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Human Resources Committee - Thursday, 12th December, 2024 6.30 p.m.
December 12, 2024 View on council website Watch video of meetingTranscript
Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Human Resources Committee meeting. I'd like to welcome everyone, and hopefully we'll have a collegiate meeting. It's been a while since I've chaired a meeting, so I'm acting as vice chair, stepping up as the chair of the committee has given his apologies. I'll hand over to Justina, just to put in the apologies. Thank you, chair. We have two apologies this evening, one for Councillor Shafiur Ahmed, and one for Councillor Abdul Malik, they've both sent their apologies. We have substitutes, Councillor Mustaq Ahmed and Councillor Kamul Hussein, who are respective substitutes. Thank you, Justina. So, this meeting is held in person. We don't have any members online, so everybody can vote on items that need voting. I'd like to remind members at the meeting to only speak at my direction and to speak clearly into their microphones to ensure that their comments can be properly recorded. Can everybody also make sure that they switch off mobile phones or put it on silent mode? Okay, so if we can start with introductions around the table, and if members, if you can state if you've got a DPI on any agenda item. If you don't, then just say no DPIs. So, I'll start with myself, Councillor Kabir Ahmed, Vice Chair of the Committee, and stepping in to chair the meeting. I have no DPIs. Councillor Abel Chowndry, no DPI's, to declare. Good evening, Pauline Shakespeare, Endroom, Head of Corporate Human Resources, no DPIs. Katrina Hunt, Head of Democratic Services Officer, no DPIs. So, we have some guests online. If you can introduce yourself, starting with John Harrison, please. Hi, John Harrison. I'm the Director of Corporate Efficiency. My apologies, I'm a bit in a mess at the moment. Have a good meeting. No DPIs. Thank you, John. Joel? Good evening, Chair. Joel West, Democratic Services Team Leader. Carol? Carol Bowes. I'm the Legal Advisor to the Committee. Thank you. So, now, the next agenda item is the minutes. Does everyone agree with the minutes? Or is there any amendments required? No? Everyone's agreed? Fabulous. Okay, so, the third item on the agenda is the work plan. It's been circulated, as well as responses to the actions from 26th of September via email sent yesterday. Do members have any comments on the action log? Councilor Asma Islaam. So, the actions that were due in today's meeting, can you just notify us? I think, Councilor. Is that okay, Asma? Or do you want to pick anything else up? It's just that I haven't seen all the papers, but let me go through it and see if I've missed it in my collection. Okay, so, if you identify anything, if you can come back at AOB, highlight it, and then we can pick that up. Anybody else? Sorry, Abdi? So, one of the action logs from the last meeting was for HR to come back with an update around the employee casework and policy review. So, that was an email I was subsequently sent that partly answered the question, so it's just worth flagging. I'm not sure we got the relevant assurance in the response that we got, so it's just worth picking that one up. Can I ask Julie Lorraine, Corporate Director, for resources to respond to that, please? So, I'm hoping, Councilor, that the team have got additional information that they will talk to during the report. That's fine. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Julie, sorry, for that. That wasn't quite what that was about. It was about the assurances that the people who are dealing with vulnerable customers or vulnerable people that we engage with, that there's plans in place. So, the response we've received is confirmation that there's one person that's clarified, and it goes on further to say we're not going to provide the details for that person. I don't think anybody asks for those details. It won't be appropriate for us to know those details, but we just want the assurances and the safeguards that plans are in place. So, again, I'll ask the same question when it comes to when we get to the report, but I'm not quite sure it answers the question from the 26th of January. If I can ask HR colleagues to make sure that they look into the matter thoroughly and then respond back. Thank you. Any more for the work plan? No? Okay. So, we'll move on to the next agenda item. Agenda item 4.1. Now, I just want to flag up, and I'll bring a proposal in with that, is as there are no appointment subcommittees between now and the next HR committee, my proposal is that this report is for noting, particularly as full council deferred the proportionality agenda item, and this item is due to come back to full council in the January full council, which is prior to the February HR committee meeting. And I think it will be premature for us to be making decisions around proportionality around subcommittees prior to it going to full council. So, I would like to propose that forward, and if I can have – is there any seconders for that proposal? I'd second that proposal. Thank you, Councillor Talla. Anybody else want to comment on what I've proposed? Is that okay? Thank you. Okay. So, would – do you want to talk over this now, although I've asked for it to be a noting item, or should we move on to the next agenda item? Because this will come back again in February. You're happy to move on. Thank you. Okay. So, swiftly moving on to agenda item 4.2, corporate directors update. So, if I can ask – oh, sorry, if I can welcome first, Mr. Simon Baxter, to talk about his department and give us any updates. Now, you have five minutes, Mr. Baxter, and then you have to face the inquisition of questions of members in this committee. So, your time starts now. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, members. I've been in court all day on jury service, so it would be a bit more like the normal. So, thank you. I think I should firstly update members on the senior recruitment roles that should be going out imminently in the next couple of days, if not today. They're out. They're out already, so forget the imminently. And one of them are mine, the director of public realm, which I'll go on to in a minute, director of regeneration, housing and supply and assets, director of housing, neighbourhoods and customer services, and director of areas, which was communities and housing and regen. And this is an outcome of a number of meetings over the summer, where the chief exec said forward the issues, the challenges, I guess, in housing services. Moreover, in public realm, I've had an interim acting up into that role. It'll be a matter for members to decide in the coming months. But those adverts are out. David and I wrote the foreword for it, and I think, you know, it'd be good if you can spare some time to have a look at it. But administration has been, it's always, we want the best in this borough, because the borough deserves the best. So that is important to be mindful of. Talking of which, community in strategy, in structure, in governance. So I'm undertaking a review of a number of areas, slimming down public realm, because public realm is far too big. This is a big challenge for the council. If you look to the annual resident survey, a lot of things have gone the right way, but safe communities wasn't one of those. So, again, that's another driver for change. I'm also, there's a SIT review that's been going on for some time now, and that's about it in a nutshell. I think it's a challenging place. The new year will be the most fresh challenges. You've got a minute left, Simon. A minute. Wow, that's gone so quick. Then we'll begin to shape those services going forward. Thank you. Thank you, Simon. So, do members have questions? Come on, members. You must have questions about the new directorate. It has the leisure service. It has the parks. Waste. Thank you, Abdi. Chair, it's worth noting, I did raise this last time, it's hard to know what it's got in there, if there's no actual presentation. I think a verbal presentation can have a more informed debate or conversation and challenge. Fair point, Councillor. Can I request, going forward, we have a scope of the particular directorate with departments that lie under it. I know we've got the corporate structure, and maybe just have a picture of the corporate structure and the various different departments that operate under the directorate. So, Councillor Asmae Salam. Quick question on how much of the directorate... Sorry, can you repeat the last bit about it? So, climate emergency. Climate, ah, okay. Talking climate emergency. So, there's a policy aspect which is overarching, but who... I know you're the director, corporate director, that this falls with, but then where does it go? Who else is part of the team? It actually sits within housing. It's with David Joyce. Yes. Yeah, so, there is two elements to it. One is the strategy and the actual infrastructure that we look at. So, in terms of infrastructure, that sits around the planning area, the infrastructure planning. Then you've got a strategy area, which also sits under David Joyce, and Karen Swift is the director who oversees that in terms of strategy and policy. And there is another element, which is the deliverables, which sits under communities in elements of, such as flat pack recycling and waste recycling and so on and so forth. So, overarching, the council has oversight, but the majority, the strategy element of it, the planning and infrastructure element of it would be under David Joyce. But I don't understand why one of the biggest contributors, the transport, highways, parks, all of that, that covers attacking the climate emergency, why is that under his corporate directorship? Housing, I can understand, but why is it not also part of it? I'll let the deputy chief executive answer that. So, councillor, what happened was, we made some checks, but we do need to, you're right. Mr. Baxter. Thank you, Chair. Just on the first point, you have to, excuse me, councillor, themes within that new structure as well. I hope that helps. Sorry, can I bring in Councillor Ulla? I think you want, did you want to speak, Councillor Ulla? That's easy to digest. But if you're going to tell me you've reinvented the wheel and then broken it, that's a little bit different. Because it's so important, I understand, we'll give it time, like, for you to come back and say where it sits, but it actually needs to make sense. It's such an important piece of work, strategic, long-term piece of work. And I didn't, by the way, I didn't ask this question because anything to do with the case is just generally because parks and everything else falls under public realm. It's a big chunk. I can see you sharing it with someone else or a few of our corporate directors. It doesn't make sense why it now does not have any connection to public realm. So that's a worry for me. I'm happy for officers to come back and then maybe we'll find some solutions and it might look a lot cleaner and neater by the time you come back. Sorry, Jonia, is join those things together. They were already separate. Okay, because I was thinking about enforcement. You talk about enforcement, but you don't cover the bits. Asma, through me, please. Thank you. All right. Councillor Ola. I think if we get a paper next meeting around summer, more media presentation, it would be really helpful. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Ola. Councillor Chaudhry. Thanks, Chair. As a lead member, obviously, I'm quite aware of what's going on. So I think it will be useful if suggestions came from colleagues as to what you want within this section. So we've heard reference to a possible presentation or some further information. In regards to specifics, what is it that you'd like to know in terms of projects? Is it, I don't know, where we are now when you want timelines? I don't know what it is exactly that you want. And then maybe the corporate directors in future can look into it. But as it stands, when it comes to senior-level recruitment, I think that is a paper that we're going to look at today. But just to sort of guide, I think, corporate directors as to what you're expecting will be helpful. Abdi. I had one point for a kind of discussion for Simon. But I think that was sponsored to the Councillor and offered. And I think, actually, if that had been offered previously, then we would have taken you up from that. And I think I welcome you offering that because then we can work constructively to figure out what needs to be on it. But unless it's our thing, just move forward. So is it cost-cutting or is it there's a better way of doing it? And either is an acceptable answer. I'm not making a point here. I'm just trying to figure out where this has come from. So, Mr Baxter, if you can briefly respond. And I'm going to ask, after that, Deputy Chief Executive to come in. Because I think in terms of processes and procedures, and correct me if I'm wrong, these are ideas that you're speaking about. But they still have to go through the Council's governance process, which includes both the unions, the staff, and everybody else. And it's once you've got agreement for various mechanisms, it comes – the finer detail structure, I believe, then comes to the HR committee. If I'm correct in that, or if you can just clarify, I'll ask either HR or Deputy Chief Executive to comment on that point. But, Simon, if you can come back on Abdi's point, please. Thank you. And I think it's a fair point. It's actually on both. So, there's a lot of work going into tackling the issues around the annual resident survey, but also my own concerns. And I can speak from a professional point of view, and it was not fit for purpose. But it will be. Thank you. Deputy Chief Executive, if you can just talk us through the process, just an overview. Or if HR colleagues can talk us through the overview that you would go through before a restructured design is presented. Because this is a public meeting, and I think there are rigorous processes you would go through before it's presented here in an open meeting. So, first of all, good question about enhancing or prioritising the areas the service looks at. If it involves any changes I've got in the way today, is that... We believe you. Is that... So, rather than wait, we will ask Justina to upload the structures, then he will. Is that okay with everybody? Okay, is everybody happy with this agenda item? Any more questions? No? We can move on, yeah? Mr. Baxter, you want to... Yes, you can. Thank you. Sorry. Pauline? Can I just beg the committee's indulgence for a couple of minutes, and I'll return. So, I think the next agenda item is the update on senior recruitment. Should we... Do you need ten minutes? Or... I think Pauline's been very polite, but there's one thing about this that draws your attention. Pauline isn't conflicted in this because there's no decision about Pauline on senior recruitment. However, there is a decision for you to take about John's recruitment. It's entirely up to you if you would like John to dial out and then back in, or if you're happy for him to remain. It's not a contentious decision. Taking a decision around John. So... John's item first, if you'd like. Yes. So, I'm going to ask John to leave the meeting for a few minutes, and Justina will ping you to tell you when to come back in, John. If you can... Okay. Thank you. No problem, chef. Thank you. Just for members, it's the paper on its own, Agenda Item 4.3. There's a... It's a late paper. So, what I'm minded to do is give a five-minute recess. It's quite a short paper, unless you need more time. A ten-minute recess for you to just briefly skim over the paper, if you need to, so you can have a look at it. Would members prefer that, or would you prefer the report to be presented? There is a... In terms of the paper itself, it's an urgent paper, and the reasons are put within the paper. So, if you want five to ten minutes to read over the paper briefly. Chair, I'm fine. I don't need the five minutes, but I've got a question about that. Okay. So, we've got an agreement to continue with the meeting. A question was asked on the urgency of the paper. If I can ask, if I can ask, it is set out on the paper, but if I can ask corporate director for resources and Katrina, head of HR, to give the reason for the urgency of the paper, please. Thank you, Chair. Apologies what questions they have, because it might not be... They might not need... I know I've read the report. Everyone else seems like they've read the report. Should we just go to questions? I think it's important we have the report presented, because the public is... This is a public meeting, so we need to give the public an understanding of it as well. Sorry, Chair, the reasons for urgency need to be agreed before we can't agree... We can't have to be agreed. That's fine. So, is the committee happy for the reasons for urgency given? That's what my point was about. So, it's... I accept that we need to agree it, but I've got serious issues with... I'm going to take your point all idly, but... So, this is now aimed for the 7th of March, the 16th of May, and the 26th of September. For the whole year, these papers have come to this committee, and they haven't... They've come to making these decisions, and has been doing so all year. So, it was that point I wanted to put on record, and raise real concerns about that. I've gladly come to fruition. So, that should be really concerning for all of us. Okay, thank you, Councillor. Can I, once again, reiterate for officers to make sure that these reports are written, submitted in a timely fashion, so members get the proper time required in order to make informed decisions in this committee. And, again, I will remind both officers and members, this is a public-facing meeting. We, as members, have a responsibility to enact our duties properly. And, for us to enact our duties properly, officers need to submit reports in a timely fashion. Thank you. If I could now ask Deputy Chief Executive and Corporate Director for resources, you've got 10 minutes to present this report. I don't think it will take 10 minutes, eminently, to something that may then change. So, we have acting up arrangements, and we also have an interim arrangement, which is polling. So, circumstances, and importantly, and I think particularly today, that will draw your attention to the number that are part of the permanent recruitment camp, and we will do our absolute best to answer them. Thank you, Julie. Now, I just want to start off by saying these are six-month clock-ins with the committee, so you've got six months to prepare the next report, so please don't be late with that. So, with that, have members got questions? Okay. Council Aizlam. Quick one. You know those that are on interim, as if they were employees? Council Aizlam. So, with that, now that, with that piece, are we making the best use of public money here? In the acting up, it's extremely the best use of public money, because in no cases are those acting up. He was replaced by Abdul in January last year. Julie, he came in as Director of Finance. Finance. I'm sorry, he came in as Director of Finance, Deputy Section 151, I meant. He was replaced by Abdul in January, and that's the reason I'm asking to retain John to the end of the financial year. Sorry, I just want to add a couple of other things in relation to that. Julie, if you can expand on, so you've spoken about savings. How much of it is corporate and how much of it is departmental? Just kind of overviews around that, because when we hear savings, everybody gets worried. The other element of it is I think it's important to also acknowledge that I've worked with John for various different projects, and one of those is his expertise around power and energy. So he's previously set up and sat on boards of energy companies, like council-run energy companies or community-run energy companies. I don't know the exact terminology for it. So Tower Hamlets, we are looking at a transformative agenda and also creating our own energy. You may be aware of the power station, Barkington power station we've got. So John is, I think, playing an integral part in that process as well. Sorry, I had to throw that in, just to show the range of stuff that that particular individual is working on. And it's real specialism coming in, and wherever you reach out for that specialism, because it's unique skills, will cost money. Go on, last question. Last question, which is, thank you for that. You went comprehensively more than what I've heard. Interims are a necessary evil at times. A bit like a state agent's councillor. They're lovely, but actually they form a real purpose when you are determining what that permanent role is going to look like. When I look down here, and I've just looked, it is clear that a lot isn't. I think the best value inspection actually will drive some changes, and perhaps that's right. The Envoy permanent changes to that until that process is agreed. Right. Anybody else? Questions? Abdi. Thank you. I think that's really helpful, really comprehensive. It's the average length of an interim in Talhamis. Yeah, it'd just be helpful. And I think your point about a lot of this is coming to an end, and I have no doubt. You're looking for the past 12 months, what the average tenure is, or perhaps to take those post-listed and give you the positions. But I want to give you a fact rather than a guesswork. So is that okay? That's fine. I think let's make it in the last two years, purely because we've got something to base it on, and then whether it's a trajectory in that sense. That would be helpful, looking for interim cover. People that kind of, I suppose, understand. So it says it's based on Mary, which is absolutely the right thing that it should be, but have kind of a cultural competency, quite chaotic periods that they've kind of got the most suited person. So more of a like-for-like council, similar to Talhamis Lake. I know from Newham, which has similar demographics and similar... So what I would say is, in each case, a station is drawn up for an interim. We don't bring someone up we know. We go out to the market with a specification based on this is what is the vacation, and that process has been... Just to wrap it up, what I can say is, if you look at the list of names on here, and I know the ethnicity breakdown isn't there, but as members, you're more than welcome to meet the individual names that are on there. Just if you send them an email and have a meeting with them, you will see it's probably the most diverse range of interims anywhere in the country. That wasn't the point. Just to be absolutely clear, I think... I'm not answering your point. I'm making a statement as chair. I think my point was about, so for example, homelessness, for example. There's a difference between somebody being appointed in London than it is in, like, the Shires, for example. That was the point I was making about... It wasn't about... Julie's answered your question, but I'm making a point as chair of the committee in relation to my own statements. So I would like to sort of point to that list, advise members to write to these directors, have meetings with them. It is a very diverse range of interims we do have here. Okay. So, if members' questions are over, as a committee, are we happy to note the report and note the extension of these posts? Thank you. We're all agreed unanimously. Justina, if you record that. We will move to the next agenda item, which is 4.4... Tell me, can you dial John back in? I will do. I will do, please. Justina, if you add John back in... The message is stated. We're on 4.4. This is employee relations, casework and policy quarterly review. That's 4.5. I've got two 4.4s here. Apologies. Can I just say this is... John is back. Welcome back, John. Thank you, Chair. So, John, can I ask you to present your report on ERVR, please, John? Yes. Thank you. No problem. It'll only take a couple of minutes. It's summarised heavily in the report. I would say it's been very, very successful. We've got savings of about 2.8 million in 24-25. We've had to make one-off costs of 3.2 million. In effect, we've paid them back in 1.15 years. And by the time we get to year three, savings of about 8.4 million. Out of applicants that applied, just over 20% were approved. And we're just about to launch the next scheme. And so, what I would suggest is, over the next few months, we'll start reporting on ERVR2. Back in to the committee, Chairman. Happy to take any questions. Thank you, John, for your report. Members, do you have any questions? No questions? Abdi? Thanks, John. How much are we expecting to save over the course of the programme, not just this year? We're looking, by the time we get to year three, at go over £8 million. I apologize. You'll save. Julie, if you can. So, what I wanted to do was say, this was a set ERVR, part of the budget set last year, with a very clear target. And this is John giving you progress on whether it has met its target when you take decisions. Pardon me there. So, I'm going to shoot off a brief question for Julie. Just clarification around, within ERVR, can you clarify if they are usually payouts or a lot of the money is rolled into pensions and so on and so forth because of time in service in local government? And the other question I asked you on the previous agenda item might be prudent here as well. How much of the savings are corporate and how much of it is departmental? If you can pick up those two areas. Okay. So, that the attraction of ERVR is to that particular group. It's not exclusively that, but it is to that particular group. The focus of ERVR is always the post and not the protected post. So, we don't see ERVR granted there. So, by definition, councillor, you end up that the areas that are most likely to be protected or exempt post. Does that help? And, sorry, I meant also in terms of overall budgetary efficiencies and savings that we were talking about. How much of it is corporate and realignment and so on and so forth and how much of it is departmental? So, in the current budget, I'm pleasantly surprised and relieved that the council's target to ensure that frontline services will monitor all those savings. So, I'm happy to send a full picture so that members can see it. Thank you, Julie. Councillor Ola, did you have a question? It's not a question, councillor. Chair, it's more of an observation. Given the, you said it's not the post, it's not the person who's a post. Some of us who have been around the town hall for a long time know there's quality, you know, spin. How do we plan that with the service heads? Because that's what I'm just mindful of. Open a gate for Christmas, a few people might think, you know what, it's dark day. Leadership team, and they then add their support or not. The final decision based on their recommendations is considered by CMT as a whole. So, sometimes ERVR is agreed, and it's agreed at a date allowing the development of perhaps a deputy, and the ERVR will kick in sometimes three months later. So, it's planned at an operational level, not central. Okay, Councillor Liz Lam, you had a question? Yeah. What's payback? I don't know what it is. The life of the MTFS. So, somebody can't go on a £500,000 package when it would only save us £50,000 a year because the payback, that ongoing saving to cover the cost of the investment. It's a standard industry measure of the... Because, so, 0.76 is because of where it appeared in the cycle of the budget. The cost of them going would be less than... Might cost £25,000 for them to go. So, you save £50,000, that's a payback period of 0.6 months. Sorry, that's fine, if you don't put the mic on. The second question around resources, but then we've got interim in this area as well and lots more new stuff. So, there's two reasons for that. Resources, I've already said to you, I took the decision to use acting up and not to replace the substantive posts. So, effectively allows us a lot of flexibility to create a new structure. So, third reason that you will see this in resources, you'll see it continue. It used to take teams of people an awful long time to do that. VAT and tax is now HMRC online. It used to take that. And that's why you're seeing those changes in the middle the most. Right. I hope all questions are answered. If we can note this item and move on to the next item, which is 4.5, Employee Relations Casework and Policy Quarterly Review. Can I ask the Council's Interim Director for OD and Workforce, Pauline Shakespeare, to present your report, please? Thank you. So, this report covers quarter two, which is July to September 2024. I'd like to bring to the committee's attention on page 38, which is the dashboard for Employee Relations. As you will see, we've got a total number of cases at the time this was produced of 106. Those were split down in terms of directorates as follows. Chief Exec's Office was five, Children's Services, 17, Communities, 42, Health, Adults, and Social Care was five, Housing and Regeneration, 25, Resources, 12. There is, in terms of where we are seeing a particular increase, so, for instance, in communities, I'd just like to point out, disciplinary of the 42, disciplinary is 17. As you will see across the piece, in terms of grievance, we are low, which is a good thing in terms of the Chief Exec's Office, Act 2, in Children's Services, we're at six, but you will note in communities that we're at 17, which is in terms of proportion, in terms of the number of cases that we have within that directorate, that is quite high. We're also seeing an increase in cases generally. What we have done, as the committee has asked previously for us to break down in terms of how many members of staff we have in directorates and what that looks like, we have added that detail at the bottom of page 38. So, again, we're looking at 3% in terms of the Chief Exec's Office, which has 194 staff, but in Children's Services, we're at 29% when there is 1,705 members of staff in that directorate. Equally, in communities, again, you'll notice that there is a trend and a theme of 1,575 there and 27% in terms of cases are allocated to that particular directorate. I'd also note for the committee that we have provided on page 39. We've also given it in a pictorial graph as well for your ease. I'd also like to just give a little bit of context for the committee. So, in terms of, as I've said, the report is from July 1st to the 30th of September 2024. I need to note, bring to your attention, that the number of formal cases are increasing. We are seeing an increase. This is not just related to Tower Hamlets. This is general in terms of this particular area across the London boroughs. But what we have done actively in terms of trying to mitigate is that we have been working, we are working with our union colleagues as well as senior management. We are providing additional training in terms of investigators in order to move cases through much swifter than perhaps we have done previously. We have started a program of training for all heads of service which started to take place in last month, in October, actually. Apologies. I forgot we're in December now. So that will help us in terms of having quality internal investigators to help us with those cases that actually do fall in the formal realm. I should also highlight that 65%, nearly 66% of cases that were closed with our current target benchmark of 120 days. Now, I know that you're likely to say 120 days is quite a long time. I would absolutely agree with you in that case. So I'll just highlight it myself. We are looking in terms of in some of the processes that we are now adopting that we can bring that number down in the future because that is still quite high although we are absolutely achieving the benchmark that we have ourselves set. If you're okay, do you want me to go on to policy or would you like me to pause for questions? Do members have questions around this part of the paper? So, before you come in, Abdi, I've just got a couple one around benchmarking with other councils. So you've stated that this is generally going up in London. Where are we in terms of total number of grievances or complaints or, you know, employee relation issues in line with... and you don't have to give the exact number but in terms of sort of are we in the upper quartile of these complaints coming in or lower quartile or mid-quartile and also in terms of closing cases, you've said 120 days is not good enough. What is your target of resolving or what is a good target benchmarking against other councils? So, in order to respond, so I sit on the heads of HR for London councils in which other HR directors are also sitting. So since I've joined seven weeks ago, that has been an immediate factor. So I'm able to look in terms of best practice across the other London boroughs and as part of general discussion, one of my first things was in terms of asking around this in terms of VR cases. In terms of quartiles where we are, that is, to be honest, a fluctuating question. So depending on size, you would need to look at size of employees that are in each of those boroughs to be able to get absolute proportionality in terms of what that looks like. We are, I would say, that we are middle. There are some that are higher, there are those that are lower. And again, in terms of what that would actually look like, I'd like to come back, I would say, in about six months' time in order to be able to give you a clear, in terms of benchmarking, with regards to that. And the second part of it, 120 days, is too long. Yes, so 120 days. So I'm basing that on work that I have done before. and so standard in terms of best practice, we talk at what we say is a long-term case is if we still got that case with us for the 90 days. So I would be looking for us to close cases within 90 days instead of our current 120. Thank you. Councillor Abdi Mohamed. Thank you, Chair. I've got a pretty dismissal, especially, for example, of gross misconduct. It's pretty high and it takes a, you know, rightfully so. There's a very long drawn-out process where that person is, as I said, in the 3.6, some suspensions around fraud or other areas. So how are we as a council learning from these, you know, these number of cases that, to stop this and to ensure fraud is a perfect example. I'm not talking about any one case, but how do we make sure that there's not a space for that fraud? We've got the learning from that session, but I would like to see us coming back, not just with a tip, but learning to be done there. So I think it's helpful with the corporate director of resources to answer that about the finance and it's very specific and I think that's great, but I think that is by the book, Judy, is a sound one. I think it's something we should really consider to. So, sorry, I'm just going to come in there. Maybe we can have a closed session or a training session around that, either for this committee or for councillors as a whole in terms of learning that we've got. It's a good idea. Yeah. Okay. Councillor Islam. Thank you. Firstly, thank you for adjusting how we want data represented to us in the future as well. I have a question around the table at the bottom of page 38 and communities, I can say confidently, is an area, if you look at the departments that are in it, is something that does have this level of cases in other boroughs because this is, looks like the chief exec's office is separated from the resources numbers, has 3% of the council staff, but also has 3% towards the same thing. Julie, if you may. Resource and chief exec's office isn't the same thing to cases. In the chief execs, there are 5 out of 194 and in proportion. So your question will be item that I will pick up on later on where we can give you an example of how we'll get that stability. But I don't think Pauline said the number I think where you have smaller sort of departments, those individual cases weigh greater percentage points. So sometimes the percentage goes up. And I think within workforces, sometimes you get a joint complaint internally within the department. So it might run through the unions. And so there may be 10, 12 people who are signatories to a particular type of complaint. And that could exponentially raise it as well. I'm going to move one last question. Make it very brief, please, because we're overrunning. Thank you, Chair, for indulging me. Just a really quick one. With children and with adults, we can rest assured that I think it's helpful. A simple yes would suffice. Yes, noted. Okay, so moving on. We're on to the AOB section. I know, Julie, you have a brief for AOB. Please be brief with the brief. And then we can move on. Okay, so it was just I wanted, as you are the HR committees, with those trade unions. So, yes, if it was a fruitful meeting, do we, can we get a note because unless the union tell us individually. So, can I suggest one of two actions? One, we invite the unions and in for the meeting of the 5th. and in the meantime, can I suggest that sorry? Yeah, so can I suggest Corporate Director of Resources arrange a meeting in relation to if members want to attend in relation to the unions and this issue? So, if I can say so, today what was reached was have we made against this agreement at your next meeting? Thank you. And with that we will, unless anybody's got any other I can see it from here. John, do you want to show off your T-shirt? Wee! All right. With that I hope everybody wait, Council Ola, not finished yet. Be seated. Okay, so with that I hope I want to thank officers and members for constructive discussion but there's a couple of announcements I do want to make and the first is that the council is collecting feedback from members about their experiences speaking at the meeting. If you wish please complete a paper copy of the survey after the meeting or if you want you can complete a survey online. There's a QR code to access the link which is over there somewhere and with that I will now close the meeting and wish everybody a happy festive period. Thank you. Good night all. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. Good night.
Transcript
Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Human Resources Committee meeting. I'd like to welcome everyone, and hopefully we'll have a collegiate meeting. It's been a while since I've chaired a meeting, so I'm acting as vice chair, stepping up as the chair of the committee has given his apologies. I'll hand over to Justina, just to put in the apologies. Thank you, chair. We have two apologies this evening, one for Councillor Shafiur Ahmed, and one for Councillor Abdul Malik, they've both sent their apologies. We have substitutes, Councillor Mustaq Ahmed and Councillor Kamul Hussein, who are respective substitutes. Thank you, Justina. So, this meeting is held in person. We don't have any members online, so everybody can vote on items that need voting. I'd like to remind members at the meeting to only speak at my direction and to speak clearly into their microphones to ensure that their comments can be properly recorded. Can everybody also make sure that they switch off mobile phones or put it on silent mode? Okay, so if we can start with introductions around the table, and if members, if you can state if you've got a DPI on any agenda item. If you don't, then just say no DPIs. So, I'll start with myself, Councillor Kabir Ahmed, Vice Chair of the Committee, and stepping in to chair the meeting. I have no DPIs. Councillor Abel Chowndry, no DPI's, to declare. Good evening, Pauline Shakespeare, Endroom, Head of Corporate Human Resources, no DPIs. Katrina Hunt, Head of Democratic Services Officer, no DPIs. So, we have some guests online. If you can introduce yourself, starting with John Harrison, please. Hi, John Harrison. I'm the Director of Corporate Efficiency. My apologies, I'm a bit in a mess at the moment. Have a good meeting. No DPIs. Thank you, John. Joel? Good evening, Chair. Joel West, Democratic Services Team Leader. Carol? Carol Bowes. I'm the Legal Advisor to the Committee. Thank you. So, now, the next agenda item is the minutes. Does everyone agree with the minutes? Or is there any amendments required? No? Everyone's agreed? Fabulous. Okay, so, the third item on the agenda is the work plan. It's been circulated, as well as responses to the actions from 26th of September via email sent yesterday. Do members have any comments on the action log? Councilor Asma Islaam. So, the actions that were due in today's meeting, can you just notify us? I think, Councilor. Is that okay, Asma? Or do you want to pick anything else up? It's just that I haven't seen all the papers, but let me go through it and see if I've missed it in my collection. Okay, so, if you identify anything, if you can come back at AOB, highlight it, and then we can pick that up. Anybody else? Sorry, Abdi? So, one of the action logs from the last meeting was for HR to come back with an update around the employee casework and policy review. So, that was an email I was subsequently sent that partly answered the question, so it's just worth flagging. I'm not sure we got the relevant assurance in the response that we got, so it's just worth picking that one up. Can I ask Julie Lorraine, Corporate Director, for resources to respond to that, please? So, I'm hoping, Councilor, that the team have got additional information that they will talk to during the report. That's fine. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Julie, sorry, for that. That wasn't quite what that was about. It was about the assurances that the people who are dealing with vulnerable customers or vulnerable people that we engage with, that there's plans in place. So, the response we've received is confirmation that there's one person that's clarified, and it goes on further to say we're not going to provide the details for that person. I don't think anybody asks for those details. It won't be appropriate for us to know those details, but we just want the assurances and the safeguards that plans are in place. So, again, I'll ask the same question when it comes to when we get to the report, but I'm not quite sure it answers the question from the 26th of January. If I can ask HR colleagues to make sure that they look into the matter thoroughly and then respond back. Thank you. Any more for the work plan? No? Okay. So, we'll move on to the next agenda item. Agenda item 4.1. Now, I just want to flag up, and I'll bring a proposal in with that, is as there are no appointment subcommittees between now and the next HR committee, my proposal is that this report is for noting, particularly as full council deferred the proportionality agenda item, and this item is due to come back to full council in the January full council, which is prior to the February HR committee meeting. And I think it will be premature for us to be making decisions around proportionality around subcommittees prior to it going to full council. So, I would like to propose that forward, and if I can have – is there any seconders for that proposal? I'd second that proposal. Thank you, Councillor Talla. Anybody else want to comment on what I've proposed? Is that okay? Thank you. Okay. So, would – do you want to talk over this now, although I've asked for it to be a noting item, or should we move on to the next agenda item? Because this will come back again in February. You're happy to move on. Thank you. Okay. So, swiftly moving on to agenda item 4.2, corporate directors update. So, if I can ask – oh, sorry, if I can welcome first, Mr. Simon Baxter, to talk about his department and give us any updates. Now, you have five minutes, Mr. Baxter, and then you have to face the inquisition of questions of members in this committee. So, your time starts now. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, members. I've been in court all day on jury service, so it would be a bit more like the normal. So, thank you. I think I should firstly update members on the senior recruitment roles that should be going out imminently in the next couple of days, if not today. They're out. They're out already, so forget the imminently. And one of them are mine, the director of public realm, which I'll go on to in a minute, director of regeneration, housing and supply and assets, director of housing, neighbourhoods and customer services, and director of areas, which was communities and housing and regen. And this is an outcome of a number of meetings over the summer, where the chief exec said forward the issues, the challenges, I guess, in housing services. Moreover, in public realm, I've had an interim acting up into that role. It'll be a matter for members to decide in the coming months. But those adverts are out. David and I wrote the foreword for it, and I think, you know, it'd be good if you can spare some time to have a look at it. But administration has been, it's always, we want the best in this borough, because the borough deserves the best. So that is important to be mindful of. Talking of which, community in strategy, in structure, in governance. So I'm undertaking a review of a number of areas, slimming down public realm, because public realm is far too big. This is a big challenge for the council. If you look to the annual resident survey, a lot of things have gone the right way, but safe communities wasn't one of those. So, again, that's another driver for change. I'm also, there's a SIT review that's been going on for some time now, and that's about it in a nutshell. I think it's a challenging place. The new year will be the most fresh challenges. You've got a minute left, Simon. A minute. Wow, that's gone so quick. Then we'll begin to shape those services going forward. Thank you. Thank you, Simon. So, do members have questions? Come on, members. You must have questions about the new directorate. It has the leisure service. It has the parks. Waste. Thank you, Abdi. Chair, it's worth noting, I did raise this last time, it's hard to know what it's got in there, if there's no actual presentation. I think a verbal presentation can have a more informed debate or conversation and challenge. Fair point, Councillor. Can I request, going forward, we have a scope of the particular directorate with departments that lie under it. I know we've got the corporate structure, and maybe just have a picture of the corporate structure and the various different departments that operate under the directorate. So, Councillor Asmae Salam. Quick question on how much of the directorate... Sorry, can you repeat the last bit about it? So, climate emergency. Climate, ah, okay. Talking climate emergency. So, there's a policy aspect which is overarching, but who... I know you're the director, corporate director, that this falls with, but then where does it go? Who else is part of the team? It actually sits within housing. It's with David Joyce. Yes. Yeah, so, there is two elements to it. One is the strategy and the actual infrastructure that we look at. So, in terms of infrastructure, that sits around the planning area, the infrastructure planning. Then you've got a strategy area, which also sits under David Joyce, and Karen Swift is the director who oversees that in terms of strategy and policy. And there is another element, which is the deliverables, which sits under communities in elements of, such as flat pack recycling and waste recycling and so on and so forth. So, overarching, the council has oversight, but the majority, the strategy element of it, the planning and infrastructure element of it would be under David Joyce. But I don't understand why one of the biggest contributors, the transport, highways, parks, all of that, that covers attacking the climate emergency, why is that under his corporate directorship? Housing, I can understand, but why is it not also part of it? I'll let the deputy chief executive answer that. So, councillor, what happened was, we made some checks, but we do need to, you're right. Mr. Baxter. Thank you, Chair. Just on the first point, you have to, excuse me, councillor, themes within that new structure as well. I hope that helps. Sorry, can I bring in Councillor Ulla? I think you want, did you want to speak, Councillor Ulla? That's easy to digest. But if you're going to tell me you've reinvented the wheel and then broken it, that's a little bit different. Because it's so important, I understand, we'll give it time, like, for you to come back and say where it sits, but it actually needs to make sense. It's such an important piece of work, strategic, long-term piece of work. And I didn't, by the way, I didn't ask this question because anything to do with the case is just generally because parks and everything else falls under public realm. It's a big chunk. I can see you sharing it with someone else or a few of our corporate directors. It doesn't make sense why it now does not have any connection to public realm. So that's a worry for me. I'm happy for officers to come back and then maybe we'll find some solutions and it might look a lot cleaner and neater by the time you come back. Sorry, Jonia, is join those things together. They were already separate. Okay, because I was thinking about enforcement. You talk about enforcement, but you don't cover the bits. Asma, through me, please. Thank you. All right. Councillor Ola. I think if we get a paper next meeting around summer, more media presentation, it would be really helpful. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Ola. Councillor Chaudhry. Thanks, Chair. As a lead member, obviously, I'm quite aware of what's going on. So I think it will be useful if suggestions came from colleagues as to what you want within this section. So we've heard reference to a possible presentation or some further information. In regards to specifics, what is it that you'd like to know in terms of projects? Is it, I don't know, where we are now when you want timelines? I don't know what it is exactly that you want. And then maybe the corporate directors in future can look into it. But as it stands, when it comes to senior-level recruitment, I think that is a paper that we're going to look at today. But just to sort of guide, I think, corporate directors as to what you're expecting will be helpful. Abdi. I had one point for a kind of discussion for Simon. But I think that was sponsored to the Councillor and offered. And I think, actually, if that had been offered previously, then we would have taken you up from that. And I think I welcome you offering that because then we can work constructively to figure out what needs to be on it. But unless it's our thing, just move forward. So is it cost-cutting or is it there's a better way of doing it? And either is an acceptable answer. I'm not making a point here. I'm just trying to figure out where this has come from. So, Mr Baxter, if you can briefly respond. And I'm going to ask, after that, Deputy Chief Executive to come in. Because I think in terms of processes and procedures, and correct me if I'm wrong, these are ideas that you're speaking about. But they still have to go through the Council's governance process, which includes both the unions, the staff, and everybody else. And it's once you've got agreement for various mechanisms, it comes – the finer detail structure, I believe, then comes to the HR committee. If I'm correct in that, or if you can just clarify, I'll ask either HR or Deputy Chief Executive to comment on that point. But, Simon, if you can come back on Abdi's point, please. Thank you. And I think it's a fair point. It's actually on both. So, there's a lot of work going into tackling the issues around the annual resident survey, but also my own concerns. And I can speak from a professional point of view, and it was not fit for purpose. But it will be. Thank you. Deputy Chief Executive, if you can just talk us through the process, just an overview. Or if HR colleagues can talk us through the overview that you would go through before a restructured design is presented. Because this is a public meeting, and I think there are rigorous processes you would go through before it's presented here in an open meeting. So, first of all, good question about enhancing or prioritising the areas the service looks at. If it involves any changes I've got in the way today, is that... We believe you. Is that... So, rather than wait, we will ask Justina to upload the structures, then he will. Is that okay with everybody? Okay, is everybody happy with this agenda item? Any more questions? No? We can move on, yeah? Mr. Baxter, you want to... Yes, you can. Thank you. Sorry. Pauline? Can I just beg the committee's indulgence for a couple of minutes, and I'll return. So, I think the next agenda item is the update on senior recruitment. Should we... Do you need ten minutes? Or... I think Pauline's been very polite, but there's one thing about this that draws your attention. Pauline isn't conflicted in this because there's no decision about Pauline on senior recruitment. However, there is a decision for you to take about John's recruitment. It's entirely up to you if you would like John to dial out and then back in, or if you're happy for him to remain. It's not a contentious decision. Taking a decision around John. So... John's item first, if you'd like. Yes. So, I'm going to ask John to leave the meeting for a few minutes, and Justina will ping you to tell you when to come back in, John. If you can... Okay. Thank you. No problem, chef. Thank you. Just for members, it's the paper on its own, Agenda Item 4.3. There's a... It's a late paper. So, what I'm minded to do is give a five-minute recess. It's quite a short paper, unless you need more time. A ten-minute recess for you to just briefly skim over the paper, if you need to, so you can have a look at it. Would members prefer that, or would you prefer the report to be presented? There is a... In terms of the paper itself, it's an urgent paper, and the reasons are put within the paper. So, if you want five to ten minutes to read over the paper briefly. Chair, I'm fine. I don't need the five minutes, but I've got a question about that. Okay. So, we've got an agreement to continue with the meeting. A question was asked on the urgency of the paper. If I can ask, if I can ask, it is set out on the paper, but if I can ask corporate director for resources and Katrina, head of HR, to give the reason for the urgency of the paper, please. Thank you, Chair. Apologies what questions they have, because it might not be... They might not need... I know I've read the report. Everyone else seems like they've read the report. Should we just go to questions? I think it's important we have the report presented, because the public is... This is a public meeting, so we need to give the public an understanding of it as well. Sorry, Chair, the reasons for urgency need to be agreed before we can't agree... We can't have to be agreed. That's fine. So, is the committee happy for the reasons for urgency given? That's what my point was about. So, it's... I accept that we need to agree it, but I've got serious issues with... I'm going to take your point all idly, but... So, this is now aimed for the 7th of March, the 16th of May, and the 26th of September. For the whole year, these papers have come to this committee, and they haven't... They've come to making these decisions, and has been doing so all year. So, it was that point I wanted to put on record, and raise real concerns about that. I've gladly come to fruition. So, that should be really concerning for all of us. Okay, thank you, Councillor. Can I, once again, reiterate for officers to make sure that these reports are written, submitted in a timely fashion, so members get the proper time required in order to make informed decisions in this committee. And, again, I will remind both officers and members, this is a public-facing meeting. We, as members, have a responsibility to enact our duties properly. And, for us to enact our duties properly, officers need to submit reports in a timely fashion. Thank you. If I could now ask Deputy Chief Executive and Corporate Director for resources, you've got 10 minutes to present this report. I don't think it will take 10 minutes, eminently, to something that may then change. So, we have acting up arrangements, and we also have an interim arrangement, which is polling. So, circumstances, and importantly, and I think particularly today, that will draw your attention to the number that are part of the permanent recruitment camp, and we will do our absolute best to answer them. Thank you, Julie. Now, I just want to start off by saying these are six-month clock-ins with the committee, so you've got six months to prepare the next report, so please don't be late with that. So, with that, have members got questions? Okay. Council Aizlam. Quick one. You know those that are on interim, as if they were employees? Council Aizlam. So, with that, now that, with that piece, are we making the best use of public money here? In the acting up, it's extremely the best use of public money, because in no cases are those acting up. He was replaced by Abdul in January last year. Julie, he came in as Director of Finance. Finance. I'm sorry, he came in as Director of Finance, Deputy Section 151, I meant. He was replaced by Abdul in January, and that's the reason I'm asking to retain John to the end of the financial year. Sorry, I just want to add a couple of other things in relation to that. Julie, if you can expand on, so you've spoken about savings. How much of it is corporate and how much of it is departmental? Just kind of overviews around that, because when we hear savings, everybody gets worried. The other element of it is I think it's important to also acknowledge that I've worked with John for various different projects, and one of those is his expertise around power and energy. So he's previously set up and sat on boards of energy companies, like council-run energy companies or community-run energy companies. I don't know the exact terminology for it. So Tower Hamlets, we are looking at a transformative agenda and also creating our own energy. You may be aware of the power station, Barkington power station we've got. So John is, I think, playing an integral part in that process as well. Sorry, I had to throw that in, just to show the range of stuff that that particular individual is working on. And it's real specialism coming in, and wherever you reach out for that specialism, because it's unique skills, will cost money. Go on, last question. Last question, which is, thank you for that. You went comprehensively more than what I've heard. Interims are a necessary evil at times. A bit like a state agent's councillor. They're lovely, but actually they form a real purpose when you are determining what that permanent role is going to look like. When I look down here, and I've just looked, it is clear that a lot isn't. I think the best value inspection actually will drive some changes, and perhaps that's right. The Envoy permanent changes to that until that process is agreed. Right. Anybody else? Questions? Abdi. Thank you. I think that's really helpful, really comprehensive. It's the average length of an interim in Talhamis. Yeah, it'd just be helpful. And I think your point about a lot of this is coming to an end, and I have no doubt. You're looking for the past 12 months, what the average tenure is, or perhaps to take those post-listed and give you the positions. But I want to give you a fact rather than a guesswork. So is that okay? That's fine. I think let's make it in the last two years, purely because we've got something to base it on, and then whether it's a trajectory in that sense. That would be helpful, looking for interim cover. People that kind of, I suppose, understand. So it says it's based on Mary, which is absolutely the right thing that it should be, but have kind of a cultural competency, quite chaotic periods that they've kind of got the most suited person. So more of a like-for-like council, similar to Talhamis Lake. I know from Newham, which has similar demographics and similar... So what I would say is, in each case, a station is drawn up for an interim. We don't bring someone up we know. We go out to the market with a specification based on this is what is the vacation, and that process has been... Just to wrap it up, what I can say is, if you look at the list of names on here, and I know the ethnicity breakdown isn't there, but as members, you're more than welcome to meet the individual names that are on there. Just if you send them an email and have a meeting with them, you will see it's probably the most diverse range of interims anywhere in the country. That wasn't the point. Just to be absolutely clear, I think... I'm not answering your point. I'm making a statement as chair. I think my point was about, so for example, homelessness, for example. There's a difference between somebody being appointed in London than it is in, like, the Shires, for example. That was the point I was making about... It wasn't about... Julie's answered your question, but I'm making a point as chair of the committee in relation to my own statements. So I would like to sort of point to that list, advise members to write to these directors, have meetings with them. It is a very diverse range of interims we do have here. Okay. So, if members' questions are over, as a committee, are we happy to note the report and note the extension of these posts? Thank you. We're all agreed unanimously. Justina, if you record that. We will move to the next agenda item, which is 4.4... Tell me, can you dial John back in? I will do. I will do, please. Justina, if you add John back in... The message is stated. We're on 4.4. This is employee relations, casework and policy quarterly review. That's 4.5. I've got two 4.4s here. Apologies. Can I just say this is... John is back. Welcome back, John. Thank you, Chair. So, John, can I ask you to present your report on ERVR, please, John? Yes. Thank you. No problem. It'll only take a couple of minutes. It's summarised heavily in the report. I would say it's been very, very successful. We've got savings of about 2.8 million in 24-25. We've had to make one-off costs of 3.2 million. In effect, we've paid them back in 1.15 years. And by the time we get to year three, savings of about 8.4 million. Out of applicants that applied, just over 20% were approved. And we're just about to launch the next scheme. And so, what I would suggest is, over the next few months, we'll start reporting on ERVR2. Back in to the committee, Chairman. Happy to take any questions. Thank you, John, for your report. Members, do you have any questions? No questions? Abdi? Thanks, John. How much are we expecting to save over the course of the programme, not just this year? We're looking, by the time we get to year three, at go over £8 million. I apologize. You'll save. Julie, if you can. So, what I wanted to do was say, this was a set ERVR, part of the budget set last year, with a very clear target. And this is John giving you progress on whether it has met its target when you take decisions. Pardon me there. So, I'm going to shoot off a brief question for Julie. Just clarification around, within ERVR, can you clarify if they are usually payouts or a lot of the money is rolled into pensions and so on and so forth because of time in service in local government? And the other question I asked you on the previous agenda item might be prudent here as well. How much of the savings are corporate and how much of it is departmental? If you can pick up those two areas. Okay. So, that the attraction of ERVR is to that particular group. It's not exclusively that, but it is to that particular group. The focus of ERVR is always the post and not the protected post. So, we don't see ERVR granted there. So, by definition, councillor, you end up that the areas that are most likely to be protected or exempt post. Does that help? And, sorry, I meant also in terms of overall budgetary efficiencies and savings that we were talking about. How much of it is corporate and realignment and so on and so forth and how much of it is departmental? So, in the current budget, I'm pleasantly surprised and relieved that the council's target to ensure that frontline services will monitor all those savings. So, I'm happy to send a full picture so that members can see it. Thank you, Julie. Councillor Ola, did you have a question? It's not a question, councillor. Chair, it's more of an observation. Given the, you said it's not the post, it's not the person who's a post. Some of us who have been around the town hall for a long time know there's quality, you know, spin. How do we plan that with the service heads? Because that's what I'm just mindful of. Open a gate for Christmas, a few people might think, you know what, it's dark day. Leadership team, and they then add their support or not. The final decision based on their recommendations is considered by CMT as a whole. So, sometimes ERVR is agreed, and it's agreed at a date allowing the development of perhaps a deputy, and the ERVR will kick in sometimes three months later. So, it's planned at an operational level, not central. Okay, Councillor Liz Lam, you had a question? Yeah. What's payback? I don't know what it is. The life of the MTFS. So, somebody can't go on a £500,000 package when it would only save us £50,000 a year because the payback, that ongoing saving to cover the cost of the investment. It's a standard industry measure of the... Because, so, 0.76 is because of where it appeared in the cycle of the budget. The cost of them going would be less than... Might cost £25,000 for them to go. So, you save £50,000, that's a payback period of 0.6 months. Sorry, that's fine, if you don't put the mic on. The second question around resources, but then we've got interim in this area as well and lots more new stuff. So, there's two reasons for that. Resources, I've already said to you, I took the decision to use acting up and not to replace the substantive posts. So, effectively allows us a lot of flexibility to create a new structure. So, third reason that you will see this in resources, you'll see it continue. It used to take teams of people an awful long time to do that. VAT and tax is now HMRC online. It used to take that. And that's why you're seeing those changes in the middle the most. Right. I hope all questions are answered. If we can note this item and move on to the next item, which is 4.5, Employee Relations Casework and Policy Quarterly Review. Can I ask the Council's Interim Director for OD and Workforce, Pauline Shakespeare, to present your report, please? Thank you. So, this report covers quarter two, which is July to September 2024. I'd like to bring to the committee's attention on page 38, which is the dashboard for Employee Relations. As you will see, we've got a total number of cases at the time this was produced of 106. Those were split down in terms of directorates as follows. Chief Exec's Office was five, Children's Services, 17, Communities, 42, Health, Adults, and Social Care was five, Housing and Regeneration, 25, Resources, 12. There is, in terms of where we are seeing a particular increase, so, for instance, in communities, I'd just like to point out, disciplinary of the 42, disciplinary is 17. As you will see across the piece, in terms of grievance, we are low, which is a good thing in terms of the Chief Exec's Office, Act 2, in Children's Services, we're at six, but you will note in communities that we're at 17, which is in terms of proportion, in terms of the number of cases that we have within that directorate, that is quite high. We're also seeing an increase in cases generally. What we have done, as the committee has asked previously for us to break down in terms of how many members of staff we have in directorates and what that looks like, we have added that detail at the bottom of page 38. So, again, we're looking at 3% in terms of the Chief Exec's Office, which has 194 staff, but in Children's Services, we're at 29% when there is 1,705 members of staff in that directorate. Equally, in communities, again, you'll notice that there is a trend and a theme of 1,575 there and 27% in terms of cases are allocated to that particular directorate. I'd also note for the committee that we have provided on page 39. We've also given it in a pictorial graph as well for your ease. I'd also like to just give a little bit of context for the committee. So, in terms of, as I've said, the report is from July 1st to the 30th of September 2024. I need to note, bring to your attention, that the number of formal cases are increasing. We are seeing an increase. This is not just related to Tower Hamlets. This is general in terms of this particular area across the London boroughs. But what we have done actively in terms of trying to mitigate is that we have been working, we are working with our union colleagues as well as senior management. We are providing additional training in terms of investigators in order to move cases through much swifter than perhaps we have done previously. We have started a program of training for all heads of service which started to take place in last month, in October, actually. Apologies. I forgot we're in December now. So that will help us in terms of having quality internal investigators to help us with those cases that actually do fall in the formal realm. I should also highlight that 65%, nearly 66% of cases that were closed with our current target benchmark of 120 days. Now, I know that you're likely to say 120 days is quite a long time. I would absolutely agree with you in that case. So I'll just highlight it myself. We are looking in terms of in some of the processes that we are now adopting that we can bring that number down in the future because that is still quite high although we are absolutely achieving the benchmark that we have ourselves set. If you're okay, do you want me to go on to policy or would you like me to pause for questions? Do members have questions around this part of the paper? So, before you come in, Abdi, I've just got a couple one around benchmarking with other councils. So you've stated that this is generally going up in London. Where are we in terms of total number of grievances or complaints or, you know, employee relation issues in line with... and you don't have to give the exact number but in terms of sort of are we in the upper quartile of these complaints coming in or lower quartile or mid-quartile and also in terms of closing cases, you've said 120 days is not good enough. What is your target of resolving or what is a good target benchmarking against other councils? So, in order to respond, so I sit on the heads of HR for London councils in which other HR directors are also sitting. So since I've joined seven weeks ago, that has been an immediate factor. So I'm able to look in terms of best practice across the other London boroughs and as part of general discussion, one of my first things was in terms of asking around this in terms of VR cases. In terms of quartiles where we are, that is, to be honest, a fluctuating question. So depending on size, you would need to look at size of employees that are in each of those boroughs to be able to get absolute proportionality in terms of what that looks like. We are, I would say, that we are middle. There are some that are higher, there are those that are lower. And again, in terms of what that would actually look like, I'd like to come back, I would say, in about six months' time in order to be able to give you a clear, in terms of benchmarking, with regards to that. And the second part of it, 120 days, is too long. Yes, so 120 days. So I'm basing that on work that I have done before. and so standard in terms of best practice, we talk at what we say is a long-term case is if we still got that case with us for the 90 days. So I would be looking for us to close cases within 90 days instead of our current 120. Thank you. Councillor Abdi Mohamed. Thank you, Chair. I've got a pretty dismissal, especially, for example, of gross misconduct. It's pretty high and it takes a, you know, rightfully so. There's a very long drawn-out process where that person is, as I said, in the 3.6, some suspensions around fraud or other areas. So how are we as a council learning from these, you know, these number of cases that, to stop this and to ensure fraud is a perfect example. I'm not talking about any one case, but how do we make sure that there's not a space for that fraud? We've got the learning from that session, but I would like to see us coming back, not just with a tip, but learning to be done there. So I think it's helpful with the corporate director of resources to answer that about the finance and it's very specific and I think that's great, but I think that is by the book, Judy, is a sound one. I think it's something we should really consider to. So, sorry, I'm just going to come in there. Maybe we can have a closed session or a training session around that, either for this committee or for councillors as a whole in terms of learning that we've got. It's a good idea. Yeah. Okay. Councillor Islam. Thank you. Firstly, thank you for adjusting how we want data represented to us in the future as well. I have a question around the table at the bottom of page 38 and communities, I can say confidently, is an area, if you look at the departments that are in it, is something that does have this level of cases in other boroughs because this is, looks like the chief exec's office is separated from the resources numbers, has 3% of the council staff, but also has 3% towards the same thing. Julie, if you may. Resource and chief exec's office isn't the same thing to cases. In the chief execs, there are 5 out of 194 and in proportion. So your question will be item that I will pick up on later on where we can give you an example of how we'll get that stability. But I don't think Pauline said the number I think where you have smaller sort of departments, those individual cases weigh greater percentage points. So sometimes the percentage goes up. And I think within workforces, sometimes you get a joint complaint internally within the department. So it might run through the unions. And so there may be 10, 12 people who are signatories to a particular type of complaint. And that could exponentially raise it as well. I'm going to move one last question. Make it very brief, please, because we're overrunning. Thank you, Chair, for indulging me. Just a really quick one. With children and with adults, we can rest assured that I think it's helpful. A simple yes would suffice. Yes, noted. Okay, so moving on. We're on to the AOB section. I know, Julie, you have a brief for AOB. Please be brief with the brief. And then we can move on. Okay, so it was just I wanted, as you are the HR committees, with those trade unions. So, yes, if it was a fruitful meeting, do we, can we get a note because unless the union tell us individually. So, can I suggest one of two actions? One, we invite the unions and in for the meeting of the 5th. and in the meantime, can I suggest that sorry? Yeah, so can I suggest Corporate Director of Resources arrange a meeting in relation to if members want to attend in relation to the unions and this issue? So, if I can say so, today what was reached was have we made against this agreement at your next meeting? Thank you. And with that we will, unless anybody's got any other I can see it from here. John, do you want to show off your T-shirt? Wee! All right. With that I hope everybody wait, Council Ola, not finished yet. Be seated. Okay, so with that I hope I want to thank officers and members for constructive discussion but there's a couple of announcements I do want to make and the first is that the council is collecting feedback from members about their experiences speaking at the meeting. If you wish please complete a paper copy of the survey after the meeting or if you want you can complete a survey online. There's a QR code to access the link which is over there somewhere and with that I will now close the meeting and wish everybody a happy festive period. Thank you. Good night all. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.
Summary
The committee noted the reports on the 2023/24 Early Retirement and Voluntary Redundancy scheme, the update on senior recruitment, and the quarterly review of employee relations casework. The committee also noted the proportionality calculations for the membership of the Appointments Sub-Committee and agreed to amend the membership arrangements to reflect them.
Corporate Directors Update
The Corporate Director for Place, Mr Simon Baxter, gave a verbal update on the directorate. He announced that the recruitment process for four director-level roles had started: Director of Public Realm, Director of Regeneration, Housing and Supply and Assets, Director of Housing Neighbourhoods and Customer Services, and Director of Areas. Mr Baxter is currently undertaking a review of the Place directorate that will, among other changes, slim down
the Public Realm department, which he considers far too big
. He argued that changes are necessary in part because of the results of the Council's annual resident survey, which showed dissatisfaction with the Council's performance on public safety.
“If you look to the annual resident survey, a lot of things have gone the right way, but safe communities wasn't one of those. So, again, that's another driver for change.”
Councillor Abdal Ullah expressed concern about how the restructuring of the directorate would impact on the Council's Climate Emergency response:
It doesn't make sense why it now does not have any connection to public realm. So that's a worry for me.
The Deputy Chief Executive, Julie Lorraine, said that the restructure would enhance or prioritise
the Council's work on the Climate Emergency. Councillor Ullah said that she would like to see a report on the impact of the restructure on the Climate Emergency at a future meeting.
Update on Senior Recruitment
The Deputy Chief Executive, Julie Lorraine, presented a report on the update on senior recruitment (Supplemental Pack - Senior Recrutiment Update 12th-Dec-2024 18.30 Human Resources Committee).
Councillor Asma Islam asked about the value for money represented by interim appointments.
So, with that, now that, with that piece, are we making the best use of public money here?
Ms Lorraine argued that acting up arrangements represent good value for money, and that interim arrangements are used while permanent recruitment processes take place. She also noted that some posts are kept as interim appointments while organisational changes affecting them are underway.
Councillor Abdi Mohamed asked what the average length of an interim appointment at Tower Hamlets was, and requested that future reports include data on the average tenure of interims. He also asked what steps were being taken to ensure that interims have cultural competency
and experience of working in Councils similar to Tower Hamlets. Ms Lorraine replied that the Council advertises all interim posts publicly and that appointments are made on merit.
2023-24 ER/VR Scheme Update
John Harrison, the Director of Corporate Efficiency, presented the 2023-24 ER/VR Scheme Update. The Council saved £2.78 million as a result of the scheme. The scheme involved one-off costs of £3.2 million, but Mr Harrison argued that the scheme represented good value for money because this cost would be recovered within 1.15 years.
Councillor Mohamed asked about the projected savings from the scheme over its lifetime. Mr Harrison responded that the scheme was expected to deliver savings of over £8 million by year three.
Councillor Islam asked for clarification on whether the savings were attributable to payouts
or if they were attributable to reduced pension contributions. Ms Lorraine said that the savings were mainly attributable to reduced pension contributions, because older staff with longer service tend to be on higher salaries. She explained that the scheme was targeted at those staff.
Employee Relations Casework and Policy Quarterly Review
Pauline Shakespeare, the Interim Director of Workforce, OD and Business Support, presented the ER Casework Policy Dashboard Q2 2024-2025. She reported that there had been 106 formal employee relations cases in quarter two, a significant increase on the previous quarter. 65% of cases had been closed within the Council's 120 day target for resolving cases.
Ms Shakespeare noted that the Committee had previously requested that the report should include the number of staff in each directorate, to provide context for the casework figures.
Councillor Ahmed asked how Tower Hamlets compared to other London Boroughs in terms of the number of employee relations cases, and asked what the target resolution time for a case should be. Ms Shakespeare said that Tower Hamlets was in the middle range for case numbers, compared to other Boroughs. She said that she considered 120 days to be too long, and that the Council should be aiming to resolve cases within 90 days.
Councillor Mohamed asked how the Council learns from disciplinary cases, particularly in relation to gross misconduct and fraud.
So how are we as a council learning from these, you know, these number of cases that, to stop this and to ensure fraud is a perfect example. I'm not talking about any one case, but how do we make sure that there's not a space for that fraud?
Ms Lorraine said that the Council has robust internal audit procedures to detect fraud and that all cases of fraud are investigated thoroughly. Councillor Ahmed suggested that a training session could be held for Councillors on lessons learned from disciplinary cases.
Councillor Islam asked about the high proportion of employee relations cases in the Communities directorate. Ms Lorraine explained that this could be due to a number of factors, including the size of the directorate and the nature of the work that is undertaken there.
I think where you have smaller sort of departments, those individual cases weigh greater percentage points. So sometimes the percentage goes up. And I think within workforces, sometimes you get a joint complaint internally within the department. So it might run through the unions. And so there may be 10, 12 people who are signatories to a particular type of complaint. And that could exponentially raise it as well.
Councillor Ullah asked if the Council has sufficient safeguards in place to protect vulnerable children and adults where an employee with a safeguarding role is facing disciplinary action or a grievance. Ms Lorraine said that the Council always takes appropriate steps to protect vulnerable people in these circumstances.
Attendees
- Abdal Ullah
- Abdi Mohamed
- Abdul Malik
- Asma Islam
- Marc Francis
- Rebaka Sultana
- Elizabeth Asante-Twumasi
- Jed Scoles
Documents
- Supplemental Pack - Senior Recrutiment Update 12th-Dec-2024 18.30 Human Resources Committee other
- Update on Senior Recruitment December 2024 Final 1i other
- Agenda frontsheet 12th-Dec-2024 18.30 Human Resources Committee agenda
- Public reports pack 12th-Dec-2024 18.30 Human Resources Committee reports pack
- Declarations of Interest Note other
- Printed minutes 26092024 1830 Human Resources Committee other
- HumanResourcesCommitteeWorkPlan2024-2025
- AppointmentsSubCommittee membership
- 2023-24 ERVR Scheme Update
- ER Casework Policy Dashboard Q2 2024-2025