Transcript

Okay. So, good evening, everyone. I'm councillor Joseph O. Gundamoren, the chair of Living in Hackney Scrutiny Commission. So, welcome all. This meeting is being recorded and live streamed now. Please, can you all keep your microphones on mute? You can use your laptop. Yep. You can have your laptop. Or is that your phone? Oh. Okay. Let's try again. It might be your laptop. Make sure you use it, yeah. No, you can use your laptop. Oh, you don't want to use it. Okay. Okay. All right. Fine. Yeah, so, again, yeah, please, can you all keep your microphones on mute throughout the meeting? This will prevent audio feedback. If you'd like to speak, raise your hands to get my full attention and... And I'll... What's it? Oh. And I'll call you in. So, the chat function must not be used to have conversations with other participants or to provide personal information. All chat is recorded as this is a formal meeting. Please only use the chat function to alert me that you wish to speak, to raise points of order, or to report tech problems. Officers will assist you. This is a formal meeting of Hackney Council. Please note, the press may be in attendance. The rights of the press and public to record and film the meeting will apply. So, we are in chorus for the commission. I've received apologies from Councillor Joseph, Councillor Samarta. I think we've received apologies by late in the fall, Councillor Selman. Are there any other apologies for absence? Okay. Okay. So, if there are members on the commission in attendance virtually, they should say so on the text, but I don't believe there are any. Nope. Okay. So, agenda item two, urgent items and order of business. Are there any urgent items? Nope. Okay. Agenda item three, declaration of interest. Are there any declarations of interest? Nope. Okay. Attendees to the carnival. Okay. Agenda item four. So, the commission is keen to understand the economic, cultural, and social value of Hackney carnival activities. And how the council can work in partnership with carnival stakeholders to ensure that resources are targeted appropriately to develop an alternative culture offer. Discussion is seen as timely, given that cabinet agreed at its meeting on the 27th of January, 2025, to discontinue the use of the neighborhood community infrastructure levy funding to deliver Hackney Carnival. And will now look to consider options for identifying external funding, including sponsorship and advertising opportunities, or developing an alternative program that celebrates carnival culture. To inform the scrutiny process, the commission also held a focus group with carnival groups to hear about their views and experiences and what they might like to see happen going forward. The key insight of that session has been shared with attendees in advance of the meeting. Before I introduce our guests, I just wanted to remind everyone that it is not within the commission's gifts to review or reverse the decision. The commission's, yeah, reverse the decision made by cabinet in January. This would have to have been dealt with through the call-in process within the specified timescales which have now passed. We are instead focused on bringing together information and views at an early stage to understand what the impacts of discontinuing funding will be, how they might be mitigated, and what the alternative options for carnival activities might be. So attending from arts and culture, we've got councillor Chris Kennedy, cabinet member for health, adult social care, voluntary sector and culture, Ricardo Hyatt, group director, climate, homes and economy, Petra Roberts, assistant director, culture, libraries and heritage, Andrew Ellaby, culture and heritage manager, and Karina Antropos, sorry if I, is she here, is she here, oh she, not, oh okay, yeah, cultural lead. Okay, so representatives of representing carnival groups, we've got Marva Antone, tropical lions, Petina Fernandez, para-carnival, Stephen Montgomery, urban touch, I'd like to welcome you all to the meeting, I'd now like to invite councillor Kennedy and officers to begin their presentation, which supplements the agenda papers published in advance of the meeting. Thank you very much chair, you've laid it out and introduced the theme for tonight very well, thank you. The crucial thing we want to try and get out of tonight, and actually it's start, you started to lay the foundations of it chair in your meeting with the carnival groups last week, is seizing on the key things that carnival provides for the community and for our populations, and trying to work out how an alternative, possibly smaller, whatever we may do in the future can hold on to the key things that we want to preserve from those, those absolute key community benefits, and if we can do them without a big chunk of council funding, using the smaller grant pot that we've secured for the carnival arts groups, and thinking about what carnival a parade, if there is a parade, might look like in the future, and how whatever that looks like secures those community benefits, in the best way possible for our communities, and we have put together a little slideshow that Andrew is going to take us through, just by way of a start, I hope you've had a chance to look at the papers, we tried to lay out as far as possible, the history, the breakdown of the costs, and what we think may be the difficulties of securing that amount of money for a one-off street parade because of where the costs go, but we can go into that perhaps in more detail later, but the three questions that you wanted to ask here, absolutely the right ones, what are the key benefits for the community, how can we mitigate against the council not being able to put the money in, and how do we do that work going forward to use what there is out there to try and secure the best benefits in the future, thank you. Thanks Councillor Kennedy, does that work okay, I've not used one of these before, great, so my name is Andrew Ellaby, I'm the culture and heritage manager, and the cultural development team has been working on delivering Hackney Carnival alongside Carnival stakeholders since 2012-2013, obviously has a much longer history than that in Hackney, and Councillor Kennedy's outlined the purpose of this presentation in looking at the impact around socio-economic, but also community, impacts of external funding Sorry, sorry, are you able to move the mic a bit closer to you? Closer, yeah, yeah, yeah Sorry, I've also got a frog in my throat, okay, is that better? Yeah, great, thank you So yeah, we're looking at, the presentation looks at ways of mitigating some of the impacts within the resources and capacity that we have, because we're doing how we do that together in a co-designed approach, and also looking at suggestions of how we work together going forward, and sorry, I'm already on the slide ahead of me, and so the first slide is just to look at the context of not funding Hackney Carnival in terms of the scale and size of it, and so the financial commitment to deliver Carnival has grown significantly over a short period of time, and that's demonstrated by it growing from an investment of around £258,000 in 2018, and to around a million pounds which was budgeted for Carnival in 2024. As an open ticketed public event, the council has a responsibility to providing a safe event for everybody involved, and when numbers can potentially exceed 100,000 people, the costs rise alongside that as well, and there are other reasons for the the increase of costs, and that is also around inflation and the cost of living as well. Next slide. So this slide really just outlines the high-level finances of Carnivals from 2018 to 2024. Bearing in mind that 2022 never actually happened due to the death of the Queen, and that the chart there is estimated costs of Carnival in that year. What it shows overall is that the cost of delivering Carnival is relevant to the scale and the necessary infrastructure to ensure safety on the day, as well as the amount of people expected to attend. What this doesn't show is in 2017, around 30,000 people attended, and that was between 2017 and 2018, that was the first big jump in in terms of figures. Next slide. This is a picture from Tropical Isles in Carnival 2024. The opening picture was from Soka Massive, and I didn't mention that, but all beautiful pictures from this year's event. So looking forward on a short-term basis, we've made a successful request at NSIL of £70,000 to support Carnival and Carnival Arts in 2025 across Hackney. How this will be spent will be co-designed with Hackney's Carnival stakeholder groups, of which we hope this meeting is going to be the beginning, and we will obviously find ways to develop ideas, concepts, and to use that money in the most meaningful way. It gives us a window to co-develop something in the short term, but we will need longer-term strategies for Carnival, which are going to take more thinking. Next slide. So this is really just looking at some high-level cultural community and economic impacts. So I'm not going to read through all of them, but it gives you an idea of what some of the key impacts around not funding a Carnival from NSIL would be. So you have things like lack of visibility of key communities involved in Carnival across Hackney, but also things like reduced opportunities for cohesion, reduced opportunities for employment, and audience data also demonstrates it would most impact Hackney residents from non-white backgrounds. There is also evidence from the 2019... Sorry, does this keep cutting in and out, or is that just me? Okay. Okay, it's very weird. So there's also evidence from the 2019 social and economic impact report that was commissioned that there is an economic impact of around about £1.3 million pounds when Carnival was its largest scale, which was in 2019, where around 88,000 people attended. So that's obviously a clearly important aspect to consider, although it is a short-term income for some local businesses. Next slide. So this slide is a video, and it's put together of Vox Pops and images from the Carnival in

1. I think if we're talking about the impacts of Carnival, it's most important to hear it from the people who attend Carnival, and for the people who participate in Carnival, and for the people that come out onto the streets on the day. So this was commissioned long before we got into this position here, but it does give you an insight of people's thoughts from 2024 on the day, which I thought would be useful for people to hear. It's about three or four minutes long. I think it's really important to say that Hackney is a place for everyone. It's so diverse. Our people, we speak 89 different languages in Hackney, and this is a moment where we can kind of celebrate all those different cultures coming together and just embrace it all and enjoy it all. I've been going to Hackney Carnival since I was a teenager, so that's been like over 10 years. I love that it brings different cultures together, the children together, the community. I don't care what I look like, if Carnival's me, it means Carnival. Hackney Carnival is one of the best places to be. It's one of the greatest places to come and vibe with people. You always meet people you know. The atmosphere is great, the people, the food, just everything in general. Even if it rains, it doesn't matter. I'm thrilled that Hackney Carnival is on because I feel like I'm seeing a different side of Hackney that I haven't been able to see before. Yeah, I just feel like it's a very happy atmosphere. And yeah, all the families out and all the kids just look so happy, having so much fun. We were all in lockdown for so long, so I feel like whenever something like this can happen, there's always a lot of joy and just people being happy to be out and like, you know, kind of sharing like their cultures and the community together. If you're just joining us, welcome! All that good stuff on this Sunday afternoon to the Disco Local Stage and Hackney Carnival 2024. All we want you to do is come true and catch a little fire with us, yeah? It's very fun. The dances were quite cool and generally quite fun to be here. It's good because lots of different cultures come together for the dancing and it brings together like different beliefs and different kind of religions together. It's quite nice to see. So it's actually incredible that Hackney Carnival is providing a platform for new and upcoming talent in Hackney, but it's also a great way for us to remind young people that they matter to us. Their talents matter to us and their talents matter to the wider community. Hackney Carnival is a great way to bring cultures together, to find out about different people, different foods, different stores, and it's just a great day. So whether it's rain or shine, everyone's coming together. We love it. It's just beautiful. It's outside, fresh air, everyone comes out, all communities here, brings people together. Sound in the air, vibrations in the air. It's the first time for me to experience this you know, carnival. I really love Hackney. These things that make you know, Hackney is amazing, isn't it? People, music, culture, that's what the amazing thing happening in Hackney. What do you think? I agree. You can see people waving with us, people like smiling to us, the friendliness that we receive as well, the welcome, that's very important. They come to us, like take pictures, no doubt we are Chinese, you know, it's really emotional. I've been going to Hackney Carnival more or less from since it started, and people come from wide and far to come here. It's not just Hackney, but it does bring people together, different diverse groups, different ethnic cultures and what have you, which is nice. The best thing about Carnival is the music. You will love the music, the costume, the atmosphere, the energy, the vibe, and everything. Great, thank you. I hope that was useful to see. So the next slide we have, so just thinking about how we mitigate the impacts together. So whilst we know that £70,000 is not going to replicate the effects of a full carnival or mitigate the impacts of not having a carnival on the streets, it's also a significant award and one that can have meaningful and strategic impacts of carnival and carnival arts across 25 and 26. There are a few ideas that we're putting forward as a starting point to address some of the impacts around cultural and community aspects, and they're listed above. But obviously, as I said before, this is just a starting point and we expect and we want these to be co-designed and done in collaboration with the Carnival Stakeholder Group and other stakeholders. But they include things like summer schools and grants or awards programmes, a one-off event, but also more strategic things like organisational development or looking at strategic leadership opportunities. So there's lots of different ways that that money could be used, and also it doesn't have to be used in a singular way. It could be used in a package or portfolio of approaches. Next slide. And these are some additional thoughts and ideas again as conversation starters around how we can develop some collective strategic approaches and include things like profiling carnival to other boroughs and events across London, exploring other opportunities for fundraising and helping each other make the case through a better understanding of our social and community impacts and reach. We've also begun to look at mitigating the reduced financial capacity of the council to fund carnival and how or where some of this can be replaced. We begin to look at commercial sponsorship and fundraising through trusts and foundations. It's fair to say that both of these opportunities are opportunities but come with significant challenges as well which we can look to address. Earlier today actually we met with Arts Council England and we had a good conversation with them who are very supportive of what we do at Hackney Carnival but they did explain that they have their own funding and financial problems as well so it's about looking at how we work together with supporters. Next slide. This is Paracarnival at Hackney Carnival 2024. Next slide. Next slide. So just to come in towards the end of the presentation just looking and thinking about how we work together going forward as previously highlighted we are committed to working together on developing a meaningful program for 25 that is relevant to our carnival stakeholders for local communities and residents across Hackney. We'll need new models of co-design and collaboration to be able to do this and we hope to develop those together with our stakeholder group. We commit to having the things which are listed here so in terms of the continued conversations around sustainable funding solutions and continued conversation around Carnival itself but also supporting each other and addressing new models of working together. Next slide. So this is the last slide and it's really just to round up some of the key points which we've been going through. So in conclusion Hacking Council does need to make savings of 67 million pounds over the next three years but we are committed to the development and support of carnival arts within the borough and within the limitations of available finances and capacity. We have secured the 70,000 pounds for events and activities in 25-26 and Hackney council rethink this commitment to undertake all of the co-design with the carnival stakeholder group and where relevant other stakeholders. And the last point there is just to say that we are also will be supporting and looking at additional fundraising and opportunities where those are appropriate. That's the end of the presentation. Thank you. Thank you Andrew for your presentation. So I'd now like to invite the carnival group representative to give their presentations. As a reminder you will each have up to five minutes to present. So can I first invite Marva from Tropical Eyes Isles to begin your presentation? Oh sorry okay can I just interrupt before we go any further. I just did the declaration that I have to make. I know Steve doesn't remember me. I'm declaring an interest in respect for Steve. He played a DJ set up my brother's wedding. He's a very good friend of one of my brothers. Okay that'll be recorded. Okay so we're just getting your presentation up. Shall I start? Yep so just let us know when you want to go to the next slide and we'll go over to you. Good evening. My name is Marva Antoine and I have been I'm speaking on behalf of Tropical Eyes, a proud Hackney-based award-winning national portfolio organization. For the past 25 years we have been at the heart of Hackney Carnival. A celebration is more than just a parade. It is a lifeline for thousands of children, young people, young people, families who participate each year. Hackney Carnival represents a gateway into creative industries as well as a beacon of cultural heritage, inclusion, economy, economic opportunities and social cohesion. As you see in tonight's papers on the 27th of January, the cabinet agreed as part of the council's budget savings that it should no longer set aside half a million per annum to fund a carnival in Hackney for the foreseeable future. This decision will be felt by future generations if we do not unite now and agree to an alternative cultural program that continues to celebrate Hackney's diverse communities. Propical Eyes believe that there's a way forward and we urge Hackney Council to support our recommendation. First, a Hackney Carnival Trust, a proven model used by organizations like Hackney Empire Shoreditch Trust, Notting Hill Carnival Trust, ensuring long-term sustainability with governance by all stakeholders. Second, provide a permanent home, a dedicated Hackney Centre for Culture where we can deliver year-round activities of carnival arts excellence. Third, help us secure alternative funding and sponsorship. Losing Hackney Carnival will affect not just the 18 carnival groups and thousands of participants, but also young people, vulnerable adults, local artists, businesses and residents. Over 70% of our participants reported improved mental health and wellbeing from carnival activities, while engagement in physical activities has increased by 70% through dance, music, costume-making and rehearsals. Carnival is a space for recovery, self-expression and hope, and the economic benefits are felt across the borough. The half a million pounds invested into Hackney Carnival generates an average over three million for the local economy, but this is about more than just money. With ongoing cuts access to use services, young people already have too few safe spaces in Hackney. Carnival provides that space. Through our national portfolio organization program, Tropical Eyes has helped over a thousand individuals build careers in the creative industries. As this, as successive stories speak for themselves, one of our members battling chronic illness found strength and purpose through carnival. Paige Kakey went from a Hackney Empire audition to a successful career in music and film. Miss Jane, who started with us very early, at the age of 11, which was last year, won her first Black British Theatre Award. In 2024, Tropical Eyes engaged over 2,700 children through our Hackney Museum partnership, ensuring that our cultural heritage continues to inspire future generations. We hope you listen to our recommendations today and agree with us in shaping the alternative culture program as we are ready to deliver that celebrates Hackney's diverse communities. We feel confident that the suggested model of a Hackney Carnival Trust, the allocation of a permanent home that all of us stakeholders can manage as Hackney's Centre for Culture, as well. With all year round activities of carnival arts excellence, plus your support in securing alternative funding and sponsorship strategies will be the way to ensure carnival lives on for many generations to come. Carnival is not just an event, it is a movement, it transforms lives. Let's ensure it continues for generations to come, thank you. Hello. So I'm a co-founder of Paracarnival, but before we speak about Paracarnival, we would like to mention, Pantonic Steel Orchestra created a presentation and we just would like to mention some of it because they can't be here tonight. So we'll read it. Just to show how deep and rooted carnival can be. So Pantonic was founded in 1888 by the late Big Yearwood, a proud member of the Windrush generation. Pantonic has been central to Hackney Carnival for decades. Bigs, a band maker, musician and co-founder, dedicated his life to preserving Caribbean culture in Hackney. And we have a couple of testimonials. One from his great granddaughter. I think it's Tinie. Although I never met my grandfather, his legacy lives on through my involvement with Pantonic. Playing a steel pen has connected me to my heritage. And Hackney Carnival is where I feel the most pride. It's not just about music, it's where I understand my roots and feel truly part of something bigger. I feel like I'm part of the future continuing his legacy. Okay, there's another one. I've been playing Pant since I was six and now my 15 years old son plays too. Music has been my therapy, especially as a battle of depression. Still Pant gives me focus, purpose and peace. Carnival is where I truly feel at home, surrounded by people who understand the power of music and culture. It's a space where I can heal and connect. Thank you. Now we will speak about Para Carnival and its impact. And also we'll try to answer a little bit of the third question. So we are all inclusive group and we focus mostly on the most vulnerable and maybe the marginalized in our society in Hackney. Yeah, so I'll read as well because we serve as a creative platform for socio-economically disadvantaged and marginalized people with physical, cognitive, emotional and sensory differences. So we do also focus on people with special needs or learning difficulty. And something that hasn't been mentioned in the loss and the impact is that our program extends beyond artistic expression that includes movement-based therapy, dance and physical engagement, which improve both mental and physical health. So for many participants, especially these with those with disability, our workshops offer a crucial form of exercises, supporting mobility, coordination and wellbeing. So given the measurable health and social benefits we provide, we think that maybe we could also get funding from social care, not just the artistic funding that you've got, but social care and also anti-social behavior because we do work with young at risk, especially urban touch there. But yes. So the loss of community and cultural expression. Hackney Carnival is a platform for disability culture and disability art. And it's so important for us because we've seen so many times where disability group put up a performance, but nobody comes and sees them, not even their family. And it's not because they're not loved, but it's just it puts so much strength on on their family basically. So it can be so difficult to care for a disabled child. And so Hackney Carnival, and we've seen it so many times, is the only place where the people with disabilities perform and are seen. We have some testimonial where they say, oh, I saw my auntie and my neighbor, and I was so proud. And somebody said, oh, I feel like my life took a corner. Yes. It's a fantastic stage for us. Somebody we've had so many times, some people saying it's the best day of my life because it means so much for people that can't be seen. And so, okay, we mentioned it's support for mental health and wellbeing. Yes. Also, if we don't have a carnival, it puts account carnival groups at risk of not getting funding because it's often a great source of match funding. And also, when you write your application, you say we're going to we do all these activities and end up in Hackney Carnival, then it's a great case for getting some extra money. So not having carnival might make us lose some funding. And yeah. And there was, yeah, we also provide training for people with special needs. We give them jobs as well. So this kind of things. And let's go to the third question. So in 2024, you budgeted 1 million, but actually only 6,000, 7,000 were spent. So it wasn't 1 million. But the most outrageous thing is that only 6% of the 7,000 went to the carnival groups. So there is no carnival without us, but we only get 6%. A lot of us works for free, spend our times. We make costumes in our living rooms. We store the costumes under our bed. I mean, it's just, this is, this is an outrage. I mean, 6% of the total. And we thought of 7% of some alternative to some alternative to create a carnival that would cost less. So we thought maybe if we co-design an alternative parade route and performance, maybe in a park, maybe we take a shorter route or we don't have to close so many roads. We could compare some costs. So make, for example, the marquee more competitive. So instead of taking the one that we always use, maybe we get some cheaper ones. And yes, if we had a cultural space where we could all work and deliver workshops, that would make an enormous difference for us. That's, yeah, that would be great. Yeah, and I know Mava, you're working on it. And that would be just, I think for a lot of us, a dream come true. And then you could really deliver to the, to the community. Yeah, I think that's, I hope it's okay. Thank you very much. Okay. All right. Thank you, Bertina, for your presentation. So can I now invite Stephen from Urban Touch to begin your presentation? Yeah. I don't know if you've got it, you can put it up. I did send something through. I don't know if it was too late. Well, we'll have a look now. Yeah, apologies. We received the report, but we haven't had an opportunity to go through it. So it wouldn't be appropriate for us to put on the screen, but you can read from it. Yep. No, that's no problem. Basically, I'm Steve from Urban Touch, but what I'm going to actually talk to you about is not just about my group. I'm actually speaking for a majority of the stakeholder groups. And I want to thank Marva and Bettina for all their work they've just put in and explain stuff because, to be honest with you, 6% of 700,000 doesn't do much. Basically, Hackney has grown into one of the most significant cultural events in the borough, bringing together diverse communities, fostering cultural pride, and generating substantial economic benefits. However, the recent Scrutiny Commission decision have raised concern over the sustainability of the event due to financial constraints. While Hackney has pledged the support of 70,000... Sorry, sorry, Steve. You just said something there. You said the Scrutiny's decision, it wasn't our decision, it's actually Cabinet's decision. Oh, sorry, my mistake. Just to clear that up. Yeah. Okay. My mistake. Yeah. Whilst the Council is pledging 70,000 for this year, there is no clear indication of continued funding beyond this point. I'm not going to try to read the whole report because it will be a bit too much. This report presents an evident-based argument addressing the key concerns raised by Hackney Council, backed by quantitative data from previous reports, stakeholders' feedback, and economic impact assessments. For this, what we're going to go through will be the numbers of 2019 because, unfortunately, we haven't got 2024. It looked like it might have just recently come out, but we don't have access to that data. So, the impact of not having the Council funding the carnival group. The discontinuation of Hackney carnival funding would have far-reaching consequences across multiple sectors, including the carnival groups, the wider culture sector, local businesses, and the general public. The carnival groups and performers. Hackney carnival provides a vital platform for artistic expression, heritage preservation, and skills and development. 25 carnival groups participated in 2019, engaging thousands of local artists, dancers, and musicians. Over 120 participants from Hackney Caribbean elders Association and St. Joseph Hospice joined the 2019 procession, reducing social inclusion and fostering community engagement. Many carnival groups rely on the support for costume storage and participation space. This basically is because a lot of the groups don't have that funding. So, sometimes it's like working out in the flats. I know there are times when I've seen groups, including mine, have to work on the estates, actually out there and getting banners out and doing stuff, going in the local park and using that, because at the times we don't have the funding to use any buildings. And when the funding does come, then we make great use of that. The absence of the council, the absence of the carnival would leave a significant gap in opportunities for inclusion, empowerment, engagement for vulnerable people in our community, including people with special needs. Because it's quite a lot that my colleagues have already said, I don't want to just keep regurgitating a lot of what's already been said. But I think one of the things we need to look at is that is that 3.24 million in gross value added GVA to the local comment, it generates that amount of money. And I think that's important for us to remember 75% of food related businesses in Hackney reported an increase in turnover on carnival day. 40% of trade owners said their sales were higher than their usual during Hackney carnival. 64% of town centre business agreed that the event had a positive impact on their revenue. I'm not going to go through the budget again because it's already been said. If we're looking at strategies for mitigating the impacts. If Hackney carnival is to continue to flourish, develop financial constraints, the collaborative approach between the council, carnival groups and the cultural sector and local businesses is essential. The key areas of support could include sponsorship and advertising. Hackney council currently lacks a structured approach to attracting corporate sponsors with targeted efforts. Private sector. Partnerships could provide substantial financial backing stall and vendor contributions increase the fees for commercial stores could help offset organization costs while still supporting local traders. Crowdfunding and grants. Crowdfunding and grants. Establishing crowdfunding initiative combined with grant application could diversify income sources. Targeted VIP areas. Introducing premium ticket zones with exclusive experiences could generate revenue without affecting the event's accessibility. A year round carnival hub. Creating a multi-use community cultural centre with workshops, a performance space and rental studios could provide a steady income stream while enhancing local engagement. In kind support from the council. Use of council old buildings. Many carnival groups struggle with affordable spaces for rehearsals like I mentioned earlier. Access to council old spaces would enable groups to generate income through costume hire and corporate commissions. Infrastructure assistance providing logistic support such as event infrastructure security and traffic management could reduce direct financial burdens. Increased funding. Increased funding transparency. A collaborative review of expenditure. Could identify cost saving measures without. Without compromising the event integrity. I don't have too much more. And now looking at stakeholders engagement in the future. The council has has has a critical role in shaping the future of Hackney carnival alongside community stakeholders. To ensure sustainability stakeholders recommend. Formation of a carnival hub. Establishing a central hub for carnival stakeholders to work collectively on fundraising planning and skills development. Encouraging collaboration between groups to share resources and knowledge. Providing round year round engagement activities to maintain public interest and revenue streams. Hackney carnival plays a vital role in the sustainability of small carnival groups. Providing them with a critical platform to securing funding. Hackney supports. Sorry, the support from Hackney carnival is particularly valuable for match funding. Strengthening their ability to access additional grants. Moreover, working towards a tangible end product. Hackney carnival itself enhances their funding prospects. Without the carnival, many of the smaller groups would struggle to secure funding elsewhere. Putting their survival at risk. One of the things that I would like to say that is. The groups don't get this funding to kind of go on. Once we lose those people we're working with, we may never get them back. Some of them are from NEET. Not in education and training. Some of them are hard to reach young people. That other people can't get access to, but we're able to. So these kind of people, it's important that we continue to work with them. Many of us work with children that are in social services. That are in fostering. We work with foster carers. And the conclusion. Hackney carnival is not just an event. It's a cultural gem that strengthens the borough's economic economy. Social fabric and creative sector. The decision to exclude carnival from the NCIL funding list. But provide a one-off 70,000 grant underscores the need for long-term strategic planning. Hackney council must take proactive steps to secure alternative funding. Provide in-kind support and establish sustainable financial models to keep Hackney carnival alive. Without this commitment, the borough risks losing not just a festival, but a vital pillar of its identity, economic growth and community spirit. Thank you. Thank you for your presentation, Stephen. So, I'd now like to invite commission members to ask any questions they may have of our guests. So, I'll shut myself off. Councillor Garber. Thank you and thank you to all of you for your presentations. I appreciate this. This is really difficult. You've all presented really, really well. So, thank you for coming this evening. My question to this group over here is to understand a bit about how the decision was made and what information and data gathering was done to make the decision of discontinuing the funding. So, what evidence was gathered? So, particularly, I'm interested in the data analysis, but really specifically, really want to understand the kind of equalities impact assessment, which is mentioned, but obviously, we didn't see it. But just if someone could speak to the evidence gathered. Yeah. I thought we were non-political. So, it's political in terms of just where the decision-making sits. The decision-making has to sit with the executive, so cabinet, and when you're looking at an in-year overspend of, well, we're at, what, 38 million pounds this year? You have to take decisions and look at all your spending and garner as much information as you can from your officers, which we did. And you'd have seen those proposals when they first came to this commission for scrutiny. You've scrutinized those proposals. We talked you through what we thought was, we recognized there was an impact on the communities that most benefit from carnival. We recognized in those papers, but actually, as our three guests have very eloquently put it, there is an impact. And of course, there is an impact from all the funding decisions that you take on some of the communities who you'd rather not be impacted by those decisions that you have to take. But we are in, effectively, financial crisis mode. So, I know where you're going, which is, this is going to have an impact on some of our most vulnerable communities, and so you shouldn't have done it. So, there weren't, there wasn't enough options for us in this financial year not to impact the people we would rather not impact by our decisions. Just to clarify, the meeting that Councillor Kennedy is referring to was a private briefing. We weren't able to share any of the information when it was shared with us. It wasn't a meeting in public. And at that meeting, I did stress that groups should have been involved earlier. I remember explicitly making that point, which leads me on to the next part. So, the first part of my question was, I feel like it would have been helpful for us to have seen the Equalities Impact Assessment because it wasn't shared with us. And it doesn't seem even just from the summary to have captured all the stuff we've heard this evening and we heard in the pre-meeting about the impact on young people, older people, NEET. I don't know if that was captured in the Equalities Impact Assessment. Yeah, I don't think it all was and you couldn't. And actually, we could have another 17 presentations tonight and they would all add more flavour and more grain to the people who are impacted by this decision. And you could keep going on the level of the impact and you could take it down to individuals, but there simply isn't the time or the resource to do that. And the point I was trying to make was that those difficult financial decisions have to operate on as much information as we have at the time and rely upon the fact that we are the elected representatives of the community elected to produce a balanced budget for this council to keep us going. And we use the information from the officers that they presented about because we've had reports on Carnival and what we know about Carnival and Carnival groups and the benefits of the community. And we use that and we balance it up against all the other options that come forward. Thank you. Is there a follow up? Do you want me to ask the other part? Yeah. Yeah. So the other part of my first question in this kind of looking back is to what extent the service engaged with, I've got a list, but kind of Carnival groups, residents and seldom heard communities, local businesses. And I wanted to add into that how you engage with the police around the costs of some of the things that we know have increased the costs. So just what kind of data gathering was done with those groups. I can hand over to officers for that about how we looked at our own Carnival assessment, not just in 24 actually, but when we looked at 17, 18 and 19. Because obviously we found increasing, increasing crowds brought increasing pressures on our streets. So I'll do my best to respond to that question. But can I just clarify, is that in terms of the planning of the Carnival or pertaining to the decision? Around the decision. Right. So how we've engaged with the police and around the decision. Sorry. Well, that was my bit that I've added because a large amount of the cost goes to the police and security is my understanding. Yeah. And the planning and not just the police, but the operational aspects. What discussions would have them about the scale or maybe how the approach to policing is done. Like in terms of bringing costs down, like if that conversation was happening. And then the major part of the question is how are Carnival groups engaged ahead of this going to Cabinet? Yeah. So in terms of the first part of your question and the planning of the Carnival, it's about scale. So you saw one of the slides earlier setting out how the Carnival has grown over a number of years. So, you know, the cost of the operation is reflective of the scale and size of the Carnival. So we have conversations with the police throughout in terms of the planning to understand, you know, what's going to be needed depending on, you know, the size and, you know, number of people that we're expecting to attend. So it's partly based on, you know, previous numbers that we've seen, but also, you know, thinking about, you know, what we may expect on the day itself. So, I mean, that's hopefully that, you know, answers answers your question. In terms of engaging with the Carnival groups, I think, I mean, we've already acknowledged, you know, how we've arrived at the decision. And I think it's fair to say that it's part of the reason why we have identified funding for 25-26 in order to work with the Carnival groups to co-design and develop what comes next. I think there's an important point here to make in that, you know, the council isn't, you know, discontinuing Carnival. That's not the decision that's been taken here. The decision that's been taken is, in line with the financial challenges that we have, is to continue to work with the Carnival groups to try and find a sustainable funding group for Carnival. And, you know, that's what we're committing to doing. Hearing from the Carnival groups here, I think pretty much, you know, 99% of what they've said, we agree with, in terms of the benefit of Carnival and, you know, wanting to keep it going. But, you know, clearly, in light of the financial challenges, it's really difficult for us to continue funding it at the scale that we have. So, you know, now is an opportunity for us to have a bit more refresh and to rethink about how we fund Carnival going forward. But in the planning of Carnival, just the same, and, you know, it could be a separate conversation around governance and so on. But, you know, throughout, you know, the planning of the 2024 Carnival, you know, there was a lot of engagement with the Carnival groups and other stakeholders throughout. To sort of inform our thinking. And, you know, hence why we arrived at the position that we have. But in terms of the decision itself, as Councillor Kennedy, you know, leaded to earlier. And the decision has been taken by Cabinet. And, you know, we're now in a process of engaging with the Carnival groups to determine where we go next. Thank you. Thank you, Ricardo. So I've now got Councillor Tanaz. So we've heard from the Carnival group and they had shared serious concerns about the negative impact on stopping the funding, especially on local residents who are involved in the cultural and educational activities, which include black and global majority communities. Children, young people and elderly and disabled, as they mentioned, just wanted to find out what does the council understand about these impacts and how any steps in has any steps been taken to address or reduce them? Thank you. And so could you repeat the question? OK, so we've heard from the Carnival group. So the Carnival group have shared concerns about the negative impact of stopping the funding on local residents who are involved in cultural and educational activities within the Carnival. So what does the council understand about these impacts and have any steps been taken to address or reduce them? I think, as Councillor Kennedy was saying, the range of impacts is large. It's intersectional. It reaches a lot of different communities from big communities down to individuals. We don't know. We don't know the full reach of it, I think, is the honest answer. And we haven't started to make solutions to meet those impacts. I think in the presentation, I offered some ideas, which I was saying we need to co-design with the Carnival groups. But the impacts are going to be far reaching. But we're really committed to kind of reducing those as much as possible. I think I also mentioned, you know, £70,000 is not going to replace a Carnival, but it's still a significant amount of money. And there is a lot you can do with that money in terms of reach, community engagement and bringing people around the table and giving opportunities for communities to engage with different activities. So, yeah, I think the answer is that it's too early to say what all of the impacts are. And we haven't had enough of a head start to start addressing them. I'll bring you in, Councillor Ajajari, but just to let Commission members know, we've got about just under 30 minutes for this agenda item. So I will allow follow-ups, but just be brief. Do you want to? I just wanted to add to the reply to Councillor Tinas. Remember, we've got that 70,000 NSIL funding, which absolutely works on allowing the Carnival groups to continue that. Marva, as you said, it's a lot more than just a parade. It's about the work that happens with those, especially the vulnerable young people very often that Steve was talking about, who we get in through the front door of organisations. And actually, you know, life enhancing and life developing skills, which we hope can still go on and should still be go on. Many organisations provide them without being involved in Carnival. And actually, one of the things that led us at the executive level at Cabinet towards the decision was that huge chunk of red in those pie charts for where all the money goes that is just spent on infrastructure on the day, on barriers along the side of our roads. And that's a bad use of the money. Thank you, Councillor Kennedy. So, one of the councillors not on the commission, Councillor Terbo Odiloff, has indicated wanting to ask a question. I will permit that, but that's after the commission members have all asked their questions. If we have space, I'll let you in. So, I'll yield to Councillor Adi Jare. You had a follow up on that? Oh, you didn't have a follow up. Okay. Okay. Over to you then. Thank you very much, Chair. And thank you very much to everyone who's presented this evening. I think my question largely relates to the longevity of the community groups who have been serving our communities for a decade. They've put forward some really good ideas in terms of how to take things forward, including how to generate income, inclusive of the suggestion that they have a centralised hub, which would also allow them to kind of make money to kind of support their endeavours. In terms of the ongoing engagement, I'd like to kind of understand how much from grassroots level upwards, impact is going to kind of be taken on board in terms of the processes which are likely to be undertaken. I think all too often, voices are lost in the mix as we work to very tight budgets, but I think it's important that the people who have helped make carnival what it is, you know, we ensure that their expertise is utilised fully. So I just like that kind of guarantee, because there have been some awesome ideas here. So thank you. Okay. I'll hand over to Andrew to talk about, perhaps Petra to talk about the details of it, but yes, absolute commitment to carry on working with the carnival stakeholder groups, because this completely must be a co-produced and a co-designed solution to what comes forward. The idea of trading services, you know, perhaps becoming a, perhaps Hackney Carnival Trust provides some shows, some service, perhaps some carnival management or event management to other organisations in the future and becomes a self-generating, self-funding organisation. There's all sorts of, as you say, really good ideas that we completely commit to, but the actual day-to-day of that, we're still working out how that would work, aren't we? Yep. Okay. I'll come in here as well. I think we discussed with the carnival stakeholder board already and how we're going to sort of look at next steps, how we're going to co-produce those ideas. I think it's really important to remember that the funding landscape for arts and culture across the country is very difficult as well. So actually many local authorities are not eligible for some funders. So for example, trusts and foundations, that's because we're a public body. So we kind of see opportunities there to sort of empower the community groups to come together to look at the ideas they have, because they could potentially unleash some mixed funding opportunities from trusts and foundations that we, as I said, local authorities aren't able to go for. And so I think the next steps are to really sit down on a regular basis, to gather all those ideas, to create delivery plans and action plans, and how we can continue to support this. Thanks. Thank you, Petra. Is there any follow up on that? Can I try? Nope. Okay. It's ensuring that in terms of agency, that there's a lot of things that we need to go for. In terms of agency, that our communities do have agency over these processes, and their ideas are not kind of sidelines. Yep. Ricardo. Yep. So just to say, you know, totally agree with that. And it's why, you know, we're committing to this being the beginning of an ongoing conversation with the carnival groups. You know, I have to say, you know, in the meeting that I had for the first time of the carnival groups, I learned a lot. They told me things that I didn't know. So we're not in a position here where we're saying that the council knows best. So, you know, the answer to your question as to, you know, are we going to listen to those voices and trust those who know better? Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Ricardo. Councillor Gooch, is that a follow up or? No. It's a new question. Okay. Yep. Obviously. So we've heard at our focus group and again tonight about the importance of having access to buildings and spaces to come together to bring together expertise, share learning and ideas, provide training and coordinate projects. What work has the council undertaken to identify underused spaces to facilitate this and what is planned going forward? There's a whole piece of work at the moment looking at the entire council estate and working out how going forward in these constrained financial situations we can rationalize the buildings that we own and this will mean disposing of some of them, but it will mean taking the very positive models that the council has also been able to do. And I would particularly point you towards the old fire station in Leswin Road and the Mary Lloyd Centre on Queensbridge Road where we refurbish and look after buildings and bring many organizations together under one roof. And when I hear Stephen talking and Bettina and Marva, I hear the cogs turning in their head about how there might be some sort of carnival stroke artistic hub that happens in one of our buildings. And that actually enables some of the things they're talking about and some of the vision they have got to come true. I can't tell you which building that might be and I can't tell you how easy or difficult that would be, but it's not unfair or unreasonable to say that is something that is a good hope and expectation for us to have and to be thinking about. Is that fair? Is there any follow-ups to that? Okay. Thank you. Councillor Olsen. If there are any specific details, what is the future plan for alternative funding models? So I'll leave it in the comments. I will leave it in the comments. Is there any follow-ups to that? Councillor Olsen. So, if there are any specific details, what is the future plan for alternative funding models? so i'll leave it to others who are experts in the arts and culture space that be more specific but i think the the key point here is you know we want to take this opportunity you know to engage with the carnival groups you know they've mentioned themselves sponsorship and you know partnerships with organizations you know stephen mentioned some interesting ideas about how we could generate income to invest into the carnival in terms of ticketing and you know having certain vip areas and so on so i'm saying all of this to say that at this point you know we take nothing off the table because we're committed to identifying opportunities but you know there are also you know match funding opportunities via the arts council and so on which we have discussed with the groups before so all of this we're seeking to explore um but i don't know if uh andrew or petro had anything to that um i think ricardo covered a lot of the kind of the key ones there around fundraising in terms of kind of match funding from trusts and foundations uh commercial sponsorship um what are you saying stephen where you get people to match what you call it no it's all right it's okay i mean like gofundme kind of stuff um where the community kind of crowdfunding thank you where the community comes together and supports a subject the reality of any funding model going forward if it's not 100 funded by the council means that every year and year that funding model is at risk because trusts and foundations only fund you for so long arts council only funds you for so long crowdfunding might not be successful one year so it's about building in risk management into whatever those models are i think there's lots of opportunities to look at diversified funding at its most holistic and its widest um point but also do that in in turn with looking at what the model of carnival needs to be to see how much money you're kind of working towards um so it's it's all kind of it's a big puzzle around that but yeah um you know commercial sponsorship is not kind of the key answer to this i don't think it could be something really powerful if it was successful and achieved but it's a long way and i don't know if we have the skills i don't have commercial sponsorship skills i don't know if anyone else in the team does um but it's it's a very specified job so if we're going to go down that route it may involve kind of bringing somebody into the team to deliver that on our behalf as well thank you andrew um okay no follow-ups um councillor selman thank you chair and apologies for lateness and thank you for the papers which sort of set out some stuff around about the engagement framework but i was wondering if you just tell us a bit more about what the governance arrangements will be around about that including sort of what the corporate and political and leadership arrangements will be in terms of oversight of um making sure the engagement framework happens meaning flame practice so um again and i feel like a bit of a broken record here so please obviously you've already just arrived cancer selman but um you know we've certainly committed to ongoing discussions with um the community groups and actually you know sorry the carnival groups and actually you know i can't remember the exact details around the governance that we had in place in terms of the planning and the run-up to the carnival but i think whatever we design it needs to be needs to be suitable to what we're trying to achieve and also you know support the carnival groups to give them what they need really so whether it's a monthly meeting quarterly whatever i think it's clear that we're committed to doing that and we'll set the time aside to do it we do have existing council structures in terms of governance um as our kind of cabinet lead this is something that we have you know very regular conversations with um councillor kennedy about but there are sort of cabinet internal cabinet structures and you know our corporate leadership team and so on so nothing that we've discussed here hasn't gone through any of those um you know internal structures but we need to design something that works for the process that we're trying to that we're trying to take forward but equally we don't want to lock ourselves in and you know rule out you know creativity and openness so in a lot of ways i think it will be a hybrid between trying to be as organic as possible while allowing the carnival groups to feed in but also trying to strike the right balance with the existing internal you know processes and governance arrangements that we have thank you councillor kennedy um and councillor selman you missed earlier marva talking about the idea of forming a trust and we were talking about how um sometimes an arm's length from the council trust um has um ability to tap into funds that we can't access as a council because we're already a publicly funded body so uh remember the uh warm shores the two beautiful thomas price statues in the town hall square actually a substantial amount of the funding from those came and was only able to be accessed because we used create london a removed from the council body um in order to access the funding um and do the work on commissioning um thomas because some of the money couldn't be used by um a local authority but could be used by um an arm's length um cultural organization thank you chancellor kennedy chancellor selman thanks and apologies for making you repeat some stuff that you'd already covered earlier and i think we did when we were coming up with that question earlier we were aware that some of this would still be influx and being worked out i think the motivation for the question is also sometimes we know as sort of groups at this point in time we can talk about that there'll be an engagement process and then because the priorities things can sort of not transpire so i think it's um recognize that it's still we're still working out exactly what that would look like but i guess it's just seeking assurance that there might be a point in time where we check back in to check that stuff will have happened like fully and meaningfully and it's not just been one or two engagement it's been yeah how that found out that's all thanks yeah yeah that's entirely fair chair um and happy to talk that through with yourself okay thank you okay so um for me um it is noted that the decision to discontinue funding and the likelihood that future parades will be cancelled if external funding cannot be identified is likely to receive backlash from residents and community within hackney um what communication activities around the decision have taken place and what is plans going forward to develop a long term communication strategy i would like to add that objectively speaking what we have found in this process is that whilst we understand the decision made by cabinet in regards to the funding the sort of communication that has gone out regarding this has been quite confusing for us as a commission but also for the um carnival groups and it would be helpful if i guess wherever is being sent out is sent in more plain english because yeah it was really really confusing but i'll hand over to you if that makes sense um okay uh thank you for taking us i suppose bluntly um the council is really struggling financially and we can't put aside the money every year for carnival um is is that i mean it that is the bluntest message and and perhaps i should as cabinet member do a video stating that but that that takes away all the hope um and the enterprise and all the great things that we've talked about tonight that we want to keep um and so somehow we've got it we've got to have a way of um expressing that as well um we have got a whole for when we actually take our budget decision um as a whole council in february there is a whole comms plan um and as we're looking through that in preparation for the budget meeting in february um i'll make sure that what i've just said is in there the the hope and the joy that we want to preserve despite the stark economic reality yeah thank you councillor kennedy because um i can understand how messaging got misinterpreted because it came across like okay carnival is being cancelled we're not able to fund it anymore it's it's not be it's not going to happen i'm not saying that's how that's how it came across and i think probably going forward what we should be saying is that okay the success of hackney council has meant that it's grown but as it's grown due to cost pressures we are unable to fund it 100 long term but we do have some funding that we have been able to kind of partially allocate to it we're not quite sure how it's going to be spent but we're we're planning on working with the carnival groups to co-produce how that fund is going to be spent um whether we're going to be able to get some external funding to complement that and how we kind of work together to see what we can do and i i do believe the council are committed to doing that and the carnival groups wouldn't be here if we weren't committing committed to working with them but i think if we can just be a bit clearer then that will be a lot helpful but i think you've said that that is what's going to happen anyway so that's um somewhat helpful um i'll call in um okay i'll call in the carnival group um marva and then um i'll come to councillor yeah the it states that the hackney council is in a deficit of 38 million yeah this year um you've decided that you want to offer 70 000 for the kind of the stakeholders to run carnival projects for 25 26 what are you going to be doing for the next three years what have you put on the table for the next three years until you sort yourselves out yeah so at the moment in line with the financial settlements um that we get from government we can only plan a year at a time so we're not in a position to talk about the next three years in terms of you know funding and how we're going to spend it we're expecting a comprehensive spending review from government with a three-year settlement in the summer which will hopefully give us an indication and for us to be able to plan over the three years but you know unfortunately that's the position but i think we just need some guidelines on how we structure ourselves in in their future and we can certainly have that discussion you know when we engage and you know design and determine how we do that because we fully appreciate here you know if we're talking about a sustainable funding solution we're not talking next year or the year after we're talking the long term but in terms of the constraints facing the council it's just you know how we have to structure and set our budgets and then i'll come to councillor gooch thank you chair i i appreciate you allowing me to ask my question um and it will go a little bit with what ricardo you were mentioning um i think it's clear that uh hackney saboro hackney saboro excellence for carnival there's clearly over 100 years of expertise amongst the stakeholders and chair would like just to say thank you to the stakeholders tonight and everyone for all the commitment that you have to add to carnival and the life opportunities that i'm training you for our residents really thank you from the bottom of my heart um my question is about next steps um you know we can't talk about three years time down you know three years down the line hopefully by then the recommendations that the stakeholders have put in place will be very successful and will show that there will be some sustainability but can we talk about timelines how how what's happening next how are you going to who decides what's the alternative model for carnival and how these recommendations taken into account thank you so much thank you so i want to take in councillor gooch's question as well so you've got two rather than the one yeah so hackney is renowned across london as a center of culture and the carnival has been a major celebration of a broad range of people from across the city and actually beyond far beyond hacking borders so what consideration has been given um to the impact of the funding decision on the borough standing as a place that welcomes and embraces and embraces all people i'll do i'll do a quick bit first um that um uh and i'll i'll talk to councillor gooch's question first we absolutely aim as far as possible to help all our carnival groups to have a carnival in some fashion in the future um and actually we know that um the rich respect in which the carnival is held across um uh london and actually um wider nationally and internationally will support that and is a really good basis um for it continuing um and actually um the fact that the council at the moment can't put much if any money into it um doesn't in any way detract from that amazing and brilliant history of carnival that is there and does provide us with a very real opportunity of something we don't know what we don't know how we don't know when happening in the future and actually it's always it's always looking forward and talking about what that might look like and using the enterprise um and the hope as i said earlier that we've heard from our speakers tonight um that's what always what we should be aiming for going um uh the world still looks at hackney and and says hackney is a great place of culture um and and there are vast amounts of things um that carry on all the uh 364 days of a year that you don't have a carnival on um culturally in this borough and we do everything we can as a council to keep fermenting all of those and keep them going um um there was counselor turbo's the last question but regarding timelines um i was going to say something but i'll wait for your response and i'll say something after that um the i mean the immediate timeline after this is to arrange a meeting with the carnival stakeholder groups and start to talk about what we can should and how we make that 70 000 pounds meaningful um i think that's the short-term timeline and we're just looking at 26 and 25 to 26 around that i think there's a parallel conversation that we'll be having at the same time or within a separate meeting which is about the long-term aspirations of what you've been talking about today um i mean especially the trust model i think is is a really important thing to explore in detail and look at other examples how it works and what it brings into an organization to be able to do that as councillor kennedy was saying the power of having an organization outside of the council that can apply for funding for an art and cultural organization is immense it is way more powerful than a council asking for funding from a trusted foundation and so that's kind of a timeline that we need to explore around the short term and then a parallel kind of longer term one okay um thank you for that um what i would say is i guess it's good we're having this we're having this conversation and we're able to kind of reference back to the carnival that was yeah last year um and look look at the sort of successes um of that but what i'm finding difficult is that it a urgent decision had to be made in terms of how the funding would be allocated but in terms of us really scrutinizing um this piece of work it's a bit difficult because it's like a work in progress there's discussions that need to be had there's proposals that need to be put forward for us to look at so for me it doesn't feel like we're able to actually really scrutinize anything i think we're just kind of facilitating sort of conversation but i guess giving reassurances to the community and the carnival groups that the council is committed to working in collaboration to see how the much less funds can be used but also um how we could potentially look at alternative alternative funding so i feel like we're probably going to need to bring this back but we can only bring this back when there's been progress in terms of the discussions with the various stakeholders um i don't know if there's any thing the commissioners what the commission members want to say on that on that point of like my summing up but yeah obviously you can't secondly um yeah yeah this was always only going to ever going to be a point in the road this was never going to be a uh final decision making meeting in a way this is the this is the beginning of the future of hackney carnival um the the place that we're we're in now um and i would think more than once this commission would want to see um all of us back again and find out where we are it's um uh it's probably down to um you and i and officers to start uh uh talking uh talking around that but you you have a forward plan don't you so you can start planning it out in your forward plan about when you want to see us all again i guess yeah thank you councillor kennedy so come to the garber and then councillor adjari to ask a quick question to the carnival groups about the realistic nature of you sustaining as organizations to be part of these conversations with this level of funding like do the organizations actually exist to be able to take part in the conversations i'm sorry yep yep go ahead go ahead go ahead i feel it will be very difficult for some of the organizations to take part in the conversation because hackney carnival is one of the their key i will say income and project generation and if it's not there then i think there's going to be a big gap in them coming in and if you're bringing them into i will say to facilitate a different event it's going to it will cost them more to come in because they would have to start from scratch and that's what we don't want we want some uh continuation of the delivery that we've been delivering over the last 20 odd years um sorry i just want to be clear um we we are aware that carnival is not being run on an annual basis right we're all we're all clear on that because the reason why i say that is because i'm a bit confused that sorry about this councillor garber um at the question because like it's on a sort of cycle it's on a cycle now it's not on an annual basis so i don't think they isn't rely there is a reliance on an annual income when it's run on a different funding model so i guess martha in your response of um you're not sure how the groups are going to be able to participate i'm a bit sorry let me just rephrase if you've got if you've planned it for two years then you can plan and have a program for two years that would make sure that you you've got a long extension you've got a project there but if you haven't got a project or you don't know what's happening the following year it comes very difficult and if like i said if we're not sure that hackney carnival is going to or the parade is going to be ready for next year then what do we do and if you're talking about doing projects the money that you've put on the table will not be enough to suffice all the groups because you would have to restart a new program to make sure that there's that continuation of delivery that's what i mean okay thank you thank you marva i was thinking i hope it's okay to say but um it won't be easy but we resilient and we're dynamic so um and we really want it so i guess we will do everything we can so we can take part in these discussions thank you steven yeah what i'd like to say is um i think one thing everybody's got to always remember is the actual carnival is when we actually could show the borough what we can do but all through the year we're doing things and we're planning and we're making things happen so i think it's important for that to be remembered we as an organization really what we want to do is to continue the work we're doing and the most support that we can get will help us sustain that thank you thank you steven i think my mind just follows on from sorry i did want to hear from um organizers themselves but i also trying to get understanding as to why these processes aren't more aligned in terms of this is coming to an end not the carnival itself the funding what is it going to look like moving forwards and why that's not more of a kind of joined up approach rather that something has to end by by the by this fund in the next financial year but there's no concurrent plan it's all we've got people in limbo at the moment i think is what i'm trying to say and it is although we're all very well meaning for them it's not well meaning enough at this stage because they don't know what this is going to look like for them because we don't have that right you know that kind of not sliding doors but a system which is more aligned i think is what i'm trying to say and whether moving forward that that's something we can look at organizationally perhaps rather than this kind of blunt edged approach yeah ricardo yeah so um i mean i won't talk about financial constraints because i think we've already covered that point but i think it's an important point to note here is on your challenge around continuation cats with adjari we have secured you know 70k of funding taking us into 25 26 which was by no means a certainty you know given the financial challenges that we have so you know as as we've said throughout the session um this evening is about how we can make the most of that to help us alongside the governance and the ongoing engagement who plan for the future now you know counselor again the more and made the point earlier that um you know carnival isn't every year appreciating that in between you know you need to plan and so on and so forth so whilst we don't have you know an infinite amount of time you know we certainly haven't got time to waste and you know we want to make the most of it to crack on and you know design something that is sustainable and what we are coming into today you know is our time and our commitment and you know we've already established relationships you know the team have i know with the carnival groups so we're hoping to build on that but it is a challenge i'm not going to talk about i think councillor kennedy mentioned ta pressures in in my so i'm not going to talk about accommodation pressures and tough decisions but you know we're hoping that what we have secured will help us to continue because you know the alternative is not having any funding at all and then there would have been a cliff edge thanks yeah one thing i just wanted to add um to pull on from this is also how we um try and build capacity with organizations so we've been looking at how we can use our assets we talked about venues for example space is really important for carnival groups but also this year for the first time when we run the carnival we had a big wrap around program in our museum so we celebrated 50 years of hackney carnival as an exhibition to really bring the heritage to children and young people and many of them you know were like six seven years old and hadn't actually experienced the carnival because of the long time that we didn't have carnival for but also we used carnival as a theme for our summer reading challenge in all our libraries so we reached thousands of children and young people um through our libraries so we're actively looking at how can we build the capacity for carnival groups across all our cultural assets whether it's heritage it's museums it's libraries you know how how can we create space for people and um agency and resources to do what you just said is build capacity in the sector so thank you thank you um petra because yeah i was just thinking about that um as you responded to that question because the the way i'm kind of seeing it is that with the various sort of carnival groups there's things that they're doing in their own respective individual capacities but also um collective capacities to um promote sort of cultural heritage and inclusion supporting the community on an annual basis and then i guess through that sort of phase period of the carnival the carnival is like the main event where everybody comes together to share what they've been doing and promote the diversity within within the borough where i'm going with what i'm saying though is that um and i think petra you probably touched on it already is like what no how are we going to support them um having to kind of make the sort of unfortunate adjustments that they're gonna have to make because there is a lack of funding because um we want businesses in hackney we we we especially want businesses hackney based businesses that are giving back to the community creating community um cohesion sharing the rich sort of diversity that we have in hackney and we wouldn't want like this unfortunate decision to put um valuable groups out of business um because we we we can't fund so if there's ways we can assist these groups in terms of having to make the adjustments with the work that they do that would be really helpful don't know if you want to respond on that i'll let officers come in but i did want to say um this isn't the first challenge recently that carnival has faced um and when we had the pandemic um we uh we did a work around and we used hackney empire and we did a live stream of some of the carnival work um and when we had uh the death of uh queen elizabeth ii and we had to cancel the actual street parade we we did a work around later in the year and we had um a showcase at shoreditch town hall there there is um there is adaptability and ingenuity um is built into hackney carnival um uh both amongst the carnival groups but also amongst council and the officers um and we'll come up with something thank you councillor okay i take it from rotado yeah perfectly honest okay thank you yeah i think my my my sort of question was more on like sort of out of the box thinking with like planning their finances and stuff like that because we could easily say okay it's for the sort of carnival groups to work out their budgets themselves and stuff like that but we where's the sort of stronger economic power compared to them and kind of seeing how we can support them in that sort of out of the box thinking if that makes sense i hope that makes sense yeah so absolutely that's you know what we're committing to today um it's you know sometimes when we have these um sessions it's really difficult to sort of turn up with something already designed because then you challenge us on that so if there's one thing you know that we want to um say to the carnival groups today is you know this is an opportunity for us to work with you you know support you to give you what you need you know we've set out the financial challenges so you know there aren't it's not without limits um but it's important that you know this is ground up so anything that we can do to support and you know we've heard your recommendations today you know let's take it forward and see what we can do okay thank you ricardo so um i'd like to thank commission members um for your questions um and to our guests for um their responses um i believe i've summed things up in sort of my responses already so i won't repeat them um again so um after the meeting um commission members will reflect on the evidence heard and may make suggestions or recommendations for improvement for your consideration um i'm just not sure yeah so that brings the that brings that agenda item to an end so the officers and the carnival groups are free to go but thank you all for coming thank you thank you thank you so um agenda item five scrutiny reports letters and responses this is a rolling item which gives us the space to note and discuss our reports and letters and any responses to our work we have now sent a letter to the north london waste authority outlining our findings and suggestions following the session on the joint waste strategy on the 18th of november 2024 this is included within the agenda papers do members have any questions or comments okay members are asked to note the letter also included within the agenda papers is the draft report for our scrutiny review into the provision of supported accommodation for homeless people with complex needs in hackney we gathered a range of evidence across a number of meetings site visits and conversations and through extensive desktop research and analysis we have now drafted our formal report which includes seven recommendations across several key areas which seek to address issues around urgent unmet need limited supply and collaboration and joint working assuming that members agree the draft report this evening it will be sent sent to the executive for a formal response which will be presented at cabinet we will then look to receive updates on how the recommendations are being implemented at the appropriate junctures do members have any questions or comments nope members are asked to agree the final report and note the next steps noted okay thank you agenda item six so action tracker 2020 for 2025 this is a rolling item which allows us to track the progress of any actions and information requests from previous meetings do members have any comments or questions yep come to the summit all right so i was just wondering if it was um first of all like an expected response timeline people coming back to us so that they don't sort of just drag on forever and then specifically i know we talked about it last time but the safer schools point which felt like it was fairly critical when we got the presentation it would be good i don't know if we had a chance to chase that up but it's not be good for us to place that up yeah thank you yeah just to come in on the timescales um point there are deadlines that we expect them to respond to us by yeah so i'll trace them up so is there any any other question okay so members are asked to note the action log noted okay agenda item seven work program 2024 2025 the work program for the 2024 2025 municipal year is included within the agenda pack do members have any questions or so any comments or questions council summit really sorry people already covered this earlier um at one stage we were meant to at this session have the item on housing advice i was just wondering where that had gone sorry say that again so at one stage we had timetabled for today's meeting yeah an item on housing advice i know it but we didn't have that is that coming to a lady set or what happened with that item yeah i think is that one of the ones moved to the yeah sorry i can come in um yeah we i'm not sure if you were there cancer sermon but we went through it the last meeting um the chair um decided to postpone it um and turn it into a bigger piece of work essentially um yeah i don't think we would have given it justice in the any amount of time that we have today okay thank you um any other questions comments because i got it yep um just quickly where did we get to we we had a conversation about cabinet members coming last time but i can't remember what the conclusion was because obviously it doesn't look like we have anyone at the next one around the housing strategy or the intermediate housing panel but would they come yeah so so basically um i believe we we went through this already but apologies no we definitely did yeah so what we said was that with cabinet question time we're going to put them into the new municipal um yeah because it with this with the stuff that we wanted to go through and then also asking them the questions that we need to ask them it was too much crammed in so um we've had to move the cabinet questions into the new municipal yeah we won't have any cabinet members at the next one just to participate you know like councillor kennedy was today there won't be anyone at the housing one yeah yeah yeah we've we've invited councillor nicholson responsible for the housing strategy yeah yeah thank you all right so um members are asked to note the work program noted okay so minutes of the meeting the draft minutes of the previous meeting held on the 9th of december 2024 are included within the agenda pack for members to note and agree the draft minutes of the meeting held on the 22nd of january 2025 will be provided at the next meeting do members agree on the minutes from the 9th of december january 2024 2024 have those been nice okay apologies if that get correct that will get corrected any other points of correction or anything on the minutes okay so do members agree on the minutes okay agreed um so um agenda item nine any other business is there any other business yes okay okay well everyone's quiet oh that's closing sorry yeah okay so if there is no other business i formally declare the meeting closed um it's not closed yet but it will be closed closed you okay you you you you yeah