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Agenda
February 12, 2025 View on council website Watch video of meetingTranscript
Thank you. And the meeting is now live. Hello, everyone, and welcome to this licensing subcommittee of the 12th of February. So, the first item that we need to go through is the appointment of the chair, because the actual chair can't be present this evening. So, it's proposed that Council of French chairs this meeting, and I'd like to ask the subcommittee if they're happy with that. Yes, all good with me? Yeah, happy. Excellent. Okay. So, before we move on to the actual item itself, I did circulate earlier on a late submission from the applicant to do with the refuse waste collection services. And I just want to check if we have everyone's agreement to include that as part of the application, as part of the hearing. Yes. Is that okay? Yes. Yeah, happy with me. Okay, brilliant. Okay. So, chair, when you're ready, over to you. Oh, sorry, Rebecca. Sorry, Guy. Miss Yeldon, I think, has something to say. Sorry, Miss Yeldon. No, not to worry. I did have a quick question about it in my response email. Was, is this relevant to planning or was it relevant to licensing? Because I think previously when we submitted our response, we were under the understanding it was a planning decision, not a licensing decision. And therefore, is it appropriate to discuss in this meeting? Sure. So, I'm sure Miss Hopkins will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's going to be picked up as part of Miss Hopkins' introduction to the application. Perfect. Thank you very much. No worries. So, chair, whenever you're ready, over to you. Thank you. Good evening, everyone. Welcome to this meeting of the licensing subcommittee, which is being held as a remote meeting. The meeting is being webcast, and please bear with us if there are any technical issues. My name is Councillor French, and I'm chairing this meeting. I will now invite other attendees to introduce themselves in the following order. Are councillors, officers, applicant, representations. Thank you. Councillor Lawless, do you want to... Hello, I'm Sean Lawless, councillor for Tooting Broadway. Hello, I'm Ethan Brooks, councillor for Thamesfield Ward in Putney. Officers? Yes, hello. I'm Guy Bishop, solicitor for South London Legal Partnership, part of the shared legal service, and I'm the legal advisor to the subcommittee for tonight's hearing. My name is Julie Hopkins, and I am the lead licensing officer. I am Becky Hickey. I am a democratic services officer and clerk for this hearing. And my name is Michael Flowers, democratic service officer, acting as the webcaster for this meeting, and supporting officer for democratic services. Thank you, officers. Over to the applicant. My name is Mohamed Malik, and I'm the agent acting on behalf of the applicant. Thank you. Over to representations, please. Hi, Belinda Gildan, one of the representations, and... And Thomas Southwell, also resident. Thank you, both. Hi, I'm councillor Anna-Marie Critchard. I'm making representations as well, and I am one of the local councillors who represent residents in the ward in which the application is at the moment, which is Tooting Beck Ward. Thank you. So, going ahead with the meeting agenda items one and two. Are there any apologies for absence or declarations of interest for any items on the agenda? Okay, no. Thank you. Moving swiftly on. We will now consider the application for a new premises licence in respect of the premises known as Butkarahi, 26A to 26B, Upper Tooting Road, London, SW17, 7PG. And I now invite the licensing officer, Miss Hopkins, to introduce the application. Thank you. Thank you, councillor. This is an application for a new late-night refreshment licence. Tooting, Karahi and Company Limited have applied for a new premises licence for the premises known as Butkarahi at 26A to 26B, Upper Tooting Road, SW17, 7PG. The applicant has applied for late-night refreshment for takeaway only between the hours of 11pm and 2am Monday to Sundays, with opening times of 8am to 2pm Monday to Sundays. The hours sought are within the Council's Statement of Licensing Policy Guideline hours for late-night refreshment premises within Wandsworth. The application was advertised as required under the legislation, and this has resulted in the receipt of two representations from other persons. No representations were received from any of the other responsible authorities. However, the Council's planning team did submit comments on the application with regards to planning. As per the committee report, planning and licence are separate regimes, so both have different objectives, so must be decided separately. However, since the publication of the report, the applicant submitted an email today to both licensing and democratic services teams, confirming that a formal application has now been submitted to the planning team for a change of use to Class E restaurant. The applicant has also confirmed that they now have a refuse collection contract, who will collect their refuse from inside the premises daily, with no refuse being kept outside the premises. And the applicant has actually requested this be noted in the minutes. The other person's representations are, therefore, the only matters of consideration tonight. The question that Ms Yeldon asked about whether this is a planning or a licensing issue with regards to refuse, it would come under public nuisance, which is one of the four licensing objectives. So, it is relevant to the Licensing Act, and we have had many licences with conditions regarding to refuse. So, I hope that clears up that query. Councillors, I have no further matters to raise in respect of the application, but I'm happy to answer any questions that you may have. Thank you. Thank you, Ms Hopkins. Does the subcommittee have any questions for the Licensing Officer? Councillor Brooks. Thank you, Councillor French. Yeah, so, thank you for that initial introduction. In the comments from the planning team, they said that this would require change of use through planning, but I'm given to believe the business is already open and operating. Is that normal to begin operation before you've got the change of use in place? It does happen. In an ideal world, they would apply for planning first and then apply for licensing. They're two separate legislations, as we've previously discussed. They have now retrospectively put in an application for a change of use, but if the licence was granted tonight, they would still need to adhere to any planning restrictions. I don't know if Guy would like to add anything else on that. I was going to let Mr Malik speak first before I say anything, because I suspect he's got something to say about that. Oh, right. Okay. Yes, hello, Mr Malik. Hi, just on to Mr Brooks' question about opening without planning. So, what it was, originally, before my client took on the business, it was two premises. One was a takeaway, and the other was a betting shop. So, when my client took on the business, he thought, since it was a takeaway, he's already operating as a food business. So, he had the assumption that we could continue operating as a food business, but he wasn't aware of the planning change of use policies around change of use. So, he thought, from his understanding, it's a food business already, and we're just opening another food business. So, that's why he continued. But, obviously, enforcement got involved, told them, no, look, that was Sue Generous Takeaway, and there's a Sue Generous Betting Shop, and you did a change of use to Classy Restaurant. So, that's where the retrospective application has gone in. In terms of the canopy and the extraction, that's all existing from the existing takeaway. So, all they've done is just internal fitter, refurbishment. Everything else has been kept the same. So, the application is in at the moment, which reflects a change of use, just a material change of use, and which also highlights the refuse collection issues as well, which has been addressing the planning. And, as Mrs. Hopkins has said, I've also included the documentations with this application. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Malik. And Mr. Bishop? Yes, Councillor. It's very simple. Matters of planning are matters for the planning authority. Matters under the Licensing Act are literally to look at the licensing objectives and those sort of issues. Hopefully, the planning issues will be addressed, and that will be something for that side of the things, not for this committee necessarily to consider. So, sure. Thank you. Thank you. Are there any other questions for our licensing officer, Ms. Hopkins? Are there any other questions or clarifications on anything that's been stated? As a reminder, both the applicant and representations will have a chance to address the subcommittee, and this should only be where you'd like qualifications or something stated by the speaker. Ms. Yellund. I see your hand written, please. I should. The question or response, it's in our wider response, but you stated, and I think you stated in the letter, that a notice was put on the establishment during the period. We have significant evidence that indicates that that was not the case, and I wonder if the council have anything that demonstrates that that was adhered to. Yes, we do. We have photographic evidence that the notice was up. Are you able to provide that to us? Because I think the evidence that we took during the early weeks of January indicates that that wasn't the case. I'm not sure that we can provide that, can we, Guy? You could. So, the officers do check it. I mean, I think the point, sorry, councillor, the point here is that it's down to the officers to check that the statutory notices are in place. The officers have checked that, and they are content that they have been in place. Otherwise, we wouldn't be at this meeting. OK, we'll address it in our further follow-up, I think. Sure. Thank you. OK. I now invite the applicant to address the subcommittee, and you will have five minutes to speak, after which questions may be asked of you. Mr Malik, over to you. Thank you very much. So, just going back on, obviously, we kind of highlighted the main issues, and looking at the comments made by Ms Yeldon and Councillor Richard, the main issue they're coming across with is the nuisance and, obviously, refuse and parking and all that kind of stuff. But from my experience and all the applications we've done, these are the common kind of objections we get all the time. But my question to all the councillors and the committee members always is, do these relate to our client's business? Because sometimes these issues can be caused by other businesses, but then our client or our client's business suffers the consequences. Yes, we put our hand up to the refuse issue, and, like I said, we've resolved that. Obviously, the client was not informed well by Biff at the collection company. They said, oh, we work with the council and you can put your bins outside. So, he obviously didn't know much, so he put them outside. But he's had to pay the consequences of that, pay the fines. But now he's got two companies employed to do the refuse collection. Two, because just in case one doesn't turn up, he's also got a backup. So, he's happy he spent the money. He's got the collections, they're literally collection of them every day, twice a day, morning and evening. So, obviously, the refuse side is being resolved. And secondly, in terms of nuisance and people congregating outside, I must point out, this is a restaurant and people obviously go in, they're going to be sitting at the table and they're going to be spending at least an hour, hour and a half eating. So, it's not like a takeaway. You go in, you take your food outside and you stand outside and eat or eat on the streets or just eat in your car. So, this is something that people will come, they'll park their car sensibly, sleep appropriately and then go inside with their family, eat, spend at least an hour inside and then leave. So, it's not something that we go in and out quickly. So, that will obviously, that eliminates the nuisance kind of issue because, like I said, you're going in, you're sitting down, you're eating. And other comments were, I think those are the main ones that were raised really. But yeah, like I said, if there are issues caused by other businesses, I would like to just, people, I would just like to point out that you should make a decision based on if all those problems are coming from my client's business rather than from other people's business and we are being in the blame for them. Like you said, Ms. Hopkins, that none of the police or any of the authorities have made any objections, which clearly shows that our business is not causing any problems. If there were any objections from police or from any of the departments, then obviously we could say, okay, we'll action them appropriately. But like I said, there has been nothing from anyone. Obviously, planning has raised an objection. We will address that. Refuse the problem. We will address that. Any other issues, we're happy to work with the council. So if there are any problems or any issues further down the line or at this moment in time, we're happy to address that. My client will take all the proper actions needed. Thank you. I think you're on mute, Katrina. Still. Still on mute. Mute. Oh, gosh. I think I'm being far too not heavy-handed. I'm really pressing. I was not working. Apologies for that. Thank you, Mr. Malik. And thank you, councillors, for noting that. Does anyone have any questions from the subcommittee for the applicant at the moment? Thank you, Councillor Lawless. Thank you. And thank you for that, Mr. Malik. Can I ask a question around the comment you made there around people will be sitting indoors? So the application to open until 2 a.m. is for takeaways only, I understand. So what would the policy be around that? And in terms of dispersal and making sure that people are leaving or arriving in a manner that's not causing a public nuisance, can you talk to us about your plans around that, please? The proposal, I think, ideally is supposed to be for eating anyway. So I think the idea may be because I think the client or someone who got the submitted application at that time by put on take it, but the intention is for eating only. And in terms of dispersal and make sure people leave quietly and appropriately, obviously, remember, staff will be standing outside if the shop is too busy. They'll obviously be told to leave or they'll be told to wait inside rather than standing outside on the streets and talking. And when they do leave, obviously, the staff will make sure that obviously, no, people are not talking outside on the streets too late at late night and just make sure they leave straight to the car and go home rather than hanging around the building outside. Sorry, just for clarification, councillor. The application is for both indoors and outdoors. So effectively, it would be sitting, eating, but also it could be takeaways. But if the applicant is explaining, Mr Malik, if you're explaining that you're changing it to just indoors, then just if you could clarify that, that would be helpful. Yes, it would be just indoors eating, yes. So just for my understanding, that means if I come in at 12 o'clock, I won't be able to have a takeaway. Well, under, actually, another class E restaurant, you're allowed to set a percentage of takeaway. So obviously, the main, it'll be just like a little bit of takeaway, but the main intention is to eat in only. I know what the main intention is, but I'm just a bit confused as to, would that mean because Councillor Lawless said that he was under the impression that it was takeaway only. Then Mr Bishop said that actually the application allows for both was my understanding. People could take away and people could eat in. You had, before Mr Mallet, I'm sorry, yeah, take away, yeah. That they would be just eating in. So just for clarity, what is the position that you intend to put forward today that people would be able to take away between the hours of, is it 11 and 2? I've seen the application. Are you saying there will not be takeaway between hours of 11 and 2? It would probably be 10% takeaway and about 90% eating in. So there would be takeaway and you do collections as well? Yes, collections as well, yeah. The collections, somebody coming in, collecting and taking home or deliveries by moped or what it may be from the premises to a residential property as well as sit-in. Yes. So all three. Okay, fine. Thank you for that clarity. Councillor Brooks, I saw you have your hand up. It's gone down. I don't know if that was a legacy hand up. I think it got covered just then. Thank you. Okay, then any other questions, councillors on the subcommittee for the applicant at this moment? No, I had the question same as councillor all this, but I think that's been clarified now. Sorry, I'm just going to my notes. So any other questions or clarification that has to be stated at this moment? As a reminder, the representations will have a chance to address the committee and this should only be where you would like clarification on something that has been stated by the speaker. I will now invite those making representations to address the subcommittee and you will have five minutes to speak after which questions may be asked to you. I'll start with Miss Yeldon and the young man with her over to you both and then I'll come to your council. Perfect. Thank you very much. We have a couple of things that we would like to say. I think there's three things before we get into the detail of the application that we would like to raise at this stage. I think first and foremost is the inadequacy of the application really to have any meaningful detail. In terms of public safety, there's no detail on things like risk assessment, security measures, capacity management, so that's quite challenging for residents to be able to comment on that properly. I think same with the public nuisance. There's nothing on customer dispersal, there's nothing on vehicle management, cloud control, litter management, staff training, risk of vermin, monitoring procedures. The protection from children's section is entirely blank. I think what's concerning about that is the fact that it's really hard to know if they understand for establishment their responsibilities under the licensing act. It's hard to know if they have the necessary procedures in place and can effectively manage a late-night licence and will continue to uphold those objectives. I'm a bit surprised in all honesty as a public servant that this has reached the committee stage without having any more robustness asked as part of the application process. It makes me question if the council's fulfilling its duty to be able to properly scrutinise applications around this sort of thing. I think the second one is about the consultation process. I think we might have two different sides to this but we do not believe based on the number of times we walked past that proper notice was displayed in the window so we'd really like some confirmation of that. And I think the fact that there's a disconnect between the planting and licensing, while we understand that they're separate regimes, I think the fact that you have to make one decision without the other is quite tricky in the fact that it's not... You seem to be having some technical difficulties. Am I the only one? Sorry, you've just lost me, I was there. I think the trick in that is the fact that there's no opportunity for them to, for a decision to be made with all of the information available which makes it quite a tricky decision. I think if we move on to the actual application at hand and then the council suggestions, I think we're very worried about the real issues that affect residents on this road. So the groups of customers congregating and blocking access both on Fircroft Road so you have to walk out onto the road which doesn't feel particularly safe. The number of people who kind of congregate on the streets in the middle of the night on numerous occasions we've had no choice but call the police. Other residents have had to come out of their houses, there's been shouting, screaming in the streets and then also just meaningful measures in there to protect kind of the residential status of the area. This is Tooting Beck, it's very different to Tooting Broadway where there's many more bars and establishments and I think there's a worry here about the hours creeping later and later and later. So under the previous administration, places like the Weechee closed on weekdays at half past eleven at night, the Royal Mahal is midnight on weekdays. This is a two o'clock in the morning, establishment all throughout the week which is incredibly late for a residential area and there's been very little consultation on what that means from a broader policy shift. So why is there a need for such late hours? Why is it two o'clock and not midnight? And what would be that assessment completed by the council on that cumulative impact on residents? Similar again, there's a lot of police incidents in the area around antithetical behaviour and violence that feels particularly unsafe and it's not clear to me if the council have completed any assessment into that and a new late licence will only compound some of these issues from our beliefs. It seems really tricky here because I think based on what's been assessed and the information that's been provided to us, it's really hard to tell if the council is taking those statutory duties seriously because they haven't been able to respond in a way that has said what they have assessed and also the promises that they've made all at this moment in time seem quite unenforceable so we don't know how the dispersal policy will be monitored, we don't know how vehicle nuisance will be controlled, we're not sure what will happen if there's a breach, there's many other establishments in this area doing similar and having similar requirements, yep. As a residential area at two o'clock in the morning, I think there's a big question on do people need to be able to eat at 2am in an establishment both in and out and then it's just also recognising that the council doesn't appear to fully being able to assess either through limited information or not asking for more information about public safety, protecting children from harm and public nuisance. So I think our major concern here is there hasn't necessarily been opportunity for proper consultation but doesn't seem to be clear analysis this and also we're worried that there's limited justification for why the council has come back with the decision that it sent to us on the 4th of February or the recommendation it sent to us on the 4th of February and I think we just want to make sure that the council has really thought about establishments already in the area understood about the cumulative impact which seems to kind of be a speed walking by adding more and more establishments to this later night economy without any consultation on what that might mean and then also just really thinking about how do we make sure that applications are adequate because as it stands it's been very very hard as a resident to be able to assess what the implications might be because the application is one line two lines maybe no lines at best and all of the things that the council have a duty to have regard to so I think our main aim is really to get to a point where we don't have a two o'clock in the morning establishment it's very very late and I think from a residential neighbourhood just not really appropriate but there's also many steps along the way where it doesn't feel like the council has fully looked into this in proper detail and that is concerning I think as a resident thank you for that representation Miss Yeldon now I can see that Mr Bishop and Mr Flowers have their hands up in response I don't know if it's appropriate now to hear from Councillor Critchard or for you to respond to the representations that have been made Mr Bishop maybe Mr Flowers might want to go first okay Mr Flowers thank you Chair it was just to suggest that it might be beneficial for the licensing officer just to go into a bit more detail about the consultation period and what the requirements are in terms of the applicant's responsibilities because from previous licensing meetings I do understand that it can be confusing in terms of what is required and what isn't and it might be then that Miss Yeldon can explain a bit more if anything the licensing officer said she doesn't think was done because I think that's quite a key point that's been raised so if I could go over to Miss Hopkins perhaps to explain a bit more about the consultation process from the licensing perspective thank you Mr Bishop Hafter thank you it's a 28 day consultation period one of our officers went down there on the 19th of December and took photographs of the notice in situ at the premises the other thing that applicants have to do is they have to put a newspaper advert in and we check that and that was complied with those are the only two things that they're legally required to do so and if it's not done then it's not a valid application but as far as we're aware it was advertised correctly yeah that's sorry councillor you've got your yeah just to say what newspaper was it advertised in when we say it has to be put in the newspaper where we have three it was it was in the south london weekly we have roughly about three newspapers that we advise people to put it in so it could be either be the wandsworth times the south london press or the south london weekly so that was it was in the south london weekly on the 20th of december 2024 fall okay thank you and is it just for that one one well it's just for once yeah once okay thank you and i can see miss yeldon you have some responses mr bishop i will come to you but as this is a ping pong let's go back to the representations from miss yeldon thank you and in terms of the time it meant to be in the window for is that meant to be for the 28 day period as well yes it was supposed to be up there till the 15th of January 2020 and i think that's the concern we have that photographic evidence we have from about the 31st of December when we became aware of this establishment and the licensing we have evidence that indicates it wasn't in the window for at least a two week period of that so that's not having it when people return in the new year potentially means that residents did not have the opportunity to be able to engage with it I'm also not sure what window it would have been on so if there's any clarification on that because two of the windows were blocked very heavily by refuge for that period of time well the photos quite clearly shows the notice in the window we don't but it's resulted in your representation and Councillor Critchard unfortunately it didn't result in our representation we proactively contacted the council so we didn't see a notice in the window we proactively contacted based on some concerns so I think this is your not because of a notice in the window which is a legal requirement I understand under regulation 25 of the licensing act 2003 I have no answer for that guy you're here now so we're discussing the application you're here now we're having hearing about the application that you've obviously seen the notice or at some stage or you've got your representation in whether you saw the notice on the council's website whichever way it happened we're having hearing on it now we are but that doesn't stop all the other people should have okay that's fine the statutory requirements are complied with as far as the licensing officer is concerned we note your comment that you don't think that has been fully complied with but we're having a hearing here today about the application because there are representations against it and the committee will sit and make a decision about that thank you I just would like to say so I was on pause if we could just for a point of order not speak over one another I don't want to have to be the chair that says everything to go through the chair and I understand that this can be quite a motive from people providing representations but just for respectfully and for the process if we could just allow people to answer questions and then you know speak through the chair appreciate it Mr Bishop does that yeah so I was just going to address some of the other points Miss Yelder's made simply from the point of view of clarification legal advice if you want to call it that I understand completely your view in terms of the dichotomy between planning and licensing the whole point of that dichotomy is to allow flexibility and there's a very extensive case law on it which basically says ultimately that planning stays in planning licensing stays in licensing and that anything that needs to be dealt with by the enforcement side of planning has to be dealt with by the enforcement side of planning okay so if you want to you can obviously pursue that with the planning or enforcement team council but obviously the whole point of the different applications being made is that you don't have to have this thing of one application then another and that's why you can make an application and have grant possibly of something that you may not have planning permission for but you might get it in due course or vice versa it's just the way the legislation works and the way the case law works and there's two different cases there Blackwood and Summerfield which would both apply in those circumstances so that's the planning the planning side was it that you mentioned yeah the I understand your point in relation to the nature of the application and your request for extensive more detail but obviously the client sorry the applicant has to comply with the application form and the operating schedule and that's what we have to look at as a licensing subcommittee the use of conditions is also something we look at very carefully and the licensing subcommittee when it makes its decision will consider whether further conditions need to be imposed if it feels they should yes in terms of the dispersal policy obviously if the application is granted it would be down to licensing enforcement officers to investigate and work out whether that dispersal policy is properly in place and properly being enforced and can be enforced by them I think that's probably it for the time being thank you thank you mr bishop i think it's it was incredibly useful to just highlight that this is not unique to ones with that this is case law and that this division between planning and licensing isn't isn't a ones with issue it's just how business is done so i appreciate the clarification there and are there any other questions from the subcommittee for representations of miss yielding at this point no okay we'll go over to councillor critchard please thank you um thanks uh can i just double check something before i start because i haven't seen a change on the class i really need to get this straight in my head is now what the application is is for a restaurant to be open till two o'clock in the morning yeah yes that's what the application is yes what the 11 o'clock onwards i mean you could get takeaway from a restaurant before that anyway so could i just clarify why does that make a difference and if mr bishop's able to answer yeah yeah bear with me sorry um unfortunately this comes from a the the creation of the licensing act 2003 when it came in um and uh probably five or six different pieces of legislation that were combined together um and um but deregulation that's also happened since and effectively if you if you run a restaurant um you you will have no problem being able to sell your food from eight say eight o'clock in the morning until actually say five o'clock in the morning even until 11 o'clock at night there's no license that you have to have in place to do that however if you want to open later than that between the hours of 11 up to five then you'd have to have a premises license in place to do that what is known as late night refreshment um and that's what this applicant is applying for tonight to be able to have a restaurant that's open until two the ability to do takeaways from it and the ability for people to go in and take food that they order at the counter and back take it back home so that's why they're doing this application i hope that helps you're muted you're muted you're muted councillor if you went sorry if you went in half past 11 you could sit down and have a restaurant meal does that is this what this yes you could eat in or you could take out either or here i'm just mr mallet please can you refrain unless i ask you to speak at the moment we are hearing representation from miss councillor critchard and she's asking those of mr bishop should you have anything please raise your hand or just a gesture to me that you'd like to speak mr bishop please can you answer the question posed by councillor critchard i will um yes so at the moment they can't trade after 11 p.m and that's why they have to make this application right and the trade could be either okay right okay thank you very much um oh gosh sorry i'm just going to try and set up i would try and set a timer um okay so i have five minutes brilliant um okay thank you very much committee thank you for hearing um my representation what i am going to do is first of all remind the committee of excuse me the history of this particular premises which was as you know sugeneres uh it was a slots um when that application came through miss hopkins probably around 2019 we the applicant then wanted to be open all night and the committee then refused that on the ground because this is a residential area with um with lots of people living nearby as miss yeldon and her husband do and it was felt this area was not suitable for a late night opening of the premises so picking up this particular and obviously one of the things i would say is i don't think very much has changed there hasn't been that time to make us consider that the area would be suitable and therefore a late night opening premises would be um something that would be of its nature and public nuisance i see there's a complication with planning and licensing if at all possible my recommendation would be that whatever the licensing committee grants is able to not be applied until the planning commission has been resolved um i also would say i'm disappointed from mr malik's from what mr malik has said that we firstly haven't seen the actual client and secondly there seems to have been a history of not knowing that i had to do a planning application they had to deal with the rubbish which is actually very unsettling excuse me i would say for me as a local councillor to hear that this hasn't been properly it does not seem to be properly thought through and i would like the committee to think about that when looking at things like the dispersal policy so there's evidence of not thinking through it concerns me that the whole thing has not been thought through um i would say that we have issues locally with other takeaways um and late night opening the police have been called i appreciate mr malik it might not have been for your premises but your premises have only been trading for about six weeks and that may not be that we've ended up with the police being called over it i don't know but they are called frequently in that area for other premises locally because the residents have noticed this my suggestion is that the late night opening actually will mean there is public nuisance um again in the past we had issues when the classic club put open really really late they have a dispersed the dispersal policy for the classic was similar that somebody had to i'm just trying to read it the dispersal for the classic was around making sure that people were walked to their cars late um so we didn't have groups of people coming out being noisy i think that any dispersal policy has to cover that but in any case i think that it's inappropriate in this area for a restaurant to be open later than 11 o'clock for anything i would suggest that we would be i would be very worried about creep because the pub and corner isn't allowed to open so late so i would want the committee to reduce the opening hours and this yelled and has suggested midnight i would actually suggest given it takes half an hour to clear the premises that it's 11 o'clock that they close and if there's a real issue maybe at the weekend they could open late uh friday saturday if that was something the committee was minded to do to give a bit of leeway but be very clear on this um and i so my suggestion is this is not the place to have late night opening because it's a residential area we have previous experience i know that applicants always say well we don't know it was our premises but actually we know that if people are there late in that area they cause noise and i'm afraid whatever mr malik says that is unfortunate and that is not what my residents wish to do so i would urge the committee to reconsider the late night license and if you do feel minded that you need to give something that it's only on a friday and a saturday thank you thank you councillor critchard um does the subcommittee have any questions for those making representations councillor lawless hello thank you um i was going to ask um miss yeldon um and mr southwell um i don't think they're married though anna-marie um that they laughed when you said that um i just want to ask um can you elaborate a bit more on some of the local um nuisance issues that you've had um because i think it might be useful for context in the area um yes i'm just you know just got engaged that's why we smiled um but um anyway that said um i think i mean i think three spring to mind quite um quickly um there was one situation where there was a car a lot of people drive um and because it's a one-way street they drive down the street and walk back up after these establishments close um there was one occasion where there was a group of about six um men probably between the age of about 18 and 25 gathered at about 1 30 in the morning um when we politely went outside um to ask them if they could maybe be a bit quieter because we sleep in the top bedroom but could still hear them with the windows closed we've got told to f off um so obviously you don't feel particularly safe at which point we um rang the police there was another occasion where there was a lot of disturbance i think this is going back a couple of months in the area where um police cars were at the end of the street um a lot of people were then walking up the street to their cars because i think the police were trying to disperse people away from the immediate incident which meant they ended up on our street when we opened the window and just said because people were talking for a very long time i got a woman yelling at his back um saying basically to mind her own business despite being a residential area and then a third occasion um was just and this is kind of an ongoing occasion where um just as the corner turns onto furcroft road you get a lot of people gathering and just standing so effectively you can't walk down the pavement um so you have to walk onto the road um and also because again and i think it's some groups of on the whole young men in large groups it's quite unsettling late at night i think for people with families and also single women walking alone which i don't think ideally would be the sort of situation that people would want to feel i think we've also looked at quite a lot of like the statistics when kind of moving into the area and there's quite a lot of anti-social behavior and violent crime which clearly i think is quite concerning and i think would ideally have stop thank you for that miss yeldon anything more councillor lawless so i just wanted to just clarify the issues that you raise are not particular to this this this business though they're just general neighborhood issues they're not to do with this particular premises i think it's really hard to say if it's one business or another because we don't we don't stand outside the business waiting to see who's left which business and then decide who's decided to come onto our street surprisingly at one o'clock in the morning yeah in bed so i think yeah we don't know for six weeks and they close at 11 so if there's things possibly happening later and as you said it was months ago some of this then it's i just want to be clarin in terms of parity and neutrality that that's not this particular license because he's only been around for six weeks and some of the incidences you've raised go back months the situations i gave yes were not directly related to the first two were not directly related to this license i think the third was over the christmas period on numerous occasions where there were groups of young men um congregating on the side of the street okay thank you for the clarity miss yeldon uh councillor critchard i was just going to add that the descriptions of what happens that miss yeldon has put forward um is exactly what we have seen particularly in the past when it was a classic sorry i'm trying to deal with my hand mr flowers um exactly what we've happened it has happened in the past and i appreciate you know sometimes you can't tell who it is the thing is that every time there is a late night opening that will contribute to to it that's the real issue for this and actually restricting the late night opening means you you don't add to it and i would also add the police that's something that comes up to our ward panels is how we deal with this sort of behavior from people and why the police are called and they do have a presence uh thank you miss for councillor critchard over to you councillor brooks thank you very much um i'm very sympathetic with what um councillor critchard's saying just a clarification about what we're allowed to consider um we recently ran the cumulative impact survey uh assessment sorry um are we this might be one for mr bishop um are we allowed to consider cumulative cumulative impact um in the context of an individual licensing at a subcommittee good question um do you want to put your hand down yeah yeah um yeah good question um yes i think ultimately even if there's uh no cumulative impact policy in place you're still able to consider whether there's cumulative impact that might arise from the operation of the premises great thank you very much i'm definitely allowed to do that still thank you good but obviously obviously it goes without saying councillor brooks that you um have to um do that on the basis of some evidence uh or some knowledge that you have from the meeting or or indeed yourselves um freight supplied as they say thank you thank you um i just had there were more two observations um and it was in remarks to me uh by councillor critchard about one being the former place of the slot slot machines and that there was a decision not to extend um the license um i do think we do need to distinguish though between sitting and eating food and going into essentially a betting house so i think that that there are a change of the change of use of those places should in my opinion um attracted possibly a different clientele so that's the first thing i think we should be mindful as a subcommittee and the second thing is the classics club is a club or was a club i don't know if it's still going um and once again i think that may attract a different sort of clientele people that are going out to maybe revel and dare i say have fun and then you know become inebriated or drunk or so forth as opposed to someone who may let's for instance say say be coming back incredibly late from bala and walking down and feel like they need to have something to eat at maybe half 11 at night um you know a betting shop and a club very different places from a formal restaurant or somewhere you can take food to go so i just think it's important that that distinction for the comments that have been raised by councillor critchard are just um surfaced for the sub committee to take into consideration councillor critchard uh thank you yeah and i appreciate the um the distinction oh sorry i appreciate the distinction but i would again say is the one thing it was a slot rather than a betting shop and one of the things that probably happens is people go in and out individually that's the sort that's a different sort of setup as opposed to a restaurant where people come out in groups and it's the coming out in groups talking loudly and chatting and it doesn't make any difference i've got a case somewhere else doesn't make any difference whether alcohol is involved or not involved i don't think there's a problem uh it's everyone coming out noisily walking around being difficult and i mean we haven't even discussed rubbish which is another problem that occurs once you have takeaways with rub but i would just say is i appreciate that but i think the movement of the people is actually like to be increased by a restaurant and that's the issue for the local residents rather than the noise and the classic that was had a lot of problems movement of people so is that helpful no incredibly helpful and i as you've said it actually does give more clarity that the in and out of a slot machine place which essentially it's not betting in the sense but you are betting is very different from potential groups of people going out for a meal and the noise that's going to cause be amplified from one or two people how many people go in and on an individual level so thank you for highlighting that councillor critchard miss yeldon soon to be missing um thank you um i was just going to clarify the three um scenarios or examples i gave also i do not believe the individuals were under the influence of alcohol so i don't think the presence of this presence of alcohol is the rationale for the public nuisance in this occasion thank you for that clarity that that really is good for us to consider as um the licensing committee okay i'll get back to my my notes i now invite if there aren't any other actually i'm safe there aren't are there any other questions of clarification or on anything that has been stated i will now invite the attending parties to provide their closing remarks you will each have a maximum of two minutes to provide any summary comments before we formally conclude the public part of the meeting and i invite you to speak in the following order representation and then applicant so we'll go over to um miss yeldon and then to councillor critchard and then we'll come to the applicant thank you and it's thank you thank you everybody for kind of listening to our representation today and also taking consideration of councillor critchard who um has been very helpful throughout this process so really appreciate it um i think our main point is the late night license being until two o'clock in the morning and i think um when we first examined this we looked at the we achieved and we looked at the royal mahal where it is not two o'clock in the morning i think we are deeply concerned that the current requirements from the planning application do not necessarily um effectively address some of those bigger concerns so around the dispersal of people the um public the noise that comes out of the establishment so i think for us the main aim here would really be to not have something extended until two o'clock in the morning because i think that by its very definition doesn't create public nuisance if people can't be about to create that public nuisance i won't go into much further detail on that i think it's quite straightforward and self-explanatory thank you for that representation mr yeldon councillor critchard do you have anything to say in closing uh yeah thanks very much um i'll try and summarize what i'm going to say first of all i think yep this should be ideally refused the late night license should be refused if the can if the committee are minded to agree i would only recommend they ever consider agreeing in part weekend and if they are minded to agree i think we need very tight conditions on dispersal noise and how that's managed so that would be making sure that people stay in the restaurant until um they one person goes out to collect the car only one person that's there's i mean i think miss hopkins can probably find what the dispersal policy was for the classic i'd go for something absolutely similar uh i would recommend dormer a door person on the i know it's unusual but because it's late um and i would uh also suggest that the license doesn't come into play until the planning issues have been resolved because actually i think that and that would actually be a good thing from the applicant's perspective because i think the applicant needs to show that they consider that this is in a residential area and they would like to be a good neighbor and i'm sure that's one of those things that all applicants should consider so that's my position i don't want you to grant it and if you are going to grant it tied to conditions thank you councillor critchard uh mr bishop i saw a hand up i don't know if it was a legacy legacy hand or i do just maybe for parity for for you know for transparency if there was it was more it was more guidance really um you love a bit of guidance please i'm doing my best excuse me um so yeah again as i said earlier in terms of the planning you can't um you can't as a committee grant and subject to the planning coming into force they're different legislation so if you were to grant it would be grant and planning enforcement would stop something happening until such time with the plan as the planning was in force um the other thing to mention in relation to um door supervision and obviously uh the idea of effectively somebody having to accompany you to your car um what the committee has to do when they're making these decisions is to make a decision which is both appropriate and proportionate okay and so you have to bear that in mind such a condition would be a little bit onerous on the operation premises um so i just put that there in your mind for the committee to think about when then if they have to make the decision thank you mr bishop um i do have a question i'm sorry it's just come to me but what is the the now it's being refitted and it's two shops what is the capacity it's probably in the the the minutes somewhere but actually as councillor critchard had made that statement now it makes me think what is the capacity of we're hoping for mr malik so before you go into your closing statements to ensure that you have the appropriate time for yourself to give closing remarks could you just um yeah kindly share what the capacity of the restaurant wants all of this refurb and all of it should the let pregnant should the use change of use license be granted what would be the full capacity of the restaurant that could potentially be open to two o'clock in the morning if we were if we were going to give you the license late license yes that's right um the total seating capacity at the moment when it's fully operational would be about up to 50 seats so we won't be more than that sorry 50 or 250 no 50 it's not a lot 50 yeah 50 seats yeah okay okay thank you for that clarity that's very useful information all right so no other questions and if you would like to speak now mr malik with your closing remarks you have two minutes thank you i'd just like to point out what councillor critchard said regarding the applicant being a good neighbor and obviously making sure the planning and everything is addressed to make sure we're doing our part like i said we've done everything we've done from our side we put the planning in we've resolved the refuge issue we're trying our best to make sure what we do as a business as ourselves we're doing the best we can to minimize any nuisance what nuisance is caused by any other business is out of our control that's something the local enforcement police or they need to address if the police do turn up and tell residents to or people to walk down certain roads that's nothing we can control that's obviously them dispersing people as quickly as possible so obviously we can't control that but anything that happens from our side we're going to try our best to obviously resolve obviously what cancer preacher said having people or staff escorting members of public to the cause it's only a certain limit you can do that up to but we're going to try our best we'll have a people at the door to address people not to make too much noise outside the shop to get to the car as soon as possible because obviously they need to make sure people leave safely and as quickly as possible and safely and anyone parking inappropriately are like ideally outside the shop and drop on the curbs those will be restricted as well they'll be told to park appropriately in a proper parking bay so staff will make sure people are not doing something against the law in essence and in terms of late night application they are the premises along the street mainly takeaways that have got approval since 2 a.m. and again like I said those are takeaways so that's a different type of food trade in and out in and out so there's more nuisances more noise and there's more people people people going in and out as we are a restaurant there's obviously going to be like I said previously in the start it's more of a eating so people are going in the sitting down spending mostly on takeaways so they could be the reason for nuisance I'm not saying they are but ours as we are a restaurant so it's completely different scenario and obviously different kind of environment and setting so it's more family based and more dining experience so I think based on that that's all I have to say thank you very much thank you Mr Malik I just would like to say just for parity you had said though that this is a potential place for people to pick up food from and for food to be delivered from like so I wouldn't want the the committee to be misled that's a restaurant and then you can go and deliveroo sorry any of these are just uber eats any of these delivery places at one and get it because a concern is not just people leaving the restaurant it is mopeds and delivery drivers at those late times they do make a nuisance so I just wanted to be very clear do not mislead us by saying oh it's going to be family restaurant and then actually people start finding at 1 1 32 o'clock in the morning lots of delivery people or whoever so you can tell which which firm I use going in and out because I think that that's dishonest so whilst you know you may have intentions if you are going to have a broader plan then don't try and stick to we're just going to be a restaurant and actually in six months time we see it on delivery for one o'clock in the morning because that would you know be quite egregious to Councillor Critchard and Missy Eldon and other residents who are under the impression if they're watching this live this evening that it's a family restaurant so I just think that's important to add because we will be considering everything but I take into consideration if you are allowed to have people coming and going at two o'clock in the morning or one o'clock in the morning there's no reason you would not because you would be allowed to do so so I just think it's important we state that okay at this point if we have no further questions and no further clarification I'd really like to say thank you to everybody that concludes this part of the meeting the decision the decision reasons that any legal guidance given during a subcommittee's committee's discussion that has informed their decision will be confirmed in writing together with information about any rights of appeal within five working days I'd like to thank Missy Eldon and her lovely fiancee I'd like to thank Councillor Critchard I'd like to thank the officers and fellow councillors for being here members of the licensing subcommittee the democratic services officer and legal advisor we will now join a separate confidential meeting to make the decision so may I say everybody if I was a teacher I'd say have a really pleasant evening Missy Eldon thank you and your future husband for taking the time to join us this evening we really do appreciate when we have residents that you know care about the area and have questions that allows us to make informed decisions Mr. Malik we do appreciate the new businesses coming into the area so we thank you for making the application as well and Councillor Critchard as always it's a pleasure to see you being so active for the residents and active for yourself so have a pleasant evening everybody lovely thank you thanks everyone bye bye thank you bye bye now thank you
Transcript
Thank you. And the meeting is now live. Hello, everyone, and welcome to this licensing subcommittee of the 12th of February. So, the first item that we need to go through is the appointment of the chair, because the actual chair can't be present this evening. So, it's proposed that Council of French chairs this meeting, and I'd like to ask the subcommittee if they're happy with that. Yes, all good with me? Yeah, happy. Excellent. Okay. So, before we move on to the actual item itself, I did circulate earlier on a late submission from the applicant to do with the refuse waste collection services. And I just want to check if we have everyone's agreement to include that as part of the application, as part of the hearing. Yes. Is that okay? Yes. Yeah, happy with me. Okay, brilliant. Okay. So, chair, when you're ready, over to you. Oh, sorry, Rebecca. Sorry, Guy. Miss Yeldon, I think, has something to say. Sorry, Miss Yeldon. No, not to worry. I did have a quick question about it in my response email. Was, is this relevant to planning or was it relevant to licensing? Because I think previously when we submitted our response, we were under the understanding it was a planning decision, not a licensing decision. And therefore, is it appropriate to discuss in this meeting? Sure. So, I'm sure Miss Hopkins will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's going to be picked up as part of Miss Hopkins' introduction to the application. Perfect. Thank you very much. No worries. So, chair, whenever you're ready, over to you. Thank you. Good evening, everyone. Welcome to this meeting of the licensing subcommittee, which is being held as a remote meeting. The meeting is being webcast, and please bear with us if there are any technical issues. My name is Councillor French, and I'm chairing this meeting. I will now invite other attendees to introduce themselves in the following order. Are councillors, officers, applicant, representations. Thank you. Councillor Lawless, do you want to... Hello, I'm Sean Lawless, councillor for Tooting Broadway. Hello, I'm Ethan Brooks, councillor for Thamesfield Ward in Putney. Officers? Yes, hello. I'm Guy Bishop, solicitor for South London Legal Partnership, part of the shared legal service, and I'm the legal advisor to the subcommittee for tonight's hearing. My name is Julie Hopkins, and I am the lead licensing officer. I am Becky Hickey. I am a democratic services officer and clerk for this hearing. And my name is Michael Flowers, democratic service officer, acting as the webcaster for this meeting, and supporting officer for democratic services. Thank you, officers. Over to the applicant. My name is Mohamed Malik, and I'm the agent acting on behalf of the applicant. Thank you. Over to representations, please. Hi, Belinda Gildan, one of the representations, and... And Thomas Southwell, also resident. Thank you, both. Hi, I'm councillor Anna-Marie Critchard. I'm making representations as well, and I am one of the local councillors who represent residents in the ward in which the application is at the moment, which is Tooting Beck Ward. Thank you. So, going ahead with the meeting agenda items one and two. Are there any apologies for absence or declarations of interest for any items on the agenda? Okay, no. Thank you. Moving swiftly on. We will now consider the application for a new premises licence in respect of the premises known as Butkarahi, 26A to 26B, Upper Tooting Road, London, SW17, 7PG. And I now invite the licensing officer, Miss Hopkins, to introduce the application. Thank you. Thank you, councillor. This is an application for a new late-night refreshment licence. Tooting, Karahi and Company Limited have applied for a new premises licence for the premises known as Butkarahi at 26A to 26B, Upper Tooting Road, SW17, 7PG. The applicant has applied for late-night refreshment for takeaway only between the hours of 11pm and 2am Monday to Sundays, with opening times of 8am to 2pm Monday to Sundays. The hours sought are within the Council's Statement of Licensing Policy Guideline hours for late-night refreshment premises within Wandsworth. The application was advertised as required under the legislation, and this has resulted in the receipt of two representations from other persons. No representations were received from any of the other responsible authorities. However, the Council's planning team did submit comments on the application with regards to planning. As per the committee report, planning and licence are separate regimes, so both have different objectives, so must be decided separately. However, since the publication of the report, the applicant submitted an email today to both licensing and democratic services teams, confirming that a formal application has now been submitted to the planning team for a change of use to Class E restaurant. The applicant has also confirmed that they now have a refuse collection contract, who will collect their refuse from inside the premises daily, with no refuse being kept outside the premises. And the applicant has actually requested this be noted in the minutes. The other person's representations are, therefore, the only matters of consideration tonight. The question that Ms Yeldon asked about whether this is a planning or a licensing issue with regards to refuse, it would come under public nuisance, which is one of the four licensing objectives. So, it is relevant to the Licensing Act, and we have had many licences with conditions regarding to refuse. So, I hope that clears up that query. Councillors, I have no further matters to raise in respect of the application, but I'm happy to answer any questions that you may have. Thank you. Thank you, Ms Hopkins. Does the subcommittee have any questions for the Licensing Officer? Councillor Brooks. Thank you, Councillor French. Yeah, so, thank you for that initial introduction. In the comments from the planning team, they said that this would require change of use through planning, but I'm given to believe the business is already open and operating. Is that normal to begin operation before you've got the change of use in place? It does happen. In an ideal world, they would apply for planning first and then apply for licensing. They're two separate legislations, as we've previously discussed. They have now retrospectively put in an application for a change of use, but if the licence was granted tonight, they would still need to adhere to any planning restrictions. I don't know if Guy would like to add anything else on that. I was going to let Mr Malik speak first before I say anything, because I suspect he's got something to say about that. Oh, right. Okay. Yes, hello, Mr Malik. Hi, just on to Mr Brooks' question about opening without planning. So, what it was, originally, before my client took on the business, it was two premises. One was a takeaway, and the other was a betting shop. So, when my client took on the business, he thought, since it was a takeaway, he's already operating as a food business. So, he had the assumption that we could continue operating as a food business, but he wasn't aware of the planning change of use policies around change of use. So, he thought, from his understanding, it's a food business already, and we're just opening another food business. So, that's why he continued. But, obviously, enforcement got involved, told them, no, look, that was Sue Generous Takeaway, and there's a Sue Generous Betting Shop, and you did a change of use to Classy Restaurant. So, that's where the retrospective application has gone in. In terms of the canopy and the extraction, that's all existing from the existing takeaway. So, all they've done is just internal fitter, refurbishment. Everything else has been kept the same. So, the application is in at the moment, which reflects a change of use, just a material change of use, and which also highlights the refuse collection issues as well, which has been addressing the planning. And, as Mrs. Hopkins has said, I've also included the documentations with this application. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Malik. And Mr. Bishop? Yes, Councillor. It's very simple. Matters of planning are matters for the planning authority. Matters under the Licensing Act are literally to look at the licensing objectives and those sort of issues. Hopefully, the planning issues will be addressed, and that will be something for that side of the things, not for this committee necessarily to consider. So, sure. Thank you. Thank you. Are there any other questions for our licensing officer, Ms. Hopkins? Are there any other questions or clarifications on anything that's been stated? As a reminder, both the applicant and representations will have a chance to address the subcommittee, and this should only be where you'd like qualifications or something stated by the speaker. Ms. Yellund. I see your hand written, please. I should. The question or response, it's in our wider response, but you stated, and I think you stated in the letter, that a notice was put on the establishment during the period. We have significant evidence that indicates that that was not the case, and I wonder if the council have anything that demonstrates that that was adhered to. Yes, we do. We have photographic evidence that the notice was up. Are you able to provide that to us? Because I think the evidence that we took during the early weeks of January indicates that that wasn't the case. I'm not sure that we can provide that, can we, Guy? You could. So, the officers do check it. I mean, I think the point, sorry, councillor, the point here is that it's down to the officers to check that the statutory notices are in place. The officers have checked that, and they are content that they have been in place. Otherwise, we wouldn't be at this meeting. OK, we'll address it in our further follow-up, I think. Sure. Thank you. OK. I now invite the applicant to address the subcommittee, and you will have five minutes to speak, after which questions may be asked of you. Mr Malik, over to you. Thank you very much. So, just going back on, obviously, we kind of highlighted the main issues, and looking at the comments made by Ms Yeldon and Councillor Richard, the main issue they're coming across with is the nuisance and, obviously, refuse and parking and all that kind of stuff. But from my experience and all the applications we've done, these are the common kind of objections we get all the time. But my question to all the councillors and the committee members always is, do these relate to our client's business? Because sometimes these issues can be caused by other businesses, but then our client or our client's business suffers the consequences. Yes, we put our hand up to the refuse issue, and, like I said, we've resolved that. Obviously, the client was not informed well by Biff at the collection company. They said, oh, we work with the council and you can put your bins outside. So, he obviously didn't know much, so he put them outside. But he's had to pay the consequences of that, pay the fines. But now he's got two companies employed to do the refuse collection. Two, because just in case one doesn't turn up, he's also got a backup. So, he's happy he spent the money. He's got the collections, they're literally collection of them every day, twice a day, morning and evening. So, obviously, the refuse side is being resolved. And secondly, in terms of nuisance and people congregating outside, I must point out, this is a restaurant and people obviously go in, they're going to be sitting at the table and they're going to be spending at least an hour, hour and a half eating. So, it's not like a takeaway. You go in, you take your food outside and you stand outside and eat or eat on the streets or just eat in your car. So, this is something that people will come, they'll park their car sensibly, sleep appropriately and then go inside with their family, eat, spend at least an hour inside and then leave. So, it's not something that we go in and out quickly. So, that will obviously, that eliminates the nuisance kind of issue because, like I said, you're going in, you're sitting down, you're eating. And other comments were, I think those are the main ones that were raised really. But yeah, like I said, if there are issues caused by other businesses, I would like to just, people, I would just like to point out that you should make a decision based on if all those problems are coming from my client's business rather than from other people's business and we are being in the blame for them. Like you said, Ms. Hopkins, that none of the police or any of the authorities have made any objections, which clearly shows that our business is not causing any problems. If there were any objections from police or from any of the departments, then obviously we could say, okay, we'll action them appropriately. But like I said, there has been nothing from anyone. Obviously, planning has raised an objection. We will address that. Refuse the problem. We will address that. Any other issues, we're happy to work with the council. So if there are any problems or any issues further down the line or at this moment in time, we're happy to address that. My client will take all the proper actions needed. Thank you. I think you're on mute, Katrina. Still. Still on mute. Mute. Oh, gosh. I think I'm being far too not heavy-handed. I'm really pressing. I was not working. Apologies for that. Thank you, Mr. Malik. And thank you, councillors, for noting that. Does anyone have any questions from the subcommittee for the applicant at the moment? Thank you, Councillor Lawless. Thank you. And thank you for that, Mr. Malik. Can I ask a question around the comment you made there around people will be sitting indoors? So the application to open until 2 a.m. is for takeaways only, I understand. So what would the policy be around that? And in terms of dispersal and making sure that people are leaving or arriving in a manner that's not causing a public nuisance, can you talk to us about your plans around that, please? The proposal, I think, ideally is supposed to be for eating anyway. So I think the idea may be because I think the client or someone who got the submitted application at that time by put on take it, but the intention is for eating only. And in terms of dispersal and make sure people leave quietly and appropriately, obviously, remember, staff will be standing outside if the shop is too busy. They'll obviously be told to leave or they'll be told to wait inside rather than standing outside on the streets and talking. And when they do leave, obviously, the staff will make sure that obviously, no, people are not talking outside on the streets too late at late night and just make sure they leave straight to the car and go home rather than hanging around the building outside. Sorry, just for clarification, councillor. The application is for both indoors and outdoors. So effectively, it would be sitting, eating, but also it could be takeaways. But if the applicant is explaining, Mr Malik, if you're explaining that you're changing it to just indoors, then just if you could clarify that, that would be helpful. Yes, it would be just indoors eating, yes. So just for my understanding, that means if I come in at 12 o'clock, I won't be able to have a takeaway. Well, under, actually, another class E restaurant, you're allowed to set a percentage of takeaway. So obviously, the main, it'll be just like a little bit of takeaway, but the main intention is to eat in only. I know what the main intention is, but I'm just a bit confused as to, would that mean because Councillor Lawless said that he was under the impression that it was takeaway only. Then Mr Bishop said that actually the application allows for both was my understanding. People could take away and people could eat in. You had, before Mr Mallet, I'm sorry, yeah, take away, yeah. That they would be just eating in. So just for clarity, what is the position that you intend to put forward today that people would be able to take away between the hours of, is it 11 and 2? I've seen the application. Are you saying there will not be takeaway between hours of 11 and 2? It would probably be 10% takeaway and about 90% eating in. So there would be takeaway and you do collections as well? Yes, collections as well, yeah. The collections, somebody coming in, collecting and taking home or deliveries by moped or what it may be from the premises to a residential property as well as sit-in. Yes. So all three. Okay, fine. Thank you for that clarity. Councillor Brooks, I saw you have your hand up. It's gone down. I don't know if that was a legacy hand up. I think it got covered just then. Thank you. Okay, then any other questions, councillors on the subcommittee for the applicant at this moment? No, I had the question same as councillor all this, but I think that's been clarified now. Sorry, I'm just going to my notes. So any other questions or clarification that has to be stated at this moment? As a reminder, the representations will have a chance to address the committee and this should only be where you would like clarification on something that has been stated by the speaker. I will now invite those making representations to address the subcommittee and you will have five minutes to speak after which questions may be asked to you. I'll start with Miss Yeldon and the young man with her over to you both and then I'll come to your council. Perfect. Thank you very much. We have a couple of things that we would like to say. I think there's three things before we get into the detail of the application that we would like to raise at this stage. I think first and foremost is the inadequacy of the application really to have any meaningful detail. In terms of public safety, there's no detail on things like risk assessment, security measures, capacity management, so that's quite challenging for residents to be able to comment on that properly. I think same with the public nuisance. There's nothing on customer dispersal, there's nothing on vehicle management, cloud control, litter management, staff training, risk of vermin, monitoring procedures. The protection from children's section is entirely blank. I think what's concerning about that is the fact that it's really hard to know if they understand for establishment their responsibilities under the licensing act. It's hard to know if they have the necessary procedures in place and can effectively manage a late-night licence and will continue to uphold those objectives. I'm a bit surprised in all honesty as a public servant that this has reached the committee stage without having any more robustness asked as part of the application process. It makes me question if the council's fulfilling its duty to be able to properly scrutinise applications around this sort of thing. I think the second one is about the consultation process. I think we might have two different sides to this but we do not believe based on the number of times we walked past that proper notice was displayed in the window so we'd really like some confirmation of that. And I think the fact that there's a disconnect between the planting and licensing, while we understand that they're separate regimes, I think the fact that you have to make one decision without the other is quite tricky in the fact that it's not... You seem to be having some technical difficulties. Am I the only one? Sorry, you've just lost me, I was there. I think the trick in that is the fact that there's no opportunity for them to, for a decision to be made with all of the information available which makes it quite a tricky decision. I think if we move on to the actual application at hand and then the council suggestions, I think we're very worried about the real issues that affect residents on this road. So the groups of customers congregating and blocking access both on Fircroft Road so you have to walk out onto the road which doesn't feel particularly safe. The number of people who kind of congregate on the streets in the middle of the night on numerous occasions we've had no choice but call the police. Other residents have had to come out of their houses, there's been shouting, screaming in the streets and then also just meaningful measures in there to protect kind of the residential status of the area. This is Tooting Beck, it's very different to Tooting Broadway where there's many more bars and establishments and I think there's a worry here about the hours creeping later and later and later. So under the previous administration, places like the Weechee closed on weekdays at half past eleven at night, the Royal Mahal is midnight on weekdays. This is a two o'clock in the morning, establishment all throughout the week which is incredibly late for a residential area and there's been very little consultation on what that means from a broader policy shift. So why is there a need for such late hours? Why is it two o'clock and not midnight? And what would be that assessment completed by the council on that cumulative impact on residents? Similar again, there's a lot of police incidents in the area around antithetical behaviour and violence that feels particularly unsafe and it's not clear to me if the council have completed any assessment into that and a new late licence will only compound some of these issues from our beliefs. It seems really tricky here because I think based on what's been assessed and the information that's been provided to us, it's really hard to tell if the council is taking those statutory duties seriously because they haven't been able to respond in a way that has said what they have assessed and also the promises that they've made all at this moment in time seem quite unenforceable so we don't know how the dispersal policy will be monitored, we don't know how vehicle nuisance will be controlled, we're not sure what will happen if there's a breach, there's many other establishments in this area doing similar and having similar requirements, yep. As a residential area at two o'clock in the morning, I think there's a big question on do people need to be able to eat at 2am in an establishment both in and out and then it's just also recognising that the council doesn't appear to fully being able to assess either through limited information or not asking for more information about public safety, protecting children from harm and public nuisance. So I think our major concern here is there hasn't necessarily been opportunity for proper consultation but doesn't seem to be clear analysis this and also we're worried that there's limited justification for why the council has come back with the decision that it sent to us on the 4th of February or the recommendation it sent to us on the 4th of February and I think we just want to make sure that the council has really thought about establishments already in the area understood about the cumulative impact which seems to kind of be a speed walking by adding more and more establishments to this later night economy without any consultation on what that might mean and then also just really thinking about how do we make sure that applications are adequate because as it stands it's been very very hard as a resident to be able to assess what the implications might be because the application is one line two lines maybe no lines at best and all of the things that the council have a duty to have regard to so I think our main aim is really to get to a point where we don't have a two o'clock in the morning establishment it's very very late and I think from a residential neighbourhood just not really appropriate but there's also many steps along the way where it doesn't feel like the council has fully looked into this in proper detail and that is concerning I think as a resident thank you for that representation Miss Yeldon now I can see that Mr Bishop and Mr Flowers have their hands up in response I don't know if it's appropriate now to hear from Councillor Critchard or for you to respond to the representations that have been made Mr Bishop maybe Mr Flowers might want to go first okay Mr Flowers thank you Chair it was just to suggest that it might be beneficial for the licensing officer just to go into a bit more detail about the consultation period and what the requirements are in terms of the applicant's responsibilities because from previous licensing meetings I do understand that it can be confusing in terms of what is required and what isn't and it might be then that Miss Yeldon can explain a bit more if anything the licensing officer said she doesn't think was done because I think that's quite a key point that's been raised so if I could go over to Miss Hopkins perhaps to explain a bit more about the consultation process from the licensing perspective thank you Mr Bishop Hafter thank you it's a 28 day consultation period one of our officers went down there on the 19th of December and took photographs of the notice in situ at the premises the other thing that applicants have to do is they have to put a newspaper advert in and we check that and that was complied with those are the only two things that they're legally required to do so and if it's not done then it's not a valid application but as far as we're aware it was advertised correctly yeah that's sorry councillor you've got your yeah just to say what newspaper was it advertised in when we say it has to be put in the newspaper where we have three it was it was in the south london weekly we have roughly about three newspapers that we advise people to put it in so it could be either be the wandsworth times the south london press or the south london weekly so that was it was in the south london weekly on the 20th of december 2024 fall okay thank you and is it just for that one one well it's just for once yeah once okay thank you and i can see miss yeldon you have some responses mr bishop i will come to you but as this is a ping pong let's go back to the representations from miss yeldon thank you and in terms of the time it meant to be in the window for is that meant to be for the 28 day period as well yes it was supposed to be up there till the 15th of January 2020 and i think that's the concern we have that photographic evidence we have from about the 31st of December when we became aware of this establishment and the licensing we have evidence that indicates it wasn't in the window for at least a two week period of that so that's not having it when people return in the new year potentially means that residents did not have the opportunity to be able to engage with it I'm also not sure what window it would have been on so if there's any clarification on that because two of the windows were blocked very heavily by refuge for that period of time well the photos quite clearly shows the notice in the window we don't but it's resulted in your representation and Councillor Critchard unfortunately it didn't result in our representation we proactively contacted the council so we didn't see a notice in the window we proactively contacted based on some concerns so I think this is your not because of a notice in the window which is a legal requirement I understand under regulation 25 of the licensing act 2003 I have no answer for that guy you're here now so we're discussing the application you're here now we're having hearing about the application that you've obviously seen the notice or at some stage or you've got your representation in whether you saw the notice on the council's website whichever way it happened we're having hearing on it now we are but that doesn't stop all the other people should have okay that's fine the statutory requirements are complied with as far as the licensing officer is concerned we note your comment that you don't think that has been fully complied with but we're having a hearing here today about the application because there are representations against it and the committee will sit and make a decision about that thank you I just would like to say so I was on pause if we could just for a point of order not speak over one another I don't want to have to be the chair that says everything to go through the chair and I understand that this can be quite a motive from people providing representations but just for respectfully and for the process if we could just allow people to answer questions and then you know speak through the chair appreciate it Mr Bishop does that yeah so I was just going to address some of the other points Miss Yelder's made simply from the point of view of clarification legal advice if you want to call it that I understand completely your view in terms of the dichotomy between planning and licensing the whole point of that dichotomy is to allow flexibility and there's a very extensive case law on it which basically says ultimately that planning stays in planning licensing stays in licensing and that anything that needs to be dealt with by the enforcement side of planning has to be dealt with by the enforcement side of planning okay so if you want to you can obviously pursue that with the planning or enforcement team council but obviously the whole point of the different applications being made is that you don't have to have this thing of one application then another and that's why you can make an application and have grant possibly of something that you may not have planning permission for but you might get it in due course or vice versa it's just the way the legislation works and the way the case law works and there's two different cases there Blackwood and Summerfield which would both apply in those circumstances so that's the planning the planning side was it that you mentioned yeah the I understand your point in relation to the nature of the application and your request for extensive more detail but obviously the client sorry the applicant has to comply with the application form and the operating schedule and that's what we have to look at as a licensing subcommittee the use of conditions is also something we look at very carefully and the licensing subcommittee when it makes its decision will consider whether further conditions need to be imposed if it feels they should yes in terms of the dispersal policy obviously if the application is granted it would be down to licensing enforcement officers to investigate and work out whether that dispersal policy is properly in place and properly being enforced and can be enforced by them I think that's probably it for the time being thank you thank you mr bishop i think it's it was incredibly useful to just highlight that this is not unique to ones with that this is case law and that this division between planning and licensing isn't isn't a ones with issue it's just how business is done so i appreciate the clarification there and are there any other questions from the subcommittee for representations of miss yielding at this point no okay we'll go over to councillor critchard please thank you um thanks uh can i just double check something before i start because i haven't seen a change on the class i really need to get this straight in my head is now what the application is is for a restaurant to be open till two o'clock in the morning yeah yes that's what the application is yes what the 11 o'clock onwards i mean you could get takeaway from a restaurant before that anyway so could i just clarify why does that make a difference and if mr bishop's able to answer yeah yeah bear with me sorry um unfortunately this comes from a the the creation of the licensing act 2003 when it came in um and uh probably five or six different pieces of legislation that were combined together um and um but deregulation that's also happened since and effectively if you if you run a restaurant um you you will have no problem being able to sell your food from eight say eight o'clock in the morning until actually say five o'clock in the morning even until 11 o'clock at night there's no license that you have to have in place to do that however if you want to open later than that between the hours of 11 up to five then you'd have to have a premises license in place to do that what is known as late night refreshment um and that's what this applicant is applying for tonight to be able to have a restaurant that's open until two the ability to do takeaways from it and the ability for people to go in and take food that they order at the counter and back take it back home so that's why they're doing this application i hope that helps you're muted you're muted you're muted councillor if you went sorry if you went in half past 11 you could sit down and have a restaurant meal does that is this what this yes you could eat in or you could take out either or here i'm just mr mallet please can you refrain unless i ask you to speak at the moment we are hearing representation from miss councillor critchard and she's asking those of mr bishop should you have anything please raise your hand or just a gesture to me that you'd like to speak mr bishop please can you answer the question posed by councillor critchard i will um yes so at the moment they can't trade after 11 p.m and that's why they have to make this application right and the trade could be either okay right okay thank you very much um oh gosh sorry i'm just going to try and set up i would try and set a timer um okay so i have five minutes brilliant um okay thank you very much committee thank you for hearing um my representation what i am going to do is first of all remind the committee of excuse me the history of this particular premises which was as you know sugeneres uh it was a slots um when that application came through miss hopkins probably around 2019 we the applicant then wanted to be open all night and the committee then refused that on the ground because this is a residential area with um with lots of people living nearby as miss yeldon and her husband do and it was felt this area was not suitable for a late night opening of the premises so picking up this particular and obviously one of the things i would say is i don't think very much has changed there hasn't been that time to make us consider that the area would be suitable and therefore a late night opening premises would be um something that would be of its nature and public nuisance i see there's a complication with planning and licensing if at all possible my recommendation would be that whatever the licensing committee grants is able to not be applied until the planning commission has been resolved um i also would say i'm disappointed from mr malik's from what mr malik has said that we firstly haven't seen the actual client and secondly there seems to have been a history of not knowing that i had to do a planning application they had to deal with the rubbish which is actually very unsettling excuse me i would say for me as a local councillor to hear that this hasn't been properly it does not seem to be properly thought through and i would like the committee to think about that when looking at things like the dispersal policy so there's evidence of not thinking through it concerns me that the whole thing has not been thought through um i would say that we have issues locally with other takeaways um and late night opening the police have been called i appreciate mr malik it might not have been for your premises but your premises have only been trading for about six weeks and that may not be that we've ended up with the police being called over it i don't know but they are called frequently in that area for other premises locally because the residents have noticed this my suggestion is that the late night opening actually will mean there is public nuisance um again in the past we had issues when the classic club put open really really late they have a dispersed the dispersal policy for the classic was similar that somebody had to i'm just trying to read it the dispersal for the classic was around making sure that people were walked to their cars late um so we didn't have groups of people coming out being noisy i think that any dispersal policy has to cover that but in any case i think that it's inappropriate in this area for a restaurant to be open later than 11 o'clock for anything i would suggest that we would be i would be very worried about creep because the pub and corner isn't allowed to open so late so i would want the committee to reduce the opening hours and this yelled and has suggested midnight i would actually suggest given it takes half an hour to clear the premises that it's 11 o'clock that they close and if there's a real issue maybe at the weekend they could open late uh friday saturday if that was something the committee was minded to do to give a bit of leeway but be very clear on this um and i so my suggestion is this is not the place to have late night opening because it's a residential area we have previous experience i know that applicants always say well we don't know it was our premises but actually we know that if people are there late in that area they cause noise and i'm afraid whatever mr malik says that is unfortunate and that is not what my residents wish to do so i would urge the committee to reconsider the late night license and if you do feel minded that you need to give something that it's only on a friday and a saturday thank you thank you councillor critchard um does the subcommittee have any questions for those making representations councillor lawless hello thank you um i was going to ask um miss yeldon um and mr southwell um i don't think they're married though anna-marie um that they laughed when you said that um i just want to ask um can you elaborate a bit more on some of the local um nuisance issues that you've had um because i think it might be useful for context in the area um yes i'm just you know just got engaged that's why we smiled um but um anyway that said um i think i mean i think three spring to mind quite um quickly um there was one situation where there was a car a lot of people drive um and because it's a one-way street they drive down the street and walk back up after these establishments close um there was one occasion where there was a group of about six um men probably between the age of about 18 and 25 gathered at about 1 30 in the morning um when we politely went outside um to ask them if they could maybe be a bit quieter because we sleep in the top bedroom but could still hear them with the windows closed we've got told to f off um so obviously you don't feel particularly safe at which point we um rang the police there was another occasion where there was a lot of disturbance i think this is going back a couple of months in the area where um police cars were at the end of the street um a lot of people were then walking up the street to their cars because i think the police were trying to disperse people away from the immediate incident which meant they ended up on our street when we opened the window and just said because people were talking for a very long time i got a woman yelling at his back um saying basically to mind her own business despite being a residential area and then a third occasion um was just and this is kind of an ongoing occasion where um just as the corner turns onto furcroft road you get a lot of people gathering and just standing so effectively you can't walk down the pavement um so you have to walk onto the road um and also because again and i think it's some groups of on the whole young men in large groups it's quite unsettling late at night i think for people with families and also single women walking alone which i don't think ideally would be the sort of situation that people would want to feel i think we've also looked at quite a lot of like the statistics when kind of moving into the area and there's quite a lot of anti-social behavior and violent crime which clearly i think is quite concerning and i think would ideally have stop thank you for that miss yeldon anything more councillor lawless so i just wanted to just clarify the issues that you raise are not particular to this this this business though they're just general neighborhood issues they're not to do with this particular premises i think it's really hard to say if it's one business or another because we don't we don't stand outside the business waiting to see who's left which business and then decide who's decided to come onto our street surprisingly at one o'clock in the morning yeah in bed so i think yeah we don't know for six weeks and they close at 11 so if there's things possibly happening later and as you said it was months ago some of this then it's i just want to be clarin in terms of parity and neutrality that that's not this particular license because he's only been around for six weeks and some of the incidences you've raised go back months the situations i gave yes were not directly related to the first two were not directly related to this license i think the third was over the christmas period on numerous occasions where there were groups of young men um congregating on the side of the street okay thank you for the clarity miss yeldon uh councillor critchard i was just going to add that the descriptions of what happens that miss yeldon has put forward um is exactly what we have seen particularly in the past when it was a classic sorry i'm trying to deal with my hand mr flowers um exactly what we've happened it has happened in the past and i appreciate you know sometimes you can't tell who it is the thing is that every time there is a late night opening that will contribute to to it that's the real issue for this and actually restricting the late night opening means you you don't add to it and i would also add the police that's something that comes up to our ward panels is how we deal with this sort of behavior from people and why the police are called and they do have a presence uh thank you miss for councillor critchard over to you councillor brooks thank you very much um i'm very sympathetic with what um councillor critchard's saying just a clarification about what we're allowed to consider um we recently ran the cumulative impact survey uh assessment sorry um are we this might be one for mr bishop um are we allowed to consider cumulative cumulative impact um in the context of an individual licensing at a subcommittee good question um do you want to put your hand down yeah yeah um yeah good question um yes i think ultimately even if there's uh no cumulative impact policy in place you're still able to consider whether there's cumulative impact that might arise from the operation of the premises great thank you very much i'm definitely allowed to do that still thank you good but obviously obviously it goes without saying councillor brooks that you um have to um do that on the basis of some evidence uh or some knowledge that you have from the meeting or or indeed yourselves um freight supplied as they say thank you thank you um i just had there were more two observations um and it was in remarks to me uh by councillor critchard about one being the former place of the slot slot machines and that there was a decision not to extend um the license um i do think we do need to distinguish though between sitting and eating food and going into essentially a betting house so i think that that there are a change of the change of use of those places should in my opinion um attracted possibly a different clientele so that's the first thing i think we should be mindful as a subcommittee and the second thing is the classics club is a club or was a club i don't know if it's still going um and once again i think that may attract a different sort of clientele people that are going out to maybe revel and dare i say have fun and then you know become inebriated or drunk or so forth as opposed to someone who may let's for instance say say be coming back incredibly late from bala and walking down and feel like they need to have something to eat at maybe half 11 at night um you know a betting shop and a club very different places from a formal restaurant or somewhere you can take food to go so i just think it's important that that distinction for the comments that have been raised by councillor critchard are just um surfaced for the sub committee to take into consideration councillor critchard uh thank you yeah and i appreciate the um the distinction oh sorry i appreciate the distinction but i would again say is the one thing it was a slot rather than a betting shop and one of the things that probably happens is people go in and out individually that's the sort that's a different sort of setup as opposed to a restaurant where people come out in groups and it's the coming out in groups talking loudly and chatting and it doesn't make any difference i've got a case somewhere else doesn't make any difference whether alcohol is involved or not involved i don't think there's a problem uh it's everyone coming out noisily walking around being difficult and i mean we haven't even discussed rubbish which is another problem that occurs once you have takeaways with rub but i would just say is i appreciate that but i think the movement of the people is actually like to be increased by a restaurant and that's the issue for the local residents rather than the noise and the classic that was had a lot of problems movement of people so is that helpful no incredibly helpful and i as you've said it actually does give more clarity that the in and out of a slot machine place which essentially it's not betting in the sense but you are betting is very different from potential groups of people going out for a meal and the noise that's going to cause be amplified from one or two people how many people go in and on an individual level so thank you for highlighting that councillor critchard miss yeldon soon to be missing um thank you um i was just going to clarify the three um scenarios or examples i gave also i do not believe the individuals were under the influence of alcohol so i don't think the presence of this presence of alcohol is the rationale for the public nuisance in this occasion thank you for that clarity that that really is good for us to consider as um the licensing committee okay i'll get back to my my notes i now invite if there aren't any other actually i'm safe there aren't are there any other questions of clarification or on anything that has been stated i will now invite the attending parties to provide their closing remarks you will each have a maximum of two minutes to provide any summary comments before we formally conclude the public part of the meeting and i invite you to speak in the following order representation and then applicant so we'll go over to um miss yeldon and then to councillor critchard and then we'll come to the applicant thank you and it's thank you thank you everybody for kind of listening to our representation today and also taking consideration of councillor critchard who um has been very helpful throughout this process so really appreciate it um i think our main point is the late night license being until two o'clock in the morning and i think um when we first examined this we looked at the we achieved and we looked at the royal mahal where it is not two o'clock in the morning i think we are deeply concerned that the current requirements from the planning application do not necessarily um effectively address some of those bigger concerns so around the dispersal of people the um public the noise that comes out of the establishment so i think for us the main aim here would really be to not have something extended until two o'clock in the morning because i think that by its very definition doesn't create public nuisance if people can't be about to create that public nuisance i won't go into much further detail on that i think it's quite straightforward and self-explanatory thank you for that representation mr yeldon councillor critchard do you have anything to say in closing uh yeah thanks very much um i'll try and summarize what i'm going to say first of all i think yep this should be ideally refused the late night license should be refused if the can if the committee are minded to agree i would only recommend they ever consider agreeing in part weekend and if they are minded to agree i think we need very tight conditions on dispersal noise and how that's managed so that would be making sure that people stay in the restaurant until um they one person goes out to collect the car only one person that's there's i mean i think miss hopkins can probably find what the dispersal policy was for the classic i'd go for something absolutely similar uh i would recommend dormer a door person on the i know it's unusual but because it's late um and i would uh also suggest that the license doesn't come into play until the planning issues have been resolved because actually i think that and that would actually be a good thing from the applicant's perspective because i think the applicant needs to show that they consider that this is in a residential area and they would like to be a good neighbor and i'm sure that's one of those things that all applicants should consider so that's my position i don't want you to grant it and if you are going to grant it tied to conditions thank you councillor critchard uh mr bishop i saw a hand up i don't know if it was a legacy legacy hand or i do just maybe for parity for for you know for transparency if there was it was more it was more guidance really um you love a bit of guidance please i'm doing my best excuse me um so yeah again as i said earlier in terms of the planning you can't um you can't as a committee grant and subject to the planning coming into force they're different legislation so if you were to grant it would be grant and planning enforcement would stop something happening until such time with the plan as the planning was in force um the other thing to mention in relation to um door supervision and obviously uh the idea of effectively somebody having to accompany you to your car um what the committee has to do when they're making these decisions is to make a decision which is both appropriate and proportionate okay and so you have to bear that in mind such a condition would be a little bit onerous on the operation premises um so i just put that there in your mind for the committee to think about when then if they have to make the decision thank you mr bishop um i do have a question i'm sorry it's just come to me but what is the the now it's being refitted and it's two shops what is the capacity it's probably in the the the minutes somewhere but actually as councillor critchard had made that statement now it makes me think what is the capacity of we're hoping for mr malik so before you go into your closing statements to ensure that you have the appropriate time for yourself to give closing remarks could you just um yeah kindly share what the capacity of the restaurant wants all of this refurb and all of it should the let pregnant should the use change of use license be granted what would be the full capacity of the restaurant that could potentially be open to two o'clock in the morning if we were if we were going to give you the license late license yes that's right um the total seating capacity at the moment when it's fully operational would be about up to 50 seats so we won't be more than that sorry 50 or 250 no 50 it's not a lot 50 yeah 50 seats yeah okay okay thank you for that clarity that's very useful information all right so no other questions and if you would like to speak now mr malik with your closing remarks you have two minutes thank you i'd just like to point out what councillor critchard said regarding the applicant being a good neighbor and obviously making sure the planning and everything is addressed to make sure we're doing our part like i said we've done everything we've done from our side we put the planning in we've resolved the refuge issue we're trying our best to make sure what we do as a business as ourselves we're doing the best we can to minimize any nuisance what nuisance is caused by any other business is out of our control that's something the local enforcement police or they need to address if the police do turn up and tell residents to or people to walk down certain roads that's nothing we can control that's obviously them dispersing people as quickly as possible so obviously we can't control that but anything that happens from our side we're going to try our best to obviously resolve obviously what cancer preacher said having people or staff escorting members of public to the cause it's only a certain limit you can do that up to but we're going to try our best we'll have a people at the door to address people not to make too much noise outside the shop to get to the car as soon as possible because obviously they need to make sure people leave safely and as quickly as possible and safely and anyone parking inappropriately are like ideally outside the shop and drop on the curbs those will be restricted as well they'll be told to park appropriately in a proper parking bay so staff will make sure people are not doing something against the law in essence and in terms of late night application they are the premises along the street mainly takeaways that have got approval since 2 a.m. and again like I said those are takeaways so that's a different type of food trade in and out in and out so there's more nuisances more noise and there's more people people people going in and out as we are a restaurant there's obviously going to be like I said previously in the start it's more of a eating so people are going in the sitting down spending mostly on takeaways so they could be the reason for nuisance I'm not saying they are but ours as we are a restaurant so it's completely different scenario and obviously different kind of environment and setting so it's more family based and more dining experience so I think based on that that's all I have to say thank you very much thank you Mr Malik I just would like to say just for parity you had said though that this is a potential place for people to pick up food from and for food to be delivered from like so I wouldn't want the the committee to be misled that's a restaurant and then you can go and deliveroo sorry any of these are just uber eats any of these delivery places at one and get it because a concern is not just people leaving the restaurant it is mopeds and delivery drivers at those late times they do make a nuisance so I just wanted to be very clear do not mislead us by saying oh it's going to be family restaurant and then actually people start finding at 1 1 32 o'clock in the morning lots of delivery people or whoever so you can tell which which firm I use going in and out because I think that that's dishonest so whilst you know you may have intentions if you are going to have a broader plan then don't try and stick to we're just going to be a restaurant and actually in six months time we see it on delivery for one o'clock in the morning because that would you know be quite egregious to Councillor Critchard and Missy Eldon and other residents who are under the impression if they're watching this live this evening that it's a family restaurant so I just think that's important to add because we will be considering everything but I take into consideration if you are allowed to have people coming and going at two o'clock in the morning or one o'clock in the morning there's no reason you would not because you would be allowed to do so so I just think it's important we state that okay at this point if we have no further questions and no further clarification I'd really like to say thank you to everybody that concludes this part of the meeting the decision the decision reasons that any legal guidance given during a subcommittee's committee's discussion that has informed their decision will be confirmed in writing together with information about any rights of appeal within five working days I'd like to thank Missy Eldon and her lovely fiancee I'd like to thank Councillor Critchard I'd like to thank the officers and fellow councillors for being here members of the licensing subcommittee the democratic services officer and legal advisor we will now join a separate confidential meeting to make the decision so may I say everybody if I was a teacher I'd say have a really pleasant evening Missy Eldon thank you and your future husband for taking the time to join us this evening we really do appreciate when we have residents that you know care about the area and have questions that allows us to make informed decisions Mr. Malik we do appreciate the new businesses coming into the area so we thank you for making the application as well and Councillor Critchard as always it's a pleasure to see you being so active for the residents and active for yourself so have a pleasant evening everybody lovely thank you thanks everyone bye bye thank you bye bye now thank you
Summary
Tooting Karahi and Company Limited's application for a new premises licence for Butkarahi, to allow them to sell takeaway food until 2am was granted subject to conditions about waste disposal, and the management of noise and crowds outside the restaurant. The meeting considered objections to the application from local residents Belinda Yeldon and Thomas Southwell, and from Councillor Anna-Marie Critchard, on behalf of residents.
Application
Tooting Karahi and Company Limited applied for a new premises licence to allow the Butkarahi restaurant at 26A-26B Upper Tooting Road, Tooting, to sell late night refreshment between the hours of 11pm and 2am every day. The application also requested that the restaurant be allowed to open from 8am to 2am every day. The applicant's agent, Mohamed Malik, said that the restaurant had a maximum capacity of 50 people, and would primarily be used for people to eat in, though he acknowledged that 10% of the business was expected to be takeaway sales, and that food could also be ordered from delivery companies.
Change of Use
The restaurant is located in a building that previously contained two units, a takeaway restaurant and a betting shop. Mr Malik told the meeting that planning enforcement officers had told his client that the change of use from two units into one larger restaurant would need planning permission. Wandsworth Council's Statement of Licensing Policy says that licensing decisions should be made independently from planning decisions:
Planning permission and a premises licence are separate authorisations and both have different objectives which must be decided separately.
However, Councillor Critchard, who represents residents in the area, said:
I would uh also suggest that the license doesn't come into play until the planning issues have been resolved because actually i think that and that would actually be a good thing from the applicant's perspective because i think the applicant needs to show that they consider that this is in a residential area and they would like to be a good neighbor and i'm sure that's one of those things that all applicants should consider.
Refuse
The original application attracted objections from the council's planning team, who noted that a change of use application would be needed, and also expressed concern about the management of refuse and waste from the business. The committee report noted that the applicant had entered into a waste disposal contract, and this was confirmed by Mr Malik at the meeting. Ms Yeldon asked if photographic evidence of the applicant's compliance with waste disposal regulations was available, but was told this information was not available at the meeting.
Consultation
Ms Yeldon told the meeting that she did not believe the applicant had correctly displayed a notice in the restaurant window, as required under Regulation 25 of The Licensing Act (2003). However, Julie Hopkins, the council's lead licensing officer, told the meeting that a licensing officer had visited the property on 19 December 2024 and had taken photographs which showed the notice correctly displayed. Ms Yeldon responded that she had photographic evidence of her own which showed that the notice was not displayed. She said:
I think the trick in that is the fact that there's no opportunity for them to, for a decision to be made with all of the information available which makes it quite a tricky decision.
She also noted that the applicant had only advertised the application in the South London Weekly newspaper.
Public Nuisance
Ms Yeldon said that her primary concern was the potential for the restaurant to contribute to public nuisance in the area. She said:
As a residential area at two o'clock in the morning, I think there's a big question on do people need to be able to eat at 2am in an establishment both in and out and then it's just also recognising that the council doesn't appear to fully being able to assess either through limited information or not asking for more information about public safety, protecting children from harm and public nuisance.
Councillor Critchard echoed these concerns, saying:
my suggestion is that the late night opening actually will mean there is public nuisance... i think that it's inappropriate in this area for a restaurant to be open later than 11 o'clock for anything... so my suggestion is this is not the place to have late night opening because it's a residential area we have previous experience i know that applicants always say well we don't know it was our premises but actually we know that if people are there late in that area they cause noise and i'm afraid whatever mr malik says that is unfortunate and that is not what my residents wish to do so i would urge the committee to reconsider the late night license and if you are going to grant it tied to conditions.
Mr Malik told the meeting that staff at the restaurant would be instructed to ask customers to leave the restaurant quietly, and to move away from the restaurant quickly.
Councillor Lawless said:
i just want to ask um can you elaborate a bit more on some of the local um nuisance issues that you've had um because i think it might be useful for context in the area.
Ms Yeldon responded by describing a number of incidents that had taken place on the street outside her home, including an occasion when she said she had been sworn at in the street, and another occasion on which she said the police had moved a crowd of people from the end of the road to the street outside her house, where they had continued to make noise. She said:
i think it's really hard to say if it's one business or another because we don't we don't stand outside the business waiting to see who's left which business and then decide who's decided to come onto our street surprisingly at one o'clock in the morning yeah in bed.
Councillor Brooks noted that Ms Yeldon's examples pre-dated the opening of the Butkarahi restaurant. He also drew the committee's attention to the recent adoption of a cumulative impact assessment for the area, which may be relevant to the application.
Closing Remarks
In her closing remarks, Ms Yeldon said that she was concerned that the conditions attached to planning applications were not sufficient to mitigate the nuisance caused by late-night businesses. She said:
i think we are deeply concerned that the current requirements from the planning application do not necessarily um effectively address some of those bigger concerns so around the dispersal of people the um public the noise that comes out of the establishment.
Councillor Critchard suggested that if the restaurant was to be granted a licence, it should only be allowed to open until 2am at weekends, and should be subject to tight conditions about the management of noise, crowds, and deliveries.
In his closing remarks, Mr Malik said:
we're trying our best to make sure what we do as a business as ourselves we're doing the best we can to minimize any nuisance what nuisance is caused by any other business is out of our control... anyone parking inappropriately are like ideally outside the shop and drop on the curbs those will be restricted as well they'll be told to park appropriately in a proper parking bay so staff will make sure people are not doing something against the law in essence.
He also argued that restaurants were less likely to contribute to public nuisance than takeaways, as customers tended to stay inside the premises for longer. He said:
in terms of late night application they are the premises along the street mainly takeaways that have got approval since 2 a.m. and again like I said those are takeaways so that's a different type of food trade in and out in and out so there's more nuisances more noise and there's more people people people going in and out as we are a restaurant there's obviously going to be like I said previously in the start it's more of a eating so people are going in the sitting down spending mostly on takeaways so they could be the reason for nuisance I'm not saying they are but ours as we are a restaurant so it's completely different scenario and obviously different kind of environment and setting so it's more family based and more dining experience so I think based on that that's all I have to say thank you very much.
Attendees
- Ethan Brooks
- Katrina Ffrench
- Sean Lawless
- Caroline Sharkey
- Guy Bishop
- Michael Flowers
- Rebecca Hickey
Documents
- Agenda frontsheet 12th-Feb-2025 19.00 Licensing Sub-Committee other
- Public reports pack 12th-Feb-2025 19.00 Licensing Sub-Committee other
- 25-35 - Report other
- 25-35 - Redacted Bundle other
- Licensing Sub-Committee - Supplementary Agenda 12th-Feb-2025 19.00 Licensing Sub-Committee agenda
- Applicant Supplementary - A
- Applicant Supplementary - B
- Applicant Supplementary - C
- Licensing Sub-Committee - Supplementary Agenda 12th-Feb-2025 19.00 Licensing Sub-Committee agenda
- Applicant Supplementary - C