Transcript
Good evening everybody, welcome to this meeting of the Licensing Subcommittee to the London Borough of Tower Hamlets, the first to be held in 2025 on Tuesday the 7th of January, for the purposes of the record, because we are going out live and anybody, absolutely anywhere in the world can listen to us.
My name is Peter Gould, I'm a councillor and I chair the Licensing Subcommittee, the meeting is being held in person and committee members and key participants are in the room.
Obviously only those who are present, as the law currently stands, will be entitled to vote on the application when we come to that part of the meeting, though others can watch.
May I remind members and those who are contributing to speak, that you can only speak when you put the little red bit on, and when you finish speaking, switch it off, because surprise, surprise, the next person can't be heard, so it does waste time.
If we keep saying, please switch it off, please switch it off, and anybody that we call to contribute, may I ask them to refer to the pages in our bundle, so that members go directly and you don't actually have people flicking through the pages, looking for everything.
I'm now going to invite members on this side of, or on the dais, to introduce themselves, starting with my colleague over there.
Levine Millijansson, Licensing.
Simi Yasmin, Democratic Services.
Jonathan Melnick, Legal Advice in the Subcommittee.
Councillor Amistad Ahmed.
Councillor Farouk Ahmed.
Thank you very much.
The next item is formally apologies for absence.
The quorum of this committee is three, and there are three of us here, so there are no apologies, but for formality, I record there are no apologies for absence.
I now move to item number one, which is declarations of interest.
Do any member have a declaration of disclosable pecuniary interest?
I have absolutely none.
No.
Thank you, Chair.
I have nothing to declare.
We have no declarations.
We now move to the rules of procedure.
May I invite everybody to look at pages 9 to 18 on our big bundle, which tells us how we conduct ourselves.
For those appearing for the first time, although this subcommittee is quasi-judicial, I try to ensure that it operates in a friendlier manner as possible.
But at the same time, if anybody wishes to get my attention to speak, will they please signal, and I will scribble it down on a note and call when appropriate, please do not try and interrupt other people.
We're neither in the House of Commons or at the Council Chamber at a full Council meeting, so we don't expect it to be looking like a political dogfight.
We like this to be as absolutely collegiate as possible.
I now move to item 3 on our agenda, which is minutes.
Now, can members please note and formally agree the minutes of the meeting held on the 12th and 19th of November, which are pages 19 to 36, and for the purposes of the record, all the members who were present at those meetings were sent the decision notice for their comments.
Can we have agreement?
Mr. Yasmin, they are agreed.
Thank you very much.
We now move to our reports for consideration.
I've been asked if we can alter the agenda very slightly, so we bring item 4.2 forward as the first item, which then moves item 4.1 as the second item.
And item 4.2 is an application for a new premises licence for Harvest, 103 Brick Lane, London, E1-6SE.
Will Ms. Yasmin introduce those in attendance representing everybody?
Thank you, Chair.
For this application, we have the applicant being represented by Mr. Duncan Craig, as well as the applicants who are present at the meeting.
We also have those that make representation.
We have Levine Miller-Johnson and Yale Sherlock, who's on virtually.
After the application has been presented, the applicant will be invited to speak and will be given a total of five minutes to make their representation.
The objections will also get five minutes each to make their representation.
I will let you know once one minute is remaining.
Please note that the subcommittee have read the agenda pack in advance.
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you very much, and I assume by the process of elimination that Mr. Craig is the gentleman sitting looking at the laptop.
Thank you.
Thank you for coming out.
Can I now invite Mr. Ali, who is our licensing officer, to introduce the report?
Thank you, Chair.
The application in front of you is for a new premises licence application for Harvest, 103 Brick Lane, London, E1-6SE.
The reason it's in front of you is because there's representations from Enromptu Protection, Licencement Authority, and a resident.
Now, going through the report, if you look at Appendix 1, pages 142 to 162, you'll see a copy of the application, which includes the plan.
3.2 of the report shows you the licensable activities, which is a sale by retail of alcohol, on and off sales Monday to Sunday, 8 a.m. to 11 p.m., and opening hour 7 a.m. to 11 p.m.
Appendix 2, pages 164 to 165, shows you the map of the venue.
Appendix 3, pages 167 to 168, shows you the photographs of the vicinity in relation to premises.
Appendix 4, shows you the details of the nearest licence venues, that's pages 170 to 173.
Appendix 5, pages 175 to 179, shows you the representation of Enromptu Protection.
Appendix 6, page 181 to 184, shows you the representation of the licensing authority.
Appendix 7, page 186 to 187, shows you the representation of James Frankel.
The representations have been made under the licensing objectives of the prevention of crime and disorder, public nuisance, and protection of children from harm.
There's also been some correspondence between the agent, acting on behalf of the applicant, and Enromptu Protection.
These are included in Appendix 8, pages 189 to 196.
Also, members' information, 7.0 of the report, shows you the conditions that have been offered by the applicant, between 7.1 to 7.29.
And also, you've got supplemental information in front of you that's been circulated as well.
That's the summary of the report.
Members have any further questions?
Thank you.
We do have the supplementaries as well, don't we?
Do any colleagues have any questions for Mr. Ali?
I don't.
Colleagues?
It seems to me there are no questions for Mr. Ali.
I now invite the applicant to present their application.
Mr. Craig, you have been told it's five minutes, so for the next five minutes, the floor is yours.
I'm very grateful, Chair.
I had the benefit of being able to visit the premises before we all came here.
We walked over, in fact.
It's a good-sized venue.
It's around 1,500 square foot.
And I think you'll see from the correspondence that's been forward, my clients actually have a number of other shops, N1, N5, N8, N16, and E8, all operate.
I ask my clients to give sort of five bullet points to encapsulate what the business is about.
It's about using organic products, local produce, fresh produce that's delivered every day, and it's very much customer-focused and also very much community-focused in terms of returning certain items of food to the wider community and to homeless people at the end of the day.
And so it sort of made me consider, really, that Section 182 guidance, paragraph 14.44, that deals with cumulative impact policies, licensing authorities are entitled to make distinctions between different types of licensed premises.
And the example it gives is, for example, a theatre, a cafe is different from a nightclub.
And what we're dealing with here is, I know a number of the objections describe this premises as an off-license, and I don't think that's fair or accurate, given the nature of the operation that my client operates.
And I guess if you were to categorise this premises within that description, it is distinguishable from other, quote-unquote, off-licenses in the vicinity, partly because of the style of operation.
But in addition to that, and look, this is a comprehensive operating schedule.
It's at page 152 through to 154.
I'm not, given the time limits, I'm not going to take you through all the conditions, but it's an extremely comprehensive operating schedule with a number of enforceable conditions that are being offered.
That isn't particularly exceptional, I would say.
I think it's right to say that things like CCTV and refusals books are fairly standard.
And even if I was going to suggest that the ABV condition on there is somehow exceptional, that wouldn't be right or fair.
But I would submit there are two conditions that are being offered, and arguably three, in fact, that distinguish this premise from other convenience stores.
The first of those is condition 16, which is at page 153, which restricts the amount of display space in the premises to 15% for alcoholic products.
Now, that's an extremely low percentage.
Sometimes people offer 25%, 50%, but 15%, it basically accounts for one fridge and a few shelves on the right-hand side of the shop.
And so, clearly, that will significantly limit the impact of alcohol, the sales of alcohol within the shop, and thereby the amount of impact that these premises will have.
What my client is seeking to do is simply have alcohol on sale for people who are visiting the shop to buy other grocery products.
So, that's the first condition that I'm going to submit distinguishes this application.
The second has been, obviously, I've emailed both responsible authorities, and I'm grateful that you've taken the time to read that, also offered a minimum price condition.
Now, this condition is, I've encountered it a couple of years ago up in Newcastle, and it's relatively commonplace up there, but I'm not saying that's the case elsewhere.
But, what my client is offering is minimum prices on alcoholic products, which are, I would describe them as significantly high.
£2.79 on beer and cider, £9.99 on a bottle of wine, £39.99 on a bottle of spirits.
Now, any cumulative impact policies, in terms of off-licences, is principally going to be aimed at street drinkers, race to the bottom, and clearly those prices will not only discourage street drinkers,
but no street drinker is, frankly, going to be interested in going into this shop with those prices.
The other feature of that condition that, I guess, locks it in and future-proofs it is that the premises is required to increase those prices every two years in line with the retail price index.
It's enshrined, it's mandated within that condition.
So, those conditions will be fixed, those prices will be fixed for two years, and we'll have to increase following that every two years in line with RPI.
So, that protects that position going forward.
Third condition that's been offered is a noise management plan and a dispersal policy.
That's unusual for an off-licence, but my client has taken into account the representations that were made by your environmental protection team,
and have, accordingly, framed a noise management plan and a dispersal policy.
My client is very much community-focused, as I said at the outset, and certainly they do not want to be in a position where they're upsetting any local people.
I think often convenience stores can be more transient operations where people are perhaps passing by.
This is very much community-focused.
My client has no desire to upset any local residents, and you'll see from the objection, the single objection that was made by a member of the public,
they did offer to meet with that member of the public.
It's also worth noting that that objection did not oppose the licence full stop.
It was simply, in terms of the scope of the licence, with particular reference to the hours.
And you'll note, through Mr Connersby, the agent, that the hours have been pulled back to 10 o'clock now, well within your framework hours.
And so, in summary, I would just say that this application is distinctive for all those reasons.
Ultimately, people can put anything in an application in terms of what they're going to do.
The only thing that really has any force, bite, and is enforceable is that of conditions.
And my client, I would submit, has offered three conditions here which will distinguish this application from others.
And I would just make the point that if a condition such as this, with minimum pricing, takes effect and is proved to be effective,
then that could have wider benefits for the area more generally when places are subject to review, for example.
Policies are there because, as much as anything else, it's a race to the bottom.
So, what my client is seeking to do is raise the overall standard in the area, and they've got a track record that says that that's something they're more than capable of doing.
I don't know how I've done, am I? There are thereabouts?
There we go.
Thank you for listening.
Thank you very much, Mr Craig. That was excellent timing.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you much.
extensive amount of conditions and they've obviously offered to reduce the hours of opening
to across the week to 10 o'clock which i think would probably you know help in reducing any sort
of concerns that myself always thank you chair thank you very much miss miller and i now move
to mr sherlock the environmental health officer thank you chair um so uh the objection that we put
in place is uh also as uh officer previously mentioned is that this application is within
the ciz and so also there is further consideration that the originally um proposed operation hour is
uh half an hour past the uh core operation hours uh so but now the uh applicant has provided further
information including the minimum price condition as well as the um as well as the noise management plan
and uh this uh dispersal policy um so uh i would believe these uh proposed uh conditions will um
remove the uh concerns for the um impact uh caused by the noise and uh nuisance uh from this uh proposed
license uh premises thank you chair mr malnick
yeah um mr sherlock i'm not quite clear what you're saying are you withdrawing your representation
uh yes so after the further information provided by the uh applicant
thank you thank you yes it's got to be done if it's not done 24 hours before the hearing it has to
be done at the hearing but obviously it does need to be clear to everyone involved thank mr sherlock
okay thank you hold on i've called you thank you much mr craig but i'm going to invite my members
first to put questions colleagues do you have questions before i have a question
thank you thank you thank you thank you chair thank you to all parties for for the presentation and uh
just quickly to the applicant uh one of the objector is objecting on the basis of that you did not
support the
environmental protection it's it's on the bundle page 10176
she's just withdrawing it oh that's my drawing okay so probably i missed sorry about it yeah i mean
then that is covered
i'm not right this moment probably later on
i don't have any questions um regardless of anything um the the one major issue of the whole
brick lane spittle field area and you are at the very top end of brick lane where it borders on the
shoreditch triangle is an area where at weekends there are higher levels of anti-social behavior
than unbelievably and i haven't we have police reports that come to us on a regular basis
unbelievably more than leicester square piccadilly circus and covent garden combined
and there are real problems there and although i note what you have and i've written down what you
have you say on page 153 subsection 16 and indeed 152 onwards and 54 the fairly detailed operating
schedule i remain to be convinced of why we should grant this particular license which goes against our
ciz which we've worked long and hard for to try and reduce the problems of alcohol in this particular area
which is blighted
and still
doing this at 12 years now i still don't get used to these devices i'm afraid sorry i forgot to turn it on
good to know i'm not sure i would say
it goes against your policy i mean your policy is designed there i would imagine to reduce crime
and disorder and public nuisance to ensure that the lot the venues in in the area promote the licensing
objectives more purposefully and um more effectively and so i'm going to reiterate the point that i made but
this type of premises could raise the bar so i'd make that point firstly the second point i would
make is that my client has been in fairly extensive discussions with the police police haven't made a
rep in relation to this application but there has been correspondence the police have pointed out the
issues in the area particularly in relation to shoplifting which is significant and and of course
in relation to disorder issues more widely and the police were supportive of the application broadly
speaking because of the type of operation that my clients
run and and and manage um they are looking to put security staff on for the first few weeks
they want to be in a position where they can review that and so we haven't offered that as a
condition because that won't necessarily be something that they would be
want hands tied by going forward but certainly that's something that they
are looking to do and so and of course the other thing is that they are they are experienced operators
in in other in other boroughs i think it would be right to say that the other shops they've got
um perhaps won't necessarily be as challenging in that respect but they do have their issues and i
think it's right that my clients um perhaps respond to this as well about the issues with
with crime and disorder in the area i don't know if you've got anything you would want to say
guys about that about how your operation would fit into that hi my name is sukriaka i'm one of the
directors of harvest um we we've had similar issues in in different areas where this was um the crime
rate was high and stuff and um we've we've gone about speaking to um can i report this pc kieran wells from
um tower hamlets police um constable and uh we asked about what sort of things we can do to manage
crime rates and crime happening within the area and within our our business and we obviously don't want
any sort of misbehaving or crime in areas that we go into and the way we we get rid of this sort of
policies by putting security in our front doors and um more members of staff for for security purposes
and um asking to id absolutely most people that we we um come into our stores and stuff and look younger
than what we anticipate um and that's all i wanted to say and thank you for listening to me i i suppose
the only other point i would make on my client's behalf is obviously the hours being cut back as
they have a lot of the a lot of those issues that you referred to chair will occur beyond
um the times that licensable activities will be authorized under this license as well it's not
an overwhelming point but i think it's one that's worth my while making i normally very careful about
what i read but just in case i've missed anything or in paper but papers may have in front of me
i'm looking here um bread one three four three point three um it's the the sale retail by alcohol is um
zero eight hundred to twenty three hundred is that correct
very much check is that every that and that's seven days per week yes thank you
i think to be fair to you i think that probably formed the basis of environmental protections
withdrawal so it's only right that that's um formalized it it moves a little it moves a little
way but i keep coming to the point and it is really to demonstrate this issue of the ciz and as i
say we have worked incredibly hard to institute the ciz we've had years and years of consultation
bringing it in renewing it and um we are pretty um i think it's fair to say colleagues we do come
down very heavily and refuse lots of applications on it and we don't we don't losing we don't look we
tend not to lose on it because we're we've got a pretty robust we got a pretty robust
um policy on the matter
i i really really really i think the issue that will tax all of us is this issue is why we should
go against our existing policy for this particular application in these circumstances and i i recognize
that that that the prices are pitched high um but we we have a real problem in the area particularly
with off sales and i i i i understand that and of course your policy you have to have due regard to
your policy although no policy of course chair is is absolute and and and and i know you're aware of
that i don't need to um uh point that out but it's but it's right that i that i that i underline it
the the the the the question is is what is that what is that policy seeking to achieve and ultimately
if it's going to if people are going to come into the area and they're going to raise the standard
they're going to run their business properly they're going to have very restricted sales of alcohol
in terms of the amount of space and and the prices that they are committing to sell alcohol at
which enables people who live locally to shop in a nice environment with good quality products that
have been sourced locally and that they can buy a bottle of wine as part of that not not to go in
there for that purpose that won't be the principal purpose of alcohol it's simply there is a as an
ancillary service for the wider um products of groceries that that are available then i would submit to
you that that that is the precisely the type of outlet that you can make an exception to because that
then could drive standards up more widely and also you could have a a a a premises that's that's that
that is set as an example where minimum pricing can can operate effectively in that in that zone
which could have a knock-on effect to all the premises i'm not saying that's guaranteed but
if for example there's a premises where it's subject to review if that if that condition has
been proved to operate that may be an alternative to revoking a license in the future so look we're
not here to speculate about what's going to happen in the future but that type of policy i suppose what
i'm trying to say is if if you are going to make an exception this is the type of premises where you
should
slightly cheeky question from me because i i know part of the particular where in n5 is your business
we're right across the hybrid nislington station the old barclays bank
oh yeah my hybrid nislington station yeah correct
yeah so i weren't sitting here tonight i'd be wandering through it in about half an hour's time
i'm sorry to keep coming back on this mr craig and i hope you don't think i'm being terribly terribly
persistent but the the basis of your presentation this evening is to say that
that that the alcohol officer is priced at such a level it is unlikely to attract what we would call
a casual drinker or anybody who just goes in and wants a quick drink
yeah i mean in general terms the answer to that question is yes that doesn't mean
um if elon musk is passing by and he's perhaps not as price sensitive as other people
let's let's hope that's not the case but uh yeah of course if if if people are
i think people are price conscious much more if they are simply going in to buy an alcoholic product
i think um the the expression that that my old boss used to use at eldridge pope was it's a distressed
purchase it was it was a it was cigarettes out of a vending machine that that you're you're making that
purchase it would be cheaper at the shop down the road it's more expensive out of the vending machine
but because it's because you're there because you don't want to go to the shop or the shop may be closed
you will pay that extra you you will accept that because it is part of your visit but that isn't the
reason for your visit so i guess i would frame it in those terms
uh and clearly my client is supporting that by virtue of the 15 percent limit that is placed on um
uh on on on on the on the shelving and so yes the the the the main purpose that people will go into
that shop is demonstrated by that 15 percent and so yes that that that that purchase will be more
expensive and and i guess there'll be an element i've got to try and get to the right way around
now is is it price in elasticity or price elasticity but the people who will shop in there will be less
sensitive by virtue of the fact that the reason they're in there isn't to purchase alcohol it is
to purchase other products and alcohol is ancillary to that does that make sense yeah i'm sure you don't
in short you're not pricing in such as ways um to use aspects of alcohol as a loss leader to attract
people into the shop to buy to buy other products i understand that i think yeah i think i can get
that i think it's also right to say that when i i suggested this condition to my clients first of
all there was no pushback but i was a little surprised at the levels they came back at somebody
i've not had to i've not had to chip at them and say look can you can you you know this needs to be
higher they came back with these prices and that that was i even i even clarified with them are you
sure on these spirits and the answer was yes
colleagues anymore yeah
correct me if i if that's been already asked or answered um to the applicant um
but the alcohol is there any particular alcohol that is sold in that
premises or is it all type of alcohol will be sold
um hi it's locally sourced and organic products we don't do any normal products that any of off
license or supermarket does hence why that that's the prices are a bit higher because they're locally
sourced organic and good ingredients instead of bad ingredients
what what my client can't do is condition that you can't say we will only sell
this particular product that just simply isn't workable as a condition so that's why that's not
reflected in there but obviously you've heard that the type of products that they did that they do sell
and that is that again is i would submit is exceptional and distinguishes this application
from other premises that currently are in the in the local area
any further questions thank you very much we i have no questions from my my council colleagues i now
invite everybody to sum up if you wish to sum up on anything i'm happy to give everybody
uh one minute so um laverne if you'd like if you'd like to spend a minute speaking to us thank you
chair um we welcome new businesses to the area we're not trying to hinder anybody in any way but
we just need to protect the area protect the residents from any further um impact from new
premises selling off sales within the area we are already very saturated um and we're just trying to
not obviously bring any businesses that are gonna you know have a further impact on that
and have any issues for us and for the residents thank you chair thank you thank you very much um mr
craig i'll be very brief um i guess all i'm going to say is i think i can say with confidence that
notwithstanding the problems in the area and notwithstanding the subsistence of the policy given
um the conditions that have been offered given the way the conditions have been framed given
the style of operation given the experience my clients have got i think this will be a credit to
the area and um i would please invite you therefore to grant the application thank you
thank you very much mr craig um formally thank you for your contribution so everybody thank you for
officers most thankful thank you for the applicants and thank you mr craig for your
forbearance with our continuous questioning the suck up the subcommittee will deliberate in a private
session after the formal committee meeting and you will receive the result of the our deliberation
from ms yesmin which will be sent you within five working days it will give you the reasons whatever
decisions we make our reasons and in the event of refusal whether the decision was unanimous or by majority
um for the record when we adjourn ms yesmin and mr melnick come with us mr melnick for the point of
law ms yesmin to make any appropriate notes but the decision is ours and ours alone thank you very much for
your attendance
um for the purpose of the video we are adjourning for five minutes or members um members with mr melnick will
adjourn for five minutes while ms yesmin is sorting something out thank you
mr melnick will be staying out here to assist ms yesmin and anybody else but we will go in the back room
everybody we are back online and for the purposes of
the applicants who have just arrived now i'll go through my normal housekeeping
um we are now going to consider i put some 4.1 on our agenda which is an application for a new
premises license for z and h one rise limited 46 brick lane london e1 6 rf
um
cord ms yesmin announce who is in attendance please
yes chair thank you for this application we have um mr mohen chen mr zin zhan hu and mr weez wang
present and representing the applicant today um in terms of the objectors we have mr machine ali
licensing officer and we did have mr yale sherlock online however i believe he's dropped off i think
machine is trying to make contact with him now i think because we swapped the application he may have
missed so let me quickly call him okay um we better adjourn because we need him can you call him
former adjourn for two minutes
mr ali has no need to hear what i'm about to say because he's heard it a thousand times um may i welcome
the applicants here this evening you will have heard that i will invite you to speak um i mean i would
invite you to address the meeting for up to five minutes on why we should grant this application
you understand it goes against the cumulative impact zone which is council policy but your job
here will be to demonstrate that's why we should grant it over that um you will note that we are
represented here quickly um if i quickly identify myself as councillor peter goals i'm chairing the
meeting i'll have two other councillors with me councillor mr gamut and we're the people who will make
the decisions we are supported legally by mr the gentleman johnson melnick from legal services
and simi has been democratic services thank you very much
and when we reach the end we will adjourn to reach our decision the decision will be made by
the three councillors and the three councils alone but we will have both mr melnick and
yes me with us for the purpose of clerking our deliberations and giving us legal advice thank you
the reason we're talking is to be absolutely fair to you so that nothing is done
and that we are absolutely as you're here formally and you're objecting you're now an objector
um i did not invite levine to prevent the report but i'm now going to invite for the purposes
of of everybody present and including those listening um levine miller johnson who is our
licensing officer to prevent the report before us thank you chair this is an application for a new
premises license for z and h one rice limited at 46 brick lane london e1 6rf this premises falls within
the brick lane community of impact area the applicant has described the premises as a restaurant
a copy of the application is shown in appendix 1 pages 48 to 64 the licenseable activities and
hours applied for are for late night refreshments monday to sunday 11 pm until 4am the following morning
a reduction of hours has been agreed with the police and has been amended as follows sunday to thursday
from 7am until midnight and friday and saturday from 7am until 1am the following morning opening hours of
the premises have also been agreed with the police and reduced this is sunday to thursday from 7am until
1am the following morning the site plan of the venue is included at appendix 2 page 66 maps showing the
facility are included at as appendix 3 page 68 photographs of the premises are included in appendix 4
pages 70 to 71 and detailed details of other licensed venues in the vicinity are included at appendix 5
pages 73 to 78 representations have been received from responsible authorities and residents and these
these can be found at appendix 6 to 9 pages pages 93 sorry i've missed page off that from page 93
all conditions um that have been agreed with the police can have been listed at page 41 of the pack
and you can also find them at appendix 10 pages 95 to 105 and guidance for members can be found at
appendices 1 to 18 which is pages 160 members have no questions to you but thank you very much
i'm now going to invite the objectors to prevent their objections
i now have the applicants here to of course you don't have the names i now invite the applicants to
present their application to the to the members
my name is vizi one and i'm representing for znh one rice limited company and we are a chinese restaurant
we normally open on the weekdays from 11 o'clock to 10 pm and same day on the weekend but we usually close
on tuesday so we want to apply late night refreshments lessons from seven o'clock to 12 o'clock in on the weekdays
and on the weekends we want to apply seven o'clock to one o'clock in the evening and we being opened from
the 14th of september 2014 uh 2004 and during this time uh we already work with
the rubbish recycle company and we applied for the government's rubbish bag the red one to
clean the rubbish and keep the neighborhood clean and also we have a license for the alcohol
and we are thinking about maybe we can selling alcohols in the evening as well and for that we have a
this is our manager for the restaurant and he is one of the personal license and uh he getting like full
trade for the training company like uh as a management and also we if we open late night we're going to
work in with contact with the local police and to make sure if there is any violence or fighting
we can contact them and they can come here straight away and also for the noise we have a little sign to
keep quiet on the entrance of the restaurant to show the customers if they want to leave the restaurant
in the midnight have to keep quiet
and thank you very much for your contribution um i now move to the objectors and invite mr ali to begin
thank you chair um just in case i missed something there can i just um go back to
um our previous hearing our original issue whereby
um we were requesting um the people present um who they were and who they were representing so
in specific specific to my application my initial concern i had was um that the original director was
mr chen the new director was mr you so the initial um query from me was who's actually running the
business at present because at the time mr chen had been sending in emails while the transfer had taken
taken effect um so can i address that point first before i proceed with my objection i'll jump to
just do my objection first thank you so who is who
um so yes before the director for the company it was xiaobin chen but we changed it to dong rongyu from
the august of 26
so that's satisfactory mr ali yes thank you so clarifies my point mr you is now in charge of the business i
guess so um and obviously this gentleman the gentleman here are representing him so i'll proceed with my
um representation and then perhaps some questions after um are finished um so in terms of the
representation as you're aware the application is within the crz um and the representation is under the
provision of crime and disorder and the provision of public nuisance um although i've noted um the hours
have been reduced in line with the police uh recommendation um still these hours are beyond
the framework hours as set in the policy when that case came in there was no reference in the application
that the princess lies within crz so therefore no additional measures on how they intend to uphold the
license and objectives and how they will not add negatively to the existing saturated area
um so the policy puts an onus on the applicant and they should be able to show um exertional circumstances
why this application should be granted um so the license and authority feels that this has not been
demonstrated on balance of probability um the addition of of an additional license premises within
um um the ciaz will negatively um add to the impact um to the area um as often the clients will be under the influence of alcohol
from attending nearby premises um and therefore adding to um the existing problems in the area
um again in that side um causing disturbances so that was a concern um in terms of the objection now i've suggested some
conditions uh four conditions i believe two of them have been agreed with the police already um the noise
three and four conditions um are still outstanding so members are wanted to grant i would suggest that
these additional conditions are granted so now going back to my initial concern of who is running the
business so mr yu is obviously um apparently the new person in charge so obviously the concern is that
he's obviously not here uh for us or the members to ask him any questions directly um in terms of how he's gonna
um uphold the license and objectives so that's going back to my original question as to who's running
the business and maybe that because may wish to clarify in terms of if mr wu mr you would be running
the day-to-day business or is it going to be them themselves who are going to be upholding the license and
objectives um so that is my representation unless members have any further questions on that thank you
thank you thank you very much mr alley has mr sherlock appeared have we tracked him down
quick question which which i've looked i've been looking over which page is it
yeah he's represent yeah his representation starts at 86 isn't it
um mr sherlock has not been able to join us he was representing actually mr o'leary this evening
who is the principal environmental protection officer but for the for the record and for anybody consult
anybody looking online who is looking at the paperwork the representation from environmental
health by way of objection is contained on pages 86 to 87 of the main bundle in the name of onahua o'leary
so i'd like to put that on records of it because when we adjourn we will be referring to this
documentation at our meeting at our at our deliberation thank you
mr melmoth can we just check i think one of the points that was mentioned as one of you gentlemen i'm
afraid i didn't catch all of the um names i can't quite read my own writing that one of you is a personal
license holder did you say that you were selling alcohol that you have a lot or rather you have a
license to sell alcohol sorry we have the personal license right now but we're still waiting for the
license for the restaurant okay and you and you understand that at the moment that your that the
application does not allow for the sale of alcohol yes uh yes
that is absolutely clear isn't it you are you are where you cannot sell alcohol uh we know well from
now we're not going to sell alcohol but we plan to sell alcohol when we got the license i'm sorry turn
it off please um whatever you plan or plan ought to do um we have an application for licensing before us
this evening you cannot sell alcohol if you plan to have to have to sell alcohol you would have to come
back with a completely new application so i put it now to you are you aware that you are not permitted
to sell alcohol yes for this late man refreshment license uh license yeah we understand that we're not
allowed to sorry unquote obviously they can belong to very
i'll give the very simple question which i always give to people who come applications within the
spittle fields um community of impact zone and which i posed as my very first question of the previous
application which is all in the spittle fields area as you know we have a community of impact zone
the reason for that is to protect residents for their way of life and everything and and their peace etc
etc etc but were we pretty mindful of granting this license it would break the ciz can you explain can
you give me a reason why we should break the ciz break our own rules for your application
um i understand like um for the documents we haven't like uh submit like fully so may i ask like
if there are any documents we're still missing like for the late night refreshment lessons
so the issue isn't the question from the member isn't that you're missing documents it's effectively
we have a policy in brick lane area that says that no new licenses will be granted for late night
refreshment or the sale of alcohol effectively unless the applicant shows that they should be an exception to
that policy and what the chair is saying is why should you be granted as a license as an exception to
this policy how will you uphold the licensing objectives and ensure that you don't impact
adversely on an already stressed area do you understand the question oh i'm i'm sorry for that
but if like we're not allowed to sell the alcohol we're not going to do that talking about the sale of
alcohol we asked the application is for the provision of late night refreshment the only reason alcohol
has come into it is because it was mentioned during your representation and has caused a little bit of
confusion it's accepted that you have personal licenses which you would need if you want if you
were to eventually sell alcohol you don't sell alcohol at the moment the late night refreshment
aspect of this of this application is still a going against the council's policy and the question is
how will you why should you be treated as an exception to that policy and ensure that you will not
adversely impact on an area that is already stressed with lots of alcohol and late night refreshment licenses
so basically like um in brickland right now it's only have four chinese restaurants and also our
customers
yeah understand that but there is like lots of customer like ask us to open late
you know like a late night and also brickland is a kind of like tourist place so we were thinking if
we open late we can like a cash like more tourists and more peoples to come in
i don't think anybody's advised you what the community impact zone is all about but
let me pose three let me ask you for three questions for which i would invite you to answer quite factually
how many people do you do you seat within your restaurant uh 12 people uh 22 we have 12 tables 12 tables
yes so that's how many per table uh two people per table but we have another table for three peoples
just one table for three people 24 25 people
do you understand that um we could consider looking at you if you only have the consumption of food and late
night refreshment on the premises only and you do not provide an off sale
oh yes we understand that you understand do you provide off sale oh no
other colleagues questions
yes thank you um it's just one question to be clear um for clarification uh the application itself
that's probably from
uh the legal side uh i would seek answer
first they did apply
with one of the director originally who submitted the application and now it has been changed
so legally can we go ahead with this application or do they have to submit a new application
no uh it's a simple answer if that was and that's one of the reasons why i've taken quite a lot of
time tonight to make sure we know who is before the committee so that i can advise you properly ultimately
very very simply a company is a person like you or i even though it may seem like an odd concept at times
companies do change directors regularly but ultimately although that person behind the company
might be changing the business is still that particular company that company
so the fact that the director has changed it may well be that you want the questions will arise that
give you concerns to the ability of the new director perhaps compared to the old you to uphold the licensing
objectives and what they understand but as a matter of law it's still the same applicant the more
concerning aspect was the issue of whether or not the intention was a different company to operate this
premises with a very very similar name with the same director but which would have been an entirely
separate person legally and we've ascertained that it's definitely not that company applying it's
still the original applicant z and h1 limited um and so that this application is entirely in order
and whatever you brought whatever your decision is that side of it is not something you need to worry about
okay thank you for that okay thank you for that i have a question for the applicant um can i ask
are you very clear what ciz means and are you aware that where your restaurant is situated
this is not a normal area like dockland or newham uh it is different than the those area are you aware about it
not really sorry
thank you for that
more questions
i think there are no further questions i'm going to invite the objectors to sum up and then i
will invite the applicant to sum up you have a minute each motion
thank you chair um as you've heard um the applicant's uh response in terms of the ciz
they have little knowledge on it and therefore it's difficult to see how they will ensure
um that it is not negatively impacted um you also have not heard anything in relation to license and
objectives you've heard um the the need for a um premises who have longer hours based on the customers
i should emphasize again the need is not a license and objective and business need is not a license and
objective so it should not be considered um and again you've not um heard any sort of um measures that
have been given um from either the free gentleman or from the company on how they're going to maintain
the license and objectives um so the representation remains and members are requested to refuse the
application however if they are minded to grant they should consider the additional conditions that
that have been suggested um and also can i um as you know there's no environmental protection officer
present so therefore can i formally as a local authority officer present the responsible authorities
formally to the committee
it's no mr mr you're a separate entity from that the representation has to be in writing obviously
because otherwise it wouldn't be a valid representation it will be considered and taken into account by the
committee but it's you know you're not authorized to speak um and so and obviously again it might
have been slightly different if you know as sometimes happens mr o'leary asks one of his other colleagues
to appear but i'm afraid not nice to try though okay okay thank you okay for the record i did refer
earlier on to point out exactly where it is in the agenda and we will take the written representation
within our deliberation applicants
could you decide who's going to speak um i i think we pretty much understand like uh
uh this gentleman what he's saying and i pretty much understand like uh brickling is a very uh
very special area compared to other uh area in london and uh i just want to ask is there any uh possibility for us to do another applications
for this because it's being rejected is it
no i don't know what you're saying i think the gentleman's asking if there's any scope for making
another application i mean it's obviously not for the committee to give legal advice or or any sort of
advice on what you do we are considering this application that is before the committee and you've
just been asked to make concluding remarks if you're planning on doing i would suggest that you just simply
focus on the concluding remarks if you're suggesting you might suddenly want to be withdrawing this
application then we need to know but it's you know you're at the end of this application process now
so i think you need to understand whether you're either going to finish the application now and the
committee will make its decision in due course or whether you're suddenly now saying so that we are
all clear and that the members are clear whether you wish to proceed with this whether that you wish to
withdraw this application john do you understand what the point i'm making because if you suddenly
withdraw this application now it goes and the committee does not consider it because you will
have withdraw just do you understand that okay you're entitled to withdraw the application and reapply but
all what will happen is the application is withdrawn
okay i think we understand that we're being our application is being rejected uh it's being
redrawed now thank you clear it's not that your application is being withdrawn if you wish to
withdraw the application it's that that's a matter for yourselves the committee is not telling you to
do that the committee effectively as i say has got to the end of this process the application unless
it's withdrawn the application will proceed and the committee will make a decision whatever that
decision might be we are not the committee is not making any decision to do that but we need to know
what you are doing yeah can i just yeah as i understand if i'm mistaken obviously we are here too
uh the question was from the applicant or one of the three members that can they apply if this application
is rejected now they did use the word rejected yeah if this no what i understood them to be asking was
if my point is Jonathan if i can uh it's chair so my point is if it is the question and if it was the
question that if this application is rejected can we apply then are we or you as a chair in a position
to give the answer so based on that they would be in a position to decide for themselves whether to withdraw
or to reapply thank you from there it's not as i said it's not for the committee to give
legal advice to people on what to do we are considering the application before if the applicants
wish to withdraw the application that's a matter for them and the committee will have nothing to consider
if the applicants wish to proceed with this application and present their closing their concluding remarks to
the committee which they were invited to do the committee will consider it and make its decision
what happens after that whichever way they go it is not a matter for this committee to tell them
what they can go about doing that they need to get their own advice about that um but it might be more
sensible if you're unsure about what the distinction is you might be better off just simply making or
concluding remarks and making the committee make a decision rather than making a decision that's that
you're not fully understanding of yes um sorry so as we as we discussed we decided to uh withdraw our
application for now yes um for the purpose of the meeting and for the purpose of recording
i can say now that the applicant has withdrawn item 4.2 for this evening 4.1 sorry i forgot that
uh 4.1 so um let me recite it absolutely clearly item 4.1 on our agenda which is the applicant is z and h1
rise limited a 46 brick lane london e1 6rf have formally requested to draw withdraw the meeting from
consideration by the subcommittee so we will take this no further thank you
thank you are there any thank you yes yes yes can i please ask the chair members to agree the
following extensions uh subway 379 myelin road london e3 4qs cable street mini market and 403 cable
street london e1w lebanese grill 80 brick lane london e1 6rl bad boys pizza 419 bethland green
road london e2 and braid 9 morgan street london e35aa if members could please extend these till um
the end of february of 2025 so 28th of february 2025 please chair that's a big one that gives us a lot of
the work okay that's that's all for you