Transcript

Just remind members and officers to have the mobile phone switched off or on silent and the meeting is being webcast and recording will be available online, case of fire, exit the room through the door you entered and take the exit to the building via the door to your left. Please indicate to me if you wish to speak if you're online like Nick do so if you can with electronic button or just wave violently and hopefully one of us will see you and please mute your microphones when you're not speaking. Happy for anyone attending to use social media today and Julie is the live broadcast being streamed. Thank you very much. Apologies for absence and substitutions. We've had none. Thank you very much. Notice of the previous meeting, are there any comments on factual accuracy, any member wishes to make? No. Thank you very much and can I do we approve the minutes as a true and accurate record of the proceedings? I'd agree. Thank you very much. Declarations of interest, does anyone have any disposable pecuniary interest? No or other interest arising under the code of conduct of any item on the agenda? No. Thank you very much. Questions and petitions, there are no questions or petitions received and we come to item 5, corporate health and safety and welcome Kevin Deen, cabinet member of fire and rescue who has the portfolio for health and safety. Shella Smith, director of people in change, Glen Woodhead, assistant director for facilities management and Leslie Graham, head of health and safety. If we could start, unless anyone wants to do an introduction first, thank you, Kevin. I'll probably do an introduction and just sit here and let the experts talk, so thank you, Chair. On the 1st of June, 2023, the health and safety function was moved out of customer and communities director into people in change into resources. This has helped to increase collaboration with other teams in people in change who together support and enable our workforce. The purpose of this report is to demonstrate the commitment of sorry county council officers to identify gaps in health and safety governance, arrangements and implement actions to improve health and safety compliance. This is done by providing an update on the progress made implementing the actions from the Orbis internal audit which was published in October 2023. I'll wait for him to get comfortable. The audit report provided partial assurance, meaning there were weaknesses in the systems or levels of non-compliance and it also provides an update on the improvements made to comply with the health and safety executive, improvement notice issued to the Council on 11 April 2023. This was issued following a visit to a Surrey Community School in March 2023 as part of an HSC inspection program undertaken during September 2022 to March 2023 and that was to assess health schools in England, Scotland and Wales managing the risk from asbestos. The committee also requested the report to include a general review of health and safety performance across schools and care homes in Surrey. Thank you, Jay. Thank you very much, Kevin. I neglected to welcome David Lewis, the cabinet member of the finance, who was grateful you come to our meetings. If I could start with the question that actually is for you, Kevin, which is what involvements the cabinet as a whole had in the council's health and safety improvement strategy, not just your own involvement as the cabinet member responsible. Thank you, Jay. As you know, the leader of the council has signed the corporate health and safety and wellbeing policy which is reviewed annually and there's good engagement with myself, the portfolio holder. This has formalised into the corporate health and safety and wellbeing policy with a head of health and safety and myself as a cabinet member. There are coarsely reviews on health and safety performance and in addition, I have a monthly review. In addition, I have portfolio reviews with the leader where we go through performance and risks. An update on health and safety has also gone to the informal cabinet in January 2024 and this has included progress on the actions from the internal audit. Informal cabinet will inform that once a new health and safety and wellbeing strategy and action plan is developed, it will be shared with them for information. Each portfolio lead within the cabinet does have a nominated individual who's their health and safety lead so they play an active part through their own portfolios. So they don't get to ignore the health and safety issues and leave it to me. They have their own leads within their portfolios. Thank you very much. Very grateful for that. Leslie, you want to come in? Thank you. May I just add that one of the actions from the internal audit report was a briefing to I think it was members, wasn't it a member's briefing. So on the back of that, so Councillor Deen has introduced that and on the back of that, the name leads were supplied to all the portfolio holders. Thank you. It's very helpful. Thank you very much. I have no supplementary for that. So if we could go to anybody else, I think has Hazel, question two. Thank you, Chairman. So how effective are the corporate health and safety KPIs and the reporting system for these? Thank you. Thank you. So the new KPIs expanded on the previous ones that we had. They provide a more detailed level of reporting and they provide trend data, which we didn't previously have. This easily identifies areas for improvement. They were first reported on in the organisational effective report in March 2024 this year and the report showed a decline in the completion rates of accident incident reviews and also the mandatory health and safety training of which there are six courses. As a result of this, there was a bigger focus from the health and safety leads within their director areas to ensure that those report rates and improvement rates did improve. The quarterly KPIs are also taken to the central joint health safety and wellbeing committee. These are reported on of which one of the members of CLT director chairs and an action was taken back from service leads and the health and safety leads to make sure that directorates helped to support the improvement of that. So these are actions that are taken forward. So we feel that they are more effective currently than they were before, but I think they've only been in place since November and then we're starting to roll that out and of course we will continue to review those over the course of the next 12 months. Thank you. Kevin wants to come in first and then we'll come back to Hazel. Yeah, it's really, we're talking about the KPIs where when I was looking at the KPIs, for example, if you look at injuries at schools, of course in the summer there's none. And then when you get into the September and that quarter, you're suddenly going to get a big jump. So what does that tell you? We're not a great deal. So one of the things we are trying to do is not just do quarter and quarter, we're trying to do that quarter and measure against the previous year's quarter. So those sort of seasonal differences show, otherwise it doesn't tell us anything and the KPIs aren't of any value. So we are looking more at what was the summer compared to the summer, what's the winter compared to the winter to get those type of trains. Thank you very much. Hazel. Thank you. That's very helpful. My next question is, can you explain the role and importance of the Chair of the Central Joint Health, Safety and Wellbeing Committee? And does the fact this rotates among CLT members affect continuity of expertise and clear accountability? Thank you. Thank you. So the Chair is responsible for overseeing the committee meeting proceedings. They ensure that these are reported to CLT, so they are proceeding a committee meeting, the minutes are shared and some slides to CLT to give the key findings from those meetings. Any other relevant persons is -- so sorry. And any other relevant persons to achieve the aims and objectives defined in the constitution in terms of reference, which I believe has been shared in terms of reference and constitution. It's about promoting and improving health, safety and wellbeing across the Council and complying with health and safety legislation. It's an important role and it demonstrates the organisation's commitment and legal responsibility to consult with its employees and their representatives on health and safety matters. Having a member of CLT Chair of the meeting is reflective of the importance attributed to health, safety and wellbeing of staff and the communities that we serve. Rotating the Chair provides the opportunities for each member of CLT to be responsible for and involved in the promotion and improvement of health, safety and wellbeing and to ensure they understand their legal responsibilities. A rotating Chair also promotes a wider perspective and awareness of issues and areas for important improvement across the whole Council, not just within their own directorate areas. This change is the focus so that all directors share responsibility, experiences and learning, ensuring the message that health and safety is a collective responsibility. It's not an individual one and the CLT Chair serves for a full year which gives their more continuity and clear accountability for that period that they serve. Thank you. Okay, thank you very much. No supplements? Okay, John, question four. Thank you, Chairman. Looking at paragraph 4D, which is the internal audit, it just says the remaining action is health and safety training for senior management. Health and safety refresher training for executive leaders, is that the same people as senior management or are they slightly separate? That's the first question will be delivered when the new Chief Executive starts. Well, the first one could you just clarify when it says senior management that is synonymous with executive leaders if it is question answered? Why are we waiting so long because the new Chief Executive won't be on site, I think, for another three months or so. It seemed quite a long time before the important health and safety refresher training for something as important as this takes place. Thank you. So to confirm your first point, the training will be for executive leaders and I believe directors, so I do just need to check that to confirm that. One of the reasons that we've waited is because there is a change of corporate leadership team, so we're having three new executive leaders appointed as part of the change. This is a refresher training, so as it is with the mandatory health and safety training, that is refreshed every three years, so the previous training was done just about three years ago, so it feels right that we wait otherwise it may be another three years cycle to try and get those people in, so we feel that that's the right place to take at the moment. Thank you very much and I'd rather agree with that, wait until the Chief Executive comes in. His new team, as it were, will be appointed in due course and that is the time for some of them to get the training first of all because they may not be within sorry to start with, but those who are already seen as sorry, managers to have that when the new Chief Executive does appear in person as it were, makes sense to me, so thank you. May I please just add as well that on the audit report, the completion date for that I think was about the 31st of May and I have agreed with internal audit that that date can be extended, so they've given us a completion date of the 31st of December, we are aiming to do it way before then though. It's extremely helpful, thank you. Okay, thank you John, also welcome Natalie Bramwell, the property member for property for joining us. Steve. Yeah, thank you Chair, it's a little bit of a crystal ball question I'm afraid. So given the fact that there's a follow-up intent in the audit plan to cover off some of the items, could you maybe talk to some of the anticipated improvements that they may come up and say that they basically improved on and the progress you anticipate them to report on, maybe a bit of a heads up on what you have done to address those items and hopefully what internal audit may come back and be sure that you have done those that will be helpful. Thank you. Thank you. So we anticipate that the follow-up audit will demonstrate reasonable or substantial assurance and that is based on the fact that we have completed all bar one of the internal audit actions and we've got those controls in place, excuse me, and we're operating as expected to manage those key risks. We've agreed to the actions and we've achieved those within the time scales that have been agreed where they have moved as agreed, we've agreed that with internal audit. One of the things that we've just touched on there was currently the strategic lead for health and safety is the deputy chief executive and the executive director of resources. So we will need to appoint a new strategic lead for health and safety once the new corporate leadership team has been agreed and the structure has been changed. So our aim is to get that full assurance, but we anticipate the fact that we've got one outstanding action, the reasonable assurance may be what we get, but we're quite confident in that. Thank you very much, Fred, and it just sounds good progress. Is there a plan behind that, dates and times, et cetera? So I've been in touch with internal audit. They have scheduled our review for quarter two because of the two high risk actions that we have, which was the resources and performance select committee, which we're at today. And also the corporate strategy and action plan has yet to be approved and that's going to the central joint health safety and wellbeing committee tomorrow. So for approval, so we anticipate we'll be able to meet those actions by the end of May. So it's on their quarter two schedule. So hopefully that will start at the beginning of June. Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. We'll now move on to the subject of a space source management in community schools, Leslie. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. Why were the 23 schools who didn't buy asbestos re-inspections through the Council not picked up and challenged sooner by Surrey? And what methodology was employed in contacting schools to check what works had been undertaken, please. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman, and apologies for being late. I was told to get here at 10.05 for some unknown reason, so sorry. It's not a problem. All schools receive revenue funding and it's used to pay for the day-to-day running costs of the school, such as head teaching, remuneration, energy bills, teaching materials, property services, compliance inspections, remedial and maintenance tasks. They can choose where they procure these property services. SEC offers property buyback schemes, which are available to non-academy and academy schools. The schemes allow schools to purchase various PPM, which is planned, preventative maintenance, compliance inspections with the appropriate remediation and reactive works. Currently, the scheme is administered by the buyback coordinator employed by Surrey County Council. From the 1st of July, this post will chute you over to macro, which is our FM supplier. And they will manage the delivery and administration of the scheme. There's an expectation that macro will increase the services offered to schools over the coming years and potentially sell the scheme to other providers, such as family centres. There was no process in place at the time of the HSE visit. Following the inspection, a process has been developed. A compliance questionnaire, including asbestos, has been sent out to schools and we're following up on any unsatisfactory returns. In addition, we'll be considering site visits to all the school responses to the questionnaires. The schools not in the buyback scheme were also contacted by phone to verify their arrangements and to establish if they had asbestos-containing materials. The schools that did have ACMs and were not in the buyback scheme were then visited by school health and safety adviser to discuss their arrangements. They were provided with advice where gaps were identified and an action plan with time-scales for completion was put in place where necessary, where an urgent plan was issued, progress against these actions was followed up by advisers using a risk-based approach. Tim. Thank you. As I probably ought to declare a vague interest as a school governor of two Surrey schools, can I say to the cabinet member that there's somebody who has always supported the buyback scheme? That I think better promotion of it and an explanation to schools, particularly smaller schools where there is limited admin, limited management, is a good thing. My experience with it is that it's really good, it's a really sensible thing to have and that we probably ought to be promoting it better and everybody's trying to save money, but actually, I can tell you from one of my neighbouring schools, which lost the front of the building when somebody hit it with a vehicle and then discovered they weren't covered for lots of things, that we probably ought to be promoting how good our service is and how sensible and just as a security thing with lots of smaller schools, lots of schools in transition, changes of management, I do think we ought to promote it more because it's really good and they do a really good job. Thank you, Councillor HAW. I agree with you and there is a process in place for the knowledge transfer but as you will know, the governing body has to hold the heads to account and the culture comes from the top down. Each school has their own access to an online system and we found that some schools haven't even logged on to the system when inspectors came in. So that sort of shows you, you know, heads are too busy running in school and teaching if we're being honest and what I think they should really do is actually stick with us and then we will do it all and take away quite a big headache from them. I don't know whether Glen wants to add anything. I think I'll take on Councillor HAW's comments around the buyback scheme to be fair. I think the buyback scheme itself is a really, really good opportunity. I think it provides a significant service for schools and I think your comments around the buyback are really well received. Thank you very much because we've put a lot of effort in promoting it. I see that the next generation of what we're doing is a real opportunity for schools because ultimately we've now improved the scheme. We've now made it a little bit more accountable in terms of the spend and the cost in terms of the services that are received through the buyback scheme so it's a little bit more tailored to the individual need which is probably all customer focused. There is now a drive to be able to promote that buyback scheme because ultimately we'll be putting it through the macro framework which means therefore they've got incentives to grow it which is a significant change from when it was purely internal which is a little bit more of an administrative task. Just on your purely, on your question of buyback I think you will find that given a few months time it'll probably be an improved service but I will take back your comments and I'm sure they'll be well received so thank you. Thank you very much. I have to say that whereas we recognize that schools are very busy and as Natalie says concentrating on education these are vital matters and this is the third incident in short space of time that I've heard of where one might generously say that the response from schools has been disappointing and I just wonder whether they should be recommended to have a Governor with responsibility for safeguarding because these are safeguarding matters. The head teacher has a duty of care as do we of course and we really need a more solid response on these things. Leslie wants to come in. Thank you. Just to pick up on your point about a Governor so all schools should appoint a Health and Safety Governor so that should be part of their committees that they do and in fact we provide the schools with a Health and Safety Policy template and in there it talks about their constitution. So when a Health and Safety Advisor or a County Council Health and Safety Advisor goes out and does an inspection of the school they will ask the school Governor or the Governor that's been given the responsibility for Health and Safety to attend with the inspection during that visit so not only will they want to speak to the head teacher they will also want to speak to the school business manager who in fact does the day-to-day operational work at the school but also they would want to speak to the school Governor they would certainly invite them along to that meeting. That's extremely helpful Leslie thank you. I'm sure the scrutiny officer for the Children's Committee will have heard all of that and doubt this will perhaps pursue that for us in that committee. Okay moving on to Hazel's question number seven. Thank you Chairman can officers give more details on what is involved in the joint approach being undertaken by the Health and Safety team, land and property workforce and facilities team to audit and monitor asbestos management plans where the Kelly Council is the employer. Thank you. Thank you Councillor Watson. The School Health and Safety Advisor has visited 25 schools during October 2023 to March 2024 and further 25 inspections are scheduled for April to July this year. During the summer term as agreed with the HSE this does not include the 13 schools that were audited in June 2023. We're considering the option of using SCC's asbestos contractor Tetra Tech to provide additional capacity to increase the number of schools visited. This is something that land and property are working through with Tetra Tech who will become one of macros our FM supplies subcontractors and who are required to manage all elements of building compliance for us of which asbestos is one element. The day-to-day responsibility for health and safety again is delegated to the head teacher and school management team. They have a key role in making sure risks are effectively managed on site and the monitoring visits are an opportunity to review performance with the school with their particular management team and where gaps have been identified the school are provided with an action plan which is then followed up again. Thank you. Thank you. So I've got a couple of other questions. Are there any schools where the county council is the employer in which health and safety performance is of concern to the council? I think there's probably links into the monitoring piece so there aren't any that we're aware of that we're concerned about performance with but I guess we're starting to understand that it comes back to some of the other council's points we started to understand that the schools obviously have that responsibility around their first and foremost role is to make sure that the school runs correctly so that's their priority but the monitoring visits will give us the opportunity to be able to see and give them that targeted action plan any areas that we've got but from our perspective we haven't got any schools that are causing us concern. Thank you and is the HSE happy with the council's timeframe for monitoring the schools? Thank you. So we had the discussion with the HSE in March myself and Glen were at that meeting with them in March this year and they recognised the principal inspector who was present at the meeting recognised that it was a significant task for us to undertake. We have nearly 100 schools where we're the employer and that we asked we've done the 25 visits that we talked about so we agreed with the HSE we would do additional 25 visits on top of the ones that we had already completed and we benchmarked the two year monitoring program with other neighbouring authorities so we've agreed that that is adequate from the HSE's perspective for this year. Thank you. David. Thank you Chairman. Clearly an important area we'll be talking about as best as right away across the workplace and in schools and everything else but there aren't degrees of asbestos I have to say. For instance I found out when I was refurbishing and building to my own cost that thermoplastic floor tiles contain asbestos. Now yes we should be getting rid of it wherever possible insulation in some building from the 1960s depending on what the building regs and the materials were made of that contains asbestos and it is not feasible for that to be taken out in one in one in one go. So I'm slightly concerned that we may be putting a burden particularly on the schools and as Natalie quite rightly said you know there's they have enough costs structure with all the other things and you know is rising the cost of rising we all know that and I'm just nervous that we are powering ahead in putting a load on the schools and then by extension our own budgets on asbestos that doesn't need to be dealt with here and now yes in the long term and so I really make as a general statement just sitting here listening and hang on you know we've got to be realistic about this and take a long term sensible view really is a statement rather than a question thank you Chairman. Yeah I think I take your point completely I think we have to understand that really that's covered within the asbestos management plans that are developed for each of the different sites and the different schools so what what we do is make sure that we've covered ourselves in terms of our legal responsibilities but then from there within those plans we are well we are identifying where the asbestos is and then it's a question of whether it can be contained or removed or what the difference it makes but remember when we're in a school we're in a building that is actually got a massive amount of children but also they're moving around that school so the ability to maybe to not buy asbestos to make that asbestos so it's not contained is a significantly higher risk so one of the things that happens when the asbestos reviews are done on every time they go and do the review is they check with the school to see whether those areas can be contained adequately so I take on board your point but I think you will find that in reality of all the buildings that we've got on our site it's the schools that will always be the most difficult in terms of containing the asbestos so over time we will be looking to be moving but it's all in we do have a system called teams it's not Microsoft teams it's another team's unfortunately it's a misnomer but which does have all that information for every individual site and that's what we utilize to keep up near to it thank you for that can I just go back and ask for certain words to be deleted we're doing what we can I'm paraphrasing to cover ourselves we're doing what we can to improve the situation for our children that is the approach I would rather take than it with all due respect if you don't mind just be pedantic but I flag it up thank you I'm sure that's what Glenn meant it's a good point thank you David thank you Joan Will David that's all very fine and great stuff but could I inquire what sanctions there are if a school does not address the issues which we're raising or which our advisors are raising over a set period of time good question if I'm brutally honest I don't actually know I'll have to find out what that means but in reality I would expect that we don't get into that position what we'll be looking to do is make sure that we manage those situations properly and so far we are doing that it's just that I think the health and safety executive have managed to identify some weaknesses within our current process and that's what we've now worked hard to tighten up now within those buildings within those schools where we are we have control a significant try it makes it significantly easier but clearly in the further that a school gets away from our control it becomes more complex and it will come down to lease agreements and the like etc but the exact mechanics of that are brutally honest I don't know the answer to that's very helpful perhaps you could provide a note to the committee at some point about that David I just wondered if Natalie might know more widely about this in not just school buildings but other buildings that we have some degree of responsibility for I leave that off I leave things such as these off up to my office of colleagues to be honest Councillor Harper I think we do have a really high compliance is it around 96 to 98 percent yeah 96 percent compliance so we're actually looking at a really really small proportion I do think I can think of one particular school that I know we did have an asbestos problem with that actually is in our control but they've put their hands up and just left it all to us to sort out even though there is an onus on the school as I previously said to abide by these rules but these procedures that are in place and so I do think with our FM service completely changing with it being outsourced to macro that macro who are proving to be really really good so far and a large number of our staff chupied over with them so that knowledge went to macro that they will hopefully pick it up and possibly provide sanctions if necessary but I don't quite know what sanctions we could impose on each of you really don't know thank you very much if there's no other supplement is if we could move to the section on children's homes question eight Steve thank you chair so question related to the performance of the children homes where sorry Council is the employer and other any that there are concern to the council in regard to their health and safety performance thank you so apart from the children's homes are opened this year because we've got a couple haven't we I think that vote in this year all the homes of had health and safety inspections were gaps were identified the home manager was provided with an action plan and dates for implementation for those actions the actions are then followed up with the adviser within the time frames that it has been agreed all of the homes have good systems in place and the children's families lifelong learning health and safety devices have a good relationship with the home managers one of the resource managers is one of the children's home managers sits on the CFL health and safety committee and they represent the other managers there and they ensure that there's effective two way communication around risks and issues so this is an opportunity for them to bring to the committee issues and areas and also to take feedback back to the other managers the significant findings from the inspections demonstrate the homes have systems in place to manage health and safety arrangements and I can if you would like to give you a few of those areas where we've identified improvements with that the helpful so we've got some gaps in some of the building compliance records where statutory certificates were not available at the time of the inspection I think they were waiting for some information to come from land and property contractors there's also some slight gaps around their health and safety roles and responsibilities of what they're expected to do and also some risk assessments that have been overdue for reviews and then finally on site traffic management some of the homes are quite small but some of them have got quite a big area so they do need to do something about segregation the children from the vehicles that are on site thank you okay thank you very much I'll move to my question number nine can someone give some context 119 help workplace health and safety incidents in the past year which involved employees and service users and recorded on oceans what kind of incidents would be placed in each category and this is this number what you would expect or hope for thank you Leslie the health and safety advisors have been promoting the reporting of incidents on oceans or oceans some people call it that with staff in the direct trip for the past year this is resulted in an increase in the numbers that we've seen reported we see this as a positive change in reporting creating an improved health and safety culture and engagement with staff and it provides opportunities to share learning and discuss what else the council can be doing to support staff and its service users I've got a bit of quite significant breakdown of some of those categories that we provided as part of the report so in terms of the incidents placed in the abuse threat and violence category we had 14 they were they fell into the categories of verbal abuse threatened and behavior assault and behavioral issues most of these incidents related to managing challenging behavior in young people and staff were unable to put in suitable de-escalation techniques they were also as a part of the report once it's reported they get followed up in terms of actions and staff received additional training where there were gaps and they were supported by their manager around the report and the incident that had happened so that's in that category do you want me to pause there before we go on to the next one or just go on to carry on so in terms of the near-miss incidents we had 18 these fell into the categories of self-harm medication errors illness unplanned medical interventions harmful substance or exposure to harmful substance burns of through hot liquids or surfaces think kettles or gas hobs contact where they were hit by a fixed object and contact hit by a moving vehicle and a full from height just mentioning about the increase in near-miss reporting again that gives us insightful data and it demonstrates the understanding of the service to record these incidents it was recognized at one or two of those should have been reported as an injury or incident as opposed to a near-miss but also there was an opportunity one one particularly near-miss was around the process for administration of medication and the wrong medication because of the process that was in place the wrong medication was not given to a child which could subsequently be catastrophic I guess so the swift action of the staff on those occasions meant that they were able to intervene and make sure that didn't happen which is why they were classified as near-misses and also preventing self-harm with young people and then in the injury category there were 87 incidents and these include injuries to staff children and young people so it's not just solely for staff and as you would expect I think in that environment we've just talked about self-harm there's also violence slips trips and falls behavioral issues cuts electricity again we talked about burns liquids and then contacts so incidents of abuse and violence against staff or other residents often lead to injury some of these could be minor and then we had a couple of falls from bikes some slips trips and falls the more serious incidents were around self-harm and violence assault on a person which could have been an assault for a person from a resident to another resident or a service user to a member of staff thank you thank you very much a very full answer which I'm very pleased about the categorization of these things I say that because some years ago scrutinizing incidents and complaints at a hospital I discovered that cutting the wrong limb off and I didn't like the pudding would have been in the same category we got it changed do you have any indication how this compares with other authorities? Thank you I'm sure you can appreciate that other authorities are different so there's a different makeup so they may have a different number of homes they may have a different number of children the age ranges might be all different I mean what we've seen is the increase in the number of reports and we talked about that happening because of the awareness and improved reporting that we've got and also the team worked really hard with the service leads and representatives to make sure staff encouraged that reporting so it would be really difficult to compare that to other neighboring authorities just because of the different variables so I don't have that information what I'm clear about is that we are doing really well as a council to make sure we're capturing that and the importance of it thank you thank you very much I have no other supplement oh thank you Jim at the last council meeting I asked Natalie for indication of children's homes and other homes and gave a very comprehensive report which I publicly thank you and with the work that the county are carrying out and providing new homes obviously these are going to be fit for purpose they're going to be within the law and future-proofed as much as they can be because we can never prejudge what's going to come around the corner but one would like to think that the number of instances will be reducing as the quality and the scope of the estate in its broadest sense are improved so can I just say thank you and look forward to hearing a reduction in concerns issued thank you Jim. Leslie. May I just I think the nature of the incidents particularly we see around the abuse threats violence etc will probably not reduce over the period of time because it's just the nature of young people and some of these have got really traumatic backgrounds and the staff do really well to support them I think the home environment is really important and the work that they do but with incidents of self harm and abuse threats and violence I think it would be quite difficult to see a reduction in those. Okay thank you very much indeed we'll come to the recommendations then draft recommendations Julie. Apologies it's not playing well. There we go the first one the select committee recommends that in order that cabinet takes accountability for the council's health and safety improvement strategy as recommended by the local government association cabinet in addition to the central joint health safety and well-being committee endorses the health safety and well-being strategy and action plan for 2024 to 2026. The next recommendation. Members and the cabinet members happy with those. Okay is that agreed? Thank you. Second one. In order to promote awareness of the key risks across all directors executive directors are represented on the central joint health safety and well-being committee on a rotating basis. Thank you. So each director is already represented at the committee and this is for the purpose of promoting awareness of key risk across the directors and organisations. The executive directors are all members of CLT and as we mentioned in the beginning they take an annual turn to chair the meeting so we feel that that recommendation is already covered by the purpose of the committee and the terms of reference. Yes, it wasn't entirely clear to us from the terms of reference but I think certainly I'm prepared to accept that that is the case. Are the committee happy with that? Thank you very much. Do you want to have it listed in the terms of reference? Yes, that's a good idea. At the moment in the terms of reference it's not listed under the membership, the executive directors. Sorry, they're not listed because they take a turn annually to chair the meeting. The current terms of reference shows the chair as Dan Quinn who is the CLT executive director effectively so he is chairing it for this year and it does say in the terms of reference I'm sure I need to double check that that we will at the meeting we will be agreeing who will chair the following year so for 2025. What about if we put in something after the words key risks, something that the TOR should clarify that. All directors and executive directors are represented or something of that sort. Julie's a very good writer so I'm sure she would get that right. Yes, Steve. Chair, might we just keep the recommendation as is if it's already covered or implemented and then fine we can basically just reference it later on and make a note in the minutes that it does appear to be referenced in the TOR etc and the makeup of the committee but at least it's in our recommendations as long as we keep it as wise we start to chop and change it around. Would that be fair? Thank you. May we just check. So the executive directors, all the directors are represented by senior managers. The executive director and CLT effectively for us are the same so they will chair that annually. Is there a requirement? Is that what this recommendation is, just so we're clear. David. I don't think your microphone is on, is it? Oh, it's gone now. It just seems to me that it's not clear what we're talking about. What is on a rotating basis? What do you mean is not that they're represented on a rotating basis so it needs to have a little bit in just before on a rotating basis with the chair being rotated, being on a rotating basis. So you can put after committee in the bottom line and put a comma and say with the chair being, you see what I mean? I think the point is it's not the chair, it's the making sure that each director is represented and we're clear. Each director is represented by a senior manager, not by an executive director, because the executive director chairs it. The only question is, do you want to put all in front of executive directors? Can I just, we all agreed, we know exactly what we're talking about. Let's not fuss about with words. Let's take it offline. This is really not an issue at all. Yes, if the scoot in the officer could agree that with Leslie wording that reflects what we think, that will be very helpful. Thank you. Okay, recommendation three. The new suite of corporate health and safety KPIs agreed with the corporate leadership team in September 23 are presented to cabinet members quarterly and included in the quarterly resources and performance select committee performance monitoring reports. Yes. Are people happy with that? Sorry, I just wanted to make one point on that is that the monitoring reports are, it says that they're about building compliance. May I say that the KPIs are about people? So we did, I did discuss with Councillor Dina's this morning as to whether that would be appropriate to include that in that area. Thank you. And what did you conclude? I think that wording is fine. I think, you know, we're just word smithing now. I think it's fine as it is there and we can work around that. Okay, that's very helpful. Thank you. Thank you. One word I haven't seen anywhere on here is training. How would you like that reflected? There's needs to be, you know, training updated more modern training given to the different levels. Whether it's a form of a briefing, it doesn't need to be wide ranging but it does need to be updated on modern practices and used. I'm a great advocate of training. I love lifelong training. We all do it but it should be somewhere down the line. There should be training in the latest techniques, the latest legislation or whatever it is. But nowhere here does it say that the, there should be training carried out at different levels within the organisation. Is that, again, something that Leslie and the spirit new officer could concoct? Training is part of our mandatory health and safety training of the new starters and refresher we talked about earlier and we've introduced this year training for the members training briefing session which Councillor Dines introduced earlier this year. So it is part of fundamentally part of everything that we do as a new starter and moving forward. So I think this was specifically around asbestos and the internal audit report. So, you know, we accept that absolutely agree with you that we need to be doing training and we are doing training. It's one of our KPIs. Yeah, so I can't think KPIs are such a blunt instrument but that's a personal view traffic light system. But, you know, I would like to see training somewhere on this. But I leave that to the chairman to sort out afterwards before General Riley throws something at me for belonging matters. I think that's designed to be helpful. Okay, yes, if you could talk, I'm sure we can put something in there that reflects what is asked for and what Leslie has given us. Okay. Recommendation

1. Finally, ahead of May 2025, the members induction booklet must refer to health and safety clarifying how and to whom members should refer any health and safety issue that comes to their attention. Is everybody happy with that? Okay. Thank you very much. Is everybody content with that recommendation and the other recommendations with the two caveats and the two areas that Julie will discuss with Leslie and come back to the committee. Thank you very much indeed. Can I thank the those who have come to give us evidence today? I think the presence of a senior officer and Leslie and Glenn and three cabinet members shows that the council takes this seriously as does this committee and we're very grateful for the answers you've given us. Okay. If we could move to item 6, DB and I task group update. I can't think why you don't want to stay for the entertainment. Can I just remind the committee, this isn't anything like an interim report. It is an update on the progress that has been made and I want to pay tribute to the work that Steve and Jake and indeed Claire have done to bring this report together. It's been a huge amount of work. I think the draft report is good. It's being developed still and I think we are on track to bring it in the way that said in this report. Steve, do you want to outline where we are? Thank you, Chair. The report is a placeholder update on where we are with the task and finished group for the looking at the DB and I task group. Again, the irony is not lost on me that we are late on this particular item. I can see Will smiling there. The best will in the world, we came up with the plan and it didn't line up the way we wanted. Again, possibly a lesson to learn for task and finished groups as well. There is a significant amount of work that has gone on behind the scenes. We are nearly there. The draft report is being pulled together and the timeline that we see in front of us will be met. It will not slip and the updated time that you see in the report will be delivered. Any questions? I am more than happy to take. Thank you. Any questions from members or does Jake want to add anything? No, I think Steve has covered everything there. Thank you very much. Thank you. Okay. Is the report agreed? Thank you very much. I did say at the pre-meeting that we should try to give the two witnesses a hard time. I am glad that you haven't. Item seven notes of resources and performance select committee performance monitoring session. I had no points on that. I think it is an accurate description of what we discussed. Any member have a point on that? No. Thank you. Are they agreed? Thank you very much. Actions and recommendations, Tracker. I think on the first page of Annex B, I was certainly very reassured on this issue by what Liz Mills had to say in the informal session we had with her. It is important that we recognise that some people do not use IT and will probably never be able to use IT and that seemed to be central to what she was saying. Any points any members want to make? Good. Are we agreed? I am so sorry. I did have one point which is on the number of the pages, but it is the section on EDI in Annex B. A bit difficult without page number. There is a page number. Yes. Page 52. Yeah, 52. It is on the quality diversity and inclusion. Item six as it says, the very last point says there be an action plan in due course. I think it would be worth asking the director at what in due course means. It sounds a bit like that famous phrase in the fullness of time. I am sure it does not mean that, but I think we should be clear about that. It would be good to have a note from them what they intend. Thank you very much for that. The action tracker. I had no points on the action tracker. Any colleague have a point on that? Yes, David. Sorry not so much about the action tracker, but in terms of the forward work programme, you have got the date of the next meeting on the 16th of July and looking at my diary, I have got the 18th of July for the meeting. Has there been a change or a mistake in that? That is the typo. It is the 18th. That is the relief. I am glad you noticed I have not. Thank you. Everyone agreed on the forward work programme. Thank you very much. Before I close the meeting, we welcome Jake as our new scrutiny officer and even in the short time he has been double tracking with Julie. We have enjoyed his advice and work. I just want to say how sad we are to lose Julie. Julie has done a fantastic job for us. Her writing is fantastic. It may come from having been a journalist, but we will miss you and I just wanted to record in public our thanks to you for everything you have done for this committee. It was important to embarrass people at places like this. The next meeting is Thursday, indeed the 18th of July and I declare the meeting closed. Thank you very much everyone.

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