Transcript

And we are now going live. Thank you very much indeed. Well good evening to the members of the public, officers and members of cabinet for tonight's cabinet meeting which is Monday the 10th June. I have authorization to sign the minutes of the last meeting that was held on the 13th of March 2024 as a correct record of proceedings. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed. Apologies for absence, Lisa, Lorna. Apologies from Councillor Gioia. Apologies from Councillor Gioia who is here with us this evening. Additional agenda items, Lisa? There are none. There are none. Urge of decisions? There are none. Excellent. Disclosure of interest and dispensations to receive any disclosures by members or disclosure of pecuniary interest, other registrable interests, non-registrable interests in matters on the agenda and the nature of any interest and details of any dispensations obtained. Members are reminded of the need to repeat their declaration immediately prior to the commencement of the item in question. Councillor Brian Drayton, Brian? Thank you, Chair. If I'm allowed to speak later, I should declare I'm a member of Bexhill Bowls Club and Secretary of the Bexhill Open Bowls Tournament. Thank you, Brian. Okay. I understand that item 6 has not come forward. Oh, sorry, I didn't realise your hand was up. It's okay, member of the Bexhill Town Council. Right. For item 10. Okay. Right, item 6 is on my agenda, but that's not on the agenda tonight, is it, Lisa? No. Okay, so the first item is item 7, which is the Hackney Carriage Fairs. This is the report of Richard Parker Harding, Head of Service, Environmental Services, Licensing and Community Safety. Cabinet Lead is Councillor Field, who's... Richard, is it? Okay. Thank you, Richard. Thank you, Chair. This report concerns the setting of maximum fares for Hackney Carriages. The Council has to set the maximum fares that Hackney Carriages can operate. In the past, this has been set by the Licensing and General Purposes Committee, and they last set the fares in January 2023. Last November, the Government published a best practice guidance, which recommended that this function should actually be an executive function. Therefore, this report has been brought to Cabinet. And that's really the only reason why this report has been brought to Cabinet. My view is that there are no reasons to justify increasing the maximum fares at this time. Obviously, the price of fuel and the price of diesel has actually reduced in recent months. And we have not received a request from drivers to increase the fares. And there is a cost associated if we did change all the fares, and we'd have to go out to consultation. So my recommendation is that we continue with the fares as they are. And the Appendix B report actually sets out that in comparison to other authorities, we are in a good position being in very average. So my recommendation is that we approve existing fares. Thank you for that, Richard. Are there any members that would like to make an observation or a question, please? Yes, thank you, Mr. Parker Harding, for that explanation. I have actually spoken to taxi drivers about a sort of a number of issues, one of which, and I think it was at the last meeting or the meeting before where we agreed that taxis would need to install cameras in their cabs. And I understand the cost of installing those is running several hundred pounds. And I just wondered if you'd taken that into account when considering this report, because there I think the taxi drivers are finding now that we've agreed that they must have CCT in there. When you actually, you know, investigated the sort of equipment that you need, it turns out to be very expensive. So could you I'm wondering if you could answer that? The decision to require CCTV in private vehicles and the couches was taken 18 months ago, but it's only being introduced from the 1st of October as a requirement. The cost if a driver hires CCTV equipment is 24 pounds a month. If they purchase it, it's approximately around 550 pounds to purchase it. And there are some minor costs involved if the footage has to be downloaded, which is rare. I think, as I said earlier, I think if the drivers wish us to increase the fares, then they'll see we'll be open to that. And if we received requests from drivers, we would then have to then consult about what the increase should be. So I think we're not saying we won't be increasing the fees in the future, but I think if we receive a request, we'll look at it again. Yes, thank you for that. I mean, I do. I do feel that perhaps it might be useful if the cabinet member with responsibility and maybe one or two others had a meeting with a sort of other representatives or a group of taxi drivers just to sort out what their issue is around the CCTV. But it is building up now, I think, because they've got to have it all in place by the 1st of October. It's sort of, you know, the costs of that are now beginning to become apparent to them. The requirements of the CCTV comes in on the 1st of October, but that will be as the licenses are renewed. So it won't be for new vehicles and as the license is renewed. So it won't be across to all drivers immediately, it will be as their license is renewed. Obviously, one of the issues we do have with the drivers involved is that there isn't a trade association, there isn't someone directly to talk to. And we also have to be reminded that the needs of the BEXO drivers vary from the needs of the drivers in the rural areas. The BEXO drivers, obviously, they do less mileage because they're working mostly in the town itself and therefore what they want as a fare is different from the rural drivers who do large amounts of mileage. When we're setting the fares, it's quite complicated because we have to balance the needs of the BEXO drivers against the drivers in the rural areas. So that's why we have to do a full consultation. If we can get suggestions from drivers how the fares can be changed and we look at it, but we will then have to consult all the drivers and try and reach a compromise between the two needs of the different groups. Thank you, Richard. That really is a licensing matter, I suppose, really more so than what we're discussing this evening. Catherine, did you want to move this report or make any comments, please? Yes, I do want to move the report and I would like to make a few comments. In the matters of fees and fares in general, I have always thought that small annual incremental increases are much better because (a) people are very used to the increase and (b) if you don't do it for a while, you then get faced with a very large increase further down the line, which causes a lot of waves and really upsets people. So I think that needs to be part of the thought process in future years when we're discussing this item. And I do think it's interesting to talk about fuel costs because fuel costs are, as we know from our own personal vehicles, incredibly volatile. I don't think they're an appropriate method for benchmarking fares because they go up and they go down and they can vary hugely in both directions during the course of a year. I think it's a good idea, even though there isn't a taxi trade association, it can't be impossible to work out how to meet a selection of taxi drivers to talk about these issues with them and really understand what their problems are. My personal view on CCTV, which I know isn't an issue here, is that it does protect the drivers in the cabs and we are increasingly litigious these days. An awful lot of malicious accusations are made against all sorts of people in all sorts of areas. My other concern, though, is the cost of fuel. It follows on from that. I would like to see, and I think we as a council ought to be wanting to see far more electric or at least hybrid vehicles in the taxi service because we have made a pledge to get to net zero by 2030, which is six and a bit years away now. Five and a bit years, can't do the sums. And taxi licensing is one of the areas we have actually got control over. So I think, whereas I would never say we've got to do it from next week, I think we need to have a sensible discussion amongst ourselves and with taxi drivers to how we can work towards doing this in the future and certainly within the 2030 timescale. And with that, I'm happy to propose the report. I'm sorry, Jimmy, Councillor, I didn't see that little hand at the top there. Thank you, Doug. Yeah, just quick, after the last licensing meeting, I sat back and spoke to a few taxi drivers and they're looking to reform as a larger group, the Bechtel Taxi Association. So I'm in contact with Dave, who used to be the chairman, and Richard Parker-Harding, I said I'll email him with the taxi driver. So they're looking to reform the group and widen it to a more wider roster as well. So I'm discussing it with him and I'll pass it on to Richard and Catherine. OK, thank you for that initiative. Councillor Charlie Collard. Thank you, Chairman. I'd like to make a couple of points. A couple of years ago, one of my residents who was a taxi driver picked up a couple of young lads who were a bit worse for wear. And when he dropped them off, he didn't want to pay. So he called the police and when the police turned up, the two lads said, well, the driver assaulted us. Now if there were cameras in that car, he could approve it. They were the ones who were being arrested, not him. But it did make a very difficult situation for him. It can protect the drivers of cameras as well. The other thing I've brought up, I've had a few questions from my residents. I've seen at times with some variances on taxi prices, although the prices are clearly stated in the report. One of the questions I've got is, if you pay cash, can you ask for a seat from the driver for cash? Because some drivers have told my residents that after midnight, they don't want credit card payments, they want cash only. Now, if you've got no proof of payment, you feel maybe you've been overcharged, you haven't got any proof because you've paid cash. I know in the report, it says the rubber rate is averaging out about 790 for two miles. From my experience, coming from here to Pegstrom, which is a mile and a half, is about 960, so there's a bit of variance on that. After midnight, the average charge is from one o'clock, is around £18 to get home from here. I just wonder what residents can do if they wish to contact somebody if they feel they've had an excessive charge. Is there a response on that, Richard, that you could guide Councillor Clark? Yes, if the customer asks for a seat, they should be given a receipt. And if the driver fails to provide a receipt, then that would mean they were not complying with our licensing conditions. We set maximum fares behind the carriages. If someone has taken a fare in a private hire vehicle and that our maximum fares don't apply, that's just then a matter of negotiation between the driver and the passenger. If a passenger feels that they have been cheated in any way, then they should complain to the licensing department and we'll investigate it. OK, thank you for that, Richard. I wanted you to clarify that if it's a Hackney carriage fare, can they ask for a receipt for a cash payment? OK, so we've got the report here and the recommendation. We've had the report moved and we've got someone to second that. Thank you, Councillor Theresa Colleen. Thank you very much indeed. So we vote on that and I think that would be unanimous and perhaps we can just make a note that there may be some way that the licensing committee could bring something forward to discuss informally with the taxi operator. If there are concerns, I think consultation is such a right way of doing it rather than imposing things. Thank you for that, Richard and thank you, Councillor. Right, Item 8, Public Spaces Protection Order No. 3/2024, Beaches. This is Richard's report, following a public consultation to make a public spaces protection order to control parking and camping on beaches for six months from the 1st of July, 2024. Richard, I know a lot of work's gone into this consultation. As you can see from the report, there's a significant amount of information that we've gleaned and I think we're all very pleased that we've been able to hold a consultation and get this sort of feedback because often that's not the case. Over to you, Richard. Thank you, Chair. The cabinet agreed in March to go out to public consultation and the appendix B gives you the results of that public consultation. We did have a considerable response to the public consultation and it was generally, the majority were in favour of introducing these controls. The whole issue, well there's two issues really, first of all there's issues around parking and people camping on the beach at Herban Walk and other issues at Canva. Issues at Herban Walk, over the years traditionally people have parked on the beach at Herban Walk but over the last few years the situation has got worse because it's similar to the numbers of people who've been camping there and parking their vehicles there and the length of time that these vehicles have stayed there, these caravans and motorhomes. The situation was particularly bad last summer when we had over 20 vehicles on the beach over the summer and into the autumn. It had an impact on local residents, they were impacted by waste being left on the site and fires and some noise there which really created a sense of fear of crime in that area. The matter got worse as we moved towards the end of September when the contractors who were employed by the Environment Agency were unable to commence the sea defence works and it was only by considerable resources from ourselves and the police that we were able to actually evict all of the vehicles off the beach in time for the sea defence works to start by October. It was slightly delayed but it wasn't catastrophic. So as a result of the consultation the advice is that the evidence to justify making a public space collection order is there and therefore the recommendation is that we do go ahead and make the order from the 1st of July for six months. Within the order there is the ability of the Council to authorize specific vehicles to depart on the beaches in addition to the general exemptions which are given to emergency vehicles, vehicles from the Environment Agency and the RNLI. It is unfortunate we've had had to take this step and it doesn't mean it will impact some people who have been traditionally carried out water sports in that area but particularly Herbrand Walk, it is a 60 mile per hour road, although I doubt many vehicles every day go 60 miles per hour along the road and there are double yellow lines so there is really nowhere legally where people can park and if they do then park on the beach this is then creating the anti-social behaviour we had last summer. So the recommendation is therefore we go ahead and make the public space collection order for six months. Thank you Richard. Questions from within the Chamber? Councillor Timpey, Hazel? Thank you Chair. You did actually touch on this Richard, I just want to be clear. In the consultation the owner of Goose Kite Surfing and Paddleboarding who is on Herbrand Walk, would they qualify for some sort of permit because this is going to affect their business tremendously isn't it? So would they be one of the ones that we would perhaps permit to have some vehicles or not? That business has planned permission to operate its water sports activities there and particularly within the planned permission. It is designated that there is parking for three cars on the hard standing, which used to be the fisherman's hut. So if the cars are parked in accordance with the planned permission on that hard standing then we wouldn't enforce the PSPO in that area. But obviously the problem is that there may be need for further parking but really there isn't really anywhere legally that people can park in that area parked on that hard standing which only can retake three or four cars. Perhaps I could invite Deborah Connealy before Christine. I think that's related to that answer. Thank you. Thank you Chair. Just to add to that, on the other side of the road there is a lay-by there, where the owner of that lay-by does have some parking facilities which is payment. But it is there for people to use. Thank you. Thank you. I thought there was a lay-by opposite. Councillor Coleman and then Councillor Christine Bailey. Thank you Chair. First of all I just wanted to say it's nice to see the new equalities assessment on the end of this report. Actually I find it very useful with my portfolio and I'm glad to see that the issues that the Friends, Families and Travellers charity raised about potential equalities out breaches has been covered in there. It does say that there are no implications for the Council under its socio-economic duty policies. I mean I guess that's probably right but I'm just perhaps playing devil's advocate here just to make sure that's correct. If someone was for example rough sleeping on the beach or was in a situation due to their financial circumstances that sort of led them to camp on the beach, I presume a sort of an approach would be taken that would be sort of to support them first before issuing this PSPO. Because obviously PSPO comes with binds and court procedures and stuff that could get quite costly so I just thought I'd check that. Richard. It's within our standards operating procedures that if we find someone who is rough sleeping who is homeless that we would refer them to the Rough Sleep initiative to make sure they are getting assistance before taking any action. Thank you. Christine, Professor Bayliss. Yes, thank you very much. Well I'm really pleased to see this report and we'll be supporting it this evening. I think those of us that are representing coastal wards, well obviously right across Rother, but particularly in Bexhill will know about the anti-social behaviour and the awful conditions that some of the residents have had to put up with over the really mainly since COVID struck. We've been contacted in the summer every weekend by residents so I'm glad we've listened to people. We've understood what they're going through and on the balance I think this is the right approach but I know it's taken a long time from when we've originally started to get complaints. But it is very welcome that from the 1st of July hopefully, and I assume that our NES officers will be involved in enforcing this, that this will be a thing of the past for those residents that live on Herbend Walk and other places in Rother. Thank you, Christine. Councillor Jimmy Stanger, I know this has involved a lot of your time over this last 12 months and I'm sure you're quite relieved to think there's a process now of helping that. Jimmy. Yeah, thank you Chair, as a member for Herbend Walk and Norman's Bay which is mentioned further down in the report, it's both affected by bad parking and unfortunately the minority have ruined it for the majority here and I think better it will be a better place once it's implemented, there's still some opposition from some owners and stuff like that, but generally I think it's the best balance for Herbend Walk so I think this is a good idea and well done to the officers. Okay Jimmy, thank you. Councillor Field. Yes, thank you. I just feel bound to point out to Mr Parker Harding that the 60 mile an hour speed limit is the national speed limit and it's a ceding, not a target, so we wouldn't be expecting people to be driving down that road at that speed. It's my first point really, but on the whole, I am very pleased to see this report. The consultation responses are very much in favour of us doing this and it's very good to listen to people and actually to do and respond to their consultations positively. I'm also glad to see at the very end the impacts questionnaire being implemented. We all had some training on this some while ago. I think it's a fairly time consuming tool, but it's very good that we are using it, I believe, and I think it would help our decision making in the end. So yes, very pleased to see this. None of us wants to see antisocial behaviour, we don't want to see waste, we don't want to see bonfires and we don't want to see problems. We want our beaches to be clean and lovely and enjoyed by everybody, not just a few in campervans. So very pleased to propose this. Thank you very much indeed for that. Have I got someone to second this report? Thank you Rory. Those in favour? Thank you. It was a significant consultation in numbers. Yeah, if I could just make a couple of minor points. I know it's been voted on now, but anyway. I've got a number of, there's probably half a dozen houses just on the beach in camber that are accessed via central car park. So just as long as they're covered and I don't get phone calls next week, moaning. And the other tiny, tiny point on Appendix A, page 11, right at the bottom, it says, for the purpose of this order, definitions would apply vehicle, any mechanically propelled vehicle. Does that include EVs? Because I wouldn't say an EV is mechanically propelled. Can somebody, you've got a definition for that Richard? My defence is that this definition is provided by the legal department. Right, what have we done? We've proposed it, we've voted on it. And when you're getting this number of consultations back, it does show that people were very interested in getting an outcome here and the outcome is a appropriate outcome. So let's wait till the summer comes and see what happens. Okay, right. Move on. Page 41, I'm told. Okay, so this is another Richard Parker Harding and Councillor Field joint report. So this public space protection order, anti-social behaviour. This is to approve the consultation and make a new public spaces protection order to control anti-social behaviour on the 1st of February 2025. Richard. Thank you, Chair. The Council has a public space protection order specifically to control anti-social behaviour. This order includes bans on people drinking alcohol in public, bans aggressive begging and also bans people sleeping in public places, including vehicles with a viso that were taken for some action if we've already given advice if the person is homeless. This order automatically expires in January 2025 and therefore we need to renew that order or amend the order before then. My proposal, therefore, if members agree, is that we should go out to public consultation to get the view of the public about if there are other forms of anti-social behaviour in the district that they want controlling. It's quite difficult sometimes to predict what should be in these orders. Just because we have these three things in the order now doesn't mean we have to continue with them. But we also need to generate the views of the public about what are things which they are being impacted by anti-social behaviour. And then if it's how much they're being impacted and then whether or not we can then control that by way of the new public spaces protection order. So by going out to public consultation in that way it has to give us the evidence that there is a problem which needs to be resolved. Therefore the proposal is we came out of a sort of open consultation, really just getting ideas from the public about what they feel should be in the new order. Because new issues arise from time to time. When we first made this order we didn't think there'd be such an issue around anti-social behaviour associated with scooters. But now there are issues in some parts of the district with people on scooters causing quite a lot of havoc. The new public space order could control that. And I think that's the way they are designed, is that as new problems arise they can be dealt with by the order and then they might then drop off if they're not in need anymore. That's my introduction, thank you. Thank you Richard. So this is a recommendation to undertake a consultation at a recent meeting I had with officers in Southern Housing. This is a big issue that they find. Anti-social behaviour affects people's everyday behaviour, their lives, everything about it. So I think it's very, very important again that we do a consultation, we get the information and then we can take it forward. Sam. Thank you, Chair. Obviously I've just recently taken on the community safety aspect into my cabinet portfolio. So this is something I'm really interested in, sort of helping see go forward. And I think it is all about balance because on the one end, where there are issues, you need to make sure you can sort them. And obviously the police don't have the resources to be in the streets tackling anti-social behaviour, unfortunately. You also don't want to criminalise certain types of anti-social behaviour that might be better dealt with in a better way. But at the same time, you've got to listen to what people want, listen to where the need is. So I think this is a really good step forward and actually, I don't know if there's a way to do this more often actually and to keep reviewing this quite regularly without too much resource heavy sort of implications. Because I think anti-social behaviour changes quite rapidly. I know in Sidley, for example, where we've had issues, it's graffiti one month and then it's someone kicking over bins the next and then it's windows being smashed. And it's all different things all the time. And I think it just depends on which group of individuals have decided to do it, why they decided to do it and how we best tackle that. So hopefully this consultation will be a good way to hear from the community about that. Thanks for those comments. And did you want to mention anything before you move this? Yes, thank you. I wanted to say that I quite agree with Councillor Coleman and Mr Parker Harding, what we all think of as anti-social behaviour. I'm sure all of us in this room have slightly different takes on what is anti-social and the public do as well. So it could be really interesting and very helpful to find out what exactly the real problems are. But I do think that, as Councillor Coleman alluded to, there are probably other ways of dealing with anti-social behaviour than just having orders to ban it and then trying to get heavy with people. For instance, you can do an awful lot with the design of housing and housing estates to make anti-social behaviour much less easy to do. And I think the same goes with all design and all planning permissions, actually. I think it needs to be part of how we think about what we give permission to, what are the impacts going to be on the way people use the spaces that we're granting consent for. And I think it's about more than just banning it. It's about trying to engineer it out completely. With that then, I'll propose a report. Thank you for that, Catherine. Rory, are you seconding that or are you making a comment? Yes, please carry on. Thank you, Chair. I echo the comments made by colleagues around the table here. Anti-social behaviour does create a sense of despair amongst communities when it's inflicted upon them, but also the need for balance is correct as well. And I would like to see us work a lot more closely with social landlords. Southern Housing, you mentioned, Doug, yourself. And I know that there can be other initiatives to deal with anti-social behaviour, such as what used to be called distraction techniques, working with young people. You know, I mean, there's certain housing associations that have employed anti-social behaviour officers, which are kind of more or less youth officers, to be honest, because they get them involved in sports, they get them involved in skateboarding and also have mobile DJ sessions for them. So a combination of techniques to address the issue rather than simply a legalistic one, I think, is the way forward. Thank you. Right, we'll only second that. Proposed by Catherine. So those in favour, that's unanimous. And thank you again, Richard, just for bringing this forward in good time, so that we can get the right outcomes. I think that's really important. Are you going to leave us now, Richard? The Richard Parker Harding Show is now over. Thanks, Richard. Right. OK, so agenda item 10. This is the report of Deborah Connealy, head of neighbourhood services, devolvement of sports pitches, pavilions and in so many facilities to sports clubs. This has covered the whole of Rother and we need to seek this, even the approval of the report, which who's going to? Councillor Timpy. Yeah, I feel a bit naughty, really, because all the work's been done by Deborah and Anna. But as it says, I mean, you must have read the report. We obviously need to fill this three point eight million gap. And part of that has been the grounds maintenance contract, which is going to be much reduced. And therefore, lots of our sports pitches will not get the service and will not get the fine turf that they require for their sports. So this report sets out in great detail in Appendix one what we're proposing. And I think I need to mention that anything in that list is very flexible and open for discussion. So we are not at the moment saying this is what's going to happen. We just simply need to get on with the leasing or licensing of the particular grounds. We need to have a sustainable grounds maintenance contract going with the sports clubs. And a lot of them have taken this on. There's about nine of them that have agreed, couple that aren't, and one in particular has declined, which is Edgerton, Spartan Bowls, I believe they're called. I'll just touch on that area, really, because it is an area that is open to us to do something really wonderful with. So I want everyone to know that we are looking at that. We're not just going to leave it as a as an unused space. Isn't that right, Ben? OK, so we will also be looking at additional leases for the assets such as toilets and buildings and stores, et cetera. But that has to take place before December 25. But now is the time we need to get these leases approved. So I'd like to thank all the clubs that have spent time with Anna and with Deborah for their cooperation. And I do believe that this is the only way forward for us because we do need to save this money. And I'd like to recommend that we we do give permission tonight for Ben to go ahead. Thank you. A comment, Catherine? Yes, and I've not discussed this with my colleague, but the recommendation is to give the director, as it says, I always hope under these circumstances that it will be in consultation with the portfolio holder. They're always consulting. I'm sure we can insert that into the comments. Brian D'Lessy, Councillor Brian Drayton. Yes, thank you, Chair. Just repeating my declaration as being a member of Bexhill Bowling Club and also secretary of the Bexhill Open Bowls Tournament and clarifying that I'm not speaking on behalf of those, because I don't have a specially for the bowls club. I do not have a controlling interest or any. I'm just a bowling member council to be touched on it. And I just wanted to ask Deborah to confirm again that nothing in relation to the bowling greens at the pogo is set in stone and that the clubs are still able to negotiate aspects of the licenses licenses with the council. I say again, I'm not speaking on behalf of any particular club, but for example, as far as I'm concerned, the first green is the worst green and may not be the one that any club wants to bowl on. And it may be that a different green comes into action. And also a question, I suppose. We've covered that Spartan and Lakeside have said no. Rye previously said no and then changed their mind. Is it open to Spartan, even at this time, if they found they were financially able to do it, to come back in or if we close the door? Perhaps I can invite Deborah to respond to this. Thank you, Chair. Excuse my voice, everybody. We have met with all the clubs individually and we've had various discussions. We have set out heads of terms, but we agreed with the leaders of the clubs at the time that those heads of terms have been set out. But nothing, as you say, is set in stone. And the leaders at the time of the clubs said they wanted certain greens. And that was what was put in the heads of terms. But that can be changed because the lease or the license has not yet been has not been set out. So if anybody wants to change it, we're of course happy to discuss that further. There are four greens at Polegrove and they want one each and we're quite happy for them to have whichever one they want. Plus, I think one may be interested in using the second green for the tank. That's a possibility. But nothing is set in stone. We're happy to discuss that. And in terms of the Spartans and Lakeside Club, if they if they wanted to come back to us with any ideas, then they're welcome to do so. But at the moment, the most recent one was that it was it was not feasible. Excuse me. Thank you. Thanks. Did you want to come back on that, Brian? Thank you, Chair. OK. After all, this has been going on for a couple of years or so. So all clubs and associations have had this this ability to be able to come back to us. And we've encouraged that to be the case. If in respect of Edgerton, they can't get their feet too long because we are looking at repurposing that in some way, shape or form. Because it's an area that is part of the focus point of Edgerton Park. So if the message is out there to them, they've got to come back to you very quickly, I presume. Yes, I mean, we have set a deadline, but obviously the clubs need to be planning their season for next year and planning their grounds maintenance for next year. And we're happy to help with that. But there is a clock ticking. So, you know, we have set a deadline for the licenses for the actual grounds for the November this year. So it's a shorter time. Thank you. Thank you. Christine. Yes, thank you. As the Councillor for Central Ward where the Edgerton Park, Lakeside and Spartans is, I mean, I'm obviously very disappointed that the club decided not to progress. But I understand from club members that there were such low numbers and that it just just was not financially viable. And from a council's perspective, the amount of outlay in maintaining the building there and the green, you know, when you compare that to the number of players. I mean, it was one of the most expensive provisions of sport, I think, in the entire district. And I agree with you, Chair, you know, that we need to sort of draw a line in the sand and then start thinking about future uses. I know that there are several potential uses being talked about. I mean, my big thing would be to reintroduce a nursery into Edgerton Park, which I think would be a fantastic. But I know that there are other options, but I do think we need a sort of line in the sand, maybe, you know, to run this season. And then just to say at the end, you know, at the end of that, that's it. You know, we move ahead with disposing of the land, you know, in whatever option we want to take. Deborah, did you want to make a comment, please? Yeah, just one more thing to add. You know, we do have four burning greens in Polegrove. Only two, it seems, are to be taken up. So that is two that are spare. So the Lakeside and Spartans were encouraged to consider that option of moving up to the Polegrove. So there is that potential as well. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that. Interesting. Sorry, hand up. No, no, Dan. I thought you put a hand up, Catherine. Yeah. So Catherine, Paul. Thank you, Chairman. Yeah. I'm sort of I know I know the reason we're doing this is we've run out of money, ultimately. But it's such a disappointing position to have to find ourselves in. You know, in potentially closing sports facilities, cutting back on sports facilities. We we have a new sort of straplines keeping people active, being active. You know, people are more active, they're less likely to get ill and then they don't need hospital appointment. And so so it's all you know, it gets people out meeting people. So so it's disappointing. I'm sure there's not a member of this entire council that's not disappointed. I'm pleased to see that Ryan have sort of potentially had a rethink and I'm actually talking now as opposed to hope they're talking as opposed to just saying no. It's really disappointing that we're here, but we've got to make the best of it. But my my sort of argument, I won't speak on Bexhill because I'm not from Bexhill. I don't know Bexhill. And I'll sort of speak up for Ry if you like. But I'm not a member of Ry town council. I don't even live in Ry and I don't pay Ry council tax. So 500 yards outside. But I feel we sort of missed a missed a trick. I don't want to go too far off the agenda, but I think I think for sort of 50 years, Ry town council had moaned and berated the fact that Ry borough council gave up the sorts in the first place and all the land and the car parks. And I just think that whilst we're closing facilities in Ry, you know, two toilets, two toilets in Ry we've closed, which is causing sort of aggravation in Angston. We're trying to get the town council to take them on. You know, I think that we should have sort of done a wider reach in sort of look at this and potentially gone down the route of saying to Ry town council, have the have the sorts back, you know, have the cricket sorts, the fair sorts, the town sorts back, take over the toilets. And there's a car park, if you like. That brings in a certain amount of income. You run it. And, you know, got rid of the freehold, got rid of the sort of chain around our neck as a council, if you like, of empty toilets, trying to sort of get people to do them on the cheap, trying to get, you know, it would have been better to have in my reports to have gone to the town council and sort of given them a decent carrot, if you like, of a car park that would have bought the income in and, you know, and they get rid of their special expense and they can set it to the residents and they can and they can run it their own way. But it's probably a thing we've missed. And, you know, I think it's an opportunity that we may have missed, to be honest. Going back to the agenda, there's a bit on free, which the word in, I just want to sort of confirm it. Item 3 is to advertise the disposal of public open space for the land on which these sports pitches are leased as detailed in Appendix 1 are cited. So I'm assuming that the deets, like say the cricket source in Ryde, that is not the entirety of the cricket source that is being disposed of as a public open space, but those bits that are mentioned, such as the cricket square, which has usually got a fence around it in the summer or in the winter, the pavilion, the store, the green store, the irrigation unit, a little concrete bit, you know, a bit of parking. I'm assuming that is what we're disposing of. I hope you're not sort of disposing of the entirety of the cricket source, because if that gets out into Ryde, there will be a riot because the warden's uncle in Ryde walk over there, the kids play over there, and there's a skate park in the corner of it. And if all of a sudden that wording is specifically tight, that includes disposal of the entirety of the cricket source to the cricket club in the winter space so they can put a fence around it and say no one's allowed in. I think it says, Paul, it says the cricket pitch, square and outfield, and it's that area there that the cricket club negotiations we've had with, they know exactly what they're taking over, and I don't think they'll be taking over any other land that is included in that. Going back to your original point, I must challenge you on the basis that we've been talking to parishes, clubs for two to three years now. We're not talking about toilets tonight, that's not on the agenda, it's sports fields and open spaces. And officers have undertaken significant time in coming up with so many proposals, and I think that where we must support officers to have brought this forward for that sort of reason, I think that town councils, for example, the parish councils, they're elected, they have a responsibility to their community to make the right sort of decisions, and everything has been very, very, very flexible to accommodate any decisions they wanted to make. So I'm not totally in agreement with some of the points that you made, but I appreciate your comments, nevertheless. So this is an important piece of work, it's taken many, many hours of officer time to bring it to this. Lots of conversations with the clubs, and as Councillor Timpley mentioned, nothing is set in stone, we've just got to move towards that final conclusion. And it's not too late for any group to come to us and say, Well, can we vary this, or can we look at that? Because the Director of Place and Climate and the Portfolio Holder, with the opposite team, have that dispensation to make it work. And that's absolutely important. If I can just come up, I didn't want to sort of, I'm not sort of knocking anybody's work. And to be honest, it does take two to tango, and you know, I could almost say, Well, I'm just as disappointed with my town council who could have done more. But that's just, it is an awkward position, and the position we find ourselves in is one that obviously none of us want to be in, to be honest. Having to cut stuff like this. We've made the best of what we can, and I'll be quiet. We are where we are. I'd like to invite Ben Hook, because Ben has been leading some of this work alongside with Davros. Perhaps you might want to just add some comments, Ben. Thank you, Chairman. Yeah, I just wanted to be clear on what Section 123, Disposal of Public Open Space, is. It's just that it's exclusive, it enables us to give exclusive possession of that piece of land to a third party. At the moment, those areas are free to roam, they are able, you know, you're able to walk across it. And we can license it out under a, you know, rent it out under a sports pitch game and other such things. What's being proposed here on certain ones is specific leases which will enable possession of that piece of land for them to maintain it in accordance with their needs as a sports club. So I just think it's important for people to understand that. That doesn't mean to say that those leases won't, won't include provision to enable public access when they're not being used for sports purposes. That will need to be negotiated as part of that lease possession. But it is important that we make it possible for those clubs to maintain those pitches in a way that they continue to be usable when they're not being played on, if you like. And at times they may need to, they may need to prevent public access to those spaces in order to do that. Thanks for that clarity, Ben. Catherine? Thank you. I was just wondering really, because the town I know well runs its own sports facilities and do all the villages I know. I wanted to ask Miss Keneally, if I can, through you, are there any parishes for whom we run their sports facilities? No, there isn't. A couple of years ago I met with the officials of Rye Cricket Club and I see that Philip's here this evening. And they were so excited in order to be able to get hold of the control of their playing area. Their pavilion over there is superb. The whole facilities are superb. And I think it's only right that club members who create these facilities and look after them, carry on with them perpetually to be, to fund the community. And I think this is an important way that we want to go forward. I think it's absolutely vital that we do that. And we can't afford to subsidise sports facilities to the extent that was happening. And there was an example given to me about one bowling green and Ben, I think you did come up with a cost per member. Perhaps you'd like to repeat it? Yeah, I think we looked at it, it was about £500 per member per year in subsidy from the council to support that goals club. Thank you for making that comment. So I think we're where we wanted to be on this one. Hazel, your report? I propose, I already proposed it. Your proposing report and somebody's going to second the report. We've already done that, have we? So we vote on that report and that is unanimous and thank you very much indeed and thank you very much for members of the public that have arrived here this evening. The meeting will close at 1923. [ Silence ]