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Licensing Sub Committee - Thursday, 12th December, 2024 2.30 p.m.
December 12, 2024 View on council website Watch video of meetingTranscript
May I say good afternoon to everybody and welcome to, I'm just checking, yep, we are absolutely on time, welcome to this meeting of the Licensing Subcommittee of the London Borough of Tower Hamlets. My name is Peter Golds and I am a serving councillor and chair of the Licensing Committee. The meeting is being held in person and online but all committee members and key participants are present in the meeting room but there will be some people who wish to participate who will be joining us online for which I say good afternoon, I'm very pleased to see you, thank you very much. The meeting is filmed for the council's website and will be available for public viewing. I would ask everyone attending only speak at my direction and speak clearly into the microphones so that their contributions can be recorded. May I say I despair at sometimes these committee meetings and council meetings when you finish your contributions switch the microphone off because if more than one microphone is on it can't be heard on the system. May I move to the formal item on the agenda which is apologies for absence, we don't formally have apologies because we are a committee of three and if we don't have three we are most certainly a committee and everybody is present. May I now invite people to introduce themselves starting with our Licensing Officer sitting at the end. Thank you, Chair. I'm Moshin Ali from the Licensing Section. Thank you. Simi Yasmin, Democratic Services. David Wong from Legal Services here to provide legal advice to the councillors. I'm Councillor Sillikarmi, the President's Federalist in Bangalore-Town Ward. Thank you, Chair. Councillor Annemeya from Shedden Ward. Thank you very much. We have reached that point. Do any members have any declarations of disposable peculiar interest? I have none. Colleagues? I have none. I don't know. Miss Yasmin, there are no declarations of interest. Can I invite members to note, everybody present, to note the rules of procedure on pages 9 to 18 of the agenda which show how we operate and can I formally now move to item 3 to that members note and approve the meeting, agree the meeting, held on the 8th of October, which are on pages 19 to 28 on the agenda. If you would like to have a look, as always, they're beautifully written and I'm certain absolutely accurate. Is that approved, colleagues? Thank you very much. Would you like to take your seat quiet, please? We now move to item 4.1 on the agenda, which was for an application for a news premises licence for float at 129 Bethnal Green Road, London E27DG. The issues relating to this application have been withdrawn, therefore there is no requirement to consider the report, at which we go to item 4.2, which is an application for variation of the premises licence for Wellcome Co-op, Unit 2, 68 Smead Road, London E32TF. Miss Yasmin, will you inform us who is present? Thank you, Chair. For this application, we have the licensing representative, Mr Suresh Kanapathy, and Suki... 6-5. ...representing the applicant. Those that made representation, we have Lindsay Stanto online today. After the application has been presented, the applicant will be invited to speak and will be given a total of 10 minutes to make their representation. The objectors will also be given a total of 10 minutes to make their representation. I will let each speaker know when they have one minute remaining. Thank you, Chair. Is everybody understood on that? Are you okay with that? Thank you. Thank you. Everybody has understood on that. Thank you. I now invite Mr Motion Alley, who is our licensing officer, to introduce the report. When people are speaking to the reports, may I request that they go to the page numbers, because there is nothing more difficult. We have a hefty agenda before us. I've read mine before the meeting, but if you're referring to pages, please refer to the numbers, because otherwise we'll be flicking pages over and not knowing what we're at. I'd now like to invite Mr Alley to introduce the report. Thank you, Chair. The first point I want to start with is you'll note that there's an issue with an address, what the actual address is of the premises. So, as it stands, it's currently listed as Unit A to 68 Smead Road, E3 to TF on the current license, and the Council's database has it as 79 to 85 Monier Road. So, the point I want to make is if the applicant can start, when they do their presentation, if they can start with the clarification of what the actual address is before moving forward. Going through the report, you'll see a copy of the existing license in Appendix 1, which is pages 106 to 116. A copy of the application is in Appendix 2, pages 118 to 130. Just for members' information, the current license is for a sale of alcohol from Monday to Sunday, 8 a.m. to 10 p.m., and the opening hours is 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. They're seeking to extend this to midnight, and also wish to add the provision of late-night refreshment, and also the opening hours, same hours. So, that's 6 a.m. until midnight. Maps of the vicinity is in Appendix 3, page 132. Photographs of the venues is in Appendix 4, page 134. Details of the nearest license venues in the vicinity is in Appendix 5, pages 136, 139. The representation is one supporting and one objecting. So, in Appendix 6, pages 141 to 143, you'll see the objection, and the supporting representation is in Appendix 7, pages 145. The objections, or the representations, are in relation to the licensing objective of the prevention of crime and disorder, prevention of public nuisance, and public safety. 8.0 of the report shows you the conditions that have been agreed already with the police. That's pages 147 to 149. And then, members are given general advice in relation to the Council's licensing policy and the government guidance under Section 182, in Appendices 9 to 16, pages 151 to 173. You will also note that the applicant has submitted additional documents in support of their application, whereby they've offered additional measures to those that have made representation, and that's been included and circulated as well. That's the summary of the report. And as members of any further questions, thank you. College, do you have any questions to the applicant? I'm sorry, not to the applicant, to the officer. Before we get formally, I think we need to clear up one matter, and these are the importance, and I go directly to the applicants. What is the actual address? Could you use the mic? Thank you. Yeah, the address is 16, so Unit 268, Smith Road, London E3, 2GF. That is the correct address. And we understand, apparently, there's a database with the Council have a different address. So, apparently, I was speaking to the landlord. I think that address possibly is the address of the landlord, right, where he registered the building. I'm slightly more confused again. Can you turn that off, please? I remain confused. What is the actual address? If I were to go, if I were to go, if a delivery comes or something, or one wishes to put a letter through the door, or you put an advert, what is the actual address? Can I assist, Chair? This is an application, of course, for a variation of the existing license. I think what may assist you and your colleagues is, if you look at page 107, the copy of the premises license that the applicant seeks to vary has the premises down as Unit A268, Smead Road. I would respectfully suggest that, if any doubt lingers as to which premises or what the proper address is, I think, actually, that is what you take. Put another way, I don't think it's rational to deviate from that, because otherwise, what are you doing? You're then, basically, having a totally different premises address, if you were to grant the variation agreed, and that cannot possibly make sense. So, therefore, for today's purposes, my advice is treat it as given on the premises license as exists, Unit A268, Smead Road. Thank you very much. Chair, I think we can confirm A268. Please, only, if you come on time, you'd have heard me giving the House rules. You contribute when you're, you signal you wish to contribute, and then you're called, not in advance. Thank you. We have no comments from the, we have no questions to the licensing officer. The legal officer has, I think, more or less, queried this address off. I'm now going to invite the applicant to present their application, which will be for five minutes. And you have five minutes, starting from now. I'm semi-timed, sure. Thank you. Councilor, salute. So, yeah, just to, just to, for clarification, what are we treating this address as? I think we're at David Wong, with the addresses as the addresses on the application, which is Unit 268, Smead Road, E3, 2TF. Yep. All right. Thank you, Chair. I understand you've been waiting for six, seven minutes to see at that. It's just happened today with the traffic, but thank you. And, Chair, so we have put these applications, and why we are here today, and we had a tour of presentation. One is to support the application. The other one is to object to the applications. Chair, so in the objection, I would like to go straight to address this objection, Chair. So, when you look at this objection from Lindsay, she's one of the residents, and I've been speaking to her about her objections. So, Chair, I think, so her objections is to do with, so when I'm going through the paragraph here, and the last paragraph on the page 141 sees that current conditions are, we put, is adequate enough. I'll come to that, why we said that, but also, we dispute about what she said about the conditions 12 and 15, and I had a conversation with her about that as well, but all the conditions are in place to address that. And, Chair, I think one of the things she said on the paragraph that, as a local resident, she's impacted by the activities of the Wellcome Corp. So, the manager is here, Chair. I think when this premises was open three years ago, she actually came down and talked to them as well about a few issues, and they've been working together with her as a partnership. It wasn't like a complaint about where the trolleys are, that's disturbing her as they're passing through and things like that, the operation of it. And they've been working together, and they've been working together, and they've been working with her, that was sorted since then. There's no more complaints or anything like that from any residents to this store, Chair, over the two years now. And now, one of the, one of the things she mentioned, it is about the activities of this store. Chair, you know, when we look at the, what are the activities, that's what we wanted to look at. I think further on, she mentioned about, on the point number one, increase noise pollutions, and she said increase food traffic. So, the thing is, this particular premises is for the local residents, and they are the one coming to shop. And if they don't, if they can't shop in place, they have to walk down to so many other premises, it's open midnight, and beyond that as well, you can see from the premises. So, having a license for this place is actually, is going to help. In a way, the residents don't have to go too far, you know, and also they can just pop in quickly and get something and go up. And also, the other residents said something about, you know, whether this premises open until midnight or not, there will be traffic, like people coming around. What's happened is, when, the reason the store is opening late, because there are people coming back to, back from work. They finish work, probably some people finish at 10, 11, and they come late at night, and they want to buy something to eat. So, if this store is not open, they would rather order from somebody, so the delivery is going to come. So, that's one of the reasons, the person who is supporting also. So, now they can quickly pop down, or on the way home, they can go to the shop and buy something, or make something at home to eat, or they could buy some other fresh food to eat. So, this is the important thing, food traffic, right? And delivery vehicles, and something that I was talking to her, that delivery vehicles. So, we have a condescens, we have a condescens, on the, on the page 3 of the agenda 4.2, there's a condescens number 2. So, an additional condescens, no deliveries to the premises that take place between 9 and 6 in the morning, on the following day. And I was speaking to Lindsay, and then her concern about deliveries coming, if the store is opening 6 o'clock, deliveries coming before 6. So, now, now I want to say something about that delivery. And then she put other general activities in the vicinity, I mean, which is not very clear about what other activities to be. But it is clear, Chair, you know, what are the activities, mainly we are talking about deliveries, and customers coming in, and going out. And now, the thing we are looking, and people loitering as well, but it hasn't happened at all. Nobody loiter, the people live in that area, like very decent, and they are just a general working people. And they just buy something, they go home. Nobody hang around, there's no reason to hang around as well. And now, the thing, it never happens. So, now, coming back to these condescens, we put a condescens number 1, and additional condescens of 5, I am talking about, part of the additional documents. So, the condescens number 1 says the collection above the waste. So, the existing condescens, number 3, on the current license, also addresses the same thing. I think, but what we put here, let me just stick to that, to the condescens. So, condescens number 3, page 112, yeah, page 111, and then 112, that's where the things are starting. So, deliveries collected, okay, so, I think number 3, condescens number 3 can be amended to state the hours. So, what we wanted to do there, Chair, I think that's one of the reasons we put this additional condescens, so the 3 to be amended, with the hours indicated between 22 and 8. So, there won't be any waste collection, recycling, picking up, anything, you know, which could add to noise. And then, 2, we are adding extra, condescens number 2, and the 3, also, I think, we're gonna, there's a condescens number 12, which is a similar condescens, but we put that there for addressing to the residents, really. So, the condescens number 3 could be ignored, as the condescens number 12 is there, kind of addressing the same thing. And condescens number 4, we are adding extra, so, we will make sure any other, like, no noise shall emanate from the premises, no vibration cause any nuisance to people, and it hasn't happened, and it won't happen, but we put it as part of the condescens. And the condescens number 5, also, can be ignored, because condescens number 15, on the current licence, addresses that. So, Chair, what we are here today, is about really addressing the public nuisance... Do you have one minute remaining? One minute. One minute. Oh, thank you. So, what we are here today to really address the prevention of public nuisance objectives, mainly. And, you know, the police are not here, the environmental health officers are not here, there's no complaints, it's been needed, no authorities are here. So, I mean, we accepted some condescens with the police, and all the other authorities as well, to address the other licensing objectives. So, we are here for the residents' objective of prevention of public nuisance, and we have added some condescens to manage that. And the premises has been managed perfectly, you know, there are managers, assistant managers, and the owner as well. So, concerning all of this, Chair, I think we don't see any reasons, you know, that the concerns raised by the customer, that the objective, cannot be addressed through the conditions we provided. Thank you. Twong, you wanted something to say, which might be helpful for the person. I'll move on to the other chapter, yes. Yep. Before we move on to the object, Ms. Lindsay Starnow, I've been pronouncing your name correctly. Yes, I can see she's nodding, thank you. Just a preface to assist the council members and also the parties to this case. I'm referring specifically to pages 141 to 143 of the agenda pack. And the, whilst appreciating that Ms. Starnow has taken a great deal of trouble to set out her objections and her representations, I would advise the counsellors that, of course, they should remember that only those matters, and this applies equally to anything said by the applicant through his licensing representative today, only that you can only take on board those things which pertain directly to one or more of the following four licensing objectives. Now, going to pages 141, 142 and 143, the following numbered paragraphs are relevant to one or more of those licensing objectives. So, paragraph number one, paragraph number three, number four, five and six, number seven, and I regret to advise, I'm sorry if this upsets or disappoints the objector, but apply the strict remit of the legal proviso set out by the legal proviso set out by the, in relation to the licensing objectives. Licensing members have to discount paragraph numbers two, eight, nine, and ten. And just to clarify, it's exactly for the reasons which I've outlined a few seconds ago. Thank you. Ms. Dana, that means you've got five minutes, but if you could concentrate on the matters that are relevant to the licensing committee, it will help the time you have and help us. And, as I say, the floor is yours, and we look forward to hearing from you, and you'll have five minutes. Thank you very much. Can you hear me okay? Yep. Okay, perfect. I'll focus today on the consideration of prevention of public nuisance and crime and disorder. Maybe I'll just introduce myself very quickly. I am Ms. Tanno. I own a property right above the Wellcome Shop on the third floor, address 72 Smead Road. And I'm a director of Monier Road Hackney Wick Management Company, who's the resident association. No, no, please don't say all that, because this is public, and you're giving away private information. It's very well to say that you are a resident, and we move on. Okay, no problem. So, I want to specify that I am not against the license that has been granted in 2022 to the Wellcome at the time I didn't make any representation. What I am concerned about is the extension of the opening hours and the extension of the hours for the licensable activity, which is the sale of alcohol. I have had three conversations with the licensing agent present in the room. The conditions that we have discussed didn't give me comfort that my concerns were being addressed. The conditions they have submitted to the council afterwards are basically a recap of what was already in the license in 2022. I'm referring to the conditions 12 and 15. They've added some timing for delivery and waste collection, which makes matters worse than what they are at the moment. So, when I raised my representation, I based myself on guidelines that have been issued by the Association of Convenience Tours, which Wellcome is a member of, and they recommend that within the London residential areas, opening hours are between 7 and 8 a.m. to 9 and 10 p.m., which is aligned with what they had initially asked in 2022 when they opened the store, and that any variance to that should be considered based on customer demand, business needs, and community standards. So, that's really what I base myself on. When it comes to the area, this is a very quiet area of Fish Island, a very narrow street. Mead Road is a very narrow street. There are apartments above, and on either side of it, there is a mosque and a playground for children that's right after it. I think that the opening hours and licensing hours provided right now are fit for purpose. People can come and grab whatever they need before and after work, school, and uni. And it's aligned with what other shops in the area have as well in terms of their licensing hours and opening hours. I think the council has granted about six licenses for similar activities since 2021 when this area became residential. And I'm pleased to say that on those six, there has been common standards that have been established so that minimum nuisance would be applied to residents. That means that nobody, and this is a mix of shops and, you know, restaurants and premises that have a mix of activities. None of those venues, they are selling off-premises alcohol after 10.30 p.m. And none of them get deliveries before 7 or 8 a.m. So if this variation of license was granted to the co-op, this would not align with the great work that has been done by a resident and council in venues alike in the area to protect, you know, the good harmony of all of us. We also have experience of the nuisances that early deliveries cause with Gadasia Slaughterhouse. That's right across the co-op. And there are live complaints with your noise pollution team about those. Unfortunately, there are no license conditions there because they've been established for many years. So I would really hope that we can come to times that make sure that we do not replicate the nuisances that we're currently having with Gadasia. And finally, I'd just like to point out, I've also looked at the welcome venues that are available online publicly. I have found 14 stores across the UK, including seven in London. Of those in London, only one opens their store at 6 a.m. And they're based on the main commercial road on their way to the station, which is very not what we are. And only one of them opens after 11, which is the same store. I really question the need for this particular store to be open and sell alcohol from 6 a.m. and midnight Monday to Sunday, while the rest of their estate in London is majorly 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. So, based on all those, I just think that the request from the applicant is not in line with, one, what has been done in the area since it became very residential and, two, with the rest of the estate. So I'd welcome us looking at alternatives to that proposal. Thank you. Thank you very much. That was mostly similar. Mr. Wong. Yes. I would request to a bit of further advice for the members in relation to one or two matters raised by Ms. Starno. And she has referred you to, I think I'm right in saying it was 14 other well-come co-op stores and what's happened in relation to their opening hours and so and so forth and other license permits in the area. Um, I would advise members that, um, in considering what you need to need to consider this afternoon. You can only consider this application on its own merits and the circumstance of these premises in relation to its own circumstances, nothing else. Thank you, Mr. Wong. Thank you, Mr. Wong. I, I should mention to Ms. Stoner, when we began, I mentioned that this is broadcast line, so when I, live, so when I drew your attention suddenly, you were, you revealed, or you were about to reveal your home address and for your own security. We, we, we, we're very, very protective of people, which is why I drew a lot. Understood. And, um, as much as you may wish to do so, we didn't want to be responsible for your home address being potentially broadcast across the nation. Understood. Sorry, apologies. I apologize. We have to apologize. We're trying to help you and as long as you, you understood that we're being helpful to you. Yes. Yes, I do. Um, we now move to questions to, um, both the applicant and the objector and my first one is to the applicant. If you go to page 148, 149, you will see that the police, um, the police, um, request to say that they were holding, but they requested a number of additions. May I, um, would you accept those conditions? You would accept those conditions. So, in the event, in the event, were we mindful to grant, we would add those to the list of conditions. If we turn to 111 and 114, which are the conditions, the long list of conditions, we, were we, again, were we mindful to grant, it is, there's a bit of generality here. It says, if we go to, go to 113, number 13, all deliveries and waste collections to the premises will take place at a time as not to cause a disturbance to the nearby residents. Would you be, would you, would you consider offering a timeframe for that, which would, which is what we have on many other similar applications? There's actually a time scale on that, um, which I think would be helpful. Okay, I'll go. Yeah. Uh, we can say eight o'clock in the evening to six o'clock in the morning. No. Eight o'clock in the morning to six o'clock in the evening. No, no. The waste collection. I can't believe that. Wait, wait, wait. So, collection to the waste at a time as to not cause a disturbance. So, what we are saying, that no collections of, uh, waste and recycling material taking place, even in the boroughs, between, uh, 8 p.m. in the evening, in the morning, you don't do the waste collections. Yeah. Right? Six, like, 8, uh, 8 p.m. to 6 a.m. in the morning. Is that collections, is that collections or deliveries? That's a collection, going out the waste and things like that. Well, that, that's helpful. What about delivery? 8 p.m. to 6 a.m. in the morning. Yeah. Delivery is coming in. So, we are saying 8 p.m. to 7 a.m. in the morning. Chair, through you, can I just clarify one thing. So, Mr Suresh, you sent in the supporting documents, um, yesterday. So, on here, we've got condition one, that you put forward to Ms Lindsay Stanton. No, no collections of waste or recycling materials, including bottles from the premises, shall take place between 10 p.m. So, it's 2200 hours to 8 a.m. the following day. Yeah. So, are you changing that? Yeah, we are changing that to 8 a.m. now. So, between 8 p.m. to 6 a.m. Yeah. Okay. That's up. We've lost two hours off that. What about on the, um, delivery? Deliveries. Deliveries. Deliveries. Deliveries. Deliveries. Deliveries. Deliveries. Deliveries. Deliveries. So, that we are saying, we said 9, we're going to say 8 p.m. So, 2200. To morning 7 a.m. Because I think, um, we want to make sure, you know, it doesn't... It's quite clear that there will not be either delivering or collection during what most of us will call the night time period. Yeah. Thank you. Wow. Certainly. Um, where were we talking about that? Thank you, Chair. Um, just want to make clear on the thing, um, Mr. Rudy's, um, on the same page, page 113, where it says, um, what should be kept securely and, uh, in the designated area and the moment of the beans and rubbish shall be kept in minimum at all times to reduce the level of noise and produce, uh, a lot of noise produced by the premises. When you say minimum, what do you mean by minimum? How are we going to cope with your rubbish if you, if you've got something minimum? And what is the maximum? And how are we going to cope with the rest? Uh, that condescends, um, the real advisor can say, because I think now we are giving a timeframe to it, so the minimum can be taken away. So, before, it's just generally said it's minimum. Now we are putting a timeframe. We could say waste, um, hold on, waste will be kept securely at the moment of beans, rubbish will be kept in minimum at all time. Well, okay, what do you mean? Sorry, I think I was trying to understand this. Okay. So, that is in addition to the time we have given. But now that we have time given, so there's nothing is going to happen between those time periods. So, that condescends is, um, uh, I love this. Deliberate for a collection. I love that. Yeah. So, this is, um, we are talking about. The management fully understand that it's there due to prevent causing any nuisance. Right? Okay, that's fine. And movement of beans and rubbish will be kept to minimum at all time, reduce the level. So, all your rubbish, okay. So, all the rubbish are kept in a designated area. So, what we save at minimum, I think I'll come back to that. So, the minimum mean, you know, they don't, they make sure, you know, when they're moving around, they don't do it in a hard ways to make. Okay. Just one more question. Yeah. Just, uh, in terms of collection, who does collect steel waste? Is it a private, uh, collector or somebody that you could, you could appoint a time? Or someone who collects, uh, at their own time? Yeah. The collection done by the co-op management. They have a waste and recycling collections. Yeah. So, just to say, uh, whenever they come to deliver, they do the collection at the same time, waste collections. Um, further question from me. There is reference to the provision of late-night refreshment. What does that mean? So, they have, like, a copy machine, and a tea, and they have a light Cinex. Like, . Thank you. I think, any more questions, colleagues? I think we've exhausted questions. Am I okay? No. Um, oh, Mr. I'm going to ask Mr. Wong, but, um, the objective, you had your hand up. Do you have a query? Uh, I do. I have a, a, a, a clarification question, if I may. Go ahead. Yeah. Thank you. Um, so, my understanding is, um, as it was mentioned, that collection of waste is done during deliveries. So, how will that work if delivery times is different from waste collection? I'm not quite sure how that works. And also, um, the applicant mentioned that the waste is kept in a designated area. Uh, I'd be curious to know where that area is, because currently, they're keeping waste outside in metallic trolleys, waiting a few hours for collections to take place. And that also creates noise. And this is also a breach of the leasehold. So, I, I just would like to understand what is that designated area they're discussing about. Yeah. I, I get. They're two quite interesting points there, perhaps. I, I mean, I'd make one observation to, um, rubbish collection and waste collection is quite different from deliveries. I mean, we're talking of delivery will be people delivering goods for sale. So, I mean, they're quite different. We've put separate conditions on them. They're done as two quite different disciplines. Um, it's interesting, um, that you've mentioned that the delivery, that the rubbish is kept outside, as opposed in the designated area. I, I'd like to put that to the applicant. Thank you, Chair. I think the waste are managed inside the store. They have a space for that. Could you repeat that again? I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. The waste are managed inside the store. There's no space outside. So, they have a space inside. Um, only to clarify that, um, that actually isn't strictly scope for any parties to be adding onto the representations, um, uh, made. Whilst I'm on, though, um, and just to assist the members, can I, on their behalf, ask a couple of questions. One is of, to, the first one is to Ms. Starno. Uh, Ms. Starno, um, you, your representations, uh, refer to noise disturbance and other disruptions to residents, which you complain about in relation to the premises. Um, have you raised those with the premises management? And if so, what was the outcome? So, I have raised new events, for instance, when it comes to their ventilation system. Uh, so I see Suki, the manager, is there, so he can attest to that. We've had a few conversations. Uh, my flat, um, is impacted by that pretty heavily. Um, Suki has, has tried to support, but he has said that nothing can be done about this ventilation. So, the issue is that because the doors are kept open and all the fridges are, you know, on full blast, especially in the summer, that ventilation overworks. And then it takes a very long time to cool down. So, if the shop closes at 10, it stops, uh, running very noisily around midnight one. So, if the shop now closes at midnight, it's going to be nuisance from that ventilation until at least two in the morning, every day, Monday to Sunday. Um, I've also complained to him about the trolleys that they can keep outside. So, waste may be managed inside, but at least their recycling, for sure, is kept outside in all of those metallic trolleys. And the, the collection of waste is done at the same time as the delivery of food comes, you know, they do a swap. So, I have complained about that. They've also received letters about that, um, saying that this should not be the case. And I understand that the council has also asked them not to keep those trolleys with waste overnight, because it's a health and safety concern. So, right now they don't do it at night anymore. That's great. But they do keep those outside. So, this also creates noise as they move those metallic trolleys, um, in and out. And there's also been, um, public nuisance with, you know, uh, people fighting outside of the trolleys. It's not happened very often. As I say in my representation, these antisocial behaviors have been kept to a minimum because the opening hours, you know, they, they are right. But if this stays later and the other venues around do not sell alcohol, for instance, and this is the only place around that, that will do, then there is a very high chance that those antisocial behavior escalate, um, beyond what they are today. Thanks very much. Um, the other question which I sought to ask to assist the councillors is the licensing officer. Um, are there any records of any of Mistano's complaints? Does the council have any? Um, I've already looked. There's no, um, complaints to the licensing. I'm not sure about other departments, but there's none in the licensing section. We now move to the concluding, concluding, um, um, comments and I invite both the applicant and the objector to sum up. Um, we use, we use, we give you a minute for that and we reverse the order. So the applicant will be first. Yeah. Um, thank you, chair. And, um, so we have actually satisfactorily addressed the concerns raised by the, um, objector and much more than that through air conditions on the license. Um, and the manager here has been working with the residents. And, um, so the thing is, um, with the trolley and all being managed and since he has addressed that, um, and then this happened two years ago and the last two years there were no complaints from the residents here. And the other things I wanted to say, as he mentioned about this ventilations, that actually is being secured without making any noise. And as soon as they close the shop, some of these machines are off and they don't take two hours to cool down, you know, um, and it's just cool down very quickly. Um, and yeah, that's what we wanted to say. Thank you, chair. Thank you very much. Could I now invite the objector to sum up, please? I'm sorry to ask before I do, can you please clarify what I should sum up? My, my position? Is that it? It's completely up to you what you'd like, like, you would like us to know before we, we do. Okay. Oh, okay. I understand. Uh, well, uh, with due respect, um, licensing agent, I do live above the shop. Suki and I have talked many times. Uh, they do know that very recently they still received those letters above their waste collection. So that can be very easily verified. Uh, the issue with the ventilation is not made up either. Uh, they are also exchanged about that. And, uh, my conclusion here is I am not against this shop being in activity. I think it's useful for the community. I'm just concerned about the extension of their licensing hours and opening hours, uh, essentially. So I would love those to be reviewed a bit, uh, earlier, uh, with even a caveat for Friday to Saturday, but opening every day from 6am to midnight is very late. And then when it comes to delivery and, um, waste collection, I'd really appreciate, uh, 9am or what did you say? 8pm to 8am window without waste and collection with the exception for your bread delivery, uh, at 7am, which happens currently. It is noisy, but we could live with that if you were sending the big massive co-op truck with the, you know, the platform that you lift up and down and all those trolleys at 7am. That is very disturbing for all of us because the street is very narrow and the noise travels. So that is it. Thank you very much. It's good to hear from you. Um, the subcommittee will now deliberate in a private session. The result of our deliberations will be sent to both of you and which, and it will be in by form of a letter from Ms. Yasmin, which you will receive within five working days. You can, of course, um, object to it, should you, or seek, or seek an objection from it. Um, I should point out that when we adjourn, we will be assisted by Mr. Wong, who is here for legal advice. Ms. Yasmin will take note of our deliberations. So in the event of any further action, that there is a note of how we deliberate and you will be told in the letter whether the meeting, whether the decision was unanimous or by majority. As a matter of course for you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. So we've now conclude that part of the meeting. And I formally ask number five, Ms. Yasmin, do we have any extensions? Yes, Chair, um, can I please ask members and Chair to agree the following applications to be extended to February, um, 2025. Um, first application of Portuguese Love Affair Basement, 324 Hackney Road, London E278X. Agreed. Um, Hargan Express Bar, Unit 230 South, um, London E145EZ. Agreed. Um, Highway Service Station 102-106, the Highway London E1W. Agreed. And lastly, the Dorset Canary War, 48 March War, London E149TP. Agreed. Okay. Thank you, Chair. I'm sure she said agreed each time. I think we're agreeing on applications. Can you close the meeting, Chair? Um, I formally close the meeting now. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Transcript
May I say good afternoon to everybody and welcome to, I'm just checking, yep, we are absolutely on time, welcome to this meeting of the Licensing Subcommittee of the London Borough of Tower Hamlets. My name is Peter Golds and I am a serving councillor and chair of the Licensing Committee. The meeting is being held in person and online but all committee members and key participants are present in the meeting room but there will be some people who wish to participate who will be joining us online for which I say good afternoon, I'm very pleased to see you, thank you very much. The meeting is filmed for the council's website and will be available for public viewing. I would ask everyone attending only speak at my direction and speak clearly into the microphones so that their contributions can be recorded. May I say I despair at sometimes these committee meetings and council meetings when you finish your contributions switch the microphone off because if more than one microphone is on it can't be heard on the system. May I move to the formal item on the agenda which is apologies for absence, we don't formally have apologies because we are a committee of three and if we don't have three we are most certainly a committee and everybody is present. May I now invite people to introduce themselves starting with our Licensing Officer sitting at the end. Thank you, Chair. I'm Moshin Ali from the Licensing Section. Thank you. Simi Yasmin, Democratic Services. David Wong from Legal Services here to provide legal advice to the councillors. I'm Councillor Sillikarmi, the President's Federalist in Bangalore-Town Ward. Thank you, Chair. Councillor Annemeya from Shedden Ward. Thank you very much. We have reached that point. Do any members have any declarations of disposable peculiar interest? I have none. Colleagues? I have none. I don't know. Miss Yasmin, there are no declarations of interest. Can I invite members to note, everybody present, to note the rules of procedure on pages 9 to 18 of the agenda which show how we operate and can I formally now move to item 3 to that members note and approve the meeting, agree the meeting, held on the 8th of October, which are on pages 19 to 28 on the agenda. If you would like to have a look, as always, they're beautifully written and I'm certain absolutely accurate. Is that approved, colleagues? Thank you very much. Would you like to take your seat quiet, please? We now move to item 4.1 on the agenda, which was for an application for a news premises licence for float at 129 Bethnal Green Road, London E27DG. The issues relating to this application have been withdrawn, therefore there is no requirement to consider the report, at which we go to item 4.2, which is an application for variation of the premises licence for Wellcome Co-op, Unit 2, 68 Smead Road, London E32TF. Miss Yasmin, will you inform us who is present? Thank you, Chair. For this application, we have the licensing representative, Mr Suresh Kanapathy, and Suki... 6-5. ...representing the applicant. Those that made representation, we have Lindsay Stanto online today. After the application has been presented, the applicant will be invited to speak and will be given a total of 10 minutes to make their representation. The objectors will also be given a total of 10 minutes to make their representation. I will let each speaker know when they have one minute remaining. Thank you, Chair. Is everybody understood on that? Are you okay with that? Thank you. Thank you. Everybody has understood on that. Thank you. I now invite Mr Motion Alley, who is our licensing officer, to introduce the report. When people are speaking to the reports, may I request that they go to the page numbers, because there is nothing more difficult. We have a hefty agenda before us. I've read mine before the meeting, but if you're referring to pages, please refer to the numbers, because otherwise we'll be flicking pages over and not knowing what we're at. I'd now like to invite Mr Alley to introduce the report. Thank you, Chair. The first point I want to start with is you'll note that there's an issue with an address, what the actual address is of the premises. So, as it stands, it's currently listed as Unit A to 68 Smead Road, E3 to TF on the current license, and the Council's database has it as 79 to 85 Monier Road. So, the point I want to make is if the applicant can start, when they do their presentation, if they can start with the clarification of what the actual address is before moving forward. Going through the report, you'll see a copy of the existing license in Appendix 1, which is pages 106 to 116. A copy of the application is in Appendix 2, pages 118 to 130. Just for members' information, the current license is for a sale of alcohol from Monday to Sunday, 8 a.m. to 10 p.m., and the opening hours is 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. They're seeking to extend this to midnight, and also wish to add the provision of late-night refreshment, and also the opening hours, same hours. So, that's 6 a.m. until midnight. Maps of the vicinity is in Appendix 3, page 132. Photographs of the venues is in Appendix 4, page 134. Details of the nearest license venues in the vicinity is in Appendix 5, pages 136, 139. The representation is one supporting and one objecting. So, in Appendix 6, pages 141 to 143, you'll see the objection, and the supporting representation is in Appendix 7, pages 145. The objections, or the representations, are in relation to the licensing objective of the prevention of crime and disorder, prevention of public nuisance, and public safety. 8.0 of the report shows you the conditions that have been agreed already with the police. That's pages 147 to 149. And then, members are given general advice in relation to the Council's licensing policy and the government guidance under Section 182, in Appendices 9 to 16, pages 151 to 173. You will also note that the applicant has submitted additional documents in support of their application, whereby they've offered additional measures to those that have made representation, and that's been included and circulated as well. That's the summary of the report. And as members of any further questions, thank you. College, do you have any questions to the applicant? I'm sorry, not to the applicant, to the officer. Before we get formally, I think we need to clear up one matter, and these are the importance, and I go directly to the applicants. What is the actual address? Could you use the mic? Thank you. Yeah, the address is 16, so Unit 268, Smith Road, London E3, 2GF. That is the correct address. And we understand, apparently, there's a database with the Council have a different address. So, apparently, I was speaking to the landlord. I think that address possibly is the address of the landlord, right, where he registered the building. I'm slightly more confused again. Can you turn that off, please? I remain confused. What is the actual address? If I were to go, if I were to go, if a delivery comes or something, or one wishes to put a letter through the door, or you put an advert, what is the actual address? Can I assist, Chair? This is an application, of course, for a variation of the existing license. I think what may assist you and your colleagues is, if you look at page 107, the copy of the premises license that the applicant seeks to vary has the premises down as Unit A268, Smead Road. I would respectfully suggest that, if any doubt lingers as to which premises or what the proper address is, I think, actually, that is what you take. Put another way, I don't think it's rational to deviate from that, because otherwise, what are you doing? You're then, basically, having a totally different premises address, if you were to grant the variation agreed, and that cannot possibly make sense. So, therefore, for today's purposes, my advice is treat it as given on the premises license as exists, Unit A268, Smead Road. Thank you very much. Chair, I think we can confirm A268. Please, only, if you come on time, you'd have heard me giving the House rules. You contribute when you're, you signal you wish to contribute, and then you're called, not in advance. Thank you. We have no comments from the, we have no questions to the licensing officer. The legal officer has, I think, more or less, queried this address off. I'm now going to invite the applicant to present their application, which will be for five minutes. And you have five minutes, starting from now. I'm semi-timed, sure. Thank you. Councilor, salute. So, yeah, just to, just to, for clarification, what are we treating this address as? I think we're at David Wong, with the addresses as the addresses on the application, which is Unit 268, Smead Road, E3, 2TF. Yep. All right. Thank you, Chair. I understand you've been waiting for six, seven minutes to see at that. It's just happened today with the traffic, but thank you. And, Chair, so we have put these applications, and why we are here today, and we had a tour of presentation. One is to support the application. The other one is to object to the applications. Chair, so in the objection, I would like to go straight to address this objection, Chair. So, when you look at this objection from Lindsay, she's one of the residents, and I've been speaking to her about her objections. So, Chair, I think, so her objections is to do with, so when I'm going through the paragraph here, and the last paragraph on the page 141 sees that current conditions are, we put, is adequate enough. I'll come to that, why we said that, but also, we dispute about what she said about the conditions 12 and 15, and I had a conversation with her about that as well, but all the conditions are in place to address that. And, Chair, I think one of the things she said on the paragraph that, as a local resident, she's impacted by the activities of the Wellcome Corp. So, the manager is here, Chair. I think when this premises was open three years ago, she actually came down and talked to them as well about a few issues, and they've been working together with her as a partnership. It wasn't like a complaint about where the trolleys are, that's disturbing her as they're passing through and things like that, the operation of it. And they've been working together, and they've been working together, and they've been working with her, that was sorted since then. There's no more complaints or anything like that from any residents to this store, Chair, over the two years now. And now, one of the, one of the things she mentioned, it is about the activities of this store. Chair, you know, when we look at the, what are the activities, that's what we wanted to look at. I think further on, she mentioned about, on the point number one, increase noise pollutions, and she said increase food traffic. So, the thing is, this particular premises is for the local residents, and they are the one coming to shop. And if they don't, if they can't shop in place, they have to walk down to so many other premises, it's open midnight, and beyond that as well, you can see from the premises. So, having a license for this place is actually, is going to help. In a way, the residents don't have to go too far, you know, and also they can just pop in quickly and get something and go up. And also, the other residents said something about, you know, whether this premises open until midnight or not, there will be traffic, like people coming around. What's happened is, when, the reason the store is opening late, because there are people coming back to, back from work. They finish work, probably some people finish at 10, 11, and they come late at night, and they want to buy something to eat. So, if this store is not open, they would rather order from somebody, so the delivery is going to come. So, that's one of the reasons, the person who is supporting also. So, now they can quickly pop down, or on the way home, they can go to the shop and buy something, or make something at home to eat, or they could buy some other fresh food to eat. So, this is the important thing, food traffic, right? And delivery vehicles, and something that I was talking to her, that delivery vehicles. So, we have a condescens, we have a condescens, on the, on the page 3 of the agenda 4.2, there's a condescens number 2. So, an additional condescens, no deliveries to the premises that take place between 9 and 6 in the morning, on the following day. And I was speaking to Lindsay, and then her concern about deliveries coming, if the store is opening 6 o'clock, deliveries coming before 6. So, now, now I want to say something about that delivery. And then she put other general activities in the vicinity, I mean, which is not very clear about what other activities to be. But it is clear, Chair, you know, what are the activities, mainly we are talking about deliveries, and customers coming in, and going out. And now, the thing we are looking, and people loitering as well, but it hasn't happened at all. Nobody loiter, the people live in that area, like very decent, and they are just a general working people. And they just buy something, they go home. Nobody hang around, there's no reason to hang around as well. And now, the thing, it never happens. So, now, coming back to these condescens, we put a condescens number 1, and additional condescens of 5, I am talking about, part of the additional documents. So, the condescens number 1 says the collection above the waste. So, the existing condescens, number 3, on the current license, also addresses the same thing. I think, but what we put here, let me just stick to that, to the condescens. So, condescens number 3, page 112, yeah, page 111, and then 112, that's where the things are starting. So, deliveries collected, okay, so, I think number 3, condescens number 3 can be amended to state the hours. So, what we wanted to do there, Chair, I think that's one of the reasons we put this additional condescens, so the 3 to be amended, with the hours indicated between 22 and 8. So, there won't be any waste collection, recycling, picking up, anything, you know, which could add to noise. And then, 2, we are adding extra, condescens number 2, and the 3, also, I think, we're gonna, there's a condescens number 12, which is a similar condescens, but we put that there for addressing to the residents, really. So, the condescens number 3 could be ignored, as the condescens number 12 is there, kind of addressing the same thing. And condescens number 4, we are adding extra, so, we will make sure any other, like, no noise shall emanate from the premises, no vibration cause any nuisance to people, and it hasn't happened, and it won't happen, but we put it as part of the condescens. And the condescens number 5, also, can be ignored, because condescens number 15, on the current licence, addresses that. So, Chair, what we are here today, is about really addressing the public nuisance... Do you have one minute remaining? One minute. One minute. Oh, thank you. So, what we are here today to really address the prevention of public nuisance objectives, mainly. And, you know, the police are not here, the environmental health officers are not here, there's no complaints, it's been needed, no authorities are here. So, I mean, we accepted some condescens with the police, and all the other authorities as well, to address the other licensing objectives. So, we are here for the residents' objective of prevention of public nuisance, and we have added some condescens to manage that. And the premises has been managed perfectly, you know, there are managers, assistant managers, and the owner as well. So, concerning all of this, Chair, I think we don't see any reasons, you know, that the concerns raised by the customer, that the objective, cannot be addressed through the conditions we provided. Thank you. Twong, you wanted something to say, which might be helpful for the person. I'll move on to the other chapter, yes. Yep. Before we move on to the object, Ms. Lindsay Starnow, I've been pronouncing your name correctly. Yes, I can see she's nodding, thank you. Just a preface to assist the council members and also the parties to this case. I'm referring specifically to pages 141 to 143 of the agenda pack. And the, whilst appreciating that Ms. Starnow has taken a great deal of trouble to set out her objections and her representations, I would advise the counsellors that, of course, they should remember that only those matters, and this applies equally to anything said by the applicant through his licensing representative today, only that you can only take on board those things which pertain directly to one or more of the following four licensing objectives. Now, going to pages 141, 142 and 143, the following numbered paragraphs are relevant to one or more of those licensing objectives. So, paragraph number one, paragraph number three, number four, five and six, number seven, and I regret to advise, I'm sorry if this upsets or disappoints the objector, but apply the strict remit of the legal proviso set out by the legal proviso set out by the, in relation to the licensing objectives. Licensing members have to discount paragraph numbers two, eight, nine, and ten. And just to clarify, it's exactly for the reasons which I've outlined a few seconds ago. Thank you. Ms. Dana, that means you've got five minutes, but if you could concentrate on the matters that are relevant to the licensing committee, it will help the time you have and help us. And, as I say, the floor is yours, and we look forward to hearing from you, and you'll have five minutes. Thank you very much. Can you hear me okay? Yep. Okay, perfect. I'll focus today on the consideration of prevention of public nuisance and crime and disorder. Maybe I'll just introduce myself very quickly. I am Ms. Tanno. I own a property right above the Wellcome Shop on the third floor, address 72 Smead Road. And I'm a director of Monier Road Hackney Wick Management Company, who's the resident association. No, no, please don't say all that, because this is public, and you're giving away private information. It's very well to say that you are a resident, and we move on. Okay, no problem. So, I want to specify that I am not against the license that has been granted in 2022 to the Wellcome at the time I didn't make any representation. What I am concerned about is the extension of the opening hours and the extension of the hours for the licensable activity, which is the sale of alcohol. I have had three conversations with the licensing agent present in the room. The conditions that we have discussed didn't give me comfort that my concerns were being addressed. The conditions they have submitted to the council afterwards are basically a recap of what was already in the license in 2022. I'm referring to the conditions 12 and 15. They've added some timing for delivery and waste collection, which makes matters worse than what they are at the moment. So, when I raised my representation, I based myself on guidelines that have been issued by the Association of Convenience Tours, which Wellcome is a member of, and they recommend that within the London residential areas, opening hours are between 7 and 8 a.m. to 9 and 10 p.m., which is aligned with what they had initially asked in 2022 when they opened the store, and that any variance to that should be considered based on customer demand, business needs, and community standards. So, that's really what I base myself on. When it comes to the area, this is a very quiet area of Fish Island, a very narrow street. Mead Road is a very narrow street. There are apartments above, and on either side of it, there is a mosque and a playground for children that's right after it. I think that the opening hours and licensing hours provided right now are fit for purpose. People can come and grab whatever they need before and after work, school, and uni. And it's aligned with what other shops in the area have as well in terms of their licensing hours and opening hours. I think the council has granted about six licenses for similar activities since 2021 when this area became residential. And I'm pleased to say that on those six, there has been common standards that have been established so that minimum nuisance would be applied to residents. That means that nobody, and this is a mix of shops and, you know, restaurants and premises that have a mix of activities. None of those venues, they are selling off-premises alcohol after 10.30 p.m. And none of them get deliveries before 7 or 8 a.m. So if this variation of license was granted to the co-op, this would not align with the great work that has been done by a resident and council in venues alike in the area to protect, you know, the good harmony of all of us. We also have experience of the nuisances that early deliveries cause with Gadasia Slaughterhouse. That's right across the co-op. And there are live complaints with your noise pollution team about those. Unfortunately, there are no license conditions there because they've been established for many years. So I would really hope that we can come to times that make sure that we do not replicate the nuisances that we're currently having with Gadasia. And finally, I'd just like to point out, I've also looked at the welcome venues that are available online publicly. I have found 14 stores across the UK, including seven in London. Of those in London, only one opens their store at 6 a.m. And they're based on the main commercial road on their way to the station, which is very not what we are. And only one of them opens after 11, which is the same store. I really question the need for this particular store to be open and sell alcohol from 6 a.m. and midnight Monday to Sunday, while the rest of their estate in London is majorly 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. So, based on all those, I just think that the request from the applicant is not in line with, one, what has been done in the area since it became very residential and, two, with the rest of the estate. So I'd welcome us looking at alternatives to that proposal. Thank you. Thank you very much. That was mostly similar. Mr. Wong. Yes. I would request to a bit of further advice for the members in relation to one or two matters raised by Ms. Starno. And she has referred you to, I think I'm right in saying it was 14 other well-come co-op stores and what's happened in relation to their opening hours and so and so forth and other license permits in the area. Um, I would advise members that, um, in considering what you need to need to consider this afternoon. You can only consider this application on its own merits and the circumstance of these premises in relation to its own circumstances, nothing else. Thank you, Mr. Wong. Thank you, Mr. Wong. I, I should mention to Ms. Stoner, when we began, I mentioned that this is broadcast line, so when I, live, so when I drew your attention suddenly, you were, you revealed, or you were about to reveal your home address and for your own security. We, we, we, we're very, very protective of people, which is why I drew a lot. Understood. And, um, as much as you may wish to do so, we didn't want to be responsible for your home address being potentially broadcast across the nation. Understood. Sorry, apologies. I apologize. We have to apologize. We're trying to help you and as long as you, you understood that we're being helpful to you. Yes. Yes, I do. Um, we now move to questions to, um, both the applicant and the objector and my first one is to the applicant. If you go to page 148, 149, you will see that the police, um, the police, um, request to say that they were holding, but they requested a number of additions. May I, um, would you accept those conditions? You would accept those conditions. So, in the event, in the event, were we mindful to grant, we would add those to the list of conditions. If we turn to 111 and 114, which are the conditions, the long list of conditions, we, were we, again, were we mindful to grant, it is, there's a bit of generality here. It says, if we go to, go to 113, number 13, all deliveries and waste collections to the premises will take place at a time as not to cause a disturbance to the nearby residents. Would you be, would you, would you consider offering a timeframe for that, which would, which is what we have on many other similar applications? There's actually a time scale on that, um, which I think would be helpful. Okay, I'll go. Yeah. Uh, we can say eight o'clock in the evening to six o'clock in the morning. No. Eight o'clock in the morning to six o'clock in the evening. No, no. The waste collection. I can't believe that. Wait, wait, wait. So, collection to the waste at a time as to not cause a disturbance. So, what we are saying, that no collections of, uh, waste and recycling material taking place, even in the boroughs, between, uh, 8 p.m. in the evening, in the morning, you don't do the waste collections. Yeah. Right? Six, like, 8, uh, 8 p.m. to 6 a.m. in the morning. Is that collections, is that collections or deliveries? That's a collection, going out the waste and things like that. Well, that, that's helpful. What about delivery? 8 p.m. to 6 a.m. in the morning. Yeah. Delivery is coming in. So, we are saying 8 p.m. to 7 a.m. in the morning. Chair, through you, can I just clarify one thing. So, Mr Suresh, you sent in the supporting documents, um, yesterday. So, on here, we've got condition one, that you put forward to Ms Lindsay Stanton. No, no collections of waste or recycling materials, including bottles from the premises, shall take place between 10 p.m. So, it's 2200 hours to 8 a.m. the following day. Yeah. So, are you changing that? Yeah, we are changing that to 8 a.m. now. So, between 8 p.m. to 6 a.m. Yeah. Okay. That's up. We've lost two hours off that. What about on the, um, delivery? Deliveries. Deliveries. Deliveries. Deliveries. Deliveries. Deliveries. Deliveries. Deliveries. Deliveries. So, that we are saying, we said 9, we're going to say 8 p.m. So, 2200. To morning 7 a.m. Because I think, um, we want to make sure, you know, it doesn't... It's quite clear that there will not be either delivering or collection during what most of us will call the night time period. Yeah. Thank you. Wow. Certainly. Um, where were we talking about that? Thank you, Chair. Um, just want to make clear on the thing, um, Mr. Rudy's, um, on the same page, page 113, where it says, um, what should be kept securely and, uh, in the designated area and the moment of the beans and rubbish shall be kept in minimum at all times to reduce the level of noise and produce, uh, a lot of noise produced by the premises. When you say minimum, what do you mean by minimum? How are we going to cope with your rubbish if you, if you've got something minimum? And what is the maximum? And how are we going to cope with the rest? Uh, that condescends, um, the real advisor can say, because I think now we are giving a timeframe to it, so the minimum can be taken away. So, before, it's just generally said it's minimum. Now we are putting a timeframe. We could say waste, um, hold on, waste will be kept securely at the moment of beans, rubbish will be kept in minimum at all time. Well, okay, what do you mean? Sorry, I think I was trying to understand this. Okay. So, that is in addition to the time we have given. But now that we have time given, so there's nothing is going to happen between those time periods. So, that condescends is, um, uh, I love this. Deliberate for a collection. I love that. Yeah. So, this is, um, we are talking about. The management fully understand that it's there due to prevent causing any nuisance. Right? Okay, that's fine. And movement of beans and rubbish will be kept to minimum at all time, reduce the level. So, all your rubbish, okay. So, all the rubbish are kept in a designated area. So, what we save at minimum, I think I'll come back to that. So, the minimum mean, you know, they don't, they make sure, you know, when they're moving around, they don't do it in a hard ways to make. Okay. Just one more question. Yeah. Just, uh, in terms of collection, who does collect steel waste? Is it a private, uh, collector or somebody that you could, you could appoint a time? Or someone who collects, uh, at their own time? Yeah. The collection done by the co-op management. They have a waste and recycling collections. Yeah. So, just to say, uh, whenever they come to deliver, they do the collection at the same time, waste collections. Um, further question from me. There is reference to the provision of late-night refreshment. What does that mean? So, they have, like, a copy machine, and a tea, and they have a light Cinex. Like, . Thank you. I think, any more questions, colleagues? I think we've exhausted questions. Am I okay now? Um, oh, I'm going to ask Mr. Wong, but, um, the objective, you had your hand up. Do you have a query? Uh, I do. I have a clarification question, if I may. Go ahead. Yeah. Thank you. Um, so, my understanding is, um, as it was mentioned, that collection of waste is done during deliveries. So, how will that work if delivery times is different from waste collection? I'm not quite sure how that works. And also, um, the applicant mentioned that the waste is kept in a designated area. Uh, I'd be curious to know where that area is, because currently, they're keeping waste outside in metallic trolleys, waiting a few hours for collections to take place. And that also creates noise. And this is also a breach of the leasehold. So, I just would like to understand what is that designated area they're discussing about. Yeah, I get. I get. There are two quite interesting points there, perhaps. I, I mean, I'd make one observation to you, um, rubbish collection and waste collection is quite different from delivery. So, I mean, we're talking of delivery will be people delivering goods for sale. So, I mean, they're quite different. We've put separate conditions on them. They're done as two quite different disciplines. Um, it's interesting, um, that you've mentioned that the delivery, that the rubbish is kept outside, as opposed in the designated area. I, I'd like to put that to the outcome. Thank you, Chair. I think the waste are managed inside the store. They have a space for that. Could you repeat that again? I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. The waste are managed inside the store. There's no space outside. So, they have a space inside. Mr Wong. Um, only to clarify that, um, that actually isn't strictly scope for any parties to be adding onto the representations, um, uh, made. Whilst I'm on, though, um, and just to assist the members, can I, on their behalf, ask a couple of questions? One is of, to, the first one is to Ms Starno. Uh, Ms Starno, um, you, your representations, uh, refer to noise disturbance and other disruptions to residents, which you complain about in relation to the premises. Um, have you raised those with the premises management? And, if so, what was the outcome? So, I have raised new reasons, for instance, when it comes to their ventilation system. Uh, so I see Suki, the manager, is there, so he can attest to that. We've had a few conversations. Uh, my flat, um, is impacted by that pretty heavily. Um, Suki has tried to support, but he has said that nothing can be done about this ventilation. So, the issue is that because the doors are kept open and all the fridges are, you know, on full blast, especially in the summer, that ventilation overworks. And then it takes a very long time to cool down. So, if the shop closes at 10, it stops, uh, running very noisily around midnight one. So, if the shop now closes at midnight, it's going to be nuisance from that ventilation until at least two in the morning, every day, Monday to Sunday. Um, I've also complained to him about the trolleys that they can keep outside. So, waste may be managed inside, but at least their recycling, for sure, is kept outside in all of those metallic trolleys. And, uh, the collection of waste is done at the same time as the delivery of food comes. You know, they do a swap. So, I have complained about that. They've also received letters about that, um, saying that this should not be the case. And I understand that the council has also asked them not to keep those trolleys with waste overnight because it's a health and safety concern. So, right now, they don't do it at night anymore. That's great. But they do keep those outside. So, this also creates noise as they move those metallic trolleys, um, in and out. And there's also been, um, public nuisance with, you know, uh, people fighting outside of the trolleys. It's not happened very often. As I say in my representation, these antisocial behaviors have been kept to a minimum because the opening hours, you know, they, they are right. But if this stays later, and the other venues around do not sell alcohol, for instance, and this is the only place around that, that will do, then there is a very high chance that those antisocial behavior escalate, um, beyond what they are today. Thanks very much. Um, the other question, which I sought to ask, to assist the councillors, is the licensing officer. Um, are there any records of any of Mistano's complaints? Does the council have any? Um, I've already looked. There's no, um, complaint to the licensing. I'm not sure about other departments, but there's none in the licensing section. We now move to the concluding, concluding, um, comments. And I invite both the applicant and the objector to sum up. Um, we usually, we usually, we give you a minute for that. And we reverse the order. So the applicant will be first. Yeah. Um, thank you, chair. And, um, so we have actually satisfactorily addressed the concerns raised by the, um, objector, and much more than that through air conditions on the license. Um, and the manager here has been working with the residents. And, um, so the thing is, um, with the trolley and all being managed, and since he has addressed that, um, and then this happened two years ago. And the last two years, there were no complaints from the residents here. And the other things I wanted to say, as he mentioned about these ventilations, that actually has been secured without making any noise. And as soon as they close the shop, some of these machines are off and they don't take two hours to cool down, you know. Um, and it's just cool down very quickly. Um, and yeah, that's what we wanted to say. Thank you, chair. Thank you very much. Could I now invite the objector to sum up, please? I'm sorry to ask before I do. Can you please clarify what I should sum up? My, my position? Is that it? It's completely up to you. What you'd like, like, you would like us to know before we, we do. Okay. Oh, okay. I understand. Thank you. Uh, well, uh, with due respect, um, licensing agent, I, I do live above the shop. Suki and I have talked many times. Uh, they do know that very recently they still received those letters about their waste collection. So that can be very easily verified. Uh, the issue with the ventilation is not made up either. Uh, they are also exchanged about that. And, uh, my conclusion here is I am not against this shop being in activity. I think it's useful for the community. I'm just concerned about the extension of their licensing hours and opening hours, uh, essentially. So I would love those to be reviewed a bit, uh, earlier, uh, with even a caveat for Friday to Saturday, but opening every day from 6 a.m. to midnight is very late. And then when it comes to delivery and, um, waste collection, I'd really appreciate, uh, 9 a.m. or what did you say? 8 p.m. to 8 a.m. window without waste and collection with the exception for your bread delivery, uh, at 7 a.m. which happens currently. It is noisy, but we could live with that. If you were sending the big massive co-op truck with the, you know, the platform that you lift up and down and all those trolleys at 7 a.m., that is very disturbing for all of us, because the street is very narrow and the noise travels. So, that is it. Thank you very much. It's good to hear from you. Um, the subcommittee will now deliberate in a private session. The result of our deliberations will be sent to both of you, and which, and it will be in by form of a letter from Ms. Yasmin, which you will receive within five working days. You can, of course, um, object to it, should you, or seek, or seek an objection from it. Um, I should point out that when we adjourn, we will be assisted by Mr Wong, who is here for legal advice. Ms. Yasmin will take a note of our deliberations. So, in the event of any further action, that there is a note of how we deliberate, and you will be told in the letter whether the meeting, whether the decision was unanimous or by majority, as a matter of course for you. Thank you very much. So, we now conclude that part of the meeting, and I formally ask number five, Ms. Yasmin, do we have any extensions? Uh, yes, Chair. Um, can I please ask members, um, Chair, to agree the following applications to be extended to February, um, 2025. Um, first application, a Portuguese love affair basement, 324 Hackney Road, London E278X. Agreed. Um, Hargan Express Bar, Unit 230 South, um, London E145EZ. Agreed. Um, highway service station, 102 to 106, the highway, London E1W. Agreed. And lastly, the Dorset Canary Wharf, 48 March Wharf, London E149TP. Agreed. Okay, thank you, Chair. I'm not sure she said agreed each time, and I think we're agreeing on applications. Um, I formally close the meeting now. Thank you.
Summary
The meeting considered two licensing applications, the first of which was withdrawn by the applicant. The second application was for the variation of a licence for the Wellcome Co-op at Unit 2, 68 Smeed Road in Bow East. The sub-committee decided to grant the application. The sub-committee also agreed to the extension of four other licences.
Application for a Variation of the Premises Licence for Wellcome Co-op Unit 2 68 Smeed Road London E3 2TF
The application by Wellcome Co-op at Unit 2, 68 Smeed Road in Bow East, to vary its existing licence was granted.
The applicant was represented by Mr Suresh Kanapathy. There was also an objection from Ms Lindsay Stano.
The applicant sought to extend its hours so that it could sell alcohol from 06:00 to 00:00, provide late night refreshment until 00:00 and open from 06:00 to 00:00.
Initially there was confusion over the address of the premises, with Mr Moshin Ali, Licensing Officer for Tower Hamlets, stating that it was unclear if the premises were at Unit 2, 68 Smead Road, or at 79-85 Monier Road. Mr David Wong, Legal Officer for the Council, clarified the matter by stating that the address should be taken to be the one given in the premises licence.
Objections
Ms Stano objected to the variation on the grounds that it would increase noise pollution from deliveries, waste collections and customers coming and going from the shop. Ms Stano also stated that:
The ventilation of the commercial unit – which sits right under our bedrooms – is very noisy, especially whilst the shop is open. It also requires 2h to cool off after closing time.
Mr Kanapathy countered the objection by stating that no deliveries or collections would be made between 22:00 and 07:00. He also stated that the ventilation noise would not be an issue as:
as soon as they close the shop, some of these machines are off and they don't take two hours to cool down, you know, um, and it's just cool down very quickly.
Mr Wong further stated that, when making its decision, the sub-committee should only consider the application on its own merits and not take into account Ms Stano's references to the operating hours of other branches of Wellcome or to other licences that had been granted in the area.
Conditions
Councillor Peter Golds, Chair of the Licensing Sub-committee, asked if Mr Kanapathy would accept the conditions that had been requested by the Metropolitan Police. Mr Kanapathy agreed to accept these conditions.
Councillor Golds also asked if Mr Kanapathy would be willing to add a timeframe to condition 13, which states that All deliveries and waste collections to the premises will take place at a time as to not cause a disturbance to the nearby residents
. Mr Kanapathy agreed and stated that no deliveries or collections would be made between 22:00 and 07:00.
Councillor Golds then asked who would be responsible for the waste collections and Mr Kanapathy replied that they would be collected by Wellcome's own waste and recycling service.
Councillor Golds queried what was meant by the phrase late-night refreshment
. Mr Kanapathy stated that this referred to the shop's coffee machine, tea and microwave.
Ms Stano then asked for clarification about the arrangements for waste collection and stated that whilst waste was kept inside the shop, recycling was kept in metal cages outside. Mr Kanapathy replied that all waste was kept inside the store.
Mr Wong clarified that this clarification should be disregarded as it added to Ms Stano's original representation.
Mr Wong then asked Ms Stano if she had made any complaints to the management of the premises. Ms Stano confirmed that she had complained about the ventilation system, stating that it continued to run after the shop had closed. She also stated that she had complained about the metal cages that were used to keep waste outside, stating that they were both noisy and a breach of the leasehold agreement for the building.
Mr Wong then asked Mr Ali if the council had a record of Ms Stano's complaints. Mr Ali stated that there were no records of complaints held by the Licensing Team, although he could not speak for other departments.
Summation
Mr Kanapathy stated that he felt that the applicant had addressed Ms Stano's concerns satisfactorily
. He reiterated his earlier point that the shop manager had been working with residents and that there had been no complaints in the two years since Ms Stano had first complained about the noise from the cages.
Ms Stano stated that Mr Kanapathy was incorrect about the lack of further complaints about waste collection, and that the shop had recently received a letter about it. She also stated that Mr Kanapathy was incorrect about the ventilation noise, and that she and the shop manager had discussed it. She concluded by stating that she did not oppose the shop opening, but that she felt that the opening hours being sought were too late. She stated that she would prefer the shop to be open from 07:00 to 23:00 and that there should be no waste collections or deliveries other than bread deliveries between 20:00 and 08:00.
Extension of Decision Deadline: Licensing Act 2003
The sub-committee agreed to extend the deadlines for decisions on four licence applications until February 2025. The applications were for:
- Portuguese Love Affair, 324 Hackney Road
- Hargan Express Bar, Unit 230, South Quay
- Highway Service Station, 102-106 The Highway
- The Dorset, 48 Marsh Wall
Attendees
- Ana Miah
- Peter Golds
- Suluk Ahmed
- Simmi Yesmin
Documents
- Fw_ Variation Premises Licence - Welcome Co-op Unit A2 68 Smeed Road London MA 172110_Redacted
- Supplemental Agenda 12th-Dec-2024 14.30 Licensing Sub Committee other
- Decisions 12th-Dec-2024 14.30 Licensing Sub Committee
- Agenda frontsheet 12th-Dec-2024 14.30 Licensing Sub Committee agenda
- Public reports pack 12th-Dec-2024 14.30 Licensing Sub Committee reports pack
- Declarations of Interest Note other
- Premises License Procedure 2017-18
- Guidance for Licensing Sub
- Draft Minutes - Lic Sub Committee - 08 Oct 24 other
- Float cover report - 12 Dec 24
- Float Appendices Only - 12 Dec 24
- Welcome Co Op cover report - 12 Dec 24
- Welcome Co Op Appendices Only - 12 Dec 24