Transcript

Or just simply didn't speak to the child that we were in. So we did go through with all that work. This is particularly for the benefit of new members. And when one looks at this document that we see presented on page 31 onwards, it is a succinct, concise piece of document that sets out, firstly, what kind of complaint that one can make. The manner in which it's going to be addressed, where they should go through the formal or the formal route, there's a detailed investigation procedure, there's a detailed procedure relating to the hearing, the hearing procedure, and of course, due process, the rules of natural justice being observed, order of witnesses, and the outcome, which hitherto, all of them, were quite frankly absent or were buried so deep into the documents that one had to use a magnifying glass to be able to locate it. So I think that the work, and the work has gone through a number of revisions, not just by us as committee members, but of course, the professional tape, are there, I mean, of course, the officers are always looking at it. Yeah. So thank you for that. And yes, you're quite right, Anne, I do particularly like the complaints procedure flowchart. Because the point I've been making is that this is a document that needs to be user friendly. It needs to be read by the outsiders, and what I mean by that are the electorates, the people looking in, and if they see there's an explanation, juxtaposed with a flowchart, and then they can immediately follow it through, even if they don't refer to the main document, if they go to the flowchart, there it is. Those are the steps, you know, if you go there, then you turn left, or if you turn right, what's the outcome? What's the procedure? Exactly. Alright, so, then do we note, I think we've just been asked to note, we note, of course, the declarations of interest, the gifts, the new code of conduct, and the flowchart, yes? No. Thank you. Any other comments, any thoughts on that before we move on to, yeah? I think it's both, isn't it, Magia? Yes. Well, yeah. It's in the constitution. It's in the constitution, so it's in the website. I appreciate one is to play with it a bit, to be able to find it, but it's in the website. It's in the website, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, you're on mute. Yeah. Apologies. Yes, it is on the website. It's at part 5.1a of the constitution. Yeah. And do you have a sort of governance review cycle, just to open it up again periodically, even if you don't make changes? My understanding is that it's not annually. We do it between two and three year period, isn't it? Yeah. Well, it hasn't been done for a bit while. No, no, no, it hasn't been why this work has been done, but going forward. Yeah. Annually, yeah, absolutely. We've got a whole constitution already working for it. We're chunking through the constitution now, so it's coming in in tranches, and this was one. Yes, I think what we need to be doing is that once all of the work is done, then we would need to perhaps review it annually, I think, whether we make any changes, minor changes or substantive changes. But we don't have to deal with that today. Let's get all the work done. Yes, but I think we need to wait until the whole of the work to be done. Would you agree with that? Well, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm open to views on it. Yeah, I mean, you know, you could say this, this, this procedure. This particular procedure. Yeah. Yes, yes. And I think that's enough. I just wanted to add as well, but it's just, when I get there, but I will do. There's some, another guidance that I want to put together that supports this, just for members, there's lots that members don't know, like for example. Well, they might, might do. But independent persons, you can, you can approach them anytime, as members, for guidance on things. It's like, if you've got, if you're the recipient of a complaint, you've got your own worries, and you're like, who do you want to talk to about? I don't know if that's kind of . So it's these types of things that I just want to kind of bring to everybody's attention that, you know, lots of things. I agree. I think, as you go sort of through the process, things sort of come up, but then we can have the same importance about reviewing it. Yes. For many years, seeing what things have come up and what changes, there may not be any changes, but having all the policies, things do sort of flare up, don't they, individuals? Yeah. So we know what they recommend is related. Yeah. I think, yes, we can, we can certainly say, in relation to this particular piece of document, that this can be reviewed any way. Just, just dealing with the other, the wider policies, I mean, again, going back on previous experience, we have had to look at a number of other main policies. Whether it's the harassment or harassment policy or anti-policy, a digital policy, you know, how to use your social media and all the rest of it. But what I would say is that, although that was, that work was done in the past, there's no reason why we are not able to, and I think we've made this point, why we're not able to review those, those policies. If I look at all of the policies that, that could benefit from having a standard eye, then let's have a look at it, let's get an audit of all of the policies, regardless of how recent they were looked at by us. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Is that for the work program then? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, if there isn't any other discussion on that, should we move on to item seven, which is the, the all, the Marshall 12 member development program, which we see. I don't know, I didn't think there's an item here, is there on that? Is this a speaking item here? It's basically just quite, quite similar. There is a mix. Yeah, because up until now, the structure, the report still is in drop, but we just had it, and then it had to come to recession today. So, that is it, but we will go forward, there will be, I think March is our next one, and there will be a proper paper for members to consider. Yes, can we please have a proper paper, because I think this is probably the, and there's no criticism of anyone here, and I'm not sticking to it actually, discuss it as well. But, but I think it's going to be the third or fourth page, and we'll be having just sort of forward updates. I appreciate there are other reasons behind it, but I think it will be helpful, or, that's actually, it's probably high time that we have a written document on it, so let's, let's have that by next March. Yes. Very good. All right. All right. Information update. Item 8, which is, we found on page 43. And, what have we been asked about that? Is anyone going to speak on this? Well, I don't know what have we been asked to do on this. Are we being asked to note? Yes, Manjia. You're, you're on mute. Thanks, Jeff. We, you've touched on it earlier, but the purpose of adding this to the agenda was to inform members about the consultation on the remote meetings and proxy voting. We did circulate a brief document just that I intended to speak to. Yeah. It was simply to highlight that, as Councillor Chatterham mentioned, consultation is ongoing. The Secretary of State for MLG had announced the launch of the government's consultation on the 24th of October. And the lawyers in local government have also launched their own consultation. The lawyers in local government were, and one was focused on obtaining views, obviously, within the sector. And their consultation closed on the 2nd of December, but the government's one is running for eight weeks and that one closes on the 19th of December. Now, the proposed legislation is obviously to ensure that there is increased opportunity for engagement and to also diversify the representation of members and enhance the resilience of councils to deal with ongoing business in times of emergencies. So, if legislation is introduced, the LLG and Association of Democratic Services have offered to work with the government and the LGA to sort of agree an approved governance framework for ensuring that meetings would comply if legislation is passed. So, and this is the purpose of the consultation at the moment is to gain all those views and then to consider what needs to be put in place if legislation was going to be passed. Now, some of the questions that they've looked at considering is, should remote attendance or hybrid attendance apply to all meetings or should councils have the option to decide which meetings it makes sense to have as hybrid or remote? And there is a generally agreed route that councils will know what formats works best for their own authority, but they also need to look at what technology they have in place to support that. And some of the challenges, for instance, that people have already highlighted is the lack of access to the internet that some members of the public and possibly other members may not have, which would make access to remote meetings more difficult, although they've acknowledged that participants can dial in by telephone. And it's about considering the etiquette of participating in those meetings. One of the key issues that they will be seeking views on is how you deal with items in exempt confidential session. Would you require persons like myself to dial in from a secure location if attending meetings remotely, should you permit, for instance, participants who are dialing in remotely to have screened backgrounds where you cannot actually see the location that they're in? One of the key issues that they are in. One of the other issues that they discussed was the difficulty, for instance, for officers to advise the chair in private if you're managing a remote or hybrid meeting. And then there's also the question of quorum in Wales, the quorum is 30% of those who are actually in the room and in person. So how would that actually work for remote attendance? There have been questions about whether or not membership for remote attendance should be two thirds of the entire committee council, how you deal with voting, for instance, and the impact of that on deliberations, what happens if the chair or a councillor decides to step away from a remote meeting during a business? And it was mentioned by lawyers in local government. It was mentioned by lawyers in local government recent workshop that they had in discussing the consultation that one of the one council, although they didn't mention which one, had actually flagged up that they were potentially facing a JR because a councillor had stepped away from the screen during the decision making process. So these are the sorts of things that they're flagging up now that will need to be considered. And then, for instance, will it just be confined to smaller meetings? How do you manage public participation for full council and so on? And how would the public engage in dealing with deputations and speeches? So those are the sorts of things that are currently being considered and what they're seeking views on at the moment. The other issue that was raised. Sorry, did you want to come in? No, you can talk about proxies. Yeah. Yeah. OK, because that's even more of an issue. Go on, sorry. Go on. OK, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So with proxy voting, it's considered quite a challenging area for them to manage. But obviously, the reason that the proposal is being put forward is to see whether member engagement can continue where it's just completely impossible for a member to attend a meeting due to personal or exceptional circumstances. For instance, if they're on maternity or paternity leave, but even if they're in an accident, have an emergency, for instance. However, the whole concept of getting someone else to exercise your vote does give rise to concerns about predetermination and how substitute voting would work. And whether because of the permission to allow somebody else to exercise that for you, whether that leaves members open to third party influences, that could lead to opportunities for fraud. And then there's also the question about how the six month rule would also be impacted by that, because currently attendance, as you all know, is in person at a council meeting. And again, at which meetings would proxy voting be more appropriate for those sorts of things that need to be considered. And what happens if someone cast their vote on behalf of another member inaccurately? That leaves the council open to a number of areas of risk and challenge. And so those are the sorts of issues that are currently being considered. Thank you very much, Manjia. That's very detailed, comprehensive. So the number of issues, but I'm sure that those are matters to be aired during the course of consultation. I don't think we are being asked to do anything with it merely for information, as it says. It's information updates, so we've been informed. Yes, please. Yes, please. Right, yeah. Just to say, as the consultation develops, once we get it up, then we'll bring back to Sac St. where we are now, you know, we've firmed up. There's more proposals that are firmly on the table or whatever it is. This is just the opening, but this will be something that will return and will keep you abreast of. It's a bit, very good. If you don't know what the time is going on. Well, it's only at the moment, it closes on the 19th, but then, I don't know. Right. Thank you very much. I think this is where we close the open meeting and resolve to go into the excluded meeting. Yeah. So the other document on there that you might not notice there, it's just for noted, and it's a good read for members of the Code of Practice on Good Governance for the local authority statutory officers. I was actually involved in this together as well. So it's, you know, a piece of tip for solace, a lawyer's amendment of government. And it just sets out kind of how the statutory officers work. Obviously, this is really important to the work of the committee, so I'll just put it in there. And as I said at the last meeting, if members find it helpful, I'll continue to just circulate. There's so much that I want to say, I'm shumming this, I've done that. So I will continue to bring, you know, guidance documents and things that are key to the work that you do for this committee. Fine, very well. I don't think you're suggesting that you append this and append this to every meeting going forward. I agree. Not this one, but there's different kind of guidance documents within standards and within kind of this role. You mean as we do a forward meeting? Yes, yes. Very well. Very well. Very good. Okay. So, coming to resolve, to close the open meeting, those of you who actually have been glued to your screen and have found this very exciting. Thank you all very much for sticking with us, bearing with us, and we shall see you at the next instalment of the meeting. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Can we resolve to go into the excluded meeting? Please say aye. Aye. Aye. Before you go ahead. So, probably we need to say goodbye to the meeting at this point. Yes. Okay. So.