Transcript

Thank you to your meeting. My name is Councillor Kabir Ahmed and as Vice Chair I'll be chairing the meeting as Councillor Abdul Malik has given his apologies. So some members will be joining us online. Have we got anyone online? No? I think all members are here actually. So have we got anybody joining us online or everybody's present? Everybody's present, Chair. Thank you. So with that, what I'll do is do a round-robin of everybody if you can introduce yourself and state if there are any DPIs. So I'll start with myself, Councillor Kabir Ahmed, no DPIs. Councillor Tabitha. Councillor Abu Choundry, no DPIs. Councillor Shafiur Ahmed, no DPIs. Councillor Asma Islam, no DPIs. Councillor Abdullullah, no DPIs. Councillor Abdullullah, I have to declare. Councillor Kamrul Hussein, no DPIs. I'd like to also let the committee know that Councillor Kamrul Hussein is deputising for Councillor Abdul Malik. If officers can introduce themselves as well, please. Justina, start off. Justina Bridgman, Democratic Services Officer. Shakespeare, Head of Corporate Human Resources. Councillor Asma. Councillor Asma. You know some of us are union members. Do we declare that every meeting? Okay, I'm a member of United Union and GMB. So if we move on to minutes, minutes from the 12th of December 2024 have been circulated. Can we confirm if they're correct or if any amendments need to take place? Agreed? Okay, agreed. All right. So, agenda item 4.1 is reports for consideration. So 4.1 is Corporate Director Updates. Our first item is Corporate Director Updates. And I'd like to welcome Steve Riddie, Corporate Director of Children's Services, to talk to us about his department and give us any updates. Steve, you have five minutes. Thank you, thank you, Chair. So, I think looking at the packet, page 39 of your papers. We've just included some information. I won't go through any of it. Just in terms of some of the key statistics that affect children and families. Some of it will be very familiar. I won't go through some of that. The next slide is just some financial information. Again, this is very, very much headline, education budget. So, that's some key statistics. The next slide is just in terms of how does children's services fit into the strategic plan of the council and some of it child healthy weight, etc. So, those are some of our key drivers. We've then included a couple of slides just on performance measures. And, again, I've got a couple of colleagues on this committee who are also on overview and scrutiny who have talked to about some of our indicators. Again, just to think we have re-offended to show you that number is actually going down. There's a range of other indicators there that, you know, again, I won't take up lots of time in terms of the green performance. But we're very proud of a lot of the performance. We've got a slide on inspections. You might have noticed we've hardly mentioned it ever, but we've got outstanding ILAX inspection. And, again, well done to all the staff and partners and all the children. There's much to be proud of in our borough around education. And then on to structure. So, page 47 of your pack is the sort of high-level structure. I've been in post now for a year. I've been permanent since April. It's still a work in progress. There's a couple of permanent director hosts. One is the director of families and one is the director of education. The rest is still pretty much a work in progress in terms of the part of the council working more closely with education and youth services already. So, that's the sort of high-level structure. As I said, the reason is, we know who you are, Steve. You're doing a great job. Sorry. Can you just allow Steve to finish his report? And then you can come in. But note it down. And then you can come in. You're welcome to come in. Thank you, Councillor and Chair. HR College, I can talk to you about which officers are in those roles, certainly. So, the director of education, there's a range of roles under there that are linked to work in progress. So, it's currently called director of commissioning and youth. We're working on a job description, which is more likely something around children's. So, that's the group of officers with their teams who've worked really hard to get us well. Steve, you're overrunning by two minutes, but I'll give you one minute to finish off. With the social care inspection, that team have worked really hard. Then I've got a slide which sort of lists the functions underneath each of those areas. And then we've got housing regeneration, economic activity, et cetera. So, that head of employment skills will go to David, but the youth employment bit will probably sit with young kids. Young Tower Hamlets. And then just very quickly. If you can wrap up, Steve. Sorry, Young Tower Hamlets structure. We've got an interim head of the youth service and some group managers. Well, we're just working through and potentially some other services. So, that will be a bigger role. And we hope to finalise that and advertise it within the next few months. Thank you, Steve. And let me start by congratulating yourself and your whole team and our partners in getting an outstanding. It is an achievement. And I think we should celebrate that. So, I think I would be correct on behalf of the committee to congratulate the whole service in achieving that outstanding. I can see Councillor Ulla is eager to ask questions. So, for members' questions, we'll start with Councillor Ulla. Maybe not so much, Steve, because obviously, but more for legal and HR. I've always asked for names, and I think the last meeting we asked for names of the service heads and sort of senior management. Who'd like to go first? Katrina. I will. Thank you, Chair. The focus is very much in terms of the post, and we can't follow these. Chair, with your permission, I've asked for that, and I would like to have that, if it's not too much trouble for someone in HR to provide the senior structure. There isn't the senior post there. Can I suggest future reference if we can have, if needed, a confidential paper? So, because this is published in public, maybe four members, with the further details on for those who need that detail. That way, we would cover all ends. Right, Asma? Do you want to come in? So, I've got my set of questions, but on the back of that, I don't know, inquiries and things like that, so, I don't know, it's added another layer of mystery to this now. But I've got my set of questions, which I can ask. So, if I can respond, I think, would like names further down, then please say so. Sure, just for clarification, it'll help everyone's, I think, and I'm not being peculiar, although I can be. I think anybody who has two, three pages, their name should be disclosed. That's a given. I'm not asking, I know what my bin man's name is, I just happen to know who he is. I know my traffic warden. I don't need to disclose his name publicly, unless he gives me a ticket. However, these names are on these boxes, they should be, as a matter of just good practice. I'm asking the envoys, can you find those information, names for me, please? Sorry, Abdel. I would say, I would politely disagree, and I'll leave it to our lawyers, because if you go on to page 52 and beyond, you'll see that there are more junior members of staff included in there. And just because the positions are within the document, it doesn't necessarily mean those officers need to be highlighted in the public domain. However, I think it's a fair representation to say that if we had a confidential document with the names populated on it, then members can be reassured that they would have access. But in any case, I think most inquiries and raising issues should be done through members' inquiries and via corporate directors and directors. And also, in relation to officer member protocol, service heads fall below that direct approach, unless NHR and our legal officer, Carol, can correct me if I'm wrong. But officer member protocol goes to corporate director and director level generally. Yes, that's correct. And also, I think it's important that service heads have oversight of somebody at the bottom and then it going upwards. Okay, Councillor Abdi Mohamed. Thank you, Chair. I've got a few questions, but I'll start from my head. Yeah, it's really important. Councillor Esma. Thank you. I get the point about recruitment, and do we think there's going to be any further changes? I think benchmarking salaries that has been commissioned by a HR department has been really positive by social work staff. Thank you, Chair, thanks, Chair, thanks, Steve. To tackle some of your challenges, what significant investment or projects or plans do you have moving forward? I think the report's on from the youth service, and we will be doing that in due course. Right, Steve, last question from me, and then we'll move on to the next agenda item. So I wanted to hone down on child protection, and I know we got outstanding, but I just wanted to find out. I know we work really well with external partners and third-party organisations, particularly around core groups and case conferences. I've been to many myself with an independent chair. But the question focuses around are we still operating silo working within the council? So departments like housing and other areas within the council, are we interlocking that? Because it's been a few years since I've attended a core group in Tower Hamlets or a case conference in Tower Hamlets. But previously, I've seen professionals all around, but certain elements from the council which play a pivotal role in tracking, monitoring, and supporting have been missing in those areas. So I don't know if there's an opportunity or if we're already integrated that in. Sorry. So if there is a child-in-need plan or a child protection plan in place, there'll be regular meetings between key people who are involved with that family. So it could be the father's drugs worker, for example. So, no, after the MASH referral, once the actual sort of process starts of social workers being involved and so on and so forth, a case conference is chaired by an independent, I think we have six in Tower Hamlets. And then all the separate parties come in for six-monthly reviews and all the reports go into escalation as such, or if it needs to go up in escalation. So I'm just focusing on the child protection element of it or children safeguarding, but I suppose the same would apply institutionally for the council with adult safeguarding as well, particularly, I'll use my portfolio example of housing. Things like dampened mould and all sorts of things can attribute to reasons for not staying at home and therefore associating outside and various other things and therefore getting involved in... ...by housing with our social care sector. So that's really positive. But we'll just take the opportunity just to flag something that I guess all of us need to... It's been a long day. Do I need to declare that I've got a sibling that works in children's services in the council? Okay. So, Justina, if you could just... Note it. That's fine. No problem. Probably outstanding. Don't worry. All right. So, if we can move on to the next agenda item, as this was a noting report, and everybody agrees, I'm assuming, to note the report. Thank you. So, the next is an update on senior recruitment. If I can ask Julie Lorraine, Corporate Director, Pauline Shakespeare, and Katrina Hunt, to, between yourselves, present this report, please. The long-listing meeting now for those particular roles. Sorry, Katrina. The report reads, long-listing, week commencing 24th. When it was written. So, that's just been confirmed now. Do members have questions? Positive one for once. And just to say thank you to recruitment processes. Thank you. Sorry. Julie, do you want to come in? Yeah, I just wanted to make a comment, which I think would be informative for all of the committee members. So, the term HR is wide-reaching, isn't it? And there's lots of specialisms within it. One of our priorities is to keep a look at, so that you can really see where were we, what changes have we made, what difference has it made. And for me, from customers for me, so Steve Reddy's a customer of that service. So is David Joyce. And certainly the feedback I get around the work that Stuart has been doing is being incredibly positive. So, if Council's made an improvement in that, I think you'd be very happy. Thank you, Julie. Asma, you had questions? Yeah, two. So, it's positive to see that there are nowadays that you've given a rough estimation, which is good. But I worry that some of these dates, and I know I have a real positive to see that it kind of really helps us to understand that's where we are in the journey. The other positive I wanted to say was, there was one, sorry, it was a positive. When I think of it, I'll give it to you. We'll take the positive in any case. Yeah. All right. Councilor Ola? Just on the back of that, a positive. I think it's positive. In my head, I think it's positive. The dates are great, and I think, you know, diverse and depending, and I think it was memorable of the people we were about to interview. So, that's it. Okay, Asma, come in. Thank you. It's such a good positive. I actually do want to share it. This is, like, I've been a counsellor for seven years. This is the first time where these posts, some of these posts, have been advertised so well. I've seen it in so many different circles, so that means you've actually really reached out and really gone out there. So, well done on the advertising of the post. All right. Thank you, Abdel. We've got smiles all around. That's always a positive in this council. All right. So, can we note the report and move on? Yeah. Thank you. All right. So, agenda item 4.3 is employee relations, casework policy, quarterly review. So, I will ask, again, Pauline Shakespeare to introduce this report. You have ten minutes, but you can give us an overview if you feel the need. I'm assuming all members have read the report. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Chair. So, this is the Q3 report. So, executive summary, I'll just walk you through and allow time for any questions if needed. So, as you see, we have redesigned the dashboard. So, let me be clear. So, let me be clear. Sorry. Q3, 31st of December, 2024. So, we've redesigned the dashboard. So, it's now much clearer. I think you'll find it's much clearer in terms of the visual data than you previously had before. We also now track, which we hadn't previously done, at the duration of each case, and that is just, and that is also to hold us accountable, but also the main aim is for us to reduce the time that is taken to resolve formal cases. It should be noted for this quarter, there has been a reduction in overall pair to previous quarters. Q1, 57 were open, Q2, 68, and we're now down to 56 in Q3. The, the, also, the time taken to resolve cases is also improving. I do need to bring to your attention, because I'm sure you will, you will note that the Communities Directorate has the highest number of ER cases, and these are main, these are mainly disciplinary cases, and only disciplinary cases. We've got, in terms, we've got 56 open, closed, 46, and that is in terms of our employee base of 6201, which is resources, where we have, where we have four. Sorry, sorry, Pauline. Can you direct us to the pages, because the numbers aren't correlating to the numbers you're saying, which is on there. Page, sorry, my, my apologies. Page, yeah. That's a big copy of it, we can't do it. You, you too. So, sorry, executive summary is page 68. 68, yes. Yep. Sorry, looking at the data sites on there, because the figures seem substantially higher. Yep. Okay, we're on par now. Are you, you're back with me. Okay, great. So, if we look in terms of, so page 70, to be clear, we see that we've broken it down by case type, and how many cases sit in each directorate. So, if I just have a look in terms of my own directorate, in terms of, in terms of, if we look, sorry, at chief execs, an example there, we've got two, we've got four cases in total. Two are disciplinary, and two are disciplinary, and to our, to our grievance, in terms of, in terms of type of case. And you'll notice, you'll notice something that, that permeates real, and that is, if I bring your attention to the performance, you'll notice that we have very few cases, it says to me there is a question there, which we are looking at. In terms of, in terms of resources, if I look in terms of grievance, you'll see that there are, it's got a duration of cases that are open, and then we've done that via each quarter, so you can see what the performance has been in, and over 180 days, we have 19 cases currently, over 120, we have eight cases, and over 60 days, we have 12. So, we are improving, in terms of that, that's data that we don't have available, it wasn't you, it wasn't you. I thought, I thought you might, I think it was, I think it was a question that may have, that may have come up, but it wasn't captured, but I did capture it. It is something that we don't provide at the moment, but it is something that I've got data going forward. Is that the end of your report? If you could switch, no, that's fine, you're perfect for time. If you could switch your mic off. Okay, so this time, I'm going to start off with questions. So, the first thing is around, so you mentioned one case has gone to hearing, and a number have been closed. Can I just understand the process that operates, in terms of, so, if cases go to hearing, do we close it here, or, and where do we get the outcomes of hearings that take place? Is that presented back to the committee, or that's, where would that be logged for, because there should be some kind of a reporting mechanism to members in relation to any council business through whatever relevant committee that there may be. So, just want to get an understanding of that, because I think it's important that both members need to ensure that the council itself has those learnings implemented. And if there's no mechanism of reporting, we're not suited up in order to make sure that that's covered robustly. So, in the first question of the exam, if one goes to hearing, does it stay on the list? Absolutely, absolutely, because it's still in a process, it's not been closed. The definition of closed for me is that there is an outcome of a hearing, and that any, it's resolved, it's accepted, so it isn't still ongoing. Because to me, that's still an unresolved position. In terms of reporting outcomes, as an organisation, we should be monitoring outcomes in terms of, you know, was the grievance upheld or not. So, rightly, you will want to oversee it. It would be wrong of me, not to mention one of my objectives is, as part of our cultural change, I would like to see a reduction in the number of grievances raised. And that's not because I don't want staff to feel comfortable raising a grievance if they need to. I do, I do, but I think that there's an obligation on management to resolve early on and informally, if you possibly can, issues heard and resolved is via the formal grievance route. So, I would like to see this reported a bit like we do the complaints type. Next time, come back with some categories. So, classification of grievance, get your views, are you satisfied that they are giving you the snapshot? And outcomes upheld, not upheld, and most importantly, one of the things that frustrates trade unions, has frustrated trade unions, I know, is an outcome of a grievance happens and then nobody does the actions that work. So, to me, it's not outcome, it's completed. So, we can have accusations next time as a suggestion, like we've done this time. If you want to add to it or change it, you can. But I'll bow to HR's expertise as to what those should be. Is that okay? So, Julie, just picking up on that, one other thing, and I don't know if legally we have access to that information or we need it in a confidential paper. Particularly when it comes to sort of individuals going to hearings and sort of out-of-court settlements or whatever else it is, because that should be attached to the outcomes and we should be aware of what it is that's been conceded. And I suppose that kind of blurs into the legal realm as well. But as an outcome, we should have an understanding of, because for me, that doesn't necessarily mean that you've resolved the issue per se, but the issue that was raised, but you've come to an agreement and what learning we've done in relation to that as well. And I will ask Pauline to pick up the learning, but just to be clear, I think in the case when Pauline referred to hearing, she meant an internal grievance hearing, not an external court hearing. They are completely separate. So, an external hearing, by definition, would have had to have satisfied or exhausted, and we're now ready to formalise that in an internal hearing as part of the process. Sorry, I apologise for monopolising the time, but I'm just trying to navigate around that. So, that's to do with disciplinary hearings, grievance, but what happens if, for example, an employee is unsatisfied with the outcome of a bullying issue or a harassment issue or whatever it may be? When would we close it on our system and then that employee chooses to go to a tribunal and the tribunal either finds in favour of the council that you've run the process correctly or the tribunal feels that the council has treated the individual unfairly and therefore puts whatever it is. That's the area, that's the area, sorry, my kind of line of questioning was headed towards that. I'm involved in the internal process as I've sat on many appeals committees, but that's the direction I was following. And I think that's a slightly different report, so you know that every now and again, I think it's Carol actually, pulls together the ET caseload. Caseload and overview on those ones. Thank you, Carol. Okay, any other members? Hands going up. Who to go first? Councilor Isla. Coming back to this, I gave crash the beginning of that, so I really get to understand what's going on. But I think that forum, having an oversight of that picture will help us, are the exception and not the norm. So I would like Trade Union Forum to see summary data like this that we could capture on that. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. So I always talk about P, which for me is preventative. What can, so it is work in progress. I'm not going to say that we're there yet. But in terms of learning, it's for us, it is a continuous thing so that we do improve. So that, as Julie says, and I agree with her, our formal processes will go, but it's a work in progress for us at this stage. Thank you, Pauline. Councillor Abdi? Thank you, Chad. I've got two quick questions. One in terms of, on pace, to the point of a subcommittee where, you know, it's cross-party and actually there is some pretty dire situation to come to that. And obviously it's completely confidential, the right thing so. It would be helpful. There does need to be reassurances that there is something there. Right, Julie, would you like to? Yeah, and I think you did touch on it, but I just want to make it clear. And enable the council to expedite changes to a structure. So I just want to say, I think, you know, we need to be really careful that exit agreements don't necessarily mean that there's been a bad apple. That being said, I do think, and I seek advice from Carol, and maybe we've got a few recently, certainly in my area. But I don't think that there's anything that then ensures that it can't enforce, because I know in the private sector, it's a big issue. If I could just say, I think that then goes into, outside of council policy per se, into employment law and human rights law and so on and so forth. So I think it's a more complex scenario than the council just having a simple waiver of stating, you know, you can't work here anymore because you've been dismissed for A, B, C, D. And I think time lengths and spend, I mean, people can go into prison, reform, come out and still live in civil society as non-judgmental as possible, particularly wearing certain hats we wear. Okay. Right. Asmat, you had a question? I have a question. I wasn't planning to ask it. It just came. My question is around, I understand if they were a bad apple and there's a prevention part of it, but there's also about the best value part of... Is it in the council's commercial interests to enter into this settlement? And if the answer from a lawyer is yes, and usually they're quite specific, usually they'll say to me, And that's what I'm saying, councillor, a lot of exit agreements are done, not because the person did anything wrong, but because it was in the council's interest. So examples include, and in principle, that person was never proved guilty. It would have only been the court process that did that. So we've got to be honest and open about these things and say to character, because it doesn't always mean that. I think also in relation to that, there's also some individuals who may leave an organisation, such as taking redundancy, but then gain experience elsewhere and want to come back for a promotion. Or some individuals want to slow down their work progression, because they've reached where they wanted to reach. And maybe after retirement, they want to come back and do sort of more junior positions. So there is movement up and down as well. I've certainly seen that in my career. It happens. All right. Are there any more questions? If not, if we can move on. All right. I'll take that as we are moving on. Okay. So 4.4. So was the update on the ACAS meeting. So we're due an update on the ACAS meeting. And I think, Pauline, you're going to say a few words on this. Yes. So we did say that we would give you a quick update. So the services now updating you fully will be in the next committee meeting, which takes place in May, because obviously we need to allow time for some of those actions that we spoke about in December, if you remember, to be embedded. So there will be a fuller update that will happen in May. But just to let you know that it has now moved to under David Joyce. One trade union advised me that there had been a ballot and the numbers of ballot did not merit strike action. So there wasn't a positive move for strike action. The formal trade disputes in housing are slightly different. If I'm honest, it's like trying to nail a jelly to a wall. But the formal trade dispute fundamentally is about stress, caseload and workload of a group of staff. There is a transformation programme in place. The trade unions are engaged in that. Has it resolved all of the issues yet that will reduce the caseload and remove that to January? Accountability for the progress of that rested with me. It's now moved. So the update I've just given you is, up to that point in January, that's where we were. I hope that, I don't know that that trade dispute has now been formally closed. I would like nothing more. We recruited more staff. But they take time to train. So there's a lag between recruiting staff and the impact on that caseload. And I think it is caseload. Sorry, just a request then. Can we maybe invite David Joyce as the next corporate director to give her, alongside the more follow-up date, maybe he can present and then actually we can have that conversation there. So when's the next meeting due? I'm sorry, I've got it. On the 6th of May. Sorry, I'm just going to ask Julie. Would that be, and this is from a HR perspective, would that be enough time to embed in any issues? Because if we need possibly the meeting after in order to see kind of traction, would it be better to come the meeting after than immediate next meeting, only to get a partial report or rather prefer a fuller report? So if I can ask our HR colleagues. I would agree with you, Chair. Yeah, so not May, it would be... The meeting after May is... So the committee is likely to change with the AGM and everything else coming up. So I think that will give an opportunity to embed that in as well. But if we could even... If we could get a few paragraphs as a noting report in order to give us as a committee an update, as opposed to... Because the cabinet member for housing and, you know, just saying... I made a suggestion, I asked the experts in the field regarding that. I'm happy to concede if members feel there was a conflict of interest. I don't feel there was a conflict of interest in relation to that. But nonetheless, if that is what the committee wants to decide, then I'm happy to go by that. Just to make it clear, my thinking process wasn't related to me being a cabinet member in relation to this. In relation to ACAS involvement and the unions and officer involvement in negotiations, the cabinet member is not involved in these processes. It is solely dealt between the unions and the officers in relation to internal working relationships and issues raised through the council structure. So if you want to propose that and members want to vote on it, I'm happy to have David Joyce present at the next meeting. I don't have an issue with that. Chair, quick response, and so it might not have been intentional in that way, but I wouldn't be doing my job if I hadn't pointed that out. So, point noted, and I don't... Everything that's going on in the council, let's just all agree, we don't have to take a vote. It's just asking for us a very simple five-minute update from David Joyce. Sorry, can I just confirm, we have another corporate director for the next meeting, so are you saying that you prefer David Joyce instead? Or you prefer... Okay. Julie, did you want to come in? Yeah, just for complete transparency. The grievance, the collective grievance that was put in, had a number of facets to it, and all of those were captured in the ACAS meeting, which I was party to, and all of those have been... The trade dispute is about caseload. Okay, I'm happy to go forward with that. If we can ask David Joyce to give us a verbal or a written update for the next meeting, that's fine with me. All right. So, now let's move on to AOB. Now, there's one item on the AOB, which at the last meeting we deferred, which was the appointment subcommittee, terms of reference and membership. Before we consider this report, can I ask members to agree reasons for urgency as set out in the report? Yeah, just unanimously agreed. Joel, can I ask you to introduce the report, please? Yeah, good evening, Chair. And first of all, I'm... ..which members will be aware is a subcommittee of the Human Resources Committee that determines the appointment to Chief Officer and Deputy Chief Officer posts. As I know in Section 3, specifically in paragraph 3.6. And the current terms of reference of the appointment subcommittee are attached as the appendix 1 to the report. I have to say, welcome any questions. Members? Councillor Chaudhry. Thanks, Shaola. Thanks, Chair. So, in terms of the recommendations, first one is fine. It's just noting proportionality. In terms of the second one, I had a suggestion so the fact that Aspire have 22 members and Labour have 16 members, I wanted to put forward a suggestion where you're currently proposing that there's two, two, and one ungrouped. I'm proposing to have six members, three Aspire, two Labour, and one ungrouped. And I'm referencing, in terms of reference 1.2c, I think for us it's important as the Aspire group that we put forward diverse candidates as well as obviously Labour and ungrouped. And it's with that in mind and the fact that we have eight more councillors than the Labour Party, I feel we should look at the number on that committee and increase it by one. So, Aspire have three, Labour have two, and ungrouped have one. Yes, so it's perfectly within the power of the committee to make that determination if the councillor wants to propose it as an amendment and we go through the normal nominations. Just to confirm your numbers are correct, if the subcommittee were to increase to six, it would be three to respond to the ungrouped members. Sorry, can I just add to the proposal? And then, if that's all right, you can come in. So, I'd like to just formally put it on the table so we can discuss this and vote on it. But also, I wanted to suggest that the chair of that committee is one of the executives. So, again, my understanding is within the power of the committee to determine how it wants to set up its subcommittee and if it wished to discuss and vote on that. Sorry. Before we move on to debate about this legal officer, is this legal and within the council's constitution? It's within, excuse me, to be cautious about making that decision specifically. Sorry. My understanding of the proposal was the chair not necessarily being a set person, but a member of the executive, which is the largest group within the council. I don't think the proposal suggested a predetermination either. It suggested a make-up, if I'm correct, and it suggested a chair being appointed from the largest party and the executive. I don't think it defined who that individual would be within that. So, I don't see a predetermination per se in terms of individuals who are involved within the subcommittee. That's noted. Are there concerns that need to be flagged with the committee tonight? So, we've heard what the monitoring officer's concerns are, but just for clarity, it is within the power of this committee legally in order to take this proposal forward for debate and therefore make a decision on that. Am I correct in that? You are correct. It is within the... Thank you. Sorry. I see people want to speak. Okay. Councillor Islam, I think you had your hands up first, and then we'll take Councillor Abdi Mohamed, and then we'll... I really wanted to come in really early on after Councillor Chowdhury's point because there was an instinct that was telling me there was going to be a train crash, and I couldn't avoid it still. I had a question, which is about the ungrouped members. If it looks like they're not taking up a lot of committee positions, what happens if they don't take up a position? Does that mean it can still carry on meeting, and it can meet with just the two parties if there isn't any participation from a single ungroup? So that's a question, what happens in that scenario? I just want to say something for the records and for the minutes, from my point of view. I would like it stated that I understand fully as a Councillor that this committee has the power to vote for a decision, whatever it may think is appropriate for them. But as a Councillor, it is my job to still point out some of the issues that I have seen in that committee when I've sat on it, and what we've been taught by legal officers representing, the legal representation officers in HR and in different departments, is that we were told and always have been told that that committee is not political number one. We go in there with an open mind, and we don't even discuss with our party colleagues, firstly. Secondly, there was a proposal put on the table about having... It wasn't dictated that it had to be the same person, but what was indicated was it had to be an executive member. So I'd like to know what problem is this going to solve? To which end was this proposal put forward? What is it trying to achieve? That committee is supposed to be able to base a decision on the evidence and the information that is provided in that committee. For you to pre-prepare how a political make-up is, who chairs it, that really rings an alarm bell for me, and I would ask and urge members in this committee to reconsider before they actually, if they choose to vote for this proposal, especially given that officers have given us some guidelines of what good practice looks like. This is really worrying, and I want this noted. Thank you, Councillor Isla. We've just heard from officers who have advised us against and to pursue this course of action, where a matter of only weeks ago, the envoy has been appointed and the backdrop of a best value, which has seriously questioned our governance and actually made recommendations. And we've all moved forward in the spirit of trying to make the council better. I think to try and make these changes, at eight o'clock, when we're about to close the meeting, for a non-executive committee, I think is disappointing, and I think I want it noted and noted that this is in the spirit of moving forward. I think there's a lot of good words used, and actually this is one of them. So just to be absolutely clear, my question is, legal, I think, isn't to pursue this. So can I just confirm that the legal monitoring officer has advised against this course of action? Just a simple yes or no would be really helpful. Simple answer is yes. Thank you. So I want it noted and minuted that the monitoring officer of this council has advised this committee against this course of action. But yeah, if we do pursue this, I seriously question the governance here because this is not appropriate. Noted. Councillor Chowdhury. Thank you, and thank you for the comments. Just as a response, I wanted to mention a couple of things. So in terms of it being eight o'clock and the fact that we're discussing this here, this isn't being rushed into a decision or just somehow being sprung. This is when we got to this agenda item. I couldn't speak about this at the first agenda item. So regardless of time, this is when we had to discuss it. In terms of it being non-political, I said nothing about the politics of it. We have to make a decision on how many numbers of Aspire members, how many numbers of Labour members and how many number of ungrouped members we want in this committee. In terms of predetermination, that's something that I had made no inference to, no suggestion, and the fact that I made a comment about or a suggestion that we consider the chair being an exec is because the last however many years, so the last two years, an exec member has been chairing the committee. Yes, the process of selecting that chair may be fresh every single meeting, but the fact has been an exec member has been chairing the committee every single time. So that was my rationale in making that suggestion. And once again, reiterating the reason for increasing the number, so Aspire have three, Labour have two, because in my understanding of proportionality, we have far more councillors and feel that that should be reflected in the committee numbers. Councillor Ola. I think we were doing really well, not because the envoy is in town. I think this group of councillors and the committee operates really well. I just hope Councillor Chaudhry might want to reconsider withdrawing this, not because it's late in the day and I'm happy to stay too late. I have energy. I've had a full bottle of water. But it's in the spirit of what new monitoring officer who isn't here, but I speak about her through the other members of staff here, has given good advice. So somebody from either the exec or the ruling party has brought this to the attention of the monitoring officer for this level of information to be shared. And the fact that the information is shared shows that whatever indication or the reasons for the Aspire party bringing this has been put down. So you're still pursuing this. I think it's in the good interest of the council and for openness and fairness to pursue this. And so nobody questions that there is predetermination in any future appointment and so forth. So I would say, not this time, but all time, that we take good advice from monitoring officers. We take good advice from legal, but we also challenge. But I think on this particular issue, I don't really want to challenge. I think it's very important very sound advice. There was a clear crystal yes, I think I heard. So on that notion, I'm speaking for myself. I know I've got two colleagues from my Labour party here. I don't think we will feel comfortable in voting for this. And should this Aspire party here want to vote for this for a public meeting, I'll be sitting on my hand and let that be known. So I think I should also take an opportunity to speak as I've served on the majority, I think bar one appointment on every single appointment on every single appointment of senior officers. And I think by far, with the exception of one, two appointments, every single appointment has had cross-party support. Although it may not have been unanimous, there have been both Aspire members and Labour members pretty much on par in supporting the majority of appointments we have made in the last two years. I think members have the right to choose who they appoint and they don't appoint. I don't think it's done as a caucus or political patronage of particular parties. And generally, I've seen a blend of explanations given as to why appointments have been made. So I just want that put down for noting that irrelevant of party politics when appointments have been made, they've, to my acknowledgement, have been made with justification and rigour. And in addition to that, all appointments have gone through rigorous processes of consultants, technical assessments, as well as the appointment subcommittee, as well as guidance from officers, but the decision has been made by that subcommittee. So I just wanted that noted for the record. Councillor Islam, you wanted to come in again? Thank you. So I second what you've said. I agree with you. We've sat on lots of appointment panels together. Majority of the time, there isn't an issue. We look at the candidates and the ones I've sat on at least. I don't sit on all of them. But, however, I really, really urge Councillor Chowdhury, please let me go before you put an official proposal on there. And one of the reasons for that is there's a part of what you said, your first contribution I agreed with, which was the bit about adding an extra Aspire member. I actually felt that was a fair ask. I didn't think there was anything wrong with it. You have more members. It's a fair ask and that I would have been fine with. I had a feeling you then take it further and you did and I wanted to make sure that you understood that when we meet for these panels, no one decides who the chairs are unless you, until you get to, am I correct? until you get to that, meet that committee and you meet and then together you decide who the chair is. Exactly the same way we meet for an appointment panel. Before I go, I know I'm not going to chair an appointment subcommittee. My Labour colleague knows we're not going to be chairing an appointment subcommittee because the numbers are such that we know it's going to be an Aspire person. but that isn't dictated in any of the rules or in any of the asks that says executive is going to chair the appointment subcommittee. However, with the appeals it's a very different ballgame. It isn't an appointment and dictating that it must be an executive member, what is the reason? That still hasn't been explained. If you hadn't said all that and said one extra member, it would very likely always be an Aspire person chairing that panel. I do not understand why you had to do that. Do you want to respond? Absolutely. It's simply because of that reason. The fact that every single time it has been and the reason why I suggested it is because it has been every single time and I think the last however many minutes we've discussed it. I think I also made the point in reference to 1.2c which has been completely missed and it's a point around diversity. We've got female members now. We've got young people. We've got slightly older members and for us to offer members a diverse group of members to the committee I think increasing that number was the reason for suggestion. That statement is very problematic. I will ask Councillor Chowdhury to take that statement back because that is extremely problematic. Just think about what you've just said. if you're saying you have a diverse group sorry what are you trying to say? Please address it through me as the chair rather than that's fine. Alright I think rather than prolong this sort of to and fro what I'm going to suggest is Councillor Chowdhury would you like to formally propose and if there could be a seconder for that? Yes I'd like to formally propose my suggestion. Is there a seconder? I'd like to second Councillor Chowdhury's proposal. Can I get a point of clarification chair please? Democratic services are we allowed to have a roll call so we know how I'm voted for the record? Yep that's fine Joel would you like to come in? Just briefly I've realised that Councillor Islam's question about the unaligned members I'm conscious there have been instances of nominations just not being taken up it's a difficult question because I don't think the committee cannot exclude the unaligned members they have to make provision it's just the way the numbers work and I think if for any given appointment we we sought nominations and didn't receive any for that one appointment subcommittee I think that's the answer to that Our five member committee will still carry on so our group couldn't accommodate the dates so it would still carry on as normal The quorum would be three members so as long as we can meet the quorum it would continue So Joel just to come in previously we have had subcommittees where all the committee members haven't been fully filled up and therefore we've continued I think there was four a four member committee once where we continued with that Okay so we've had a proposer and we've had a seconder just noting items Can you just run through what the proposal is just so I know Okay just for clarity Councillor Chowdhury if you would like to just state your proposal again please Thank you Chair So the proposal is to increase the number of membership to six so that's three aspire two labour one ungrouped and to have the chair of the committee being one of the executives Thank you for clarity Okay so as a proposal has been put forward and seconded we will now vote on it so those in favour of the proposal put forward by Councillor Chowdhury please raise your hands Is there an amendment to the proposal? I'd like to put a proposal that we agree to the membership of that committee so we put three aspire two labour one ungrouped but we don't dictate who the chair is if it should be exec or not let that committee decide who the chair is if that is taken out then I think you're going to be in a place where actually we can agree something If you can give your proposal That's the proposal it's the same as Councillor Chowdhury it just doesn't say who the chair is Would you is there a seconder for that proposal Sorry just to clarify again both recommendations were against the advice of the monitoring officer just to be clear the monitoring officer said advised against moving to six based on the fact that it's an even number and move against the determining who the chair is because you're predetermining something so the monitoring officer when I asked the question I think legal helpfully clarified that both were advised against officers in particular the monitoring officer you put your microphone my understanding was it was the chair that wasn't good practice okay so just for clarification again as people are going around in a circle is this proposal legal or is this proposal illegal madam legal officer again it is not illegal the committee can make these decisions it's not illegal for them to make these decisions so for the record just to confirm it is legal to make this decision by the committee it is legal thank you if you can note that please we're going to now everybody's had an opportunity I need to withdraw my proposal because as per officer's advice my proposal does not add up to an odd number it adds up to an even number therefore I withdraw the proposal and councillor Chowdhury can carry on with his thank you okay so with no other proposals being in place we are now going to vote on the proposal put forward by councillor Chowdhury if individuals would like their names to be recorded on a particular choice of vote then you may indicate to Justina and she will record that yes yes I'm fully aware that the whole thing is also being recorded so that will be a matter of record in any case but for the minutes if one chooses they can indicate that to Justina for that to be recorded within the minutes so now moving back to the proposal put forward by councillor Chowdhury and seconded by councillor Shafi all those in favour of that proposal please raise your hands all those against that proposal please raise your hands just to be make sure the camera is looking at me I put my hand up against that proposal okay you can put your hands down now it's been recorded okay thank you now with that the last item on the agenda is for closing of the meeting so sorry just to declare the outcome of it the proposal put forward by councillor Chowdhury passes so Joel if you can make the relevant amendments to the paper and sort of take it forward for the appointments subcommittee process recommendations to the head of democratic services following consultation with the chair of the committee sorry councillor Ola please don't have thank you okay so now does agree Joe yeah yep thank you okay so now before closing the meeting please note that the council is collecting feedback from members about their experience of speaking in the meetings although we may not agree on some items if you wish please complete a paper copy of the survey which is over there next to Joel or if you want you can complete a survey online there is a QR code to access the link on the table over there near Joe and now I'm going to call this meeting closed the next meeting is due to take place on Tuesday the 6 of May 2025 and I bid everybody a good and happy evening thank you