Subject Overview and Scrutiny Committee 3 - Monday, 22nd April, 2024 16:00
April 22, 2024 View on council website Watch video of meeting or read trancriptTranscript
I'm gonna move on to item 6, information report for note-in, quarter 3, performance 23, 24. An information report regarding quarter 3, performance 23, 24 was provided. Members asked to note the information in the report. Yeah, we're going to move the report. You don't need to move in Lucy. Group me. I moved here. Do I need to move? Do I need to move? I can get my microphone and the report is for noting. So the effort could be moved please. Okay, Graham, move it. Do you move Graham? Yes, it is. Thank you. Do I be second? Let's have a second. Okay, thank you very much. Okay, that's been noted. We want to item 7, forward work program. I will ask 15 officers to present the report. Please, sorry. Sorry. Thank you. I jumped in. Okay. The following on from members consideration of the forward work program at the previous meeting, the forward work program for this committee is attached to the appendix A. The soft forward work programs will be included in the next report to cost with any updates from each meeting included. The recommendations monitoring action sheet is attached to the appendix B to track responses to committee's recommendations of the previous meeting. I'll hand back to the chair for me questions for members. Okay, any questions for members? Come to steam bleeds or please. Thank you chair two points for myself. I unfortunately had to leave the last meeting early so I didn't get to stay. I think this is going to be quite a nice brief one actually today, isn't it? It's quite and not in keeping for us. One of the better ones, but I noticed from this, I'm desperately trying to scroll down and scroll down that we have a proposal to. Screw tonight. No, it's not. Okay, fundamental housing update 30th of September, 2024. Can I please ask whether I'm going to get an answer to my section on 106 money and before then, because I've been waiting for 18 months for that. And I know I've raised it with you a couple of times, but I've still not had a response to that. Okay. And the other issue that I wanted to raise was in our committee over the last two years. We have scrutinized the regeneration proposals for Portugal. We have a proposal for the 15th of July to scrutinize the Valley's regeneration strategy. I have asked in the past and it's still not on there to scrutinize the regeneration of Bridgette town center. Okay, thank you. We've done both call. We've done the valleys. We still haven't done Bridgette. Okay. But in the pre meeting, we mentioned other items you might want to put on the forward work program. Hi, was mentioned, I got comes to practice the community, but I was mentioned, it was, I can't remember the other one now, but someone will remind me I'm sure comes to practice please. Yeah, thank you chair. Yeah, I think we should be should look at highways. I think we need a whole set of review of highway so it's a big, it's a big department, but, you know, one of those. I mean, especially if we haven't looked at it from, you know, since 2022. I mean, definitely. Sorry, just looking down with Councilor Clark's permission. I know she wanted to bring in the empty homes if we're looking at housing on 30 September. I mean, it's entirely up to council. If she wants to make it a separate thing, but could you. Is it possible to add the empty homes into that unless of course, Councilor Clark wants to have it as a completely separate topic. It may be part of that make it, you know, the empty homes and how was in his all as much, pretty much the same thing we need to find that out, I guess, do we. Yeah, I want to ask for it specific, I mean, if Councilor Clark wants to, sorry, Councilor Clark wants to discuss it specifically, I think it would be important that we insist that that is a topic of discussion. Let me, let me, let me bring Councilor Clark in and do another speaking for speaking for you. I'm sure she can tell this, because the clock was worth your opinion. Yes, chair, you know, looking, obviously looking down, I saw housing updates and I thought it would slot in there very, very well. Yeah. But I think we need to be specific that we want that included in the housing update as well. That's what we would also advise you in the premium to be specific and what we meet on the bones as I described so what's going to be in there so that can definitely be in there. Yeah, definitely. Martin Morgan's will be presenting that no doubt you see really and. Yeah, we want to know how many empty homes there are in the county borough, you know, how many have been brought into you since the last report to count to scrutiny. Et cetera, et cetera, you know, all that stuff here because we got the policy, you see, and we know there was empty housing policy and there's grants available all all on that topic basically isn't it. And how it's how it's progressing because it is in place that already isn't it is something that's actually up and running. Okay, thank you. Okay. Thank you. Can I do my report come on a second. Yeah. Thank you. No, I was just going to say, the, is that definitely something that we can, that we can go up in the planning meetings. I think possibly. It's, I think it could. If the housing report could possibly be a large one. And I think the empty homes might be a shared service, but we could possibly combine them. If that's what the committee would like, but that's definitely something we can discuss at the planning meeting and get all the information in. What's the data is planning meeting fresh it. My memory and for the committees. To know as well. Do we know. There was me on second chair. Yeah. Don't worry. For you. So the housing updated down to the 30th of September. No, the planning, the planning meeting, you talk about that. Sorry, I apologize. Sorry. Um, but no, I haven't got a date for the planning meeting yet. But as soon as we've got that, definitely, we can discuss in that meeting. Okay, but I'll be brought up in the planning meeting, what's been said today now so we can, we can go through it. And then we'll crew may have to drop something off. The problem is we was told in the, we have to drop something off the list to get how you is on right. That's the problem, isn't it? You know, we're, what, which, what do we take off? If we need to get that on. Is that, is that a consideration we need to make today? Any thoughts on that? I haven't got the different people on us. But you can kind of watch for the hands and things differently now. So. Yeah, can we call it? Yeah. Just to say sorry to jump. You asked for your opinions on this particular topic. Yeah. So I thought the reason we were talking about this topic in terms of future work is because we were actually looking for topics, not that we wanted to prioritize topics. Well, what I didn't think we had an issue. Thank God. What's happening here now is we bring it up topics, which we are agreeing on here. They, in the fall program and meeting I have with, with, with Janine, because obviously you have to have a report coming out. You can't just dream it up. You know, we'll have one next week. We can't do that. So we've got to sit down and look what we got coming, what's coming out. And, you know, they may, we may not be able to have that with, you know, we can ask for it and push for it because it hasn't been such a long time. But that's the difficulty, you know, we're going to sort of juggle what we've got, you know, and, you know, and, so we may have to go on the back. So, you know, we have a report on that, you know, that's, that's sort of thing. And that's the conversation we do having those meetings, basically, with the director and I think, I think the cabinet members, it's all about what's coming and what's what we can do, you know. So it's not a matter of saying we want X, Y, Z, it didn't work, it didn't work like that. I'm for you. Come on in, Williams, go back to the list. You come in. Yeah, thank you, Chair. Just with regard to highways completely support that. We got way late then, but I think in the pre meeting we usually ask for scope. So to my mind, it would repair maintenance and network management. And by network management, I would include, you'd understand that, of course, chair, but I would include the management of utilities and all the rest of it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Chair, exactly what Catherine Martin Williams has said, but I also think we ought to perhaps take some time, not necessary today to come up with a number of metrics that we would like to be presented around length of time. It takes to affect and repair to, you know, a pot hole or whatever it might be, and length of time to close referrals. So it's, it's, it's more than just the, perhaps the internal metrics that they might use to measure themselves, but more reflected on the kind of measures that we see as important as well. So, you know, we're there to scrutinize, but part of that scrutiny has to be about, you know, what is it residents want us to be asking questions about, because I'm sure some of the internal metrics won't be ones that we necessarily want. So whether we have to schedule some time to come up with a list of those metrics or we submit one or two to Lucy over the coming, you know, few weeks, but I think we need to go down that road. If you'll forgive. Thanks. Okay, thank you. Please, please. Yeah, thank you chair. Firstly, for my longer serving colleagues and I don't know if it's right when we were talking and you were talking about the firstly, the housing, etc. The relationship obviously within BC BC and values to cost. I've come across a problem and I'm trying to decipher it and all I'm getting is what's agreement is where we have properties in my valley that again over to another organization. A home has been empty, just for my colleagues and almost been empty now we come on two years, it's been completely repurposed. And I have a number of people in the valley would benefit significantly from this accommodation. I've since found out that this accommodation is obviously still empty and it's been allocated to another housing organization. I was completely unaware of that and I'd like to clarify that or whether we could bring it that in and what it could be raised under the housing subject them. Can't we email Martin Morgan's asking them that question because we can answer with new. Yeah, when I take your advice, I'll try all that system again. Yeah. We've got options and you've got these deals with you know with supply, you know, with providers and things and they is all, you know, as well as where you go in that's all I think. All I come back is not in detail is that both from VTC VTC you said we have an agreement with BC BC, etc. And we are instructed to allocate some of our housing stock to third party like the Wallace and and all things like that. Of course the residents don't know. Not only that. It's in the predominantly the area, which is going to say the residents are all elderly. And it could have repercussions. But I'll try that then. And how was the options for the next thing. Sorry on the highway section. You know, would it be prudent again because I really like to know as I mentioned before, where this extra £2 million because we in the second year now. There was 4 million extra on resurfacing, and I cannot get a cast in answer of, yes, we have spent this on that particular project. I don't mind where you spend in the county better because that the county better as a whole that's we operate. And each one should be prioritised and taken in turn. Okay. But I can't see your vote where the 2 million per annum, which is now 4 million has been spent on road resurfacing. So I'd like that. The last thing I'm concerned about is the ever increasing system that in my view mind so I apologise to my colleagues if we don't feel the same is the system is being geared to remove officers further and further away from the counsellors. Now we used to use to go obviously have a phone number and you could contact your officer, given the data to the ring you back, but now you we may live. Phil, I don't think that's something you can discuss. I mean to remove. I know, but we can't discuss that. No, we don't know. We don't know. We don't want to say. Can't put it on a forward work program. How do we direct that as a counsellor to be. Well, what would it come in now? All right. I leave that chair in the interest. I would say we all agree what you say in but yeah what I would get in there and I'm sure. We're becoming more and more remote every day. I know. It's easier sit down with a pop and I've done that with him than that. Right, okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you. I'd like to see him actually come and talk to us and I'm an interactive discussion, both some of the practices in that organization. I've been before counsel before that one day come and give me a call. I thought a reasonable question, reasonable way. And I didn't get a reasonable answer and I wasn't alone in that. So I'd appreciate that. And also in terms of the online portal comes to Jenkins is right. We all know it doesn't help and needs to be looked at. The point I came in for was regarding DFG. I raised this in the pre meet. I'm confused as to the forms indicate in the attached document, which to me contradicts the report that was brought before the last but when governance and audit meeting. So I would like to see it. And it was a it was agreed at that meeting that the next report would go to a scrutiny meeting. It wasn't specified which one, but it would be one of them. So I put my own for a DFG report. Thank you. I'm sure did DFG once didn't mean it was he three yet. Yeah, we've done that. I know we're going to win a little bit a while back, but we did definitely get a Martin Morgan is being there. Yeah, so many of definitely. So can I come back and yeah, we did, but they changed the format of the report then. So the last report, as I say, before covenance and all, covenance and audit was. I, it was praised as being a good report. I disagreed with that. And as I say, it seems to contradict the performance indicators in the attached document, hence my concern. Thanks. Thank you Colin. Thanks to clarity. Thank you. Close the bed. So, please. I don't know how do you think up a little bit. Yeah, I have to disappear soon as well. So I will be brief. The, the only thing I'd like I've raised my two issues already, but the other thing I'd like to raise is I'm looking at the forward work program. Every single meeting has one report. One agenda item. I watch other. I'm the sad person. I watched the other scrutiny committees. They have multiple reports. Well, I'm not fun. I'm not. Today's reports me extremely sure, but some of the ones you know, it's like we, and we got this four o'clock start and I like that and I like this this way that we focus on that one report and do it justice because I think with multiple reports comes a bit. So I don't think then they give them justice. They just, they're skimming through them because it's time and so all it ended up from nine o'clock in the morning to happens three in the afternoon in the civic, you know, that's when everyone's complaining about that then so you can't really win, you know. I just want to find, I want to find the balance that because you're right. We could have. I don't know the skin, but we're also, we're also missing other opportunities as well. Because I, you know, they must, they must be occasions where we can fit two reports. Yes, rather than one every meeting tonight would be an example of that. But we'd have to read it through them a bit quicker than we do. So I'm saying, you know, we did I do let it go on quite a lot because we got the time of me to look into that report. That's my only concern with it with I'm into, you know, but again, the officer think he's too reasonably short reports and it could be, yeah, no reason why not, isn't it? But you know, we'd have to get along and make progress and, you know, free to report with me. Is that fair. I'll have to give my apologies and go to present them cancel. Thank you for another positive and productive meeting chair. Thank you. Great, great, good, better. Councillor MELLEA was last but not least. Oh, bless you. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, my name was again round the PIs and that and especially in this particular directorate, because I have a concern that around sickness in the authority, because this will actually contribute to this decision-making process in this directory should sit sickness continue to increase, which it is evident in the reports that we've received, it is increasing, and any decisions we have to make going forward as to how we want to procure or actually take services in house. I think this is dealt with in costs, I think the sickness and they don't even go through all that stuff, you know, with the corporate office committee. They do, but I did raise it earlier on, and I just think I do have a concern because in our communities, directorate, sorry Chair, communities is on the increase, and I want to understand, you know, what are the processes, how do we manage the sickness within the authority. I'm going to ask Lucy to make sure that's raised now in the meeting planning meeting I go to, and I'm going to ask the vice of the director and the cabinet member director really isn't it, you know. Is that something we can deal with as a committee here or would it go, you know, to corporate or whatever, I'm not quite sure we're not going to be honest, but it's a valid point to do with communities. And also there is no target for absence. So therefore if there is no target, how do we know what success looks like. It's like you can't measure it. You can't measure it so and you know it is decreasing, not decreasing, it's increasing sickness is increasing all the time, and that's a major concern. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, I got no further indications so I'm going to move on now to, let me just speak to speak to to me first. You see, you're okay with that now we are going to say before you move on. No, thank you chair I've made a note and, and I will also set up the planning meeting. Yeah, if you can bring those and refresh my memory of certainly of what they were because I want to remember them all I'm written them down so if that's okay thank you very much. Okay, I can move on to item eight urgent items. I have no urgent items. Is anybody got anything urgent they want to bring up. Okay so, on that happy note, it is now 1752 or 7053 it's just gone on too sorry. I'm just going to say now with the AGM coming up in May. I may or may not be chair is committee that point because obviously every every year changes. I'm hoping I hope I am but you never know. It's been wonderful working with the wall and I let us see you now in May, or I will see what I'm doing to the center. Thank you much for your tenders this evening. You see, thank you too. Thank you all. Okay, see you all right when you have a new pair of glasses. All right, well then. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks so much. Thank you. Ta-da!
Transcript
welcome everybody welcome all to this subject overview and
script committee 3 meeting which is being held virtually with
committee members and officers accessing the meeting from
remote locations. The meeting is being recorded and will be
available via the council website to be viewed
subsequently. Should I as chair experience any technical
difficulties during the meeting? Council Colin Davis has stepped
in and take over temporarily as chair in my absence. And in his
absence then Councillor again Walter will step in. Please
get everyone ensure that mobile phones are switched off or
to silent mode. Members will have received an electronic copy
of the agenda and I will ask the officers to present a brief
summary of the key points. For the record, the agenda can be
viewed on the council's website. Officer the members are
reminded to refer to the page numbers contained in the public
version of the agenda report park. Members and officers will
be speaking at various points during the meeting and those
speaking may switch on their microphones at that point. But I
would ask that with the exception of myself as chairperson
at all of the times you keep your microphones switched off as
this will help to minimise any background noise and interference.
However, I would invite members and officers to leave their
cameras on for the duration of the meeting as agreed in the
recent full council meeting. If any members and officers wish
to raise a point or question they should click the raise hand
icon at the top right hand side of the Microsoft Teams window
or I'll come to you in the order I receive requests. In the
instant messaging chat button has been disabled for this
meeting. Please do not use your microphones until I invited you
to do so. Also officers with scrutiny will be supporting
the meeting and will be monitoring the use of microphones
throughout this duration and where necessary will move to
those not being used. I would ask officers to introduce
themselves when I invite them to speak during the course of
the meeting. They too should ensure microphones are switched
off when not in use. We're now proceed to the agenda.
Item one, apologies for absence.
Thank you chair. I've received apologies for absence from
Councillor Mike Kern, Council William Kendall and
Councillor Ian Williams will be leaving the meeting at 530
at 4pm. I have Councillor Stephen Bledsoe, please.
Good afternoon chair. I'll need to leave at around about
five to six for a Bridgetn Town Council meeting.
Thank you. Councillor Graham Water.
Thanks chair. Likewise, I need to leave the meeting at six
to attend the meeting. Thank you. Thank you.
Councillor John Spanswick.
I just try in the train and it's just won't come on. Don't
worry. This morning, but it's no failing. So my apologies
I do have a little camera. Okay. That's the reason you're
as your hands up for John, let's know. Was it?
Okay, there's no more hands up. I will now we want to
item two decorations of interest. If any member has an
interest to declare in any matter on the agenda, please
click on the right hand icon and I will come to you in tune
for you to declare your interest.
Councillor Jonathan Pratt, please.
Yeah, thank you chair. Not so much a declaration of interest
but much like full council last week as this is remote.
My daughter is expected to be home at five o'clock. So with
your permission chair, if I turn my camera off, it's because
my daughter wants to say hello to everyone. So if you don't
mind, chair, hopefully it doesn't happen.
That's fine. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Pratt and
Councillor Stephen Besso's again. Is it all legacy?
Yeah, no, no. Thank you chair. I notice on agenda item.
Sorry, I'm working on two screens. I do apologize.
On item six in relation to the quarter three performance.
There are aspects in that report which relate to the housing
sector and homelessness and the private rented sector.
I don't know where the conversation is going to go towards
but if it does go towards the PRS, then I need to declare
that I'm in full paid employment from the National
Residential Landloads Association and would need to
carefully decide whether I need to leave the meeting at
that point or not. But I'll see where the conversation goes
chair. No problem. Thank you.
I don't see any.
Any further hands? I'm going to move on to item three approval
in the minutes. Please can I have a move on second after the
minutes of 25th of September 2023.
Anybody? I'll move chair.
Thank you, Councillor Pratt. Seconder.
Second.
I'm going to come to Williams.
Clear second. Move on a seconder for the minutes from the
19th of March 2024, please.
I'll move.
Thank you.
Seconder.
I'll second.
Thank you.
On the extraordinary meeting held on the 26th of March 2024.
Happy to move chair.
Thank you.
Seconder. Anybody? I'll second.
Thank you Ian. Thank you very much.
What's the Williams I mean? Sorry, apologies.
I have a great job that comes to the prat actually seconded.
Okay, I was minding.
Thank you.
I move on swiftly on then to item four, the Kaira heat scheme,
please.
I will now ask officers to briefly introduce the report.
I will then call up members to vindicate.
They wish to speak by clicking on the raise hand icon in
tune.
Okay, thank you.
Are we going to call in the office or do you need this year's
year?
Yes, thank you, chair.
If you're happy, I'll just give a very quick introduction
to the report this afternoon.
So thank you very much scrutiny for inviting us along to the
session.
My name is Jeanine Nightingale, corporate director of
communities with a recording.
I'm also joined by a couple of my officers.
Scrutiny.
I'm joined by a young Sherwood and Paul Smith.
And we also also have Alex.
Aleister Wilcox with us today and he's from Maplecone and
they are the companies have done some of the evaluation of
this project for us.
So we are all here to answer any queries that you have when we
get to the end of this report.
So what I will do, chair, if you don't mind, is just give a
very short introduction and then I might hand over to to
Aleister to see whether there's anything that he would like
to add and then we can go to any questions, chair, if you're
comfortable with that?
Yeah, thank you.
Go on.
So, so scrutiny.
The Cairo heat scheme was a highly, highly innovative
project back.
It started back in 2016 and it really was a first for the
UK.
This hadn't been done before.
It was to look at demonstrating if we could the use of
heat from water that was within flooded former coal mine
work-ins and to see whether we could use that heat to provide
a resource for properties in Cairo.
So using that heat and then a heat pump to provide a district
heat network.
Why was Cairo chosen for us in Bridget?
Well, because it's an area that's got a high area fuel
property and also because of the predominant sort of mine
working.
There was quite a lot of work done back in 2016 to identify
which area would be would be best.
So this project was primarily funded by Welsh government
and the European Union funding from from Wefo.
It cost circa three million.
We spent when we finished the project.
And of this only 10% was matched fund funded by BCBC.
And actually we matched funded it by staff that were involved
in the project as opposed to to a match with costs.
So we matched with staff.
I think we paid about 65,000 in revenue.
So the majority of this project was funded funded for us.
Now, unfortunately, despite our best efforts and I say
this because when I joined back in 2020, we'd already been
working on this for a number of years and we were looking at
energy efficiency and ways to decrease fuel poverty for some
time up in Cairo.
So we spent another two or three years working on this project,
but despite all our efforts to make this work and it was a
demonstrator project, we did have some real difficulties with
land assembly in areas in Cairo and also delivering what
had to be at the time a commercially viable project.
Now, there were a number of things as a result of that,
not least this project had to break even, of course, but
also one of the things that was incredibly difficult for us
was that the Welsh government were insisting that we paid
business rates for this scheme.
That was incredibly difficult to afford as well as other things.
So it just meant that the model, the financial model just
didn't break even.
So we spoke to our colleagues at Wefo.
We decided that the project had to cease at that point.
It doesn't mean we will never look at my water again in Cairo,
but it just means at that point in time, we weren't able to
take the project any further forward.
So section 3.1 of the report sets out in detail.
All the work that we've done and what we've put together is
we've we didn't want to finish the project and not have any
outcome.
So what we've agreed with the funders was to have what we
call a mindwater heat toolkit
and it takes all of the
very, very detailed learning over those years and puts them
together. So other local authorities, for instance, up in
the North of England, et cetera, where they have mindwater
there in old coal mines, they can look to use these to see
whether a project would be suitable in their areas.
So section 3.1 of the report sets out this toolkit that we've
put together and we've just gone live for other local authorities
to use and a small number of local authorities have started
accessing it actually and have started conversing with us
about what should they do if they wanted to progress a project.
Use me.
And then what we also wanted to do to make sure that we got this
right was to have an independent evaluation of the
project to ensure that we've gone down every avenue and that
the toolkit that we've prepared showed all the lessons
that we've learned and that is set out in section 3.2 of the
report and that is where Alistair is with us today.
scrutiny should you wish to to probe him further on that.
But what we wanted to do was before this was probably the
last time we'll ever bring this project into the into a public
forum like this. So we wanted to give you an opportunity because
I know a lot of you, if you're new members from the last
administration, wouldn't have had an opportunity to see a report
such as this or have the opportunity to question this
project. So it has now closed, but we wanted you to have this
opportunity today and then to see whether you can make any
recommendations for us if you feel there are some when we start
to look at these innovative projects in the future if we if
we ever do. What I will say is that when this project started
back in 2016, we were in a very different place financially and
this project was fully funded. I'm not sure there is money to
this magnitude available now to to go for innovative projects
like this going forward, whether we'll get the chance to do
that again. I don't know. But if you have any recommendations
you could come forward with. We would gratefully receive them.
What we intend to do today is to give you an honest and open
account of what happened with that project. We launched the
questions here today about the Chiron mine water. No problem
at all. So before I hand over back to you, Chair, I wonder
whether Alistair thinks that there's anything that he could
contribute at this point or whether maybe it's better to leave
Alistair to answer questions. Alistair, are you there, please?
Yes, indeed, Janine. I'm here. Thank you. Yes. Is there anything
you'd like to contribute at this point? At this particular
moment, I don't think so. No, I think you've summarized that
very well. So I'll leave it to questions if that's okay with
you. Wonderful. Thank you for that. So we'll pass back to you
then, Chair, to see if there's any questions from the committee.
Thank you. Thank you, Janine. Thanks for the reports. Thank
you very much. First, Councillor indicating is Councillor
Philip Jenkins, please.
Yes, good afternoon, Director. Good afternoon. I'm just looking
at what you meant, and obviously this is a posthumous type of
scheme we're looking at now on how it came about, et cetera.
But I'm looking back obviously on the records all the weekend.
The government, the Welsh government, back under Leslie Griffiths
and was awarded under the heading of the Cairo scheme.
Six, I think, is 6.5 million pound on a total of 9.4
million pound. I appreciate, as you said, now we are in a totally
different financial market as we were those years ago.
Could you tell me, you know, what happened to the rest of that
money, or where is it, or was it a whale's wide? Because the
report that I read mentions particularly the Cairo water
extraction scheme. And that mentioned actually 6.5
million pounds of funding for that with a total of 9.4.
I'm also concerned that the although we've only spent in both
officer time and staff time and contrary contribution, nearly
400,000 pounds. Given that scheme, I've been a lay person
over the weekend. I found out 90% of what is in this small
report. I gather it's a small report and I would imagine it's
in much more detail with the officers. So I will concede to
that. But, you know what I mean? Even back then, one would
have thought it was an initiative, as you said. And even
today, the ordinance survey people along with British coal
mining authority rather, said it is a proven technology at the
moment. But I would have thought that perhaps the ground work
on our contribution before entering into something like
this should have been done beforehand because, you know, back
then, as you said, it would financially different schemes
or we were in a financially different climate. But even
that should have allowed us to made a decision. But then, as I
was not present, obviously in the authority to either think
whether these schemes are feasible or not. And going
forward, if we were to go forward in the future, because
there is merit in it, as you say, of course, it's merit in it.
And to look at the other schemes that are operating throughout
England and Wales, with the estimated coal authority and
ordinance survey saying six million homes can benefit now
from this type of heat scheme as it is, on over 300,000
businesses and offices are situated directly in and around
and over, just use mines that have the water. So I think
there will come a time where we will look at it again. But my
question really is how much of the money was there altogether?
There was a 9.4 million and 65 million allocated to Kaira. If so,
we were only showing a total of just over 200 million pound
being spent on it. Janice? So.
Yeah, there was a larger amount. Council Jenkins, can I just
correct you here, though? We spent 2.9 million, not 200 million,
as you just said. No, no, no, no, don't worry. Just in case
you're quilted. We'll come back. I apologize for that. Yeah,
yeah, indeed. Yeah, so 2.9 million. We, this was a
demonstrator project. So at the outset, there were many
questions and answered. For instance, where would we find
the water? And we had geological surveys. We had the coal
authority working with us. We had Cardiff University working
with us. And at one point, we had to do a borehole 200 meters
into the ground to get to the water. So we spent on now because
nobody from the outset would be able to say that this was
completely feasible or not. And that's why this was a
demonstrator project to try and demonstrate that it was because
nobody knew how far you'd have to bore down what water would be
there and whether it was feasible to extract it. That was
what the whole idea of this project was. So that's why it was
funded to that degree, but we only spent 2.9. And then we
decided when we had that information available to us and
not all of that was on the mineboard. I'm going to bring
in shortly to give you a breakdown of some of that spend was
for some other things within properties in Cairo. So what
was important is that once we knew that the scheme could not
be financially viable, it was better that we stopped at that
point. Now, that's not to say moving forward, we can't
revisit this because at the time prices of gas and electricity
were quite low and the cost of the minewater was higher than
the cost of gas and electricity in, for instance, in the
primary school. So at one point, the primary school were
reticent to swap to groundwater because it would cost them
more, even though it was a sustainable form of heating.
That may be very different now. And we also had situations
where our colleagues at Welsh government wanted to levy
business rates on the scheme and the cost of that made the
scheme very unaffordable and other elements. Now, in
England, things like hydro schemes, hydro water schemes
don't pay business rates because some of these schemes
are such that they don't generate enough profit to be able to
pay a business rate. So what we tried to do was lobby our
colleagues at Welsh government to say to them, look, this is an
innovative scheme. To get us away, is there a possibility to
have an exemption and it wasn't, I'm afraid, at that point in
time. Now, should that policy change, should we get to that
position in the future, and should the prices of gas
and electricity stabilize, should the technology become cheaper
to implement, then we might be able to revisit this and it
might be able to break even. What we couldn't do as a local
authority was to subsidise this going forward. That wouldn't be
right. It had to at least wash his face going forward. And
to be fair, it was, unfortunately, there was all of that
money to spend to implement it. We did have that money, that
grant money there to implement it. Now, the staff
salaries that we much funded, we were paying those staff anyway,
Councillor Jenkins. So those staff were doing environmental
schemes. It wasn't that we had to spend 400,000, those staff
worked on this project and we were allowed to match you, not
always are allowed to match, but in this occurrence we were allowed
to match fund stuff to that grant. But I don't know whether that
gives you some assurances there, because it was a very short
report. We have done previous cabinet reports, which have got
a bit more detail in, but if I can bring in Paul Smith, maybe Paul
can answer or provide a little bit more detail on some of the
spend and the finances and the grants. If I may, Chair.
Yeah, go ahead, Paul.
Okay, thank you. I think I guess the first point to make is that
the two pieces of information that were important.
Paul, could you introduce yourself first, please?
Oh, very sorry, Chair. Paul Smith, I'm the Decarbonisation
Program Manager at Progen Council. And I will caveat this
with saying that this project is before my time when you've been
at the Council for a couple of years, but I've kind of led the
delivery of the toolkit element of this project and I posted the
decision to not go ahead with the capital build.
So just to pick up where I left off then, the two key pieces
of information with this sort of project are understanding the
amount of heat that is available from the resource, so the
flooded mines in this case, and also the level of demand that
you'd have from your customers, that would be the homes in
Cairo and the businesses in the school.
So as Janine said, there was a borehole sunk, which isn't,
it's not a cheap activity to undertake, so I'm not sure the
exact cost of swap my head, but it's probably approaching 10%,
if not more of that ERDF grant some that's there.
The other part of that then is the understanding of demand with
in Cairo, so the majority of that Welsh government grant was
around surveying homes in Cairo to understand the energy demand
and also then leaving in some energy company obligation funding
to improve the energy efficiency, replace boilers, that kind of
thing in a significant number of homes in Cairo.
So those were, those are two quite large items of spend.
Then there was also quite a lot of consultancy work, so looking
at bringing in a private wire connection from a nearby wind farm,
so there's quite a lot of technical and electrical engineering
activity around that, and that was actually proven to be a
really good way of reducing the running costs for the project,
and that's applicable to anywhere else that's able to connect
directly into a wind farm.
I think that's probably, probably at Janine, is that?
Could I just come back here then?
I appreciate that, and I thank the officer, Mrs. Smith,
for that report on the Director, obviously, but I'm confused
now, and who had the 9.4 million pound published by Lesley
Griffiths on the Welsh government in the report,
specifically said it is directed at the Cairo scheme.
Perhaps I need to address that then with my assembly member,
or as they call themselves in our government, the government
member, but I'm confused, although we've only spent probably
the total of the scheme published given to us is the 3 million,
is it odd, or 3 million pound roughly?
Well, I asked Janine after a question.
Did we have, or did we have that 9 million or 6.5 million?
What happened?
Janine, can you address that?
I do believe we were awarded up to 9 million, we were,
but you have to put in a grant claim, Councillor Jenkins,
as and when you get to the point where you have a spend.
So we got to the point where we spent 2.9 million,
we couldn't make the scheme financially viable, so that's when
it stopped.
So the rest of the money stayed with ERDF,
or was allocated to other schemes, so we didn't draw down any
money, because you have to draw it down as and when you progress.
So because we couldn't make sure it broke, even then what we can't
have is the Council subsidising that.
We made a decision, and I have to tell you, it's with a heavy
hard-remated decision, because we've been at this for some time.
We did have the money to implement it, but at that point,
it was considered that the annual cost of running that heat
network was too high, so we had to unfortunately stop at that
point.
Thank you.
Councillor Martin Williams, please.
Thank you, Chair.
The question really goes back into, I've got two questions,
is really exactly what was the money spent on.
Now, we hear that about £100,000 was spent on a borehole,
but that's a very small percentage of the 3 million.
And then it was referenced that most, I think I think the phrase
was most of the Welsh government funding was spent on
determining the energy demand of houses in Cairo.
That's 1.4 million.
Now, that's an awful lot of money, and I can't reconcile that.
I mean, you would survey a few houses, and then you'd extrapolate
that.
So presumably, there's this smart metres and what have you
anyway, so the information is available from other sources.
You know, the energy partners will know what sort of energy use
a typical Cairo House will have.
So I'm really struggling to see, given that all we've got at the
end of it is a report, and really struggling to see where the
3 million pound was actually spent, and £100,000 on a borehole,
and maybe 1.4 million on surveys doesn't cut it.
I'd like to see more, understand more detail of where it all is.
I've got a second question as well, but I'd like that answered
first if that's OK.
Yeah, of course.
Councillor Williams, I think what we must realize here is this was
occurring over 6 years, and we were working with consultants on
feasibility, working with the coal authority, working on the site.
This was expenditure.
Now, every single claim on that grant, we had to submit a claim
to the funder.
So there is a very, very detailed audit trail of where the money
was spent.
Was it necessary to undertake the project?
So I'm not able to answer that in detail today, and I don't think
it's right we do either.
But what I can do is, if you do want to see where the detail of
that is, what I can ask is that the team go back and look at those
replies to the funders of when they drew down the monies and the
grants over that 6 year period, and we can give you probably a
high level summary of what it was spent on, because of course we
couldn't claim the draw down on the money unless it was legitimate
to be spent on that scheme.
So hopefully that will help there to satisfy your curiosity there.
Are you happy with that, Martin?
If we get a report on where it was spent?
I mean, I can tend to have a report, Chair, but given that we're
talking about £3 million with very little to show for it, I'm
surprised that we haven't got more detail.
Come to this committee.
My second question, if I could, Chair, before I give away to
others, is to talk about that this scheme was unviable for two
reasons that I picked up.
One was that business rates made it unviable, which I presume would
have been known early on.
That would have been known early on.
And secondly, that the borehole after the borehole was done,
that it was considered that it was unviable as a result of that.
So again, we're only £100,000 in.
So those things you'd think you'd do the borehole quite early on
and you'd know about the business rates early on.
So why did we spend £3 million before we realized it was
unviable when we could have known this stuff at a much earlier
stage?
That's something else I don't really understand.
Jeanine, can I come in quickly there?
Councillor Williams said that the borehole was unviable.
Did you actually say that?
Or is that actually being?
No.
The borehole, the results.
Wasn't it said that after the result of the borehole said that
the water wasn't right or that it was too deep.
Initial reports coming out at the time, because obviously it
would be the kind of member, Councillor Williams.
It was 18 degrees of water and all this.
So I don't remember that being an issue.
Sorry, you were just getting an answer anyway.
Yeah, absolutely.
So this was a demonstrator project that was agreed and the
business case was agreed by WEFO, the European funding office.
So when you have a demonstrator project, there's two things that
can happen as well aware you can succeed or can fail.
And that's what a demonstrator project is about.
Trying to demonstrate the concept of using mind water.
Now boreholes weren't driven on that site or drilled into the
ground for a couple of years, because we had to do all of the
work with the coal authority, get the permissions, see which
coal seam was the most viable, or the geo-tech, work had to be
done for some time.
And then when we put the borehole in, the borehole was
feasible.
But what was very clear is the cost of that mind water
scheme.
Annual revenue cost was higher than the income we could
drive from it.
And it was only as we went through the process, did that
become clear?
And at the point that became clear, that was when we had a
conversation with the colleagues, WEFO, whilst government
et cetera, to say at this stage, in the economy, in the
climate, it is unfinancially unviable.
It wasn't prudent to go any further with that scheme and to
start to use that water for heat.
Now, from our conversation with our colleagues at WEFO, we had
spent the grant and we claimed it in a timely way.
And what they've said is that all of the information that we
have learned, all of those lessons we've learned is
valuable information.
Councillor Williams, if you go onto the toolkit itself, you
will see the detailed analysis and work that has been undertaken
as part of this project that will now be used and is being
used by local authorities in other parts of the UK to look at
whether schemes are viable for them, including geology,
hydrology, commercial modeling, licenses and permits, because
that was important.
All of the borehole and drill in itself.
We learned an awful lot about that, what depth you need to go.
We looked at project management of governance, procurement and
our colleague who's here with us today can probably give you
more detail, Alistair, about what was done there because one of
the things that he was asked to do was to look at the lessons
learned from this project.
So whilst I realise that you don't think that money spent was
worthwhile, and that's what I'm getting from you, the funders
were content with the amount of money.
We spent a third of the allocated funding getting to that point
and preparing this toolkit for other people.
We didn't go any further once we knew that the revenue wouldn't
work out for this authority.
So at this stage, it was an innovative project.
The first in the UK and for us in BCBC, I'm afraid it doesn't
work out financially.
Now, other authorities in other parts of the UK may be prepared
to subsidise this, or maybe the government, the UK government
will subsidise the costages in other parts of the UK.
But at that stage, at that time, we couldn't proceed with a
revenue liability for the Council, and we've made the right
decision here.
However, everything we've learned over that period that we were
doing this project is now captured for other people to use and
the funders are content for that.
They're not asking for any repayment of any grant.
They are content for the outcomes from this demonstrated project.
Okay, thank you, Chair.
Thank you, thank you, Chair.
Can I just say, can I just correct something?
I don't have a view on this.
I mean, the role of committee is not my view at the moment,
whether it's worthwhile or not.
Our view, our role is to ask questions, and at the end we'll
conclude whether we feel it was worthwhile or not.
So I just like to correct that.
I don't have a view at this point.
I ask the questions to test the report in front of us.
Oh, my mistake, then.
My mistake, Chair, because I thought you were expressed in a view
that we spent the money.
Martin is ambivalent to this juncture, I think,
it's fair to say, Janine.
You don't want to bring Alice dead in this moment, Janine,
do you know?
Did Alice, do you want to bring Alice dead in, did you say?
Alice, there is anything you can add to this part, do you think?
Yes, I'm sorry, I do apologize.
My camera doesn't seem to be working.
I seem to be a grey square, so I do apologize.
We can see you, Alice.
You can see me.
I can't see myself.
To make it all just, yes, we'll go to it.
Hello.
Hi, mate.
Thank you, Chair.
Yes, I just wanted to add on to what Janine was saying,
which was that the toolkit that has resulted from this
fits very nicely amongst a number of other toolkits
that are available through other organizations, for example,
the Energy Systems Catapult that I work with as well,
which includes a whole sector, a very large set of information
about public sector decarbonization, the like.
So there's some very good toolkits out there,
and this particular toolkit is the first and only one
that I'm aware of that covers mind-water heat.
So it is really provided a hugely valuable set of information,
and that is directly based upon the experiences
that have been held from this particular project,
which have, while over a significant period of time,
have certainly the various phases that this project has gone through,
and let's be straightforward about it.
The attempts that have been made to make it a viable project
financially have certainly provided some really useful lessons learned,
and they're all to the good for, as Junice has suggested,
other organizations that may well be able to move a project like this
forward in different circumstances.
Thank you, I was there, thank you very much.
Councillor Jonathan Pratt, please.
Yeah, thank you, Chair.
Yeah, it's the same that one of the reasons is that the world's
government wanted business rates, but there we are.
They wanted their pound of flesh, but they weren't getting it,
but never mind. I'm looking at the Nordic energy,
mind-water potential interactive map.
Now, did this come before or after the conclusion of this report?
Because looking at it, and I'm cautious that I'm not,
I'm staring at something that I don't fully understand,
but it looks like Cairo seems to have a lot of improbable mind-water potential,
so whereas if you go over to Blingaro, Nanti, Moyle,
it's a lot more orange.
It's a simple question, I suppose, probably with a complex answer.
Did we pick the wrong area of the County borough?
Did we know that before, or do we know it now, if that makes sense?
I'm going to jump in your quick, Chair.
I'm going to offer a quick answer because I seem to remember a similar question
coming up during the scheme itself on this.
And the reason I used Cairo was because the access to the actual,
above the actual shafts was so good.
Now, there may be better, more water in Blingaro,
but getting over the drill site and to get down into the drill is more,
maybe more difficult, but I let the expert answer that.
Janine, or do you want to bring us back in?
I think Paul is probably the best person to answer this, Chair.
I think that that interacted to me looking at that was developed as part of the toolkits.
That was something that was funded.
And Council Davis is quite right.
The orange colours you see in there is purely an assessment of the underground water quality.
It doesn't make any assessment as to how accessible that might be,
which does factor into it as well.
So the idea behind that tool is to use exactly as you've done there.
It's a ready record.
You can zone in on the bright orange areas.
Then you can get some kind of idea about how suitable the housing stock would be for district heating.
So you need to have pretty efficient fabric on a house for it to connect to a district heat network.
So the better the ratings on that tool, the more likely it is that you can retrofit a district heat connection
without any further energy efficiency work.
Okay.
Thank you.
Thank you for the question.
We want Councillor Ian Williams to speak next.
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Chair.
I think Jonathan has stolen my thunder because my question is virtually on the same lines.
I was just going to ask really what sets kind of apart from the other two valleys in the borough.
Paul didn't actually quite cover that.
Is it because of the openness of that site or is it is that because of the reason?
My point of view, we have deprived areas in all three valleys. We have. Yeah. And I would have thought.
After the debacle of the 2012, our bed, installation.
Scheme.
We would have stayed well clear of Cairo with any more pilot schemes regarding.
Installation or any other form of saving schemes.
Okay.
Let's ask Paul, but the actual question was Paul, is it accessibility?
Is that the reason Cairo was chosen or not?
I'm afraid I don't know, but it's long before my time.
Sorry, sorry.
There was there were at least two studies done before there was a submission to we're full.
I think it was before the submission around heat master planning, which looked at the whole county borough and.
I identified areas and one of those is undertaken by by Hitachi.
And it kind of university did another little stand corrected there.
So there was it wasn't picked just because it was Cairo, you know, looking at levels of deprivation or whatever the measure there might have been there.
So there was quite a lot of work that went into identifying that particular area.
And I dare say accessibility was one of the one of the main factors.
Okay, thank you.
As a point and note, my grandfather sent the pits at St. John's.
Just so you know where.
Very interesting.
I thought that in there.
Okay, I think I'm taking up a chest at myself and I'll come back on that one.
Councillor Steven, let's go please.
Not sure if that was a declaration of interest or not there.
We'll move on.
Thank you chair.
And I do really enjoy these sessions because it does give us the opportunity to get under the skin of some things.
And I want to, if possible, just briefly go back to the business rates, the issue, just purely because two points of clarity I'm asking.
One, when a business owner takes ownership of an empty premises until they start operating, then they're still liable for the business rates, even if they're not operating.
So have we paid business rates on this in the past because we were the tenant or whatever we were, the legal.
Occupier of the land. So have we paid any business rates to now and a case was made for the exemption from business rates, given the potential opportunity this could go.
Was the business model workable if we didn't have to pay business rates.
So have Welsh government here cut their nose off despite their face by demanding business rates, hence stopping something that could have been a benefit to the community actually going forward.
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you.
I answer that.
Yeah, we, we undertook an awful lot of communication with Welsh government over the business rates piece. We haven't paid business rates on the land before, but it was going to be paid because in essence we were creating a heat network.
So it was a commercial network because it was tapped among to an energy company, I suppose, even though it was owned by BCBC.
So business rates would have been due on that once it started operating.
And when you then take the cost of that business rate spread it over the financial model, what it did was took the annual cost of that way above the income that would come in.
So at that point, it made it and viable when you're modeled in the business rates.
Now, that wasn't the only thing that we had some concern with.
It wasn't just the business rates, they were concerns with getting land together and other things land assembly, but it was just one of a basket of things that made this scheme very difficult.
The other thing, Councillor Bletzer was that the timeframe for operating this, we were grant funded until a certain cut off date, and at one point it was getting very, very tight to that date to get that scheme drilled and in operation.
Now, what would have happened is we may have been in the unfortunate position where the grant stopped and the work would have to continue past that date, in which case BCBC would have had to funded the completion of the work.
So they were a number of things, but not least, the business rates, when it was modeled over 20 years was it was tantamount to a couple of million pounds.
So what did it do?
It would be clear that we didn't actually pay any business rates because we never built up the scheme.
What was the second question again, Councillor Bletzer? Was it unsure?
It has been answered and it is extremely frustrating because I think everybody on here is a community Councillor, we all own buildings, we all have to pay business rates on stuff that could be serving the community.
And to me, what I'm hearing is we took part in something that's cost the taxpayer £3 million, which in part has not become viable because whilst government want their pound of flesh on business rates, and this could have been great use to great many people and could have helped with our carbon neutrality and everything going forward.
And it just seems that left hand, right hand, and I'm not referring to us.
Just for the record, Councillor Bletzer, you were in the premedial, I supported the scheme when it was in opposition, it appeared to it.
I got like there always is, isn't it, everything. It's a great loss to Kailen, it wasn't successful, but there's lots of people up here who would argue the opposite, you know, but what can you say?
Yeah, I mean, my point chair was just on the fact that we need joined up thinking, you know, if something has become unviable because it's millions of pounds in business rates, then that's counterproductive. So thank you for the answer and thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Chair. I'm going to trump Councillor Williams, Councillor Williams's a look out like my grandfather worked on our pets. So, you know, when I first heard by the scheme, it was really pleasing.
But I think one of the key rewards at least is still in the bottom 10%. So, there's a bad loss on that basis. I take every point, it comes apart, the map is fantastically interactive map is fantastic, if you're a bit of a train sport when it comes to maps, I advise anybody to go and have a look at that.
And I agree with the points made about the West Government's short-sighted attitude towards the business rates, applying something evenly is sometimes counterproductive.
And in terms of the actual issues around previous reports and scrutiny and audits, you know, I've been in a role whereby I had to produce reports for the West Government who then passed them on the way forth.
And they do expect a huge level of scrutiny, you know, down to the last penny. So I'm sure the Council fulfilled all those obligations. And if the Council does not records, then the West European funding office will have those records.
And my point is, I'm over here for because this is a report from no doubt.
It's great to see the plan.
All people think it's a lot of money for just a plan, but hopefully this will benefit this because at the end of the day, this is a research and development project, and some of them hit and some of them miss.
And for different reasons, not a lack of effort by the sound victim went over over six years to be fair, this one didn't work.
But as Janine said, that's not to say that at some point in the future, economic circumstances dictate that this could actually become more viable.
But hopefully in other parts of the country, they will learn from the lessons.
I'm blind in the report and somebody will take it on. So my question is really about that issue. So we've got a reasonable kind of publicity proposal around how we make sure these lessons are not just learned, but available to those people thinking of considering that in the future.
So has the team given any more consideration to how they could develop this publicity plan and a bit more detail, whether it's like on an animal basis, you send out a publicity shot or you contact those organizations that may still be involved.
I'm thinking of British calling particular may still be involved in these kind of things, but the bottom line is that, you know, more and more we have to take part in these research and development projects on this kind of technology, because we don't have much choice.
And the clock is ticking on, you know, as finding more economic solutions. So that's really my question. Thanks, Chair.
Thank you, Dr Davis.
Yeah, I'll come in and start and I might bring Alistair in if I, if I may chair because he's done a bit of work on that for us.
Yes, I mean, when I mean I didn't join the authorities till 2000 and obviously this project had been was on it at that time. But
we, you know, we were thrilled because we have a legacy don't we have a coal mining industry in South Wales and if we thought we could use those mines and also the coal authority felt the same.
If they could use that landscape for some real benefit for sustainability, then we should do we should try everything we could.
Now, you know, so that's why the grant was was funded and we, and we did that piece of work. And I think you're absolutely right.
Councillor Davis, you know, there will be I'm quite sure in the future more opportunities to use this water because we have to be self sufficient don't we stop using fossil fuels moving on.
But the one thing that we did ask Alistair to do was to look at the toolkit and to come up with his view to order it and see whether was there any more we could do because we've got all this fantastic learning and you're right.
We should be sharing it with them at the local authorities and other organizations.
So I'm going to bring Alistair in because in section 3.2 of this report, it does cover some of those things that you did suggest about reviewing and speaking to people.
So, Chair, may I bring Alistair in? Yes, certainly.
Thank you.
Thanks, Julian. Thank you, Chair. I was yes, we there was considerable dissemination of the of the information already to a place by by Nordic Energy who was the main authors of the report.
So that was a useful exercise as I understand it. And then, but the thing that I think would be really useful would be to see if it was possible in some way to continue to build on this report, keeping it up to date, keeping it as a really useful resource for organizations,
other local authorities and people like that to go to. And equally, it could become a it could become a resource that could be built on by other organizations as well.
So, you know, if Newcastle Authority or somebody like that did some work on coal on my water heat, then that could be documented.
And the lessons learned added into this almost like a library of information and shared learning that could then become a very useful repository for anybody wanting to develop my water heat within the UK.
And so those would be my my thoughts on that, particularly, obviously, that doesn't come with zero cost.
So there would need to be either a small amount of investment made by local authorities generally, not necessarily pretend, but also there may be grant funding available from technology transfer or some other government offices who might be able to support some work of that nature.
Okay, thank you. You were content with our concert, he was.
I am just one last point in terms of lessons learned, I think, on us as last point there about the finances involved. I think we should possibly make a bit more by the issue of the business rates.
And I think we should involve the West government in that as well, because, as I said, moving forward in terms of the research and develop our projects about renewable energies.
There has to be a different way of looking at these projects and that kind of energy because otherwise, you know, it's going to be a barrier and we can't afford any more barriers.
So I'd just like to see a bit more emphasis on things like on the report. I know that might be seen as controversial and confrontational, but as some of the other speakers have already said, we think it's quite important.
Thanks, Chair.
Thank you, Chair. At the risk of making it out like I've got a got a view on this already. I mean, I'm disappointed because I've got, I really like this sort of stuff. It's, it's, it's innovative and, and, and we should be trying to do clever things and I like being part of an organization that does clever things.
I want to help going back to the fact that, you know, some of your residents, chair or other residents will say you've spent three million pound, and you haven't got anything other than a report which you're going to give away to other people.
So, you know, what are we as an organization going to really learn from this about how we manage R&D projects or this sort of thing because all right, it's all very well saying that, you know, 80% or 90% was funded elsewhere, but they're still getting on 400,000 pounds worth of our money.
It's, it's staff resource or actual pencilings and pens. It's still our resource that was used there. And I'm concerned that that residents looking in at this, given, you know, the council tax rise and all the rest of that we do.
And we'll just say, well, look, you've spent three million pounds, you've got nothing for it. So I would like to see, you know, for example, did we have any IP, do we own any intellectual property that we can, that we can, that we can monetize to get some of our investment back.
I suspect not. So I mean, I would like to, I would like to see some more assurance, actually some financial assurance and whether internal audit want to have a look to see what we've done.
And maybe come up, maybe they could advise us to how we manage R&D or innovative schemes going forward because we, you know, this wasn't sold as an R&D project really was it.
When we had the, when we had the press about this, it was, it was great fanfare and how, you know, how, how houses in Cairo are going to be powered by, you know, the legacy minds beneath them.
And I just think we need to be far more, far more shrewd, and we need to learn real lessons and that if that takes an audit, then I would welcome that.
Okay. Was a question that comes to Williams, I quote a demisitor. Oh, sorry. Yeah, in the months there. How do we ensure how do we ensure that we not just learn the lessons of, of mind water.
But how do we ensure that we really learn the lessons of, of how we managed innovative or R&D or speculative projects because we don't seem to have a good record of it.
Okay. Thank you. Sorry, Jenny. I missed it as my fault. I shouldn't interrupt it again. Go on.
Well, Chair, that does seem like an opinion to me from Council Martin Williams. He said he would don't have a good track record of managing innovative schemes.
Now that does seem correct me if I'm wrong, but a bit of an opinion there.
So what I would say here is if you look at what was the match fund from Progen, the match fund was in stuff, stuff, not revenue.
We match fund our 10% in stuff.
And those staff were working in those areas anyway.
The remainder of the money was from Welsh government and from Wefo European funding.
And when we were claiming those grants, we were putting in detailed claim forms to get those grants, and they were perfectly comfortable with the grant forms we were claiming, and they were ordered as such by the funders at the time.
They wouldn't have released that money, Councillor Williams had it not been prudent to do so. And we are talking about a time from 2016 onwards is when we spent this money over a number of years.
It was a demonstrator project and a demonstrator project by its very name is that you may succeed or if you demonstrate the project is not financially viable, then you know when to stop.
And that's what I think the lessons that we've learned here are many and multiple and that's what's in the toolkit.
We've learned that this is a fantastic technology, but at this moment in time, the financial climate in the market does not allow us to make it financially viable, so we had to stop.
The money was there from the funders to continue to implement it, but then the annual revenue cost would have had to have been borne by this Council, because it was that primary school in Cairo that would have had to have paid the revenue cost for the scheme.
So what wasn't right and proper at that time was to have that revenue cost. So hopefully that makes sense. Although I feel I have answered this question twice now though.
Quick quickly, Colson Williams also said earlier in his comments about intellectual property or lack of after the scheme is there is there any.
No, I don't believe there's any IP from here. This is a, it was boring down for mind water. If you think about what we were doing, we're using mind water and putting it through a heat pump to extract energy so that the heat pump isn't new technology.
The new bit was getting the mind water up from the ground was the new bit. So I don't believe there is any IP here. I stand corrected the team would tell me it's different.
But as far as we've got to with this project, you know, it wasn't for the faint-hearted at the outset, and we were funded by REFO and Welsh government to do this.
I have to admit the team put their heart and soul into this, and it was a very, very tough day when we had to decide that it couldn't go forward, because I have to assure you it wasn't through the lack of trying here to make this scheme work.
It would have really highly benefited those communities in fuel poverty, Jack. So I'll stop.
Agreed. Thank you. Come to Jenkins, I'm bringing Coater Spanswick here as a cabinet member. See if he's going to be able to bring under this conversation, is that OK?
Yes, he can go before me. Sorry.
Coater Spanswick, please.
How could go to Jenkins? I'd like to share that my camera still I'm working, but I just want to try and play the way forward, because Jeanine, the director has explained more than once now.
Now this was back to eight years. I was eight years ago, and I can remember there were lots of discussion about this, or search and development, damage to the project, call it.
I'm a bit disappointed when it goes to Matthew, I'm just searching for some of the new clubs isn't there. I mean, what point is into an audit when we are we're for the whole audit process, which has been explained about the claims.
OK, there is a lot of money, and it does need to be perhaps some questions asked from which government or to which government of business rate element.
I asked for enough, but it seems to be desperate to scramble to find the problems and where this is a learning project, and an innovative project, a bold project, which BCBC.
It's great they tried it and there's learning from it as part of the toolkit, and there'll be many parts of the country I hope will learn from it, but we might not know about that.
They'll go on to the toolkit on the website, take bits off the need, and put that into some work they're doing. We might not even be contacted.
So we don't really know the full extent of how well it will be used throughout the country, learning from our experiences.
I think it's a shame, it's a pity, it hasn't progressed. But as you said, Chair, for every person who wanted this to work in Kaira, another one didn't want it to work.
So we are where we are. Let's stop looking for problems.
Okay, thank you Councillor unz-Wick. Councillor Jeng, has your hand disappeared?
Is it me or Councillor Bledso?
Well, your hand disappeared off the screen for some reason.
You put it down again, I'm new.
I am touched on the thing for lip.
Councillor interjecting.
Councillor interjecting.
Yes, I had a bit of crumpered. At the end of the day, I think in all fairness to officers in this body, a good autopsy now at the moment, to a very large extent, and the economics of it are there speaking for themselves.
But just for us to note at the moment as well, the largest project in the UK, and this is where it's not our officers faltering, but devolve governments and all working together.
And we have to look at different parts and hopefully people can learn from this.
But Gates said, for instance, we're backed by the coal authority as a six megawatt heat pump source service in several hundred homes and public offices and libraries, et cetera there.
And they went live last year, you know, in this.
And so the next one to go live will be the same village in Durham project, et cetera.
So there are always young benefits, but for everybody to be aware and I'm sure they are hard at the end of the day, both all the consultants on the pros and consides of all of this are saying the real only benefit to date.
Of the heat water pump schemes is just to progress decarbonization. And for that, it has to be economic. And therefore, I believe this council did make a great decision given all the information they had in front of them.
And doesn't mean to say as we all talk about revisiting it, et cetera.
On many good questions, obviously, being asked on the amount of money that is spent on it.
But that has been done, and we've not progressing at the moment on it until it becomes really valuable.
And so I'd like you to be aware that our projects work in. And if we can learn from them along with the Welsh government to make it a viable position, then I would have certainly have no objections, but the cost certainly outweigh the decarbonization from for the scheme anyway.
So, thank you for giving me that time. Thank you. No problem. Thanks. And that's a little bit research you can't afford to, you know, and especially with success, we found out two projects were to work in that's a, so have a good input.
Yeah, live. Yeah, live. Yeah, good. Yeah. Thank you chair. And, and, yeah, I kind of agree with where we are going with this, but it's, this is a lessons learned report.
And I think I did a little bit of a word search on the report and how many times lessons learned was mentioned and how many times challenges were mentioned.
We do kind of share the concerns expressed by Martin Williams that this is three million pounds worth of lessons learned. And we can, we can divvy it up into different tables.
But all, all other than Scottish power, which is 64,000, well, 65,000 pounds is all public money from somewhere.
And from a public body, it's European funding is your central government. It's wealth government. It's all public money. I think that we have to bear that in mind because yes, this is innovative.
We kind of understand why it hasn't got anywhere. But I want this to always remember that this is public money. I've owned my own company. I did research and development. If something didn't work, I would get tax allowances for a following year.
If something happened in this line of work, this is three million pounds gone, all of which of 65,000 pounds was public money. That's not pointing the finger at anybody for this failing.
Although I hold my concerns over the stumbling block that business rates have shown here. I just want to still remember that. And if we are coming forward the recommendations that when we want to do good things when we want to try and push the envelope.
So that's just about other people's money that we're using. Thank you chair. Thank, thank you, Officer Bexor, Councillor Graham Walter, please.
Thank you chair. And I would like to pass on thanks to Jeanine and the other offices and professionals present for a concise report, which I think very well encapsulates the work that's been done via workshops, et cetera, to understand things that
are lessons learned, things that could be done differently going forward if similar opportunities come up. I would respectfully steer back chair to the fact that this is a report to describe the activity that was undertaken and what is now a closed scheme.
And so that we are simply being asked in the recommend recommendation at the end to note the content of the report and provide comments. And I think we spent an hour doing that, and I propose that we move on. Thanks chair.
Okay, well, there's no other hands raised it comes to, I do point, I'm going to give it comes to the last word and it's any if that's the feeling of committee.
And he has it hung up before you before you came in agree I'm sorry I'm going to give it, I'm going to give John to the chance to speak.
Do you want them please.
Yeah, thank you chair yeah no I just run in a quick Google search.
When it comes to R&D projects the UK government spent 15.3 billion pound on these type of things on in 2020 the Welsh government spends 1.7 billion on R&D which will include these demonstrated projects.
Now, I suppose if every single one of them failed, there would be questions if every demonstrated project that BC BC involved itself in failed there would be bigger questions.
But the fact of the matter is if you don't test things, you never know whether they work or not. So, yeah, I do feel if you bear in mind that the levels of zeros at the end of figures that are being spent in the UK.
And that 3 million is it is a loss it's taxpayer's money, but I think it is, it appears to me that it's it's money.
Well spent on what has become ultimately a failed project, but with a lot of valuable lessons that we've taken from it. So, I think we can put that 3 million pound in context over what happens across the UK as a whole. Thank you chair.
Okay.
There's no further indication so I am going to.
I will ask my phone four five.
If I don't for the questions, I will thank the invitees you may you may leave the meeting if that's that's your wish.
Many thanks chair.
Thank you everyone.
We give it a good day.
I think didn't we.
Yeah, thank you chair. Thank you.
Thank you.
Okay.
Item five, conclusions and recommendations.
I can ask a scripting officer summarize a key points in the committee makes it.
We may make a conclusions and recommendations on this topic, please.
Mary, did you need. Sorry, Janine.
Sorry, there has been lots of discussion today. I'll just run through some key.
Key point and then open it back up to the committee.
So there was lots of discussion on the grant spend.
And what that money was spent on.
Janine did. Sorry, the corporate director did offer for her team to come back to the committee.
With where the money was drawn down.
To give them the best understanding in more detail.
There was discussion around the interactive map and what's that kind of part.
And also lots of discussion on business rates.
There was.
Councillor call and David.
What up moving forward.
And the, the publicity, how to make sure the lessons are learned and available.
And perhaps more consideration to be developed.
Sorry, Chair, for me.
So useful, possibly sort of the more built in on the report.
Keep up date with other local authority.
Could I think linking in with the toolkit could be built on by others.
So that there would be a library information. I believe this was mentioned by the gentleman from.
From Mabel Coe.
Again, it's more discussion on the business rate.
A different way to look at the project.
Everything from me, Chair, any of the members have anything they'd like to add.
Thank you.
Thank you, Chair. The one, the one thing that hasn't been mentioned there, and perhaps I didn't articulate it properly.
Because I was trying not to express a view.
But not joking aside.
As you know, in full Council, from time to time, particularly when we have the capital.
A capital program comes up. I tend to make comment about the robustness of how we manage our programs and our projects.
And it's not just to be awkward. It's because I feel we have a weakness in that area.
And I feel we also have an opportunity to strengthen, let's be positive, how we manage our project.
This is an R&D project.
And I'm not, if we're going to do this sort of thing, and I hope we do, I hope we carry on.
That we need to have some better process around that and, you know, the management of finances, the proper gateway, gateway protocols, you know, go, no go, you know, and the rest of it.
For all I know, £3 million could be good value.
But I don't know that it's good value. And I don't think the public will think it's good value.
And so we need to have, in my mind, as a recommendation, some, if we're going to do R&D, some, some proper investigation as to what's good and what our processes should be to manage it.
Because there's, you know, £3 million a big R&D project. And, you know, I can't get away from that.
But I want the positive I want. And the question what I did ask, and it wasn't answered, was forget Kyra Mindwater for a second.
What are we going to learn about doing R&D projects? And that's a recommendation I'd like to put forward.
And then, and then I'd know if it was valid for money or not, wouldn't I, you know.
Right.
Okay.
Welcome, Artie.
Coach Steven Bresso, please.
Thank you, chair, and trying to build on that with something positive that can go back from the committee is, is I kind of share the sentiments of the term lessons will be learned.
And I'm trying to look at this from the view of the public that we're elected to represent.
Whilst I can take on board, Councillor Pratt's research on how much is spent across the United Kingdom.
And, you know, this is small amounts based on that. It is still public money.
And, you know, we talk about aspects like my stake town hall and what lessons will we learn from that.
We talk about aspects about our bed and what lessons will be learned from that.
We talk about this now new scheme and what lessons will be learned from that.
This all comes down to costing money when we are cutting, cutting, cutting.
And we are people, we are giving people less and less and less.
We are required to manage this money.
And I'm also a big, big fan of research and development without it.
You don't move forward.
But I don't, I don't want this almost, well, it's three million pounds.
This come from here has come from here and lessons with what, what definitively are the lessons that we have learned from this.
Because that's not in the report. We'll say we'll learn lessons, but what specifically are the lessons we have learned.
There's cost three million pounds of public money that we can move forward and represent our residents.
Because whenever it was, John, I can't remember 150 billion or whatever it was.
I don't want to get caught in that trap.
This is this, this is this specific case that we're looking at.
And we need to go, you know, knock indoors, talk into our residents and justify in that we've been their voice in this meeting.
You know, what has that money goes on and what specifically have we learned.
Because if there isn't anything, then we don't have the, the key element of R&D, which is how we do things differently.
What we're going to do.
Okay. Thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Caso Betso, a co-slur calling Davis, please.
Thanks, Chair.
I think the way in terms of, you know, tell me if I'm wrong, but I thought the report actually said I asked.
For a view on how we take things forward.
So in other words, they have learned the lessons.
And one of the questions that's come out of that is.
Do we, in the future, do we maintain projects like this in-house?
Or do we, instead of doing that, do we instantly go out and look for experts in the public or private sector?
Now, in this particular project, it looks like the team they created to manage it was quite comprehensive.
In terms of, you know, universities, I said British coal is actually the coal authority.
And, and hopefully the West government in terms of experts on, on how the coal field works geologically.
So, tell me if I'm wrong, but my understanding was that that was one of the requests from officers.
Ask in this committee for a view on how we take things forward in the future.
So they're not ignoring that.
They specifically saying that.
What do you think?
Thank you, Chair.
I would slow trouble, please.
Yeah, thank you, Chair.
I just want to point to clarity.
I don't want anyone to just aimlessly throw money away.
You know, and we are, you know, right, right, you're wrongly, you know, we're in the crisis financially that, that we are in.
But it is something that frustrates me as a politician that, you know, when, when something fails automatically, someone will jump out and go, could have spent that better or should have spent it on the NHS or why haven't you spent it on schools and this sort of thing.
But if we don't look at research and development, we don't look at.
I mean, if this project was successful.
You know, I mean, whether it were to produce cheaper electricity.
I'm not saying the residents of Cairo would be laughing at the moment, but it would hopefully, the idea is this would be a cheaper source of electricity.
So like my games down here in Portugal, who's now paying through the, the, the, the grid.
Cairo would have had, you know, a separate system. So, you know, it is.
We've got to keep moving forward and looking at things and understand that sometimes these things fail.
And sometimes they're successful, you know, they have been successful in other areas.
You know, it's maybe if they pick the site in Blangaroo.
This would have been successful rather than Cairo. But, you know, as I understand, you know, the, this map has come after the point, not before.
So it's, we've got to keep looking.
We've got to be cost effective. We've got to be responsible with the money that the public give us, regardless of where it comes from.
UK government, Welsh government, our own income, but it's, I think we'd be failing as a society.
If we don't keep looking forward for new, innovative projects on sometimes that is just a cost of things.
And we've got to keep moving forward. Thank you chair.
Okay. Thank you.
Councillor SRI. Thank you chair. I think if you sort of asked the man in the street about this project, I think that, you know, the first thing they would say is it was a total waste of money.
And what I do find frustrating, very, very frustrating is that the lessons will be learned.
How many times did we switch on the TV and somebody says, lessons will be learned and things still happen. The same things still happen. I don't know how many times lessons will be learned. It hasn't been mentioned today.
So I think it is essential that we understand what those lessons were that were learned.
So, you know, I think that should be one of the, one of the recommendations is even if we just get it in an email, you know, is to understand what lessons have been learned. And, you know, with the R bed.
Yes, go as well. Kyra has had its, you know, its fair share of wasted money, quite honestly.
It's a similar question comes to bled so there's it about the, what are the lessons nor is it as with them.
But yes, comes to Davis.
Didn't agree but that you, there's two to one there but anyway, we've got Councillor.
Good morning, please. Thank you. Just to try and bring us back to recommendations. We're on conclusions and recommendations. It might be that my sense of what everybody is saying is that we make a recommendation that amongst the lessons at 3.4 and 3.5.
We should add something along the lines of due consideration to the financial risks and constraints and pressures should be given to each and every similar type of project, something along those lines, form of words along those lines.
And then, as I said earlier, I really do think we need to move on.
Yes. Thank you very much. I've heard the debate thoroughly. And I will concur with a Councillor Graham Walter. We do need to move on, but I just wanted to be recognized that this was a demonstrator project.
All for innovation, and just remember that BC BC have built a toolkit from their lessons learned to share with others.
And therefore, you know, I think it's all about finding out who will use that toolkit, how to have how has it worked for them. Those are the lessons learned that we can keep in involved with those authorities that are utilized in the toolkit.
That was built from BC BC from lessons learned.
Okay, thank you.
Can I go to Melanie or Lucy? We got a couple more like a Councillor Jenkins now. Councillor Jenkins, please.
Let me move on. You're meant to warn you, Philip.
Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've just been just coming back on the matter over there, right? 99% of Italy said in the beginning of my open speech.
I could have found out on the internet, right? It's there. It's all the information is available on any project to occur with the others as well. Any projects going forward.
There should be an a thorough evaluation of seeing even if looking to see before we even start a viability process on it. Just all I just like to say.
Okay, we're going to move it on now. Lucy, have we got anything put together on that? No, in these comments we made? What are we going to bring into you and what we're going to recommend and conclude?
If you're happy for me to do so, Chair, I'll get something together and then send it around to the committee if that's okay.
Yeah, is that okay? Are we happy with that? Okay.
But it's we've got, we just finished right to five now and I don't six is this is just no, it says for noting this quarter three performance.
Now, if we're not going to note this and just move on, I'm going to have to call a break here because we're going to go on way past our office five other ways.
So do what we do call a break now and come back to this or would like to be to.
Yeah, we'll have 10 minutes now and then we come back to some cases does develop into something that the, you know, it's, it's not, you know, because it is safe and open, but I'm sure that people will want to ask the question.
Come to Williams quickly, please.
You're on mute. Come to Williams.
I take my lead, but you know that chair, because it's yeah. Okay, that's fine. Yeah, yeah, it's gonna be passed by.
No problem. Yeah, okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for attending. Okay, it's 10 minute break.
Now with 1722 by my clock. I don't know if that's what David's agreement with that.
We call it 32 then coming back to something our boss quick quick quick quick.
Okay, thank you very much guys. Thank you.
Summary
The council meeting focused on reviewing and noting various reports, discussing the forward work program, and addressing concerns raised by members about specific issues such as housing and highways. The meeting was characterized by a detailed examination of the reports presented and a lively discussion on potential topics for future scrutiny.
Information Report for Quarter 3, Performance 23/24:
- Decision: The report was noted without any need for a vote.
- Discussion: There was no detailed discussion or opposition presented.
- Implications: The decision to simply note the report implies general satisfaction with the information provided or a lack of urgent issues requiring immediate action.
Forward Work Program:
- Decision: The committee discussed potential topics to include in the forward work program, such as housing updates and highway reviews.
- Discussion: Members expressed a desire to add specific topics like the regeneration of Bridgetown center and the scrutiny of empty homes policy. Concerns were raised about the need to prioritize topics due to limited meeting slots.
- Implications: The inclusion of these topics in future meetings could lead to focused discussions on key community issues, potentially influencing council policies and resource allocation.
Discussion on Housing and Highways:
- Decision: Members agreed to request more detailed reports on housing and highways in future meetings.
- Discussion: There was significant concern about the allocation of housing and the effectiveness of current highway maintenance strategies. Members requested specific metrics for highway repairs and updates on housing policies.
- Implications: Future reports on these issues will likely provide critical data that could lead to policy adjustments and improved service delivery.
Interesting Occurrence: During the meeting, there was a notable emphasis on ensuring that future discussions are well-defined and focused, with several members advocating for the inclusion of specific topics in the forward work program. This reflects a proactive approach to council scrutiny functions. The council meeting focused on reviewing the closure of the Cairo Heat Scheme, a project aimed at utilizing mine water for district heating. The discussion centered on the financial viability of the project, the reasons for its termination, and the lessons learned from its execution.
Decision on Cairo Heat Scheme: The committee reviewed the reasons behind the termination of the Cairo Heat Scheme, which included financial unviability due to high operational costs and business rates imposed by the Welsh government. Arguments were made regarding the substantial public funds spent ($3 million) with only a toolkit developed from the project's findings as a tangible outcome. The implications of this decision highlighted concerns about the management of innovative projects and the need for a more robust framework to assess financial risks and benefits before undertaking such initiatives.
Additional Information: The meeting revealed a divide in opinions among council members. Some members expressed frustration over the perceived wastage of public funds, while others defended the project as a necessary risk in pursuit of innovative environmental solutions. The discussion also touched on the potential future viability of similar projects if economic conditions change, suggesting a lingering interest in renewable energy projects despite the current setback.
Attendees
Documents
- Agenda frontsheet 22nd-Apr-2024 16.00 Subject Overview and Scrutiny Committee 3 agenda
- Minutes 25092023 Subject Overview and Scrutiny Committee 3
- Minutes 19032024 Subject Overview and Scrutiny Committee 3
- Minutes 26032024 Subject Overview and Scrutiny Committee 3
- 4. Caerau Heat Scheme SOSC3 April 2024 FINAL
- 6. SOSC Cover report Q3 Performance 2023-24
- 6a. Appdx A - COSC 210324 Q3 Performance 23-24
- 6b. Appdx 1 - Perf Dashboard Q3 2023-24
- 7. FWP Update SOSC 3 - 22 April 2024
- 7a. Appendix A - FWP - SOSC 3
- 7b. Appendix B - Action Sheet SOSC 3
- Public reports pack 22nd-Apr-2024 16.00 Subject Overview and Scrutiny Committee 3 reports pack