Transcript

andrica Society and Gretchen Stangham. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. being considered at this meeting i have no interest to declare i have no interest to declare no interest to declare thank you i will now move to introductions my name is the councillor tony boston i represent beckton ward and i'll be chairing this meeting throughout good morning all uh councillor jane lofthaus representing class herself and councillor winston born representing forcefully uh colleen hunt i'm the case officer for today um london borough of noon previously john mcughan representing natural place licensing the queue dmw staff also represent electronic police license thank you very much thank you very much um okay i'll now briefly run through the procedure of this meeting the license and case officer will present their report they will they will then move on to representation from the responsible authorities for example the police trade and standards and or the environmental health team members may seek clarification and concern the applicant and representative on any matter today we have representation for the police licensing team and residents um once again we have no residents present today so it will just be the police licensing team the license holder will also then present their case again we have no license holder present or representation from their representatives finally members may pass resolution to liberate in private and excluded present public including parties and their representatives the clerk and legal advisor will remain with members need to provide advice on procedure and law when the decision has been reached the meeting will be convened and the decision for submitting will be announced in public four written copies of the decisions sent to the applicant and license holder the full school authorities and interest departments usually within five work in a decade party to taking part in this hearing may appeal against the decision to pass straight support within 21 days as this is much in which we are not true employers who will allow many of these from the legal department today represented by mr malik thank you i would also like to inform the parties that we base our decision with report submissions but can i ask for 10 minutes for the meeting please introduce yourself thank you thank you so anyone in this chamber wishes to ask a question during the meeting with a lawsuit if you raise their hand please wait to be invited to submit i would ask that all mobile phones be silenced for the future i'll now invite the case officer to present them thank you thank you chair chair i'll read the report out for you and then i'll explain um why the license holder and his representative isn't here thank you so the members of licensing staff committee asked to hear and determine an application for the review of a premises license for 297 balking road plasto e13 and any valid representation that have been made the review application was submitted by the council license and enforcement team to the council licensing team this was received on the 29th october 2024 the application was advertised by the licensing team in by means of notices in the immediate vicinity of the premises the grounds of the review on the license and objectives of prevention of crime and disorder the prevention of public news and public safety a copy of the view the review application is attached appendix a and supporting supporting documents including warning letters statements photos and cctv our checks attaches appendix a to a1 and a2 police licensing team have submitted a representation and a statement supporting the review application on the grounds of prevention of crime disorder the prevention of public news and public safety and a copy of their letter is attached appendix b two residents have submitted a representation in support of the review uh and a petition a copy of their letters and petition attached appendix c uh d sorry a b and c sorry it is c uh an application was submitted by the laundries restaurant limited on the 20 on april in april 2021 representations was received and a subcommittee sat on the 27th of may 2021 where the application was refused on the 3rd of may 2022 a second application was received by the licensing team for a new new license representation was received by police and the low licensing enforcement team and a committee sat on the 30th of june 2022 where the application was granted with conditions and reduction in hours the decision letter is attached appendix d a copy of the current license is attached appendix e plan of the area is attached appendix f and a plan of the premises is attached appendix g members of the subcommittee asked to hear the review application the representation of the license holder and any value representation received from responsible authorities and interested parties and to determine the application chair that's the report um to date however this morning at 8 15 i received an email from uh the license holders representative mr wasim shah shawani uh and the and his email uh states uh good morning having considered the overwhelming evidence submitted in this case the license holder has decided not to make any representation and has taken the view that the premises license will be revoked immediately therefore one the premises will no longer sell alcohol or sell or supply alcohol two all alcohol will be removed from the premises today three the premises license holder will put the premises up for sale so we have decided that our client sincerely apologize to the council the metropolitan police and the local residents for the breaches and have that have occurred please forgive our client for his non-attendance at the hearing today as our client is not feeling well and is undergoing matrimonial proceedings okay um right so we have decided that we're going to go ahead with the submission essentially i've sent um um the the letter just for sort of service records right thank you so um i don't know if you can put us right on this will that mean that they have surrendered their license or they've not explicitly said they're going to surrender their license but from what they've said um i would they're not contesting their application to revolt today so in a matter of procedure you'll hear from the responsible authorities you'll still need to make a decision and but you will know obviously that they're not resisting what's been said today still doesn't help so how if this if if we are minded to revoke um how would we get them to surrender their license or is that something they would have to propose it will be the normal revocation so the procedure sorry i don't want to i'll just um so the preceding was if the license is revoked today and obviously that's your decision although he's he's um indicated that um once they get the decision letter there is a 21 day um appeal process if they don't appeal that within the 21 days then the licensee's been revoked he can operate from now until the 21 days uh because he could appeal that right so he can operate um but there there's he's not he's not saying that he's going to surrender the license uh even if he does surrender the license it's still there's still a 28 day uh period where somebody can transfer the license whereas if the license is revoked and he doesn't appeal it then the license is gone completely then is that health sorry um yes it was thank you very much uh council of all yeah okay so whatever we decide here today would be transmitted to the license and that means that you have to abide by whatever decision that we made yes so you would follow the standard procedure earlier as you are required to do we will review hearing given how late this notice is and as with the review process you need to identify issues at the premises and how to deal with those premises and then of course slightly differently because they're not resisting the polices and the licensing uh submissions that the license should be revoked but you still have to arrive to that decision organically as you would ordinarily and that decision will be communicated to him and all parties um yes just one just for clarification really the license as it is moment is not for anything that is offline no it's all on on license and is it all um ancillary to food yeah i mean what yeah whatever the license says now like if it is ancillary to food then that that's the license so colin so is there a possibility that you could just bring up some pictures we're going to go through the normal format so if that's okay could you just bring up a picture of the premises um oh i've not logged in sorry oh that's okay uh i need it won't be a sec oh and before we go any further um have you read the representation from the two residents and see the petition excellent thank you so just so it's noted now that it's been lost thank you so this is the premises right okay um so if you if you go down that way well it's a bit slow so so if you go down that you will go into what you think yeah yes yeah canetown so mcdonald's is on 200 yards on the left and obviously if you go the premises is sorry she's so doesn't like sharing so uh obviously you're going up to um balaam street on the left there the residents the residents they live down here down that road there so you've not had any complaints from residents um above i take it there's residents living above i don't know i mean that would be like obviously he and our noise and nuisance team he hasn't made representation so i met i my guess is that no the people who who have made representation i don't know where the petition because there's a petition as well they they possibly could be above it i don't know but um most of the residents in in in my experience when i've dealt with these premises they've all been down here in these in these premises in these flats here and they're saying that they can actually hear the music etc and after yeah yeah from from that outside yeah okay all right thank you are there any questions you want this regarding yeah okay so just going back to your uh report um i noticed that anyone should have in the normal notice or warning letters then i noticed not in the agenda no that was sent in 2000 sorry may 2024 right oh no sorry the warning letter yes is that in my report i think the decision letters one a okay yeah that that's the part of the um application for a review right so i would only put it in if it's been submitted so but there was there was a letter i've just i have checked and there was a letter um sent on the 15th of may as a warning letter right okay thank you um okay now um could you confirm the original application made on the 27th of may 2021 is it the same applicant that was granted to in 2022 uh so there was two applications uh one was refused uh one was refused yeah that's the 27th of may and let me just get out i'll just check the 2020 the 2021 one you want first yes the the first one and then uh the first one applied for yeah they're the same people yeah so mr fernando yeah could you tell me just why it was refused on the 27th on is it oh okay may 2021 because it's literally a year later and it was granted i'll be in the refuse one so i'm trying to find it in the i'll have to go back to the refuse folder so it won't be tech 2021 wasn't it yeah um the laundry's decision so the metropolitan police made representation the council environmental team made representation the council licensing enforcement team made representation and local residents made representation the subcommittee must promote the licensing objectives i won't drag it out i'll just give you the final decision which is no condition uh no conditions or no no conditions or information have been provided by the applicant in respect of noise uh the subcommittee um let me go down a bit further um yeah emmanuel fernandis so he was the same guy uh of course a long decision letter uh having heard all representation written and all the members of the so few of the application uh for a full variation where the premises lies with me we couldn't admit it was in yeah so basically what it was was he didn't demonstrate within the community of impact zone and he didn't provide any um this is just an overview yeah and what i'm just uh he he didn't provide any um evidence to rebut the community of impact zone and uh he didn't put any conditions together um and that's why it was refused basically and then they come back in 2021 and got the license obviously he'd learned his lesson so he came back that my guess is and it was it was granted with reduction in hours and a number of conditions and he must have looked at the ciz and sort of decided you know got a bit of information and it helped him all right thank you um i'm aware that the cctv camera footage uh with regards to please no that's the licencing authorities review application they've submitted to cctv okay but because of how this is happening and they haven't turned up and we're quite within our rights we won't be asking you to see that today no uh no yeah all right thank you any questions just um only really one hinted at are any other premises involved in this with this one in terms involved people drinking in there uh no i think is this is the only premises that's i'd say within a hundred meters of these premises that's got an offset on sales uh sorry you got next door which is the pub which is that they don't have the it's a different type of premises um uh they do we do have noise issues in the pub sometimes um break out of noise but that's been dealt with they've changed the speakers and everything so we don't get a lot of noise from them and i think um that's really the only place that's got on sales um right down by canningtown they've got one and they've got the princess alexander which which is just an old pub that's not really causes any problems for years and years but no um this is really the only place that's any concerns around this area any questions thank you very much thank you all right let's move on show you and support the review committee would you like to present your yeah i think i'm getting to read that out first first of all uh sorry right in fact i'm sorry uh myself and uh uh uh obviously based off on duty on the night shift we'd receive complaints regarding this this uh so this was on the 19th of october and that was roughly about what time we had uh we had a special customer with us and he did a purchase at 105 am where he was able to buy a single bottle of uh kines export um the premises license um was only until 10 30 in the evening um so just after that myself and i've expressed i walked in um and the place was heaving slow to people with that um frustrating some tables uh found the the license holder i spoke to him asked him about what time his license was still uh and he said 12 o'clock so he was out he was unaware of what his license times were um i then went on to do a compliance check go for all these conditions on his license um and he had a number of failures on there um going on from there i asked for cctv um the main cctv camera that covered the main room was unplugged and it wasn't working um which when i'm asked for cctv to be produced choose a cctv but not complaints um subsequent requests for cctv were then not provided or small snippets were provided and not their times and the length of time that i'd ask for that the exact dates i'd asked for um so it was quite basic with cctv um there was things that have been poured inside into fresh drinks and he was claiming that they've been poured at half ten in the evening a couple of points you know they've refreshed it before it was there but the complaints that we the original reason we went there is i've been there from i started with the team in july and there was some noise complaints the time i visited the premises have been closed so i yeah like four in the afternoon i was going there so i sort of realized so i might need to make a later visit so i made that later visit regarding all those people outside urination and smoking and noise outside that's mainly in the evening times all right thank you yeah okay castle of task um just on your last point there about urination outside um the the premises does have a toilet doesn't it that's two yeah it is it's obliged to you they have a side door excuse me they have a cycle that opens onto king street and some of the cctv foot shows they're going out they're smoking and they're using it as a quick exit yeah well it's very small and quite not pleasant so it's probably more more pleasant to make the street which obviously i'm sorry but it affected the residents of my background it's quite a bit of waste issues and a lot of that area that strip came up in waste fighting and urination defecation yeah and stream there as well and originated from not just the longest but like in the whole area and i feel the other places i've been dealt with my license it's just so bad thank you and i will just go on on the the point of the license until 12 until midnight um how do you imagine the i mean maybe it's not a question for you really but how do you imagine the soldier was so confused about his license no idea um i understand it or it might be reported that i'm sort of done my homework and where are i just lost my hand ready to go and so i think he just and really looked at what his responsibilities were what conditions were surrounding the side of alcohol disregard and i haven't taken the trouble 43 okay this is the last paragraph of your statement uh have you got a date next time i've got two statements i can see that this is the middle point um 18 18. so yeah it's that one the little one so it says if you've got it on you i can read you i explained to mr fernando what you got it yeah okay thanks mr fernando if she stops there but you didn't check to see if you had actually done what you requested did you what uh we did we didn't return that that evening i don't think we did return that evening um yeah see it was closed later on the evening but i didn't really see the point of having that in sort of complied pretty much straight away a lot of these excuse me a lot of these customers left um with our presence and and they were quite hostile daughters to start off with but we got them out there and the door was locked once it was locked it's all this customer gone but people were turning up while we were there to come in and start drinking and partying and that was at 1am okay thank you very much um um so you um mentioned that you were asked to visit the premises due to a number of asb reports around how many times would you say that you were asked to um or it was reported to you about this noise and street donking um i think there was a flurry of complaints in april i say it was fourth i i where i'd started i was sort of part of my learning curve yeah getting used to licensing role which was to visit these places either unless i'd visit three or four times before that it's been closed so right okay so that's what i said you had to you started then going at later times as a residence obviously they live there they've seen it play in day out my work that was just yeah finished there four so right so you were there the night the test purchase happened um and that was uh pc mensa that went in now when he came out did you notice whether he was served by the license holder or the female waiting staff that was there he said he served him and but the license holder was on the premises at that time and allowed him to walk out with the purchase of forgiveness yeah so mr fernando was in the premises um and there was there was two female members of staff young member of staff they i didn't 18 but then she's been there since so i don't know who she is or how old she was it potentially was the daughter of the other waiting staff all right but we didn't really get too far into that okay it was only from cct that i saw the girl they were quite young and i would have questioned whether she was up after this yeah i couldn't prove that she looked that young for the interaction she could well have been just the only 20 year old all right um you said there was about 14 people in the premises were they all vertically drinking or were they seated majority were they were seated um but there was uh part of his conditions of his license of food with with there was a slice of onion on the table and some dirty plates and i don't get a slice of onion um and it appears that many people go there for a little bit of food and they just use it as a drink place and mr fernando produced some cctv because he claimed that he would go to the office and to bring alcohol to his premises and that's why they're there um but the box had all been uh it was quite um it was sagas or something that was the beer that they were drinking inside and that was a beer that he stocks and wine that he stocks right and then he produced cctv of a guy coming over with a bag of alcohol and he drunk outside but then didn't produce the other cctv that you initially asked for yeah um the at any time that you've visited the premises did you see people sitting and eating food um initially no there was some additional cctv that was sitting in people are being served food and then there's bowls with icing yeah lots of bottles of beer in there so afterwards yeah but at the time um oh so sorry i also went i can't remember the day i think it's my additional sort of statement i spoke to mr fernando about cctv and uh simultaneously after their hours had finished um yeah there's no food on the table at the time and it didn't give me enough time to get that cctv and you know probably look for it yeah and then you know something i requested he didn't produce so i can't go back and see food and that's the drink with it definitely after his hours okay thank you um you said that uh when you went there there was some people that were intoxicated okay well these are people intoxicated at the promises when you arrived or were these the people that came after and they were intoxicated there were people inside at the time at the time at the time can't save the people outside yeah i saw us standing there and went oh yeah so it was kind of we didn't really interact with those but the people that were inside um yeah slunk of alcohol slurring words um being hostile to myself from officer wagstaff so my next question to you is do you believe at any stage that the actual license holder was intoxicated i do believe that why um okay i think i asked him about four times for a document he kept getting distracted his eyes glazed he smelled of alcohol um and yeah he just kept i mean if you if you see body camera footage he's it's not really easy on his feet and he gets distracted very easily and it's not in the moment shall we say um um i just want to circle you if you go to page 15 of the university incident walk the record because i my eyesight's not that brilliant the last paragraph um and it says officer bagstaff and i entered but then after that it's kind of just a blur so just so that we're all clear on that last paragraph page page could you just read that out to us please i would the the bottom of the officer wagstaff and i in at the venue as we did i could confirm this was the source of the music the voices from the garden um i walked in and there were three males smoking outside my table to my left there were three males seat to my right two males and one female and one male seat to the table on the left the seat to the rear right table with two males one female there were open alcohol bottles glasses on every table the rear left table had full glasses slash pints of the iron i could see there was condensation built up the room was very warm which was cold i asked the manager and a female pointed to the rear right table i then approached the table and asked the manager asked for the manager a male came forward and said and i asked if he was the manager he confirmed he was and i asked what time his license was until he stayed at 12 o'clock midnight i've read his license before visiting and there was only licensed to sell alcohol from 2 p.m and the time was currently 01 17 two hours and 45 minutes after his license sale sale time about playing that the alcohol will be bought before his sales times had ended i know that the license had been to subcommittee here on 30 july 2022 where the opening hours will go up until 11 pm i understand this is free to pay drinks to finish any drinks i may have purchased before the license sale time 30 pm thank you shane that's fine so i just wanted it to to be clear because i couldn't uh did was you the one that provided the inspection sheet spo4 sped191 that's correct um it's kind of color kind of black and white and it doesn't kind of tell us anything because nothing's surfing or crossed out so um this is yeah this is a standard template for compliance visit so different premises will have different conditions some of them uh mainly off licenses would have the top boxes so is there an abv condition is there spirits you know a minimum bottle of spirit they can sell so it's more of a quick tick box for a visiting officer to to go through um and make notes and then really it's just almost like a correspondence for them we've been here i've spoke about this this is what we're looking at um not necessarily because so i started in july yeah i may have missed bits out but i still noticed other breaches of the license there's obviously a lot of stuff going on and it'll be quite dynamic doing these things and yeah you might not write down what you're noticing but it comes back to you as you're sitting back so you've got time to time to what's happened yeah sorry so in just a few examples felt test purchase set i think it's only 11 i can't i can't sit at the time on that um there's no food being served with 14 people inside um there was an off sale to um our test purchasing officer um there's no food served oh the phone number on the the front of the shop was a condition and that had a digit missing off of it um and then cctv camera wasn't working and the the main camera was broken but then it's just a case of being plugged back in so i'm not sure why that the main camera the only bit that's going to show last is productivity is going to be unplugged yeah just ask one question yes when you went in there you said that there was no food on the table did you check to see if the kitchen was being used at all did you remember i'll be honest there was where there was obviously a confrontation with the customers and we didn't go out okay we could hear the staff went out the back and on the subsequent visits i'd been out back and and i can only assume there was kitchen staff in there you smell any food or anything i know you didn't go well thank you thank you thank you so um if we followed the agenda it would have been um pussy matter uh messer and he gave his witness statement which we've all read and we're quite happy with that so i can influence you in thank you yeah i wish to submit a representation of the review application made by newham licensing regarding 297 barking road e13 8pq the ground prevention of property disorder the professional public loosens license number is 22 01522 lapre so the premises license sale about performance of the performance of recording music between the hours of 12 midday and 22 22 30 hours monday to sunday the premises opening hours on between midday and 11 pm monday to sunday please note that the premises has had a previous enforcement visit by a local authority licensing officer in may 2024 where most of the same breaches of the conditions were identified on saturday the 19th of october 2024 at around oh and under hours police and council licensing officers attended the location the lights were on with people stood outside the premises should have closed at 11 pm we have strong evidence that supports breaches for the licensing acts namely an mg11 from pc mentor which i exhibit as iaw2 and also body worn video exhibit iaw1 a compliance visit was conducted several patrons were seen to be heavily intoxicated and some of them had what appeared to be freshly poured pints of lager with them the licensee stroke dps was present and the breaches of the license were pointed out to him he stated that the patrons were very slow drinkers and the sounds of alcohol had been prior to 11 pm he denied the sale of alcohol a few minutes earlier the patrons were verbally abusive in portuguese to both police and council licensing officers which he ignored more customers in at the premises unchallenged by the licensee he was advised to tell his patrons that he was clothed and that they should leave customers left the premises and remain talking about the outside for some time there is a timeline of five months during which the license holder has clearly not taken any remedial action to improve the way that he operates the premises in order to promote before licensing please consider it is very unlikely that additional robust condition being imposed on the license will have any impact on his behavior please consider that taking no action is not a viable option in this instance so therefore with with respect we request the committee to consider the location of the license in this instance thank you we've also read your witness statement which i don't think we need you to read out because it's almost replica to to um shayla's one um have you got any questions for um only regarding the type of asb was there violence as well that has been recorded related to this so i've contacted the same for a neighbor's sergeant and he hasn't really got too much anti-social behavior in that area he's got a bit of drug dealing around the corner but i can't contribute to the fish premises but actual asb for that area i think it's quite hard and what about the residents who may have complained because you said i think when we said there were small complaints down i think that they've come to us yeah they haven't come to you no okay so just um asb complaints quite low safe neighborhoods have not really reported anything but when you went in there on that night of the compliance check did you feel intimidated because we read in one of the reports that someone was putting their hands on your coat to cover your your body camera so as we went in as we walked towards the premises there were a couple of guys outside and then we sort of walked in and then my first observation was there was two glasses of red wine on the table inside those guys were outside then come in and they're the guys that sat there um and then obviously we then spoke to mr fernando and he said he was closed at the same time the young lady that shane's mentioned come out and put another pot of red wine on his table and then she's just all lies he was like no i'll close at 12. then we come back and we stood at the front of the shop and then obviously i was recording and there was these two guys just kind of sitting down looking one's blowing me kisses and i'm just sort of looking at him um and he says feel it to put up which basically means some of a bitch in portuguese yeah um then he sort of stood up walked towards me he was unsteady on his feet he just looked and he just went recording i'll smash you and then like you know do you want to come outside and it's like and then this other great big guy he come over and then he was he was massively intoxicated and he kept pulling my coat over my camera which didn't really matter everything that we've got is there isn't it but and this was at one o'clock in the morning just gone one and they were in that state at that time yeah and then other people just kept walking in and then we had to tell him right you're going to tell these people you're close because these people are just walking in here like that's normal yeah like that he's always at that time um and then he sort of rung some little bells and he said five minutes drinking up it was like five minutes drinking up was like two hours it's just ludicrous we said they're trying to smoke deep up well then pine still added bubbles between two hours later they'd have been more stable statement thing so more lies um so i'm just going to put it to you i take it that you support the previous evidence provided by the licensing team and um pc mensa um because as i said it literally duplicates each other you couldn't get them more closer um so again just for the record um you support the evidence and you do not you just you still wish for verification yes please okay um the was she the gentleman that's um asked for the sorry corresponds with mr fernando regarding emails for various different footage or was it you shane sorry can i just swap back over um shane he did you said he produced some footage but the one that the three that you wanted were they for the was you looking for the opening of closing times or for this extra sales about or was it both it was it was for both really um so i'd already looked at some footage um and i assumed by this being a normal thing that he's open later i asked for footage uh in september uh so on 22nd of october i asked for 28th and 29th of september 2220 to 0200 um i asked for the fifth and the fourth and fifth of october same times 11th and 12th october at same times and mr fernando said that his cctv memory didn't go back that far but it was within the 31 days which should be right it only went back days right so the day that even it wasn't actually recording it was recorded it was recorded but he didn't have memory going back going back so when i asked for additional footage within that 31 days he wasn't able to produce it that then on my second visit there that then changed to oh no it was just that camera working um i do have a memory of that but it still didn't produce those dates i'd ask for so i asked for again i'm thinking he's still operating late at night um i asked for additional dates which i've got that in double printed and email and there was some additional files for which included the 20 25th 26th and 27th i can't remember it's october and i've never got him right in and it did produce that and a memory stick eventually um and it was only from 11 o'clock till midnight on those days but i put this and recorded on my phone where he'd been thrown after his hours and going until 3am monday which i think was the 27th okay all right that's fine thank you so i just wanted to kind of marry up with the dash with the armor and yeah with the body cam and the cctv footage fine thank you i've got no more further questions for you but shane again you still um are asking for verification yeah thank you very much um councilor vaughan any questions for pc back stuff yes looking up the last for roughly page 27 of the agenda where there seems to be lots of um behavior also what you would expect how long did that last while we were in time yes because it seems to be now moving around the customers and the licensee and and you'll sell to be a person so and we seem to be some discussion hard when it's taking place so how long did that feel to tell you we were in there for a good half an hour to an hour i suppose um but the more sort of we stood in there and then these basically these two guys were getting more and more and more yeah better word um it was just a few blown kisses and then they sort of stood up then come towards us and then it was a little bit and then jane ended up going outside and sort of saying she'd be quiet yes um so that was only a matter of minutes so five ten minutes of interaction with those guys but they're not they wasn't that intoxicated you're wasting your time there's no point in trying to engage with people like that it's another planet and you were there and the customers left the privacy yeah yeah we're satisfying in what how do you handle the situation oh yeah more than yeah because they've gone outside it could have turned off if you'd have engaged with them or sort of like said anything back to them it would only end one way and that's in a roll round i'm not going to get involved with that with a licensing colleague from you know thank you very much thank you yes thank you and just follow up on that what was the reaction of the mr fernando the license order he kind of stood in the door doing absolutely nothing so he didn't say to them stop here he didn't sort of take control of anything just let him do when the people was walking in we was like you're concerned you're closed he just looked a lot ding-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling drinking up five minutes did he look intimidated by them or just not bothered yeah not bothered okay thank you any questions for police there was nothing you'd like to add joe all right thank you very much um okay so we are going to go and have a conversation so we're going to adjourn and don't go too far and we won't give that decision today um this meeting is