Transcript

Thank you. Good morning, everyone. This is a meeting of the Licensing Act 2003 subcommittee of the Hilden Borough View for a review of the premises license for Greenland Supermarkets 323, Ronfield Road, Forest Gate, East 9HA. Please note that the meeting recording will be attended after the meeting on the council's YouTube channel. In accordance with the Member's Code of Conduct, the three councils on the committee are required to declare any relevant interest on any matter being considered at this meeting. I have no interest to declare, councillor. I have nothing to declare. I have nothing to declare. I will now move to introductions. My name is councillor Toni Wilson. I represent Becht and Maud and I'll be chairing this meeting throughout today. Good morning. I'm councillor Jane Lofthouse, representing Basto Sass. Good morning. I'm councillor Jennifer Bailey, representing Manor Power. Thank you. Case Officer, please. Steve Jackson, licences. Thank you, Chair. Can we start with you, Colin? Yeah, Colin, I'm licensing involvement in the review too. Thank you. Ian Wakestall, Metropolitan Police Licensing. I appreciate you. I appreciate you. I appreciate you. I appreciate you. Thank you. Wonderful. Thank you. Would you like to introduce yourself, please? Linda Potter for JT Licensing. Thank you. Thank you, Linda. Graeme Hopkins. We're acting on behalf of NARTS. Hazret Qasibam, the licence holder. Thank you. And DPS. Yeah. I'm Mahir Tiliç from NARTS, National Association of Turkish Restaurants, Takeaways and Supermarkets. Right. Can we... Right, you're going to have to... All the time. And if you could just project your voice a little bit so the lady behind can hear you. Mahir Tiliç from NARTS, National Association of Turkish Restaurants, Takeaways and Supermarkets. Mahir Tiliç from Marquis. And I've got Mr. Mesut Kochova on my right, who is a husband and working at... And a licence holder. Not a licence holder. Not a licence holder, but... My husband. My husband. Yeah. Right. Okay. Thank you. Did you get all that, Marina, sir? Yeah, thanks. Lovely. Okay. I'm now going to briefly run through the procedure of the meeting today. The licensing case officer will present their report. We then move to the representation from the responsible authority. For example, the police trading standards, environmental health. But today we have representation from three residents who I take it have not turned up today. Okay. Members can... Members can seek clarification and so can their representatives on any matters that we discuss. We then have representation from the police licensing team. Sorry, police licensing team and... Sorry, let me start again. The police and the licensing team. Okay. Then we will go on to the licence holder. And there you have the opportunity to present your case. Finally, members may pass a resolution to deliberate in private and exclude the press and the public, including the parties and the representatives. The clerk and legal advisor will remain with the members to provide advice on procedure and law. When the decision has been reached, the meeting will reconvene and the decision of the subcommittee will be announced in public. Four written copies of the decision sent to the applicant or licence holder, responsible authorities and other interested parties, usually within five working days. Parties who have taken part in the hearing may appeal against the decision to the magistrate's court within 21 days. As this is an administrative hearing under the 2003 Act, we are not trained lawyers, so we rely on legal advice. Okay. Presented by... My name's Ken Foote. I'm the legal advisor to the committee. Thank you. I'd also like to inform all parties that we base our decision on written and oral submissions. The clerk will take minutes from of this meeting. Would you like to... Thank you. Thank you. If anyone in the chamber wishes to ask a question during the meeting, I will ask them to raise their hand and wait to be invited to speak. I'd also ask for all mobiles to be switched off or silenced. I am now going to invite the case officer to present their report. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. The members of the licensing subcommittee are asked to hear and determine an application for review of a premise licence, Greenland Supermarket, 323 Bromford Road, Forest Gate 799HA, and any valid representations that have been made. The review application was submitted by the council's licensing team to the council's licence. This was received on the 8th of October, 2020. The application was advertised by the licensing team by means of notices in the immediate vicinity of the process. Grants for the review on the licensing objectives of the prevention of crime disorder, the prevention of public nuisance, and public safety. A copy of the review application is attached to Appendix A. This contains supporting documents, including warning letters, statements, and photos attached as Appendix A1 to A5. Police licensing team have submitted a representation in support of the review application on the grounds of prevention of crime disorder, prevention of public nuisance, and public safety. A copy of their letters is attached to Appendix B. Three residents have submitted representations in support of the premises. A copy of their letters are attached to Appendix C. Two. The premises, premises license was grandfathered over in the new licensing act 2003 in 2005. A minor, excuse me, a minor variation to the license in February 2019 to add on conditions, which are currently on annex two of the license. A transfer of the license and DPS change was completed in October 2021. A copy of the common premises license is attached to Appendix D. The members of the licensing subcommittee are asked to hear the review application, the representations of the license holder, and any valid representations to receive responsible authorities and interested parties to determine this application. And just additional to that, there is a supplementary pack that's come from the agent for the premise holder. This contains witness statements, training records, some detailed responses in relation to the representations. And there is some CCTV footage and photographs in the bundle as well, and CCTV I can show when you are ready. Right. That's lovely. I have no questions, so I should be in perfect order. Any questions for Steve? No. Any questions? Lovely. Okay. Now, I thought you had a question for Steve with regards to, you made mention of it earlier. All right. So this is. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Right. This is a question for Steve. Who had the license from 2005 to 2019? Tell me, license since then. The license was transferred over in October 2021, which is the common premise holder sitting to me today. The previous license holder, I can quickly check that. Sorry, I didn't have that to hand. I believe it was in another individual name, which was, I've got it here, one second. Lord Dana Elena Mihai, and that was the previous license holder on premises. Thank you. Okay. Is that it? Yes. Thank you. Wonderful. Thank you, gentlemen. Right. So, as we've got, so firstly, just give us a little walk around where it's actually situated. Thank you. Thank you. And the CCTV footage, could you tell us where that emanated from? That's been submitted by the agent for the premise holder. So, it might be a case they may wish to show that when it's their turn to. To give their rep. Yeah. Wonderful. Okay. Okay. So, the premises in question is Greenland Supermarket here. So, it's on the junction of where Woodgrange Road and Romford Road meets, leading down to up to Lane, I'll just spin it around. So, obviously, this is leading down to Forest Gate Station. Yeah. We have Palms Banquet and Suite in the corner, which leads down to the Greenland Supermarket. If we go down a bit further, there's a few other premises of licenses and obviously late night refreshment venues that are in the area as well. Thank you. So, moving on from there, we, the agent mentioned in the supplementary that there was two other premises that we have for review. Have their reviews gone through? Yes. So, could you tell me in conjunction to their premises where they are, the distances between? I'll start with the one that was the oldest, I believe. Five Woodgrange Road was one that was reviewed and that is around the corner here. I don't know if the bus is going to be in my way. Yeah, sorry, my screen is open. I should not take this out on site visits. Right, so Woodgrange Supermarket is here. So, I'll see you from the junction, you'll see. It's not that far. A hundred or so metres to the junction. There was also Bronze Royale, which was a restaurant and also a sauna. That's quite nice. So, obviously there's Greenland Supermarket, just scroll back. Greenland Supermarket there. Yeah. Bronze is here, which was obviously a restaurant. So, that's separate to what we're really looking at. And also a sauna is just right down here, which is there. Right. So, if I just turn that around. Before you turn that around, could you also show us where, is it Sproulston Road? Okay, that's just on the corner on the right-hand side. So, these were the photos of the paraphernalia, the cans and the bottles that we have in the supplementary from Sproulston down to... In the supplementary, I'll have to double check that. The main report, I believe, a lot of the pictures are from Mr. Hunt and Mr. McEwen. It's in the main bundle. So, it's from Sproulston. Yeah, I don't think it's Sproulston in the supplementary. No. No. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Do you want to go further down or...? So, just while we're on the photo, Shane, you took a lot of the pictures. Could you just tell us from where did you start taking...? Where the arrow is. See where the blue sign is. Yeah. There's two phone boxes. A lot of phone boxes. They're like BT boxes. Yeah. So, along there, there's also... It was spread pretty much along that road. Right. There was concentration at those two points. Yeah. Where people would stand, drinks down, and then it's very steep. You just go to the right. So, it's sort of behind you. Right there. There's a little alcove just behind the shop. Oh, there. Yeah. There was a lot of alcohol bottles there. There's a lot of phone boxes. Not phone boxes. They're like BT boxes. Yeah. So, along there, there's also... It was spread pretty much along that road. Right. There was concentration at those two points. Yeah. Where people would stand, drinks down, and then it's very steep. So, you just go to the right. So, it's sort of behind you. Right there. There's a little alcove just behind the shop. You know, it's like... Oh, there. Yeah. There was a lot of alcohol bottles there, and urination, and sorts of stuff. Right. Thank you. Are there any questions that you'd like to ask? Yes, I would like to ask. You referred to the two reviews. Which of those premises, licensed premises, has robust licenses, we might say? And which ones might be... So... Well, in terms of two off-lices that were reviewed recently, all of them have robust alcohol control on the license. I can... If you want me to double check and... Yes. That will... And are there any others... I'll just... I'll have to stop sharing my screen now. No, that's fine. I don't want to ask any questions. Okay. And could you tell us when the reviews were actually heard? Thank you. I think it was soon. We thought of October, if they have. Sorry? We're on Royale, it was the 24th of October, if they have to see. Yeah. Interesting. Maia, to come back to your chair. This is going on. System is very slow today. I'm sorry. It was Brontoy and Assona. Right? Recently. It's been in the last... Which ones were they? Was it Brontoyale and... Assona. Royale. And they were in the last, what, three months? Um... When did you roughly take these photographs, Shane, please? So... So... This is... This is... This is... So that I'm clear. This is an adjournment from the 12th of November. This hearing. Well, this is adjournment, Chair. It was... Asked for... To be postponed to another date due to the agent asking for... Mr. Hopkins to be present. That's it. It would have happened on the 12th. It happened on the 12th. We would have taken the pictures before... I'm sorry. Can you roughly take these photographs, Shane, please? So... This is... This is... So that I'm clear. This is an adjournment from the 12th of November. This hearing. Well, this is adjournment, Chair. It was... Asked for... To be postponed to another date due to the agent asking for Mr. Hopkins to be present. So it would have happened on the 12th. It happened on the 12th. You would have taken the pictures before then by... I've actually... He's got it. 7th of October. Yes. It's actually stamped on the actual bundle. Oh, sorry. The main report. If you look at pages, 24 onwards. It's got SPO2. 7th October, 7th October stamped on... Yeah. In October, then basically. 10th. Yeah. I don't know. Just to confirm... licensees. So we've got a... Yes. Has percentage. With an exception of certain brands. There's a few brands that they've got an exception on. Um... Woodgrain growths at the same 6%. 35. 35. Yeah. 35. 35. Yeah. 35. 35. Yeah. 35. Yeah. Sorry. This is so slow. Oh, thank you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Let's try and pull that back. 35. Yeah. 35. Sorry. This is so slow. 35. Oh, thank you. 35. Let's try and pull that back. 35. Good Grange Road, the review date as well was on... It was issued again on the 15th of October, so that's when a new license was sent out. Um... Your license, yeah. So not loose on license, obviously. Yeah. The actual review. Um... The conditions are... Right, we've got... Beers, lager, stats and ciders, noxies, 6.5% of them. Right. Um... Spirits should not be sold in bottles less than 35cl. Right. Uh... Bottles and cans of beer, lager, stats, ciders and alcohol, pop, should be sold in packs... Two. Singles. Products to be marked with a label, mark, pen, personal license holder, DPFs to be present, are permitted hours, alcohol should be screened off, and then obviously there's training records. Yeah. They're pretty similar with Osona just having, I believe, that exception of two brands. And I'm sorry, I can't get that license up on the screen. Okay. That's probably... Guinness. I think Dragon Star... Yeah. Extra. Yeah. Two pack. Um... Comp. I can't... Can't... Don't mind. Don't mind. Don't mind. All right. Can I just expand? Yes, please. Just other... So how many, uh, premises close to now do not have robust licences? Um... Conditions? Pretty much only this one. In that vicinity, um, around the corner we've got Iceland and Tesco's as the larger chains. Um, they have conditions on their licence, um, but they don't have high strength beers that are on that premises. Okay. Thank you. Right. Yes. Yes, of course. Um, there is another off-licence practically next door, two or three doors along from that, it's called Signal News. Oh, yes. Um, could you just say what conditions, if they've got any robust conditions on... At least one wasn't reviewed, was it? Mm-hmm. Signal News. Yep. I'm just gonna... Number. I know there is another one between Lesona and this one. Right. Licence. Okay. That's 309, I think. Yes, 309. Sorry, I'll stop printing these out. I can't rely on this system. Um, I knew he was gonna mask this. Yeah. Um, yep, 309. Good. Just waiting for us to load up. That's 309 off the phone. Yes. Got to work on our Wi-Fi in this building. It's okay. Do you want me to leave that with... I've got it, I've got it in there. Got it. Right, so, um, I've got the time as well. 10 to 10.30, sale of alcohol on Sunday, and Monday to Saturday, 8 to 11. Um, we've got petitions. These were put on by committee in 2012. Um, yes, personalised as our nominated person, present at all times. Speak up, Steve. DPS, personalised as our nominated person shall be present when alcohol is being sold. Right. DCTV conditions. Um, strong beer, lugs, and ciders over 6% are not permitted to be sold at the premises. Yep. And a prominent sign shall be displayed above the counter to, obviously, notify customers of that. Um, spirits not to be sold in bottles less than 20 CL. Um, challenge 25. Uh, staff and competence training. Um, training local fuses book. That was in 2012. That was in 2012. Yes. Um, yeah, that's it. Lovely. Thank you. One more follow up question from that. All right. Do you, do you know if that's premises signal has been tested? I had. Um, on that one to make sure that they're not selling. Uh, the last compliance visit was done on the 21st of Congress 2024. Um, just pulling up the compliance and sort it's at a different angle. And yeah. Fully compliant. No issues on the premises. Yeah. Yeah. No, no issues at all. Premises. Wonderful. Follow up warning letter or. Okay. Thank you. Right. You've bought the review. Would you like to present your case? Thank you. Thank you chair. Uh, on the 21st of August, 2020, street drinker walking into the premises. It was refused by a member of staff on this occasion due to the fact that. Excuse me. The gentle, the gentleman who was buying the alcohol, he was unable to buy this said can of alcohol. Uh, this was around 8am in the morning. Two failed test purchase occurred on the 21st of September, uh, one at 1.17 and one at 1.41. So literally half an hour apart. There was one bought a seller and one bought a high strength big test room. And this was after one o'clock as I say, the license came out until one. So that was beyond the hour of selling out. The licensing authority have no confidence in the license holder DPS clearly have a lack of knowledge of the life and subject to the question. Uh, the fridge and shelves are also stopped with high strength beers. And they have got no, they didn't have no pricing on when. Um, uh, groups of mail are observed on a regular basis, loitering and drinking alcohol around the premises and surrounding streets, waiting to purchase alcohol at all hours of the day and night, which the licensing authority believe these premises are selling from eight o'clock to past the terminal hour. Uh, there was also discarded cans of high strength beers located in Sparrow stone road and the alley off Woodgrange road, uh, which we just, we just highlighted them on the, uh, on the video. Yeah. Which is a few meters away. And these premises, we believe are contributing to the issue around street drinking ASB as the premises have robust conditions in place on the current license, especially for controls of alcohol. Uh, also the staff member working was unable, was unaware of the responsible responsibilities regarding the sale of alcohol within the appropriate license lines. There are a number of other licenses in this area. Um, predominantly, uh, Ronford road and, um, Woodgrange road recently reviewed as we've just heard. However, the majority of other licenses and, and then licenses just had them high strength, uh, on the, on the licenses. So basically we've just heard that most of them premises, in fact, not all of them have got that condition on there now have appropriate conditions to combat the problems in regards to drinking. Uh, at, at present, the licensing authority do not have any confidence that these premises cannot hold the full license objective without appropriate training of their staff. And have no appropriate conditions added to the license to ensure adequate control of alcohol are put in place to deter street drinkers frequenting the area. I have also included statements, warning letters and pictures, uh, as, as we've just alluded to. Uh, if the subcommittee are not minded to revoke a license license and authorities like to ask the members of the subcommittee to consider, to consider in, to consider the conditions that I have, um, listed, uh, below. And. Chair. Uh, the area has certainly improved. I think the police in the police is letter. However, it's not perfect around there. We're still seeing, uh, um, discarded high strength cans of beers as, as, as, as you've, as you can see in the pictures and as the officers, um, spoke about. Um, it's better. It has improved, but there's still some work to be done, not only on off license from our point of view, but for the whole area. Um, and I think this goes a long way to, to eradicate the street drinkers in particular area. If we can add some conditions to the life. Okay. Um, were any discussions had between you and the agent, um, prior to this hearing with maybe modified conditions or agreed conditions? No, I think, I mean, you have to speak to, uh, them, but I had a brief conversation and they're happy with, um, or not that they're, they're willing for certain conditions to be put on there for a lot of them. Right. Okay. Could you tell me what, what one say they're not happy with? Say what you said. Yeah. We'll, we'll make our own presentation if that's all right. Nice. Okay. Because it was sort of an unofficial conversation. Yes. Okay. But taken there. So I didn't want to sort of put words in there. I appreciate it. All right. That's fine. Um, so questions. Council of Tess, would you like to start? Um, yes. Got a couple of things I'd like to ask you. Um, am I correct? Your visit on the 21st August was with Steve? No, that was, um. Oh, right. They, they, they, they, then a late night, is it? Oh, right. It's too old, I don't think they are. All right. No, just looking on page 45, but Steve has referred to seeing a street clinker leaving the premise for a single can, um, which presumably would have been thought from there. Um, but maybe that's for Steve. Um, also I wanted to ask you, um, you said that the staff member was unaware of their responsibilities. Did you, you spoke to them, did you, at the time? Yeah, I spoke to them during my visit on the 21st August. Yes. Um, and I think they were aware of it once I spoke to them. But obviously they were going to be on the routes as well. They were going to be on the routes. And that's why I sort of, I was unsure. And that's why we conducted a TP on a lot, literally a month later. Yes. Um, to see if they were, and clearly they were. Obviously they were afraid to be on the routes. I'm as well. Yeah. I mean, and after, even after my visit, and I, I've mentioned it to them during that, you know, about street drinking for hours of that. Even on the, a month later, they still done a test purchase. Same day twice. Yes. 17 minutes and 41 minutes past their hours. Are you aware whether the person who served you had any training or was aware? I didn't do anything. So, um, my guess is they didn't because they would have known that they would, they were going beyond their hours. Yes. They didn't seem to know. It was like in the morning. Mm. I'm sorry. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. And at that particular time, was the, um, license holder, not license holder, was the DP on the premises? Uh, you'd have to ask the officer that I wasn't there. So was the license holder that lady, DPS or license holder? DPS or license holder? No. As a man surgeon. Yeah. So it's a mouse. Mouser. License holder. Who is the DPS? Wasn't on the premises at the time. All right. Um, uh, that's the Bailey. Would you like to ask a question? Okay. So, um, let's get, uh, okay. Um, why do you believe that these premises may have been contributing to the issues in the area? Uh, well, I mean, it wasn't just these premises initially. It was, there was a few premises around there and it was the, the volume of street drinking around that area. It was quite significant. I mean, I've been down there a few times over the last few months, two officers, police help as well. And we've seen a higher level in that little area there. Um, the other two premises were tested and found. Um, and there's certain, this has been put on them, them licenses. Um, we have seen an improvement, but there is still street drinkers in the area. Um, this is the only premises selling to high, high strength alcohol to whoever they're selling it. But if there's high strength in that area, this is the only place selling it now. So they've got, I wouldn't say got to, but my options is that this is contributing to the problem. Right. There has been an improvement. Right. But that tells me, I mean, put it in their statement. Yeah. That tells me by putting these conditions on the license, it certainly helps the area. Right. Okay. Um, before we go any further, Shane, those cans that you documented, were any of them or did any of them have, have, uh, markings? So all those photographs, not one of them had can mark in. Okay. Okay. Um, you mentioned about staff training and that's something that you're really kind of passionate about. Um, right. Now, uh, both the personal license holders, Mr. and Mrs. Cochabar took their personal license exam and part 22, February 1st. Um, the staff, uh, K Sataki, Mohamed Ahmed and Sataki H took their underage sales, um, exam and passed again, 22nd of the 11th of 2023. Um, so where this is one year later, if they've gone through all that training and obviously the, especially the personal license, um, examination would cover all four license objects. Um, so what other training would you like to see, uh, put into place? Well, um, obviously there's no conditions on this license at the moment. So obviously there's no, you know, if, if, if it's not revoking conditions to put in the license, um, and then train all the staff and any new staff coming in and maybe some obviously had the training a year ago. Yeah. Um, even with a license conditions on it, um, are still operating beyond their hours. So there is a training issue in my view. Right. Um, and if there's conditions on the license. If they're not trained on it properly and they're, they're not, and they're being trained, they went through the training a year ago. There's more to learn. There's going to be conditions on the license. It's not revoked by anybody else. Um, so there would certainly be some, some sort of, uh, focused training. Like conflict training or? Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, conflict training, I mean, just, just proper training, but training on, um, um, the license as well. The personal license is a good thing to have. Yes. Not that, but it's a very basic course. It tells you about the licensing act. It does go. I think it does touch on conditions, but it is, it's not a, it's not a very robust. It gives you a personal license that you understand what the license and the license are. Um, whereas, uh, uh, uh, a proper, some, some proper training from an external company. Go through everything, including the conditions. If they're put conditions on it, whereas the personal license, they don't go through conditions to. Exactly. Um, it's not specific. Yeah. Yeah. Very generic. Licenses. Loads and loads of different licenses on the borough or the country. Yeah. Um, so it doesn't specifically concentrate on a license. Whereas, uh, a lot, uh, external company coming into a premises training, uh, a specific premises would focus on that premises. What that premises is about. What the problems are within the area and what conditions are specifically to that premises. Thank you. Okay. Uh, my last question. Mrs. Koshibar believes that you're abusing your powers and that you are over reaching on your proposed conditions on unrelated out of hours stroke operations. What's your take on that statement? If an, if an operator, um, sales to street drinkers, they've got responsibility. First of all, after their staff as well. I mean, and if they're operating beyond their hours, I don't see how that's my powers. I wouldn't have bought this review. Uh, if they hadn't been not doing what they're supposed to be doing. So I, I, I totally agree with that. Thank you. Not using my powers at all. Okay. So. Okay. So. Yeah. Okay, I'm soft. Yeah. Do you want to ask me a bit about this? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, Colin. Yeah. Could you give us historical context on street drinking in the area and the impact on the residents? So not just this area. I think, you know, we've got we've got lots of areas that have street drinking problems. The impact on the residents are, I mean, we've looked at, we've monitored premises where people have got street drinkers standing in the street, causing a nuisance. Residents are, and this is not just overnight, this is during as well. They literally cross the road. It's being noisy. So, you know, boyish, can I say that? And we witnessed say not it's not just this area. In general, this is street drinking. And when it does go into the night, they cause issues of a night as well. Something like that. And all the hours, especially in residential areas. I mean, you've got, we haven't had any, to be fair, we haven't had any residents making support of my, my review. And that's not unusual. But you've got five side roads, like it's called road down the side. And that's very safe for sure. And that there's street drinkers down there. Then the alley around the back, that backs onto the flats, I think it is, and it's a nuisance. Residents in Newham aren't notorious for making representations or that they sort of live sort of thing. But that doesn't mean to say it's right. Yeah. It's still a problem. And as I say, I'm not specifically saying these premises, but obviously, and we can't use this community of impact area. This isn't, that tells you that area. Well, that's why I can't use it. Yeah. But it just shows you that this is a path. Yeah. Wonderful. Okay. Yes. Regarding the 20th of September. No, it wasn't actually, you went in for the test. Yes. I wonder, do we, do we know how many staff were working at the time? There were two, two members of staff working. And, and did you view the street drinker coming out with her? Absolutely. Yeah. And we'll come to him a bit later on. Yeah. All right. Thank you. Right. So are there any questions for Colin on his report or what has been discussed? Yes, chair. One, if I may, please. Thank you. Colin. Can you tell the committee what evidence you've actually got? What hard evidence you've got? This shop has been selling to straight drinkers. Is there any CCTV footage? I've just explained here that obviously they've got a comprehensive CCTV system. Two council cameras I saw in an earlier incident in that area. Did you witness any? Yeah. I witnessed, as I said in my, I, I witnessed, I was in the shop and a street drinker come in at eight o'clock in the morning. Um, he would have been sold it. Um, he would have been sold it. I'm a hundred percent sure that would have been sold if I wasn't standing there. I said to the guy who was standing, I was talking to. And he, he was quite sort of like, can't sell, can't say what sort of thing. And I said, look, you know, it's your shop. You do what you like. I walked out of the shop because I'd finished what I was doing. And the guy and the street drinker was still in there. Whether he sold it on that afterwards. I don't know. He probably didn't, because I'd just been in there, but that's my evidence. And the guy who he did is at eight o'clock in the morning. Um, he would have been sold it. Um, he would have been sold it. I'm a hundred percent sure that would have been sold if I wasn't standing there. I said to the guy who was standing, I was talking to, and he, he was quite sort of like, Can't sell, can't say what sort of thing. it on that afterwards i don't know he probably didn't because i've just been in there but that's my evidence to say that the street drinkers are using that and i'm 100 sure that that would have been sold did you see the beer that he had in his hands did you know he had a high strength beer he had a high strength can of alcohol okay thank you just to follow up on that sheriff on me so we've got no actual evidence um was it within you say it was within hours uh yeah it was it was eight o'clock in the morning all right so i haven't got a issue with the timing of that i just had an issue with the guy in there and he was being sold out can you what i've been asked to ask you is can you confirm whether the sale was made or not i after that after that i went out my guess is they didn't sell it because i've just been yeah we but i am 100 sure that that would have been sold chair if i hadn't been there we do have footage of that incident so sure that it's not that sorry graham yeah could we play this relevant footage i don't believe there's any sound to it no it doesn't say sound uh do you want me to just play all of them i don't know just that one at the one but i'll come on to the other slides if i think uh i believe these swap so who is the gentleman in who is the shop or the license holder at that time in that picture graham uh i think yeah the one in the reflection t-shirts and the one in the striped shirt as the others of stuff okay could you talk us through what's happening we're just seeing them i've seen the footage chair the the dying they go i can i can i feel like two person uh that you are seeing are a member of staff yeah uh the man in the hoodie tried to buy an alcohol if you just can you uh rewind the place so we can see that again stay yeah so he's a street drinker running the green guy in the hoodies is a street drinker uh calling refers we're just going to reverse it so i'll just walk you through the system for the future just give us a second right now you can see colin speaking to two member of staff here and the guy who just walks in now colin refers as a street drinker we agree he's a street drinker he can't even stand walks directly to the bridge grabs a can and the other two member of staff still continue to speak to colin and he speaks to the street drinker and the member of staff in a black shirt you will see in a moment that takes the can and puts back to the fridge colin walks out and member of staff takes the can and puts back to the fridge and he's been as cool you know he's been asked to leave from the bad language you can see and he's going to be shouting to the members in a second he's been refused and he's a member of staff calls the manager and he walks out right so that is the incident mr colonel refers clearly no sale was made and it has not you know we've not been provided by licensing enforcement team or police that the premises has actually sought to any strict increase and that was this is the incident they are referring so yes but um i'm sorry i i think that you said there was no you never saw a purchase sale i said i didn't see a purchase of sale sale that before the video yes yes because i knew that they weren't going to sell because i was there right as you can see i made a comment on that video as well that if you notice that man stood there bemused why am i being sold this can i'm normally sold this can and the fact he's just taken away from him he started shouting because the can was taken away from him he's not used to that and that's my point okay right i would all i would say jefford if we may is that there's no evidence there but there was no sale and it was after eight o'clock yes and that has been agreed by both parties okay um any other further questions for colin um the gentleman himself can ask colin a question yeah i'll cover the 20th presentation that's all jeff that's all any questions legal please just for i finally got this system to work yeah it's just really relating to 305 a sonar the controls of alcohol that were added to the license if you do want me to stay in there yeah hold on one moment let me just find out where you uh so that right okay uh beers lagers stats aside the sole message not exceed six percent abv except dragon start original um 313 guinness foreign extra stout uh the bottles of dragon stat and foreign guinness um shall be kept behind the counter of uh not available for self-service um all spirits should be located behind the counter no cell of spirits in bottles of less than 35 cl and obviously exposure to cctv for the alcohol where it's stored single cans beers lagers alcohol pops or cider shall be sold right okay um and just one other point i just obviously what was raised earlier in relation to the current license there is there is some conditions that are on the license i think it's a good license is that appendix two that's on appendix two uh page 58 bundle um a good time to just mention that training is it's number five yeah more detail there was some information relating to invoices etc but there is also a condition while we're here today that might be agreeable to remove which is under just under condition one yeah which is a very confusing condition i think today this license is going to be tidied up um that'd be a good one to remove if all parties are agreed and because it relates to no alcohol should be taken from the premises between over on 20 hours and 0800 hours monday to saturday and again on sunday which it means nothing chair and conflicts against their current license page 58 it's a bit of a strange one number man isn't it i don't want to shut up i've seen them types of conditions into pubs and like drinking up time so i really don't know where that's come from it's something that i think um will be good for both parties too thank you for our time it should be for our time okay thank you okay so let's move on um we're going to go to the case ian no it's a feeling it's huge sorry jen on about prevention of crime and disorder mention of public nuisance and public spaces in the area and surrounding the premises these joint operations appear to have some limited success as statistics for instance anti-social behavior reports to the police that are specific to that area within a quarter of a mile radius of the postcode of the premises are relatively consistently low over the four month period up to august this year however having said that there is still clear evidence of problems with street drinkers in the vicinity of the premises we've decided plans to pass from the alcohol and miniature possible spirits in the side streets near the premises the presence of street drinkers congregating in the vicinity that is residential is highly likely to have the first effect on the quality of life and well-being of the residents especially the women and children and other vulnerable persons who may reside here that is why these have included public safety is one of the grounds for the representation therefore police supports recommendation of the local authority licensing officers to consider revoking the license or if not minded to do that to impose a set of comprehensive and robust conditions right and on page 50 the police suggest some amendments to the wording proposed to the in the review application as highlighted in the red yeah have you had a discussion with the agents regarding your conditions i didn't however connell did on behalf of the metropolitan police however connell has been off yes yes recently i think was fully agreed um considering the seriousness of this and and the fact of where this shop is positioned um and i probably pick myself but why have we got no hot spots or statistics even though it's low it would have been nice to see i apologize for that um unfortunately i've only just taken so not being well he passed to me last night but i mean it statistics are well down on the previous years but well down on very high is still fine high right okay um have you had any um reported instances emanating from this particular shop in the past any instances recorded uh not against the pacific shop no right okay it's just asb with street drinkers in that area area lovely okay um all right all right so the questions that i wanted to ask them to elaborate on what's the conditions since nothing has been agreed don't go over to my colleague stopped us no i think i will ask people just for as connell's not here today uh just like it's on the bundle on page 49 there is an email between um greenland supermarket and connell um page 49 of the main of the supplementary sorry um it's basically there's some wording of the conditions for cc i believe connell has agreed to imposed on the on the license what the decision is today um and obviously other discussions in relation to the other issues in relation to the cctv wording that's page 49 49 49 49 yeah i've got yeah page 49 unfortunately on our supplementaries it's different page numbers um yeah so yeah 47 for our abundance so the cctv has been it's it's wording and it's subject to the committee's decision but this is some good wording of the cctv can that i want you to see and you've seen that page 49 47 we have chair thank you yes and i've just confirmed with mr killich and this is cosima that they have accepted in fact there was an email from nart written to the police to it was to connell yes it was um they've accepted the police condition relating to cctv and connell's wording right lovely that that one's not often killich would like to ask some questions right if you have a chance no uh right no not not quite please so jane you're just going to ask the police some questions joanne counselor did you have any questions for the police right okay so what i'm going to do is i'm going to move on from joanne to shane now i've asked you 13 to have chair before are we going to have a chance to ask the police yes of course yeah that's this when we're finished um you said there was an issue raised uh by a restaurant owner um regarding i take it the paraphernalia and what's been happening uh had they given you any evidence where the issue issue issues were emanating from so what was the conversation had uh he came into the salon for his license and he raised an issue with street drinking outside another incident but mainly it was alcohol and fuel and stuff um because the the restaurants uh so it's like oh you you are speaking so quietly yes again yeah and a little bit louder he raised an issue about three drinking outside because uh it's a hello restaurant right a lot of these customers are put off by people outside drinking alcohol being outside and how close to the premises is this particular restaurant it's two shops away very very close okay so continue with the conversation he was raising a lot of issues around street drinking some violence that happened further down before linked to this this place he's you know he's opened his favorite license and all he's seen street drinking everybody lots of me people coming into his shop causing issues in the shop um and his staff being confronted by drunk people um when he's trying they're trying to reject him from from his whole day of drinking alcohol right okay all right he didn't put any anything i i said to him you know you could send us an email or but he didn't evidence anything and on this conversation i'm not sure if i missed or not did he say where he saw these coming from he didn't say he didn't say he just said just in and around okay thank you uh yes of course um so you said the the street drinkers were going into this other shop and causing trouble were they going into purchase or just to sit in there and some people were trying to consume alcohol inside take their drinks in there yeah take take him in with them um but as i say it says it but not so it's a dessert place it's uh it's called candy flops yeah and it's just desserts and yeah yeah yeah that's not unusual that yeah especially in this weather people it's cold yeah premises yes haven't got licenses so it's not unusual to see people like street drinkers going into sort of chicken shops and all sorts of places just to see because it's it's more raining or yeah yeah and they're they're a family run they're a family own family run that's the customers that they want they don't want out they asked them to leave yeah yeah and they they said they get flights and then conversation is called the beach yes don't know how true is yeah but this is the conversation had but yes it was it was more because we were the licensing officer someone has appeared i said no street drinking what you do about it but he had the favorite license for late night and it was it was a fair comment to be yeah but yeah okay right so i asked you about can marking on any of the cans that you saw and took pictures of and catalogued um which i accept but the cans that you saw outside and the rest of paraphernalia you've been inside their shop were they same type of strong strength beers that you saw outside on the street that they were selling in their shop there was a number of them that were the same brand spirit box as well i'll be honest with you i'm barely into the team so matching vodka it's a bit of a couple yeah i did for me whether the names are different ah so like the carpaches and the blacks is it black swan the really high strength ones yeah you've got yeah the burry estrel uh special is it called special k it's a red k on the back yeah i know those from visually uh going by single care and by strength and the video is showing somebody and i witnessed it there it was a high cap it was a high volume and i think it's it which is okay um you mentioned that there was no pricing on the shelves with where these high spirits what do you expect them to go for roughly yeah um there is a a guideline for it i mean i don't know it's more of a trading standard thing uh because it's still out and brown probably no more than me but um but they normally go for a couple of quid for a can of um two pounds three pounds 180 yeah one pound 80 for a high strength but it depends on the height the volume of it it's 70. yeah i've said quite high temp yeah i think that's how it works isn't it it's a it's a high yeah a lot if it helps share from my different customs uh the higher the strength a bit more expensive yeah because the juice is fine yeah more juicy yeah and um yeah i mean i'm we're not in inferring that this that they're selling it they're not they're not selling non-duty paid alcohol yeah but we would have trained standards certainly would expect to see pricing on on alcohol so you was quite surprised and all times that you've gone in there you've not seen any pricing well i i only went in a couple of times once um the officers went in a couple of days did you notice any pricing on the i can't recall that's that's what i definitely saw no put it in my statement yeah and you would expect to and all wouldn't yes i mean it i think it's a it's the law actually pricing products right okay in response to you if it may i have just checked with mrs cotta about there they do have pricing now is it they possibly do now right so when did you put the pricing on the cans on the individual cans i do mean or on the shelf the shelves it's always been it has always been there yeah there's no legal requirements as i understand it not individual things but on the shelves so i think the cans are on the shelf no no they don't have to have them on the cans they have to have each each like yeah you know like on the shelves yeah these cans are short and you said you didn't see them when you went in okay all right uh all right i've got no more further questions for the police or yourself kind of combined into one have you got any further questions no you're right that's yeah i've got one it's um it's the list of um accounts that you've done page 20 right that was that was your your report wasn't it she they've got on page 20 there's a chance you'd see sbo yeah yeah now i i'm just interested to see that now during guinness so we're going to assume that sweet drinkers were buying a during guinness yeah and i'm asking because occasionally we say okay nothing over six percent except and we sometimes have you know um at the cost of sleep was mentioning some of the beers we do yeah i mean the nigerian guinness and certain stouts aren't associated with street drinking so we're on occasions we're happy for them to yes sell that that that yeah specific yeah type of because we don't see evidence of that type of alcohol on the streets and whitney's street drinkers drinking it the plans were mentioned a few times in this on this page and i'm just thinking what does that have any impact i can't recall where the images are there is a hairdresser potentially they've they've stood outside there and drunk and gone in so the fact that some of those cans you took photos of are nigerian in this is we we'd see that as an exception as it were is that right i mean yeah i mean no i'm not saying it never happens but it's less it's less likely that that's the shooting yes yes see the punch so just um carrying on from council of the house comment and and just so that we're clear street drinkers like to drink the high strength beer so why would you why would they also buy the 20 cl of spirits well i i know obviously to make it to make it stronger but it there's obviously a correlation there where they tend to mix these two yeah they do yeah the gin yeah they mix it and also they don't just alcohol they mix um like energy drinks as well so like they drink energy drink get the miniature if you like and pour it into one like they drink that and that becomes a uh uh yes yes but they do also um put it into sort of like you know fosters you know so they do if they can't buy the uh high strength stuff they sometimes drink it we've witnessed it between the fosters a bit and then they've got the miniature in there and my last question which is probably self-explanatory but do you find that normal everyday people like you and i go and buy 20 cl um spirits i mean personally i've i mean i've never bought anything under a bottle yeah but that i'm not i'm not saying that it doesn't happen it doesn't happen you know people might not be able to afford it i thought to buy a bottle which is fine they might just buy a half bottle but generally there's the little small drinks i'm not saying that every street drinker will do it and there are some people possibly out there that that will buy when they get home from work just to have a quick drink and there's nothing again nothing wrong in that but we see them on the streets with these miniatures and and the pictures as well that the miniatures are uh prevalent in their street drinking yeah okay thank you thank you guys sorry no no that's yeah it's not all right um so we've finished uh now it's your opportunity to ask questions of the police thank you madam chairman first of all i'm grateful this meeting is recorded on a cc2 a very professional setup which we may refer in the future um you've set out clearly before we start the meeting the procedure of the uh agenda on page five procedure of the committee uh you have given opportunity to license an officer to set out this case and then police officer that's right and we had a chance to ask a question to licensing officer and police has made their representation uh we were hearing and obviously question being asked and then licensing officer came back in and there are so many other points have reason right which should give us opportunity to ask question in relation to what has just been discussed yes i was going to focus on the police questions uh first uh but i will now if you give him an opportunity also add further questions absolutely license no visa so i said this is your opportunity to ask questions thank you thank you first of all uh the review application was brought before you because of out of sale hours uh a question to the police their representation on page 49 and 50 uh police states the grounds of their uh representations uh prevention of common disorder prevention of public news and public safety in the first paragraph so i will begin with these questions did the police officer uh observe or report any incident of public disorder linked to the greenland superman i don't want to hear about any other businesses in the area you are here for greenland so my questions are specific to these premises please don't make general comments it's okay um question please answer um as i previously stated we've had no incidents from that but there is a asb issue with street drinkers well i'm not i understand my questions ask questions please question please thank you and was the out of our cell which was found uh to have directly contributed to any crime and disorder in your view yes or no would be fine on this particular occasion no thank you have there been any reports or evidence from the police indicating that greenland supermarket operations have compromised public safety yes or no as i can say stated no thank you are there any other premises in the india contributing crime and disorder or public safety issues and how are those being addressed compared to the greenland supermarket there's been as the accounts have already stated a couple of them have already been reviewed and had both with strict supplies uh conditions put on their businesses so they've dealt with exactly because if we said that that whole area has an asb drinking issue you've you've made this representation have you investigated the review evidence of street drinking directly linked to these premises have you made any investigation about that the safer neighborhood scenes the forest gate south police safe neighborhood team have highlighted that area as an area which is you know that have you made any have you made any investigation in relation to this review um can i just just mention and she she did say at the very start the gentleman that um the police officer that has wrote this letter um and has supported the review of the licensing team is actually of sick she got the paperwork last night so she cannot be as informative as doubt would have been if he was here so if you can just kind of turn it down joe if you could just oh sorry i wonder if you could also remind uh the nats representative this is not a call it's not a call yeah exactly it's not a quote so another cross-examination should be a an axiom information yes yes all right um im minded about that thank you share you're coming across quite aggressive and that's not what we're here i apologize if i found it so aggressive because i found this procedure completely unnecessary there is only one incident we are referring which is out of cell hours only one day we've been going around the street drinking problems we've been going around the issues in the area we need to focus our mind to these premises well that's fine and i completely hear you and understand you but if you can just talk to her not so much barker i mean of course quite thank you i'll i'll apologize for that thank you if i've been any of you please um we're going sorry connell stats did do a review of that area it's estimated in the letter that was presented and it did state because of the work that had been put in in around that area so there was a review that was done within that area right um yes you're over well your colleague who has been unable to hear today uh from start i've personally emailed him four times and because he was off sick uh he did not reply to any of my emails and once i had a chance to speak to one of your colleagues over the phone they said we are happy that you've accepted the conditions that police proposed but we will not withdraw our objection and we'll let the committee decide did you know have you been told about this conversation about that and yes he did tell me about that conversation the reason for that was that you put a time limit on accepting the conditions but where he did not pick up the email before the time it was up he could not then say that that was accepted it's just that i just wanted to demonstrate to the committee that we've been trying to speak proactive uh before the uh before the committee meeting thank you that's all thank you but now chair i've got a couple of questions rising from the uh colin hans uh yes that's fine please go ahead visit the video footage we already have seen uh was uh about a drunk person drunk person who attempted to purchase uh a high strength beer on 21st of august yes uh on the restricted uh the supplementary agenda chair i'm going to ask you to turn the page um sorry page 36 just give me a second before you start is it 36 in the black or 36 in the red black you will see an email right um one moment legal sorry with in red color 34 yes yes give me a second um can um on the green means restricted um we are not really is it just it's because it's personal information not in the public domain so discussions is fine it's fine just wanted to make sure that we're not um um many laws here okay please go ahead okay so have we had a chance to read this page page 36 36 jeff right what is that you haven't had the chance to make your representation i have read that i'll just wait for my colleagues to yes sir quick refresh okay thank you thank you jack uh visit was made and management uh miss kochoba and her husband has taken a decision to voluntarily restrict high strength items and they've sent this email on the 6th of september yeah uh to uh to uh to colin hunt uh or licensing team uh i'll say uh have you made any other visit after the 6th about the strength of alcohols at the premise have you made any prior visits after 6th of september to check whether the premises selling high strength or complying with the voluntary conditions they proposed you haven't you haven't um but that's all yeah oh yes yes just for clarification the 6th of september this was yes and the the after-hours sales was on the 20th of september that was a fairly high strength it was sold yeah so what so to our understanding the 6th of september this letter was sent from greenlands to the licensing team saying that they've that they've decided they're not not going to sell any strong right and then on the 20th of september uh you've done a tp and that was still personal orchestral personally been there i haven't but officers have right nine nine percent nine percent can i yes and that was after this letter sale of high alcohol beers in bracket ciders so we stopped serving high uh high percent of ciders so it says alcohol beers and ciders ciders so beer is a cider is it is inside it was ciders they they stopped serving high strength side all right well it's not very clear on here it wasn't clear it was drafted by the management it wasn't going from us to the licensing the premises owner has and i take it they didn't show this it's not being as clear as yeah they should be clear so they were still selling high strength yes but yes not ciders now what is the strongest cider volume that you can buy the what's the strongest cider strongest cider what is the highest strength cider that you can buy uh from the art pharmacy sorry i have to say i've seen you live um a certain well-known super market where we live as you know opens onto an area where they got straight drinking problem it's 11.5 i think it's frosty jacks yeah frosty jacks and white lightning 11 is the strongest cider 11.5 is the strongest beer by this we were dealing with with ciders i only looked into that wine the beers can go up to be what well normally 10 10 yeah these european ones sort of nine nine ten i think colin would agree eight nine ten yeah about the high strength higher that's why they stopped it because what we used to find um when i was doing visits there was yeah three drinks will go for the plastic bottles of cider which a lot of people and it's got more content it's got more content you get two you get two liters for about two pounds 2.99 anymore they stopped selling anything like that i was not taxed either is it so there's no high level of you know there isn't you know so it's doesn't come under that that barrier that wasn't you sort of boomers like the cider was it it's the more the industrial cider if you like all right thank you so this letter of the 6th of september the alcohol you're referring to they're the same alcohols as a receptor on page six is that right that's norm cider night cider cider is mainly yes yeah yeah that's what it's meant about okay so any more questions for the police or the licensing team one's good ken you're good lovely okay right now it's your turn to present your case thank you you're going to be speaking first and i think yeah and mr kilich afterwards um you've heard that this season have done chairs and you're going to talk up it's tight trousers you've heard chair that mr and mrs kosiver are run and have um operated it since october 21 um before proceeding further i would draw your attention as you've heard that supplementary agenda prepared by uh parts on behalf of mrs kosiver and it contains a clear statement of her position and the review has been brought against uh a background of uh increased enforcement activity in this area forest gate um unfortunately is in the vicinity of greenland supermarket following a violent it started following a violent incident outside a nearby premises which obviously for legal reasons we won't go into um which resulted in the sad loss of the victim other local pre uh premises as we touched on today have been reviewed um it's fair to say especially off licenses due to street drinking uh allegedly in the area this although this um other premises have been viewed in the areas of ciz you'll be aware chair this application must strictly be considered on it's under the law and guidance for example two days on which incidents have been mentioned appear to have triggered this review and i'm talking about the incident on the 21st of august and the 20th of september right on the 20th 21st of august i didn't want to mention names so i was just going to say the senior license college um they were carrying out visits as i understand it in the area to look at premises and the impact of street drinking and other issues i saw a man going to green the supermarket attempt to buy a can high strength beer we've seen the footage um quite rightly it was properly refused by the staff wanted to clarify it was within hours so it wasn't an out of hours sale the guy was sex accepted street drinker but the shop staff did the right thing they said no we've got the footage for it when colin left they still didn't sell it to him refused so i would argue there is no evidence to support that that was an illegal um street sale it was refused you've heard about the staff training i'm not going to look up all the papers but all of these guys the four members of staff that were named have done a course is equal to the awplh level two course for a personal license they've also done a course on restrictive alcohol sales this is a shop that over the last two years has been test purchased three times not wrote to trading standards got the information three times over the last two years into including twice earlier this year are underage sales and passed every one of them so this is not a proper premises that take things like you're going to you know break want to break the law mrs kosipar has said there are no conditions on their license he was grandfathered there were some conditions added i think in 2019 relating to our body not to do with these owners the previous owners but relating to possibly duty of aiding cigarettes or something similar but nothing to do with them so please don't look at the history and think it was ever possible we've got two a couple here running an off license to make a business this is a shop that's been hit by covet since they've taken it over they've been hit by the energy crisis and the price is going up daily they have actively engaged you can read in promises cut about they have gone out of their way to engage with the residents not to offend people who are their customers far from their their way of doing business i've been to the shop it's well laid out light stuff they know what they're doing and yes i did see i'm going to say i saw it i was there last friday afternoon and i saw pricing on the on the panel so they do price and that i would argue is compliant with the law there's no requirement to have a price on every tick oh sorry on every can or bottle it just has to be priced you get that in tesco you get that insane they don't mark every blooming can it's on the shelving what you what you're paying for it so all of those things i would say are being dealt with again going back to the 21st august there is no evidence that they would have actually gone on to sell that had colin been further down the road no nothing on the cctv cctv is readily available the council has two cameras on the street one on the on the other side i can never remember the road name but sprouts can walk or say spouse to road and there's one further down past the bus stop toward wood grange road um where's the footage to say that the shot has been persistently over the last months and years selling to street drinkers footage was there we use an connection with another review if you recall and that i dealt with recently we won't name that but that was dealt with there so that footage was provided it is there um there's nothing on the they keep them for 31 days it's there nobody's asked to see it to prove whether there are some straight drinkers so i'm making i'm saying this has not been proven to even the civil standard the civil standard is a balanced probabilities that you have to decide on but it has to be under the guidance evidence-based where is the evidence he's in the shop it's outside the officers haven't witnessed any any sales personally going to moving on to the incident on the 20th of september yes we accept that happened i don't think anybody's arguing it didn't the reason is it's set out in this is my simple statement the gentleman concerned had bad family news i can't i'm not at liberty to go into anything more personal it's being recorded but he'd had bad family news and was struggling to deal with it it's the first time he's ever done that he let the clock run past one o'clock and he made the two sales mr and mrs kosipar deeply regret that so does the gentleman concerned he has had the training this is not a place where they've just stuck people behind the till and said take the money i would like to show that other foot it's the other other ones i think it's two to five steve which show the gentleman concerned doing his normal clothes and you can serve it for yourselves i'll just go straight down yeah basically yeah so i understand yeah what time is this 101 yeah morning right excuse me in a supporting gentleman with that white hair he was the person who closed it late on one occasion that we are referring out of ourselves he can be seen on he is the gentleman who had the bad news and here you can see he started bringing the things in at 101 which has actually blocked the doorway and that's where he leaves it every day every night he brings that in that's where that fruit stands put everything inside and they just so if someone came in at 117 you're saying that on that particular day which is not that day he couldn't have come in through the shop if you go on in a normal monday tuesday wednesday thursday at 117 that shutter would have been there but even what i'm saying is that you can tell that you're closing up and he does this every night yes yeah so that night where he sold at 117 and again at 142 was the shutter up or down or was the trolley shuttle was out on that particularly he was not aware of the time okay what's up and where was the trolley the thing he probably was outside was so it was fully open okay fully open so he he just couldn't you know he didn't have a track of the time at all that's the day he got the news yeah that's the day he got the news that day he still had to work got family to support etc he made a mistake we accept that as you can see this is his normal routine chair he does this every night when he's closing up same same on same on every night two trolleys in shutter down you play the next video yeah yeah could you yeah sorry so is that just a wednesday that was that was one of four nights that mr killich sent in sorry next one yeah yeah first one was um 14th of august yeah yeah i've just extracted the shifts that he was working during the closing and this is another day he's working 16th of september you can see the time stamp one minute to one o'clock again white hair guy who had that they you know probably beyond the hours showing he's closing on time they could put some waves trolleys in and they're shutting the promises i can see the next one it's okay yeah you can go to the next party it is 17th the second foods and vegetable trolley comes in and again you can see the same person again with the white hair is his shift closing and the 19th of september these dates were chosen by us uh because the date we've been informed uh was i think 24th september so i'm just trying to demonstrate without having notification from the council that he had they had you know traded beyond the hours it was his daily routine on a normal days and the same question you haven't gotten a recording of that i haven't been asked to provide that was you asked to provide these no i just wouldn't i've just tried to show um six normal days of uh closures yeah may i go back to that video again i think i want to lead into that sorry what number six yes but do we don't want to show you can you can defer to it once you yes the last one i'll show later because i'll touch that when we come to it please yes of course could i just say because he's got that gentleman has got somebody else there working with him and he should post things did the other person not notice that it was three quarters of an hour past closing time past the licensing time no he didn't admit to um knowing he's gone past time no it was a genuine error on the guy's part but but yeah i mean you can see from every other night he's there that's a sample that that's right yes provided that they do close i mean that last one was over 59 the the customer that had gone in was served in time and they don't they don't mess around with it yes sorry just going back to the house there's two people they work together engine and you're saying that the secondary person who was working there did not actually realize it had gone over time to close the shop that's three quarters of an hour gram because she said they're saying they just didn't realize every other night they because you know this premise has been operating two years under this ownership they never trade beyond except this occasion they never trade beyond these hours and usually the night shift manager who says you know we are closing down and it was a kind of routine they never you know you know they never realized they're going beyond their hours and just happened okay yes there was one of one of them i mean there is no other evidence that from your the council of cameras jobs cameras or officers seeing them are open after eight o'clock sorry one o'clock um we say it was a one-off chair and it was a genuine mistake okay i apologize it certainly has not been please continue graham thanks um obviously the staff you've heard about staff training yes and would that independent be yourselves no this this was the staff training they did um i'm talking going in the future with st peters college wasn't it that was organized through narts and so that that was independent right so moving on in the future yeah if if there is training mine did yes that's will be the professional trainers okay external so that will be taken care of between mr mr and lots okay right we've covered the the i think the first incidents to the end say the clients are truly sorry that the incident after ourselves took place but i draw your attention to paragraphs 17 to 20 of the agenda or the of on the supplementaries sorry paragraph what page oh it's not numbered up in mind paragraph number again then it's paragraph 17. page starts here but um page eight yes thank you because my staff received the letter dated 23rd of september um you'll see there we've this is where we've reported that video and it sets out the circumstances of that gentleman there that he sets out his normal closing procedures that's on the video and the knights in question he closed at one zero zero fifty nine one zero zero fifty two um on the 20th he just had that news and i would imagine having dealt with people from the turkish kurdish community before they share that together it's not something one keeps so the other guy could well have been impacted by it as well um sorry my best friend is um he lost his just an example his uncle in earthquake all right sticking it up they share that sort of thing so the other bloke could have been just as all right but it's a question that you never asked no i i haven't i haven't met the gentleman personally right it's it what it did happen you don't you just don't ask that sort of thing however going back to the 20th this clearly was a one-off we have no other evidence to say this shop opens every night till three o'clock it was never claimed it was never claimed that the shop was over so we what we're saying is it was genuinely a one-off and he made a mistake all right you to consider that yes when you're considering it i ask you to consider the the evidence you've seen in the videos the mitigation you've heard of the circumstances as to why this happened um over the past three years that they've run this shop it is i think it is three years now it's just october anyway sorry three years this is the first time they've been all before a committee um we've heard they've passed three test purchases for underage so hardly a shop that's run in a bad way to fight to you know normally places do file failed test purchases i've dealt with enough over the last 20 years they didn't they passed the test purchase during the day with children involved so i would suggest that indicates responsible operators on top of that uh mrs cotta voluntarily stop selling the high strength siders recognize the problem in the area um they want to work with the licensing authority so they they weren't asked to do it they did it voluntarily and she has kept to that on top of that most of the conditions that licensing um have asked for they've agreed to the only ones you've heard of that they're not agreeing to are they are asking you not to impose are the maximum strength beers the um multi packs and the small bottles of spirits the reason behind it is because the after-hours sales that wasn't impacted or involved in those items it was a straight after-hour sale they exceeded the time they know it was wrong and it's been dealt with and not repeated never occurred before no evidence before you so we think it's hard as i say given the fact that they've been through covid all the other things they've been through prices i mean i go shopping we all do prices are going up daily and that's we won't comment on why but they are it's a fact of life they have to buy it and then try to sell it to the local community who are their customer base you've seen the three letters of support the good letters of support from local residents who will support this shop speak highly of mr and mrs cassie bar and their the staff which is wonderful to see in this day and age hard as i say everything to me run friendly shop not out to destroy its own local community or break the law we're asking you to to not influence those conditions in this case because i mean she deals with it in i've lost the paragraph myself now um bear with me i should have put the black lines beside every page but this is because i've got it yeah sorry um mr hunt sets out the statements in paragraph the conditions in paragraph this is referred to their paragraph 21 in her statement paragraph 22 mrs cossibar says these three conditions are impractical and unnecessary in specific context of the alleged out of sales incident and implementing the conditions would present significant operational challenges and negatively of impact to our business if i'm sure you've read if you could see the reasons underneath why she refers to the the restriction um the minimum pack size no less than two units it's fair to say a lot of customers do buy single gains they're not all straight drinkers i mean i've even done it myself on two occasions when you know i know but you i mean people do so it does it does go on and we consider it's a restriction that if you're looking at why the review arose and the incident occurred that wouldn't have made any difference they sold after hours by mistake it could have been two cans it could have been four cans that's the point i'm making it's not justified to impose those conditions um that in essence is is my view on that if you're we're also looking at the spirits less than 35 like that doesn't need to be restricted i mean i can't stand if we're talking about shops and things like that but not to make them sell from 10 centuries and push it up to 35 that is a massive restriction to put on their business which is otherwise well run and there's no evidence against that so we're asking you um to consider it not appropriate or proportionate to provide that because the review has not been bought on those grounds we've talked about what they've been through what they will go you know are still going through and i i i say quite categorically in my opinion this is a well-run shop we've got no hard evidence of the street drinkers using yes we've got we've seen all the litter in the area i mean we don't get me wrong we get it in essex as well people throw cans away there is a problem that i'm aware of outside of these shops having dealt with another premises people do from the flats dump their bags we've seen the black i've been there several times now the black bags are over the pavement shops but as they've said in their statement passers-by who may have bought their alba somewhere else we'll throw the can on top of the plastic bottles it happens it's not unique to this area so we can't blame inland supermarket for every bit of rubbish that's in their street i've seen the footage that's video six isn't it yeah where they go out on a nightly basis or a daily basis and pick up the stuff outside their shop um appropriate to to show them can we show you number six first this is this shows our client staff going out rubbish outside so they do address that issue in as far as the front of their shops maybe something needs to be done about the residents dumping their their bags out there and that's this is the second shop in that area that has said that to us that it's residents do put their stuff out um the other premises had a uh you can probably see it further up there's a bin outside but um it's not being called by the shopkeepers as i say they are responsible and do address it but we're looking at a record back at the shock since 2021 of one incident where they opened late and failed the two after hours sales no sales for children um no failed test purchases for underage no noise complaints have been made nothing from um environmental protection they haven't made a representation and complained about the late night noise so when we're looking at the picture of the area it's not coming from greenland supermarket and the litter we regret sincerely what's happened with the that underage sale it was a shock to the mrs crossy bar and we didn't want it to happen she never did before hasn't since given i think clear reasons why we're asking not to impose those three particular conditions she's readily agreed everything else gone further agreed the amendments that connor wanted voluntarily stopped selling high strength cider which is a drink of preference that i've known about for over 20 years or street drinkers um they don't sell it anymore when you're looking at your decision as i mentioned revocation quite clearly in my mind revocation or suspension in this case not justified um your decision of course but clearly not justified one incident in four years that they've apologized for and not repeated i would even go as far as to say that the three conditions are not justified i've dealt with many cases in this borough where they have been just in my submission to you today they're not justified and i ask you to impose them for the reasons we've given the hardship to the shop thank you thank you um is there anything you would like to add it's okay we're fine left house she's about to start with the question thank you um i'd like to ask mrs crossy bar is it a sir um what experience you have of street drinkers in that in in relating to your shop what experience we have yes yeah so when we first bought the shop i remember the person who we took the license on said that this is an important issue in the area so we knew that would be a challenge for us when we took on the shop um i was pregnant back then i'm gonna give a bit a little quick context and um so in october 2021 and i said to myself if this is not a safe place for my husband and i plus my baby to be are we okay to buy this shop and so we tried our best uh to keep this area safe from my husband first of all because uh i mean he's there uh or every day myself but also from from my my daughter so we knew beforehand that this was an issue but what we've also been told is that it's getting better that it was getting better at the time so this uh we said okay this is going better we can we can deal with it and we can try to to do that but we've had issue with strength drinkers as well on a not a daily basis but we've uh we've been working with the police on several occasions we've had issue as well so we would not want to fuel this issue more than it already is especially when i go there with my daughter i wouldn't want to have people around the shop really not really sober so we've had experience quite a lot um in this area but we always try to um you know make it safe for us as well um could could you elaborate what sort of issues have you had i mean do people come in yeah do people come in they they can be um um aggressive loud noisy uh with i don't uh with uh they can also damage the shop on several occasions if we do not sell what they want or if we challenge them to ask if they suffer or not so um these incidents do happen um regularly but they do come in quite frequently and frequently yes um refusing do you keep a refusal vote do you have a record of sales you've refused or one to the mother yes we do my husband is in charge of this part so yes we do we do have a so the one on the 21st of august would would have been recorded as a refusal no what sorry would the this the attempted sale on the 21st of august forgot the right date should have been yes that would have been recorded as a regular sale but it does happen quite often that they come in yes uh yeah so they're not deterred by the fact that they never get served in your premises yeah no um no well um so what so it's getting better of course my husband especially um compared to uh the other employee customer to see is way more assertive um so whenever he's around uh uh or myself um the people who tend to come and and the people who tend to try again know that we are that we are around and they stop coming after a certain time but it's like an endless thing um um if we know the majority of street drinkers in the area we know them i mean we've we see them every day so we do not sell to them uh but there are obviously people we do we're not sure of we you can't really judge a person uh by its cover uh but uh sometimes when we challenge people and they're not you know street drink drink drink it does happen um thank you thank you that's that's right for the man okay so any questions jenna okay um hey you heard earlier from the case officer about those different premises that's aligned and are surrounding your shops and if i remember correctly and if i've made my notes correctly that none of them sold beers lagers or stouts over 6.5 is that correct it's one 6.5 now um the police student generally went and done some homework and took loads and loads of photographs um as you could see in the main agenda now we've counted what five shops is that including hers five shops about five shops four five off licenses yes that sell alcohol okay um so could you explain just briefly in and around your shop where all that paraphernalia and all those beer cans are dropped and high strength beer cans uh where do you think they come from just awfully if all the shops sell five 6.5 the highest where do you think all those cans those high strength beers cans come from the beer cans come from the beer can come from the beer can come from the beer can i don't know but we're just checking please do all right and whilst he's there so um um so do you believe selling high strength lagers and beers i mean why why would you want to sell such high strength beers when no one else is maybe apart from tesco's they haven't you repeat the question sorry in your high strength beers you know that we have a problem with this yes okay and you know they prefer the stronger beers so why would you sell the stronger beers knowing that this is their preference of drink well don't serve to drink but if well obviously you know the individuals are known in the area and as mr miss kocheva said earlier most of the studio increase are not known to all members of staff they are rarely refused right and if you were to go in to have a stronger beer as an individual who lives nearby or you might be able to you know purchase one but we are refusing those high strength to street drinkers especially right to make sure they will not add to the problems excuse us one second also i was going to check the dates these um the list uh i think it's on the original agenda right yeah the point was 20 yes they would take age 20 the photograph yes seven yes 7th of october they are all dated so they were prior to the restrictions were imposed by the licensing committee on their reviews it could be i'm sorry to say that again sorry photos chair were taken on the 7th of october in the main agenda were those what mr kilich and i are wondering is the other reviews were held recently not you know prior to sorry i was asking earlier i wanted to get the time frame yes these were 7th of october yes those other shops may well have still had the permission to sell higher strength beers so we can't point all the finger no no that's fine what i'm i asked earlier for steve to confirm when the reviews took place did you get another second right that's i think it's just up your list is on page 20 the last dates as well 7th of october and 34 september so taking into account the appeal period at 7th of october those shops would have been allowed to sell the like sylvinia yeah yeah so just yeah i'm just going to give you the ones you're just right and uh iceland which is not totally sorry oh iceland yeah unit a at the gate that's four to 20 woodgrange road yeah um do you just want this alcohol controls or times yeah okay and scroll down sorry so iceland have it was actually a licensing committee hearing held on the 8th of may 2012 yeah sale of alcohol 8 to 11 every day cctv conditions uh alcohol should not be displayed within three meters of entrance uh premises shall not sell any beers lagers or cider with an abv of over six percent where single cans of beer lagers and siders contain 440 ml or less they shall be no more than basically no less than four my time so no singles next shop tesco's have you got the tesco's so i'm just going to i was on this delivery you should write that one so tesco's iceland six percent and that was on the 8th of may which is 28 woodgrange road what month is this tesco's it's okay six till midnight monday to sunday the alcohol controls if this thing moves uh again conditions have been taxed by licensing committee held on the 11th of june 2015 uh supply of alcohol six to midnight um still containers cctv uh premises shall not sell beer cider lager with an abv of 5.5 unless prior agreed with the police all right that's a different so tesco's from 2015 hasn't sold any beer lager stouts over 5.5 percent and less agreed with the police that's correct that's what that condition states conditioner six uh it's also where single cans of beer lagers and ciders contain four 40 mil or less they shall be sold in packs of no lesson or less than four um challenge 25 deliveries so i'm just reading the rest of them while here is anything else um yeah so these two shops are part of the four that surrounds their premises these are the ones just right on woodgrains that's correct yeah obviously um five five woodgrains road the supermarket uh so the off licenses on the corner all right so tesco's iceland then you've got azona you're going back to rob and you have green and signal and signals right so out of all of those so we are absolutely clear because there's loads of writing i've got notes everywhere all of the shops do not sell anything above 6.5 unless agreed on tesco's with the police in beers and lagers yes with one exception for a sauna that's got the exception with the nigerian guinness and the guinness extra extra style extra so everything else there might be another one of them premises that have that similar condition with the exception or oh yes right okay right so um can i just ask the clarity that the original condition steam or was that imposed at the review no these these are the common licenses i'm going by that's that that would be post yeah they're obviously the ones are sauna five woodgrains road um and would be from the reviews yeah bronze bronze is a restaurant but that had separate that's not enough license okay only a restaurant based um signal i don't believe it's had any review and they were conditions that were agreed during their license application or part of the operating schedule with okay responsible authorities just for clarity so prior if i may sorry so prior to those reviews could a sauna and the woodgrange shop sell higher strength or were they limited then yes there was no conditions to their licensees so it goes back to my point on the 7th of october when those pictures were taken that litter could have come from any of those shops it could have thank you it is possible um chair if i may assist i just want to ask again at the test code what is the restriction on siders again say five oh i'm just going to wait for the right license sorry i've got to scroll around on this laptop space for um 28th yet to tesco's uh proposition also beers cybers lager with an abb of over 5.5 unless prior agreed with the police unless they i guess they agreed because i was at the shop tesco on 10th of october there are still in black tones with a picture of 5.5 um um really one yeah that's glad we have to be a question to legal or five all right evidence has not been because it's not been submitted okay fine yeah obviously i can refer i can verbally perhaps say that i have been at tesco on 10th of october and i have taken photos uh and i have seen uh cider bottle ciders are available for sale at the tesco but the point is like graham made all these pictures the items that we have seen on the pictures that came from any other premises that's fine okay so um one question i'd like to ask you guys before i continue is when was the last time anyone has been down to that premises the last latest date greenland well during the states it's changed okay thank you no but just want to that that was that the last time okay chair that's if to call him to show his photographs that's the 7th of october october 2024 right thank you um so uh this is probably my last question and it's you know uh not nothing that's detrimental but just to be clear you've agreed the conditions and the rewording of the police and the conditions is put through you've agreed them in the bars of three yes that's right isn't it because we don't look only accepted three that we spoke well that's okay i have to raise it because she did mention it earlier sorry um just for clammy um they said agreed all the other conditions but there is a condition which is pretty much condition four which says all alcohol products to be marked with a label marker pen statement or name and postcode i think with me i mean depending on what the committee decide if they do post said i'm not i'm not going to die in a ditch over that one right yeah i'm told i think mr killish has made it clearer they don't actually accept the bottle marking condition either they don't they don't that's four yeah four is that is that right yes and could you tell me why why that is i will say i i i can answer that uh uh with thousands of restaurant takeaways and uh supermarkets with us who were imposed during the review this particular condition it's so hard to comply you bring the uh stock to the market you have to put the minister make sure they're all each labeled before they appears on the shelves some of them may last you know maybe you know kept refrigerated for a longer period where humidity takes the labels off it's so hard to keep a track on each item that has been sold it's not practical at all and what about pen marking and marking i don't know if there's something it's going to be very hard to apply okay yeah thank you so much yeah can i just um consult yeah this is yes fair enough just to clarify the the reason they don't have it is because they have an epos still system they just scan it in so they don't need that's why they have pricings on display not on the games so that would be another reason it duplicates the work effort doesn't it it's extra costs so if we have to put labels on every can when they can scan in and just the price off and that will bring it up presumably if the person's on the 25 etc that's not what we're talking about we're looking at bottle market i know why you're looking at bottles we they don't have to do it at the moment because they got the because that's what i'm saying i would have been done right and if i made with the different um with with the four conditions that you do not agree with i would have thought you'd have made it easier if you're saying that you want to sell these strong lagers and beers to say well fine i'll have the bar um can marking on those particular ones so we can show you it's not us um that are selling to street drinkers and littering all over so we won't have to be bringing you back just if we're minded not to revoke or or to suspend or what have you um it would make more sense it's like you just kind of want everything so let me just go back to to so okay my my last question hello hi okay my last question is um what percentage of your shop is alcohol and what percentage is grocery use the culture and grocery use the good charcoal and more than 20 percent isn't the umc alcohol is this example 25 25 yeah yeah yeah that's what 24 25 percent share up now i've said it myself it's front of the two side shelves if you like including behind the counter so it goes down to just past the counter on the right hand side and there's an aisle as you go into the shop where you saw the yeah and it stops just past the corner of that aisle so i would say 20 20 20 20 yeah space 30 less space for that for sure oh no the retail display yeah did you make a decision second i don't want you if they want that no fair enough okay right and last question i think for now is what percentage of your profits is alcohol and what percentage is so you're saying 25 percent of your profits is down to alcohol and you mentioned you bought the property yeah did i say that yeah so sorry i don't know we we are licensed at least oh i didn't buy it for your property now you're renting you're renting it and how long is your lease for the lease yeah or is it just a rolling rental yeah yeah just a rolling one is 11 years now left right okay i think i've exhausted myself any um okay a hypothetical question a big is but considering the six percent okay so that's what obviously we would like but you've heard that higher percentages can be arranged by agreement so are there any particular fears that suppose you you did stick to a main six percent are there any things suppose you might say well could we have that and could we have that for instance uh uh If this diverges of $6rose , which makes you buy outright rice, make that money or they do? Also, we need to buy it. I see. A feat to decrease £6 whereas at the chart, you should pay off to down below. Without, then you can buy the rate thing. Okay, first time I的 the risk. Okay, come on. T-Oh! If such condition were to be imposed, you would like to be carrying or selling Carlsberg, Super Skoll and Special Brew, Carlsberg, Super Skoll, Special Brew, and Kestrel. Which is the last one? Kestrel, yes. Any further questions? Just really, the other one that is so important for us is the 20 or 35. I mean, we'd want to stick to that because the street drinkers so often go for the 20. No, yeah. Well, we would like to carry on, be able to sell 20 and 35 CLs. I personally have never heard of any street drinker buying an energy drink, which is expensive to add miniatures. Person never witnessed that. I've heard that. We don't know if that photograph was taken, that item was consumed by street drink or not. It could have been anyone, but we are... Are you spraying the bottle on the road? Possibly. Well, we need to link the real evidence to the, not the assumption. Come and stay over for a couple of days. Come and stay over, you'll soon see. But anyway... Do you really want the 20s? Because... Anybody, you know, may require to buy a miniature, I do. So why... You do quite high sales on them. Excuse me? You do quite high sales on them. We're talking about 20 Centiliters. Yes. It's the old quarter bottle. It's not unusual for licenses. The miniatures, the 10 Centiliters, yes. 20 Centiliters is the old quarter. What was that? Top security. No, no, no. She won't. Happy with 20. Yeah. They would be happy with 20. Sorry? They would be happy with 20 or not. 20 CL and 25 CL, you might see that. Not the limit. Not the limit. Not the shot, you know, the 10 Centiliters and all that. All right. Thank you. Sorry, Chair. I'm going to have to put my hand up, because I'm not sure they're clear on what they're saying here. Yeah. I think you need to make it clear what's actually being discussed, because 5 CLs are the small ones. The small ones, yes. We have the 10 CLs, then we go up to the 100 bottles, which are the 20 CLs, and then bigger bottles, 35. So the half flask... So the half flask... So the half ones with 20 CL bottles. Right. We have the 35 CLs and the bigger bottles. We do have some 10 CLs, which are, I would say, and then we've got the tiny little miniatures. Yeah. All right. They need to be clear on what they're saying. Thank you very much. Thank you for stepping in. No problem. No problem. We... So we are clear. We do not want any restrictions on miniatures. Either... Whether it's... Whether it's 5 CL or 10 CL or 20 CL, we don't want any restrictions on miniatures. Okay. That's okay. That's okay. I'll show you. They don't want no restrictions on sizes, miniatures. True. No. We won't go. Okay. Of course they're there. Any further questions for me? No, I... I got... All right. Further questions? No. No, you're okay. All right. I think we're finished here. Yeah. So are there any questions you would like to ask? Oh, please. Okay. Please go ahead. Thank you. Thank you. You showed some CCTV off. The premises being closed on Greenpoint. We've had a sale about twice in one night. You said that the shop assistant had some bad news. Is that right? That night? That day? Do you think that if somebody had had bad news, they would want to show up early and go home rather than stay open later? Because I certainly would. That's not what we said. Sorry. May I... Yes. He's asking me questions. We said that he lost track of time. Didn't you? You said you had... Yeah, but he lost track of time. In my view, what I'm trying to say is I would... Most people in this room would say, oh, I've had some bad news. I need to deal with this or I need to do something. I need to go early rather than stay late. Yeah. But that's... It is objective. Well, it is. It can be seen like that. Okay. Thank you. Anyway, the... You say 25% of the premises is alcohol. What? 20... Oh, yes. 25. 25. 25. 25. 25. 25. 25. 25. 25. 25% profits. 25% profits. Yeah. Oh, okay. 20%. How much of that is high-bent alcohol? Do you look at our percentage and... Yeah. I don't know in the front... I don't know the issue... Yeah, absolutely. But I don't know... It really varies, you know, I can't get any... Who buys the stock? Who purchases the stock? buying stock... Right. So you must know what you purchased? We made mad a update. Or about five percent5. 5? Not a lot. A lot. Sometime is high strength beer, or sidel. single cans single cans who would buy that my uh i have so many customers i buy yes yes yeah they are buying here so the license holder said on several occasions on a number of occasions she repeated it quite regularly they had people come in the shop trying to buy high strength beers and you would refuse them is that right yeah so you refused to sell it to them um and you said in one particular thing they tried to smash the shop up or made a nuisance in the shop wouldn't it be better for you that to stop these people coming in and saying you don't sell it so they wouldn't come in and call your staff any problems if you're only selling five percent which is not a lot of i mean five percent is quite i get your point but the reason why we're here today is because we sold alcohol after the hours and not this precise type of beer being the issue but the area is so i don't know why i would reduce my stuff for something that is not a problem for my shop if that makes sense but it is a problem for your shop to the area but if it's a problem for the area i'm happy to find solutions with people with the community to help police to help the borough as well to find a compromise but only if this is backed up with evidence that this is the real issue coming from my shop i'm happy to find solutions as we've always done so far when you sent a letter we've reduced we've stopped because you said this could be an issue um but what i'm trying to say is that if this is a real issue coming from my shop i'm happy to discuss it and find solutions always okay i just need a little bit of clarity on this and i think i asked you earlier before we even started this review was brought um to the committee because of a breach and selling out of hours two street drinkers not street drinkers oh good truth could you could you refresh my mind it was on the grounds from the police it was behavior um public safety and yours was what was yours again uh yeah so based on it being an offense an out of hours selling of alcohol it doesn't we have to take into consideration whole picture that the the licensed objectives that have been brought in representation and how we could make that fit within your premises so regardless of out of hours we've been asking you many questions about the strength of your beers who you sell your beers to and you've come back on occasions by saying it's mainly to do with the out of hours but that is not quite the case is it well i think mr mr hunt is the one who's brought it and he can clarify for you but i think i would i would say if i'm not pre-empting what mr hunt was is going to say that there are at least two grounds here that one we've had out of hours selling of alcohol and then and tied with that it's also the asb and the street drinking problem in the area so it's not just about out of hours that's how i perceive it that maybe yeah okay so then that falls within the realms of the four licensing objectives right so we're all clear right so it's not just out of hours and it's not just that specific thing that we have to look at as a committee um and we have to weigh up all the odds to make sure that whatever our decision is is proportionate to our decision in the purposes right okay so are there any further questions no no no further questions okay um oh that's what i'm saying any further questions sorry my name's anyway i want to work for you guys okay i don't want it to be a them and us thing okay um like the legal fellow said beyond all reasonable doubt okay we work on a balance of probabilities in here um there was one time the council come and they tried to purchase an after sale and it was effective um are you aware of any other occasions that the council came in and tried to buy after sales other than that one on the 21st of september yeah are you aware of any other time that the council had come in and tried to do an after sale has it been mentioned at any point in here today no no no no so on a balance of probabilities they tried once and they had 100 hit right but they tried on other occasions selling alcohol to people under the 18th which has been successful and i invite you to come again after this one of incident that we took very seriously we took all the um precautionary measures for that not to happen again we are young a young shop young people we unfortunately we were we weren't there at that moment an employee has made a mistake we took it very seriously we took all the measures necessary and you can come back any time from now on and see that this will never ever happen again because we took that warning and this is very seriously do you feel over the last couple of because when i come over from all the first april do you feel that the area that your shop is in that it's improved um that you're getting nice not nice people yes not nice people visiting you do you feel that the air is improved in the last couple of months but if we if we've been there for the last three years it's we've had nice people coming in it's not always a problem we live in south whitford it's very nice and push area and we've had issues with street drinkers but also theft in other shops and still itself whispered so it will happen even if we have all the restrictions in place these people are around it will happen um it's always been the same pretty much we still have people coming in trying but we still stop them since that day so we're trying our office and i'll be the first happy of this progress yeah exactly so that's what we're trying to do um work in progress and then absolutely i'm asking you do you think it's improved you think we're having some kind of effect in the area right um did they answer okay fine excuse me sorry sorry colin just coming back to you on the day that you went and they were selling alcohol i think it was you uh at 117 what was it yeah when they were sitting at 117 in the morning could you remember the conversation that you had with the people that were serving um of the staff that was that's a simple answer um i didn't have any conversation apart from which is can i purchase this beer past the hours right so you never purchase them right so it wasn't a compliance it was good just go into the test just outside the hours and go away that's why i must stay on the second visit it was another tp was it yeah that was yeah that was getting more confusing unfortunately there's only three of us so i know up on a lot of things it's second visit at 147 i think it is yeah was that just to teach straight tp went in bought got out that's all i needed to know right are there any other questions that need to be asked no thank you wonderful okay right so what i'm going to do now i'm actually going to who's summing up from all right okay would you like to say yes we've heard everything we know what the areas like um we've this would be the only preferences without in high strength we're selling somebody selling off the fence if it's allowed and i haven't got a problem with the premises and the working in there or the management of that premises and they do they do um work with us or they have done and so the you know it's not a personal thing uh i just want to clear the area up as we all do and i think that by agreeing or or putting these conditions on i'm okay with the 20c obviously they've said they want to sell miniatures which i'm not happy about um i'm and if and and the six percent uh i think that's that it falls in every other premise in the area um i know we shouldn't blame it but um there is a problem of street drinking people and high strength fears in that area and uh i believe this this premises do sell to that do sell my video shows and i know like they didn't sell on the day but he was so shocked that they wasn't going to sell to him that's and i walked out and they realized that they shouldn't be saved which they didn't but that was because i was there i truly believe that he was so shocked that he couldn't buy from that that premises on that day so i'd invite you to um put them conditions on the license chair right okay um i asked if there was any more questions that's a summing up i'm afraid that's that's going to be it for today well for now um yes we are going to meeting uh you'll be able to go outside we're going to go into deliberations and when we're when we've made our decision we'll be back reconvene and give you your decision our decision to you okay to say at least half an hour and we may be a while so yeah okay we've got your number graham so um um this meeting is now adjourned thank you thank you everyone for coming back so promptly we have made a decision today um would you like to read out the decision yeah thank you having considered all submissions including three representations made by the residents the licensing subcommittee have decided to modify the conditions as set out to the agenda by the licensing officers with the exception of the cctv condition which will follow the version set out by the metropolitan police details of these conditions will be specified in the decision letter the decision letter with reasons will be sent to the applicant within five working days thank you thank you and parties who have taken part in this hearing just as a reminder may appeal against the decision to the magistrates court within 21 days okay thank you very much everybody for coming um this meeting is now closed thank you