and also answer any questions to. Thank you, Gregor. So I invite. Councillors to get the questions to very soon. Thank you. Thank you. Two separate questions. You're talking about precedent, therefore, I presume there are no other. So the panels in that street on the online rooms. On top of my head. I'm not sure. I'm going to use it. I'm on my way off. And again, I always come here. Okay. And my other question is about the alternative side that we thought might be better. Have you been given reason just why that's not possible and this is the. Thank you. Thank you Shirley. Thank you very much, Gregor. In the report, the section under bill heritage. It talks about other viable options being possible. Could I ask what what is considered when an analysis of viable is put forward. So essentially, then there'd be a blank service and descriptive. We would tell somebody how to do something real highly would be like them to just look at and below other options. And in this case, we're going to get the skill that I'm going to do this in the open buildings and read the potential to mode solar panels elsewhere. And then the contour there's perhaps a little buildings onto the view of the property. We understand there's some things that can compromise the efficiency of solar panels. We'll be looking for the applicant to put forward also to essentially assess the impacts of key panels elsewhere. You'll have that in this instance. We've simply come to a point with African things as suggested in this instance. This is the preference. You'd say that there's only to kind of boys in front of us. Okay, so I understand from that that viability doesn't consider the efficiency itself and. The number of solar panels that might be required elsewhere to. To make them viable really so that that's fine. Thank you. And the other question I have about sorry. Yeah, so you know, bible theory would include assessment of the efficiency of the panels and the impacts and whether it'd be so a development viable or not. And we separate and we take that into the relationship that we've got in relation to the state in front of us. Okay, thank you for that. That's what I understood. Thank you. And just if I may chair a second question, the report talks about. And the benefits of the installation outweighing the visual impact could ask what what you consider when you're looking at that. Please. Oh, gosh, yeah, so in this little subjectivity when you're reading up policies and with any fine application, but you're really not going to wait for policies to give. And do I. Read or read to one policy than another and that's also in the decision maker and this is the community to make that that judgment that the planning services assessment is that given that we feel there are other vital openings for taking the solar panels. And so the natural balance could be in terms of preserving the take the responsibility of us also in the building, but it's sustainable. And people and particularly similar potentials of solar panels that when we move through policies and we just feel that there's a balance of people that haven't been removed. And financially, and we can seek that ultimately committee to take weeks to lose elements of policy and then they need to do that. Thank you. That's helpful. Thank you. Thank you for your questions Alison. So, Councilor Sullivan man. When you take into account the impact of the visual. So, I'm looking at the houses opposite industrial shares to the staff of the. The property, does that take into account when thinking of. The visual impact of solar panels. And that's what I'm thinking all aspects into account that are planning the same spot along the street there, but I'm thinking of some of those buildings, but essentially what was looking as the impact of this development, particularly on the constitutional area. And whether they're in places or to track some conservation area and in this case, we feel that the introduction of solar panels on this, this really. Good example of a sleep, which is traditional sleep, which roof, we've had a detrimental impact to some of the state visually, and that there are often. We're always looking at the two or two people right about the question you answer asking, we're not looking for a lot of examples. But it was a lot of examples because consistency of who who developed in this concept for land were constantly striving to improve the character. No, it was more there. If you look further down the road, there are quite a few old properties all grouped together. So I can see how that is that some panels that would have the more detrimental effect. Whereas, if I'm looking at this property, it's surrounded by more modern properties. Is that taken into account? Well, potentially the whole area is constitutional. The whole question is actually within the conservation area. So we're applying the same standards of constantly seeking to preserve the environmental conservation area. It's kind of the form. So in fact, with our main model development, we can track the fact that this is a traditional property, and contributes towards the concept of conservation area. What else is the conservation area I've been comfortable seeing. So, well, take account all aspects. The answer in this case, you can take the facts and not try to look at the conservation area, and then it's possible. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Councillor Victor and Catherine. Councillor Victor, your question. Councillor Victor, can you hear us? Can you hear someone online? What I'm going to do is I'm going to cancel a Turner and I'll come back to the translator very long. I'm not sure she's still connected. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I was just asking Kate, at what point did you do with inaction? Did you hear most of the discussion on to Council? Yes. Yes, I just lost a little bit. Sorry. Okay, well, so just to recap, so you didn't hear Councilor Turner's question, it related to the use of silver slate PV solar slates, which was suggested this option wasn't it. Yeah, my question is more. I wanted to know these solar panels that they're putting on there would be removable panels are they. They're not a permanent fixture to the roof. So they're not actually detrimental to the actual building is a building and they're not going to do any damage to the actual conservation of the building. And in terms of the buildings and take the structure legal. Yeah, okay, that's fine. Thank you. Thank you for your question. I'm not seeing any further hands. This will go to the story of the secret. It's now your opportunity to speak to us. And the area manager is going to make sure that your might go this way. Okay, if you'd like to. All right, but not in charge of the money off. I paid me for that recently on my last day. The reason I'm the biggest thing I was to solve that was, is that I am having to pay extremely high costs for my cousin. By eating approximately five in the bottom. Since I bought this application in, it's cost me £2,000 for a leg. And I thought it was probably fine. I qualify for a government grant on the equal force team. Now, this in time was me for insulation, solar panels, and even a heat source part. Now, this is a grant from the government to obviously bring us into that. To do a way with this environment team, it's important. My house has built a stone and it's very cold. And with the equal foreground scheme, my walls will be enslaved, as I said. Then I may have added houses in the village with solar panels. And more than I've permission to be installing, I was set for the council's simple address, but I've got these in the village with them. And I can be seen from the harbour, which is a full point for John's name. And where I am, I just went down for her end of the village. I got a carriage next to a lot, was a garage, and the store officer. Two modern bungalows opposite holding the onums. And the three storey building next to me. So I don't see where the conservation store come into making my house look pretty. When I'm surrounded by anything else. Then I was told by. And the environment around them, and the planners. The planning officer got to put them on my steps. Obviously, while she did come around and take photographs. So the sheds are made of two to two structure. And I can understand on top of the shed to refill every couple of years. So to put one sort of panel on, we've probably demolished the shed. The other two sheds that back on to someone else's garden. There's also shade for the three storey building that you've seen next door to me. So once all the guns on them, those sheds are going to live to my house for 24 years. And they were there when I went there. So I know that he can't stand on the roof. There's pestis roofs. I have been maintained. I have to paint them to stop them leaking. I couldn't put solar panels on them. The next option she gave me was to put them in my garden. Now, this is all one in wood, but I would have to cut trees down. To make the storey panels work efficiently. Otherwise, they would be shared the trees. So I've got three nice and chillered trees in my garden. I don't really want to cut them down. The garden's my hobby. I don't provide them. I used them. But to take my hobby away from me. The same storey panels that are shared with my trees or cut trees down. That we don't really want to do. There's a number of them maybe. Then we came to the point of the tiles. As I've said, this is a government scheme. They don't mention tiles. They're very expensive. So I don't want them to be paid for them. And I haven't got the money to paint them on them. And the hydro boards, the electric or mine will be at the moment. So that's my request for solar panels. And as I say, there are six other panels in the village. Three hundred hours ago. I know I've got one of them. One of them at the end of my street continues on. With round the last month. But that's my hobby. Thank you very much for this. Thank you very much. It's good to pay. So, as councilors, for asking questions, how do you answer them? As you and. You mentioned the other associated versions heat pump. The solar panels. What can conjunction with the heat pumps as well. So you put in a heat pump as well. Yes. To make the inside so we can see a lot. Yeah. Very old house people with the insulation and it would still get cold. So that has forced pump would be continuously running. Thank you. Turning to councilor Anderson. Yes. Thank you. Sorry. Thank you chair. Thank you, Mr. crib. Can you confirm that you've been advised that the, the viable position for the. Sort of panels is on that front elevation of the roof. Yes, it's the way the sun comes up. And all of the other voltage all face the same way. The solar panels all face the same way. You are not among the main street. Which they had to move the solar panels because they put them on without planning permission. So they place the main street. Okay, thank you. Any other questions. I have a question, Mr. Krueger. Now, let's just ask you explain that if you were to put them into your garden. If you were to do that, you'd have to take down treats. We've got photographs of your apartment. Do you know roughly how much of your garden total may would occupy. Well. The chat next door to the house. And he's got all of those in his garden. The shape of his roof, he couldn't put them on the roof. So he put them in again. When I look over the wall and see them, it would take up. Well, half of my garden measure. Thank you very much. Councillor Carly, you is up. We have another question, is it like to see. For the next. So can I clarify enough? So still fox is that a question. It's for the next. Okay. Well, see, don't burn the hands. So thank you very much. You'll have them. I'd like to leave you up at the moment. We'll go back to your seat in the gallery. I'll try to hear. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. So, when we go on to debate, before we discuss that, whether or not the panel officer has anything that. And we should, we should add. Following the request to see. Yeah. Okay. And can I ask colleagues if they feel they have not information to each position. See not in case. Thank you very much. So council partner. Thank you. And thanks so much. Well, the, the comprehensive report on this application. Welcome back. The service and the applicant worked and closely together on this and. And I think the separation of the panel is across the two sections of room. I think are quite appropriate. You know, in terms of balance. And so fully that. And just going on balance, you can take a look at an application, which you was a decision on balance in relation to policy. But I think it's happening to say there are other properties and. In the conservation data, which home to the panels. And it's probably a case that we need to look at these as being totally stuck to us because I think we will be removed to technology advances and things move forward. But I think the personal circumstances of the applications have to be well, are completely deleted. And I think it would be sympathized with. And of course, so living on the coast when these wind blows. And he bought a switch is not the best in terms of when. And being water type. So. So I think in terms of by the conservation area. I can say that we cannot see our conservation areas. And fossilized that does need to be. And you can give him take. And that means that can people respond to. And situations, which are particularly. In terms of efficiency and also in terms of. The cost of. And also in terms of the cost of. This is the best time solution for this particular. From that case. Here, as you suggest that we actually. Grant this application and. Thank you. Yeah, I'd like to second. I'm sort of call us. I recommend that. I should be glad to. Really, I think the. We often can stand straight in the way. So. There's been some work. We have to get in there. And the cancer in terms of. Mutee, some of the. Similar features in terms of splitting the. The solid. And if we can find cancer cause point about. These can't be seen as. And I'm sure technology was developed over. It's also important to. And then it's up to the cost point of a. Not. Also, I've seen the conservation. There was this clearly. The standard testing that from the. And so you don't want to move forward with any gross technology. You encourage. In the right to. So climate change as well. So. Second. Thank you very much. Thank you chair. It's just taking this opportunity just so gentle reminder to members about. Clarity and the decision. Reasons and in particular reference to the relevant policies. Which have been highlighted in the report and just highlight. There was mentioned. Just a few minutes ago. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. The cost of living that. Clearly is not a material planning. A consideration as part of your reasoning. So really just a gentle reminder that. If. Members could direct. Their decision making towards the policies and where. Wheat is being given to specific policies. One against the other. Great. Indeed. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. I support what Councilor. Council still focus of says houses. Even those in conservation areas were built for living in. That was why they're there in the first place as homes for people to live in. I think that's that's important. Things to remember in the course of all this relating to planning. And MPF for policy 11. Says that weight should be placed on the contribution to. Renewable energy and I think this certainly does that. And I would think from from the photographs we've seen and the discussion we've had. I would suggest that the solar panels. Do not have a negative visual impact on the character of the conservation area. So that's what I would add to what said, but basically homes are for living in. And this makes it possible to live in this home. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'll come back to Councilor. Regarding. Thank you. I feel that this does it was. Because I started, you know, step in. We get to make a way towards the overall. The streets of. Thank you. You're happy to accept and hear about this well, but I'm sorry. Yes. So that basis, it would be. I'm not saying any. I think I said it's the start of my presentation discussion. This application is balanced between the regulation for the policies and assistance between policy C2. What the low term plan relates to the new old energy and policy of the important energy. We, the market is policy seven, but then before storm gas, it's in places and policy issue to which release the most efficient is the development plan. And I mentioned the ultimate is for the certain maker committee to give weeks to those policies in this instance, while I keep discussions. You are trying to get more weeks to the policies that we get energy and renewable energy in particular. And this instance feel that ultimately that we don't we, the impact on the constipation area in this instance. We finally that it's feeling suitable to listen in fact on the constitutional reality, the point that all the need for a living. And that that's a very valid point. So, I think we're getting more weeks to the new version policies in this instance is a meeting from the party from a policy to and a policy seven. And there's also mentioned previously me in relation to the 10th in each of solar panels, you know, they could be removed in this instance with a family minimum. I think that also we can wait to make a decision. That's what I'm going to say. I'm just trying to summarize didn't start in the final discussion. Well, thank you. Yeah, I just wanted to add to what I was saying about houses being livable. They also have to be within the economic and consideration of the person who's in them. You know, these houses are not easy to heat at the best of times, and they've got to be a comfortable living, not just living in them, but you've got to be able to live comfortably in them. And the renewable energy is the one way you can do that economically. So that's my view on the thing. Thank you very much. Again, and if you're adding your weight to the renewable energy policy point as one monster suggested. I'm not seeing any other hands. So there are no amendment to the recommendation to grant on the basis of the fact that as it's been summarized so I'm going to be by record that replaced the greater weight on the renewable energy policy and do not consider that these sort of panels will have sufficiently detrimental impact on the conservation area. And I just check that Katie officers, um, open in those points. And then I'm not the team officer is content that we've now coming from. Yes, thank you. Um, on that basis, the no hands subjecting and no amendment. We are agreeing that the grant will give. And the approval to the application and they are so depends. Thank you very much. We're going to take a break. I'm going to go before we move to finance plan application. So, well, we can be at 25 to 11. [BLANK_AUDIO]