Overview & Scrutiny Panel - Tuesday, 21st May, 2024 7.00 pm
May 21, 2024 View on council website Watch video of meeting or read trancriptTranscript
(silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) Can we start the meeting please? (silence) Welcome everybody to the meeting, the scrutiny meeting. I'll go through the procedures, the far-aligned procedures. If the far-aligned is activated, please vacate the offices down the main staircase. I will visit the lifts in the foyer. Assemble in Hawley Square on the green. Officers will assist you and advise you when it is deemed safe to return to the chamber. Could everyone present please ensure that their mobile phones are switched off or turned to silent, and that they are not used to make or receive phone calls when the meeting is in progress? Please note that this meeting is being livestreamed for members of the public. The meeting will also be recorded and will subsequently be broadcast on the internet. Does anybody intend to film the meeting? No. (silence) Are there any members who wish to speak under 20.1? No. I have not received any requests for public speaking. There's nobody in the public gallery. First item on the agenda is apologies for absence. I have received apologies from the following members. Councillor Fellows. Councillor Austin substituted by Councillor Garner. Councillor Moore substituted by Councillor Wright. Are there any other apologists? Yes. Councillor Currie. Councillor Currie. Councillor Currie. Are there any declarations of interest? No. Good. Next item is to approve the minutes of the overview and scrutiny panel meeting held on the 16th of April 2024. You should have received a copy in the agenda pack. Can I have a proposal for acceptance of the minutes? Yes. And a seconder? Yes. Do members agree? It's agreed. Next item is the Cabinet Member Presentation by Councillor Keene on the Youth Council and Youth Provision in Thanet. A cool uncounseler Keene to make her presentation. Okay, thank you for inviting me to this meeting. When I got the invite originally, the focus was very much on the Youth Council and the successes of it and what had been achieved through it and where we were going in the future. In this presentation you will see that we talk about a lot of other things like the titles up there other than just the Youth Council. And I think that's quite an important thing when you're looking at youth work because the Youth Council, whereas it's something we're very proud of and we're building up, it's just one way of engaging with young people and it's really important that we use the other things we do to get the fuller picture of what young people want and how we can involve them. So, on this slide you've got the Youth Team projects and you'll see one of the big things there is the knife awareness program. Now, all these slides will be available to you after the meeting and there's a wealth of information on there. So, I mean, I'm sure you'll find it very interesting, but I'm not going to go through the slides, you know, with all the detail tonight. And I'm much more interested in after I've done the presentation, your questions and things you want to know more about. But as I say, knife crime awareness is something that has been a big part of the program because knife crime has been quite a problem in Than it. It is reducing, but it is something that we're quite concerned about. I'll go through the other things on that slide as we work through that. Oh, right, sorry, yes. Using my arrows, okay. So, the knife crime awareness program is delivered in schools. It can also be delivered in other venues or on a one-to-one basis. And it's been delivered in nine different schools and colleges at the moment and is very successful. So, it aims to raise awareness of knife crime and make sure that young people know what is legal to carry, what is not. Also, you're probably aware of probably seeing the knife amnesty bins around the area. And that has been hugely successful in collecting. I don't know how many thousand knives now. It doesn't say on the slide, but it is a huge number. And that slide just gives you an example of what has been found in the amnesty bins. So, it's certainly been a very successful initiative. Oh, over a thousand knives, it says, on the bins. With all the knives that have been collected, something that's going to happen later this year is Kent College are going to use the knives to create a sculpture. This will be a mobile display that can then be taken to other places to, you know, get the message home about knives, but also to have something positive come out of what could be a very negative and dangerous thing. So, it's quite an innovative idea, and we hope that it will be displayed in a local art gallery. That says about the sculpture. So, the next slide is about the Thannet Youth Council, which was established in November 2022, which I expect you all to remember, so the cup, I should say, remembers very well, and there's still your video up online for everyone who wants to see that. But it is something that we are really trying to take forward, because this is the most obvious voice of young people in its engagement with Thannet Council. So, the Youth Council meets monthly, and we try and make it as much as possible, youth-led. So, I mean, Tracy Moon is the officer that has the sort of day-to-day responsibility for the organisation and running of it, but she takes a back seat, and the young people actually chair the meetings, decide the agenda. So, we really are trying to make it youth-led, but we have to go quite slowly. There's a number of things to bear in mind with the Youth Council. Usually the people that are involved with it are the older young people. Anyone from years 7 to 13 can be a member of the Youth Council, but obviously at the beginning of their senior school life, they're not so likely to get involved and engaged in something like this, it's likely to be the older ones. And then, of course, there's a limited number of years before they outgrow the age range for the council. So, it's a constantly moving membership. Also, although we've got over 20 people signed up to it, they don't all come to every meeting, and partly that's because, you know, they've got their school work, they've got their out-of-school lives as well. But also, some people try it once and don't come back. I know Tracy works very hard in keeping the engagement going, contacting young people if they haven't turned up for a number of meetings, if they're still interested. And also, when people first come along, they might, you know, be interested, but then actually making that first move to come along to a sort of quite formal environment. We have the Youth Council meetings either in the chamber or in the Austin Room, and that's to give young people, again, the chance to really appreciate, you know, sort of what happens in a council building. So, I think it's a very genuine experience for young people. But, as I say, it takes time to build up their confidence. And also, we don't want to impose an agenda on them. So, for example, what they have decided is going to be something that they want to work with is community safety, and in particular, safe spaces for young people. But they're also quite interested in safe spaces for everybody, and we've talked a lot about things like, you know, in parks, are they safe? Do they feel safe there? And so, it's something that is an ongoing piece of work. One thing they have achieved, and it might sound quite a little thing, but it was a very interesting process watching them negotiate it, because they've designed their own Than it Use Council logo. And, as I say, that might sound a very simple thing, but they had to learn how to negotiate with each other to agree one sort of end product. The other thing they've talked a lot about is trying to publicise it more and how young people get the information about it. Now, Tracy and her team do a lot of work in schools, as some of the other slides will show, and obviously they always introduce the idea of the Youth Council whenever it's appropriate in that work. But young people do a lot on social media these days, so the young people very much recognised that they needed something, you know, sort of Instagram, social media reach to engage more young people. And also then, it's not just the people that come to the council, it means that it's easy for other young people that might just be interested in what's happening there to get that information to... Oh, my God, one more. So, I don't know if people have heard of park life, been along to park life at all, no? Because, again, this is a multi-agency outdoor event that is held twice a year, aimed at 11 to 25 year olds, and so there's a variety of different schools and activities, and the idea is that young people come along and they can interact with the police, the youth service, they had wild swimming there, the one I went to, all sorts of activities and things for young people. But also, again, the young people from the Youth Council, they have a stall there, so again, they can talk to young people and encourage them to join the Youth Council or find out more about what it does. And there's pictures of the stalls from one of them on a not very sunny day, but you can't guarantee the weather. There's also the Ellington Park Youth Cafe, and in a way that's a similar sort of initiative or it's a multi-agency approach, and so Ellington Park can be a hub for some antisocial behaviour, as most parks can, and so the friends in Park, who are a very active group and other agencies, have provided this safe space for people to hang out, but it also means, as I say, they can link with other agencies, so there's a lot of other avenues of support there, and so that's another initiative, again, that the Youth Council may be involved in by people going along there. There seems to be quite a few slides on Ellington Park, but as I say, you will get all these slides. The ladder of risk is something that is taken into schools when they're making that transition into senior school, and it's a fascinating interactive activity, whereby young people are given cards of what could be risky situations, alcohol, social media, things like that, and they're asked to place them where they think they are on a ladder of risk, and so this opens up conversations about how young people will, you know, what they consider dangerous, but also how they can look after themselves, so it's a tool for sort of learning for them. And I don't know, well, I know a couple of you went to the pickleball opening just the other day, but that's been something that this is all about engaging young people in activity in things like sports, but also, you know, getting them to do something sort of constructive and productive to discourage antisocial behaviour. Also, the more our parks and open spaces are used for activities, the safer they are for everyone, and the less likely antisocial behaviour is to happen. So, safety and action is an awareness week, another multi-agency event, and I think that's the thing with all these things. It's really important to try and get young people in touch with all the different agencies, both that can support them, but also so they see them as a positive interaction and not distant from them as young people, and obviously bullying is something that a lot of young people experience and has obviously very negative effects, and so it's about looking at things like that and how young people can keep themselves safe. The pickleball courts are now open in broad stairs and it's great fun, so there's going to be sort of more courses or more sessions in the summer. The courts are free, they're open all the time, except they probably have to shut in the evening to keep them from vandalism and that, but it is a free activity and there are going to be sessions, obviously you will hear more about them for all age groups, but young people as well. And there they are. Panic Games, obviously we've got the Olympics, and this is our own Olympics. So again, it's clubs coming together, activities for all age groups, there's going to be a young people's events in July, and then adult events in August, and then a closing ceremony at the end of the adults week. And so it's again looking at young, well, all ages, but young people's activities and how they can engage with them and you know how they can keep safe. Obviously it's not just the Senate District Council that provides activities for young people. We've got the Pi Factory, which I expect most people know about. Obviously there are funding issues around that, but sessions like this do a lot of good for young people, and so it is about making sure young people know about them and access them and looking as time goes forward as to how we can support them when funding can become difficult. We've also got obviously Kent County Council are responsible for some youth services, and then we've got things like porch light and changing minds and well a whole wealth of other organisations that work across the District for young people. So in looking for going forward, park life continues to grow and develop a new agency's join, so that's something that is a growing model and a good way of engaging young people and getting the information to them. The Senate Youth Council is looking for more members. One of the questions you asked for this session was about how many people go, how do they get to know about the Council. At the moment on most meetings, we probably have about half a dozen young people coming, so it's a fairly small number even of the 20 that are current members. But we are looking how we can grow that. One of the things that we are doing, I think, is on the next size. No, come on. Where's that? Is that the next one? No, first one, sorry. Oh yes, growing numbers, yeah. But we're looking at an event, a schools forum in Broadstairs which Councillor Bright has been instrumental in because most schools have a school council, so it's a similar sort of model. It's about looking at whether any of the people from the school council would be interested in joining the youth service, but also how we can meet up the people that are already on the school councils and what they want to achieve and their wishes and goals and that with the youth council. So getting the crossover of ideas and maybe ideas for the youth council will be involved as well as possibly new members. In terms of members, as I say, it's year seven to thirteen and so anyone can join from any school. And if they're interested, they just need to contact Tracy Moon and she can, or her team, and she can give them all the information. One of the things that you as Councillors could do is make sure that young people in your area know about it. So if you have ways like through your newsletters or if you have Facebook pages of signposting it, that would be very helpful. I think we've probably covered most of these things. Yes, there you are. And so we've come to any questions. Sorry, because I'd kind of talked through the slides, I'd kind of covered the information I wanted to from those slides, but you will all get the slides as a pack. So you'll get all the information that's on them. But as I say, I think more importantly, it's what questions you want to ask me. I have a simple one to start with. What's the size of the youth team that you mentioned at start? I think I'm going to turn it over to Penny. We don't have a youth team, it's the community team. So this is only a very small part of their work and there is four of them, five of them plus the manager. I worked with Tracy when I was working for Charlton with young people and it's in safe hands. She's the right person for the job totally and utterly. And obviously I come from a 26 year teaching background and I've got a huge passion for young people and actually feel that they need to be front and centre a lot more than they actually are. Have you thought of allocating or have we thought of allocating the young people a small budget so that they can actually learn, I've got three or four questions, they can actually learn to lead on a project to manage the project from start to finish with a small financial. Yeah, they have a small budget. At the moment it's only a thousand pounds but for exactly that reason and they are currently looking at what project they want to do to use that money. So it will be teaching them project management skills as well. My next question is being that I'm 62 next birthday. I think there's less mileage in survey in me as a resident and more mileage in actually survey in young people. Have we ever considered survey in young people in a similar way to which we do adults about what they think about the services we provide and what they'd like to see in their communities. I think this could be simply done by accessing the young people through schools and youth clubs but it would certainly be interesting to see whether their views and wishes and desires for the community actually such as people like me who at the other end really. Yeah, strangely enough the young people have actually surveyed young people. Now, and again this is where I say we have to take it quite slowly with them because I'm sure there's much more information that we would like to gather about what their issues are and what they would like to see. And I particularly am interested in your idea about, you know, them actually commenting on council services per se. But what they did do is, and you know, sort of have done like, you know, the community events that they've been at and also within their schools and that is to gather young people's views on what their main issues are. And that's how they came up with the priority of safety. That was the thing that kept coming up with young people. Funding is a big issue for youth services and obviously most of that funding comes via KCC. I believe we should be working more collaboratively across the three levels of governance, town, district and county to ensure maximum benefits to each of our funding pots. But I'm particularly interested in the leveling up money and the new 20 million that we have coming into Ramsgate. And I'd welcome, again, making sure young people's, young people's center and front with some of that funding that particularly is coming into Ramsgate. And I'd certainly like to see some of that money allocated to activities and services. That was a question. My question is, will the Council, will we consider allocating money, particularly to support young people in our communities, particularly leveling up money and the new 20 million coming into Ramsgate? My answer is, I hope so. I mean, obviously all this funding has, you know, a lot of conditions tied to it and so we would need to look at what the capacity is for focusing on young people like that. Some of the projects, I mean, like, for example, the Margate Skate Park, are already focused on young people. But I agree with you, it would be good to see more focus on it, to see how all the projects we're doing could involve or be of benefit to young people. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, and thanks for the presentation. As far as I'm aware, the Police and Crime Commissioner allocates about 30K to Senate District Council. Is there an opportunity here talking about crime? You know, I think the first thing you said was that knife amnesty. To give our young people a bit of freedom with that money, to try and tackle crime head-on. Because sometimes we sit here with adults and think the best way, but actually sometimes they're a bit more creative. So I just wanted to sort of tap into that money. They don't actually give us the money in terms of we're allowed it and we can spend what we like. We have to put together project plans beforehand, which is what some of these projects have come out of that money. And they talk to the Youth Council about things like that. So the intelligence we get back is fed into that. But we could talk to them about whether there's anything extra they could give to Youth Council. So far we haven't been successful, but there is always that option. Unfortunately, we used to get a pot of money that we could spend on whatever we liked within the element. Now we have to have sort of funding and ideas up front of which they have to agree. So it's not quite as simple as it used to be unfortunately. Sorry, on that note, I'd just like to add that the young people do go along to the IAG meetings and do speak out. So although they haven't got any money from it yet, I mean they are involved in talking about young people's safety in that kind of form. And then the other question is how involved are they in actual leveling up? Ideas, things like the skate park and things like that, but anybody is designed for their generation. Thanks. So they have been involved. Louise brings things to the Youth Council and they discuss it was on one of the slides that unfortunately was spelled incorrectly. I did notice afterwards. It's a regeneration as opposed to a regeneration team. Yeah, they do intend and talk about that sort of stuff. So they are involved in it and we are encouraging any decisions that we make to try and incorporate the Youth Council if it fits within the timelines for some of the things that we do. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Winding back to the knife sculptures and the knife crime. Is there anywhere inside it that we've got bleed packs? Yes, there are. So they were supplied by the Violence Reduction Unit from Kent Police and they are located in police vehicles and they have varying size ones and at some strategic locations, which off the top of my head I can't remember, but I will find out about it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor CUM for the presentation as well. You know that Youth Engagement is an absolute priority for me. And I'm quite interested in the Ellington Park Youth Cafe. Is that actually a TDC initiative or is it run by volunteers? If it is a TDC initiative, are there any plans to roll that out in other towns? Thank you. So it is run by the volunteers, obviously with us and our support and Kent Police is on a few other peoples. It's a trial for May and June this year. So if it is successful and it's something we can carry on forward, then yes, absolutely it would be something we could look to roll out in other places if they have a similar set up with a safe place. So it's got the cafe there so people can attend specifically the cafe location. But it's a work in progress on that one. That's really good news, thank you. So I'm sure we'd like to do something in Brawl's Dares with the little music room there in Piedmont Park, I think that would be a perfect place for a youth cafe. And also just something that wasn't mentioned here, but I think it was a real success. It was at the Climate Change CAG, we had representatives from Charles Dickens and St George's who were engaged with regarding the cycle and walking network Sustrans. And that was brilliant and I would really welcome more of that. So I think if we could involve kids and bring them into council meetings, it was so successful, they had so much to say. So I definitely would like to see more of that, thank you. So that's completely outside of this particular area. It does happen to sit in my area so I do know about it. And it was specific around that particular project, which is why Morgan was quite keen to bring them in because it has a massive impact and we had already, or Sustrans, had already spoken to them about how it would work for them and how to make their journeys to school easier and safer. So yeah, that's on a separate piece of work, because it's not really the community team leading on it. And I think there is something that on a next team have considered and always are looking for youth voices around things that we do. So I think there is, as and when we can bring them in, we do, I think is probably the answer to that question. Coming on that, because they did get invited to the plastic-free fannet working group as well. And I think that's the thing, it's also for councillors, because of course they can get involved on an area town level as well. It doesn't have to be just fannet council as a whole. So if there are initiatives going on in your locality that you would like the voice of young people for, then again, if you talk to Tracy, we can ask if there are volunteers to do that. And for all the things that have been suggested to them so far, they've always responded very positively. And there has been people willing to be the representative. And they've also worked with Kent County Council, Youth Council. So they're very keen to look for opportunities, even though they're quite a small group. They are really keen on doing the role to the best of their ability. Thank you, there's no question, it's just a comment if I make sure. Just to say thank you for this presentation. It's really encouraging to see how everything is still progressing. It's really lovely to see the Youth Councils in a safe pair of hands as well, and really progressing well. And I think this is one area of the council that we don't shout loud enough about. You know, the work that goes on is massive and has a very big impact on a lot of people's lives, especially obviously young people. And I do think we need to make sure that we're shouting a little bit louder about the fantastic work that's going on by the Stanley Community Safety team as well. Thank you, Chair. Could I ask, is it possible to share more of what the Youth Council are talking about with councillors? Oh, yes. Because A, councillors could pass it on to youth in their boards, but B, I'm sure most councillors would really like to know. We can put it in the loop. We can use methods like that to make sure that everyone is aware of what they're doing. It's a good idea. I think everyone will take it forward. I mean, I don't want to put specifics on it because I think it needs to be led from the children. Maybe I'm just sowing some seeds. By the looks of it, it's progressing well and, you know, everybody involved should be congratulating themselves. Do you know, as I say, sort of Penny, as leading it, is absolutely passionate about it and young people. So she's doing brilliant work. Sorry, Tracy. Tracy. As well as Penny. Yeah, you didn't know. You didn't work. Tracy's doing that. Can we please note the report and thank both of you for your presentation? Thank you. Do we have to vote on that? We don't have to vote on note in the report. Next item is item five. The Port of Ramsgate maintenance dredging. I'll call on Mike to make a presentation. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. So this report describes the proposed plan for maintenance dredging at the Port of Ramsgate for this financial year. The dredging plan will require a key decision to undertake a single dredging campaign with an estimated value of £362,000. This proposal will be recommended to cabinet on the 30th of May, and if approved, the work will be undertaken via an existing four plus one year maintenance dredging term contract that was awarded to the Marine contractor Vannord in 2021. The total value of the 2024/25 dredging plan is £477,000, and the budget value this year is £325,000. So it will therefore also be recommended on the 30th of May that cabinet approves a one-off general fund revenue budget to fund the estimated £152,000 shortfall. The proposed dredging is via a method known as hydro-dynamic dredging, which mobilises deposited sediments back into the water column. The suspended sediment then leaves the harbour on a falling tide. Hydro-dynamic dredging methods have been used at Ramsgate for approximately 12 years and have proven to be more financially efficient than mechanical methods, such as grab dredging. Previous hydro-dynamic dredging campaigns at Ramsgate have delivered present-day value productivity rates of about £2 per metre cube of sediment removed, and by comparison, mechanical dredging will cost more and probably in the region of £3.50 per metre cube of sediment. The dredging plan this year will focus on the port turning circle, the port entrance, the harbour entrance and the approach to Berth 4.5. The council has a contractual obligation to provide vessels with access to Berth 4.5 for the purpose of discharging car goes to the Brett aggregate site. The volume of sediment to be removed during this dredging campaign is approximately 124,000 cubic metres, to which for context is roughly the same in volume as the water held in 50 Olympic-sized swimming pools. It's important that dredging at the port is undertaken within the next one to two months to maintain an acceptable depth of water in the port at all states of tide. It also makes sense to plan this work over the summer to avoid the increased bad weather risk associated with winter dredging. In order to secure the dredger in June, an order has been placed for a smaller 75,000 cubic metre dredging campaign at an estimated cost of £228,000. This will improve vessel access, but without the more substantial dredging campaign that we're discussing here, there is a greater chance that we would need to undertake further work later in the financial year. The approval of the proposed key decision will increase the quantity of dredging undertaken, allowing for a greater depth to be achieved across the entire area to be dredged. Environmental monitoring will be undertaken alongside the dredging operation to mitigate the risk of adverse effects on nearby receptors. This is important as the port is in close proximity to multiple designated sites that are rich in biodiversity. The dredging planned for the port in June will take two to three weeks to complete. Engagement will take place with stakeholders at the port and the harbour, and updates will be provided as required via usual communication channels, which includes our Notice to Mariners service. The plan for this year can be found at Appendix A of the report. Thank you. Thank you. Any questions, Councillors? Thank you. I'd like to ask questions. Thank you. Can I ask a question, but then also potentially come in later on a debate with the discussion? Thank you. Thank you for the report. I wondered if you could just give a bit more information about some of the legal impacts of not doing it. In the report it talks about that we might be breaching the open port duty, potentially opening ourselves up for legal claims from vessels damaged, and there could be an impact on future revenue. Can you just give a bit more detail on that, please? Yes, certainly. So, then at District Council is a statutory harbour authority. So there is an Act, the 1934 Corporation Act of Ramsgate, which makes us a statutory harbour authority. And that means that we have duties under that, under the harbour act and that legislation, to conserve or maintain the port estate, and that includes dredging. So there is an obligation to dredge to allow vessel access. If we don't do that, then there's obviously a safety risk for vessels navigating in the port because they may run a ground to cause damage or, you know, and safety, you know, obviously risk of safety to people on those vessels. And also, you know, it would impede trade. And because there's an Act saying that as a statutory harbour authority, we're an open port, we must remain open and the births be accessible. Thank you very much for the report. Can I just ask about the overspend, because it looks like the budget, forgive me if I paraphrase, it looks like the budget's been reduced here on here, which is why we're now in overspend at the point where we actually need to do the work. How have we, did we arrive in that place? Was that something that was planned that we would reduce in knowing that when we actually need to do the work, there would be an overspend and therefore the contingency would cover it? So, yeah, the budget has reduced over years, so the report talks about what the value of the budget in 2013 when we last had a scheduled cross-channel service, and it's gradually reduced over time to a point where the budget wasn't sufficient to be able to undertake maintenance dredging. And in the budget this year, there's an extra 180,000 that's been put into the revenue budget for dredging in response to that being raised through the Council's Star Chamber process last year where we're looking at budget growth items. So, I think it's recognized that the reductions in the dredging budget available, the maintenance dredging budget available meant that there was too little money in the budget to be able to sustain or maintain the dredged depth, and that's why that money was put back in. We do what's called hydrographic monitoring, so we monitor the dredged depth three times a year, and that monitoring has shown that there was quite a lot of accretions, so quite a lot of material came in over the winter, we were already at a level where we needed to do dredging, but more material was coming over the winter, and that has led to this situation where when we do the volumetric calculation on how much dredging is required to get to a particular target depth, it has meant that we need to spend more than the budget that's available, and that's what's led to that proposal to increase the budget by £152,000 to enable us to dredge to a level that continues to comply with our duty. May I just ask a follow-up question? Is there some thought or some investigation into whether the new method of dredging, as opposed to grab dredging, might be responsible for the extra need, because if I understand correctly it disperses sediment, which could potentially come back, which looks like it's been doing over the last 12 years as opposed to grab dredging, which would actually displace it altogether, so with regard to that, has there been some evidence or audit into that being the more cost, it's obviously been more cost effective year on year, but over time has such been looked into whether it's been more cost effective over time to do that method as opposed to the other? No, not as such. So any port or harbour interrupts the currents and the long-shore drift process and material that's in the water column and suspended all the time that water is passing on the coast, as soon as that goes into a port, the conditions by which it stays suspended disappear because the water goes into a port and it slows down and then that material falls out of suspension. What water injection dredging or hydrodynamic dredging does is it puts that material back into what's called a density cloud, so it's not just sort of agitating it and putting it all over the place in the water, it's creating a dense cloud of material near the bed still, which on a falling tide, and it's important, it's only done on a falling tide, then leaves the harbour via gravity because it's heavier than the water around it. As soon as it gets out into the current, it then is taken with the current back on the path that it would have taken had the port not been there. So the material that leaves the harbour isn't necessarily the material that's coming back in, there is a complex offshore system of sand and sediment that travels along the shore, it feeds offshore sand banks like the Good Winds, and it travels quite a long distance. So there's a possibility that some of the material, some of the particles that have left will come back again, but it is a long, short drift process and the material passing by, that is effectively captured by the ports because it is there, and most ports have some sort of dredging requirement. If you can have a port that doesn't require dredging, that's quite an unusual thing. Go on to the Davis. Thank you, Chair. I think something comes out to me from what's just been discussed about the fact that the reason we've got to spend this amount of money now, as Councilor Faruki rightly drew out, you haven't spent it when we perhaps needed to. So that effectively means that the losses that we've already experienced and seen quoted for the port and harbour are actually worse than we've known. That's the effective outcome of this, because now we're having to buy our money from other budgets to cover what wasn't done in the past. The first question that really I'd like to know is, and obviously we want the best possible facilities for vessels. However, it's substantially more expensive to dredge to four metres against chart dates into three and a half. In fact, to the tune of about 50,000 people. My question is, where it clearly states that the idea of dredging the approach to birth, four and five is to extend the landing window, that's effectively for one operator, and Brett's, because nobody else uses those births. And in fact, Brett's haven't been using them because they haven't put the super structure on there. Do we really need to spend that money, or would it be better perhaps? I understand the benefit of going for the bigger project all in one hit, but at the moment there wouldn't be really any gain, and that's just dredging it for it to seal top again. Can you answer that, or is that beyond your... Yeah, thank you, Councillor, for the question. I think the sort of concise answer is, yes, we do need to do that. We have a contractual obligation to do that because of the contract with the leasing facilities agreement with Brett aggregates, and as an open port, we have an obligation to do so as well. So, no, there isn't an option not to dredge. No, no, but what percentage of the overall budget here is actually for that approach to birth form, rather than maintaining access, so the wind farms can get in and out. So, we're dredging to that depth to allow, I mean, you always need to dredge for the largest vessels that the port is accommodating, and you're right, those largest vessels are vessels that go into birth 4-5 at the moment. It is being used because the vessel, the DC-Valandra, is coming in, and obviously the birth, when it's operational with the conveyor on it, I mean, there'll be coasters coming into that birth as well. The dredging is not only for, you know, for Brett aggregates and for the vessels that visit birth 4-5. The dredging is at the port entrance where there's a sandbar that's gradually moving across the port entrance, so we need to remove that. It's at the harbour entrance, so where there's sand around the port control area between the east and west pier, and it's in the turning circle which benefits any vessel that's entering the port area, because it's about maintaining, you know, a much longer and better tidal window in the main port turning circle area for all vessels. Okay, thanks. Thank you. Thank you for your report. I sort of welcome this dredging as I suspect quite a number of boat owners and big, larger vessel owners welcome. I get the, I understand the now we've got an overspend that we need to address, and perhaps with hindsight, we should have allocated some money coming forward to address this, but we haven't, and it needs to be done. I have got a number of questions, so I take them one at a time, Mike. I've done the swim from Ramsgate to Broadstairs on that current. It's really easy. And I crude on a yacht, so I know there is a strip of water just outside the harbour entrance that either goes that way or that way, depending on whether the tides rise in or fall in, and it's a very tricky piece of water. So I'm making the assumption that on a falling tide, that it is that that will be heading towards Sandwich Bay rather than Broadstairs. So most of the sediment will head towards Sandwich, am I thinking, and the pegwell bay? If I answer that one first. No, actually, when the, as the on a falling tide, the particles travel sort of in roughly in a northeasterly direction. So they don't go round to pegwell bay. That environment, when monitoring I spoke about, one of the elements of that is transect monitoring on the chalk reef at pegwell. What we need to make sure, obviously, is that that sediment doesn't co-op come out and do what you described and go round onto the chalk reef and smother the muscle beds and shellfish beds. So during that dredging there will be regular daily monitoring to make sure that that's not happening. And we know from experience that the time to stop in the tidal cycle, the time to stop hydrogen dynamic dredging to avoid that. So it's very important that we stick to a six-hour window of dredging on each tide cycle so that it's only when those particles will be travelling away and out rather than round the corner and landing on the shore. Thank you. Also, the harbour entrance is a big problem. There was footage last week of a yacht getting stuck coming in. I think it was a fairly low tide and they just got trapped and had to wait for the tide to rise. So there is a particular problem below the east pier, below the port office of the brassery, the harbour brassery, where a beach is as developed. So I'm not quite certain how this blow system, if you like, would address that because we've always had the grab bucket. Will this system address that particular problem? Yes. So I keep referring to hydrodynamic dredging and that's because there's more than one method and the vessel that van order bringing to Ramsgate for this campaign is capable of what's called water injection dredging, which we use for the majority of the sediment to be removed, which is a very fine silt. So water injection dredging is high volume but low pressure. So it lifts the silt and then it falls under gravity as this density cloud. The alternative method of hydrodynamic dredging is something called mass flow, which is high volume high pressure, where instead of having lots and lots of nozzles underneath the dredger that gradually agitates and suspends the sediment, it effectively pushes larger coarser materials such as sand and it's effectively sweeping it. And that is the method that will be used around the port entrance and the harbour entrance to push the sand back out into the flow. And again, that sand, although it's coarser, it is also readily mobilised once we get out into those currents that we know exist outside the port entrance. And that's very clearly evidenced by the fact that the port is served by an approach channel and that approach channel was dredged in 1980. And we monitor it every year as we're required to do but we've never had to re dredge that. And the reason for that is because the conditions that exist there mean that sand can't drop out a suspension into that area. So we know that when we dredge through hydrodynamic dredging and push sand into that area, it will be taken away by natural currents as if the port weren't there, basically. Sorry, there's more ones. I know there's a big problem in a harbour because a lot of boat owners approach me directly and the level of sediment is raising and it's meeting the bottom of their boats. Have we any plans to address that particular issue? So there isn't anything under this dredging plan. So we have done, in last financial year, we did some targeted grab dredging in the inner marina. So I think we were talking about the locked marina we were talking about. There aren't any plans in this plan, in this financial year. But again, it's something through our hydrographic surveys that we'll monitor and put that into the plan when we next need to. That will be grab dredging. We can't use water injection dredging in the marina because you'll just basically push it into the outer marina and then have to move it again. I'll ask questions. Do you feel that once we've got this period of dredging done, that there's a good plan going forward and that we're never going to have a period of no dredging which then creates the problem we've got now? No, I think by its nature, we do maintenance dredging every year. We're doing more this year because of the levels that have been deposited over a quite a long period of time. But next year, we'll need to do more dredging. There's no doubt about that. Thank you. I've got a couple then I'll come back to you. Does any of this sand and silt end up on Ramsgate main sands? Probably not. Some of the sand may do. In fact, if we dredge using a grab dredging method, there is a licensed disposal site for clean sand just off Ramsgate main beach. So if we used grab dredging and used that site, it would almost certainly come back onto Ramsgate beach. But this is the same material that is already on the beach. We're not putting anything there that isn't in the natural system already. But through this method and this technique, it probably won't come back round onto the beach. It will probably go further away. Contamination. On the beach. I mean, how clean is it? So, generally speaking, this is sediment that exists outside the harbor as well. So this isn't a foreign material that's put there and then taken out of the harbor. As part of the marine licensing requirements, generally, not for this water injection dredging, but generally we have a dredging license which requires sampling. So that sampling, we take samples and send that off to laboratory where it's tested for various contaminants, heavy metals, things like that. So we have a pretty good idea of what's in the material. But generally speaking, this is material that's coming through the port entrance and fallen out of suspension. And particularly where we're taking the top layers off, what we're talking about here, it hasn't fallen out suspension very long ago, so it's relatively clean material really. I've found and questioned, perhaps a bit naive. Longer term, is it possible to reduce the ingress of sand or silt into the... A very difficult to engineer a harbor where you don't need to do any dredging. Yeah, it's not easy to stop it coming in. It's very variable, so when we have sustained northeasterly storms, and we've had a few of those over the winter, we get more material coming in. If we go back to when there was last scheduled cross-channel service, the natural movement of large vessels tends to limit the amount that falls out of suspension. So although it comes in, those vessels moving around help to maintain it in suspension and it goes out with the falling tide, so you actually end up with less material staying when you've got lots of vessel movements. But in terms of actually stopping it coming in, no, that's not really a method of doing that at Ramsgate. Historically, of course, the inner marina at Ramsgate was... the cross wall in the inner marina was designed to flush the harbor of silt. That was what it was there for. There were sluices that flushed it out, so there was an old method of doing it without dredging. But that's not very compatible with having a marina in there. Thanks, Chair. Councillor DAVIS, in one of his questions, mentioned that the port is losing money. I think we had a question on this at GNA, and I think this last financial year, it didn't lose money. He just clarified for somebody relatively new to the council what the position of the port is, and if those losses are real losses or the result of depreciation and mortisation. Yes, so every year we publish annual accounts on the port and the harbor. If we take the port position without the depreciation element, then it's close to breakeven or breakeven. It certainly has been in recent years, or it makes us a relatively small loss. If you include the depreciation part, which is not something that has an impact on taxpayers, it's not a direct revenue loss, but if you include that, then the reported loss is much, much higher. So somewhere like a million pounds more on that sort of value. Chair, have I made just a follow-up question. Can you explain to me what the corporate contingency budget is that this is coming from? I'm assuming it's a reserve, and if that budget is reduced this year, presumably we need to be replenished from revenue in the next budget, and again, this may be a question for financing, I don't know. But when they were setting that reserve, would they have assumed potential costs related to doing this dredging so that the funds going back from a revenue budget will be less than the original amount, because this money has now been spent. This is the point where I hope that there will be a finance going next to me. But it is a reserve, so yes, the corporate contingency is a reserve. It is there to cover such eventualities as this. As for the position of it next year and assumptions, I think I might have to come back to you on that after consulting with the head of finance. That would be helpful. And just the rationale behind that is just understanding how we factor in reserves at the point. Is it just an amount of money we put there as a rainy day fund? Or are we building it around scenarios? And if that scenario then comes that money spent, do we then have two or three years to put that money back? Because it's unlikely you would have the same risk or scenario happen in multiple years. So I'd appreciate if you could follow up on that. Thank you. Do members have any recommendations to forward to Cabinet? No? Thank you very much for your... Item 6, which I'm not quite sure what the title is. It's approval for various policies for the tenant and leaseholder services. And it's been presented by Celia Sullivan. Thank you. So back in October 2020, the tenant and leaseholder services transitioned from East Kent housing. And at that point in time we adopted new landlord compliance policies. They are basically for our tenant's health and safety. They were drafted for us by consultant and they were very robust due to the position we were in in terms of being under notice by the regulator for social housing at the time. Policies need to be reviewed on a regular basis to ensure they're still working in the way they're intended and are kept up to date with current legislation or regulations. The policies I've bought for review today are gas safety, electrical safety, passenger lifts, water hygiene and asbestos. The fire safety policy was reviewed and adopted in June 23 following the introduction of the Building Safety Act 2022 and the strengthening of the fire safety regulations. The changes made to the policies are removal of repetition and thus shorting them considerably. Ensuring the policies reflect current legislation, regulation and best practice, the removal of references to other council departments and a complete review of the reporting regime. So we provide reports to enable us to monitor our programs, take appropriate actions when necessary and to give assurance. At the point of transition it was important that we had robust reporting with early warning systems in place. We've looked to reduce the reporting through these new policies as the compliance work streams are now operating as business as usual rather than in recovery and that meets much of the reporting now as redundant. We can still provide assurance with a high-level overview of our compliance position with commentary that would explain any fluctuations in the statistics and any cause for concern is escalated immediately and dealt with at the time and this would be reflected through the performance reports with an explanation in the commentary. Are there any questions? I'm just going to ask, can you clarify how often these policies are reviewed and updated? I know that it mentions in the report that they were written in 2020 and that one of them due to legislation changes was updated last year but how often as a normal sort of cycle are they being reviewed and updated? We review our policies every two to three years and if there is known changes in legislation we would review and rewrite and bring to the table at that point in time. I noticed that the Senate tenants and leaseholders group have been consulted over these. Did they make any comments? No. Any other questions? Can this go big? I was just going to ask as a follow-up, would it not be normal for a policy to be updated annually and for any learnings from there or legislation change to be adopted? Two to three years feels quite a long time, particularly with some of these areas you're talking about. For example, water safety, fire safety, these things are changing quite often. In a business setting, for example, these policies as a rule of thumb would be reviewed quarterly and updated by management annually so I'm just wondering why the disparity with the Council. That is what we have done since we've come back in-house for all of our policies is to review them every two to three years. We do have a regular review of our service which includes our policies. If, during one of the reviews, we did find that a policy wasn't working for us or through a complaint, there is a lesson to learn. That means there's a policy change or, of course, regulation or legislation needs a change. Then we would pull it out of its usual cycle and carry out a review of that policy at that time. But it's not currently the practice in my department to do that. So just to follow up from that, then under 3.4 in the report, it says that at the time of transition, the Council wants to notice from the regulator for social housing due to failure. Can you give a bit more detail on that? Again, for somebody relatively new to the Council, just the background to that comment. I didn't understand the context of that. So I'll start off and then if I miss anything, Sally can cover that as well. So for those of you that weren't around in 2020, one of the most significant reasons why the decision was taken to disband East Kent Housing and bring the service back in-house was in relation to compliance. And that wasn't just the Senate Council, but it was the other three councils that were involved in East Kent Housing as well. And collectively, we all took the decision pretty much at the same time that that arrangement wasn't working for our residents, and particularly in relation to tenant health and safety and statutory compliance. Probably the thing that most highlighted it for everybody was failures in gas safety and what I could only describe as misinformation coming from East Kent Housing about the number of outstanding gas safety certificates across our housing stock and across the housing stock of the other three councils, which is why that decision was taken. But at the same time, the Council also, and this is obviously all documented in the reports that came forward at the time, but at the same time, the Council took the decision to self-refer to the regulator on the basis that we weren't meeting the required standards set out the regulations for regulated social landlords. And we went through, after bringing the service back in-house, actually Sally and I sat through, I think, monthly meetings with the regulator to track our progress on compliance. And part of that was the first iteration of these policies back in 2020. And I'm pleased to be able to say that we worked through that process to the satisfaction of the regulator and we put all the policies in place and we've made significant progress on statutory compliance across the housing stock and, obviously, the regulator removed the regulation notice on the council. So, some, well, I think in 2022, either early 2022 or late 21. So, and since that time, we've been running the compliance service pretty much as a business as usual arrangement. There's always things to do in compliance. It's just the way these things are for every sex landlord. There's always something to do in compliance. There's always new risk assessments and risk assessments almost always have some actions attached to them. But what we can say with confidence now, which we couldn't say in 2020, is that we do have those risk assessments in place. We know what actions are flowing from those risk assessments and we know which actions have been delivered and which ones are still to be done. And we report on those regularly and you see those reports here on a quarterly basis. So, you know, there's quite, there's obviously there's a really long back story to the compliance picture. But I think we can say with confidence that we are in a pretty good place now in terms of our housing, statutory compliance position. Thank you. Are there any other questions? Yep. I'd just like to make a comment. Obviously, I was. No question. You've got a question. It's sort of a question, but I'd just like to thank the housing team because I was here. So, it's maybe it's giving Councillor SCOBY a bit more information and I can say my residents were wholly unhappy with East Kent housing as were members because we weren't listened to and they weren't listened to. So, I'd just like to thank the housing department for getting the ship back on a even kill and heading in the right direction. A great deal of work has been undertaken and I get fewer referrals from my residents as a consequence because they're happier. And there's greater engagement between TDC staff and actually residents. So, I think he'd deserve a pat on the back. Thank you, Councillor WING. I'm sure we all feel that way. Thank you. Next item is item 7 to establish the overview and scrutiny panel work program for 2024-25. Are there any updates from the external grant funding review working party? Unfortunately, Councillor LEADING is not here. Yes, I believe we've just established out of date for our second meeting. Following the scoping meeting, I'll just check what it is on the calendar there and there's Charles who's got it done. 6th, 6th of June. So, there'll be a second meeting then where we'll be addressing the items that were identified in the scoping. I hope that's okay with everybody updated on Trisha's behalf. Councillor Edwards and Councillor SCOBY would like to take part in the grant funding review project. Just to panel agree that we co-op to Councillor Edwards and Councillor WILSCOBY. It's just that it shouldn't be co-op. It should just be added as members of the group. That's just to make it absolutely clear. Councillor WILSCOBY and Councillor Edwards. And also that Councillor MANNERS was previously added to it as a co-op to you, so it's best if we just make him a member in the same way that we're adding those two Councillors there. Just for my understanding for future working parties, would you be able to clarify how the chair is chosen? At the last meeting Councillor Fellow's announced that Councillor Austin would be chairing it. My understanding is that working parties or chairs of any committees are chosen at their first meeting. And secondly, how does the membership of working parties be set? Obviously there isn't political balance, but I'm assuming it's just set by the committee. I wasn't really clear on that. And then is there any limit on the number of working parties that are allowed at one time? I think at the moment the convention has been to have one at a time and then wait for that one to finish and start, is that correct? I think the limit is dependent on the coverage that the Democratic Services team can handle. Do you want me to come back on this? Yeah, OK. Yeah, so trying to make... yes, it is the number of working parties is determined by the resource that the Dem Services team has. Currently that is more. I'm not saying that there will be more. I have no indication there will be more resource to the team, but if there was more resource to the team, then obviously we'd be able to do more sort of support for meetings. With regards to the membership, there is, as you say, there is no political balance on a scrutiny review working party. Usually we ask for volunteers at the meeting where the review party is set up. Usually we would say that it's taken from the membership of the panel. First, but if there aren't enough people, then we could ask people outside of the panel and they can join in, provided, obviously, they're not cabinet members because they are prohibited from doing so. And then the chairmanship of the working party generally can be done either way. So it could be that it sort of mutually agreed at the first meeting where we set it up. But it could also, if it wanted to be, if they couldn't decide, or we weren't overly fast for one of a bit of phrase about who the chair was, then we could ask that that's be added to the first meeting of the working party. But I think it's something that both Charles and I discussed and it's something we've discussed with others. I included the mentioned team is that I think, as I say, this, and this is absolutely in no way a criticism of the way that this working group has been created or all is started. But I think it would be just helpful for everybody involved and helpful for the panel to just sort of firm up the way that we create scrutiny working parties going forward. So I think in future, if there is a working party that's suggested and we agree that we should have a working party, then this meeting, say for example, this is the first meeting of which we decide to do that, which is set up a rough idea of what that panel is going to do and who the membership are. That then would be referred to the working party, the working party would have a meeting that would solely just concentrate on their terms of reference. They would agree the terms of reference. As we've seen from this working party, terms of reference have slightly altered from what was originally planned. That's totally okay. That's not an issue. But if it is, then if it is wanting to change, then it should be the panel that decides that it changes, not the working party. So then we would bring that terms of reference back to this party as to this panel, sorry. And then we would have a last opportunity for anybody else to then say, well, yeah, I don't agree with that. You've changed the terms of reference to that so much that actually, I've been voted for that. I wanted something else as the next priority working review. We can sort out the membership. And then from that point onwards, that is the terms of reference of the party. That is the membership of that working party. It doesn't change unless this panel says it should change. I think that would be the process moving forwards. We sort of do that, but sort of unofficially at the moment. And I think that's just something that we need to tighten up on. Yeah, I agree. Could you bring that protocol to the next meeting for approval? Absolutely. Yeah, we can do that and step up. And just on that, because coming new to Opie and Scootie and trying to understand where we're working on, having listened to the last two meetings, I wasn't clear what this working party was working on now. You know, Councilor Popers has helped to sort of give that information as to what the terms of reference are. But if you're saying that the terms of reference that was informally set down at a meeting has changed and that it should be the main panel that agrees that there's nothing in the agenda about that. So just... I don't understand this. I think that protocol would be very useful, but just to say, as a new member, could try to understand what's going on, it feels very, very complicated. I think that's why we want to bring the protocol back to the next meeting, definitely. Could I add, as well, that we had agreed that members of the working party would bring in the fresh terms of reference, draft terms of reference to this panel and seek the approval of the panel. So I was hoping that one of the members could sort of read out those for the panel to listen and elaborate. Councilor Dyrus. If I could just, and it's to back Nick up and to perhaps bring a short Council of SCOBY, the appointment of Councillor Rostin as chair and so on was agreed by the working group in that meeting, so that when we had our first scoping meeting, we were able to hit the ground running. So there isn't any... There is no lack of procedure, just perhaps a little lack of recording it, but it was agreed by this panel that Councillor Rostin, and who would be on it, from there the scoping identified and need for perhaps a broader perspective, and that's where that's evolved from, so anyhow. Do you want me just to read this per se, Charles or...? Okay, I'm going to read what's in front of me, it's not necessarily my words, but OSP Working Group on Grant Funding. Question, how do we maximise grant funding coming into FANET? The aims of the group are to maximise grant funding coming into FANET through, identifying what we're doing or what we have done in the past that has worked well. Avoiding what we are doing or have done in the past that hasn't. Learning from feedback from infrastructure bodies, funders and voluntary organisations, considering how other comparable authorities work with their voluntary organisations and producing case studies and recommendations to Council. The proposed terms of reference are to report to focus on smaller grants, say up to 250,000 as the suggestion, to focus primarily on smaller voluntary sector bidders and how we can support them. To ask them and identify what information and skills they have and identify where gaps are. To ask town and parish councils, infrastructure bodies and funders, reference their experience of working with FANET organisations and what may help improve their success rates. To outline what has worked, what hasn't and how we can tailor support in future for greater impact without overburdening officers or creating significant extra costs. The proposed methodology is to meet, firstly meet with key TDC officers to discuss how we work with voluntary organisations and to share information. Louise, Clive, Penny, Nicola and Natasha have indicated they'd like to engage in that process via Google Meets or in person as appropriate. To meet with infrastructure bodies, town and parish councils and funding sources, again through Google Meet where appropriate unless face-to-face is available. To meet with voluntary organisations and reference their experience and their needs, this may lead to be a longer session or an evening meeting and preferably face-to-face. We need to obtain lists of potential invitees from Louise and Nicola and the town and parish councils. Number four is to undertake desk research comparing different councils approaches and that's agreed to be the responsibility of all working group members to do individual research and report back. Number five is to put together case studies for the report, again shared responsibility amongst all working group members. What was agreed at our scoping meeting, if I can just digress slightly, was that we would probably do one live meeting and then one Google Meets meeting to back up what was agreed at each phase of the live meetings. I think Charles you've been discussing with Tricia about how these can schedule and fit enough meetings in without overloading. Penn ultimately is to put together case studies for the report, if I may have already said that, but again shared amongst all working group members. And finally to compile the ultimate report and recommendations, which is all working group members with Charles so that we can bring a set of conclusions back to the panel. We have also identified funding bodies to invite, sorry infrastructure bodies to invite. At the moment it suggested that funding for all stronger Kent, safer communities alliance, charity mentors in Kent, social enterprise Kent, Kent coast volunteering and others as may be recommended by Councillors and officers during the identification process. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. Do we note that? Yeah, Councillor Scobee. Again, sort of from my understanding coming into this because it's very difficult to follow the chain of thought here, literally in minutes for the last meeting, it says the Chair confirmed and the panel agreed. So that's the first time I'm like here in those terms, that's a huge piece of work. I'm not suggesting, I don't know enough about this as to know whether that's needed or not, but it sounds like you're talking months worth of work there and for me, is this coming from a point where there's been an audit report or particular historic issues around this? See, there is fair enough, but if I look at some of the issues the Council dealing with at the moment, like poverty in Thanet or homelessness and the potential impact or all five priorities in the corporate plan, you know, the decision has been taken, so I guess it's sort of, you know, and the group has met, but that is a huge piece of work. You're talking about case studies, review of other bodies, you know, interviewing voluntary sector, interviewing council officers. That's a huge piece of work and feels like it's grown substantially from one line on the minutes at the last meeting to now being a committee covering, you know, a large piece of work, and is that really what this panel wants the working party to be doing? I don't know. I mean, I'd like to comment on some of the background. I mean, it's not, it's not, it's, I have two connections to grant funding. One was my work with Charlton and the other one is Ellington Park, where I was actually asked to provide feedback on the success of the grant, and it was, I think, over a million, 1.4 million, I think it was a 1.6. There were three attempts to get that grant application in, and I, I, in my feedback, my hour-long feedback with the, it was heritage funding, I think. I actually stated that I felt Thanet was losing out on grant applications in comparison to other sections of Kent. Indeed, Charlton had been approached to specifically put grants in so that certain charities could funnel money into Kent to make sure that we were, we were receiving grant funding. And one of the, one of the statements I got back is that if you compared somebody like, some a place like Royal Tumbridge with Thanet, then we are way down the list of smaller grants coming into Thanet, and I think addressing the poverty issue is directly related to this, because I think if we can identify the need and the desire, then we stand a good chance of bringing more funding into some of our volunteer sectors, and as a consequence, adding vital services to our community. Indeed, Charlton were invited, and they've been invited again, so we're now on the, I'm not no longer with Charlton, but we're now on our fourth, fourth phase of children in need funding, or Charlton R, which is absolutely unheard of, and it's to keep that provision in Thanet, because they are, they recognise there is a desperate need, and we're not actually getting the funding we need, so I think this is a really important thing for us to look at. Yeah, I think it's an important thing to look at, but if the panel feels that the terms of reference are taking it beyond what they expected, then I assume we can bring it back here and review it. And I would propose that we do that. I would point out that the terms of reference, and I understand the concern about the scope, however it was quite clear from our scoping meeting how broad the issues were, and how they were, you know, and how this was a substantial undertaking. I would, however, remind all that it was the working party that were prepared to take it on, identified what they were happy to do, so I don't see why there should be any issues, so there's not an issue with office at time or anything. Those who are already on that party are happy with what we've committed to do. If anybody's got an issue with doing that, that's their issue, not the parties. Thank you, Chair. I think it's very helpful to have heard the, you know, what's planned from the working party out loud here, but I think it would be much more helpful to have it as part of the agenda, perhaps the next meeting, just so we could consider it, and if we don't find any issues, we can just note it, but I think it's more appropriate for us as a panel to actually see everything written down. It does feel that there is a little bit of scope creep, but I'm just hearing it now, so I'm not able to look at it in detail. So I think it would be possibly a few, that's what you're already proposing, to add it to the next agenda with it in the pack as well. That would be helpful for us to consider it fully. I'll propose that then, yes. (inaudible) Sorry, I would suggest that the scoping work then comes before the full panel before we progress. In principle, I'm all for that, and because we fight, you know, understand on a transparency ticket, my only concern is how that affects Charles' work that he's done with the Chair. We are on a fairly limited projected timeframe on this, and doing that would put it back beyond the scope that we've agreed where we were looking to bring the final reports back by the end of July, if I'm not mistaken. It was the end of July for the right-up of the report, and then to be presented to the panel at the August meetings. At the moment we had arranged just one meeting for the 6th of June, which I believe we can do away with so that the panel can consider these draft terms of reference only, and they are meeting on the 18th of June. Yeah, as I say, I think at the very worst of that, it's going to be pushed back, the final deadline will be pushed back by four weeks, which in council terms is not very far. If it's only four weeks, then I'll withdraw that or, you know, but obviously you understand the concern. Can I suggest a bit of a compromise then? Because I think, as councilor Davis sort of said, if the panel have agreed to take on this work and stuff's already progressing, I don't think we want to stop that enthusiasm. I take the point that councilor Wing and others have said about the importance of this. For me, I just want to make sure that this doesn't become massive and gets delayed because we're waiting for interviews. So maybe we could, you know, I'm suggesting that maybe we agree the terms of reference as outlined by councilor Davis, but we put a deadline for a report to come back at the latest by end of September, which means that it gives them an opportunity to do this work. If August is when we're looking at it, it gives a little bit of slip if somebody isn't available, but make sure that this panel has the opportunity to potentially do another working party later in this year, and to consider other issues. You just don't want mission creep to also become deadline, keep on being pushed back because you want to gather more information. I'm sorry about that. Charles, has already been... I don't think there's lockdown in there. Does this work? I'd already described a timetable for this. If we approve it now, there's already a timetable worked out. Is that correct? That is correct, Chair, but I think councilor Scobee is saying if the compromise is that you agree the terms of reference as read out by councilor Davis, and then that would certainly mean, might mean pushing back the time when we will bring the report back to the panel to the September meeting. I think that's what he said. Thank you, Chair. I completely object to any attempt to set a definitive timeline at the moment, other than the democratically agreed timeframe that the panel agreed to work to. Again, those doing the work have looked at this and agreed what we're going to do. I understand Councillor Scobee has got other areas of concern that he'd like to bring on, but the point-scoring matrix, as we progress through the working year, will determine how that comes forward and that's what the matrix is for. I think to start judging what's happening here with the potential scope and impact of this would be wrong. I think we just need to carry on down the path we've already set. Chair, point of personal explanation on that. Point of personal explanation. That's been proposed and seconded to refer the scope as read out to the next meeting. All those in favour? Yeah, as a point of personal explanation under the constitution, I get to respond to a comment made. Not in the middle of a vote, I don't think. That's carried. No. Personal explanation. You're okay. I've also got a list of reports that we've asked for from officers. There is one in particular which is to be updated regularly about external funding for the regeneration projects. Now, we've asked for this a number of times and it hasn't happened. Now, is there a reason for that? I don't know. Would you like me to comment on that, Chair? Yes, please. Yes, please do. Sorry. First thing I'd say is that we bought two very detailed reports on the programme. One at the end of last year, one early this year, it provided quite a lot of detail about the progress of the regeneration projects across both the Margate and the Ramsgate programmes. And that was precursors to decisions that were subsequently made at Covenant. Secondly, we also gave commitment that we would bring detailed reports of all the projects that would progress through the regeneration programme as they were ready to do that. We will still do that and that's a commitment that we've given. We are also working on new project management arrangements and I think some of you certainly were present at the briefing we gave last week about our proposals for project management, which I hope you agree will make a significant difference to the way projects have managed across the Council, including those in the regeneration programme as well as others. And see, there's probably of equal significance and equal cost is the housing programme that's covered by that piece of work as well. One of the things that we talked about in that briefing was the need to introduce a new reporting mechanism across the programme so that you can be alerted to significant projects that are either delivering on time or falling behind their programme or whatever the issues are. I think our view at this point is that you need a bit more than just a red amber green rating on projects and you'll need some commentary on how we're delivering against each of those key projects. What we can't do, I don't think, is provide you with regular updates on everything that we're doing that falls into the heading of project management. You know, that would just be far too much for the officers to be able to resource, but we can commit to do that on the significant projects of particular interest. As part of the project management framework, and we talked about this corporate management team today, we're developing a size assessment tool for project managers to assess the impact of their projects and looking at a number of different things. Firstly, the level of expenditure. We've already got a mechanism where everything that's a key decision, so over 250,000 has to come here, has to go to cabinet at some stage in its project lifestyle to get life cycle to get approval to spend that and commit that resource. But also in addition to looking at project costs, we want to look at the level of risk and align the risk management in project management to the council's risk management framework and identify those projects which present a high level of risk to the council. And in addition to that, take a view about how projects contribute either to the degree corporate plan, or impact on our communities, or there was another criteria we included, which has just escaped my mind for a moment. But that mechanism really is a way for us to identify the projects that we think that are of most importance to you as a committee and to cabinet and to other members to get updates on, and we'll be working on that through our new service planning process, which is happening over the next few months and flows from the agreed corporate plan. So, so I think there's a lot of work being done in this area. Obviously, I know the officers leading in the regeneration program have been here a number of times and talk through all of the projects that they're working on. And before we commit expenditure on any projects that are above those spending thresholds, then there'll be opportunity to talk through those in detail here as well. So hopefully that gives the panel some reassurance that we are working on that, and it's certainly our intention to keep us up to date as we possibly can on the program. It certainly reassures me, that's a very comprehensive answer. So I wish you recognised that this body is meant to scrutinise the activities. That's fine. Nice anybody else wishes to come in? Just one very quick comment, thank you chair, and it's just, again, just to highlight and remind that historically we seem to be not particularly good at retrospective screws and we don't indulge in free screws, which is highly recommended in government guidelines. So the more we can be involved in the development of projects and everything, then, but again, I'm not trying to preach to the converted or thank you. Do members have any other questions to ask about the work program, Councillor SCABY? Just a suggestion, Chair, because I think we've got the opportunity to invite cabinet members to future meetings. And I was just going to suggest that as it's been a year since the implementation of the new corporate plan and the new leadership of the Council, whether it might be a good moment to invite the leader to come to over the June or July meeting to present progress on the corporate plan and the five priorities. Is that a proposal? It can be. Is that a second did? I'll second that. That second did? It is a proposal. I think this relates to our work program, but it relates to the way we work in relation to our work program. So I know Ingrid had sent us an update on the Government guidance on overview and scrutiny. In my email back to her, I said it might be useful for overview and scrutiny to have an updated training session on those changes or anything of significance in that Government report, which very often doesn't use layman's terms to make us have a bit of understanding about what our role is here. We've had recent updates in licensing and planning that have been very useful. So I wondered if that was possible in the future. Members got an appetite for training? No. Go ahead. Whether you've got an appetite for it or not. We're running a session on the 24th of July, which is part of the Member Training Program that came out to all members. Very end of last week. And that will be run as an in-house thing, and that's one of the things we'll cover at that session. Absolutely. That closes the meeting. Thank you. This is the meeting. What's this? There's two days. Do you have a look and consult them, Matt? You still got it?
Transcript
happen later this year, is Kent College are going to use the knives to create a sculpture. This will be a mobile display that can then be taken to other places to get the message home about knives but also to have something positive come out of what could be a very negative and dangerous thing. So it's quite an innovative idea and we hope that it will be displayed in the local art gallery. That says about the sculpture. So the next slide is about the Thanet Youth Council which was established in November 2022 which I expect you all to remember as all council, the cup I should say remembers very well and there's still your video up online for everyone who wants to see that. But it is something that we are really trying to take forward because this is the most obvious voice of young people in its engagement with Thanet Council. So the Youth Council meets monthly and we try and make it as much as possible youth led. So Tracy Moon is the officer that has the day to day responsibility for the organisation and running of it but she takes a back seat and the young people actually chair the meetings decide the agenda so we really are trying to make it youth led. But we have to go quite slowly. There's a number of things to bear in mind with the Youth Council. Usually the people that are involved with it are the older young people. Anyone from years 7 to 13 can be a member of the Youth Council but obviously at the beginning of their senior school life they're not so likely to get involved and engaged in something like this it's likely to be the older ones and then of course there's a limited number of years before they outgrow the aid range for the council. So it's a constantly moving membership. Also although we've got over 20 people signed up to it they don't all come to every meeting and partly that's because you know they've got their school work they've got their out of school lives as well but also some people try it once and don't come back. I know Tracy works very hard in keeping the engagement going contacting young people if they haven't turned up for a number of meetings seeing if they're still interested and also when people first come along they might you know be interested but then actually making that first move to come along to a sort of quite formal environment. We have the Youth Council meetings either in the chamber or in the Austin Room and that's to give young people again the chance to really appreciate you know sort of what happens in a council building. So I think it's a very genuine experience for young people but as I say it takes time to build up their confidence and also we don't want to impose an agenda on them so for example what they have decided is going to be something that they want to work with is community safety and in particular safe spaces for young people but they're also quite interested in safe spaces for everybody and we've talked a lot about things like you know in parks are they safe do they feel safe there and so that's something that is an ongoing piece of work. One thing they have achieved and it might sound quite a little thing but it was a very interesting process watching them negotiate it is they've designed their own Fanny Youth Council logo and as I say that might sound a very simple thing but they had to learn how to negotiate with each other to agree one sort of end product. The other thing they've talked a lot about is trying to publicise it more and how young people get the information about it. Now Tracy and her team do a lot of work in schools as some of the other slides will show and obviously they always introduce the idea of the Youth Council whenever it's appropriate in that work but young people do a lot on social media these days so the young people very much recognised that they needed something you know sort of Instagram social media reach to engage more young people and also then it's not just the people that come to the council it means that it's easy for other young people that might just be interested in what's happening there to get that information to, oops I've gone one on. So I don't know if people have heard of park life, been along to park life at all, no? Chris again this is a multi-agency outdoor event that is held twice a year aimed at 7 to 25 year olds and so there's a variety of different stalls and activities and the idea is that young people come along and they can interact with the police, the youth service, they had wild swimming there, the one I went to, all sorts of activities and things for young people but also again the young people from the Youth Council they have a stall there so again they can talk to young people and encourage them to join the youth council or find out more about what it does and there's pictures of the stalls from one of them on a not very sunny day but you can't guarantee the weather. There's also the Ellington Park Youth Cafe and in a way that's a similar sort of initiative where it's a multi-agency approach and so Ellington Park can be a hub for some antisocial behaviour as most parks can and so the friends of the Ellington Park who are a very active group and other agencies have provided this safe space for people to hang out but it also means as I say they can link with other agencies, other avenues of support there and so that's another initiative again that the Youth Council may be involved in by people going along there. There seems to be quite a few slides on Ellington Park but as I say you will get all these slides. The ladder of risk is something that is taken into schools for young people when they're making that transition into senior school and I mean it's a fascinating interactive activity whereby young people are given cards of what could be risky situations, alcohol, social media, things like that and they're asked to place them where they think they are on the ladder of risk and so this opens up conversations about how young people will, you know, what they consider dangerous but also how they can look after themselves so it's a tool for sort of learning for them. And I don't know, well I know a couple of you went to the pickleball opening just the other day but that's been something that this is all about engaging young people in activity in things like sports but also you know getting them to do something sort of constructive and productive to discourage antisocial behaviour. Also the more our parks and open spaces are used for activities the safer they are for everyone and the less likely antisocial behaviour is to happen. So safety in action is an awareness week, another multi-agency event and I think that's the thing with all these things. It's really important to try and get young people in touch with all the different agencies both that can support them but also so they see them as a positive interaction and not distant from them as young people and obviously bullying is something that a lot of young people experience and has obviously very negative effects and so it's about looking at things like that and how young people can keep themselves safe. The pickleball courts are now open in broad stairs and it's great fun so there's going to be sort of more courses or more sessions in the summer. The courts are free, they're open all the time except they probably have to shut in the evening to keep them from vandalism and that but it is a free activity and there are going to be sessions obviously you will hear more about them for all age groups but young people as well. There they are, panic games, obviously we've got the Olympics and this is our own Olympics. So again it's clubs coming together, activities for all age groups, there's going to be a young people's events in July and then adult events in August and then a closing ceremony at the end of the adults week. And so it's again looking at young people, well all ages but young people's activities and how they can engage with them and you know how they can keep safe. Obviously it's not just the Senate District Council that provides activities for young people. We've got the Pie Factory which I expect most people know about, obviously there are funding issues around that but sessions like this do a lot of good for young people and so it is about making sure young people know about them and can access them and looking as time goes forward as to how we can support them when funding can become difficult. We've also got obviously Kent County Council are responsible for some youth services and then we've got things like porch light and changing minds and well a whole wealth of other organisations that work across the district for young people. So in looking for going forward Park Life continues to grow and develop and new agencies join so that's something that is a growing model and a good way of engaging young people and getting the information to them. The Senate Youth Council is looking for more members. One of the questions you asked for this session was about how many people go, how do they get to know about the council. At the moment on most meetings we probably have about half a dozen young people coming. So it's a fairly small number even of the 20 that are current members. But we are looking how we can grow that. One of the things that we are doing, I think is on the next side, that's the next one. Oh yes, growing numbers but we're looking at an event schools forum in Broadstairs which Councillor BRI has been instrumental in because most schools have a school council so it's a similar sort of model and sort of it's about looking at whether any of the people from the school council would be interested in joining the youth service but also how we can meet up the people that are already on the school councils and what they want to achieve and their wishes and goals and that with the youth council. So getting the crossover of ideas and maybe ideas for the youth council to take forward as well as possibly new members. In terms of members as I say it's years 7 to 13 and so anyone can join from any school and if they're interested they just need to contact Tracy Moon or her team and she can give them all the information. One of the things that you as Councillors could do is make sure that young people in your area know about it so if you have ways like through your newsletters or if you have Facebook pages of that, of signposting it, that would be very helpful. I think we've probably covered most of these things. Yes, there you are and so we've come to any questions. Sorry, because I'd kind of talked through the slides I've kind of covered the information I wanted to from those slides but you will all get the slides as a pack so you'll get all the information that's on them but as I say I think more importantly it's what questions you want to ask me. I have a simple one to start with. What's the size of the youth team that you mentioned that's done? I think I'm going to hang over to Pena, yes. We don't have a youth team, it's the community team so this is only a very small part of their work and there is four of them, five of them plus the manager. I worked with Tracy when I was working for Charlton with young people and it's in safe hands. She's the right person for the job totally in Italy and obviously I come from a 26 year teaching background and I've got a huge passion for young people and actually feel that they need to be front and centre a lot more than they actually are. Have you thought of allocating or have we thought of allocating the young people a small budget so that they can actually learn to, I've got three or four questions, they can actually learn to lead on a project and manage the project from start to finish with a small financial, yep. They have a small budget at the moment it's only a thousand pounds but for exactly that reason and they are currently looking at what project they want to do to use that money so it will be teaching them project management skills as well. My next question is being that I'm 62 next birthday, I think there's less mileage in survey in me as a resident and more mileage in actually survey in young people. Have we ever considered surveying young people in a similar way to which we do adults about what they think about the services we provide and what they'd like to see in their communities. I mean I think this could be simply done by accessing the young people through schools and youth clubs but it would certainly be interesting to see whether their views and wishes and desires for the community actually matches people like me who at the other end really. Yeah I mean strangely enough the young people have actually surveyed young people and again this is where I say we have to take it quite slowly with them because I'm sure there's much more information that we would like to gather about what their issues are and what they would like to see and I'm particularly interested in your idea about them actually commenting on council services per se but what they did do is and sort of have done like the community events that they've been at and also within their schools and that is to gather young people's views on what their main issues are and that's how they came up with the priority of safety that was the thing that kept coming up with young people. In is a big issue for youth services and obviously most of that funding comes via KCC. I believe we should be working more collaboratively across the three levels of governance, town, district and county to ensure maximum benefits to each of our funding pots but I'm particularly interested in the leveling up money and the new 20 million that we have coming into Ramsgate and I had welcomed again making sure young people's center and front with some of that funding that particularly is coming into Ramsgate and I'd certainly like to see some of that money allocated to activities and services then. That was a question, my question is will the council, will we consider allocating money particularly to support young people in our communities, particularly leveling up money and the new 20 million coming into Ramsgate? My answer is I hope so, I mean obviously all this funding has a lot of conditions tied to it and so we would need to look at what the capacity is for focusing on young people like that, some of the projects, I mean like for example the Margate Skate Park are already focused on young people but I agree with you it would be good to see more focus on it to see how all the projects we're doing could involve or be of benefit to young people. Thank you. Yeah, thank you and thanks for the presentation. As far as I'm aware the Police and Crime Commissioner allocates about 30K to the Thunder District Council. Is there an opportunity here talking about crime, you know I think the first thing you said it was like a knife amnesty, to give our young people a bit of freedom with that money to try and tackle crime head-on because sometimes we sit here as adults and think the best way but actually sometimes they're a bit more creative so I just wanted to say we can tap into that money. They don't actually give us the money in terms of we're allowed it and we can spend what we like, we have to put together project plans beforehand which is what some of these projects have come out of that money and they talk to the Youth Council about things like that so the intelligence we get back is fed into that but we could talk to them about whether there's anything extra they could give to Youth Council has so far we haven't been successful but there is always the option. Unfortunately we used to get a part of money that we could spend on whatever we liked within the element. Now we have to have sort of funding and ideas up front of which they have to agree so it's not quite as simple as it used to be unfortunately. On that note I'd just like to add that the young people do go along to the IAG meetings and do speak out so although they haven't got any money from it yet I mean they are involved in talking about young people's safety in that kind of form. And then the other question is how involved are they in actual levelling up ideas, things like the skate park and things like that but any more that is designed for their generation. Thanks. So they have been involved, Louise brings things to the Youth Council and they discuss it was on one of the slides that unfortunately it was spouting correctly I did notice afterwards. It's a regeneration as opposed to a regeneration team. Yeah they do intend and talk about that sort of stuff so they are involved in it and we are encouraging any decisions that we make to try and incorporate the Youth Council if it fits within the timelines for some of the things that we do. Finding back to the knife sculptures and the knife crime is there anywhere inside it that we've got bleed packs? Yes there are. So they were supplied by the Violence Reduction Unit from Kent Police and they are located in police vehicles and they have varying size ones and at some strategic locations which off the top of my head I can't remember but I will find out. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor CUM for the presentation as well, you know the Youth Engagement is an absolute priority for me and I'm quite interested in the Ellington Park Youth Cafe. Is that actually a TDC initiative or is it run by volunteers? If it is a TDC initiative are there any plans to roll that out in other towns? Thank you. So it is run by the volunteers obviously with us and our support and CUM police and a few other people. It's a trial for May and June this year so if it is successful and it's something we can carry on forward then yes absolutely it would be something we could look to roll out in other places if they have a similar set up with a safe safe place so obviously it's got the cafe there so people can attend specifically the cafe location but it's a working progress on that one. That's really good news, thank you. So I'm sure we'd like to do something in Brawl's Dares with the little music room there in Piedmont Park, I think that would be a perfect place for a youth cafe and also just something that wasn't mentioned here but was I think was a real success was that the climate change CAG we had representatives from Charles Dickens and St George's who were engaged with regarding the cycle and walking network SUS trans. And that was brilliant and I would really welcome more of that so I think if we could involve kids and bring them into council meetings it was so successful they had so much to say so I definitely would like to see more of that, thank you. So that's completely outside of this particular area, it does happen to sit in my area so I do know about it and it was specific around that particular project which is why Morgan was quite keen to bring them in because it has a massive impact and we had already or SUS trans had already spoken to them about how it would work for them and how to make their journeys to school easier and safer so and yeah that's on a separate piece of work so it's not really the community team leading on it and I think there is something that on a next team has considered and always are looking for youth voices around things that we do so I think there is, as and when we can bring them in we do I think is probably the answer to that question. Coming on that because they did get invited to the plastic free, fannet working group as well and I think that's the thing it's also for councillors because of course they can get involved on a area town level as well it doesn't have to be just fannet council as a whole so if there are initiatives going on in your locality that you would like to get the voice of young people for then again if you talk to Tracy we can ask if there are volunteers to do that and for all the things that you know have been suggested to them so far they've always responded very positively and you know there has been people willing to be the representative and they've also worked with Kent County Council, Youth Council so they're very keen to look for opportunities even though they're quite a small group they are really keen on you know doing the role to the best of their ability. Thank you, there's no question it's just a comment if I make sure, just to say thank you for this presentation it's really encouraging to see how everything is still progressing it's really lovely to see the youth councils in a safe pair of hands as well and really progressing well and I think this is one area of the council that we don't shout loud enough about you know the work that goes on is massive and has a very big impact on a lot of people's lives especially obviously young people and I do think we need to make sure that we're shouting a little bit louder about the fantastic work that's going on by the Dannick Community Safety Team as well thank you Chair. Could I ask is it is it possible to share more of what the youth council are talking about with councillors because A. councillors could pass it on to youth in their boards but B I'm sure most councillors would really like to know. We can put it in the loop we can use methods like that to make sure that everyone is aware of what they're doing it's a good idea. I think Heather will take it forward I mean I don't want to put specifics on it because I think it needs to be led from the children maybe I'm just sowing some seeds but by the looks of it it's progressing well and you know everybody involved should be congratulating themselves. Do know as I say sort of Penny leading it is absolutely passionate about it and young people so she's doing brilliant work and Tracy as well as Penny yes you didn't know. Can we please note the report and thank both of you for your presentation thank you. Do we have to vote on that. We don't have to vote on note of the report. Next item is item five the Port of Ramsgate maintenance dredging. Thank you Chair so this report describes the proposed plan for maintenance dredging at the Port of Ramsgate for this financial year. The dredging plan will require a key decision to undertake a single dredging campaign with an estimated value of £362,000. This proposal will be recommended to cabinet on the 30th of May and if approved the work will be undertaken via an existing four plus one year maintenance dredging term contract that was awarded to the marine contractor Van Ord in 2021. The total value of the 2024-25 dredging plan is £477,000 and the budget value this year is £325,000 so it will therefore also be recommended on the 30th of May that cabinet approves a one-off general fund revenue budget from the corporate contingency budget to fund the estimated £152,000 shortfall. The proposed dredging is via a method known as hydro dynamic dredging which mobilises deposited sediments back into the water column. The suspended sediment then leaves the harbour on a falling tide. Hydro dynamic dredging methods have been used at Ramsgate for approximately 12 years and have proven to be more financially efficient than mechanical methods such as grab dredging. Previous hydro dynamic dredging campaigns at Ramsgate have delivered present day value productivity rates of about £2 per metre cube of sediment removed and by comparison mechanical dredging will cost more and probably in the region of £3.50 per metre cube of sediment. The dredging plan this year will focus on the port turning circle, the port entrance, the harbour entrance and the approach to Berth 4.5. The council has a contractual obligation to provide vessels with access to Berth 4.5 for the purpose of discharging cargoes to the Brett aggregate site. The volume of sediment to be removed during this dredging campaign is approximately 124,000 cubic metres to which for context is roughly the same in volume as the water held in 50 Olympic sized swimming pools. It's important that dredging at the port is undertaken within the next one to two months to maintain an acceptable depth of water in the port at all states of tide. It also makes sense to plan this work over the summer to avoid the increased bad weather risk associated with winter dredging. In order to secure the dredger in June an order has been placed for a smaller 75,000 cubic metre dredging campaign at an estimated cost of £228,000. This will improve vessel access but without the more substantial dredging campaign that we're discussing here there is a greater chance that we would need to undertake further work later in the financial year. The approval of the proposed key decision will increase the quantity of dredging undertaken allowing for a greater depth to be achieved across the entire area to be dredged. Environmental monitoring will be undertaken alongside the dredging operation to mitigate the risk of adverse effects on nearby receptors. This is important as the port is in close proximity to multiple designated sites that are rich in biodiversity. The dredging planned for the port in June will take two to three weeks to complete, engagement will take place with stakeholders at the port and the harbour and updates will be provided as required via usual communication channels which includes our notice to mariners' service. The plan for this year can be found at Appendix A of the report. Thank you. Thank you. Any questions, Councillors? I'd like to ask questions. Thank you. I'd like to ask a question but then also potentially come in later on a debate with the discussion. Thank you. Thank you for the report. I wonder if you could just give a bit more information about some of the legal impacts of not doing it. In the report it talks about that we might be breaching the open port duty, potentially opening ourselves up for legal claims from vessels damaged and there could be an impact on future revenue. Can you just give a bit more detail on that, please? Yeah, certainly, so Tannet District Council is a statutory harbour authority. So there is an act, the 1934 Corporation Act of Ramsgate which makes us a statutory harbour authority and that means that we have duties under that, under the harbour act and that legislation, to conserve or maintain the port estate and that includes dredging. So there is an obligation to dredge to allow vessel access. If we don't do that then there's obviously a safety risk for vessels navigating in the port because they may run aground to cause damage and safety, obviously, risk of safety to people on those vessels. And also it would impede trade and because there's an act saying that as a statutory harbour authority we're an open port we must remain open and the birth be accessible. Thank you very much for the report, can I just ask about the overspend because it looks like the budget, forgive me if I paraphrase, it looks like the budget's been reduced here on year which is why we're now in overspend at the point where we actually need to do the work. How have we, did we arrive in that place, was that something that was planned that we would produce in knowing that when we actually need to do the work there would be an overspend and therefore the contingency would cover it? So yeah, the budget has reduced over year so the report talks about the value of the budget in 2013 when we last had to schedule cross-channel service and it's gradually reduced over time to a point where the budget wasn't sufficient to be able to undertake maintenance dredging and in the budget this year there's an extra 180,000 that's been put into the revenue budget for dredging in response to that being raised through the Council's Star Chamber process last year where we're looking at budget growth items. So I think it's recognised that the reductions in the dredging budget available, the maintenance dredging budget available meant that there was too little money in the budget to be able to sustain or maintain the dredged depth and that's why that money was put back in. We do what's called hydrographic monitoring so we monitor the dredged depth three times a year and that monitoring has shown that there was quite a lot of accretions, quite a lot of material came in over the winter, we were already at a level where we needed to do dredging but more materials come in over the winter and that has led to this situation where when we do the volumetric calculation on how much dredging is required to get to a particular target depth has meant that we need to spend more than the budget that's available and that's what's led to that proposal to increase the budget by 152,000 pounds to enable us to dredge to a level that continues to comply with our duty. May I just ask a follow-up question, is there some thought or some investigation into whether the new method of dredging as opposed to grabbed dredging might be responsible for the extra need because if I understand correctly it disperses sediment which could potentially come back which looks like it's been doing over the last 12 years as opposed to grabbed dredging which would actually displace it all together? So with regard to that, has there been some evidence or audit into that being the more it's obviously been more cost effective year on year but over time has that been looked into whether it's been more cost effective over time to do that method as opposed to the other? No, not as such, I mean the way any port or harbour interrupts the currents and the long short drift process and material that's in the water column and suspended all the time that water is passing on the coast, as soon as that goes into a port the conditions by which it stays suspended disappear because the water goes into a port and it slows down and then that material falls out of suspension. What water injection dredging or hydro dynamic dredging does is it puts that material back into what's called a density cloud so it's not just sort of agitating it and putting it all over the place in the water, it's creating a dense cloud of material near the bed still which on a falling tide, and it's important it's only done on a falling tide, then leaves the harbour via gravity because it's heavier than the water around it, as soon as it gets out into the current it then is taken with the current back on the path that it would have taken had the port not been there. So the material that leaves the harbour isn't necessarily the material that's coming back in, there is a complex offshore system of sand and sediment that travels along the shore, it feeds offshore sand banks like the Good Winds and it travels quite a long distance. So there's a possibility that some of the materials, some of the particles that have left will come back again but it is a long shore drift process and the material passing by that is effectively captured by the ports because it is there and most ports have some sort of dredging requirement, if you can have a port that doesn't require dredging that's quite an unusual thing. Go on to the Davis. Thank you Chair. I think something comes out to me from what's just been discussed about the fact that the reason we've got to spend this amount of money now as Councillor Farruki rightly drew out, you haven't spent it when we perhaps needed to, so that effectively means that the losses that we've already experienced and have seen quoted for the port and harbour are actually worse than we've known, that's the effective outcome of this because now we're off into via money from other budgets to cover what wasn't done in the past, the first question that really I'd like to know is, and obviously we want the best possible facilities for vessels. However, it's substantially more expensive to dredge to four metres against chart dates and to three and a half, in fact to the June of about 50,000. My question is, where it clearly states that the idea of dredging the approach to births four and five is to extend the landing window, that's effectively for one operator and Brits because nobody else uses those births, and in fact Brits haven't been using them because they haven't put the super structure on there. Do we really need to spend that money or would it be better perhaps? I understand the benefit of going for the bigger project all in one hit, but at the moment there wouldn't be really any gain, and that's just dredging it for it to seal top again. Can you answer that, or is that beyond your... Yeah, thank you, Councillor, for the question. I think the concise answer is yes, we do need to do that. We have a contractual obligation to do that because of the contract with the leasing facilities agreement with Brett aggregates, and as an open port we have an obligation to do so as well. So no, there isn't an option not to dredge. No, but what percentage of the overall budget here is actually for that approach to births four and five rather than maintaining access so the wind farms can get in and out. So we're dredging to that depth to allow, I mean you always need to dredge for the largest vessels that the port is accommodating, and you're right, those largest vessels are vessels that go into birth four or five at the moment. It is being used because the vessel that DC Velandran is coming in, and obviously the birth when it's operational with the conveyor on it, I mean there will be coasters coming into that birth as well. The dredging is not only for, you know, for Brett aggregates and for the vessels that visit birth four or five. The dredging is at the port entrance where there's a sandbar that's gradually moving across the port entrance so we need to remove that. It's at the harbour entrance so where there's sand around the port control area between the east and west pier, and it's in the turning circle which benefits any vessel that's entering the port area because it's about maintaining, you know, a much longer and better tidal window in the main port turning circle area for all vessels. Okay, thanks, okay. Thank you. Thank you for your report. I sort of welcome this dredging as I suspect quite a number of boat owners and big larger vessel owners welcome. I get the, I understand the now we've got an overspend that we need to address and perhaps with hindsight we should have allocated some money coming forward to address this but we haven't and it needs to be done. I have got a number of questions so I take them one at a time Mike. I've done the swim from Ramsgate to Broadstairs on that current, it's really easy and I crude on a yacht so I know there is a strip of water just outside the harbour entrance that either goes that way or that way depending on whether the tides rise in or fall in and it's a very tricky piece of water. So I'm making the assumption that on a fall in tide that it is that that will be heading towards Sandwich Bay rather than Broadstairs so most of the sediment will head towards Sandwich am I thinking and the peg will bae or? I'll answer that one first, no actually it's when as the on a falling tide the particles travel sort of in the roughly in a northeasterly direction so they don't they don't go round to peg will bae and that environmental monitoring I spoke about one of the elements of that is a transect monitoring on the chalk reef at peg will what we need to make sure obviously is that that sediment doesn't go out come out and do what you described and go round onto the chalk reef and smother the the muscle beds and shellfish beds so during that dredging there will be regular daily monitoring to make sure that that's not happening and we know from experience that the time the time to stop in the tidal cycle the time to stop hydrogen dynamic dredging to avoid that so it you know it's very important that we stick to a six-hour window of dredging on each tide cycle so that it's only when those particles will be traveling away and out rather than round the corner and landing on the shore. Thank you also at the harbor entrance is a big problem there was footage last week of a yacht getting stuck coming in I think it was a lot of fairly low tide and and they just got trapped and had to wait for the tide to rise so there is a particular problem below the the east pier below the the port office of the of the the brassery the harbor brassery where where are beaches as developed so I'm not quite certain how this blow system if you like would would address that because we've always had the grab the grab bucket will will this system address that particular problem yes so I keep referring to hydro dynamic dredging and that's because there's more than one method and the vessel that van order bringing to to to Ramsgate for this campaign is capable of what's called water injection dredging which will be you which we use for the majority of the sediment to be removed which is a very fine silt so water injection dredging is high volume but low pressure so it it lifts the silt and then it falls under gravity as this density cloud the alternative method of hydro dynamic dredging is something called mass flow which is high volume high pressure where instead of having lots and lots of nozzles underneath the dredger that that gradually agitates and suspends the sediment it effectively pushes larger coarser material such as sand and it's effectively sweeping it and and that is the method that will be used around the port entrance and the harbour entrance to push the sand back out into the flow and again that sand although it's it's coarser it is also readily mobilised once we get out into those currents that we know exist outside the port entrance and that's very clearly evidence by the fact that the port is served by an approach channel and that approach channel was dredged in 1980 and we monitor it every year as we're required to do but we've never had to re dredge that and the reason for that is because the conditions that exist there mean that sand can't drop out a suspension into that area so we know that when when we dredge through hydro dynamic dredging and push sand into that area it will be taken away by natural currents as if the port weren't there basically well sorry there's more ones I know there's a big problem in the in a harbour because a lot of boat owners approach me directly and and the level of sediment is is raising and it's meeting the bottom of their boats have we any plans to address that particular issue yeah so there isn't anything under this dredging plan so we have done in last financial year we did some targeted grab dredging in the in a marina but there aren't it so I think we were talking about the yeah the locked marina we were talking about there aren't any plans in in this plan in this financial year but again it's something through our hydrographic surveys that we'll monitor and and you know put that into the plan when we when we next need to that will be grab dredging we can't use water injection dredging in the in a marina because you're just basically push it into the outer marina and then have to move it again so last question is do you feel that once we've got this period of dredging done that there's a there's a good plan going forward and that we're never going to have a period of no dredging which then creates the problem we've got now um no I think by its nature it's I mean we we we do maintenance dredging every year um we're doing more this year because of the the levels that have have been deposited um over a quite a long period of time but um you know next year we'll we'll need to do more dredging there's no there's no doubt about no doubt about that uh I've got a couple then I'll come back to you um does does any of this sand and silt end up on ramsgate main sense um probably not some of the sand may do um in fact if we if we dredge using a grab dredging method there is a licensed disposal site for clean sand just off ramsgate main beach so if we used grab dredging and use that site it would almost certainly come back onto ramsgate beach but but it is this is the same material that is already on the beach it's not we're not putting anything there that isn't in the natural system already but through this method and this technique it probably won't come back round onto the beach it'll probably go further away contamination contamination on the on the beach I mean how how clean is it so yeah generally speaking this is this is sediment that exists outside the harbor as well um so this isn't this isn't a you know a foreign material that's that's that's put there and then and then taken out of the harbor um as part of the marine licensing requirements um generally not for this water injection dredging but generally we um you know we have a a dredging license which requires sampling so that's sampling um you know we take samples and send that off to laboratory where it's tested for um you know various contaminants heavy metals things like that um so we you know have a pretty good idea what's in the material but generally speaking you know this is this is material that's coming through the port entrance and and fallen out of suspension and particularly where we're taking the top layers off what we're talking about here it hasn't fallen out of suspension very long ago so it's you know it's relatively clean material really found and questioned perhaps a bit naive longer term is it possible to reduce the ingress of sand or silt into the a very difficult to engineer a harbor where you don't need to do any dredging um yeah it's yeah not not easy to to to stop it coming in it's very variable so when we have sustained north easterly storms and we've had a few of those over the winter we get more material coming in um if we have uh you know if we go back to when there was last scheduled cross-channel service the natural movement of large vessels tends to limit the amount that falls out of suspension so although it comes in those vessels moving around help to maintain it in suspension and it goes out with the falling tide so you actually end up with less material um staying when you've got lots of vessel movements but in terms of actually stopping it coming in no that's um that there's not really a method of a method of doing that at ramskate um historically of course the um the inner marina at ramskate was was it the cross wall and the inner marina was designed to flush the harbor of silt that was what it was there for there were you know sluices that flushed it out so there was a an old method of doing it without dredging but uh but that that's not very compatible with having a marina in there thanks chair um counselor davis in one of his question mentioned that the port is losing money i think we had a question on this at gna and i think this year or last financial year it didn't lose money he just clarified for somebody relatively new to the council what the position of the port is and if those losses are real losses or the result of depreciation and mortisation yes so so every year we publish annual accounts on the port and the harbor um if we take the port position without uh the depreciation element then it's close to break even or break even it certainly has been in recent years or or it makes us a relatively small loss if you include the depreciation part which is uh you know which is not uh uh something that uh has an impact on um on taxpayers it's not you know so it's not you know it's not a direct uh revenue loss there but if you include that then it then the reported loss is much much higher so um you know somewhere like a million pounds more on that sort of that sort of value chair have i made just a follow up question can you explain to me what the corporate contingency budget is that this is coming from and with that i'm which i'm assuming is a reserve and if that budget is reduced this year presumably it will be need to be replenished from revenue in the next budget but will the um and again this may be a question for finality i don't know but when they were setting that reserve would they've assumed potential costs related to doing this dredging so that the funds going back into the revenue from a revenue budget will be less than the original amount because this money has now been spent this is the point where i hope that there will be a finance going next to me but no it is a reserve so yes it's uh you know the corporate contingency is it is a reserve as for a summit it it is there to cover you know such eventualities as this um as for the the you know the position of it next year and assumptions i think i might have to come back to you on that after consulting with uh you know with with the head of finance that would be helpful and just the the rationale behind that it's just understanding how we factor in reserves at the point is it just a amount of money we put there is a rainy day fund or are we building it around scenarios and if that scenario then comes that money spent do we then have two or three years to put that money back because it's unlikely you would have the same risk or scenario happen in multiple years so i'd appreciate if you could follow up on that thank you do members have any recommendations to forward to to come and no then thank you very much for your so item is item six which i'm not quite sure what the the title is it's it's approval for various policies for the for the tenant and leaseholder services and it's being presented by salia saliva thank you um so back in october 2020 uh this tenant leaseholder services transition from east kent housing and at that point in time we adopted new landlord compliance policies um they are basically for our tenant's health and safety they were drafted for us by consultant and they were very robust due to the position we were in in terms of being under notice by the regulator for social housing at the time um policies need to be reviewed on a regular basis to ensure they're still working in the way they're intended and are kept up to date with current legislation or regulations the policies are brought for review today are gas safety electrical safety passenger lifts water hygiene and asbestos the fire safety policy was reviewed and adopted in june 23 following the introduction of the building safety act 2022 and the strengthening of the fire safety regulations the changes made to the policies are um removal of repetition and thus shorting them considerably ensuring the policies reflect current legislation regulation and best practice the removal of references to other council departments and a complete review of the reporting regime uh so we provide reports to enable us to monitor our programs take appropriate actions when necessary and to give assurance at the point of transition it was important important that we had robust reporting with early warning systems in place um we've looked to reduce the reporting through these new policies as the compliance work streams are now operating as business as usual rather than in recovery and that meets much of the reporting now is redundant we can still provide assurance with a high level overview of our compliance position with commentary that would explain any fluctuations in statistics in the statistics and any cause for concern is escalated immediately and dealt with at the time and this would be reflected through the performance reports with an explanation in the commentary are there any questions i'm just going to ask can you clarify how often these policies are reviewed and updated i know that it mentions in the report that they were written in 2020 and that one of them due to legislation changes was updated last year but how often as a as a normal sort of cycle are they being reviewed and updated we review our policies every two to three years and if there is no changes in legislation we would review and rewrite and bring to the table at that point in time i noticed that the senate tenants and leaseholders group have been consulted over these did did they make any comments no any other questions comes as go big i was just going to ask as a follow up would it not be normal for a policy to be updated annually and for any learnings from there or legislation change to be adopted two to three years feels quite a long time particularly with some of these areas you're talking about for example water safety fire safety these things are changing quite often in a business setting for example these policies as a rule of thumb would be reviewed quarterly and updated by management annually so i'm just wondering why the disparity with the council um that i mean that is what we have done since we've come back in house for all of our policies is to review them every two to three years um we do have a regular review of our service which includes our policies if during one of the reviews we did find that a policy wasn't working for us or through a complaints there is a lessons learned that means there's a policy change or of course regulation or legislation needs to change then we would pull it out of its usual cycle and carry out a review of that policy at that time but it's not currently the practice in my department to do that so just to follow up from that then um under 3.4 in the report it says that at the time of transition the council wants a notice from the regulator for social housing due to failings can you give a bit more detail on that for again for somebody relatively new to the council just the background of that comment i didn't understand the context of that so i'll start off and then if i miss anything sally can cover that as well so for those of you that weren't around in 2020 um you know there was a one of the most significant reasons why the decision was taken to disband east kent housing and bring the service back in house was in relation to compliance um and that wasn't just the senate council but it was the other three councils that were involved in east kent housing as well and collectively um we all took the decision pretty much at the same time that that arrangement wasn't working for our residents and particularly in relation to tenant health and safety and statutory compliance um probably the thing that most highlighted it for everybody was failures in gas gas safety um and um well i could only describe misinformation coming from east kent housing about the number of outstanding gas safety certificates across our housing stock and across the housing stock of the other three councils um which is why um that decision was taken but at the same time uh the council also and this obviously this is all documented in the reports that came forward at the time but at the same time the council took the decision to self refer to the regulator um for on the basis that uh we weren't meeting the required standard set it set out the regulations for regulated social landlords um and we went through uh after bringing the service back in house actually Sally and I sat through um i think monthly meetings with the regulator to track our progress on on compliance um and um that was and part of that was the the these put the first iteration of these policies back in 2020 um and um I'm pleased to be able to say that we worked through that process to the satisfaction of the regulator and we put all the policies in place and we've made significant progress on statutory compliance across the uh across the housing stock and obviously the regulator removed the the regulation notice on the council um so some well I think in 2020 either early 2022 or late 21 so um and since that time we've been running the compliance service pretty much as a business as usual arrangement there's there's always things to do in compliance it's just the way these things you know are for every sex um landlord there's always something to do in compliance there's always new risk assessments and risk assessments almost always have some actions attached to them um but what what we can say with confidence now which we couldn't say in 2020 is that we do have those risk assessments in place uh we know what actions are uh flowing from those risk assessments and we know which actions have been delivered and which ones are still to be done and we report on those regularly and you see those reports here on a quarterly basis um so you know there's quite there's there's obviously there's a really long back story to the compliance picture um but I think we can say with confidence that we are in a in a pretty good place now in terms of our um housing statutory compliance position thank you are there any other questions yep I'd just like to make a comment obviously I was no question a question it's sort of a question but I'd just like to thank the housing uh team because I was here so it's maybe it's giving uh council scoby a bit more information and I can say my residents were wholly unhappy with East Kent housing as were members because we weren't listened to and they weren't listened to so I'd just like to thank the housing department for getting the ship back on a even kill and heading in the right direction a great deal of work has been undertaken and I get fewer uh referrals from my residents as a consequence because they're happier and there's greater engagement between TDC staff and actually residents so I think he'd deserve a pat on the back thank you councillor wing i'm sure we all feel that way thank you next item is item seven to establish the overview and scrutiny panel work program for 2024 25 are there any updates from the external grant funding review working party unfortunately councillor leading it's not here um could you um yes I believe we've just um established out at a date for our second meeting following the scoping meeting I'll just check what it is on the calendar there and there's Charles has got it's a sixth sixth of June um so there'll be a second meeting then where we'll be addressing the the items that were identified in the scoping so I hope that's okay with everybody updated on Trisha's behalf um councillor edwards and councillor scoby would like to take part in the grant funding review project just a panel agree that we co-op to councillor edwards and councillor will scoby can I just yep please do it's just that shouldn't be co-op'd it should just be added as members of the group that's just to make it absolutely clear councillor will scoby and councillor edwards and also that councillor manners was previously added to it as a co-op to you so it's best if we just make him a member in the same way that we're adding those two councillors then yeah and just just for my understanding for future working parties would um would you be able to sort of clarify how the chair is chosen because at the last meeting councillor fellows announced that councillor austin would be chairing it by my understanding is the working party or chairs of any committees are chosen at their first meeting um and secondly how does the membership of working parties uh be set obviously there isn't like political balance but i'm assuming it's just set by the committee i wasn't really clear on that and then is there any limit on the number of working parties they're allowed at one time i think at the moment the convention has been to have one at a time and then wait for that one to finish and start is that correct i think the limit is is dependent on the coverage that the democratic services team can handle don't come back on those yeah yeah um yeah so um uh trying to yes it is the the number of excuse me uh the number of working parties is is determined by level of resource that the dem services team has uh currently that is more um i'm not saying that there will be more i've on no no indication there would be more resource to the team but if there was more resource to the team then obviously we'd able to do more um sort of support for meetings um with regards to the membership um there is as you say there is no political balance on a um on a scrutiny review working party um usually we ask for uh volunteers uh at the meeting where the meet uh where the review party is is set up um usually we would say um that it's taken from the membership of the panel first but if there aren't enough people then we could ask people outside of the panel um and they they can join in provided obviously they're not cabinet members because they are prohibited from doing so um and then the cabinet um the the chairmanship of or the chair ship of the um of the working party uh generally can be done either way um so it could be that it's sort of mutually agreed at this uh at the first meeting where we set it up um but uh it could also if it wanted to be if they couldn't decide or we weren't overly fast for want of a better phrase about who the chair was then that we could we could ask that uh that's be added to the first meeting of the of the working party um but i think uh it's something that both Charles and I discussed and it's something we've discussed uh with others uh including the management team is that i think as say this and this is absolutely in no way a criticism of the way that this this working group has been created or all is started but i think it would be just helpful for everybody involved and helpful for the panel um to just sort of firm up the way that we create scrutiny working parties going forward so i think in future uh if there is a uh a working party that suggested and we agree that we should have a working party then this meeting uh say for example this is the first meeting of which we decide to do that we should set up a rough idea of what that panel is going to do and who the membership are that then would be referred to the working party the working party would have a meeting that would solely just concentrate on their terms of reference um they would agree the terms of reference um as we've seen from this working party terms of reference have slightly altered from what was originally planned that's totally okay that's not that's not an issue but if it is um then if it is wanting to change then it should be the panel that decides that it changes not the working party so then we would bring that terms of reference back to this party as to this panel sorry and then we would have a last opportunity for anybody else to then say well yeah i don't agree with that you've changed the terms of reference to that so much that actually i've been devoted for that i wanted something else as the next priority working review um we can sort out the membership and then from that point onwards um that is the terms of reference of the party that is the membership of that working party it doesn't change unless this panel says it should change i think that would be the process moving forwards um we we sort of do that but sort of unofficially at the moment and i think that's just something that we need to tighten up on yeah i agree could you bring that protocol to the next meeting for approval absolutely yeah we can do that and step up and just on that because it you know coming new to over you and scooting and trying to understand where we're working on having listened to the last two meetings i wasn't clear what this working party was working on now you know councilor popers has helped to sort of give that information as to what the terms of reference are but if you're saying that the terms of reference that was informally set down a meeting has changed and that it should be the main panel that agrees that there's nothing in the agenda about that so just i i don't understand it so i think that protocol would be very useful but just to say as a new member cotrona understand what's going on it feels very very complicated i think that's why we want to bring the protocol back to the next meeting definitely today it is well that um we had agreed that members of the working party would bring in the fresh terms of reference and draft terms of reference to this panel and seek the approval of the panel so i was hoping that one of the members could sort of read out those for the panel to to listen in and elaborate councilor daius if i could just and and it's to back nick up and to to perhaps um reassure councilor scoby um the appointment of um councilor roston as chair and so on was agreed by the working group in that meeting so that when we had our first scoping meeting we were able to hit the ground running so there isn't any you know there is no lack of procedure just perhaps a little lack of recording it but it but it was agreed by this panel that councilor roston and who would be on it from there the scoping identify the need for perhaps a broader perspective and that's where that's evolved from so but anyhow do you want me to just read this per se charso um okay i'm going to read what's in front of me it's not necessarily my words but osp working group on grant funding question how do we maximize grant funding coming into fannet the aims of the group are to maximize grant funding coming into fannet through identifying what we're doing or what we have done in the past that has worked well avoiding what are we are doing or have done in the past that hasn't learning from feedback from infrastructure bodies funders and voluntary organizations considering how other comparable authorities work with their voluntary organizations and producing case studies and recommendations to council the proposed terms of reference are to report to focus on smaller grants say up to 250,000 as the suggestion to focus primarily on smaller voluntary sector bidders and how we can support them to ask them and identify what information and skills they have and identify where gaps are to ask town and parish councils infrastructure bodies and funders reference their experience of working with fannet organizations and what may help improve their success rates to outline what has worked what hasn't and how we can tailor support in future for greater impact without overburdening offices or creating significant extra costs the proposed methodology is to meet firstly meet with key tdc officers to discuss how we work with voluntary organizations and to share information uh luise, clive, penny, nickela and natasha have indicated they'd like to engage in that process via google meets or in person as appropriate uh to meet with infrastructure bodies town and parish councils and funding sources again through google meet where appropriate unless face-to-face is available to meet with voluntary organizations and reference their experience and their needs this may lead to be a longer session or an evening meeting and preferably face-to-face uh we need to obtain lists of potential invitees from luise and nickela and the town and parish councils number four is to undertake desk research comparing different councils approaches and that's agreed to be the responsibility of all working group members to do individual research and report back uh number five is to put together case studies for the report again shared responsibility amongst all working group members um what was agreed at our scoping meeting if i can just dive into digress slightly was that we would probably do one live meeting and then one google meets meeting to back up what was agreed at each phase of the the live meetings um and i think jarls you've been discussing with trisha about how these can schedule and fit enough meetings in without overloading um uh pen ultimately is to put together case studies for the report if i may have already said that sorry but with again shared amongst all working group members and finally to compile the ultimate report and recommendations which is all working group members with charles so that we can bring a set of conclusions back to the to the panel we have also identified funding bodies to invite uh sorry infrastructure bodies to invite uh at the moment it suggested that funding for all stronger kent safer communities alliance charity mentors in kent social enterprise kent kent coast volunteering and others as may be recommended by councilors and officers during the identification process thank you champ thank you do we note that uh yeah Councillor scoby again sort of for my understanding coming into this because it's very difficult to follow the chain of thought here literally in minutes for the last meeting it says the chair confirmed and the panel agreed that was it so like that's the first time i'm like hearing those terms that's a huge piece of work i'm not suggesting i don't know enough about this is to know whether that's needed or not but it sounds like you're talking months worth of work there and for me is this coming from a point where there's been an audit report or particular historic issues around this see there is fair enough but if i look at some of the issues the council dealing with at the moment like poverty and then it or homelessness and the potential impact or all five sort of priorities in the corporate plan you know the decision has been taken so i guess it's it's sort of you know and the group has met but that is a huge piece of work you're talking about case studies review of other bodies you know interviewing voluntary sector interviewing council officers that's a huge piece of work and feels like it's grown substantially from one line on the minutes at the last meeting to now being a committee covering you know a large piece of work and is that really what this panel wants the working party to be doing i don't know i mean i'd like to comment on some of the background i mean it's not it's not it's i have two connections to grant funding one was my work with chardon and the other one is Ellington Park where i was actually asked to provide feedback on the success of the grant and it was i think over a million 1.4 million i think it was a 1.6 there were three attempts to get that grant application in and i i in my feedback my hour long feedback with the it was heritage funding i think i actually stated that i felt fan it was losing out on grant applications in comparison to other sections of Kent indeed chardon have been approached to specifically put grants in so that certain charities could funnel money into into Kent to make sure that that we were we were receiving grant funding and uh one of the one of the statements i got back is that if you compared somebody like some a place like Royal Tumbridge with fan it then we are way down the list of smaller grants coming into fan it and i think addressing the poverty issue is directly related to this because i think if we can identify the need and the desire then we stand a good chance of bringing more funding into some of our volunteer sector sectors and as a consequence adding vital services to our community indeed chart more invited and they've been invited again so we're now on the i'm not no longer the chart but we're now on our four fourth phase of children need funding or chart now which is absolutely unheard of and it's to keep that provision in fan it because they are they recognize is there is a desperate need and we're not actually getting the funding we need so i think this is a really important thing for us to look at yeah i think it's an important thing to look at but if the panel feels that the terms of reference are taking it beyond what they expected then i assume we can bring it back here and review it and i would propose that we do that i would i would point out that the terms of reference and i understand the concern about the scope however it was quite clear from our scoping meeting how broad the issues were and how they were you know and how this was a substantial undertaking i would however remind all that that was the working party that were prepared to take it on identified what they were happy to do so i don't see why there should be any issues so i was there's not an issue with office at time or anything um those who are already on that party are happy with what we've committed to do if anybody's got an issue with doing that that's their issue not the parties thank you yeah um i think it's very helpful to have heard the um you know what's planned from the working party out loud here but i think um it would be much more helpful to have it as part of the agenda perhaps the next meeting just so we could consider it and if we've don't find any issues we can just note it but i think it's more appropriate for us as a panel to actually see everything written down it does feel that there is a little bit of scope creep but i'm just hearing it now so i'm not able to look at it in detail so i think it would be possibly a few of that's what you're already proposing to add it to the next agenda with it in the pack as well that would be helpful for us to consider it fully i'll propose that then yes sorry i would suggest in that the scoping work then comes before the full panel before we progress in principle i'm all for that and because we fight you know understand on a transparency ticket my only concern is and how that affects Charles's work that he's done with the chair um we are on a fairly limited projected time frame on this and doing that would put it back beyond the scope that we've agreed where we were looking to bring the final reports back by the end of July if i'm not mistaken yeah it was end of July for for the right up of the report and then to be presented to the panel at the august meeting so um it meant we had arranged just one one meeting for the sixth of june which i believe we can do away with so that the panel can consider these draft terms of reference on the and they are meeting on the 18th of june yeah i say i think at the very worst of that it's going to be pushed back the final deadline would be pushed back by four weeks which in council terms is not very far if it's only four weeks then i'll withdraw that or you know but obviously you understand the concern okay can i suggest a bit of a compromise then because i think if as as councilor davis sort of said if the panel agreed to take on this work and stuff's already progressing i don't think we want to stop that enthusiasm and i i take the point that councilor wing and i was upset about the importance of this for me i just want to make sure that this doesn't become massive and gets delayed because we're waiting for interviews so maybe we could you know i'm i'm suggesting that maybe we agree the terms of reference as outlined by councilor davis but we put a deadline for a report to come back at the latest by end of september which means that it gives them an opportunity to do this work if august is when we're looking at it gives a little bit of slip if somebody isn't available but make sure that this panel has the opportunity to potentially do another working party later in this year and to consider other issues you just don't want mission creep to also become deadline keep keep on being pushed back because you want to gather more information i'm sorry i thought i thought charles has already been had already described a timetable for this if if if we approve it now there's already a timetable worked out is that correct that is correct but i think councilor scobe is saying if the compromise is that you agree the terms of reference as read out by councilor davis and then that would certainly mean might mean pushing back the time when we will bring the report back to the panel to the september meeting i think that's what he said thank you chair i completely object to any any attempt to set a definitive timeline at the moment other than that the democratically agreed timeframe that the panel agreed to work to again those doing the work of a looked at this and agreed what we're going to do um i understand councilor scobe has got other areas of concern that he'd like to bring on will the points scoring matrix as we progress through the working year will determine how that comes forward and that's what the matrix is for and i think to start judging what's happening here with the potential scope and impacts of this would be wrong so um i think we just need to carry on down the path we've already you know set chair point of personal explanation on that as as a point of personal explanation that's been proposed and seconded to refer this the scope as read out to the next meeting all those in favor yeah as a point of personal explanation under the constitution i get to respond to a comment made not in the middle of the vote i don't think that's carried personal explanation you're okay you we've also got a list of office of reports that we've asked for from officers that is one in particular which is um to be updated regularly about external funding for the regeneration projects now we've asked for this a number of times and it hasn't happened now is there a reason for that i don't know if you would you like me to comment on that chair yeah please yes please do sorry yeah i mean the first thing i'd say is that we um bought two very detailed reports on the program um one at the end of last year one early this year it providing quite a lot of detail about the progress of the regeneration projects across both the Margate and the Ramsgate programs and um and that was precursors to decisions that within subsequently made it cabinet and secondly we also gave commitment that we would bring detailed reports of all the projects that would progress through the regeneration program as they were ready to do that and we still we will still do that and that's a commitment that we've we've given um we are also working on new project management arrangements and i think some of you certainly were present at the briefing we gave um last week about our proposals for project management which i hope you agree will make a significant difference to the way projects have managed across the council um including those in the regeneration program as well as well as others and see there's probably of equal significance and equal cost is the housing program that's covered by that piece of work as well um and one of the things that we talked about in that briefing was the need to introduce um a new reporting mechanism across the program so that you can be alerted to project significant projects that arise by the delivering on on time or falling behind their program or whatever the issues are um i i think our view at this point is that you'd need a bit more than just a red apple green rating on projects and you'll need some um commentary on on how we're delivering against each of those key projects what what we can't do i don't think is provide you with regular updates on everything that we're doing that falls into the heading of project management um you know that would just be far too much for the officers to be able to resource um but we can commit to do that on other significant projects of of particular interest um as part of the project management framework and we talked about this corporate management team today um we're developing a size assessment tool for project managers to assess the impact of their projects looking at a number of different things so firstly the level of expenditure um we've already got a mechanism where everything that's a key decision so everything over 250 000 has to come here has to go to cabinet at some stage on its in its project lifestyle to get um life cycle to um get approval to spend that and commit that resource um but also in addition to looking at project cost we want to look at the level of risk and align the um risk management in project management to the council's risk management framework um and identify those projects which present a high level of risk to the council um and in addition to that take a view about how projects contribute either to the court the the agreed corporate plan uh or impact on our communities um or um there was another criteria we included which has just escaped my mind for a moment um so but that that that mechanism really is that it's a way for us to identify the projects that we think that are um of most importance to you as a committee and to cabinet and to other members to to get updates on and we'll be working on that through our new service planning process which is happening over the next few months and flows from the agreed corporate plan so um so I think there's a lot of work being done in this area obviously I know the officers leading on the regeneration program have been here a number of times and talk through all of the projects that they're working on and before we commit expenditure on any projects that are above those spending um thresholds then there'll be opportunity to talk through those in detail here as well so hopefully that gives the panel some reassurance that we are working on that and you know it is certainly our intention to keep us up to date as we possibly can on the program it just certainly reassures me that's a very comprehensive answer um so others you recognize that this body is meant to scrutinize the activities that's fine nice anybody else wishes to come in just one very quick comment thank you chair and it's just again just to highlight and remind that historically we seem to be not particularly good at retrospective scrutiny and we don't indulge in free scrutiny um which is highly recommended in government guidelines so the more we can be involved in the development of projects and everything then you know um but again I'm not kind of preach to the converted or thank you do members have any other questions to ask about the work program cancer scabby it just just um a suggestion checks I think we've got um the opportunity to invite cabinet members to future meetings yes and I was just going to suggest that as it's been a year since the implementation of the new corporate plan and the new leadership of council that whether it might be a good moment to invite the leader to come to over the dune or july meeting to present progress on the corporate plan and the five priorities is that a proposal it can be is that second did second did it is a proposal oh there could I I mean I think this relates to our work program but it relates to the way we work in relation to our work program so I know Ingrid had sent us an update on the government guidance on overview and scrutiny I in my email back to her I said it might be useful for overview and scrutiny to have an updated training session on those changes or or any anything of significance in that government report which very often doesn't use layman's terms to make us have a bit of understanding about what our role is here we've got recent updates in licensing and planning that have been very useful so I wondered if that was possible in the future I've members got an appetite for training no go ahead whether you've got an appetite for it or not we're running a session on the uh 24th of july which is part of the member training program that came out to all members uh very end of last week um and uh that will be run as an in-house thing and that's one of the things we'll we'll cover at that session absolutely that closes the meeting thank you [inaudible] what's this another last meeting? one will be initially on the side of them yeah sorry yeah I should say yes there's two days that will come on which one should have got an email or a tree not enough for scrutiny so do you have a look at what they're doing there? You still good, eh? [BLANK_AUDIO]
Summary
The meeting primarily focused on the Youth Council and Youth Provision in Thanet, as well as the maintenance dredging at the Port of Ramsgate. Several procedural items were also addressed, including apologies for absence, declarations of interest, and the approval of previous meeting minutes.
The most significant topic discussed was the presentation by Councillor Keene on the Youth Council and Youth Provision in Thanet. Councillor Keene highlighted the successes of the Youth Council, established in November 2022, and its role in engaging young people. She emphasized the importance of the knife crime awareness program, which has been delivered in nine schools and colleges. The program includes knife amnesty bins, which have collected over a thousand knives. A sculpture made from these knives is planned to be displayed in a local art gallery. The Youth Council, which meets monthly, is youth-led and focuses on community safety and safe spaces for young people. Initiatives like the Ellington Park Youth Cafe and the Park Life events were also discussed as part of the youth engagement strategy.
Councillor Keene also mentioned the challenges in maintaining consistent participation in the Youth Council due to the varying ages and commitments of the members. The Youth Council has a small budget of £1,000 to manage projects, and there is an ongoing effort to increase its membership and engagement through social media and school forums.
The second significant topic was the maintenance dredging at the Port of Ramsgate, presented by Mike. The proposed dredging plan for this financial year has an estimated value of £362,000, with a total budget requirement of £477,000. The plan includes a one-off general fund revenue budget to cover a £152,000 shortfall. The dredging will focus on the port turning circle, port entrance, harbour entrance, and the approach to Berth 4.5. The method used will be hydro-dynamic dredging, which has proven to be more cost-effective than mechanical methods. Environmental monitoring will be conducted to mitigate adverse effects on nearby receptors. The dredging is crucial to maintain an acceptable depth of water in the port and ensure safe vessel access.
Other procedural items included:
- Apologies for absence from Councillors Fellows, Austin (substituted by Councillor Garner), Moore (substituted by Councillor Wright), and Currie.
- Approval of the minutes from the previous meeting held on April 16, 2024.
- No declarations of interest were made.
- No requests for public speaking or filming of the meeting.
The meeting also touched on the need for regular updates on external funding for regeneration projects, with officers committing to provide detailed reports on significant projects. The panel discussed the establishment of the overview and scrutiny panel work program for 2024-25, including updates from the external grant funding review working party. The terms of reference for the grant funding review were read out, and it was agreed to bring them back to the next meeting for approval.
Finally, the panel proposed inviting the leader to a future meeting to present progress on the corporate plan and the five priorities, and there was a suggestion for an updated training session on the Government guidance on overview and scrutiny. The meeting discussed several significant topics, primarily focusing on youth engagement and safety initiatives, as well as the maintenance dredging at the Port of Ramsgate. Additionally, the panel reviewed policies related to tenant and leaseholder services and discussed the work program for the upcoming year.
The most significant topic was the extensive discussion on youth engagement and safety initiatives. Kent College plans to create a sculpture from confiscated knives, which will be displayed locally to promote a positive message about knife crime. The Thanet Youth Council, established in November 2022, was highlighted as a key platform for young people to engage with the council. Tracy Moon oversees the Youth Council, which is youth-led, focusing on issues like community safety and safe spaces. The Youth Council has designed its own logo and is working on publicizing its activities through social media. Events like Park Life and the Ellington Park Youth Cafe were mentioned as multi-agency initiatives aimed at engaging young people and providing safe spaces. The council also runs educational programs like the ladder of risk
to help young people understand and manage risky situations. The importance of involving young people in council activities and decision-making was emphasized, with suggestions to allocate a small budget for youth-led projects and to survey young people about council services.
The second major topic was the maintenance dredging at the Port of Ramsgate. The council plans to undertake a single dredging campaign costing £362,000, with a total budget of £477,000 for the year. The dredging is necessary to maintain an acceptable depth of water in the port, ensuring safe access for vessels. The method used will be hydro dynamic dredging, which is more cost-effective than mechanical methods. The dredging will focus on the port turning circle, the port entrance, the harbour entrance, and the approach to Berth 4.5. The council has a contractual obligation to provide access to Berth 4.5 for Brett aggregate site vessels. Environmental monitoring will be conducted to mitigate adverse effects on nearby biodiversity-rich sites. The dredging is planned for June and will take two to three weeks to complete.
The panel also reviewed and updated several policies related to tenant and leaseholder services, including gas safety, electrical safety, passenger lifts, water hygiene, and asbestos. These policies were initially adopted in October 2020 and have been revised to reflect current legislation and best practices. The review aimed to remove redundant reporting and ensure the policies are still effective.
Finally, the panel discussed the work program for the upcoming year, including the ongoing external grant funding review working party. The terms of reference for this working party were read out, focusing on maximizing grant funding for smaller voluntary sector bidders. The panel agreed to review these terms at the next meeting. Additionally, the panel proposed inviting the council leader to present progress on the corporate plan and the five priorities at a future meeting. Training on the updated government guidance on overview and scrutiny was also suggested and scheduled for July 24th.
Documents
- Annex 5 - Overview Scrutiny Panel TORs - Google Docs
- DoI advice
- Agenda frontsheet 21st-May-2024 19.00 Overview Scrutiny Panel agenda
- 20240521 Report to OSP - Maintenance Dredging - Google Docs
- Annex 2 - Scrutiny Review Scoring Matrix Notes - Google Docs
- 20240521 Appendix A - Maintenance Dredging OSP Report - Google Docs
- OSP MAY24Approval for 5 x TLS compliance policies - Google Docs
- Annex 1 - V2 Water Hygiene Policy Jan 24
- Annex 2 V2 Asbestos policy Jan 24
- Annex 3 V2 Electrical Inspection and Testing Policy Jan 24
- Annex 1 - OSP Work Programme 2024-25 - Google Docs
- Annex 4 V2 Gas Safety Policy Jan 24
- Annex 4 Forward Plan and Exempt Cabinet Report List for Period 08 May 2024 - 31 October 2024
- Annex5 - FormattedversionDraftV2LiftsafetyPolicyJan24GoogleDocs
- Annex 3 - Scrutiny Review Topics Scoring table - Google Docs
- Minutes 16042024 Overview Scrutiny Panel
- Public minutes 21st-May-2024 19.00 Overview Scrutiny Panel minutes
- Youth Projects Community Team .pptx
- Public reports pack 21st-May-2024 19.00 Overview Scrutiny Panel reports pack
- Establish the Overview Scrutiny Panel Work Programme for 2024-25 - Google Docs