Subscribe to updates
You'll receive weekly summaries about Newham Council every week.
If you have any requests or comments please let us know at community@opencouncil.network. We can also provide custom updates on particular topics across councils.
Licensing (2003 Act) Sub-Committee - Tuesday 7th January 2025 10.00 a.m.
January 7, 2025 View on council website Watch video of meeting or read trancriptTranscript
Thank you. This is a meeting for Licensing Act 2003 Subcommittee of the London Parade Neum for a new premises license application for deserts, 344C, Jennifer Graves, Coral Springs, London, E7-HB-S. Please note that this meeting to be recorded will be available after the meeting on the Council's YouTube channel. In accordance with the Code of Conduct, Member's Code of Conduct, the three councillors on your committee today are required to declare any relevant interests on any matter being considered at this meeting. I have no interest to declare this meeting. I have no interest to declare. No interest to declare. Thank you. I am the my name is Councilor Lee Wilson, I am the chair for this meeting for the upstate. Good morning, Councilor Jane Loughdhouse, representing Plasto South. Councilor Winston Vaughan, representing Fortier South Ward. Case officers? Steve Jackson, licensing team. Colin Hunt, I'm the licensing officer. I am the chair for the license officer. Ian McConnell, Commercial and Environmental Health. Would you like to introduce yourself? I am the director of the company, Abdul Rahman. Anissa, did you get that? Can you say that again? And could you elevate your voice? The director of the company, Abdul Rahman. I am his brother, Adnan Ahmed. I am just giving them moral support. Okay. Can I take your name? Sayeed Ahmed. Sayeed Ahmed. Thank you. I will now briefly run for the procedures of this meeting. The licensing case officer will present their report and then move to representations from the responsible authorities, for example, the police trade and standards for environmental health. Members can seek clarification and so can be active, while the representatives on any matters. Today, we have representation of the council's license enforcement team, the commercial health team, and five residents. The license holder may then present their case. Finally, members make part of the resolution to liberate and private and exclude the person public, including the parties and their representatives. The clerk and the legal advisor will remain with the members to provide advice on the procedure and law. When the decision has been approved, when the decision has been reached, the meeting will reconvene and the decision of the subcommittee will be announced in public. Four written copies of the decision sent to the applicant or license holder, responsible authorities, and interested parties, usually within five working days. Parties who have taken part in this hearing may appeal against the decision to the magistrate's group within 21 days. As this is an administrative hearing under the 2003 Act, we are not trained lawyers, so we rely on the legal advice from our legal department. And Mr. Vendek. Thank you. I would like to inform all parties that will base their decisions on written and oral submissions. The clerk will take minutes of the meeting. Would you like to introduce yourself? Marilisa, you're safe. Thank you. If anyone in the chamber wishes to ask a question during the meeting, I would ask them to raise their hand and wait to be invited to speak. I would also like to ask that the mobile's be silenced or switched off. And I will now ask the case officer to present his request. Thank you, Chair. Excuse me. The members of the licensing subcommittee are asked to hear and determine a new application for premise license for deserts 334C Romford Road for escape. The applicant is a deserts limited and any valid representations that have been made. An application for a new premise license was received by the licensing authority on the 25th of October 2024. This was advertised at the premises and in the local newspaper. A copy of the application is attached to Appendix A. The last date for representations for this application was changed to the 5th of December. But this was due to the premises notice not being displayed within the required time. The application is for the following late night refreshments Monday to Sunday 2300 hours to 0400 hours, with the opening times being Monday to Sunday 1400 hours to 0400 hours. The council's licensing enforcement team in their capacity of the responsible authority have submitted a letter of representation against the application on the grounds of crime disorder, the prevention of public nuisance and public safety. A copy is attached to Appendix B. The commercial environmental health team in its capacity as responsible authority have submitted a letter of representation on the grounds of prevention of public nuisance. A copy of their letter is attached to Appendix C. Five residents have made representations against the application on the grounds of the four license objectives. These are attached to Appendix D1 to D5. Where premises lie within a community of impact zone, there is a rebuttable presumption that applications for a new premises license or club certificate or variation in respect of such premises would normally be refused unless the applicant can demonstrate in their operating schedule that there will be no negative impact on one or more of the license objectives at the hearing members of the subcommittee would need to be satisfied that the applicant has demonstrated this, the community impact of the premises can only be considered where relevant representations are made. This means that if there are no relevant representations, the application must be granted, even if it's within the CIZ. Members of the subcommittee should know that each application within the CIZ needs it to be considered on its own merits and that blanket refusers cannot be made. Where the licensing authority decides to impose conditions on the license, whether in a CIZ or not, such conditions must be appropriate and proportionate for the promotion of the license objectives. Conditions should be clear and unequivocal. The Secretary of State has issued guidance to the licensing authorities, which they must have regarding coming out their licensing functions. Members of the subcommittee should know that copies of the guidance are available at meetings of the subcommittee. Alternatively, copies can be obtained direct from the committee clerk. Licensing authority might only depart from the guidance if they have good reason to do so. These premises does fall within a CIZ and a map of the CIZ is attached to Appendix E. The premises is applied for two temporary event notices on the 22nd and the 28th of October 2024 and are late tens on the 23rd of November 2024 to the 29th of November 2024. The applicant has responded to representations and provided additional statements and supporting documents, which include times and conditions. These are attached to Appendix F. Applying on the premises is attached to Appendix G and the area map and street field of premises is attached to Appendix H. Members of the licensing subcommittee are asked to hear the application, the representations of the license holder, any valid representation receive responsible authorities and determine the application. That concludes the culture. A couple of questions. Is there any CCTV with the representation of the residents? No, there was CCC mentioned in one of the representations, which was sent through to the licensing team, but the licensing team have not produced that for their evidence to date. Um, I'm not sure that could you get up some pictures for some of the labs? Yeah, for sure. Okay, so this is the premises in question here, um, deserts down, which is actually just off Rumpard Road, this is Westbury Road, but if I take you down from the top of the road here, um, so this is the golf garage. Right, so it's a petrol station. That's a petrol station, yes. McDonald's as well? McDonald's is just in the distance, um, you can just see the magic M, golden arches, um, obviously that's from Rumpard Road, so it obviously does say it's from Rumpard Road, but it's actually officially set down Westbury Road. Right. And we just go down here, it's a unit that's just on the right hand side, and that is the premises there. Right, so you've got, so it's in quite a heavy residential area. Um, it's a residential street, there's residential properties across the road and down the road, and also just above the property there is one, two, three, three storeys to me. Right. Um, and while I'm here, shall I show you a picture of the floor plan on the inside? Yes, please. Do you know what time that petrol station turns at the end of the road, at the end of that road shop? Um, that is a 24 hour, um, premises that does have, oh, I think I've actually got that open now. Sorry, it's still on the screen here. Um, the off license is 24 hours. Yeah, I've just got that next to me here. Would be a question you might ask. Um, yeah, it's 24 hour, uh, petrol garage with alcohol sales from eight till one, um, Sunday to Thursday and Friday to Saturday, eight till 2 AM with late night refreshments till five o'clock in the morning. Okay. Right. Thank you. While I'm here, um, the McDonald's itself is 2300 to 500 hours. I believe they do use the drive through, um, from a certain period and the other premises similar to this application. Um, which is further down the road. Um, it's candy floss. It's time for McDonald's again, isn't it? McDonald's is, um, till five o'clock. It's 24 hours, basically. Hmm. Um, it's another dessert premises, which is further down the road, which is 315 Romford Road. And that's candy floss crepery. Um, and their licenseable times here are 2300 till midnight. Um, we've got late night refreshments from 11 to 12. That's correct. That's, that's, yeah, that's, that's further down past battles. It's quite a distance, but as close as premises into terms of this, um, late night refreshment. Okay. Premises. Um, and then obviously this is the floor plan. Um, obviously main entrance from Westbury Road. Um, this is why it was a bit of a, it's on the borderline where the CIZ is. Um, because the entrance actually is on Westbury Road. Um, the actual premises is situated. Um, Bromford Road. It's, it just, it's like a crossover on the boundaries of where the entrance would be for that premises. But according to our CIZ check, it does. It is within CIZ. Yes. Um, so that's where the entrance is on Westbury Road. Obviously I've not been in here myself, but, um, obviously the main door, um, we've got freezers, a countertop. Uh, I believe they've got a kitchen or sink area in the rear. Um, and there's a second countertop and a teal area, uh, in the middle of the premises. Um, if you've got any further questions on that, then that might run for the applicant or the officers who may attend at the site. Who provides this amount? That's part of the application from the applicant. All right. There's some questions. Um, no, I think just one though, regarding the other, the petrol station and the office. There as they are all night. Are there any ASB problems around there? No, no. Well, that'd be a question for the police. Um, but, or, or maybe you might have some information on that, but fine on age. I have no information as apart from the representations that were received from the residents. Um, yeah, for giving you this. Um, on page 81, uh, where it's shown, but it's only seemed to be a small portion of that area. Could you expand on the CIS in terms of difference? Um, what it is, um, counselor, it's actually on the borderline of where the CIS area is. So part of the building is actually on Westbury road and part of it does form under the Bromford road. And it's literally half, half the buildings comes under the CIS and where the entrance is in Westbury road. It doesn't. So officially it still falls within the CIS, uh, because obviously we've done the check on the premises address and it does come under CIS area. Um, it seems to be complex. Unfortunately, it's quite on the boundary. So it's just one of them. Unfortunate. Yeah. It's such a, such a boundary. And it also normally depends where the entrance will be as well for, from our point of view. And yeah, we go by the address. So it does officially come under the CIS. Okay. Um, right. So in your report, they did that there was two tens, uh, one on the 22nd, 29th of October. And so late tens, August 23rd of November to 29th of November. Um, was that tens granted? Yes. All the tens were granted. Yes. Okay. And was there any complaints, um, that had come through to the licensing team from that tens, on those two tens? Or those two tens? You know? No, no. I know of them. Um, can you give me the times, um, that the tens were, were asked? I can look it up. Yes, please. I'm just going to have to stop sharing my screen. No, it's really slow. Okay. Let's come back to your chair. It's not opening at a moment on the, but they come from it. Um, okay. So first tens. I've got a few pages to scroll through. Yeah. It was 2300 to four. Yeah. And that was on all the tens that they applied for. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Let me just, um, I just mentioned, um, that, uh, the last date of representation for this application is challenge to people for this. And this was due to, notice, notice not being displayed within a required time. What is required time? and how was she made aware of this um during the consultation period um the blue notice has to be displayed at the premises for 28 days consecutively and also within the local newspaper within 10 working days of the application coming in the newspaper advert was done correctly but the blue notice wasn't displayed when our officers went out and visited the premises and who actually initially puts that notice up that'd be done by the applicant right and it's applied by who um well they would normally do that themselves obviously the information that they apply for would include the dates times um obviously naming the premises who's applied for the application a list of like whether it's late night refreshments whether any alcohol and the times to and from that they apply for with the last day of representation to be displayed for any residents uh to obviously making representations um when the officer did visit the premises there was no display of the notices that he found um so that was reported to the applicant and the applicant rectified that but because of the time period we had to extend the last day of representation all right i have no questions for you thank you very much are there any questions from you started regarding speaks have you got any questions regarding reporting to the stern bed out yeah that's fine we'll move on um um regards to the recent application for princess license it deserves three four four c rogford road for escape uh council license seemed like representation this application as a responsible offering on the grounds of crime disorder prevention of public movements and public safety that is requesting provision of late night refreshment from 11 p.m till 4 a.m seven days a week a warning that was issued on the fourth uh to the premises for non-compliance as they were providing late night refreshment without a license issued by the local authority evidence since this was taken by officers on the licensing team uh pc attack warning letter excuse me listed as deserts warning that uh police here to have screenshots of delivery platforms smarts desserts uh delivery events uh the director responded to the the morning letter on the 20th of october denying that the business sold any hot food after 11 pm and listing the definitions of the license in that 2003. police attached the director's response 10th and 10th 24. uh an officer from the licensing team responded to mr rahman via email and said evidence of hot food being able to be purchased after 11 p.m this year attached uh sj email on sja on the 15th of october uh a resident emailed the licensing team regarding a number of issues with this premises officer spoke to the resident who raised a number of different complaints the licensing officer contacted the relevant department after the invitation the resident then forwarded a number of images relating to the premises and the effect in the area police attached 23 10 24 complaint on the 27th of october 2024 a complaint was received from a separate resident regarding this premises police attached 27 10 24 uh the council licensing team along with the placing health team have worked very hard to eradicate any social behavior any social activities occurring in the ciz area close to this premises and having a premises operating at these times could result further increase of anti-social activities disturbance these present premises lie within 10 meters of a former formative impact zone and there's reputable presumption that the applications for a new premises license in respect of such premises would normally be refused unless the applicant can demonstrate their operates impact on one or more of the licensing objectives selling in late night and early into the morning at times other businesses are closed is also likely to attract anti-social behavior and lead to an increase in littering noise and noise issues for local residents the entrance to this business is on a residence residence which is westbury road east 7. should a license be granted i would want the committee to consider the impact of this business to local residents and reduce the operating hours during the week where residents should be able to have um undisrupted rest during the night on behalf of the local the council the license authority is a responsible authority i'd like the i'd like to ask the members of the subcommittee to consider this letter of representation thank you just regarding the the complaints because i think the ones we've got here are in november november but there were complaints during is it the 23rd of october and 27th of october during the tens is that right uh one of them was during the tens you know the complaints during the tens you know what are you looking for um 23rd of october 27th october i've seen the letters on the 7th of november 19th of november and the 20th of november and the 25th of november do you want me to read out the 10 dates sorry you want me to read the 10 dates again the dates that they had tens or that's the second lot of the tens isn't it is it yeah that's one on the 22nd to the 28th of october yeah and the other one was on the 24th of november uh to the 29th of november yeah yeah and the complaints are on the resident they're dating they said they had the tens yes sorry that's less of the complaints from the representation from the residents she wants to know the date of the sorry what dates were yes it was because the 23rd of october that um shane has referred to on the page 30 yeah 23rd of october and 27th so that's within the tens isn't it yeah page page 67 67 so page 67 there's a complaint sent to the licensing team on the 27th 27 27 but it's sent at 8 48 a.m so the 10 started at what time did the tens start uh the tens was from maybe from 2300 till but then again the premises might have been open from two o'clock in the afternoon so yeah but obviously the times that they applied for was from 2300 to oh 400 hours yeah so that one is related to the tens isn't it it it appears so yeah there haven't been any other tenors before have there not not before our contact with so while we're on the project to tens and there was a tens put in for november 23rd of november yeah um myself and police officers ended the address um early hours of the morning on 23rd uh it's about a whole course for the night um the tens didn't start so it would have been the night of the 22nd and the business was i upgraded um 22nd into the 23rd it lost the tens didn't start at all 10 o'clock at night on a different bird right and that tends was to include obviously to include pot who you're just supposed to i walked in and asked for waffle yeah mr rama was in and then i identified myself somebody then we know who each other were yeah um he had a bit of discrepancy about the tents so he had the tents in in the bike uh tents but it wasn't valid because it was it was yeah 24 hours before yes sorry counsel just going back to the 27th complaint the email sent in at 8 48 a.m and that they needed 10 started at 11 p.m on that day so the complaint seems to have come in before they then started um it just may be a coincidence that the residents sent it on the same day in which the 10 was due to start but that note on the 27th they were trading after so that complaint that came on the 23rd probably to do with that okay for the 27th yes yeah yes yes yes yes i replied uh via email and and over the phone so a conversation with both complainants um and via email as well just sort of rounded up the synopsis of what talked about um and what they were going to complain about okay thank you okay um how did it come to your attention that they were in breach or non-compliance of the licensing act 2003 what actually brought them to onto your radar so uh i started with this team in 24 24 and part of my role was to start off checking late night refreshment because there's a list with a list of nurses that i'm operating this is one of the places um which is why they got a letter um and yeah and then they got that's when i sent off the original warning letter to them saying if you're in breach this you need to and this warning lesson was the first of the 10th yes okay um at what time um have you been to the premises specifically so that was on the 22nd november i physically went there half 12 when i believe it was um i can't be dates before that and the premises closed uh usually opens up like three four in the afternoon or three four in the afternoon before we didn't have only doing yeah work then yeah so they're open late night right but it's been more than once that you've been when they've been trading after no just the ones just the ones first time i went in in the 22nd all right um um you've noticed that mr harran has sent in some further documentation with regards to this case with some questionable conditions but it's quite comprehensive yeah yeah does that have any of your um um uh yeah uh uh um uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh Yeah, I just want to know how long the premises have been operating top my head over a year. Over a year. Not much more than that year. And the same times to pour in, but not alerted, you haven't been alerted because you were checking. I believe there was historical complaints or noise complaints, but nothing really to do with this. It was only really once we, I noticed that they were going to make sure they were going to that license. And we're going to call them all about. Thank you. I think Mr. Roman's response to that said it was open till 3 in the morning and that he didn't need an license at that time. Okay. Um, yeah, so page 84, with regards to, um, from your drivers and electric motorbikes or electric cycles, collection and you've got, uh, there's no outdoor seating. You've actually physically been into the premises. Yes. Is there a toilet there? Not that I've seen. Not available for customers. Right. So in your opinion, where do the staff and customers? I don't know the answer to that question. You've seen also that he sent a picture on page. So when you went into the premises page 97, you did not see this. picture of a. Do you know if you've got a basement? And they haven't got a first floor. The plan was laid out. Yeah. It's exactly just one floor. It is a mirror image of that. So that the plan is, it needs flipping over and that's the correct layout. The door's on the left as you go in, not on the right. If everything's correct in the plan, apart from it's the door. Yes. Um, and on the 22nd that you visited, we've got pictures of cars outside. Like, did you see any of that whilst you were there? No, it was, it was just myself and, uh, Officer Waxford walked in. There was no cars parked waiting for. Or motorbikes or cycles. Were there groups of people standing around? So it was relatively quiet. Yeah. Um, what about customers? There wasn't a queue of customers. There was just myself. Um, and I believe there was. With the middle, Mr. Rahman. Oh, I just said that. And then you turned up. Yeah. Yeah. Another guy. There were three of us. So there was staff inside. Um, but yeah, there was no customers. And so in terms of Uber or deliveries? No, there was no sign. No, no, no. I saw in that. No. Was there 15 minutes? Yeah. Only for five minutes. There was nobody there. Not a high turnover. Thank you. Um, I noticed that the police haven't put in a rep. But the residents have mentioned ASB and fighting. Is that correct? Counselor? Yeah. I did see that. But yes, they didn't put in a rep. So do you believe that maybe residents' observations or what's going on around there would be slightly heightened? Possibly slightly heightened. But, um, they're also, they, they live there. They're always there. They're going to see a lot more than, than I'm sitting on a 15th visit or five minute visit. So, um, in the information, the, the residents of Newham are not great for reporting every issue. And we know that is, that's a thing in Newham. So I'll tell you about the problems, but I've got a pen to paper and official work. And considering this is within the CIZ zone, do you feel that this particular area is a high, I don't know, high impact area? Because there's a, there's, is it a nightclub? If you go to the bottom road, you've got the petrol station there, which is naturally a noisy element all by itself. You've got a quite a busy main road. Um, then you have on the other side, it used to be a restaurant or a nightclub. With the white. On the corner? Yeah. On the other side. Is it a? Yeah, there's a, there's a late night place there. And then round the corner, we've got club 19 down Upton Lake. Is that one? No. Yeah. You talk about the, the old girl, the little bit of the scaffold. Yes. Yeah. The exterior. The exterior? Yeah. No, no. No, that's the huge, that place. Near the, near the police station. Well, literally opposite the petrol station, they're not closed. Yeah. And so that's closed? Yeah. Nothing. Right, okay. There's no other premises apart from the ones that Steve named earlier that has a late night refreshing in that location. Yeah. Right. So, um, I noticed that, um, um, sent in a letter, uh, with regarding his observations on what he classifieds as hot food. Um, and he quoted the license in 2003, um, demonstrated that he wasn't selling hot food. Can you just give me some context in that? And your, because if I remember you've wrote back a letter to him. Yeah. So I've gone. A complete rundown. What actually is the definition? Yeah. So, sorry, do you want to read off his letter? Yes. So this is, uh, the 8th of October of 2024. Licensing team at the Town Hall. This serves, um, from Desserts Limited. Uh, thank you for your letter through the 4th of October of 2024. We wish to clarify that our business does not engage in the sales of hot food or hot drinks. Uh, for consumption on or off the premises as defined under the License Act 2003. As such, we believe we are not conducting any license or activities. Our price was solely involved for preparation and sale of dessert items, uh, which are provided to online customers during the hours 11pm and 3am. During this time, our premises is most open mostly for delivery only services. Furthermore, we have implemented stringent guidelines for delivery drivers to ensure they operate with huge consideration of the local residents, emphasizing respect and care of the neighborhood. For your convenience, we have outlined the relevant definitions of the License Act 2003 Delo. Late Night Freshman. As defined under the Act, this refers to the provision of hot food or hot drinks to the public for consumption on or off the premises between 11pm and 5am. Hot food or drink. Food or drink is considered hot if it's heated on the premises or elsewhere for the purpose of being consumed above ambient air temperature. It can be here on the premises after, after supply. It then goes into extraction system. Since we do not serve hot food or hot drinks, we do not use the extraction system at all during the night and therefore there is no issue with overnight noise. Please confirm whether you agree on interpretation for the no premises licenses required for our business under the current current regulations license Act 2003. Yours faithfully, Abdul Rahman, Director for and on behalf of Desert Swimming. So. Prior to that was good afternoon, Mr. Rahman, regarding 344 C. Rugby Road. For your letter, respond to our officer's warning letter in relation to late night refreshments at your premises. Having looked into your website and delivery platforms, I can confirm you do require a late night refreshment license at your premises as you're offering hot food and drink, hot donuts, crepes, waffles, pancakes, hot churros, chips and jacket potatoes, and various other hot food products, which you are providing after 2300 hours. I've observed that these are readily available from your website and delivery platforms, and an order of the above could be, could have been placed last night after our further investigations into your letter response stating that you did not provide this. I've attached evidence of the menu and online orders, which clearly show you a program provided hot food and drink via the current delivery platforms attached evidence in above document. As you are providing hot food and drink for consumption on and off the premises, which will include customers sitting down to eat, walk in, take away orders, and deliveries between the hours of 2300, no 500. As per your website, you are training from 2300 hours to own 400 hours. You will require to hold a valid premises license and with a license out of free. I strongly advise that you stop selling hot food and drink after 2300 hours until you have a valid license in place. Also, you can apply for some temporary event notices during this time and whilst your application is being processed by a 28-day consultation period. More information on temporary events can be obtained from my website or via emailing on offices.licensing.gov.uk or I would be happy to discuss these with you. I've tapped a link to our website for you to apply for a premises license. If you require any assistance in completing an application or would like pre-application advice, that service is also available to you and we'd be happy to assist you further. You can also obtain your own solicitor or licensing agent to assist you with your application. Website link to the application and pre-application advice below. If you have any questions or queries, you can contact me via email or on the below contact number, by regards. Thank you. And this was stated when? I believe it was the day after the letter arrived. The day after the letter was received, a response was made. Totally, the 9th of October. And then when he put in for the tents, he was asking for the hours of 200, 300 hours to support the morning to sell hot food. I've got any further questions. Can I ask any further questions? Yes. Can I ask for? I don't think so. I just want a question. Okay. I think there's a photograph on page 98 of the agenda. It just shows a white speck of, on the right hand side, a kind of bright light. Could you describe what that is, please? Page 98. Sorry. No, yes. I can't go. I did this, this was the ones that's coming from you. Yeah. Perhaps the applicant can answer this question. Yeah. In the meantime, I'll have a look. Okay. No, don't mind. We'll come, sorry. Not soon. Sorry. Okay. Okay. Okay. Page 98. Do you have a door or window or something? And it's the one. Okay. Can you, like, show us, like, because we have no numbers here. Okay. Have you got a agenda or is it just on the laptop? I'm not just trying to find it right now. If you like the same question. Thank you very much. Excuse me. Yes, thank you very much. Yes. Yes. That's the toilet, yeah? Yes. At the back. Not so much. That's the one in the where else. That's the picture of the toilet. The back side, which we used for the door from the petrol station, we have a separate The toilet has two doors, one from the shop, but that one is closed because we use the back side door. I know it's not what you went there to look at, but did you by any chance notice what the state of the area around was? Was there a lot of litter, a lot of rubbish? No, I can't remember. You didn't notice? I know it's not what you went there. I just thought. Turn my mind away from rubbish. Yes. Now, have you any questions? Yeah. I just have a question. In the monthly number, there were like four complaints made by the residents. So the one was Alam Gir Alam, the other one was Busha Beekam, and the one was so... Data protection? I hadn't... Could you... No, just quite simply, I think the question was whether we can state the names of the persons who have made representation against the application and addresses, and I said, so long as they've been written into the licensing authority, asking not for it to be redacted, and that's a test that the licensing authority would have applied. Given that that's not happening in these, what I'd say, proceedings by hearing, it's okay for names and addresses to be mentioned. Okay. Right. Please, if you could just slow it down because we haven't... So the four complaints were made in the month of November, yeah? Right. So we had a meeting with the residents. We just sit in the car. I told you last time you came. So they told me that we have withdrawn the state, withdrawn the thingy, like we have emailed the council that we're going to withdraw it. So I just want to confirm that they told me that we have sent the mail, that we don't have any problem because they'd asked me to negotiate. They said, we just dim the light and put the half-shedded down. So we're going to email the council that we don't have any problem. You can open till four. Right. So have residents emailed your licensing team to withdraw their representations as far as you know? I believe I'll receive one email. Okay. What was it? I'm not seeing questions. I think it was the times of the temporary vendor. Yes. 23 to 4, yeah, we did do that. Sorry, Chair, just for clarification on your question, there has been no representations that I've received that anyone's withdrawn. I think Shane might be talking about a complaint or something along them lines, but no representations have been withdrawn officially. Any of the five personal students. That's correct. Anything, Shane, that you want to add? Not like I can see here. No? Sorry, I'll just double checking in case of. No, I've got one. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Was there any other questions you would like to ask? No. Okay. Thank you. Ian. Ian, would you like to turn? Ian. Bush and environmental health team need to make a representation. Respect to this application in relation to the subject of prevention of public nuisance. The applicant seeking license for late night freshman until 4am every day. The nearest president of this shop. We've recently received complaints from two households about noise from the premises. The first complaint received on the 22nd of August. Vice the following. I previously wrote to the relevant department regarding, you asked the dessert shop on my street, residential street. The business is still operating till late hours in the morning. This is getting really ridiculous now. Firstly, there shouldn't even be a dessert shop on the residential street. I don't actually know what it will take for the shop to close before midnight. The shop's licensing hours need to change. When a business like this is open until 3 or 4am, customers come into the shop very late. The issues the residents have to face, noise, rubbish on the street, moped noise, people making noise, people making noise, antisocial behaviour, groups of people hanging around on foot and cars. Does the council understand the effect it has on residents of Westbury Road? How does the council permit such licenses on a residential street for a shop like dessert shop to operate on the street in the first place? I hope this matter can get resolved ASAP and submit numerous complaints previously. If no action is taken immediately, effectively, then the residents have no option but to take legal action. So the workers are sleeping in the shop. Further complaints received on the 20th of November this year, last year. Dear council, I'm living on top of ice cream shop on Westbury Road. Can't sleep because of the noise coming from the ice cream shop. I speak to the owner so many times they don't listen to me. The shop is always open until 6am in the morning. Me and my wife have to work in the morning. We are sleeping early and always we have to wake because of the noise. Can we please ask council, ask the shop to close at 12am. Weekend, Friday and Saturday, we don't have a problem with the shop opening late. This is happening for more than three years now. Please council help. Thanks. That's the end of that complaint. I'm concerned that the operation of this premises has resulted in complaints from local residents before an application has been made. And I'm concerned that should a license be granted, they will continue to cause a nuisance to local residents. The application does not satisfactorily address the residents concerns in relation to litter and delivery drivers. In addition, referral has been made to the council's food team in relation to allegations of staff sleeping in the shop and inadequate provision of toilet and hand washing facilities. That's on behalf of the commercial environment health team, just to make a formal representation in respect to this application. Again, going back to the. Applicants. Information that he sent him, which is page 84, regarding waste. New nations, signage, and various different post conditions. Has that alleviated any of your concerns? To a certain extent. I think it has addressed, as far as they can, you know, asking drivers to switch off their engines and do litter picking things will alleviate to a certain extent, but it is quite a residential street. It's very easy for public or drivers to make noise that disturb residents. Do you believe noise emanating from there comes strictly from the premises itself alone? No. No, I would think that there are probably other other causes of noise as well. People using that street passing through or has been some issues for street drinks. Notice. There will be great. Right. And obviously residents may associate any noise with that particular premises. So, yeah, it's possible. And you visited the premises. I visited the premises on a number of times, actually. So 25th of August last year. I went there at 17 minutes past midnight. Staff were inside, clearing up. There was no one outside, no noise or ASB. There was one car with the lights on parked outside. Didn't appear to be trading. They just appeared to be clearing up. They couldn't be trading. A further visit was made on the 29th of October. Um, that was at midnight. So 26th of October. There was one car and motor and one motorbike outside. Um, no noise or ASB. Um, and then we visited on the 19th of November. Um, we went into the premises with no start toilet inside. There were no, there's no speakers, so they can't play any music. There was no bin outside the premises. They advised us that was being replaced as the lock had been damaged. Um, was that a commercial bin? Commercial bin, yeah. Um, and then we visited on the, on the, uh, 30th of November. At, uh, 10 to 11 in the evening. Um, the bin had now been provided. So that was, that was satisfactory. Um, member of staff we spoke to. So they usually have access to a toilet, uh, via a rear door, which they share with, uh, the premises next to the golf garage. Um, but there'd be in a water leak. And that route was unusable. Um. However, the, uh, food team who we may prefer to, uh, have confirmed that they're satisfied. That they've got access to a toilet. I mean, the sanctuary arrangements are. Um, and also, I think they made some recommendations. Yeah, they said on the 30th of November. Staff have access to the toilet. Direct access under repair. Um, general cleaning needs to improve. Staff are advised to regularly change gloves and wash hands. Um, and staff have been advised to wear protective clothing. And after the 30th and this, this letter that went out to them or just to your, that's what the food hygiene team have advised as has taken place. So they had a copy of that. And they've done a visit to the premises given advice directly to. Lovely. And then after 30, if you've not been back. Uh, yeah, I haven't been back since then. All right. Okay. Um, I mean, yes. Yes. Relating to what one of the complainants said. It made numerous complaints. And, um, so I wondered if you had any record of. Yes. Previous. And why you visited on the 25th. Uh, what? Why, why I visited on the. 25th of August, which was prior to Shane's. Yeah, because we had, we had previous complaints. Right. So the first complaint we had. Was on the 22nd of August. So we visited in relation to that. Uh, on the 25th. Um, but we've had previous complaints prior to that in 20, in 23, 2023 and 2022. All right. Um, they've been in operation over a year. Sorry. They've been in operation. They've been in operation for a couple of years. Yeah. And what, what was the nature of those complaints? Similar, similar sorts of issues. Yeah. Uh, and they were investigated and. We couldn't find any, uh, anything we could actually take any action in relation to. Right. And the hygiene elements, what, what the, um, hygiene visits. Was that. Related at all to complaints or was it just. Uh, yes. So we, we, uh, the allocation staff were sleeping on the premises. We referred through to the food safety team. And also, um, the fact that the premises didn't have a toilet within it. Um, they told us they had access to a toilet, but, um, uh, weren't able to. Uh, weren't able to show us on our, one of our visits. So, um, we were a bit concerned about that. So we made a referral to the food team. We went there and were shown access and were satisfied that it was. It was acceptable. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for all. Any questions? Um, yes, if you don't mind. Um, on this is nine, um, halfway down the page, it states, so we have recently complaints from two councils about noise from the panelists. It's first complaint received on the 22nd of August 2024. Now it's stated in the evidence that it's been happening for three years. So does that mean that we don't have them down on local plates and to see all but these two that's mentioned here in the evidence? Um, yeah, we, we, we've investigated them, but if, if there's not evidence of, of stuttering, nuisance, or actionable antisocial behavior, um, there's little action we can take. Very often it's very difficult to prove these, these sorts of things. Okay. Okay. That's fine. Thank you. Um, what are your views on the hours they've asked for? I would say given that it's in a quiet residential street, I would have thought an earlier closing time would be more appropriate to limit the amount of noise, potential for noise. Um, bearing in mind there's a petrol station there and the 24 hour off license. So, have you been aware of any disturbances or any complaints or anything around noise or? Not, nothing. Nothing else in Westbury Road, no. Hasn't come your way. Um, okay. I have no further questions. Um, has anyone got any questions for Ian? Oh, no. Ian James. It's awesome. Yep. Right. Please. Yeah. So I just want to mention, I just want to mention the concern that there was a change of ownership on first of July, 20, 24. Yeah. Before someone was trading someone else. So we bought the shop on first of July. So once we were aware that the shop don't have a license, so we started working on it before someone, the show was open in 2021. So there was a change of ownership on first of June, 2024. So like we are trading from last like six, seven months. So once we were aware that we need a license, then we suddenly applied. But before we were unable to know that what was happening, what was going on. So. Right. So just that I'm clear. Right. So there was a change. Who owned the prices before? Uh, there was, uh, what was it? Was it also a cake shop, a dessert shop? There was a dessert shop. And you came to ownership on what day? Uh, first of July, 20, 24. And then you said, what happened thereafter? Uh, uh, the council made us, uh, that you need a, uh, Primsys license. So then we start working on it. So we apply for the temporary one notices. We got the pros. Then we apply for the main, uh, Primsys license. So, yeah. So once we were aware, then we start working on it. So, yeah. Okay. Okay. So they've only had it in their possession since July. July 1st. Sorry. Just, it might help. I've got companies house up. Um, so Mr. Cashier Arslan, uh, incorporated the company on the 22nd of July, 2020. He resigned on 24th of June, 2024. Uh, and that's when Mr. Abdul Rahman, uh, was appointed as the director of the company. 24th of June, 2024. So he's taking the company over this year. Uh, this year, sorry. Last year. Just on the back of that, did you have any relation with the past owner? No. Uh, as the residential, a lot of residential mentioned that when I have a meeting with them, they told that we were having a problem with the last owner. So they mentioned this to me. They were saying that we have a problem because, you know, the warehouse at the back of the shop, that one is owned by his own brother. His name is Adam. So they told me that we were having a lot of problem with the old owners. So we were unable to know that you are the new owner. Okay. So that's why they asked me that we have sent the email to the console that we don't have any problem. I don't know. We're going to get to you in a second. Right. So no more questions for the environmental team. Yes. All right. This is your number of opportunity to present to your side. Um, so take your time. Okay. Slow down. Sorry, Steve. Steve just, um, helpfully reminded that, to just say that you have read the residents' representation. Thank you, Steve. Yes. So, uh, council of the house, have you read, uh, I have indeed. This is the five. Yes. I have. What's the decision? Have you read and received the five residents' representation from the students? Okay. So just so it's noted, and myself, um, and received the five residents' representation. Thank you, Steve. Right. So moving on. Would you like to present your... Uh, yes. So, uh, I just want to also let, uh, council know, uh, that are eaten safe, which I go, the pool, which is very less, like, for example, for the month of November. Sorry. Okay. Um, take your time. Speak louder. Sure. And... That's our first time, so I've never been... It's all right. No, sorry. Just to speak. Uh, so in the month of November, our eaten sale was eighteen hundred and sixty-five. So, which shows that we are not selling, like, too much and not eaten. Like, we go, like, test for a whole month. And if you go towards December, we have made just, like, two grants for a month. So this shows that we are, we don't have any, like, a lot of eaten customers. So if, like, a lot of residential mentioned that their cars are coming, bikes are coming. So it means that's a very, let's say, like, two, three customers a day. That's every sale. Like, every sale we are making, you can say, like, eighty, eighty points a day. And that's not a lot for, like, you know, eaten sale. Is that including your online presence? No. It's just people walking. Yeah, that's walking. Walking. That's it. So, and the rest, like, we also sent the appendixes that a lot of them mentioned that we don't have a bin. We provided a proof to the council by mentioning the bin. And they're saying there are a lot of litter on the road. We also put by the picture sending them. And, yeah. So, and even if there was a problem with someone living upstairs. So, as I told before that they had a meeting with me, we were sitting in a car. Even I got the textbook as well. That they text me that we all are withdrawing the complaints to the council. They text me on WhatsApp. So, yeah. That's all. That's all. That's what I want to say. How many texts did you receive? Or how many messages on WhatsApp did you receive? Of course, there is a one main guy off the street. His name is Mu. Yeah. M-double-o. Yeah. Sure. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, he is leading like the whole street. Like you can say he's admin. All right. So, he's representing. Yeah. All of that. So, yeah. Why not? Name of this resident who's leading. His name is Mu. Mu. Yeah. M-double-o. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Sure. Our advisor, we also saw. Yeah. That's fine. Why didn't we get to see the phone logo? So, gratis. It's okay. Where is the phone? The car. Maybe his phone is in the car. Oh. Yeah, not the phone. Yeah. Yeah. So, maybe his phone is in the car. Oh, yeah. The other phone. uh maybe on another phone i'm gonna send you as a email often yeah okay just for um completing it's a matter of procedure i take it that everyone's happy for this to be forwarded on yeah yes yes i just go the screenshot in my other phone and that one is in the car if you want me to bring um i will send you an email if you want though i go like two phones so that one is in my other phone that one is in the car all right yeah but do you have it on email here or is it two different docket two different things no i could have uh the whatsapp you know the text yeah that one is my other phone that one is in the car and what's the email no he's saying if later on like i will send the email yeah if you want to call the screenshot yeah okay that would be appreciated so that could be noted as well um all right so right so you have nothing further to say why we should deliver this late night refreshment license of course uh normally are like 80 sale is after like 11 not for our show but for all of the dessert shop because people start eating desserts after their dinner so even we uh gave proposal to the console that was uh we asked the name brother whatever you want to do us we will do but they were happy as i told you i put the what's the proof so so it's just i want to say this because our lot of sale is after like well it's our first business just like i just want to say this so we are brothers at the time it's like quite busy we have no any profit like yeah the work start after night 11 4 11 to till late late night we got the deliveries so it's literally busy after night so if we close early our sales impact and it's more like running business and yeah okay all right so let's start so the residents have been um up in arms and said that they've had to be putting up with us for the last three years we now realize that you've only had the home system in your possession for the last couple of months yeah for them yes okay um so they are still concerned about uh rubbish in the streets they're still concerned about people hanging around laughing and making noise and there's disturbances and they're quite concerned about this to date these these representations only came in last week so obviously something's still not right on that stretch of road outside your building or alongside so what are you what steps are you putting in into place to alleviate that particular problem uh so uh sorry yeah so we have put the bin as well which is shown in the picture the commercial yeah so even we mentioned the picture if you just have a look that there's a google map we're showing there is no litter outside the shop so even sometimes we see that the people the residential areas they put their bin in front of our shop i don't know why into towards our bin the people and we also said them that don't do this but they repeat it a couple of times and they click the pictures and send it to you and they have the problem with the previous owner but they're thinking that there is the same owner and oh that's why they are like doing like complainings and it's a one guy who is like a couple doing a couple of complaints all the different like uh residents are doing this can i add something yes please if you um so um thank you very much since opening of the shop in uh in july everything that they have done and we have done we have complied we've done our best to comply with the regulations uh straight away we applied for the late license we applied for the uh the waste bin that's there there used to be a nightclub right opposite there and it's a commercial parade the residents are upstairs but it's a commercial play commercial there's as they said that there's a 24-hour license there's a petrol pump 24 hours it's a one-way street the gentleman who's leading the the complaints he is he's got a house there and all the illegal activity takes place there right okay um he cannot go down this okay fine but you know he's the one who's a leader and on he and everyone relies on him or this person okay this person is the one who leads this and he wants these things closed so you know there's nobody to see what's going on there we have done everything possible to adhere to all the regulations and if we are if we have there's something that we haven't done we promised the council the officers and the environment officers that we will comply with all the regulations there all right um so you're in support but are you guys related no no we are not related but i've just come up because you're friends all right so uh you've talked about smoking that um now what about the complaints about uh noise from the motorbikes the delivery people people driving up the wrong way of the street to come and park outside and come in and get cakes and stuff what are your views on that they never come from the wrong side they always come from one way system but they're because you know they can't park on the main road in rumford road they just tend to park there and as as you mentioned to the very little portion of that business is take away and and we've told the res the the drivers and the um and the car owners to switch off the even with no idea no idle written inside the shop they visited uh like the instructions about the noise and like we have you have to be like no noise and you have to switch off the engines we are mentioned in the shop uh in front of our door to follow these instructions okay some in the shop confused um the gentleman said a little while ago that this is a little issue of your business for the drivers to come in is that what you said yeah most of that is that they do they just come pick up it's ready they just go but if they have to wait we've told them to switch off the engines they don't leave it idle they're doing that now okay so if you only have a little bit of people come in during the day and you make what do you say it was 80 pounds 80 for a whole day in 24 hours walking walking customers very less we have no walking trail like too much sorry only the drivers come sometimes even they park on the petrol station no 90 of your business is online orders online orders yeah even now like a lot of motorbikes they park on the petrol pump because on the uber we just mentioned in the note like when for example somebody pick up the order they can see a note so on the devon note we just mentioned that park your bike whatever you are doing on a petrol pump so you've got just eat uber eats and you deliver you know delivery and you've put all these messages on yeah that's right so these cars that the residents um are flying sits outside double parked outside making noise where do you think they're coming from or what are they doing because you must see them they come for uh that off license that uh you know they're basically for the off license they take bring uh to get the um the drinks from there for us because it's only 80 pounds in 24 hours they don't come and we have told our um the drivers to pick up the uber drivers and justy to park the park the uh uh scooters um away from there right in front of the on rumford road with the petrol station so they don't have they just walk in on page one one two there's a picture of the actual room itself could you show me where the off license is it's in the court it's in the corner the gulf petrol station 24 hours there is no separate one it's within the gold petrol station there is a vape shop as well on the corner like yeah if you see the third one show the first one is our shop the next one is a barber and next to the barber there's a vape shop there's a vape and lots of people came for the vape as well yeah and that is basically the vape shop it's not us we've got 80 pounds in 24 24 hours who come to pick up with the cars so the vape shop is always they come to pick up cigarettes a lot of toys and like uh groups come there for like their own in enjoyment and freshman because it's like quite earlier and they think that they all come towards uh our shop the people also park their cars late night hey this they stay in the cars and making noise they are not concerned with our shop like nothing to do with the desserts and to imply that they have something to do with it because we are open the lights are on that that is not it's irrelevant that's got nothing to do with us ours is mainly the delivery drivers and we've asked the drivers to park the carriages and they walk they park the car or whatever it is because they don't have to go through one-way system there if they park there it's easier convenient and they just walk but 20 yards pick up the stuff and go okay um counselor um yes a couple of things you said most of your sales um delivery and and uh uber eats and so on most of them are after 11 pm is that right yeah what sort of quantities but i know no two days are the same but what sort of numbers of drivers would be coming along on numbers of sales actually uh we have no like after 20 minutes one driver coming picking up the order it's not randomly like uh we have no been such a busy time like the orders are coming like after half an hour after however like it's in this whole period we only uh done a couple of orders and the drivers are not coming in the group they are like one by one coming after hour like uh it's a time distance period in this so there wouldn't be a great need for them to wait we mentioned when the order is done we make it ready and then they notify the uber to drive and then they come and they go they have no even way to on the shop like the order yeah it's a good idea were you going to say something on that yeah so i just want to confirm that if i show you the summary of uber that's only like 1400 so by this you can like see that how much busy we are like 1400 for a month for uber so like not a lot of drivers are coming that's for this one that's just a summary for the uber that's quite interesting that's the latest one that's in what one day no in a month that's for you yeah yeah okay perhaps you can just just mention counselor jane often you can ask about the times what time do they come and when is the last delivery exception yeah it's just asking yes yes so you've got delivery as well yes yes we go 69 69 point summary for just week for this week and i can show that one as well and what sort of um let's say you just say mainly after 11. up to what time you know i mean suppose suppose um this is for granted suppose we were brought you back to two o'clock for instance what sort of difference would that make to your sales uh like you know when is your when is your peak time you get a lot of sales in not too much but um you know on the weekend weekend is busy hour like friday saturday saturday uh the normal day is fine like on two o'clock if we we have no much difference like 300 or like 150 pounds difference like this it's not a big deal like but on the week saturday and sunday all your business no problems sorry the weekend saturday yeah yeah and sunday and there you're still getting customers at four o'clock or three thirty no the walking customers only you know left coming i mean orders i mean there's all this yeah oh yeah so we are getting orders like like 3 30 like four somewhere around but it's it depends like sometimes when people are hungry they order till four like sometimes they like don't it's like depends but normally we get orders back till four we have also the summary on the google when you open our business it's coming the summary of the how busy we are like it's showing the graph of our like time period but you're hoping obviously to pick up on this trade i mean that's why you're in business yes at the moment you're saying it's not minimal but it's like just a normal wave that goes normally yeah yeah so let's just go back counselor just yeah it's fine it's fine back in the time so you've sent in these uh additional um conditions uh so you said we're advising our late night operating hours as follows monday through to friday 11 p.m to 3 a.m saturday to sunday 11 p.m to 4 a.m yeah and then you've got after 1200 hours on any day the shop will not be open to the general public and services will be limited to online order collections only so if someone placed an order a customer placed an order not an uber driver or delivery and he knocks on the door will you let that customer into your premises to collect his order and then walk back out no no no we don't how would he get his order we have a very more the uber order for the like customer collection i phoned you and i said listen i want an order i want this this this and this and i'm coming to collect it myself because you're saying after 12 o'clock on any day the general public i'm general public so i've placed an order so how would you get my order to me if i said i'm coming to pick it up so we will give the time to the customer for example order is going to take like five minutes or we're going to take like 10 minutes so we're going to give the time to the customers once it's ready you will know we just give them the order like we're not letting but don't give them the order yeah we'll get not let them no yeah that's good right um two things one one relating to the order soon um are you imagining that are you thinking of extending the hot food i know this this has been an issue but um what about because the the license is from hot food isn't it um are you thinking of extending on that is this going to increase your sales no that's what we got even this no this one like that's like because our shop is not a big shop it's just like a small shop take the shop so if we like increase the menu we need to increase the machines like you know the machines like the appliances so we can't we don't have a much more space that's what we got we are making like because this space we are making this money from these machines because we don't have much more space because we don't have much more space in the shop you would have things that were hot but very less point like waffles and traps and like this they're just like microwave organs like yeah you don't need to extract no like nothing no fun it's just like microwave no they they run on electric electric one kind of they're like microwave as microwave ovens swells okay thanks and i did want to ask something else about me um a double thing really the complaints that were made to you about the previous um uh owners yeah what sort of complaints were made we don't know we really don't know after applying this license we know that uh they have the problem with the previous owner and we checked also uh on the licensing uh app or on the google that they also applies for that a couple of times i think the car shareers learn and he they also receive some complaints even uh even though uh he said that he visited officer you're saying since you've been there you've not received a residence complaint directly to you no no directly like these complaints we we get that directly after that after the yes but since you've been there you can see the president has not come in and said to you i'm unhappy with this or that so the after this companion was made you know the move guy i'm talking about the guy he came towards me and he told me that i want to talk with you so he came and talked with me they he called all the neighbors we sit in the car so we just have a chat this after this nothing no one's like came to us to us talk with us so we just came he said so basically after that incident nothing has happened no complaints there were no complaints made to cancel or to us and they don't complain at all now they they have not addressed any of these we have addressed their issues we won't make noise that and now that it's all clear they told us that dim your light and put your half down so we they said we are happy if you put the half year down and you dim the light we don't have any problems so we've done the same thing we are tested with them and yes even that's why i was saying i go to prove like when i what's about that my phone is like in my car if you want to bring i can bring now if you want me to bring perhaps we can have a look at this now just in case there's something that you might want to ask following that as opposed to looking after and then have questions it may be fine yes yes it just may okay so what i'm going to do is i'm going to adjourn so you can go to the car and bring this message back to us that's fine it's better i think instead of just in case there's a follow-up question yeah so i'm going to adjourn for 10 minutes that's right all right um don't go too far just from the next door just on the next one 10 minutes um so if you can get back for all right thank you this is now um thank you very much for going to get that that correspondence between you and the residents um so would you like to actually offer one um we are happy for it to be tabled um are you happy for that to be tabled yeah wonderful okay so if you can just talk us through the correspondence between you and the residents leading up until the agreement of yesterday so after having a meeting on 19th november in a car i saw the move on 20th november in the meeting he text me that no problem let me know what the council say okay everything everyone withdraw the complaint so you should be fine so plus i have more idea so after he's saying uh there was a complaint for the shayda begum who is his sister yeah so i send him the screenshot so uh here in the chat uh he's mentioning that yeah that was my sister she withdraw statement so i send him the screenshot he's saying no no that's not possible this was few weeks ago also please show me how the council sent the name it's not possible her to make complaint yesterday because i told her to withdraw the complaint so so maybe it's this one withdrawing the complaint so after he says don't stress because we agree yesterday so this one is on 20th november because we were sitting in the car on 19th of november so so here he says like i said to you yesterday you agree we agree everyone happy now sorted you need to make sure brother you stick to your agreement so this was agreement which was made on 19th of number we were sitting in the car with the all the residents neighbors so he's saying you need to make sure brother you stick to your agreement so if you think about it these problems are small problems you can solve it and i believe you will everyone is happy now so don't stress everything will be all right yeah so this agreement that even kind of need to stick to is what exactly so they gave me like uh to negotiate negotiate on two things the first was that dim your shop light and the other was that you put your half shutter down so i'm still after 11 o'clock yeah you're supposed to put the shutter half up here down yeah more deliveries yeah but it's no walk-in trade yeah no working trade okay thank you yeah just in terms of advice which i'll probably be giving to you later anyway but just so everybody knows we have to still go by the fact that no representations were withdrawn but of course you will take into account what's been said today and apply appropriate appropriate weight in terms of consent deliberations okay thank you uh councillor did you want to go on with regards to deliveries yes just for the procedure how you how you manage delivery so somebody puts in an order i'm sorry for the delivery or whichever they put in a deliver an order um and then how do you arrange when they're going to come and pick it up how long does it take you to get the food ready do you then turn or come in 15 minutes or do you call them back how's the procedure so that's for the general uh customers yeah like working customer for i mean see online online for the uber eats the when for example when we receive the order the uber is give you time like for example it depends on the order for example if the order is big the uber gave you time that we will we are giving you 18 minutes you have to prepare this order in 18 minutes but for example if the order is ready before if you mark it ready the writer will came order ready he will go so there's no point that he will be standing in the shop because we came to the specific time so if even if the order is ready before we mark it ready the driver came and he take it and if it's not ready the order the uber gave you like specific time like 18 minutes 20 minutes the maximum is like 15 minutes so rather don't came like they never came this never happened that they came and they're standing in the shop before the order is not ready so they came they pick up the order they're gone and even though they we are as i told you i will be mentioned the note so whenever the writer pick our order for the desserts he will see that the shop says there are notes for the shop that park your bike park whatever you're doing to live on the petrol pump so so they're parking out there on the petrol pump not in the front of shop so you've instructed them when they come to pick up their orders that they cannot come to the shop they must park at the petrol station yeah a lot of them are actually put that in the when you type in do you actually instruct them not to park outside the shop yeah yeah but some of the drivers like from like some of the a lot of people because it's a one way road yeah they can't come all the way around so they a lot of them are parked on the petrol pump not actually uh some of the drivers are permanent like they they are permanent yeah like we collect our shop orders so they are so like as a friend so we already told them that you have to be look after our residents and you have to follow these instructions so they say we are agreed and they just like uh more more uh drivers are on bicycle so this is not noise noisy or like so they park just on the petrol lock for two minutes they come and pick the order and on the main road they go all right is there anything that we may have missed on this this order um perhaps you could ask chair um obviously with your leave if a driver doesn't follow the instructions that's been set is there any consequences or taking into account what the residents concerns are so uh like uh if uh most of the drivers like they only come when the order is ready like they are no come like 10 minutes before and stay in the shop or outside they are talking on the phone or waiting for the order not like this but what if they did leave kid on the block because those and someone did and you've told them once um but he's done it again what what measures would you please make sure this this does not happen so we can do like this we will not give the order to them rider that's simple so next time we will not come so we will we have a game we can cancel it like or we can stop them and they never come here right uh yeah so yes so they're the step that you put into place yeah yeah yeah you guard your requests okay thank you so one final clarification um i think just a moment ago you said a lot of your drivers are on bicycles yeah do you have a percentage of can you explain to the members out of i don't know 10 orders that you get how many of the drivers will be on bicycles and malpets and cars so they have an understanding of which transport actually we cannot say that but some of the providers we know them then they pick up the order they have the bag of like big bags of bicycle they come and they say bicycle are you talking electric scooters or electric electric mix like electric some of the like but a lot of like a lot of drivers use the bicycles because nowadays like a well in delivery they don't make much but from 100 you can say 50 or like 60 they came on bicycle an original bicycle with no original bicycle the one you know the the like the bicycle the that's the one thank you to just just yeah just to give you some context yeah yeah thank you can i just think please as i said earlier it's a it's a one-way road so they you know these by uh the delivery uh drivers avoid going all the way around so it's easier convenient for them to park there and and when they do if we feed that in future they don't listen to us they still come and park outside they usually we press the button yeah it's ready they just can't pick it up because they have to go to another make money they just come they don't sit there they don't stand there for more than half a minute or one minute pick it up and then they just leave but we if you if you know after all this committee meeting we can stress on them that none of the drivers you know come and park in front of the shops they will always park obviously we can't monitor them 100 but we'll do our best we'll follow the instructions that they should park in the garage and then they just walk it's only one minute walk anyway and it's convenient for them it'll take them five minutes to come down and just if it's there they can't they just can't come through one-way system anyway okay all right thank you did you want to continue that discussion is about staffing levels so how many staff and employ while the business is open to the public uh there is only like we have two people sorry two for two persons yeah all the time not all the time we have ships half a time uh one one person each working in a shop and when the ships and the other will come like uh we open two o'clock and two two till seven o'clock one person is working after seven to till night the other one come and sometime even we also help them one at a time um sometimes they're busy they're probably one of these guys going you know taking extra stuff on fridays or saturdays but it's mostly it's one stuff one stuff at a time so that one person does everything cook the food and distributed yeah it's like it's not busy desserts like we have to make it everything like it's mostly ice cream and milkshakes yeah so the cakes we already like we go the made we just take we put them in a bag there's nothing to make like for the milkshake we just made the milkshake even the ice cream we just put the scoop in the cup so all the things are ready to make like ready ready to move like you have not prepared um just want to go back to your operating schedule oh uh cctv uh you sent okay so um so just so i'm clear there's no indoor or outdoor seating this is tv no i'm talking about seating for now no no no no so no one can come in and sit down at any time and outside even in the summer you don't put tables and chairs not at all okay um you said the door shall be kept closed after 11 p.m except for immediate access and egress of couriers for order collections so the agreement with the residents was that you will dim the lights and pull the shutters down at what time 11 11 so that all corresponds that's fine um yeah yeah right so you've had the commercial bin outside blended with the lock yes and have you got a receptacle kind of been outside for the people that do come during the day to put their rubbish if needs be like a dusting thing um because uh we can't put anything outside on the footpath but we've got one bin inside the shop inside the shop for customers if they do come in front of those and we if you enter in the shop yeah in the front of uh like inside the shop yes all right um just making sure that i have so you and you have got contract with newham to pick up the garbage and they've got idling or delivery vehicles outside the premises and driver's channel based voices and all loud music um so just very quickly then um on your operating schedule which is on page 20 for gender you've got the license shall monitor the license sea shall monitor noise levels outside nearby dwellings how do you intend to do that could you repeat that please yes the license fee yourselves shall monitor noise levels outside of nearby dwellings how do you intend to do that um but we'll be lost the um environment one person in the shop and someone's making noise outside and what have you is that how is that one person going to monitor noise pollution outside or asd behavior outside of the premises if he's only going to be yeah but um as we said earlier that he's not busy all the time and it's not friday saturday friday saturday we have two people there friday saturday there'll be two people three people yeah we can we normally we are two people on the weekend every weekend it's two people right so one one we can say it's one sunday and friday saturday it's always friday saturday it's always two people especially in the evening especially um you've gone up uh you said you've put up a notice for delivery drivers to observe strict guidance and we've discussed that at levels now in the front of the shops no it's okay uh protecting children from harm you don't get it do you get a lot of children coming into your shop as i told you not a lot of eating customers because like only like we are making 80 per day for dating customer that's life it's not so much okay all right i don't think i've got any further questions for you um right would you like to ask any questions question okay any further advice to give one happy no only from the licensing point of view in terms of the proposed times just elaborate on what they actually are now proposing in terms of when times during the week in the weekends would be an ideal can i thank you for the committee and your chair that um as we said earlier the business hours people like to have dessert is after 11 after dinner daytime is hardly anything and that's the time to at least meet our expenses for the daily of the weekly um my sincere request to all of you is to allow us approve and authorize us to friday saturday and sunday if you could authorize us to open till four o'clock in the morning and we will follow your strict instructions guidelines and weekdays from monday to thursday if you could give us two three whichever is uh your office uh your offices um are happy with but it's friday saturday the sunday that we request that if you could please authorize and approve grant us up to four o'clock opening uh monday to thursday um up to two o'clock or three o'clock and that will at least make our ends meet you know you know this situation at the moment mcdonald's is open 24 hours uh you know the other shops are open so we really have to work hard to at least let this business continue as it is and we are not making a lot of money like mcdonald's you're not um okay thank you very much thank you very much we will have a decision today so don't go too far and we will call you when we're ready to be thank you very much coming back we have your decision and coming back we'll get out to you having heard all submissions written on all including those residents the licensing subcommittee have decided to grant the license the last possible hours will be monday to thursday 2300 hours to 0 200 hours friday and saturday 2300 hours to zero 400 hours and sunday to monday 2300 hours to zero three hundred hours additional conditions relating to cctv courage finally last order and the telephone number placed on the shop front will be detailed in the decision letter the following decision letter and the reasons will be sent to the applicant within firework today thank you uh all parties who have taken part in this area may appear against this decision to the magistrates court within 29 days good luck with your business thank you so much thank that's been fun thank you have fun
Transcript
Thank you. This is a meeting for Licensing Act 2003 Subcommittee of the London Parade Neum for a new premises license application for deserts, 344C, Jennifer Graves, Coral Springs, London, E7-HB-S. Please note that this meeting to be recorded will be available after the meeting on the Council's YouTube channel. In accordance with the Code of Conduct, Member's Code of Conduct, the three councillors on your committee today are required to declare any relevant interests on any matter being considered at this meeting. I have no interest to declare this meeting. I have no interest to declare. No interest to declare. Thank you. I am the my name is Councilor Lee Wilson, I am the chair for this meeting for the upstate. Good morning, Councilor Jane Loughdhouse, representing Plasto South. Councilor Winston Vaughan, representing Fortier South Ward. Case officers? Steve Jackson, licensing team. Colin Hunt, I'm the licensing officer. I am the chair for the license officer. Ian McConnell, Commercial and Environmental Health. Would you like to introduce yourself? I am the director of the company, Abdul Rahman. Anissa, did you get that? Can you say that again? And could you elevate your voice? The director of the company, Abdul Rahman. I am his brother, Adnan Ahmed. I am just giving them moral support. Okay. Can I take your name? Sayeed Ahmed. Sayeed Ahmed. Thank you. I will now briefly run for the procedures of this meeting. The licensing case officer will present their report and then move to representations from the responsible authorities, for example, the police trade and standards for environmental health. Members can seek clarification and so can be active, while the representatives on any matters. Today, we have representation of the council's license enforcement team, the commercial health team, and five residents. The license holder may then present their case. Finally, members make part of the resolution to liberate and private and exclude the person public, including the parties and their representatives. The clerk and the legal advisor will remain with the members to provide advice on the procedure and law. When the decision has been approved, when the decision has been reached, the meeting will reconvene and the decision of the subcommittee will be announced in public. Four written copies of the decision sent to the applicant or license holder, responsible authorities, and interested parties, usually within five working days. Parties who have taken part in this hearing may appeal against the decision to the magistrate's group within 21 days. As this is an administrative hearing under the 2003 Act, we are not trained lawyers, so we rely on the legal advice from our legal department. And Mr. Vendek. Thank you. I would like to inform all parties that will base their decisions on written and oral submissions. The clerk will take minutes of the meeting. Would you like to introduce yourself? Marilisa, you're safe. Thank you. If anyone in the chamber wishes to ask a question during the meeting, I would ask them to raise their hand and wait to be invited to speak. I would also like to ask that the mobile's be silenced or switched off. And I will now ask the case officer to present his request. Thank you, Chair. Excuse me. The members of the licensing subcommittee are asked to hear and determine a new application for premise license for deserts 334C Romford Road for escape. The applicant is a deserts limited and any valid representations that have been made. An application for a new premise license was received by the licensing authority on the 25th of October 2024. This was advertised at the premises and in the local newspaper. A copy of the application is attached to Appendix A. The last date for representations for this application was changed to the 5th of December. But this was due to the premises notice not being displayed within the required time. The application is for the following late night refreshments Monday to Sunday 2300 hours to 0400 hours, with the opening times being Monday to Sunday 1400 hours to 0400 hours. The council's licensing enforcement team in their capacity of the responsible authority have submitted a letter of representation against the application on the grounds of crime disorder, the prevention of public nuisance and public safety. A copy is attached to Appendix B. The commercial environmental health team in its capacity as responsible authority have submitted a letter of representation on the grounds of prevention of public nuisance. A copy of their letter is attached to Appendix C. Five residents have made representations against the application on the grounds of the four license objectives. These are attached to Appendix D1 to D5. Where premises lie within a community of impact zone, there is a rebuttable presumption that applications for a new premises license or club certificate or variation in respect of such premises would normally be refused unless the applicant can demonstrate in their operating schedule that there will be no negative impact on one or more of the license objectives at the hearing members of the subcommittee would need to be satisfied that the applicant has demonstrated this, the community impact of the premises can only be considered where relevant representations are made. This means that if there are no relevant representations, the application must be granted, even if it's within the CIZ. Members of the subcommittee should know that each application within the CIZ needs it to be considered on its own merits and that blanket refusers cannot be made. Where the licensing authority decides to impose conditions on the license, whether in a CIZ or not, such conditions must be appropriate and proportionate for the promotion of the license objectives. Conditions should be clear and unequivocal. The Secretary of State has issued guidance to the licensing authorities, which they must have regarding coming out their licensing functions. Members of the subcommittee should know that copies of the guidance are available at meetings of the subcommittee. Alternatively, copies can be obtained direct from the committee clerk. Licensing authority might only depart from the guidance if they have good reason to do so. These premises does fall within a CIZ and a map of the CIZ is attached to Appendix E. The premises is applied for two temporary event notices on the 22nd and the 28th of October 2024 and are late tens on the 23rd of November 2024 to the 29th of November 2024. The applicant has responded to representations and provided additional statements and supporting documents, which include times and conditions. These are attached to Appendix F. Applying on the premises is attached to Appendix G and the area map and street field of premises is attached to Appendix H. Members of the licensing subcommittee are asked to hear the application, the representations of the license holder, any valid representation receive responsible authorities and determine the application. That concludes the culture. A couple of questions. Is there any CCTV with the representation of the residents? No, there was CCC mentioned in one of the representations, which was sent through to the licensing team, but the licensing team have not produced that for their evidence to date. Um, I'm not sure that could you get up some pictures for some of the labs? Yeah, for sure. Okay, so this is the premises in question here, um, deserts down, which is actually just off Rumpard Road, this is Westbury Road, but if I take you down from the top of the road here, um, so this is the golf garage. Right, so it's a petrol station. That's a petrol station, yes. McDonald's as well? McDonald's is just in the distance, um, you can just see the magic M, golden arches, um, obviously that's from Rumpard Road, so it obviously does say it's from Rumpard Road, but it's actually officially set down Westbury Road. Right. And we just go down here, it's a unit that's just on the right hand side, and that is the premises there. Right, so you've got, so it's in quite a heavy residential area. Um, it's a residential street, there's residential properties across the road and down the road, and also just above the property there is one, two, three, three storeys to me. Right. Um, and while I'm here, shall I show you a picture of the floor plan on the inside? Yes, please. Do you know what time that petrol station turns at the end of the road, at the end of that road shop? Um, that is a 24 hour, um, premises that does have, oh, I think I've actually got that open now. Sorry, it's still on the screen here. Um, the off license is 24 hours. Yeah, I've just got that next to me here. Would be a question you might ask. Um, yeah, it's 24 hour, uh, petrol garage with alcohol sales from eight till one, um, Sunday to Thursday and Friday to Saturday, eight till 2 AM with late night refreshments till five o'clock in the morning. Okay. Right. Thank you. While I'm here, um, the McDonald's itself is 2300 to 500 hours. I believe they do use the drive through, um, from a certain period and the other premises similar to this application. Um, which is further down the road. Um, it's candy floss. It's time for McDonald's again, isn't it? McDonald's is, um, till five o'clock. It's 24 hours, basically. Hmm. Um, it's another dessert premises, which is further down the road, which is 315 Romford Road. And that's candy floss crepery. Um, and their licenseable times here are 2300 till midnight. Um, we've got late night refreshments from 11 to 12. That's correct. That's, that's, yeah, that's, that's further down past battles. It's quite a distance, but as close as premises into terms of this, um, late night refreshment. Okay. Premises. Um, and then obviously this is the floor plan. Um, obviously main entrance from Westbury Road. Um, this is why it was a bit of a, it's on the borderline where the CIZ is. Um, because the entrance actually is on Westbury Road. Um, the actual premises is situated. Um, Bromford Road. It's, it just, it's like a crossover on the boundaries of where the entrance would be for that premises. But according to our CIZ check, it does. It is within CIZ. Yes. Um, so that's where the entrance is on Westbury Road. Obviously I've not been in here myself, but, um, obviously the main door, um, we've got freezers, a countertop. Uh, I believe they've got a kitchen or sink area in the rear. Um, and there's a second countertop and a teal area, uh, in the middle of the premises. Um, if you've got any further questions on that, then that might run for the applicant or the officers who may attend at the site. Who provides this amount? That's part of the application from the applicant. All right. There's some questions. Um, no, I think just one though, regarding the other, the petrol station and the office. There as they are all night. Are there any ASB problems around there? No, no. Well, that'd be a question for the police. Um, but, or, or maybe you might have some information on that, but fine on age. I have no information as apart from the representations that were received from the residents. Um, yeah, for giving you this. Um, on page 81, uh, where it's shown, but it's only seemed to be a small portion of that area. Could you expand on the CIS in terms of difference? Um, what it is, um, counselor, it's actually on the borderline of where the CIS area is. So part of the building is actually on Westbury road and part of it does form under the Bromford road. And it's literally half, half the buildings comes under the CIS and where the entrance is in Westbury road. It doesn't. So officially it still falls within the CIS, uh, because obviously we've done the check on the premises address and it does come under CIS area. Um, it seems to be complex. Unfortunately, it's quite on the boundary. So it's just one of them. Unfortunate. Yeah. It's such a, such a boundary. And it also normally depends where the entrance will be as well for, from our point of view. And yeah, we go by the address. So it does officially come under the CIS. Okay. Um, right. So in your report, they did that there was two tens, uh, one on the 22nd, 29th of October. And so late tens, August 23rd of November to 29th of November. Um, was that tens granted? Yes. All the tens were granted. Yes. Okay. And was there any complaints, um, that had come through to the licensing team from that tens, on those two tens? Or those two tens? You know? No, no. I know of them. Um, can you give me the times, um, that the tens were, were asked? I can look it up. Yes, please. I'm just going to have to stop sharing my screen. No, it's really slow. Okay. Let's come back to your chair. It's not opening at a moment on the, but they come from it. Um, okay. So first tens. I've got a few pages to scroll through. Yeah. It was 2300 to four. Yeah. And that was on all the tens that they applied for. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, you mentioned in your reports that the last date of the representation for this application was changed to a paper for December, but this was due to the premises notice not being displayed within a required time. displayed within a required time what is the required time and how was she made aware of this um during the consultation period um the blue notice has to be displayed at the premises for 28 days consecutively and also within the local newspaper within 10 working days of the application coming in the newspaper advert was done correctly but the blue notice wasn't displayed when our officers went out and visited the premises and who actually initially puts that notice off that'd be done by the applicant right and it's applied by who um well they would normally do that themselves obviously the information that they apply for would include the dates times um obviously naming the premises who's applied for the application a list of like whether it's late night or freshmen's wherever any alcohol and the times to and from that they apply for with the last day of representation to be displayed for any residents to obviously making representations um when the officer did visit the premises there was no display of the notice that he found um so that was reported to the applicant and the applicant rectified that but because of the time period we had to extend the last day of representation so that's what we're going to do so thank you thank you very much are there any questions from you started regarding speaks have you got any questions regarding reporting to the stern bed out yeah that's fine yeah we'll move on um let's say anything you'd like to present so in regards to the recent application for the princess license it deserves three three four four c rogford road for escape uh council license it seemed like representation this application as a responsible offering on the grounds of crime disorder prevention of public and public safety that is requesting provision of late mark freshen from 11 pm till 4 am seven days a week uh a warning that was issued on the fourth uh to the premises for non-compliance in 2000 as they were providing late-night refreshment without a license issued by the local authority evidence this was taken by officers on the licensing team uh please see attack warning letter excuse me listed as deserts warning that uh police here tap screenshots of delivery platforms marks deserts uh delivery evidence uh the director responded to the let the boarding letter on the 20th of october denying that the business sold any hot food after 11 pm and listing the definitions of the license in that 2003 please see attached the director's response 10th and 10th 24. an officer from the licensing team responded to mr rahman via email and sent evidence of hot food being able to be purchased after 11 pm please see it attached uh sj email and sj order uh on the 15th of october 2024 um on the 15th of october 2024 from 11 pm until 4 am they see attached tents uh on the 24th october an email uh a resident email the licensing team regarding a number of issues with this premises officer spoke to the resident who raised a number of different complaints the licensing officer contacted the relevant department after the presentation the resident then forwarded a number of images related to the premises and the effect in the area police attached 23 10 24 complaint on the 27th of october 2024 a complaint was received from a separate resident regarding this premises police police attached 27 10 24. the council licensing team along with the placing health team have worked very hard to eradicate any social behavior any social activities occurring in the ciz area close to this premises and having a premises operating at these times could result further increase of anti-social activities disturbances these present premises lie within 10 meters of a formative impact zone and there's reputable presumption that the applications for a new premises license in respect of such premises would normally be refused unless the applicant can demonstrate their operation impact on one or more of the licensing objectives selling in late night and early into the morning at times other businesses are closed is also likely to attract any social behavior and lead to an increase in littering noise and noise issues for local residents the entrance to this business is on a residential street which is westbrook e7 should a license be granted i would want the committee to consider the impact of this business to local residents and reduce the operating hours during the week where residents should be able to have um undisrupted rest during the night on behalf of the local the council license authority and this capacity is a responsible authority i'd like the i'd like to ask the members of the subcommittee to consider this letter of representation thank you that's enough to have some questions um um just regarding the complaints because i think the ones we've got here are november but there were complaints during is it the 23rd of october and 27th of october during the 10s is that right uh one of them was during the 10s was during the 10s no the complaints during the 10s the 23rd of october the 27th october i've seen the letters on the 7th november the 19th of november and the 20th do you want me to read out the 10 dates sorry you want me to read the 10 dates again the dates that they had 10s or that's the second lot of the 10s isn't it is it yeah that's one on the 22nd to the 28th of october yeah and the other one was on the 24th of november uh to the 29th of november yeah yeah and the complaints are on the resident they're dating thanks so they had the 10s yes sorry that's less of the complaints from the representation from the residents she wants to know the date of the sorry what dates were there yes it was the because the 23rd of october that um shane has referred to on the page 30 yeah 23rd of october and 27th though that's within the 10s isn't it yeah did we have page page 67 67 so page 67 there's a complaint sent to the licensing team on the 27th 27 27 but it's sent at 8 48 a.m so the 10s started at what time did the 10s start uh the 10s was from maybe from 2300 to but then again the premises might have been open from two o'clock in the afternoon so yeah but obviously the times that they applied for was from 2300 to oh 400 hours yeah so that one is related to the 10s isn't it it appears so yeah there haven't been any other 10s before have there not not before our contact with them so while we're on the project to 10s and there was a 10s put in for november 23rd of november yeah um myself and police officers ended the address um early hours of the morning on the 23rd it's about a whole course for the night um 10s we start so it would have been the night of the 22nd and the business was i'm traded um 22nd into the 23rd they lost their 10s didn't start at all and then across my own bird right and that tends was to include obviously to include pot who you're just supposed to i walked in and asked for waffle yeah mr rama was in this survey and then i identified myself somebody then we know who each other were yeah um just had a bit of discrepancy about the tents right so we had the tents in in the bike tents it wasn't valid because it was it was yeah 24 hours before yes sorry council just going back to the 27th complaint the email sent in at 8 48 am and that they needed 10 started at 11 pm on that day so the complaint seems to have come in before the 10 started um it just may be a coincidence that the residents sent it on the same day in which the 10 was due to start but that note on the 27th they were trading after so that complaint that came on the 23rd probably to do with that okay for the 27th yes yeah yes i think yes and if i push up so knock them around i just want to know if the complaints were going to yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes i replied uh via email and and over the phone so a conversation with both complainants um and via email as well just sort of round it up a synopsis of what talked about um and what they were going to complain about okay thank you um how did it come to your attention that they were in breach or non-compliance of the licensing act 2003 what actually brought them to onto your radar so uh i started with this team in 24 and part of my role was to start off checking late night freshman there was there's a list with a list of nurses that i'm operating this is one of the firsts and which is why they got a letter it's one just coming in injuries and yeah this part um and yeah then i gathered some online evidence found that they're still trading size until 4am google online platforms right so yeah and then they got that's when i sent off the original warning letter to them saying you're in breach this meter and this warning lesson was for the first of the 10th yes okay um at what time um have you been to the premises specifically so that was on the 22nd november i physically went there about 12th night i believe it was um i can't believe dates before that and the premises closed uh usually opens up about three four in the afternoon or three four in the afternoon before we didn't have any doing yeah work then yeah so they're open late night right but it's been more than once that you've been when they've been trading after no just the ones just just the ones yeah first time i went in 22nd 22nd all right um you've noticed that mr ramon has sent in some further documentation with regards to this case with some questionable conditions but it's quite comprehensive yeah yeah does that alleviate any of your um um most of it apart from the the operating times would be my concern i mean sorry sorry of 83 basically it's a bit of real coaching 3am yeah yeah um i just want to join if it's known how long the premises have been operating top of my head over a year oh okay not much more than a year and the same times to pour in but not alerted you haven't been alerted because you were checking i believe there was historical complaints or noise complaints but nothing came up really to do with this so it's only really once we uh i know we're still going to make sure that i'm going to that license and we're going to call them all about thank you thank you i think mr romans first which response to that said well they said it was he was open till three in the morning but yeah and that he didn't need a little license at that time okay um yeah so page 84 um with regards to um whether you've heard from your drivers and electric motorbikes or electric cycles collection then you've got uh there's no outdoor seating you've actually physically been into the premises yes is there a toilet there not i've seen not available for customers right so in your opinion where do the staff and customers i don't know the answer question you've seen also that he sent a picture on the page pictures of the bathroom what page is there anyone oh i don't say email response so when you went into the premises page 97 you did not see this picture of a do you know if you've got a basement and they haven't got a first floor the plan was laid out yeah it's exactly just one floor so that the plan is it needs flipping over and that's the correct layout the doors on the left as you go in not on the right way if everything's correct in the plan yeah apart from it yes um and on the 22nd that you visited we've got pictures of cars outside like did you see any of that whilst you were there no it was just myself and uh officer we walked in there was no cars parked waiting for or motorbikes or cycles or there were groups of people standing around so it was relatively quiet yeah and what about customers was there there wasn't a queue of customers it was just myself um and i believe there was with the middle mr ramen oh i just said that and then you turned up yeah yeah there was a another boy another three of us so there was staff inside um but yeah there was no customers and so in terms of uber or delivery sorry no sign no no no i saw in that no i was there what 15 minutes yeah only for five minutes three minutes there was nobody there not a high turnover i noticed that the police haven't put in a rep but the residents have mentioned asb and fighting is that correct council yeah i did see that but yes they didn't put in a vote so do you believe that maybe residents observations of what's going on around them would be slightly heightened possibly slightly heightened but um they're also they they live there they're always there they're going to see a lot more than than i'm sitting on a 15th visit or five minute visit in the information that the residents are obviously the residents in newham are not great for reporting every issue you know and we know that is this is a thing you know i'll tell you about the problems but pen to paper and official and considering this is within the ciz zone do you feel that this particular area is a high i don't know high impact area because there's a this is it a nightclub if you go to the bottom road you've got the petrol station there which is naturally a noisy element all by itself you've got a quite a busy main road um then you have on the other side it used to be a restaurant or a nightclub with the white corner yeah on the other side is it a yeah there's a there's a late night place there and then around the corner we've got club 19 down upton lane is that one you talk about the the alcohol in the scaffold yes no no no that's just huge that from near the near the police station well literally opposite the petrol station and so that's closed yeah nothing right okay and there's uh no other premises apart from the ones that steve named earlier that has a late night refreshing in that location yeah right so um i noticed that mr man um sent in a letter uh with regarding his observations on what he classifieds as hot food um and he quoted the nice films he cited some verses from my license in 2003 to you um demonstrated that he wasn't selling hot food can you just give me some context in that and your because if i remember you wrote back a letter to him yeah so i've got a complete rundown what actually is the definition yeah so sorry do you want to read off his letter so this is uh by the 8th october 2024 licensing team at the town hall this sirs um from desserts limited uh thank you for your letter through october 2024 we wish to clarify that our business does not engage in the silence of hot food or hot drinks uh for consumption on or off the premises as defined under the license act 2003 as such we believe we are not conducting any license or activities our price was solely involved for preparation and sale of dessert items which are provided to online customers during the hours 11 pm and 3 am during this time our premises is most open mostly for delivery only services furthermore we have implemented stringent guidelines for delivery drivers to ensure they operate with huge consideration of the local residents emphasizing respect and care of the neighborhood for your convenience we have outlined the relevant definitions of the license act 2003 below late normal refreshment as defined under the act this refers to the provision of hot food or hot drinks to the public for consumption or off the premises between 11 pm and 5 am hot food or drink food or drink is considered hot if it is heated on the premises or elsewhere for the purpose of being consumed above ambient air temperature it can be heated on the premises after the after supply the same clients it then goes into extraction system since we do not serve hot food or hot drinks we do not use the extraction system at all during the night and therefore there is no issue with overnight noise please confirm whether you agree our interpretation uh for the no premises license is required for our business some of the current current current regulations license act two for 2003 yours faithfully abdul rahman director for and on behalf of desert swimming so later part of that was good afternoon mr rahman uh regarding 344c robert road if you're a letter of response one is my officer's warning letter in relation to late night refreshments at your premises having looked into your website and delivery platforms i can confirm you do require a late night refreshment license at your premises as you're offering hot food and drink hot donuts crepes waffles pancakes hot churros chips and jacket potatoes and various other hot food products which you are providing after 2300 hours i've observed that these are readily available from your website and delivery platforms and an order of the above uh could be could have been placed last night after our further investigations into your letter response saying that you did not provide this i've attempt attached evidence of the menu and online orders which clearly show you are providing hot food and drink via the current delivery platforms attached evidence in above document as you are provided hot food and drink for consumption on and off the premises which will include customers sitting down to eat walk away walk-in takeaway orders and deliveries between the hours of 2300 no 500 as per your website you are training from 2300 hours to own 400 hours you will require to hold a valid premises license and with a license free i strongly advise you stop selling hot food and drink after 2300 hours until you have a valid license in place also you can supply you can apply for some temporary event notices during this time and whilst your application is being processed by a 28-day consultation period more information on temporary events uh can be obtained from my website or via emailing on offices at licensing.gov.uk no sorry licensing at newham diamond or i would be happy to discuss these with you i've tapped a link to our website for you to apply for a premises license if you require any assistance in completing an application or would like pre-application advice that service is also available to you and we'd be happy to assist you further you can also obtain your own solicitor or licensing agent to assist you with your application website link to the application and pre-application advice below if you have any questions or queries you can contact me via email or on the below contact number by regards thank you and this was dated when i haven't got a date at the bottom is i believe it's the day after the letter was received response was made totally in the the 9th of october and then when he put in for the tents he was asking for the hours of 2300 hours before morning to sell hot food i think there's a photograph on page 98 um of the agenda just shows a white speck of i'm on the right hand side of a kind of bright light could you describe what that is this page 98 i did this this was the ones that's coming from you yeah perhaps the applicant can answer this question yeah yeah i mean so i'll have a look okay yeah no don't mind look we'll we'll come say you can i'll see you sure look at it okay there you don't there you don't let you see door or window or something can you like show us like because we have no numbers here there we have no numbers here okay have you got agenda or is it just on the laptop i'm not just trying to find it one more if you like thank you excuse me that's the picture of the toilet of the back side which we use for the door from the petrol station we have a separate door yeah on the toilet yeah the other side of that oh I see this is on there too sorry the toilet has two doors yeah we have two doors one from the shop and but that one is close because we use the back side door okay we've got both two doors that's Becky's because he's in black and white is the actual door handle at the bottom and it's just the handle on the end of the video that's what I like so yeah okay um are there any questions for have you any questions oh sorry um I know it's not what you went there to look at but did you by any chance notice what the state of the area around was was it very was there a lot of litter a lot of rubbish no I didn't notice yeah I just have a question uh in the month remember there were like four companies made by the resident yeah so the one was along the other one and the one was so um data protection I hadn't could you no just quite simply up in the question uh was whether we can uh state the names of the persons who made representation against the application and addresses and I said um so long as they've not written into the licensing authority asking not for it to be redacted and that's a test that the licensing authority would have applied given that that's not happening in this in these what is their proceedings by hearing it's okay for names and addresses to be mentioned okay but please and if you could just slow it down because we haven't done so the four complaints were made in the month of November yeah all right so so we had a meeting with the residents so we just sit in the car I told you last time you came so they told me that we have withdrawn the state withdrawn the thingy like we have emailed the council that we're going to withdraw it so I just want to confirm that they they told me that we have sent the mail that we don't have any problem because they asked me to negotiate they said we just dim the light and put the half shadow down so we're going to email the council that we don't have any problem you can open till four all right so have residents emailed your licensing team to withdraw their representations as far as you know I believe I'll receive one email okay did you find anything what was it I'm not seeing the question I think it was the times of the temporary vendors yes 23 to 4 yeah we did do that um sorry chair just for clarification on your question that there has been no representations that I've received that anyone's withdrawn I think Shane might be talking about a complaint or something along them lines but no representations have been withdrawn officially any of the five personal students that's correct anything Shane that you want to add not like I can see here no so I'll just double checking in case of no I've got one but nothing all right thank you um was there any other questions you would like to ask okay thank you um Ian would you like to please Bush and environmental health team you can make a representation respect to this application in relation to the objective of prevention of public nuisance uh the applicant applicant seeking a license for labour aggression until 4am every day the nearest prison presidential of this um this shop 60 recently received complaints from two households about noise from the premises the first complaint received on the 22nd of august twice the following I previously wrote to the relevant department regarding you asked for the dessert shop on my street potential street the business is still operating till late hours in the morning this is getting really ridiculous now firstly there shouldn't even be a dessert shop on a residential street I don't actually know what it will take for the shop to close before midnight the shop's licensing hours need to need to change when a business like this is open until 3 or 4 am customers coming to the shop very late the issues the residents have to face noise rubbish on the street moped noise people making noise and social behavior groups of people hanging around on foot and cars does the council understand the effect it has on residents the westbury road how does the council permit such licenses on a residential street for a shop like dessert shop to operate on the street in the first place i hope this matter can get resolved asap as i made numerous complaints previously if no action is taken immediately effectively then the residents have no option but to take legal action so the workers are sleeping in the shop both complaints received on the 20th of november this year last year dear council i'm living on top of ice cream shop on westbury road can't sleep because of the noise coming from the ice cream shop i speak to the owner so many times they don't listen to me shop is always open until 6am in the morning me and my wife have to work in the morning we are sleeping early and always we have to wait because of the noise can we please ask council ask the shop to close at 12am weekend friday saturday we don't have a problem with the shop opening late this is happening for more than three years now please council help thanks that's the end of that complaint i'm concerned that the operation of this premises has resulted in complaints from local residents before applications has been made and i'm concerned that should a license be granted they will continue to cause a nuisance to local residents the application does not satisfactorily address the residents concerns in relation to litter and delivery drivers in addition referrals may be made to the council's food team in relation to allegations of start sleeping in the shop and inadequate provision of toilet and hand washing facilities that's on behalf of the commercial environment health team just to make a formal representation in respect of this application again um going back to the um applicants um information that he sent him which is page 84 regarding waste um new nation signage and various different proposed conditions has that alleviated any of your concerns to a certain extent i think it has addressed um as far as they can you know asking drivers to switch off their engines and do little things um will alleviate to a certain extent but it is quite a residential street um it's very easy for um public or drivers to make noise that would disturb residents do you believe all the noise emanating from there comes strictly from the premises itself alone no no no i i would think that there are probably other other causes of noise as well people using that street passing through or there has been some issues for street drinks and obviously residents may associate any noise with that particular premises um so yeah it's possible and you visited the premises i've visited the premises on a number of times so um 25th of august last year went there at uh 17 minutes past midnight staff were inside clearing up there was no one outside no noise or asb there was one car with the lights on parked outside um parked outside um didn't appear to be trading they just appeared to be clearing up but they couldn't be trading um a further visit was made on the 29th of october um that was at midnight so 26th of october there was one car and motor and one motorbike outside um no noise at asb and then we visited on the 19th of november um we went into the premises with no start toilet inside there were no there's no speakers so they can't play any music there was no bin outside the premises with they advised us that was being replaced as the lock had been damaged um was that a commercial thing commercial thing yeah um and then we listed on the on the uh 30th of november at uh 10 to 11 in the evening um the bin had now been provided so that was that was satisfactory um member of staff we spoke to so they usually have access to a toilet uh bar a rear door which they share with uh the premises next to the gulf garage um but there'd be in a water leak and that route was unusable um however the uh food team who we may prefer to um have confirmed that they're satisfied that they've got access to a toilet and the sanctuary arrangements um and also i think they made some recommendations yeah they said on the 30th of november staff have access to the toilet direct access under repair um general cleaning needs to improve staff are advised to regularly change gloves and wash hands and staff have been advised to wear protective clothing and after the 30th and this this letter that went out to them or just to your that's what the food hygiene team have advised as has taken place so right so they had a copy of that and they've they've done a visit to the premises given advice directly to and then after 30 if you've not been back uh yeah i haven't been back since then no all right okay um um yes relating to what one of the complainants said it made numerous complaints and um so i wondered if you had any record of yes previous and why you visited on the 25th uh what why i visited on the 25th of august which was prior to shane's yeah because we had we had previous complaints so the first complaint we had was on the 22nd of august so we visited in relation to that uh on the 25th uh but we've had previous complaints prior to that in 2023 2023 and 2022 we've been in operation over a year sorry they've been in operation they've been in operation for a couple of years yeah and what what was the nature of those complaints similar similar sort of issues yeah and they were investigated and we couldn't find any uh anything we could actually take any action in relation to right and the hygiene elements what the um hygiene visits was that related at all to complaints or was it just uh yes so we we uh the allegation staff were sleeping on the premises we referred through to the food safety team and also um the fact that the premises didn't have a toilet within it um they told us they had access to a toilet but um uh weren't able to show us on our one of our visits so um we're a bit concerned about that so we made refer to the food team who went there and were shown access and were satisfied that it was it was acceptable thank you thank you thank you um yes if you don't mind on page 69 um halfway down the page it states there we have recently complaints from two councils about noise from the first complaint received on the 22nd of august 2024 and over relief there is also a complaint received on the 20th of august 2024 now it's stated in the evidence that it's been happening for three years so does that mean that we don't have them don't look at place and you see all but these two that's mentioned here in the evidence um yeah we've investigated them but if there's not evidence of of stuttering nuisance or actionable anti-social behavior um there's little action we can take and very often it's very difficult to prove these these okay okay that's fine okay um um what are your views on the hours they've asked for i would say given that it's in a quiet residential street i would have thought uh an earlier closing time would be more appropriate to limit the amount of noise potential for noise bearing in mind there's a petrol station there and the 24 hour off license have you been aware of any disturbances or any complaints or anything around noise or not it not any nothing else in westbury road no hasn't come your way okay i've got a further questions um has anyone got any questions for ian please yeah so i just want to mention that uh i just want to mention the council uh that there was a change of ownership on first of july 2024 yeah before someone was trading someone else so we bought the shop on first of july so once we were aware that the shop don't have a license so we start working on it before someone the show was open in 2021 so there was a change of ownership on first of june 2024 so like we are trading from last like six seven months so once we were aware that we need a license then we said and we applied but before we were unable to know that what was happening what was happening what was going on so all right so just that i'm clear right so there was a check who owned the premises before uh uh there was uh what was it was it also a cake shop uh dessert shop there was a dessert shop and you came to ownership on what day uh first of july 24. and then you said what happened thereafter uh the council made us that you need a princess license so then we start working on it so we apply for the temporary one notices we got the pros then we apply for the main uh princess license so yeah so once we were aware then we start working on it so yeah okay okay so they've only had it in their possession since july july 1st sorry just it might help i've got company's house up um so mr cashier arsenal uh incorporated the company on the 22nd july 2020 he resigned on the 24th of june 2024 and that's when mr abdul rahman uh was appointed as the director of the company 24th to 2024 so he's taking the company over this year this year sorry last year just on the back of that did you have any relation with the past owner no as the residential a lot of residents mentioned that when i have a meeting with them they told that we were having a problem with the last owner so they mentioned this to me they were saying that we have a problem because you know the virus at the back of the shop that one is owned by his own brother his name is adam so they told me that we were having a lot of problem with the old owners so we were unable to know that you are the new owner okay so that's why they asked me that we have sent the email to the console that we don't have any problem i don't know if i have it we're going to get to you in a second right so no more questions for the environmental team that's all right this is your number opportunity to present to your side um so take your time oh slow down richard steve just um helpfully reminded that to just say that you have read the residence representations thank you see yes so uh council of house have you read uh i have indeed this is the five yes i have decision have you read and received the five minutes to representation from the students okay so just so it's noted and myself um and we so seemed to let the five representation thank you steve for the word right so moving on would you like to present your uh yeah so uh i just want to let the council know uh that our eating sale which i go the which is very less like for example for the month of november sorry okay um take your time speak louder so in the month of november our eating sale was 1865 so which shows that we are not selling like too much and not eating like we go like that's for a whole month and if you go towards december we have made just like two grants for a month so this shows that we are we don't have any like a lot of eating customers so if like a lot of residential mentioned that their cars are coming bikes are coming so means that's a very let's say like two three customers a day that's every sale like every sale we are making you can say like 80 80 points a day and that's not a lot for like you know you can say is that including your online presence oh no they're just it's just people walking yeah that's walking walking that's it yeah so and the rest like we also sent the appendix is that a lot of them mentioned that we don't have been we provided a proof to the council by mentioning the bin and they're saying there are a lot of litter on the road we also put by the picture sending them and yeah so and even if the there was a problem with someone living upstairs so as i told before that they had a meeting with me we were sitting in a car even i bought the textbook as well that they text me that we all are withdrawing the complaints to the council they text me on whatsapp so yeah that's all that's what i want to say how many texts did you receive or and we messaged it on whatsapp did you of course there is a one main guy of the street his name is moo yeah so he is leading like the whole street like you can say he's an admin all right so he's representing yeah all of that so uh yeah why not name of this uh resident who's leading his name his name is moo moo yeah m double o yeah sure i don't get a minute again our university also started they called me already i mean that's one uh maybe his phone is in the car oh yeah not the phone i'm gonna send you as an email okay just for um completely it's a matter of procedure i take it that everyone's happy for this to be forwarded on yeah yes i just go the screenshot in my other phone and that one is in the car if you want me to bring um i will send you an email if you want though i go like two phones so that one is in my other phone that one is in the car all right yeah but do you have it on email here or is it two different two different things no i could have uh the whatsapp you know the text yeah that one is my other phone that one is in the car and what's the email no he's saying if later on like i will send the email email yeah if you want to call the screen sure yeah okay that would be appreciated so that could be noted as well um all right so right so you have nothing further to say you know why we should deliver this late night refreshment license of course uh normally are like 80 percent sale is after like 11 not for our show but for all of the dessert shop because people start eating desserts after their dinner so even we uh gave proposal to the council that was uh we asked the name brother whatever you want to do us we will do but they were happy as i be as i told you i put the what's the proof so so it's just i want to say this because our lot of sales is after like well it's our first business just like i just want to say this so we are brothers at daytime it's like quite busy we have no any profit like yeah the work start after night 11 4 11 to till late late night we got the deliveries so it's literally busy after night so if we close early our sales impact and it's not like we are running business and yeah okay all right so let's start so the residents have been um up in arms and said that they've had to be putting up with us for the last three years we now realize that you've only had the home system in your position for the last couple months yeah for fun yes okay um so they are still concerned about uh rubbish in the streets they're still concerned about people hanging around laughing and making noise and there's disturbances and they're quite concerned about this today these these representations only came in last week so obviously something's still not right on that stretch of road outside your building or alongside so what are you what steps are you putting in into place to alleviate that particular problem uh so uh sorry yeah so we have put the bin as well which is shown in the pictures so even we mentioned the picture if you just have a look that there's a google map we're showing there is no litter outside the shop so even sometimes we see that the people the residential areas they put their bin in front of our shop i don't know why into towards our bin the people we also said them that don't do this but they repeat it a couple of times and they click the pictures and send it to you and they have the problem with the previous owner but they're thinking that it's the same owner uh and oh that's why they are like doing like complainings and it's a one guy who is like a couple doing a couple of complaints all the different like uh residents are doing this um can i add something yes please if you um so um i love the latter yes um thank you very much since opening of the shop in uh uh in july everything that they have done and we have done we have complied we've done our best to comply with the regulations uh straight away we applied for the late license we applied for the uh the waste bin that's there there used to be a nightclub right opposite there and it's a commercial parade the residents are upstairs but it's a commercial play commercial there's as they said that there's a 24-hour license there's a petrol pump 24 hours it's a one-way street the gentleman who's leading the the complaints he is he's got a house there and all the illegal activity takes place there right okay um he cannot go down this okay fine but you know he's the one who's a leader and on he and everyone relies on him or this person okay this person is the one who leads this and he wants these things closed so you know there's nobody to see what's going on there we have done everything possible to adhere to all the regulations and if we are if there's something that we haven't done we promised the council the offices and the environment officers that we will comply with all the regulations there all right um so you're in support but are you guys related no no we are not related but i've just come up because you're friends all right so uh you've talked about smoking that um now what about the complaints about uh noise from the motorbikes the delivery people uh people driving up the wrong way over the street to come and park outside and come in and get cakes and stuff what are your views on that they never come from the wrong side they always come from one-way system but they're because you know they can't park on the main road in rumford road they just tend to park there and as as you mentioned to the very little portion of that business is takeaway and and we've told the the the drivers and the um and the car owners to switch off the even with no idea no idle written inside the shop they visited uh like the instructions about the delivery driver noise and like we you have to be like no noise and you have to switch off the engines we are mentioned in the shop uh in front of our door to follow these instructions okay i'm in the shop confused um the gentleman said a little while ago that this is a little of your business for the drivers to come in is that what you said yeah most of that is that they do they just come pick up it's ready they just go but if they have to wait we've told them to switch off the engines don't leave it idle they're doing that now okay so if you only have a little bit of people come in during the day and you make what do you say it was 80 pounds 80 for only 24 hours walking walking customers very less we have no walking trail like too much sorry only the drivers come sometimes even they park on the petrol station in north 90 of your business is online orders online orders here even now like a lot of motorbikes they park on the petrol pump because on the uber we just mentioned in the note like when for example somebody pick up the order they can see a note so on the devon note we just mentioned that park your bike whatever you are doing on a petrol pump so you've got just eat uber eats and you deliver you know delivery and you've put all these messages on yeah that's right so these cars that the residents um are flying sits outside double parked outside making noise where do you think they're coming from or what are they doing because you must see them they come for uh that off license that uh you know they're basically for the off license they take bring uh to get the um the drinks from there for us because it's only 80 pound in 24 hours they don't come and we have told our um the drivers to pick up the uber drivers and justy to park the park the uh uh scooters um away from there right in front of the on rumford road with the petrol station so they don't have to they just walk in on page one one two there's a picture of the actual road itself could you show me where the off license is it's in the court it's in the corner the gulf petrol station 24 hours you see the actual it's within the actual there is no separate one it's within the gold petrol station there is a vape shop as well on the corner like yeah if you see the third one show the first one is our shop the next one is a barber and next to the barber there's a vape shop a lot of people came for the rape as well yeah and that is basically the vape shop it's not us we've got 80 pounds in 24 24 hours who come to pick up with the cars so the rape shop is always they come to pick up cigarettes a lot of boys and like uh groups come there for like their own in enjoyment and freshman because it's like quite early and they think that they all come towards uh our shop and the people also park their cars late night hey they stay in the cars and making noise they are not concerned with our shop like nothing to do with the desserts and to imply that they have something to do with it because we are open the lights are on that that is not it's irrelevant that's got nothing to do with us ours is mainly the delivery drivers and we've asked the drivers to park the carriages and they walk they park their car or whatever it is because they don't have to go through one-way system there if they park there it's easier convenient and they just walk but 20 yards pick up the stuff and go okay um yes a couple of things you said most of your sales um delivery and and uh uber eats and so on most of them are after 11 pm is that right yeah that's right what sort of quantities but i know no two days are the same but what sort of numbers of drivers would be coming along on numbers of sales actually uh we have no like after 20 minutes one driver coming picking up the order it's not randomly like uh we have no been such a busy time like the orders are coming like after half an hour after however like it's in this whole period we only uh done a couple of orders and the drivers are not coming in the group they are like one by one coming after hour like uh it's a time distance baby in this so there wouldn't be a great need for them to wait no no we we mentioned uh when the order is done we make it ready and then they notify the uber to drive and then they come and they go they have no even way to on the shop it's like the order yeah it's a good idea were you going to say something on that yeah so i just want to confirm that if i show you the summary of uber that's only like 1400 so by this you can like see that how much busy we are like 1400 for a market for uber so like not a lot of drivers are coming and that's for this one yeah that's just the summary for the uber that's quite interesting that's the latest one that's in what one day no in a month that's for you yeah yeah okay perhaps you can just just mention counselor jane often you can ask about the times what time do to come and when is the last delivery exception yes that's good yes yes so you've got deliverer as well yes yes we go 69 69 point summary for just week for this week and what sort of um let's say you say mainly after 11 up to what time you know i mean suppose suppose um um this um this is for granted i suppose we were brought you back to two o'clock for instance what sort of difference would that make to your sales uh like you know when is your when is your peak time you get a lot of sales in not too much but um you know on the weekend weekend is busy hour like friday saturday saturday saturday uh the normal day is fine like on two o'clock if we we have no much difference like 300 or like 150 pounds difference like this it's not a big deal like but on the week saturday and sunday all the business no yes sorry we can saturday yeah and sunday and there you're still getting customers at four o'clock or three thirty no the walking customers only you know left coming i mean orders i mean orders yeah oh yeah so we are getting orders like like 3 30 like four somewhere around but it's it depends like sometimes when people are hungry they order till they order like sometimes they like don't it's like depends but normally we get orders back before we have also the summary on the google when you open our business it's coming the summary of the how busy we are like it's showing the graph of our like time period but you're hoping obviously to pick up on this trade i mean that's why you're in business yes at the moment you're saying it's not minimal but it's just a normal wave that goes normally yeah yeah so let's just go back counselor just yeah no it's fine fine back in the time so you've sent in these uh additional um conditions uh so you said we're advising our late night operating hours as follows monday through to friday 11 pm to 3 a.m saturday to sunday 11 pm to 4 a.m yeah and then you've got after 1200 hours on any day the shop will not be open to the general public and services will be limited to online order collect collections only so if someone placed an order a customer placed an order not an uber driver or delivery and he knocks on the door will you let that customer into your premises to collect his order and then walk back out no no we don't how would he get his order we have a very more the uber or for the like customer collection order i phoned you and i said listen i want an order i want this this this and this and this and i'm coming to collect it myself because you're saying after 12 o'clock on any day the general public i'm general public so i've placed an order so how would you get my order to me if i said i'm going to pick it up so we will give the time to the customer for example order is going to take like five minutes or we're going to take like 10 minutes so we're going to give the time to the customers once it's ready you will know we just give them the order like we're not letting the door to give them the order yeah we'll give them no yeah right um two things one one relating to the order soon um are you imagining that are you thinking of extending the hot food i know this this has been an issue but um what about because the the license is from hot food isn't it um are you thinking of extending on that is this going to increase your sales no that's what we got even sales no this one like that's like because our shop is not a big shop it's just like a small shop take the shop so if we like increase the menu we need to increase the machines like you know the machines like the appliances so we can't we don't have a much more space that's what we got we are making like because this space we are making this money from these machines because we don't have much more space in the shop you want to have things that were hot but very less point like waffles and traps and like this they're just like microwave ovens like yeah you don't need to extract no like nothing no fun it's just like microwave no they run on electric one kind of they're like microwave as microwave ovens swells okay thanks and i did want to ask something else about me um a double thing really the complaints that were made to you about the previous um uh owners yeah what sort of complaints were made we don't know we really don't know after applying this license we know that uh they have the problem with the previous owner and we checked also uh on the licensing uh app or on the google that they also applies for that a couple of times i think the car shareers learn and he they also receive some complaints even uh even though uh he said that he visited officer so you're saying since you've been there you've not received a residence complaint directly to you no no not directly like these complaints we we get that directly after that after the yeah yes but since you've been there since you are you can see the president has not come in and said to you i'm unhappy with this or that so the after this companion was made you know the move guy i'm talking about the guy he came towards me and he told me that i want to talk with you so he came and talked with me they he called all the neighbors we sit in a car so we just have a chat this after this nothing no one's like came towards to us talk with us so we just came he said so basically after that incident nothing has happened no complaints there were no complaints made to cancel or to us and they don't complain at all now they they have not addressed any of these we have addressed their issues we won't make noise and now they've it's all clear they told us that dim your light and put your half down so we they said we are happy if you put the half year down and you dim the light we don't have any problems so we've done the same thing we are tested with them and yes even like that's why i was saying i go to prove like what's about that my phone is like in my car if you want to bring i can bring now if you want me to bring perhaps we can have a look at this now just in case there's something that you might want to ask following that as opposed to looking after and then have questions it may be fine yes yes it just may okay so what i'm going to do is i'm going to adjourn so you can go to the car and bring this message back to us that's fine it's but i think just in case there's a follow-up question yeah so i'm going to adjourn for 10 minutes that's right all right um don't go too far you just on the next floor just on the next one 10 minutes um so if you can get back for all right thank you this meeting um thank you very much for going to get that that correspondence between you and that particular gent with one of the residents um so would you like to actually offer one um we are happy for it to be tabled um are you happy for that to be tabled yeah wonderful okay so if you can just talk us through the correspondence between you and the residents leading up until the agreement of yesterday so after having a meeting on 19th number in a car so the move on 20th number in the meeting he texts me that no problem let me know what the council say okay everything everyone withdraw the complaint so you should be fine so plus i have more idea so after he's saying uh there was a complaint for the shayda begum who is his sister yeah so i send him the screenshot so uh here in the chat uh he's mentioning that yeah that was my sister she withdraw statement so i send him the screenshot he's saying no no that's not possible this was few weeks ago also please show me how the consul sent the name it's not possible her to make complaint yesterday because i told her to withdraw the complaint so so maybe it's this one withdrawing the complaint so after he says don't stress because we agree yesterday so this one is on 20th number because we were sitting in the car on 19th of number so so here he says like i said to you yesterday you agree we agree everyone happy now sorted you need to make sure brother you stick to your agreement so this was agreement which was made on 19th of number we were sitting in the car with the all the residents neighbors so he's saying you need to make sure brother you stick to your agreement so if you think about it these problems are small problems you can resolve it and i believe you will everyone is happy now so don't stress everything will be all right yeah so this agreement that they need to stick to is what exactly so they gave me like uh to negotiate negotiate on two things the first was that dim your shop light and the other was that you put your half shutter down so i'm still after 11 o'clock yeah you're supposed to put the shutter down yeah some more deliveries yeah but it's no walk-in trade yeah no working trade okay thank you just in terms of advice which i'll probably be giving to you later anyway but just so everybody knows we have to still go by the fact that no representations were withdrawn but of course you'll take into account what's been said today and apply appropriate appropriate weight in terms of concept deliberations okay thank you uh councillor with regards to deliveries yes just for the procedure how you how you manage a delivery so somebody puts in an order i'm sorry for the delivery or whichever they put in a deliver an order um and then how do you arrange when they're going to come and pick it up how long does it take you to get the food ready do you then turn or come in 15 minutes or do you call them back how's the procedure so that's for the general uh customers yeah like working customer for no i mean see online online delivery for the uber eats the when for example when we receive the order the operates give you time like for example it depends on the order for example if the order is big the uber gave you time that we will we are giving you 18 minutes you have to prepare this order in 18 minutes but for example if the order is ready before if you mark it ready the writer will came already ready he will go so there's no point that he will be standing in the shop because he came to the specific time so if even if the order is ready before we mark it ready the driver came and you take it and if it's not ready the order the uber gave you like specific time like 18 minutes 20 minutes the maximum is like 15 minutes so rather don't came like they never came this never happened that they came and they're standing in the shop before the order is not ready so they came they pick up the order they're gone and even though they we are as i told you i will be mentioned the note so whenever the writer pick our order for the desserts he will see that the shop says there are notes for the shop that park your bike park you whatever you're doing to live on the petrol pump so so they're parking up there on the petrol pump not in the front of shop so you've instructed them when they come to pick up their orders that they cannot come to the shop they must park at the petrol station yeah a lot of them are actually put that in the when you type in do you actually instruct them not to park outside the shop yeah yeah but some of the writers like from like some of the lot of people cause it's a one-way road yeah that's right they can't come all the way around so they a lot of them are parked on the petrol pump not but that's what i'm saying uh actually uh some of the drivers are permanent like they they are permanent yeah like we collect our shop orders so they are so like as a friend so we already told them that you have to be look after our residents and you have to follow these instructions so they say we are agreed and they just like uh more more uh drivers are on bicycle so this is not noise noisy or like so they park just on the petrol lock for two minutes they come and pick the order and on the main road they go all right can i speak cover back since we is there anything that we may have from this release this order um perhaps you could ask chair um obviously with your leave if a driver doesn't follow the instructions that's been said is there any consequences or taking into account what the residents concerns are so uh like uh if uh most of the drivers like they only come when the order is ready like they are not come like uh 10 minutes before and stay in the shop or outside they are talking on the phone or waiting for the order not like this but what if they did leave kid on the block because those and someone did and you've told them once um but he's done it again what what measures would you please make sure that this does not happen so we can do like this we will not give the order to them rider that's simple so next time we will not come so we will we have a game we can cancel it like or we can stop them and they never come here right uh yeah so yes so they're the step that you put into place yeah yeah yeah regard your requests okay thank you so one final clarification um i think just a moment ago you said a lot of your drivers are on bicycles yeah do you have a percentage of can you explain to the members out of i don't know 10 orders that you get how many of the drivers will be on bicycles and mopeds and cars so they have an understanding of which transport actually we cannot say that but some of the riders we know them then they pick up the order they have the bag of like big bags of bicycle they come and they say bicycle are you talking electric scooters or electric electric mix like electric summer but like a lot of like a lot of drivers use the bicycles because nowadays like because in delivery they don't make much because from 100 you can say 50 or like 60 they came on bicycle an original bicycle with no original bicycle the one you know the like the bicycle the pedal that's the one thank you to just just yeah just to give you some context yeah thank you can i just think please as i said earlier it's a it's a one way road so they you know these by uh the delivery uh drivers avoid going all the way around so it's easier convenient for them to park there and and when they do if we feed that in future they don't listen to us that they still come and park outside they usually we press the button yeah it's ready they just can't pick it up because they have to go to another make money they just come they don't sit there they don't stand there for more than half a minute or one minute pick it up and then then they just leave but if you if you know after all this committee meeting we can stress on them that none of the drivers you know come and park in front of the shops they will always park obviously we can't monitor them 100 but we'll do our best we'll follow the instructions that they should park in the garage and then they just walk it's only one minute walk anyway and it's convenient for them it'll take them five minutes to come down and just if it's there they can't they they just can't come through one one-way system anyway okay all right thank you did you want to continue yeah that discussion is about staffing levels so how many staff and employ while the business is open to the public uh there is only like we have two people sorry two for two persons yeah all the time not all the time we have ships half a time uh one one person each working in a shop and when the ships and the other will come like uh we open two o'clock and two two till seven o'clock one person is working after seven to till night the other one come and sometimes even we also help them one at a time um sometimes if they're busy they're probably one of these guys going you know taking extra stuff on fridays or saturdays but it's mostly it's one stuff one stuff at a time so that one person does everything cook the food and distribute it yeah it's like it's not busy desserts like we have to make it everything like ice cream and milkshakes yeah so the cakes we already like we go the made right we just take we put them in a bag there's nothing to make like for the milkshake we just made the milkshake even the ice cream we just put the scoop in the cup so all the things are ready to make like ready ready ready to move like you have not prepared um just want to go back to your operating schedule oh uh cctv uh you sense what is it six someone tell me what page is their new condition right so um um so just so i'm clear there's no indoor or outdoor seating this is tv no i'm talking about seating for now no no no no no so no one can come in and sit down at any time and outside even in the summer you don't put tables and chairs not at all okay um you said the door shall be kept closed after 11 p.m except for immediate access and egress of couriers for order collections so the agreement with the residents was that you will dim the light and pull the shutters down at what time 11 11. so that all corresponds that's fine um yeah yeah right so you've had the commercial been outside blended with the lock yes and have you got a receptacle kind of been outside for the people that do come during the day to put their rubbish if needs be like a dusting thing um because uh we can't put anything outside on the footpath but we've got one bin inside the shop inside the shop for customers if they do come in front of door and we if you enter in the shop yeah in the front of uh plate inside the shop all right oh my gosh um just making sure that i have so you and you have got a contract with newham to pick up the garbage and they've got idling or delivery vehicles outside the premises and drama national based voices and all that music um so just very quickly then um on your operating schedule which is on page 20 transgender you've got the license shall monitor the licensee shall monitor noise levels outside nearby dwellings how do you intend to do that could you repeat that please yes the license fee yourselves shall monitor noise levels outside of nearby dwellings how do you intend to do that um but we'll be lost the um environment person in the shop and someone's making noise outside and what have you is that how is that one person going to monitor noise pollution outside or asd behavior outside of the premises if he's only going to be yeah but as we said earlier he's not busy all the time and it's not friday saturday friday saturday friday saturday we have two people there friday saturday there'll be two people yeah we can we normally we have two people on the weekend at the weekend it's two people right so one one we can one sunday and friday saturday yes it's always friday saturday it's always two people one uh especially in the evening especially um you've got up uh you said you've put up a notice for delivery drivers to observe strict guidelines and we've discussed that at lenders now in the front of the shops no it's okay uh protecting children from harm you don't get it do you get a lot of children coming into your shop as i told you know a lot of eating customers because like only like we are making 80 point a day for dating customer that's life it's not so much okay all right i don't think i've got any further questions for you um right would you like to ask any questions questions questions okay any further advice to give one happy no only from the licensing point of view in terms of the proposed times just elaborate on what they actually are now proposing in terms of times during the week in the weekends would be an ideal can i i'm sorry for the committee and your chair that um as we said earlier the business hours people like to have dessert is after 11 after dinner daytime is hardly anything and that's the time to at least meet our expenses for the daily of the weekly um my sincere request to all of you is to allow us approve and authorize us to friday saturday and sunday if you could authorize us to open till four o'clock in the morning and we will follow your strict instructions guidelines and weekdays from monday to thursday if you could give us two three whichever is your offices um are happy with but it's friday saturday sunday that we request that if you could please authorize and approve grant us up to four o'clock opening uh monday to thursday um up to two o'clock or three o'clock and that will at least make our ends meet you know you know this situation at the moment mcdonald's is open 24 hours uh you know the other shops are open so we really have to work hard to at least let this business continue as it is and we are not making a lot of money like mcdonald's we will have a decision today so don't go too far and we will call you when we're ready to be thank you guys coming back we have more discussion and what will be to help you having heard all submissions written on all including those residents the licensing subcommittee have decided to grant the license the last possible hours will be monday to thursday twenty three hundred hours to zero two hundred hours friday and saturday twenty three hundred hours to zero four hundred hours and sunday to monday twenty three hundred hours to zero three hundred hours additional conditions related to cctv coverage primarily last order and the telephone number placed on the shop front will be detailed in the decision letter the forwarded decision letter of the reasons will be sent to the applicant within five words today thank you uh all parties who have taken part in this area may appeal against the decision to the magistrates court within 21 days good luck with your business thank you thank you thank you that's been fine thank you everyone good luck with your business good luck with your business
Summary
The Licensing Sub-Committee granted a new premises licence to Dessertz Ltd for their premises, Dessertz, at 344C Romford Road, Forest Gate, London E7 8BS. The licence permits the sale of late night refreshments between 11pm and 2am, Monday to Thursday, 11pm to 4am on Friday and Saturday, and 11pm to 3am on Sunday. The Sub-Committee also added a number of conditions to the licence relating to CCTV, courier deliveries, a final entry time for customers and the prominent display of a contact telephone number. The decision was made after the Sub-Committee considered written and oral representations from the applicant, residents, the Council's Licensing Enforcement Team and the Commercial Environmental Health Team.
Granting of a new premises licence to Dessertz
The Sub-Committee considered an application for a new premises licence for a dessert shop in Forest Gate. The shop had been operating without a licence since July 2024, when the current owner, Mr Abdul Rahman, took over the business. The shop sells a variety of desserts, including waffles, crepes and milkshakes, for consumption off the premises. Prior to the meeting the Council's Licensing Enforcement team had issued Mr Rahman with a warning letter after discovering the business was operating without a licence. Mr Rahman had also applied for and been granted a number of Temporary Events Notices to cover the period before the application was considered by the Sub-Committee.
The Sub-Committee heard representations from the Council's Licensing Officer, Mr Colin Hunt, who said that he had received a number of complaints from residents about noise and anti-social behaviour associated with the shop. He was concerned that granting a licence to the shop would lead to an increase in crime and disorder in the area. In their written representation, the Licensing Enforcement Team argued that the shop is located within the Green Street West Cumulative Impact Zone, which is an area where the Council seeks to limit the number of licensed premises because of concerns about the cumulative impact of licensed premises on the licensing objectives. In particular, the Licensing Enforcement Team said that selling late night and early into the morning at times other businesses are closed is also likely to attract anti-social behaviour and lead to an increase in littering, noise and noise issues for local residents
. The Council's Statement of Licensing Policy says that the presumption is that applications for new premises licences or club premises certificates will normally be refused
in these areas.
Mr Ian McConnell, a Public Protection Officer from the Commercial Environmental Health Team, also made a representation to the Sub-Committee. He said that his team had received two complaints about noise from the premises. One of the complainants, a Mr Patel, said that he had been unable to sleep because of the noise coming from the shop, and that this had been happening for more than three years. In his written representation, Mr McConnell said he was concerned that the operation of this premises has resulted in complaints from local residents even before an application has been made
and that he was concerned that, should a licence be granted, they will continue to cause a nuisance to local residents.
Mr McConnell's team had also made a referral to the Council's food safety team to investigate allegations that staff were sleeping on the premises. These allegations proved to be unfounded, but the food safety team did advise that cleaning standards in the shop needed to improve. Mr McConnell said that the applicant's operating schedule did not address the residents' concerns about litter and delivery drivers.
Mr Rahman presented his case to the Sub-Committee, and said that he had taken steps to address the residents' concerns, including installing a commercial waste bin outside the shop and asking delivery drivers to park their vehicles at the nearby petrol station. He also said that he had met with residents to discuss their concerns and had agreed to dim the lights in the shop and lower the shutters after 11pm. He provided a copy of a text message from a resident that appeared to confirm this. He argued that his business provides a valuable service to the local community and that granting him a licence would not have a negative impact on the licensing objectives.
Mr Rahman was accompanied at the meeting by Mr Adnan Ahmed, his brother, and Mr Sayeed Ahmed, who was there to provide moral support
.
The Sub-Committee decided to grant the application, but with reduced hours and a number of additional conditions, including a requirement to install and maintain CCTV, a requirement that couriers should wait outside the premises until their order is ready and that the final order of the day be taken no later than 15 minutes before closing.
Noise and anti-social behaviour
The Sub-Committee heard a great deal of evidence about noise and anti-social behaviour in the area around the shop. The majority of this came from residents, who were concerned about the impact of the shop's late opening hours on their quality of life. Residents had complained about noise from delivery drivers, customers hanging around outside the shop, cars blocking the road and littering. They also made allegations about drug use, including cannabis and laughing gas
,1 taking place outside the shop.
Mr Hunt, the Licensing Officer, said that the residents' observations would be slightly heightened
, but that they are always there
and they're going to see a lot more
than he had during his visit to the shop. However, he added that residents in Newham are not great for reporting every issue
.
Mr Rahman argued that much of the anti-social behaviour complained about by residents was nothing to do with his business. He said that there is a vape shop next door to his premises which is always busy
and attracts a lot of boys
and groups
who come there for their own enjoyment and refreshment
. He said that residents may be confusing this with his shop because his lights are on.
The Sub-Committee concluded that there was a risk that granting the application would lead to an increase in noise and anti-social behaviour in the area, but that this could be mitigated by imposing conditions on the licence.
Waste
Residents complained that customers of the shop were littering and that the dessert shop as well as the many shops nearby dump their rubbish on the road
.
Mr Rahman argued that he had addressed the problem of waste by installing a commercial waste bin. He said that even sometimes we see that the people, the residential areas, they put their bin in front of our shop
. He claimed not to know why they do this, but that he has asked them to stop.
The Sub-Committee did not appear to be overly concerned about the issue of waste, and made no specific recommendations on it.
Parking
Residents complained about cars blocking the road and taking residential parking spaces. They said that some customers drive down the road the wrong way to access the shop, and park inconsiderately.
Mr Rahman admitted that delivery drivers can't park on the main road
and that they sometimes park on Westbury Road, but he said that he has told our drivers to pick up the Uber drivers and Just Eat to park the... scooters away from there
and that now a lot of motorbikes park on the petrol pump because on the Uber we just mentioned a note... that park your bike whatever you are doing on the petrol pump.
He said that he tells delivery drivers not to park outside his shop, but that some of the drivers are permanent... like we collect our shop orders so they are like a friend
and that he has told them to look after residents
.
The Sub-Committee made no specific recommendations on the issue of parking.
Delivery drivers
There was much discussion about delivery drivers during the meeting, and a great deal of confusion about the numbers and types of delivery driver that serve the business. Mr Rahman initially claimed that the shop makes 80 sales a day
to walk-in customers, but later admitted that 90% of his business comes from online orders via Uber Eats and Just Eat. He produced evidence to show that he had taken £1,400 in sales via Uber Eats over the course of a month, and £69 via Just Eat over the course of a week.
When questioned by the Sub-Committee about the numbers of delivery drivers serving his business, Mr Rahman said that after 20 minutes one driver's coming, picking up the order. It's not randomly... We have no such busy time
. He later contradicted this, claiming that on Fridays and Saturdays the shop can be very busy and that a lot of drivers use bicycles because nowadays in delivery they don't make much
. He claimed that from 100 you can say 50 or 60 came on bicycle
, but that some drivers use electric bikes and scooters.
The Sub-Committee seemed unconvinced by Mr Rahman's evidence, and concluded that there was a risk that delivery drivers would cause noise and nuisance to residents, particularly late at night. The Committee imposed a condition on the licence requiring drivers to wait outside the shop until their order is ready to collect, and asked the applicant to stress
to his drivers that they should park in the petrol station forecourt and not on Westbury Road.
Internal layout of the shop
Mr Rahman had provided a floor plan of the shop as part of his application, but the Sub-Committee asked a number of questions about the layout of the shop. They were particularly interested in the location of the toilet. The floor plan showed a toilet at the rear of the shop, but the licensing officer and the environmental health officer had both visited the shop and had not seen a toilet. Mr Rahman explained that the toilet has two doors, one leading from the shop and one leading from the rear yard which is shared with the adjacent petrol station. He said that the door from the shop is locked and that the toilet is accessed via the rear door. The Sub-Committee accepted this explanation. They were also concerned about a white speck
visible in a photograph of the shop, but this turned out to be the handle of the toilet door.
-
Nitrous oxide, also known as laughing gas, is a colourless gas that is used as an anaesthetic, particularly by dentists. It has become increasingly popular as a recreational drug in recent years. ↩
Attendees
- Jane Barbara Lofthouse
- Tonii Wilson
- Winston Vaughan
- Christine Elsasser
- Colin Hunt
- Ken Foot
- Mandeep Mehat
- Mehrunnisa Hussain
- Steve Jackson
- Umair Malik
Documents
- Licensing procedure
- Committee Report LNR Desertzz
- Appendix A - Redacted
- Appendix B_Redacted
- Appendix C
- DeclarationofInterestGuidance other
- Public reports pack 07th-Jan-2025 10.00 Licensing 2003 Act Sub-Committee reports pack
- Agenda frontsheet 07th-Jan-2025 10.00 Licensing 2003 Act Sub-Committee agenda
- Appendix D1
- Appendix D2