Transcript

Thank you and welcome everyone to this meeting of the licensing subcommittee on the 4th of December 2024. The first item of business for tonight will be for the appointment of a chair owing to the chair being unable to attend this meeting. And I'll now invite councillors French and Justin to to agree who will be chairing the meeting. And I will hand that to the councillors now. Thank you. I'll get my I'll be the chair if you fancy. Oh, I'm happy to chair just. Go ahead then. I'll be in absent. I did email. Apologies for that. Thank you. In that case, that would be unanimous given there is two councillors, but it's a formal decision. So with that being completed, we will now move to the remainder of the items on the business with councillor French in the chair for the meeting. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Welcome to this meeting of the sub of the licensing subcommittee, which is held as a remote meeting is being webcast. And please bear with us if there are any technical issues. I think we've already started. My name is councillor Katrina French, and I'm chairing this meeting. I will now invite the other attendees to introduce themselves in the following order councillors, officers, applicants and representations. Over to councillor Justin. Hello, I'm councillor Mark Justin, councillor for Nine Elms. Paul Greeno, legal advisor. Julie, you're on mute. Apologies. My name is Julie Hopkins. I'm a principal licensing officer dealing with Wandsworth applications. My name is Michael Flowers, and I'll be the lead democratic services officer supporting the meeting tonight. Hi, everyone. I'm Becky Hickey. I'll be webcasting the meeting. And I will just add Rebecca Hickey will be supporting in a democratic services role for tonight and will be present for the decision room as well. Thank you. And over now to our applicants. Sorry, Mr. Chan, we can't hear you at the moment. Let me go first. This is Candice. I'm also the applicant, one of the applicant, the owner of the restaurants. Thank you, everyone. Can anyone hear me? No? Yes, we can hear you. Sorry about that. I'm Chi Chan, one of the business owners, and I'm also the major applicant for this application, the license. Thank you. And back over to you, Mr. Chan. Hello, I'm Dennis Chan. I'm one of the partners of Shuti Wang. Thank you, everybody. Is there anyone else? I've missed Mr. Flowers. Everyone else, declare, introduce themselves. That is, Chair. Thank you. Wonderful. Over to Agenda Item 1 and 2. Are there any apologies for absence or declarations of interest for any of the items on the agenda? If yes, please could you confirm the apology for absence and the declaration of interest, Mr. Flowers? Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Chair. This is an apology absence from Councillor McLeod, who's unable to attend the meeting tonight. Okay. I believe then we have no declarations of interest. We'll proceed to Item 4. We will now consider the application for a new premises license in respect of premises known as Tusuki, Raman, Ground Floor and Basement, 288 Upper Richmond Road. That's an S-W-S. We'll proceed to Item 4. And I invite the licensing officer to introduce the application. Thank you, Councillor. An application has been received from Tusuki, Raman Limited for a new premises license at the premises known as Tusuki, Raman, Basement and Ground Floors, 288 Upper Richmond Road, London, SW15 6TH. The applicant is seeking a premises license to allow the sale of alcohol for consumption on the premises between 11 a.m. until 11 p.m. Monday to Sundays. The proposed hours of licensable activities and opening times are laid out in Appendix B to the report. The application was advertised as required under the legislation and this has resulted in the receipt of one representation from other persons. Representations will also receive from two of the responsible authorities and the Council's Trading Standards Officer and the Metropolitan Police Licensing Section. All the conditions requested by those officers were accepted by the applicant and have been incorporated into the operating schedule in Appendix A of the report. These will become conditions of the license if it is granted. No representations were received from any other responsible authorities. The application for on-sales of alcohol is within Wandsworth Council's licensing policy guideline hours. Councilors, I have no further matters to raise in respect to this application, but I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you. Thank you, Ms Hopkins. So does anyone, does the subcommittee have any questions for the license in office? Over to you, Councillor Justin, if you do have any questions. Are these premises currently licensed and this is a change or it's a complete shock? It's a new application. I think the premises was previously a DIY or garden shop. And have the applicants held a license themselves elsewhere? That I wouldn't know. Maybe they could tell us. Yeah. We don't currently process any license. That's why we're applying one. Okay. Any more questions, Mr. Justin? No, no. That's fine. I read the application and thank you for choosing Wandsworth as a place to start a business. Just to check. So the alcohol being requested will be served with food. Primarily, you see yourselves as a restaurant that would like to sell alcohol along with people's bills. Yeah, exactly. We offer casual dining and casual drinking. The environment is not for heavy drinking. So I don't see any point. This application should get refused, really. So we ask for this meeting just because we're also aware there's an objection from Mr. Felt. So we think it's appropriate to attend this meeting just to answer any inquiries. Thank you. So just to confirm, it's primarily a restaurant that would like to serve alcohol along with food. But if people come in for like a light snack and so forth, then there'll be seven. Because I saw in the application, Miss Hopkins, that it said no vertical drinking allowed. Yes, that's correct. That's correct. Yes, that was probably a police representation. So that would have been a police condition. OK, I have no further questions at this point. Are there any other questions of clarification on anything that has been stated? As a reminder, both the applicant and representations will have a chance to address the subcommittee. And this should only be where you would like clarification on something stated by the speaker. F yes. Thank you. Please take your question. F no. I can see no request for further questions of clarification. So I'll just pause there. Does anyone have any questions of clarification at this point? OK. I will now invite the applicant to address the subcommittee. And you will have five minutes to speak, after which questions may be asked of you. So over to the applicants now. Thank you. Because it's my first time doing this, I really have, I need some guidelines, guide, help to that. What kind of questions should I ask? Because I believe the application, I mentioned all the four licensing objectives in the application already. And I don't really have any more to ask because I think I acquired my personal license. I educate the staff in the premises already about, like, sales of alcohol, what they need to be aware and we compliance with the interior of the premises. So we are doing all the things we are aware to provide a safe environment for our customers. Thank you for that answer, Mr. Chan. I can see that you've got your hand raised, Mr. Flowers. So would you like to come in at this point? Yes. And I think myself and Mr. Greeno might be saying the same thing. But for Mr. Chan, that is exactly what the committee would want to hear in your statement. So this five minute opportunity is an opportunity for you perhaps to tell us a bit more about yourselves as people, as applicants, what you maybe see, the purpose of the business and how you'll fit into the community. And obviously you've mentioned things such as your staff, you've undertaken training as well, but it's very much just an opportunity for us to tell the councillors why you would like them to grant the application. And in the absence of the representation, you have that opportunity as well, perhaps, to just address any comments they've made that you'd like to do so at this stage. But I think before I hand back to the chair, perhaps, Paul, I think you might have been going in a similar route of providing some guidance. So I'll pass that to you. Thanks, Mr. Greeno, come in. Yes, slightly similar. Although what I was going to say is because the applicant hasn't done this type of presentation before, if it would assist, I'm happy to ask some leading questions so that they can give the information to the committee, if you think that that will assist. Yes, they will be great. Yeah, if you have any questions, you can ask, because I'm also the first time to do something like hearing, because I'm new to UK. OK, so if you have any question to ask about a restaurant and what we can do to adapt to the community, you just ask me. I'm happy to answer. Are you happy for me to proceed, councillors, to asking questions? Yeah, yeah, yeah, please. OK, right. You've made the application. You're aware of what you are required to do if the licence is granted. You're aware that you're required to comply with conditions. Yes, we will comply with all the conditions imposed, such as Scheme 25. So you've accepted all of the conditions that Trading Standards and the police have suggested? Yeah, we do. We accept all of the conditions. And there won't be any vertical drinking by that sort of people just standing at the bar? That's not allowed. No vertical drinking is allowed in the county's office. We will strictly comply with this. And is it going to be table service that you'll be operating? Yeah, it will be majorly table service. And for takeaway, we are not allowing the purchase of any of the county. And you've seen the objection that's been raised by Mr Fellows. Yeah. What steps will you take to ensure that none of your customers engage in public urination in the courtyard area? I think that objection is kind of quite personal because there's things happen. But if you want to know that, we can explain what happened. But to answer Mr. Fallon's concern is like, we have enough toilets for our customers. We won't oversell alcohol to people that look drunk already, like slightly drunk. And we are not selling alcohol to underage. So I don't see where that's concern coming from. Like, how can I don't know, maybe his cultural thing, but I don't see our customer will treat. But the thing is, is his area, I will suggest him, if he see crime, call the police for help. Let's say if anything's happened in our premises, we will contact the police for help, assistance for sure. See, you don't see yourself or your operation adding to any crime and disorder within the area? Not, not at all. We will help fighting crimes if there's any, any suspicious. And how many toilets do you have at the premises? Two. We have two toilets for the customer and one small toilet for the staff. Yeah, it's quite a big one in terms of the size. Can I just say something, just to put Mr. Chan's mind at rest. As a licensee myself for 40 years, I've held many licenses, multiple licenses and all at the same times. And I've been through this process. What I need to, I think we need to explain to you that the question about urination, however bizarre it may sound to you, is one of the most popular questions that is asked by people who object. And you just have to, and I think you've answered it adequately, but if you think it's very unusual or particular to yourself, you mustn't think that, unfortunately, it's one of the most popular questions that's asked by objectors. And you just need to answer it in the way you have. It's nothing unusual about it, which I'm sure you feel it's unusual because you've never been through this process before. But believe me, I've had it asked of me many times. I fully agree with what Councillor Justin has said. I've attended numerous subcommittees and where there are representations from people other than responsible authorities, a number of them do deal with issues like littering, public urination. So what you would see is just low-level crime and disorder, but which two residents, they actually find something like this quite discressing. So that's why we do take it seriously and we do ask the questions. So it is something that happens with almost any type of application. Thank you, Mr Greeno, and thank you, Councillor Justin, for providing that reassurance to the applicants in a wider, broader perspective. As they said, they're just new to the UK. So I suppose it could be, you don't know what you don't know. So I think that kind of reassurance that this is an unusual question, it's not targeted at you, but we do have to address concerns made by objectors. So I'm really glad that you both interjected there and provided some words of support and a broader context. Mr Chan, I see your hands raised, so back over to you. I just want to clarify, I've been here since 1999, so I kind of quite understand the British culture. The thing I mentioned is like, maybe I used the wrong wording. I don't understand, like, the objection is, for me, it's about, like, making assumptions of what people would do. Thank you, and I apologise if you felt I misinterpreted your kind of, your British as much as me. But exactly that, it's something that we have to address in terms of it has been raised, and it seems that it's not an uncommon thing to be raised, even though for most people in the school, it's uncommon to use a toilet that isn't a toilet. So I'm glad that I think you sufficiently answered and provided reassurances that there's enough restroom facilities within the establishment for both staff and people coming to eat, restauranteurs, that this shouldn't be a problem for your establishment. I don't know, Mr Flowers, if we've, for kind of parity, reached the five-minute mark here, because I haven't been keeping count. I think, I think, given the circumstance in terms of the assistance provided and the questions from Mr Greeno, that it's probably fair that the five-minute statement isn't used in this case. And I'll go back to you, Chair, as I can see some hands raised for this part of the meeting. We've got you on mute, sorry. Back to Mr Cheung. It says Councillor Katrina French, but obviously, no, it's not me there. So I'm going to just say Mr Cheung. Thank you. Can I say something? Yeah, that's you, both of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because after one month run the business, we already know. Right now, we try to close a little bit earlier. For example, at the beginning, I told you that it's from 11, we're selling the alcohol from 11 to 11. But right now, for example, on Sunday, we try to, the last order, make it at 9.30. And then the rest of the day also is 9.30. And then we close on Monday and Tuesday. So that's why we try to limit the effect to the community, to try to shut down our music and everything. And also, we hire some professionals to collect our commercial rubbish twice a week. So I think we try our best to do something which does not affect our neighbourhood. Thank you for sharing that. It sounds like you've got some pragmatic steps in place to minimise disruption to local neighbourhood. We thank you for sharing those. I don't know if anybody else has any questions of clarification for the applicants at this point. Just one more for the applicants. How many people, how many members of staff, including yourselves, will actually have personal licences? Oh, I'm actually, I have the personal licence already. The hours that you'll be keeping, as all licencees do, keep tremendously long hours. It's such a tiring job. I mean, is there a provision for someone else to, a premises licence holder to be their personal licence holder on a day that you've taken off? Actually, we shut down the whole shop on Monday and Tuesday. So the whole team will... Yeah, I can understand that. I've gone over to that myself. I'm closed on Tuesday as well, so I understand. Yes, but we both... And the rest of the time, we'll be there. We both have the plan to have the licence. Just always bear that in mind. I mean, sometimes someone goes on holiday or someone has a child or gets it, and then sometimes they don't... New licencees like yourself don't realise we've got to have someone there who's got a licence. I totally understand you. So we both have a plan to apply a personal licence and give the training to the staff. Okay. Apologies, Chair, you're on mute. Oh, gosh. I'm on some very ditzy this evening. Apologies. I'm saying thank you, Councillor Justin, for that. And also thank you, applicants, for the response. Does... So moving on now, I think I will now... We've invited people that are making representations to address the subcommittee, but my understanding is that... Back to you, Mr Flowers. Yeah. Apologies, Chair. Perhaps before this, can I just check, Miss Hung, is that a legacy hand, or were you still looking to speak? Because I can see a hand raised. I think that's okay. And I can see the licensing... And I can see the licensing officer also has a hand raised before it moves on. Thank you. I think it's just important to point out that this application is just for on-sales. So any takeaway, you cannot provide alcohol. That's just for clarification. Yes, we won't do that. Okay. Perfect. And, Chair, just to then answer your earlier question in terms of, I think, the representation not being present, obviously members will be mindful that there is a written representation that was submitted, which will still be valid. In the slightly unusual absence where there's no representations in attendance, it might be beneficial if you do have any questions to what they've said, or if, obviously, the applicants have any questions on anything that was stated, if it's directed, perhaps, to the licensing officer and legal advisor, and they can, perhaps, try and provide some answers where possible, obviously noting they can't speak on behalf of the representation and their own views. Well, I could just reflect on the objection that was made in terms of how I received it or interpreted it. I think the clarification that's been provided this evening is incredibly useful. And I also wanted to say that, from my perspective, it felt a bit unwarranted that, as you guys didn't have a license already, you were potentially being objected to when it wasn't your patrons that were trespassing or urinating in an inappropriate place. So, just looking at it, I can understand the concerns that the objector makes, but in terms of your license, I kind of felt that would be quite harsh to kind of deem that the license shouldn't be granted because of other people's actions and not necessarily because of the actions of your establishment. So, I kind of just wanted to state that, if that was okay, Mr Greeno. Yes, Chair, that's absolutely fine. What I was going to say is, when considering the representation, it needs to go along beyond, sorry, mere speculation. Not a fear that something will happen, but why something is more likely to happen. Thank you, Mr Greeno. I was going to say, I hope if the objector is watching online, or maybe they chose not to join, that they would be satisfied with the discussion that we've had earlier of the meeting about the facilities being adequate. And, you know, all we can do is not wait and see, but just anticipate this shouldn't be happening because there's adequate provision for it to be avoided. So, I don't have any more questions in regards to the statement that we received. I don't know if, Councillor Justin, I know you discussed earlier that this is quite a normal thing, but at this point, maybe you might want to say something yourself, sir? No, I'm okay. All I would reiterate is that one of them applies for a personal license themselves to not leave themselves in the trap of having a sickness and find out there's actually no responsible person on the premises for the future. So, I would encourage them to go and get a personal license. It's very easy. Thank you for that encouragement. Yeah, we definitely, we do it in the day. Thank you. That's a welcome piece of advice and guidance. It's nice to have someone who's a veteran at these things able to, you know, provide the newcomers and the novices about how to do things with best practice. So, thank you for that wonderful advice and support there, Councillor Justin. Okay, so, if there are any questions or questions or clarifications or anything that has been stated in this recent part of our meeting, if yes, please state your questions, if no, I can see no requests for questions or clarification, but I'll pause there just in case there are anyone to raise a hand either way. Okay, thank you. That concludes this part of the meeting. Again, the decision reasons and any legal guidance given to during this. Oh, go on, Mr Flowers and mine. Apologies, Chair. Just from a procedural point, we do need to provide an opportunity for closing remarks. If the applicant would like, this is generally just a one to two minute opportunity for them just to give you any food for thought, so to speak. And then to you. Applicants, as Mr Flowers has said, there's an opportunity now for you to provide closing remarks in relation to your application. The floor, the room is yours. To be honest, I have no more follow-up to say because I think from our conversation, I transfer all our thinking already and I appreciate this meeting. I think you've answered all the questions. Your presentation has been fine. You don't need to add anything else unless there's anything that you desperately want to say in response to anything that anybody may have said earlier in the meeting. I don't have much to add. That's fine. And please don't feel compelled. You don't, if you feel, if you believe and feel you've said enough, I'm a strong believer is a full stop is stronger sometimes than a semicolon. So more than happy for us to say thank you for the presentation and then I will go back to the script that I have. So thank you. That now concludes this part of the meeting. The decision reasons and any legal advice given during the subcommittee's decision discussion that has informed the decision will be confirmed in writing together with information about any rights of appeal within five working days. Members of the licensing subcommittee, the democratic services officer and legal advisor, we will now join a separate meeting, confidential meeting to make the decision. OK, so at this point, I'd really like to say thank you, applicants. I wish your business every success. If I'm ever in the area, I will pop in. It's wonderful to see people coming to Unsworth, you know, putting enterprise front and centre and serving the people. So I really would like to say thank you for your time this evening and a member of the council will be in touch with an outcome in due course. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We really appreciate it. Cheers. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.