Transcript

Transcript

удson, Director ofural Jesus Covares. David Flores. David Flores. David Flores,んだrust,ということ, David Flores, uch, David Flores, David Flores. David Flores, David Flores, David Flores, David Flores, David Flores, there's no absence of members the members have any declaration to make in relation to the agenda items account some more um thank you chair um i just need to make a a minor declaration with regard to the item um 9a um the the report from the adults and health scrutiny committee it makes reference uh to referring um making recommend um nhs trust of which i am barnett's appointed governor on the council of governors thank you um are there any questions okay then if you come up and the 15 minutes will start when you ask your first question in whichever order you want to do it thank you thank you very much leader and good evening to everyone um with the the the imminent departure of our very uh charismatic and talented director of children's services and the very talented and excellent director of um children's social care in the next few days could you give me enough rough idea of how you tend to approach the well enormous cutbacks that you've got lined up for children's services without that expert knowledge available to help and implement those changes thank you thank you um i don't think i agree with you that the people that are leaving or those that have left and those that are leaving authority as you know you've worked with the same people the same way i have but there won't be a gap what normally happens in these situations is you always have interims in place and as soon as possible we will be advertising for permanent posts so it's not as if nothing has been done and everything is going into the void what is happening is that we've actually taken proactive steps because of course as you know by law you have to have a dcs in place it's not something you can leave vacant so it's not something that we've let drift it's not something we've forgotten it's something we've worked on and we've already taken the steps to make sure that people are pertinent with tina having left as well so yeah hopefully we will continue the good work but they will be a hard act to follow i agree with you on that one could i just follow up on that because i you know fully respect what you said in terms of business as usual in that i completely agree that it land of the complexity of the one that you've laid out in the papers and as well as picking up all of the day-to-day responsibilities to expect them to lead that cost reduction exercise which we all know is going to be extremely challenging to put in place and therefore the question i would ask is an answer question is what additional risk has the finance team applied to those children's services savings as a result of the senior management changes what sort of contingency you're putting in place because it's absolutely normative that when you have interim leaders you can expect them to deliver business as usual but it's absolutely unreasonable to expect them to deliver a cost reduction program they haven't designed state and post is far less right across the board and at the same time there is a history across different boroughs where you do have interims in place and we've made sure that the people that we have said someone is just coming into this blind they will know exactly positions where we're at where we need to continue and where we will keep the good standing relationships between both members and officers and the interim to make sure that there's good working relationships between all people i can answer some of that uh council zinkin the characterization by council longstaff of the brilliance of our of our previous director of children's services extends to him making our organization fit for the future ensuring that vulnerable children are safeguarded after his departure it wouldn't be quite as brilliant if he didn't think about what the world would look like once he's once he's departed i know that he has a huge amount of respect and love for the organization the people he's worked with the children that he's there in that time and those that the organization will take care of in the future so we have availed ourselves of every millisecond of his experience over the last few months during it and that will continue right down to his very last day i'm sure he's very glad to hear hear that from me um expressed in precisely those terms but we we are not indifferent to the challenge neither is he and as a consequence we are making sure that he you know he works with us to uh the businesses services i'm asking i'm asking a different question which is that there needs to be in my view recognition in the budget you ask a question in the budget paper or you make the point in the budget papers over the last few years 80 of savings have been achieved and as we go down the savings pile it gets harder and harder and harder to part of the saving and therefore there are two questions that arise the first is whether you should be counting 100 of the savings or 80 of the savings or whatever the number is in the analysis of where the expected numbers are due to come out and secondly whether that number if you conclude that you do need to make an adjustment needs to reflect the fact that it is inevitable that with the degree of senior change at the top children's it's going to be um this is a charity it's one i support um every year um and i think it's really good and so i wasn't quite sure charge to living unlimited and it wasn't clear to me exactly what that meant in terms of the fundraising um and whether we were asking people to give money to charity so that he could go to the council to pay for operational costs because i found that uncomfortable if i don't see i understand it but i will double check and get back but my concern is that because that cost comes from charitable raisings i think it's right about that to those who are being asked to give um this is obviously the decision making um on the budget as such now because it seemed foolish to duplicate but i just wondered whether in terms of the briefing which you kindly offered to waterly bridging the deficit in terms of producing a balanced budget gear um and therefore that you would have to consider um alternative measures to what we're actually going to do about that i've previously said counselor that every single option available to us is on the table we're leaving no stone unturned to ensure that we arrive at a legally mandated balanced budget position in february and um increasing the number of options available to reach that position to us is a prudent thing to do if a question as to whether or not capitalization direction has been requested of government at this stage now but it remains an option on the table and it will only be appealed to once we've exhausted all of the other avenues we've got at our disposal to bridge the gap in addition to considering all of the other forms of capital income developing it really really important just comment on that and one thing and i'm sure you're glad about it as well council's thinking is at last we have a government that does listen to them and take it seriously let's see um if we could move for the final question to frank cross um recommendation four in the recommendations is deeply obscure um that recommendation which asked cabinet to confirm that's a list of decisions over the last nine years um in appendix one are the key decisions which have been taken in relation to the various key agreements in relation to brent cross it was completely that those are the key decisions that have been taken given the thousands of reports over the last nine years and i'm sorry the hundreds of i think that we could have perhaps so when we come to seal brent cross documents got such a long chain of authority that um there was a feeling that and we got we've got our empty so that cabinet could approve it and it's in an appendix and it just it's just there so that when we seal documents we're just referring back to this committee and that chain of authority rather than every time we come to seal a document a massive chain of authority to check so it's to simplify things so i'm sorry if it's if it wasn't crystal clear but that's i wondered if it was that but but i would suggest that in order to make this really work that you minute explicitly that the external lawyers reviewed the entire chain and produce that list because otherwise i honestly don't know how without that assurance cabinet could possibly approve recommendation for the questions and comments and there's been no matter to refer to the executive we then move on to adventure item nine which is consideration report from uh for initial consideration and this is the discharge to assess task and finish group was traired by councillor phil cohen uh the opportunity to present the report when you're ready for thank you chair uh firstly can you hear me okay good okay um we consider this uh to be a very important issue and while um uh uh we don't think there's a magic bullet as a solution we do think there are important lessons for both the council and for the nhs um you'll see from my introduction that barnett has a very high number of people discharged from acute hospital uh it's the highest in the uh five ncl boroughs the increase is the highest in recent years and one of the highest in london uh so uh we looked at the implications of this for transition from people going from hospital to home uh demands on social care and the the discharge to assess model which calls for uh a multi-disciplinary and integrated approach to discharging someone at the best possible time with support uh we spoke to council and nhs staff as well as voluntary sector partners so i just wanted to pick out um three points from uh the report and the recommendation firstly for carers and this chine very much with what barnet carers were telling us we wanted to see better training um prior to discharge for both hospital staff and for care informal carers on things like medication and manual handling there was some evidence that people were unprepared for discharge uh from hospital and weren't given proper advice uh or signposted to further information and support which was worrying so that leads to recommendation one which is uh calling on barnett and the icb to review the provision of support information for informal carers and their families to ensure they feel better supported throughout the discharge process and also this should include people who spend time in a and e before returning home because we know that going to any any can be a difficult and sometimes traumatic um experience as i as i found recently and some members did as well uh so that's the first recommendation secondly um we looked at transport from hospital and we found there was evidence that transport was not always provided particularly in the evening uh and the patients weren't always asked if they had transport or whether they needed it and we know of course that nhs transport like ambulances can be in short supply to take people so we feel that um the staff should um patients should be asked if they need transport uh and how that could be got there was some evidence that people were left in what's called a discharge lounge of a hospital where they're no longer cared for but they're actually waiting to go home and waiting in that lounge for some time so we and that was an issue the transport issue came up several times in evidence um so that leads to the second recommendation which is for the trusts to report their plans to improve transport from hospital uh to do include what is being done to reduce lengthy weights in the discharge lounge and uh promoting patients and their families to manage their own transport or uh what other transport they needed so that the delay is kept to a minimum and thirdly we looked at um sharing of information uh between social care staff and nhs staff uh and things like patients case histories um uh there was some evidence that before the pandemic social workers and staff like nurses used to share accommodation share offices and work together that stopped during the pandemic um and we feel that it should be resumed uh so that leads to recommendation three which is uh sorry to um four and five which is to improve uh provision of on-site office space for social work and health teams to enable more joined up working between practitioners particularly at barnard hospital and elsewhere and to improve sharing of case updates uh between between the health and social care and social care to reduce silo working speed up the discharge process spend reduce the amount of time spent on administration so there were three things uh uh uh i picked out it was also recommendation six that looks at you know the the whether the funding whether we get value for money and fairness in the what the system in what we spend given that we know that the funding for barnard doesn't always reflect the challenges we face we face in terms of an increasing population as a whole and an aging population we know that uh the the highest population increase in barnard is among people age 65 and over and over and that obviously has spin-off for people older people being in hospital and coming out with short-term care needs that need support um it should be said that most people return home without um needing that much support from social care um and that and uh we have a good record of um enabling people to live independently but where there is a need the system is clearly under pressure uh and that leads to the funding problem um it's good that the icb is working on a program to support carers to assist with discharge and that's welcome i should also say that the voluntary sector provides very important support we've got evidence from age uk from red cross etc providing support um for when people are discharged including before and after being sent away so we we work closely with them but we cannot expect them to fill all the gaps uh we aim to have a follow-up discussion on at scrutiny committee on health adults on health scrutiny in say six months to look at the responses to this report and we're looking for actions uh from icb and the trusts and from barnard including the cabinet so thank you for your consideration uh uh and i hope uh you get a chance to read it and study the implications thank you chair yeah no uh thank you councillor cohen uh for a timely report with a lot of good information in it i'll open up now if there's any comments or questions of councillor morfer and then councillor edwards uh thank you chair and and and and thank you councillor cohen um for your i i thank you and and your task and finish finish group members um for what was a very thorough and thoughtful piece of work i absolutely agree that it's an important issue um i it's a real example of the important role of scrutiny getting really getting in under the skin of an issue asking the searching questions and drawing on a wide range of evidence and data and then making practical recommendations for improvements so um i've read the report in detail i think you make some really um helpful and interesting points i think there are lessons to be learned potentially for a range of organizations but of course officers will now go away and prepare a report that will then come back to cabinet but i look forward to to getting that report so that we can then come and uh and and um dialogue with you at uh scrutiny um and also um in our various roles both in the icb and and on the uh on the trust board so thank you very much for your for your report and a really interesting piece of work yes i'd like to echo uh councillor morse gratitude for the work that's been done here but i have a specific question and i apologize because it's based on my personal experience so in recommendation two you um make reference to uh transport from hospital um and obviously nobody wants to be in hospital if they no longer need to be there that's certainly what the health service doesn't need people there but um the experience i had where i was asked if i had anybody at home who could um collect me unfortunately i did but that person doesn't drive so um so we had to arrange our own transport and we didn't have a problem with that that's not my issue really the issue is that for for the you know the size of the population the elderly population in this borough um i you know is there some experience that people do find difficulties in once they no longer have a clinical reason for the individual patients i don't know if you understand my question but uh thank you uh councillor but thank you councillor moore for your response in terms of transport this was something that came up uh health watch uh which is obviously both the barnet but also nationally did talk about people being left in the discharge lounge for some time and people having problems uh obviously people can find their own transport they or they might have to get taxis which is a cost um so uh but it did come up with the voluntary sector that uh this was an issue uh and uh with the lack of nhs transport for ambulances because they are obviously committed elsewhere um it was felt that where people didn't have their own transport that this was something the trust could look at and possibly the staff could just be aware that you know once they have treated somebody that isn't quite the end they'd need to get home and maybe it's the it would require just a question do you have transport uh do you need any help and um will there be a wait to reduce the delays because if you've been a long time in hospital if you haven't been admitted or in a and e you know the last thing you need is to be waiting several hours to get home so it is an issue would come up i don't have a a magic bullet answer but i just think it's something that we would like the trusts and the icb to look at thank you councillor cohen i mean as you are aware i i i was hospital a couple of years ago and i have to say many of the aspects of this report kind of resonate with me uh the discharge process is very confusing i often it isn't the day you're told the discharge is going to happen at a particular time and sometimes it will be the following day so i i think that sort of very useful series of recommendations and i think obviously one of the conversations it really is important to have is how are you getting home and i think nice i really welcome this report a really useful piece of work because it can be a very uh very confusing and uh disarranging process particularly if you're very unwell and you're still you know not feeling you quite often you're in a state where you're you are actually a not 100 and feeling disoriented because of your condition exactly having the confusion around discharge adds to that and what people want to do is do a delay so i'm really welcome thank you thank you councillor houston if there's no further question we can move on to uh recommendations which includes a report coming back uh to this committee great uh the recommendations are the cabinet is asked to note the referral from the adult and health overview and scrutiny subcommittee and the recommendation vendor item 10 which is keeping young people safe strategy this is about tackling child exploitation uh do you want to take i mean there's two of you so i don't know if you both want to comment on it on it yeah this is the strategy for 25 to 28 and if you get the chat to young people and what we can do to actually make sure that once things are flagged up that we actually manage to step in and make a difference in their lives um in the cabinet so i would like it recorded at cabinet our appreciation to chris for the years of services given to the authority which is very much appreciated i'm just trying to embarrass you i'll hand it over to sarah now i might want to add some more um thank you yes i'd echo that and i thank tina actually at the safer communities partnership board last week as well um i wanted to thank both chris's uh and the team for their work on this i think from a participation perspective the very fact that it's got a different title to child exploitation says everything about the work that's been done and the way that you've been working with children and young people on this um i also wanted to my computer's just turned itself off of course in the middle um i also wanted to welcome the focus on cohesive and collaborative leadership um i think that that has has really um been very evident in the past year in particular uh with all stakeholders including the police as part of clear hole build and operation woodson um also the working between the community safety team and your team chris's for the violence reduction unit that the two bits this year etc has been really welcome i think there's something very special about the way barnet works actually the two teams and the way in which that focuses on keeping young people safer and lastly i just wanted to note um i was at a police or a session this this morning on serious organized crime uh i'm doing the presentation with the police and home office um and it was noted at that that the the the new government's proposal to bring in um a new offense of criminal exploitation of children so after gangs will really help clare there's an officer called chris who wants to comment on this uh chris and i have had a discussion he's mr kelly and i'm mr monday uh so just uh so i will bring mr kelly in in a little while um but firstly thank you very much for the kind words it's always interesting when your name is mentioned as part of the um opposition questions it's uh uh and and uh just to confirm for the record i've been involved in both the appointments of interims for tina's role and uh giving some advice on the interim for my role um uh i think the key thing for me over my many years is in children's social care um uh approach to vulnerable adolescents has completely transformed the language that we used to use about child prostitutes about um gangs about exploitation has completely changed because we now understand uh that children and young people are exploited and are not choosing to uh behave in the ways that they are behaving and so i really welcome the work that chris and colleagues mr kelly and colleagues have done in relation to developing this document uh and fully endorse the approach and uh you know that one of the things that i've worked on very hard in barnet is to make sure that we do co-produce and work with children and young people uh in developing strategies that are about them it's not about us telling them what to do but us working with them to find out what are the best ways that we can deliver good outcomes um and the fact that the project that the strategy is about keeping young people safe is really important one of my huge frustrations as a director of children's services is when children are being exploited and are being um groomed or various other behaviors it's the children and their families that are being asked to leave the authority and not the perpetrators and what i hope through this strategy is that we will tackle the perpetrators of exploitation and abuse not make the children victims yet again so i welcome the work that they've done and i'll hand over to mr kelly who'll give a a few words on on the work i think it would be good chris particularly to talk about the work with children young people in developing the strategy um thank you so much mr mundy um and thank you leader uh so just really what i would just emphasize is that the strategy that the whole kind of pulling together and the core and foundation of the strategy was very much a co-produced piece of work with young people um that involved a variety of focus groups um and also with young people really bravely sharing a lot of their experiences um some of which have of course have been through um some of the trauma of exploitation um that was also very much the case in regards to the parents um and one of the things which um is often kind of lost in terms of focus and sight is also the impact of harm on uh the family unit um and also within the context of the community um and and of course of young people themselves so one of the things that we really wanted to do in relation to this was to um look at uh really driving um a sense of curiosity within the partnership and within professionals that are working with um young people and also their families and also with adults as well um in asking questions building relationships demonstrating a sense of tenacity as well um and also kind of more importantly actually building plans with young people that are experiencing exploitation rather than just um responding to um a sense of risk um from a from a from a restrictive or protective perspective really the major thing that came through in regards to kind of consultation work and engagement was also around about the impact on our communities um and one of the things which we um really wanted to emphasize and to ensure that we had as a priority area was about actually how we are continuing to have an outward focus um as a partnership in supporting our communities our local businesses our residents as well um and also how we are driving that awareness um and also the um ability to respond in relation to support in regards to victim services as well um so there has been an immense a tremendous amount of um work that has occurred over the last year around really kind of strengthening our presence within within within our communities in which we serve um so that's been through a range of um kind of restorative approaches but also in regards to kind of outreach work as well um so i i will hold there leader for for any questions um and just to just emphasize that uh this has been a a piece of work that has um really been as i say um the result of uh the real kind of brave stories and things that young people and families have also shared as well uh thank you thank you i must start by adding my thanks to mr monday uh for his work of helping to create a mold a very good service someone proud of proud of it on this particular report you started my first question which is that uh the voice of the young person comes out much more than in a lot of reports i've seen and that that is very impressive the thing about the families and communities is interesting and important because often when there is exploitation there's a lot of feeling of guilt and the inability to protect your own child can have grave grave effects and not and never forget siblings are always affected one point i wanted to make uh for cabinet is in one sense it talks about a low number saying less than one percent but if you work out one percentage 900 children so we are probably talking about let's say one question i had that uh is the how we deal with it when a young person may be a perpetrator but he's obviously also a victim and that that does create different sort of tensions and very difficult to deal deal with on a whole lot of things um that's a good thing is that if you want to do the perpetrator a way to to acting more mainstream you can do it at a younger term somebody around in their 50s who've been perpetrating for 30 years to be honest but i just wondered how how we cope with that which must be a very difficult situation if i say something first and then i'll ask mr kelly to come in i think what our approach is and this is our approach across all of our youth justice work is that it's it's child first offense second um and and that is absolutely critical um as a as a as a model because a perpetrator is only a perpetrator because of some of the experiences that they may may well have uh experienced so those adverse childhood events may have led to um them becoming involved in some type of uh perpetrator role and actually the exploitation that some of them might be experiencing might make them a perpetrator so we've got to take a child first approach and chris do you want to give some examples of things that we're doing in that space yes of course um so i was just going to echo a little bit firstly that um often with young people and and also adults that we are concerned about um that presents a risk around exploitation are also um paradoxically um can be experienced in exploitation themselves at exactly the same time as well um and and that does make it very very complex um one of the things which we are really trying to emphasize on in terms of our approach um is is firstly kind of understanding um and working with young people um and also adults as well around how um they build narratives of relationships and what a healthy relationship looks like from from their own individual sense and also from some of those kind of causal factors and influential factors as well and that could be around some of the the previous experiences that they've had around exploitation and also being a victim of that as well um and really what we are trying to um look at further developing um which we know from kind of good practice in relation to um domestic violence and domestic abuse is about all then ensuring that whilst we are um looking at bringing people that we are worried about and perpetrators of exploitation to to to to justice and to prevent and disrupt that is that we're also um really really clear and in developing our sense of um programs that look at trying to support change within behaviors um and also um to create reflective spaces in relation to that as well that's not to say that there would still be um certainly in terms of recent change the legislation pursuables on of of um kind of criminal prosecutions and things as well but one of the things that we also want to do is ensure that we do have a development of perpetrator programs which are looking at supporting behavioral change in relation to that the other part as well is about also then the preventative work that we want to focus on in relation to younger siblings or younger children within households of either older siblings or older children or adults as well um in which uh there is identified um concerns around exploitation either from a victim's perspective or from um a perpetrator point of view thank you sure you open up if you've got any questions i want to make council i just wanted to comment and again echo the comments chris about your your contribution to the borough uh and uh and how grateful we all are but this is such a readable accessible visually stimulating and informative report and i really think it's a it's an exemplar of all by of what a council a report should look like a report that's meant to be engaging the public and and and actually communicating not just to council officers and counsellors but to the outside world it's a really really really excellent we've put together a report thank you just to say well done to mr kelly who took the lead on pulling that together it's really just emphasizing what um chris has said as well where everything that's happened in the service has been both a consultation to happen years ago so hopefully we can keep up this good work to make sure that it adds to the well-being of all our young people that we can actually support and protect them thank you leader i think it's quite a fitting tribute chris that uh the final report that he happens to speak to relates to an issue that um a lot of local government uh workers do aspire to achieve which is make a positive impact to their local area their portion of the world their community that they call their own um it is quite quite something that i know um chris has been very proud of not just in his tenure in barnet but is an entire local government so it ought to be remembered sometimes when we talk about the millions of pounds of money that local government spends it can be lost in the in the malaise of that what actually the consequence is for individuals and um the people that we are looking to protect 2.9 million pounds a week that london boroughs spend on placements for young people for instance are is a method by which to protect them from um quite extraordinarily bad experiences that they've had and to allow them to to lead meaningful and fulfilling lives so the the context of this report i think is is just as important as the content thank you unfortunately i'm coming back for another paper just after the next one but thank you very much thank you leader i was going to make a similar point just how fitting it is that the ship was a youth facility for looked after children i was i was so impressed that uh really i don't like sticking stickers and i think it's usually kind of a waste of time getting taking these that way but i was so impressed how um how inspired the children were and how how keen they were to take part in this activity and uh and very much uh you were able to to capture the the these children in a very being there but you also fed them pizza so that might have had something to do with it but i really just just on the social value aspect of this it's um it's it's put so succinctly in this report that reducing everything and uh thank you for that thank you to to chris you've also put the the other chris has also put so much into this report i feel like because chris monday's uh leaving we're talking about chris monday much more but just to thank you both and to thank sarah and pauline for their work and i would certainly echo that thanks to chris kelly and to sarah and to pauline um but i just wanted to um make a comment about chris uh along with the leader uh um we were on your interview panel um many years ago and one of the things that i have a i retain a very acute memory um was your immense passion for young people and particularly vulnerable young people and i can't think of a better way a better final report to be hearing from you um because it embodies everything that that you projected at that that interview and i i just it's very special to to have you here doing that um i did though want to comment on one particular bit about the report and ask and ask you to comment i i've noticed in in the report um explicitly as a short section talking about supporting young and adults from 18 to 25 and recognizing that there is a cliff potential cliff edge um at 18 and the importance of ongoing support and i just like to whether you'd like to comment on on of course there the potential for those young people who have been um victims in their in their earlier teens and their the risk and potential for their continued vulnerability and the importance of continuing to support them i can certainly give a view and maybe um mr kenny can uh briefly sort of comment as well i think it's one of the real challenges that there is for uh adolescents is that you know there's a cut off at 18 when um services that have been there to support you suddenly are there to criminalize you um and uh you're still being exploited but you're 18 and uh there's a very different set of responses what we've tried to do um in barnet is to make sure that we've continued to work with with adolescents over the age of 18 in a similar type of way and we've done that through our youth offending service and the support that we've been offering in that space but it's one of those areas this sort of what we would call transitional safeguarding from being a an adolescent into being an adult that i still think across the country we haven't particularly cracked because somebody is an adult at 18 they are supposed to be able to be responsible for all of their actions yet they if they are being exploited um or controlled or groomed or various other things it's it's a it it remains a challenge and um i do think it's something that the government needs to think of around what should we have in place because these children these young these young adults they're not eligible for adult social care nor should they be necessarily it's a very different type of approach that's required and i don't think anywhere is particularly cracked area apart from if they're already in an offending position where they'll have probation and others but i do think it's a it's a huge gap nationally for a very small number of young people um and so what ends up what what they end up doing is going to to jail which doesn't necessarily then mean that any preventative work can be done and we all know the issues of um regularly going to prison doesn't necessarily transform especially if the education and support that you so want in prison isn't available to the extent that it was but chris do you want to say one or two points on that um so only to add that we we've already um begun kind of the journey around kind of the coordination of services and support post dating um so our adults risk panel um certainly over the last year has has expanded in relation to um looking um at um some of some of the young people which are transitioning post dating um in order to to look at continuation of of um wraparound support one of the um things that i would say is that this is something that um we we we're certainly um very keen on continuing to develop in relation to um additional um services and universal offers of support um one of the things that that is is is really positive is that we are seeing um a number of our youth and grassroots organizations and and youth provisions and also extending um the support um the mentoring the drop-ins to to to post 18 as well um so that's why very much we wanted to be ahead of the game um in comparison to other local authorities um to ensure that um we are thinking about exploitation um as not just a child um a form of child abuse but also um ongoing abuse as well thank you i think the costs to the individuals and society this is this is looking at almost reorientating taking a different direction on how we look at community assets steve backwards and as they're setting up a community asset panel i don't know if uh uh mr sale want to give a brief introduction can do um so just to say that this new approach has been in the works for quite some time um has we've obviously got here through collaboration with different teams so through you know make sure we still consider the benefit that they have on our communities and our residents uh just add the service charge so tenants are currently liable to repairs um but they don't carry those out so passing they end up passing the cost of the council so our approach is to try and cover some of those costs and as you'll see in the paper it's quite a minimal amount comparison the paper highlights the amount of money that the council has spent on repairs uh for community centers again in these these are typical uh standard leases where the tenant has the repairing obligations um but nonetheless where community groups are doing uh great work with the community and their funds are quite tight help because they lack the experience and the finances so over the last couple of years we have um we have incurred a cost of 228 000 um by allowing us to have this service charge based on a percentage uh it allows us to recoup some of the money where we right members want to comment talk yeah i mean i welcome this report i think it's long overdue and there's no doubt that this is an area where historically i think the council has not really managed these a lot of these properties we were going back decades in some cases here where organizations were using premises without at least she was on the the asset being maintained and i think when a decision is made to give an organization a preferential rate to occupy a building i as for for very good reasons and i i support the changes have been made in relation to assessing that here you know we still have to you know put in place a regime which ensures that those assets they are are basically maintained i and i and kept in the condition that when they come back to the council they you know the repairs are up to date and they've been well maintained and so we can then at that stage allow another organization or relate to the same organization but not have a repairs bill of 228 000 for example i and also just to have the fact that a fact that actually the the land or tenant relationship and and run properly and i think you know i that's just prudent a management and good management and i think it's welcome to see that we've uh a big homeless action partner didn't have a lease and and that's you know that's not a satisfactory position to be in a we've regularized that and they're now quite rightly uh on on our lease and it's the sort of thing which we need to make sure is in place and i think this is really welcome because these assets are there for organizations into the future as well so we need to maintain them that so thank you very much uh for this paper i think it's very self-explanatory i think it's very much needed we do have a lot of community assets uh to to either enforce or put a plan in place where we either have to make a decision sometimes it's a difficult decision uh but that would be made with the panel three i think also there's a role of trying to encourage groups to share assets so that the assets are better spread around because often uh somebody would have an asset to a community center might hire our commercial rent sometime but it might be empty half the time as well so actually getting groups to work together hopefully be one of the effects of this because it benefits everybody and the other thing about recognizing the leases always remember the lease protects both parties you know because sorry did you want to it's a very good point because i've heard at least an organization could be thrown out at any time it's unfair it has to be we have to be very upfront about what was intended just to add to the leader's point so historically we have allowed uh community groups to sublet and one of the reasons behind that was so they could generate income um and that income hopefully by doing this it will feed into the service charge port and it will be affordable okay come on i mean i mean i think that's the reality of college sector funding is that sometimes people have think it can be a really useful tool but we it has to be codified and it has to be agreed that it's the proper thing to do and i think this is what this is doing is bringing this into and that's one good example of that yeah and i also think some of the other things although the service charge might come up first and might be a thing groups mentioned that the whole idea of having a panel using social value using other matrices rather than uh let's see that that's probably a bit worn an hour point by now and they see that used to be everything almost you know 100 percent cap and any other questions right now the recommendations have been amended so i will have to read out and i will read out the new the new version recommendations the cabinet approved the new approach to allocating community assets as set out in this report that cabinet delegate authority for further amendments to the new approach to allocating community assets in line with the proposals made in this report to the cabinet member for the treaty partnerships economy and effective council in consultation with the executive director for strategy and innovation and the third and this has been amended that authority will be sought from sought from council to amend the constitution to reflect the cabinet member for strategic partnerships economy economy and effective council authority can approve leases of community assets for a ring which is less than the best consideration reasonably obtainable to organizations and on terms considered and approved by the community assets panel where completion of such a lease would otherwise afford to be dealt with afford to be dealt with by council to the value of it being less than best consideration under the council but goes under uh under the council's constitution so basically it go to council because it's an amendment in the constitution and it's to do with being able to make decisions which are considered less than best value but using the principle involved in the report of social social value with those recommendations all right thank you so that's a great thank you remuse and sal next one is item 12 which is the annual equalities report if you want to introduce it councillor beg thanks for that uh councillor beg um should just open it up for any sort of question councillor more first of all then councillor snuiderman thank you uh councillor beg and and and and all of the officers who who are working on this um i think the thing that i would particularly like to um praise and comment on is the very systematic approach using a whole range of data the quote the joint strategic needs analysis you talked about um other needs analysis being done um so there's a real strong sense of data intelligence contextual data going into this and i think that's a really important approach to dealing um with um equalities inequalities and driving um a fairness uh approach um because it's really important that um when resources are challenged as i think all of our all budgets around the country at the moment you need to make the very best use of the resources to where they can make the most difference have the greatest impact and so throughout this report there are a whole range of that um there's a whole range of work that lends to that but it's on a really solid base of systematic data and intelligence and understanding what will make the understanding where we need to make a difference to our communities and how we do that um and just to reflect that you you've drawn on the joint strategic needs analysis but also quote the by the health gap the uh director of public health report from last year and there are then a series of pieces of work that are quoted that have come through and from that um and are making a real difference on the ground so i think it's that real sense of of both being aspirational but also very practical in what we can achieve so thank you to everyone who's involved the snowman in cancer come by um um yeah thank you i just wanted just thought it was worth um there it's back um i just thought it's worth highlighting i think it's really good rapport that is really um it you know encompasses the whole area of you know of council of council activities i just wanted to particularly highlight that it was good that it it covers in on our net zero ambitions it covers it covers a just transition and important as we look to move into the next stage of the barnet zero campaign to say it's not just about tackling climate change but it's also about the practical effects of climate change on our residents and you know with reference to you know grants under the warm home scheme looking at fuel poverty and and what we can do what we can do to tackle that alongside in training in green skills women women into construction of those courses that are happening at edgeware at the moment and um even and it's impressive even managed to get a reference to community skips in there so i just wanted to highlight the report but particularly um it's really important that you know we're not just doing our net zero work to help the environment we're doing it with a view to improving the lives of residents and it's important that we take into account all residents so it's it's great that this that's covered as part of this report thank councillor began councillor conway um yeah i wanted to echo the thanks uh for everyone involved in this um i particularly welcome the focus on community cohesion and the way in which so many different teams across the council have come together recently on that um i think that's also with this report and and others on community participation actually are really reflective of the way the cabin has helped us collectively uh as a team and as a council look at this work um and i wanted to thank the community participation team for all the work they've been doing with the round tables because part of the qualities is is making sure um that people have me at the table uh and that they're heard and i know that there's been a huge amount of work to do that both in the town hall and across the borough thank you yeah thank you my colleagues comments about the poor and there's some kind of stark statistics i mean that the difference quite often glasgow's referred to in relation to life expectancy as being the the worst example in the country but even in barnet you know the the difference in life expectancy in different areas of 4.30 can have an effect on people's health health okay one of the things i think is very obviously refers to the increase in homelessness approaches but also i think it's worth to remind remember that you know families in poverty in london which is what the highlights and 51 percent of their income and housing costs that's compared to the average national average of 39 percent and so the the high cost of of rents in london really does disproportionately impact those they have the least ability to pay and it's and and that's a really stark kind of statistics private rented sector is 64 percent of a family's income and we know that the private sector is is thank you leader i just wanted to say it's fitting that this is the last report that chris has before cabinet this is why this is why you have to watch cabinet from the beginning because you'll miss some of our callback jokes um there used to be an antiquated uh view of equalities that it was somehow prohibited that you design a service in the way that you want to do it and then go back and make sure that it doesn't adversely impact minorities or people with protected characteristics this approach is much more progressive and much more positive it takes into account that that service is designed best which respects the multiplicity of identity and an individual experiences life and and service provision there's a particular line from the report which i very much think underscores this across the council services are thinking differently about how they are delivering services embedding the ethos of our fair barnet roadmap into policies probably been any questions but do anything you want to have any comment i'll i'll make one comment um uh in relation to to this report i'm really proud of the work that as an administration as our and as officers we've been able to do in relation to this really critical area councillor moore uh spoke um uh eloquently earlier about um the key issues that i uh came to barnet to tackle which was about vulnerable children and and and uh what i think we've been able to do with this document and uh under the leadership of councillor beg is to enable us to be more progressive in this space um there's not many equalities reports that talk about intersectionality talk about the whole person talk about the um the the different challenges of how uh different power relationships affect um ability to thrive in a community and so i'm really proud that we've been able to do that and what we can see in the report is um a whole council approach so yes it is about um communities it is about um our approach to um uh to work that we do on on the roads and on um other things i'll always remember um um challenging um mr miller um about uh some work about gritting uh and that there's quite a lot of research uh around gritting uh that says that it's dominated by um roads used by men rather than uh roads used by women and there's a lot of evidence that supports that and what was really great was that craig took that away and had a look at what's our approach here in bonnet fortunately it hasn't needed to have a lot of gritting recently but he's all prepared to make sure that if it does it's not adversely affecting women and it's i think it is that thing that um councillor knackley said is that we make lots of assumptions inequalities and we develop our services and we assume that they're not having an adverse impact impact what i hope we do now um and through this work and the work that hal and colleagues have have helped um deliver is a different type of approach where we start by saying what might the impacts be and then develop the services so um i do commend the administration for their work on this and enabling us to um to talk about equalities in a way that we weren't um necessarily always um at liberty to do um previously and i think that we've made some really significant progress and i do wish you well as you take that agenda forward and thank you for uh tolerating me as your director of children services for the last 10 years and i wish you all very well as uh things move forward uh thank you thank you for that oh go on then go on cancer beg uh so chris my sincere thanks for your work with me on this and i wish you the very best for the yeah great thank you very good work for everybody we we now move to business planning um right thank you leader so i think it is important to note that the report comes after we've just discussed a number of positive interventions that the local authority has made um uh in in relation to uh keeping children safe qualities etc because it it does impact our ability to provide those services either um at a at the scale that we currently are indeed at the quality that we would like to if we are not financially stable moving into the future and that's really what the business planning item is about and has has uh always been um underscored by so this comes in the wake of the discussion we had in november which sets out the uh the context and the scene that we find ourselves in the perfect storm of spiraling temporary accommodation costs adult social care costs the uh inflation impacted costs of placements in children's services and um we we had a bit of a discussion about what the causes of that were both um nationally in terms of the the economic consequences of the liz trust budget and the poor management by the national government as well as locally the the type of decision making and poor financial oversight and management of the previous administration um which has resulted in the difficulty with which we have to face the uh financial deficit so we're now moving into the solutions portion of this this is turning the page on tory chaos this is moving into a stable five-year medium-term financial situation and the solution will obviously be multi-phased it will be very complex because the the problem is itself particularly complex so we we we need to take everything that we have um available to us all of the um all of the options that we have available to us into account that that could be process uh related in terms of the organization partnership work with government and um difficult decisions that the administration will need to make in order to you know to overcome um the projected overspend that we do face so i thought just very quickly i would remind cabinet colleagues and um and anyone anyone watching some of the more more important um scene setting facts about why we've got to this position before i refer specifically to the business planning uh report and some of the some of the measures we're taking to to overcome it so i i mentioned in in a few minutes ago that the perfect storm related to some of the uh legally mandated obligations that we as local authority have adult social care temporary accommodation children's services let's take each of those in turn so barnet has one of the largest over 65 populations in london 75 000 uh residents are over the age of 65 could potentially be eligible for social care if found in need now uh that we also have a lot longer life expectancies than ever before people are living for longer in states of unhealth which could potentially be requiring of adult social care in fact since the pandemic uh year of 2019 2020 there was a 14.1 total numbers that relates to about 800 residents at the same time over the same period the cost of providing that care has increased by an astonishing 46.6 which is about 1.1 million a considerable bill to to overcome when it's uh not just required we're expected of local authorities to provide that to its most most vulnerable people temporary accommodation so we have the sixth lowest stock of social homes in london and uh at a time when we're seeing ever increasing applications for temporary accommodation that is a relevant factor so barnet in the first quarter of this year saw 950 new applications which is about double as much as two years ago um when when we entered our our time as administration so that's about 10 new homeless applications per day in the time that we've been um the administration of barnet in the second quarter of this year that number increased to 1015. so the relevant cost if we were to put all uh into uh into emergency nightly paid temporary accommodation is 7 000 for quarter one and about 8 000 per unit per year i should i should mention so um the actual equivalent total is about seven million pounds in quarter eight million in quarter two considerable sums of money um finally turning to children's um social care something that we pride ourselves as being uh rather excellent in in barnet we have seen a 120 increase in the number of pupils with um education significantly higher than the pupil population in in barnet at the same time there's a 41 increase in um in the cost by uh by historically unprecedented amounts i mentioned earlier in relation to another report that the cost across london is 2. million pound per week on placement which uh which when when escalated across the entirety of london is about 150 billion pounds a year so that that is a a whistle-stop tour of of the the context that uh tough decisions in this current budget setting um process the first phase of which is this business planning report so i would like to draw cabinet's attention to um the refreshed mtfs in paragraph 3.4 of the recommendations which makes note of what we anticipate the overspend to be in the forthcoming financial year and the remainder of the mtfs using 22 million pound worth of savings as part of this budget planning port which will go out to consultation um immediately after um meeting which will still need uh leave a residual gap of up to 36 million pounds now i need to explain why um it differs from the poster from the 29 million that is is stated in in the in port we we made a certain we made a set of assumptions based on the autumn um government budget and predicted certain possible mitigations that we could avail ourselves of to reduce the budget gap by uh from that 52 million down as it transpires the the red uh categorized mitigations will not be will not be available to us so potentially potentially uh yield a benefit for us and as as we've now discovered they they will not so the the overspend that we're actually looking to face is closer to 36 million is on the table just a few qualitative remarks about the 22 million pounds that we've already identified as part of this and why uh they they do represent such a such a difficulty even even members allowances and member development budgets haven't been left unturned we've identified 50 50 000 pounds worth of savings from that budget which includes reducing the development budget by seven and a half thousand and reducing three special uh four special responsibility allowances across the organization to to deal with that um every single department has has been appealed to to identify how efficiencies can be achieved in the the manner of operation of the uh of the organization so how we do things to achieve the same level of quality outcome but in a way that represents them roughly in in parity to uh the number of self-service hours and there's no there's a number of other areas that perhaps colleagues would interested in in referring to i think it's uh it's important to remember that this is the first stage of the budget setting process we will know more once the local government financial uh finance settlement is is uh made more apparent to us and we move into the the more uh detailed in a budget setting i'm afraid i don't have a spare money leader i mean i think it was a very concern that they gave a very good summary of the situation that we're in i i mean it is it is in relation to housing it's demand led and it's cost it's 10 new homeless applications a day a 42 1015 new but as it comes to that grades you know it's just the 850 new families that arrived in quarter one so it really is a perfect storm and it's one of the things i would say towards our pledge of delivering a thousand council homes okay that's that's one of the ways that you solve this problem in the medium to long term i and i think just as in terms of how the budget process is a has kind of played out is as a basic principle you shouldn't spend you know you shouldn't spend money you don't have and i think that is one of the issues around what we've been looking at in the capital program where pointed out leader has really made that that that position even more acute so you know i i think there's a lot of very good work that's gone into removing items from um i wanted to thank my ward colleague councillor nakfi and everyone that's been so involved in thoroughly interrogating uh the figures and putting us on a very different course um that is sensible and forward-looking um i particularly wanted to thank the community safety team for the work that they have done um throughout our time in office um i think we moved very quickly to fix the foundations to sort out the situation that we inherited which was chaos frankly um i used the term a while ago in for council that we did more in 20 months than the previous administration did in 20 years um and i i don't use those words lightly so a big thank you to the community safety team it is a priority for the people of barnet to feel safe in this borough um and the investment and the work continues thank you well i've got councillor edwards first i just want to uh thank councillor nakfi for saying some of the things you said about social care because often that you know it's a it's the biggest spender um and i'm sure kevin will confirm that and um and it's going to continue to be that that's going to be the case because we have a you know our demographic here is the population is getting older and uh and and you know as they get older as in as he said in his presentation um for the last 20 years people are going to be more and more in need of support and particularly given our manifesto commitment to keeping people independent which in my in my book means being a home close to neighbors close to family and that we do know that that's the most expensive form of care then if we place people into residential care it would be cheaper for the council but it wouldn't be right for our people nevertheless i think i'm really pleased that um um uh councillor nakfi is is our lead on this in this issue because um you know we have we have inherited a very difficult financial situation both nationally and locally and it's to the credit to all our staff in adult social care and i wanted to make that point for the hard work that they do and the dedication that they have shown to providing good quality and appropriate services for our residents and um so i'm really pleased that we're working hard to do our bits to contribute to the difficult financial situation at the same time as maintaining a good quality high quality service to our residents thank you i think yeah i think the fact that we've actually got the new simply new not be afforded and did not anticipate the interest rates going up was just really morally inept and what we've got now especially with young people i mean you've heard today about how we're looking after vulnerable young people and the plans we've got on equality and how we take so seriously what we do with our young people and how we listen to them and how we respond to their needs and yet at the same time we still have got and it's not all of them but we still have private providers taking hefty profits out of looking after vulnerable young children and to my mind vulnerable young children or adolescents should not be for profit uh our highest one at the minute is running at 17 000 a week and we average eight um young people over 10 000 a week now we know that the young people that we're trying to make sure that we don't bring into care that we get the early help in as soon as possible but the fact is is that when people need that help and when they need to come to care and when they need those placements it is our responsibility to step up and look after them because there are young people but that is not making it easier for the fact that now we have this situation with funding where we have got to be really honest and upfront and know how we can make ends meet and how we can have a balanced budget but the fact that it's been a complete nightmare for councils having their funding reduced for year on year and then finding when we eventually get to the root of the problem as to why all the money had got used up because of all the bills that have to be paid for what have been left for us i think it's pretty amazing that we've got onto the case this quickly and that we'll still make sure we'll get a balanced budget at the end um i just wanted to add my thanks to council nakvi um for the work he's been doing putting together the budget and just to just to reiterate you know despite the perfect storm of the impact of the previous tory government and indeed the previous conservative administration in in not properly planning for and putting aside the money needed for projects going forward as council like you said we are starting to turn the page but in turning that page we have been able to as far as possible protect a lot of frontline services and although and in the environment section of the savings there are many savings listed there but in all of them the priority has been to try and maintain a good a good frontline service at the same time as working working more efficiently so that we're not you know we're as far as possible maintaining the high quality service that we've been proud of over the last over the last couple of years but just you know working you know more working in a more efficient way and the community skips is a good example of that where we're you know reviewing the service looking to be able to make savings but at the same time responding to a lot of the feedback that we've had from residents about accessing the service at weekends and looking at how we can move that service from a weekday to a weekend one at the same time as contributing and not insignificant saving to any other comments i can't just follow i mean the comments about you know a making savings but actually one of the things that we have done and the comments around uh you know basically if we cancel more um just i'd like to echo the comments about um thanking uh councillor nakvi and the officers for the immense task i think of what's been untangling a financial mess by left by the previous administration comments have been made about the unfunded commitments that were made and the ramifications of that but i think it's particularly shocking uh for a conservative administration who persistently prided themselves on on on having a good handle on um on on their financial management so i i think it's really important that we are turning a page on what uh others have described as uh tory uh financial chaos because i think the residents of barnet deserve a better way of managing finances uh one final point leader sorry that i didn't mean to mention whilst a lot of the focus here uh tends to be on the revenue budget we mustn't forget the capital program also which has undergone extensive revision and uh quite a quite a detailed level of reprofiling about 90 million pounds worth of projects have have been um either reprofiled or from the program in consequence of the fact that we just simply cannot afford them um because of the debt financing obligation that we would end up inheriting and you start to finance the budget setting process with a negative figure that eats into your ability to protect uh the the vital services that other colleagues have mentioned so that it is a part that uh whilst not immediately apparent in the papers is something that is a fundamental uh foundation that people need to remember thank you thank you i'd like to thank the officers uh kevin involved and your speaker for a patient is that everything when we train things every day just to keep her off on the ball now on the recommendations there is a slight change uh of the supplemental and phase three of the report so i take it if you read them the changes are just to recommendation 11 we're seeking out the word approves in the first line and and at the at the end that's superfluous all right and one of that can come out next to the approves either side you can take out one of that things but given that are we happy to approve the recommendations okay now we go on to item 14 which is the brent cross update and i need to remind you that there is an exempt report so please make no reference to the exempt report without letting us know in advance um um but uh uh canter houston do you want to introduce and i think probably for the purpose of this meeting it it to a meaningful debate we probably do need to have a bit of a briefing on the exact report sorry i think we probably do need to let look just just give us an outline of the exact report uh just so people are aware of what's what's uh uh but i but yes basically this is a this is a regular report that comes to cabinet on brent cross i and actually you know given some of the more negative conversations we've had they you know i think brent cross continues to be a positive stories to deliver a you know basically across the whole of the regeneration project the phase one so this this report is really the regular update i mean basically the progress on site is continuing a and the first new residential plots are nearing completion plot one which is a particular of particular importance to to uh the councillors is progressing really well because this is the one where sheffield hallam are going to be moving into and where we did make a you know a commitment to allow that to go forward they that that's now up to the third floor in terms of the bill so that's that's on on that's on my uh on schedule a pot 12 which a l and q a a are going to be moving residents into that is a going to be well that is now i think completed and some residents might be moving in before christmas this is whitefield's estate a the rest will remember will be a moving in just just as the new year begins that's another successful a you know a bit of progress a and on plot one a related argent are working to make sure because sheffield hallam are taking six stories that the rest of the building is pre-let so that hopefully when the building opens a we will have a fully let building and a success story there's a lot of detail on the report a one of the things that's worth highlighting is the third phase proposals a provides proposals a are going forward and that's to bring forward a smaller number of plots a that's part of the third phase so there'll be a kind of third phase part two that will come forward subsequently and that's just a matter of scheduling a again lots of nice pictures of the progress on site uh it's always worth going on site and having a look right across because it really is every time you go it's different anyway we had a very nice turning on the christmas lights event say just a couple just a few days ago another part of the success story here is also the station and 290 000 passengers will have used the station in the first full year of operation which is way you know that's that's above what was expected and again shows what a really important piece of infrastructure that is and it and it really was delivering the station i think is that that's made right across one of the most exciting development regeneration projects going forward in london and and continuing to be a success story i there is a part two to this which is around the retail park and i think you know who can outline some of the the detail of that if we go into session but that's so basically i think that what we're looking at is the retail park as part of the regeneration project it was brought forward a as part of the regeneration project the timelines on the regeneration have changed and so what we're doing is basically a continuing a it's the regeneration of the retail park is is not going to happen in for another couple of years so let's make sure those leases are extended because the the people using the retail park including next are are very much they want to do stay there so if anyone has any the the exempt there's an exempt a paper which that goes into the finances of this who gets here to ask answer any questions on that i was there anything else you want to the session no no nothing specific to it but happy to take any questions is that a seconded and agree you want it you want a question i'm going to come back to the main bill after the example uh councillor clark thank you councillor snyderman yes i just welcome this report um this is this is i believe our first uh meeting with a brand cross report since um even though that's not the report but i just wanted to come on to plot 12. um it's really good that l and q are having those resonance drop-ins i'm wondering and i appreciate this maybe a commercial decision for l and q thank you yeah i just wanted just a few points i wanted to highlight um it's good to see that the heating is on track to be solved for plots 53 and 54 in brent terrace so i know that seems to have taken a bit longer but i hope there's not going to be a further delay to that beyond january um cliff house farm buildings i think it it highlights their ongoing engagement with the tenants i think that is important because i think we recognize the the council clerk and our unity so it would be it is important as as highlighted in 1.26 there to sort out the lease and indeed to try and sort out the future a bit beyond beyond that three year lease as well um oh just on in uh regarding um cpz i'm just i'm sure when you talk about the uc5 um epz starting the informal consultation in early 2025 i just wanted to check that was january um and finally just on the station i think every time i'm at the station i see more people there so it is is encouraging how how well used being and how it's being used and indeed i'm looking forward to going to the one year anniversary next week um so i just think that's that that's really positive i did have a quick question about there's a reference there to disputes with network rail and i just wondered if you could just say a little bit about what those questions thank you very much councillor um there are a few questions there there are a few comments as well so i'll maybe cover them in in town if i miss anything out please just do do come in um i think just on the cpz uh yes january um you did ask kevin did ask whether any communications going out before apparently saying and there's no reason for that to be delayed at the moment you look on the wording going out is that gonna is that a um a letter drop or is that on the website i believe it's on the website but make could i come back to you just to confirm um and then on uh on your anniversary yes the station is becoming busier and busier it's the 10th of it will be is and will be what publicized so everyone is welcome um on the uh the ongoing disputes as as the as it's paper our previous discussions about how we close the accounts effectively network parallel in the real industry and it's a standard part of the process at this stage in any kind of infrastructure projects where you effectively go through the accounts reconcile spent uh and and and go through that process that invariably ends up with a process of disagreeing on some of those points and that's what um and we're expecting that process to be only in the new year um so yeah i mean i think as previously reported as well just on um his house farm oh uh yes so is it was i thought there was it was a comment but is there is there a specific question oh well it was a comment i just wondered if you wanted to comment on my comment about the importance of um securing the future of the farm within the community so so the regeneration is a regeneration it's not it's about the people who live and work and and and uh very much reflect that uh the question at the moment is how we navigate the process the way we are at the moment which is on the edge of starting something and which is doing something and making sure surety they need that they're on the boat effectively throughout that process when we don't necessarily know exactly where it's going to end up because that's the point of going on the process in the first place um to answer those questions so yes i i'm very happy to give that assurance and that's reflected i think in the wording in the paper please and i'll just make two quick comments one is i think you're very brave with the negotiations with network rail i would have stopped the point rather than added next year but they will but when you look at the rail figures i think the important and we sometimes forget it is the importance of the bridge we've linked for other dynamics that will help with staples corner a whole a lot of plans for that area around for the westlands sorry did other people put that consideration first encounter the bag yeah i mean partly in response to council chairman i mean term it's a technical term in terms of speed it's really an unresolved issue in terms of the negotiation not that we're going to the you know anytime soon to the high court or anything i and i'm just you know an administration comment on on the farm farmers you know that's something and as barry says you know the numbers for the railway station the bridge the numbers for the pedestrian use so uh there's a very active piece of work happening at the moment across the joint ventures that's with officers from the council and from late sergeants as well on um effectively um not just scoping out but really defining what that space could look like um there's around 170 squarems it's actually already built so it's effectively a shell at the moment there's just nothing inside the shell um so uh what we've done so far is over the autumn there was a process of effectively kind of speaking to residents of very high level things that are important care about um over the next few months it's all about kind of going through a process to really get that down to a definition the engagement will do the um the winter and on the train station um point so um i'm going to use a technical word and i apologize it's called abstraction and it's the way to thank you chair um i just thought in the light of our previous um budget discussion i i would like to comment on the uh sections 1.3 and 1.4 of the 1.33 and 1.34 of the of the um cover paper and and that deals with what is called there the whitefield land but i think better known to most of us as the low rise section of the whitefield estate and um it could be very obvious to residents as it is to anyone who drives past that that demolition is complete and it's been fascinating watching that go on um but i wanted to note um your section talking about the options for interim use for that for that site and in light of that previous discussion that um as you quote them everything that you're looking at as possible interim uses um would have options uh but they would contribute to the council's a budget wider budget and that's so whether that's um looking at temporary accommodation or highways or depots highways depot space or whatever it might be but that it's about there is an opportunity for income generation or cost avoidance that would support the council's financial position and i wondered how those options are progressing uh yes they are progressing so so effectively um suits there is a there are a series of parcels of land around around braincross town which are in the the control of the council effect partial the the lower rise buildings have been demolished the three taller buildings remain there um so i think effectively um work that's happening at the moment is looking at what are the options in a way that supports that wider wider kind of financial challenge so the work the work on temporary accommodation is very active at the moment we're expecting one side i don't want to say which going back to catch previous comments um uh we'll have a firm of you as to what that means for the towers um and that's i should stress uh uh uh once we clear what we think the answer is um there's also then a lot of other lands so so you know looking at the northern end of the site you know towards the north circle there's not so many people for some depot space for big millers for example so and i don't mean heavy advocates smoky bits of dust it's more like parking for the not the big vehicles but some vehicles um are there any options for advertising on the hoarding that goes around facing the north circular so all of those are options that are being okay before anybody else puts their hand up right i will now again move the motion to exclude the press and public on the basis that the exempt item will involve we're back we're back on the webcam just so people know we're back into the public uh part of there are we happy to vote on the recommendation