Transcript

We're all set. Thank you very much. Good afternoon, everybody. May I welcome you to this meeting of the Licensing Subcommittee of the London Bureau of Tower Hamlets. I'm Councillor Peter Gold, and I am both Chair of the full Licensing Committee, and for the purposes of the hearing this afternoon, I'm chairing this subcommittee. The meeting will be held in person, and committee members, as you can see, and key participants are present in the meeting. There may be some joining us remotely, and of course under the law, all in the gallery, so the cameras do not pick up any of the members of the public. And it is, as I say, it will be on the Council's website for public viewing. I urge everybody who is speaking only to speak at my direction, and when called to speak, switch the microphone on, you'll see it is read like this, and when you have concluded, switch it off. Because, if you don't, it shuts out everybody else, and all that happens is going like that, so it's not terribly helpful. And can I ask people to speak into the microphones? You don't have to pick them up. As you can see, I'm sitting right back. They pick up the sound. Finally, for those contributing to the floor, may I ask you, when you're referring to our bundle that we have before us, which we've all got, to refer to page numbers, because it can be very frustrating if somebody says, look at Appendix 25. Of course, you don't know where Appendix 25 is, and rather than following what is being said, you will see members, and indeed officers, flicking through like mad. And we want to make sure that everybody gets an absolutely fair hearing. And I'm going to invite members and officers to introduce themselves. I've identified myself, but we will stand at the table. David Wong, Legal Services, here to provide legal advice to the councillors. Councillor Abdi Mohamed. Councillor Farouk Ahmed. Thank you very much. We have no apologies for absence, because we're a quarry at meeting. Formally, under item one on the agenda, do any members have any declarations of disposable pecuniary interest, of which I have none. I have no, any of the applicants, councillors? No connections, no. DPS. Chair, I have nothing to clear as well. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Jasmine, if we could record that in the minutes. May I now invite everybody to look at the rules of procedure on pages 9 to 18 on the agenda. This is quasi-judicial meeting, but at the same time, we wish to keep it as collegiate as possible. We're not City Chamber or the House of Commons. If people wish to speak, signal, and make a note, and I will call you. Please don't try and interrupt any other speaker, because it won't help you, and it will not be taken anywhere. Thank you very much. I now move on to reports for consideration. And the first report we have before us is an application for a new premises licence with reference to the Lebanese Grill, 80 Brick Lane, London, E16RL. I'll introduce those in attendance, representing and opposing. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. For this application, we have the licensing representative, Mr. Christopher Montanas, and the applicants, we have Mr. Mahbub Rahman, Lili Chenfang-Chi, and Kumar Javed, present today. In terms of those that have made representation, we have Nikla Kadzo, representing environmental health, and Mr. Moshin Ali, representing licensing authority. Once that application has been presented, Chair, the applicant will be invited to speak, and will be given a total of five minutes to make their representation. The objectors will also receive five minutes to make their representations. I'll let each speaker know when they have one minute remaining. Please note that the subcommittee have read the agenda pack in advance. Thank you. Thank you very much, and who is the licensing officer, to introduce the report to us. Thank you, Chair. This is an application for a new premises license for Lebanese Grill, which is at 80 Brick Lane, London E1 6RL. This premises falls within the Brick Lane community impact area. The applicant has described the premises as a takeaway shop selling Lebanese-style food. A copy of the application is shown in Appendix 1, pages 30 to 46. The hours that have been applied for are, for late-night refreshment, Sunday to Thursday, from 1100 hours until midnight. Friday and Saturday, from 1100 hours until 2 a.m. the following morning. Opening times, Sunday to Thursday, from 10 a.m. until midnight. Friday to Saturday, from 10 a.m. until 2 a.m. the following morning. Site plan of the venue is included at Appendix 2, which is page 48. Map showing the facility is included at Appendix 3, page 50. Images of the premises can be found at Appendix 4, pages 52 to 53. And details of other licensed venues close by are found at, can be found at Appendix 5, pages 55 to 16. Representations have been received by licensing authority, environmental protection. There was a resident objection, but that has now been went to 103. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Ms. Miller. Do any colleagues have any questions to the officer? Thank you. I would now like to invite the applicant to present their application, who will have five minutes to do, so I gather it will be Mr. Montanis, is that correct? Thank you, the floor is yours. Hi, firstly, I'd like to apologise. I'm not a big public speaker, so if I get tongue-tied, that would be why. So, I'd like to just address the application. The application has been submitted by an applicant that hasn't, and I also must commend them as they made the attempt with the right attitude and put an application in as soon as possible, as soon as possible, as soon as they were made aware that they needed a licence. They made an attempt to address the objectives, which, from my experience, has been far more than some other similar applications where no attempt has been made. And this is just to highlight that they have come in with the right attitude and willingness to meet the objectives. Unfortunately, due to lack of knowledge, they didn't address in the application the objectives in a sufficient way, especially with the CI said for the area of Brick Lane. I hope that you can see, with the assistance that has been provided, the applicant is now addressing some of these concerns that have been raised. Crime disorder, we believe, has been met with the agreement with the police and the conditions agreed. Concerns over public nuisance, I believe the conditions that have been subsequently proposed in the last couple of days will go some way from where they started. The local resident has agreed with these conditions and feels satisfied that it tackles the public nuisance and has subsequently withdrew their representation. These conditions also have been incorporated in a work and draft document for the operation manual for the venue, as discussed with licensing. If members do not feel that these are sufficient conditions to appear on the premises license, they will appear on the operations manual. I also want to highlight, in regards to public nuisance aspects, that the flats above are currently owned by the applicant. So they have been rented out alongside the commercial property. And as far as we understand, the property on our left is also owned by the restaurant. And I believe, although I haven't got confirmation yet, that the property on our right is also owned by the respective owner of the takeaway venue. So we don't believe those properties will cause a concern, as they're being used by actual staff members of those establishments. Moreover, this is quite a small premises. The capacity isn't very big. In fact, it's probably one of the smallest in that particular block on Brick Lane. The aim of the operation is to be quick, and I believe helps in taking some of the overflow from neighbouring businesses, meaning that hopefully the intent is that people will get served quicker and receive their food and are essentially on their way a lot sooner than hanging around, waiting to be served somewhere else. This should aid in discouraging congregation outside venues, as well as encouraging dispersal of individuals from the area. This, I hope, helps the committee to feel that the applicant will add positively to the area and the licensing objectives. Now, I want to come to operationally, the applicant has applied for temporary event notices, which I believe the licensing authority will highlight. And they applied for the following days, the 13th to the 17th of December, 19th to the 25th of December, 27th to the 29th of December, 31st to the 5th of December, 5th of Jan, apologies, 11th to the 13th of Jan, and a rejected application for the 24th to the 26th of January. Okay, all these applications were from basically 2,300 hours to 3 o'clock in the morning, which is an hour longer than what's been applied for. You have one minute remaining. Okay, this brings me to the incident on 1st of Feb. So, firstly, I have spoken to my client. They understand the severity of the incident and how badly it can reflect on them. They acknowledge and apologise for what occurred and fully recognise it. This was not out of malice or looking to flout the rules. They intended to apply for a temporary event notice for that particular weekend. But I believe the one that was rejected had left them confused. And the application that they intended to submit slipped. On that particular night, staff made an assumption that they were allowed because no one informed them that they didn't get the 10. And unfortunately, this is down to miscommunication and oversight and no malice intended. They have taken this on board and will ensure everyone understands. I've also gone over how 10s work as they were left quite confused, especially as they aren't personal licence holders. And anyone that's dealt with 10s will be aware there's a lot of caveats in that. And even people with personal licences sometimes struggle. Also, as the owners of Muslims and the establishment is halal-based, they would not be involved in any alcohol. And so, would not be seeking to get a personal licence. They wouldn't go on a course because there wouldn't be some alcohol, which is a requirement. So, it puts them at a disadvantage. I have also gone over how the staff handled the visit. Although licensing and knowledge that the venue was busy, I have highlighted that this wasn't acceptable and they fully understand this. And they understand and will make sure that all their staff understand that any official visits carried out by licensing, police, or any other members of the council, they must fully comply and give up their time to meet and answer any questions. Thank you very much. I'm going to invite the objectors to present their objections. They have five minutes each. We begin with Nicola Kadza. Thank you, Chair. My representation is based on the public nuisance and my concerns over public nuisance and the fact that the premises is in Brick Lane Communiative Impact Zone. I know it's been brought up since the application tonight, today. The hours... The council's framework hours are till 11.30 on Monday, Thursday, midnight, Friday, and Saturday, and Sunday, 10.30. Sorry, before I carry on, sorry, I should say my representation is on page 68 to 70, appendix 7. Sorry. Sorry, Chair. The hours that they're applying for, particularly for the Friday and Saturday nights, is two hours extra on framework hours. And I made an error. It's till midnight on Sunday, not two o'clock as in my application. So there's another hour and a half on a Sunday extension of hours. Now, looking at page 39, on the operating schedule for the prevention of public nuisance, there are some conditions here. So to minimise noise disturbance. We will control noise disturbance. There's no specifics on how they're going to do that. And also discourage loitering. How will they discourage loitering? There's no specific details on the conditions that are in the operating schedule. And I haven't seen the amended noise conditions. They haven't been forwarded to me, so I haven't seen what the applicant has proposed. The fact that it is in the CIZ is a concern with the extension of hours. And I would ask that the committee, if they are going to grant it, that the conditions, better conditions are applied to the application. Because from what I've seen, they're very general and don't give any specific details of how they're going to deal with people loitering outside and causing a nuisance. So thank you very much. Thank you, Ms. Kajan. I now invite Moshin Ali on behalf of the Licensing Authority to present his objection. Thank you, Chair. I'm representing the Licensing Authority acting as a responsible authority. And the representation is in page 62 onwards. The representation is under the prevention of crime and disorder and the public nuisance licensing objectives. Now, going through the representation, I won't repeat every word that's in there. I'll highlight the main points that's been raised. So, if I just give you a little timeline. You've heard about previous test purchases occurring without a license. So that application was received on the 18th of November. This was following a complaint by the Licensing Authority that on the 15th of November, 2024, there was a complaint that the premises had been trading beyond hours without a license. Now, on the same night, a test purchase was carried out at 11.58 and they were sold hot food without a license. So, you can argue, I suppose, if they're suggesting that they didn't know what licensable activities were or what requirements they need under the Licensing Act. So, since then, they made an application on the 18th of November and in the meantime, they had also applied for temporary events notices. So, at this point, I would say that they knew what the law was. They knew that they shouldn't be trading past their hours because they didn't have a license. This was proven by the fact that they've applied for TENS. So, they know that they had to apply for a license. And the latest TENS that they had was on the 16th of January, which was for the 24th and the 26th of January, 2025. So, to then have a test purchase carried out, you look at the supplemental agenda, page 2, that's been sent in. So, further test purchase carried out on the 1st of December at 00.01. So, one minute past midnight. Again, hot food was sold and there was no temporary events notice. Now, you can probably argue if there was an application which had been rejected, that there could have been some communication problems. But, as I said, there was no application for that night which was rejected. So, you can't really argue the fact that we thought we had a license which was rejected. And if communication wasn't made to the staff, then there's a serious management problem at the premises. So, that's the update where they've failed a second test purchase effectively after knowing. So, this is currently being investigated and there's potential legal action being taken. But, it's not being concluded so I can't confirm where that is at the moment. So, leaving that aside, you've heard that they've applied, they've offered various conditions to the authorities. However, the licensing authority feels that whichever condition they offer you, knowing that they've breached the Licensing Act knowingly, we have no confidence that they will uphold whichever conditions you apply to the license. So, in conclusion, usually you hear us say on a balance of probability we do not feel the license should be granted. But, here today we're saying it's not a balance of probability, it's we have evidence, you've seen the evidence that they have breached it. So, what we're saying is that the owners clearly have a blatant disregard to the licensing laws and the authority have no belief they will abide by the terms of premises license if they are granted. Therefore, the licensing authority feel this application should be refused entirely. That's the summary of my representation. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ali. We now move to questions and I should direct the first question to the applicant. Are you aware that it's located in the cumulative impact area? And were we mindful of granting an application? How would you provide late-night refreshments or how would the provision of late-night refreshments from these premises not add to the cumulative impact of public nuisance and potential crime and disorder within the area, particularly of what we've heard from the licensing officer? Hi. So, just to clarify, my client became aware of the cumulative impact area after making the application when they received the objections. Like I said, they had no previous experience with licensing so they wouldn't have been essentially looking for the policy document although they would have been recommended to. Unfortunately, they put in the application but didn't read the policy document. They wouldn't have been aware that this existed. Now, saying that, they are aware since the application was made and licensing have made them aware of the CI said and I have gone over this with them since. Now, as mentioned in regards to the temporary event notices that I've made and they successfully, as far as I'm aware, there's been no complaints at all or any incidences highlighted during those events that were operating until three in the morning. So, I like to say that I believe it adds some proof that they can operate within those times and they do not add a burden to the area. I also like to highlight the seven conditions that I have proposed although I understand noise for the conditions. I have to share with these if you like. So, I can go over them if you like or... I think it's the... it's the additional annex. So, I have got... Now, some of these conditions have been offered in different words that at the time wouldn't be deemed appropriate for a licence. so I have worked with the applicants to basically redraft what was proposed with the local resident that objected and what they agreed to and made them into seven conditions that I think are appropriate for it to appear on the licence. It would take steps to obviously put signage up internally and externally. There was concerns over vehicles being parked outside so there will be signage trying to advise anyone that has a vehicle outside to not have it... not idling, have windows rolled up, no music being played out. Also for anyone that's waiting to, you know, be respectful as well as people leaving the premises with their food as well to be respectful. Also, I have discussed with the applicant about regularly checking the front of the premises as part of the operation to make sure the place is cleaned up in front, that they're not adding rubbish to the area, that they're taking responsibility for the immediate vicinity of anything that may be attributed to the premises or not attributed at the end of the day keeping the area clean. As part of that and the operation of going in front is also to interact with any customers or not... or even customers that... people that aren't customers that are just congregating outside to encourage them to be aware that residents do live nearby. also it's been agreed that ingress and egress notwithstanding all doors and windows will be closed after midnight to prevent as much breakout sound. And it's already advised reasonable steps will be taken by the establishment to discourage loitering and disperse people quickly. Also, I've advised them that the best thing they can also do is to make sure that any food they provide is closed and to basically discourage immediate eating. So if it's rats or anything that they're not open for them, they are getting them closed so they're encouraged to walk away with them instead of eating right there and there as well. As I said, some of these items will appear in a draft operation document and I have advised that they can seek advice from responsible authorities as well for any additional recommendations they would like to make that may help with the establishment for that document as well. I have said in regards to obviously the flats upstairs where all members of staff at the premises as breakout rooms and such. I also highlight that there is neighbouring business with a similar model and I understand that sometimes there is overflow from that business and I believe that this establishment being there at those times will also aid in essentially minimising. I turn back to the establishment of the CIZ. The reason is the reason that we have the CIZ is because there is saturation of such premise behaviour which was the reason the CIZ was implemented. Your clients have opened these premises you have said they were ignorant of the process uncomprehending of the process. On at least two occasions they were opening beyond the hours and serving when they shouldn't be and test purposes were undertaken. one would have thought after the first occasion they might have attempted to do with something but there was a second occasion and we have the extraordinary paragraph on the letter that officers went in there and were concerned and looked at the what could only be described as the crowd outside and effectively decided to go away. this is not an indication of premises that wish to work with the authority and ask us to consider breaking our rule on the CIZ and that is what it is. Were we to grant these additional hours because the premises are entitled to operate within the framework hours but if we are to break those somebody has to demonstrate to us a reason for doing that and all we have before us today are premises that have clearly not done that and seem to be completely unwilling seem to also think that they can operate on a string of temporary event notices. I mean one has lots of premises have occasional temporary event notices but this is week after week. Well like I did actually try to address in the introduction the first incident I think can be marked down as pure ignorance. I don't think we can escape that. I think to my clients and they weren't aware that it required a license at the time. Now since then they have become aware they made the application what they weren't aware was about the CI set hence why there was no trying to address it in the application. Like I said they did make the best attempt with the lack of knowledge and made that application within what I believe a week well three days I think from when licensing visited and they looked to resolve this. After further advice from licensing I believe they received from licensing they did make application for tens and they were successful and as far as I know there was no reported complaints or instances from those tens. What I have tried to highlight in my introduction was that it was a genuine mistake. They are looking and they have become more aware especially since I've been involved with them this week have gone over certain stuff and I made them aware of how crucial it is that they should operate with the authorities and work in conjunction with them and they take that on board and we'll make sure the staff are fully aware as well. Now as licensing pointed out the establishment was busy I have said that. I have also said that that is also not excuse and that all their staff members will be made aware from this point on that they should work. Now the traditional managers that would be on site were there that particular weekend so I believe that. Wonderful question. I'd like other councillors to ask questions. Thank you Chair. I think a lot of your statement has come from the ignorance in terms of not understanding the licensing. I'd argue that if they're owning a shop and owning a business in onus is on them to understand that so I'm not entirely sure that's one that can be entirely forgiven it makes sense and it's the first time it happened I think it was November but I don't think you've answered the point about the second one where there's only a matter of weeks ago so I suppose there's two questions one to the licences officer just in your supplementary agenda 3.1 you talk about the officers left for their safety can you just talk a bit more about that do you mean because of the large crowd or do you mean because there was hostility from the staff because it talks about non-compliance and non-engagement from the staff but I think it's helpful to understand was it the crowd or was it the staff I don't have the full details but going by experience usually when officers attend these kind of premises a crowd does build up and they do start coming and looking towards officers and stuff in the case of this one I think they've just said observed a crowd of people inside and outside also noted there was a large crowd waiting to order so usually when you stop the people from ordering because you're officers with badges the crowd generally starts looking towards you and probably questions or whatever so I assume that's what it would have been and they would have felt intimidated because there would have been a large crowd looking at them and stuff and they don't want to engage further there there wasn't mention of any sort of specific incidents from the staff in that sense but that's what I would say that's helpful so obviously taking an experience not entirely sure what the actual issue was in that sense we can take the crowd being but I want to specifically focus on there's only a matter of weeks ago that this happened again so first time right we'll give you the benefit of the doubt the second time to then put an application that comes before licensing it just doesn't entirely sit comfortably in terms of I suppose is there a reason these applications come now and not in six months time where you've had a chance to prove now you're fully aware of the rules and regulations thank you for just giving me a chance to explain this actually I have to say it's a mistake because at that time I was traveling and I was traveling in Egypt and my business partner they went back to Pakistan so only staff there so but that's not an excuse and when I came back I reflected it and we discussed and we said a set of mirrors we definitely have stopped this and you know I think because at that time when I traveled I told them I have applied for the late turns I have applied for the turns so they misunderstood me and we you know I actually I did apply but you know I forgot to tell them because I was traveling so but I know this is not an excuse so we have set mirrors and we also have set clearly in Google Maps because you know we have you know found a company to do Google Maps for us I told them set up the timetable clearly we open from 11 to 11 so let people know that after 11 we will close so we have taken all mirrors to do this kind of things so we learned the lessons from this because we are all new we never run business before so we need to learn so we just learn the things and we of course we sincerely want to obey the rules and we respect the rules in Tower Hamlets so that's what I want to explain I think that's helpful I don't it doesn't entirely make sense to me so I appreciate you've set up some measures and you've put some mitigations in place and I still don't think it necessarily answers my questions and there is more concerns about the most recent of these breaches which I think it's one to kind of follow up but I'll let my colleague come in would you like to answer can I add something yes you know about these merits we also appointed you know Mr Mahabub and Kama you know and our manager you know to control all of these kind of things we have appointed you know concrete people to do this you know to make sure the responsibility you know to make sure this kind of thing won't happen again sorry there is one more question then how recently did you appoint how recently did you put these measures in place when did you do this so when were the measures put in place when did you put these measures and appoint people how recently oh just when we realized this when we were informed about this you know then we immediately made the merriment and you know I also I emailed this merit to David and Mr Cunningham Mr David Cunningham and you know he has the reputation against everyone who wants to do this but when I talked with him he completely agreed with me and he can see that my sincere attitude you know to contribute to resolve these problems so he that's why he has withdrawn his objections otherwise he couldn't any question yes thank you it's it's the question that you have asked that was my question as well but some answers have been delivered but can I just ask something else do you have a contract about the waste collection and how and usually how do you dispose your waste oh yes we do have that's not a contract that's I emailed the council we are using the council collection and I bought we bought the you know the bags and the badges from the council constantly yes every time we need yeah so sorry I mean you normally email to the council or you have a contract with the council yes we emailed the council then council emailed us back put us registered us with the council waste collection system so we after that we can we just buy online and they deliver to us thank you thank you sir um look I really have re-read the letter which is put before us and it's dated the 17th February which is very very short here let me put it on the record two officers returned to the premises shortly afterwards this is at one o'clock in the morning or approaching one o'clock in the morning and noted there were approximately nine people inside hot food was observed still being cooked and sold the officers identified themselves and they would do so and wave one of these and were told to wait an attempt was made to carry out an interview but the staff were non-compliant they think of that carefully the staff were non-compliant and with a large crowd waiting for food it was decided to leave the location at half past midnight for officer safety reasons how on earth can we consider that that is conduct becoming of these premises breaking the rules of a CIZ which are absolutely clear written in stone and this application is for premises slap bang wallop within the CIZ head I assume me bringing this up in the introduction may have been premature because I was hoping that some of it would have been able to answer that in the introduction so as I said have gone over this with the clients and they will make sure that all staff are aware that they must comply with any visits from the council or the police I fully understand that the establishment is busy obviously licensing have also kind of said that it is unclear what exactly the last statement about feeling unsafe is regarding but the presumption is it's more about the number of people waiting for food than necessarily the establishment that was the cause of concern and I don't think we've got any further clarification on that so I don't think that's necessarily on the venue being a threat to officers which I like to make clear which is obviously I'm a bit worried that that's what's coming across in the letter which I'm not sure is correct but like I said my clients are fully aware that any time an officer does come and visit they should fully comply and they will make all their staff aware as well to dedicate the time with those officers regardless how busy it is sorry just to clarify I think that's why I did see clarification and I think the officer helpfully did clarify whether it was the crowds or it was the staff and I think there's any implication that it was the staff and that was helpfully clarified I think it was just the nature from the experience from the officer talking about the nature of a crowd and showing a badge which might bring a crowd to what I watch I think just to clarify that I think is really important and I was further clarifying the officer will respond and you and Keitel to come back thank you sure I can go into a bit more details if you like I've got some notes as we entered I could hear orders still being taken this is for the second test purchase having identified ourselves to members of staff who was closest to the door I asked to speak to the manager the mail pointed down the counter and stated he is here as I made my way to the rear of the building a member of staff stated we are closed when I pointed that they were still serving he replied we're just moving the customers out we're busy it's Friday just give us five minutes I explained I explained I would wait five minutes then I would speak to MR who's the officer if he would like to order after several minutes a mail worker appeared the back of the staff area with a handful of metal skewers with marinated meat on them before one worker stated we're closed and directing him back during our time in the premises the mail workers were conversing with each other in native language but several times one mail could be heard stating we're closed 11pm to the workers and it states presumably for our benefit I can carry on a bit more if you want but there is so I made my way back to front of the shop so my B unit captured any transaction for evidential purposes observed they began turning off the cooking equipment at this point at 0026 hours we witnessed the last card transaction the premises was cleared of customer through the door remained open and unlocked an attempt was made to try and engage with the staff to carry out our PACE interview people attempted to enter the shop where a member of staff stated we're closed last order is 11pm and there's more I don't know if you still want me to carry on going with further details sorry I think the contentious point is why they left so I think you've talked us through from when they got and they were willing to wait and you were just getting to the point of 026 where they were back to leave so it would be helpful to carry on a little bit longer I did notice there were several people still loitering around outside the premises door as the last customer left I spoke to IC7 mail member who appeared to be in charge to him being the most vocal towards members of staff stating that they need to close multiple times as I began engaging with mail the staff began to stand around him I explained the reason for my visit and explained that they do not currently have a late night freshman license the mail stated yeah but I was busy I can't just throw the customers out I had about 25 people inside I kept telling customers that I finished at 11pm but they keep pushing in that was the end quote while I was engaging with the mail I observed two mails enter the premises and stand directly behind the officer leaning in to hear the conversation one of the mails kept staring in a hostile manner the mail worker continued I can't keep people out when they are in but tomorrow I will shut down at 11pm it was explained that he took the last card payment at midnight 26 past midnight to which he appeared to shrug it off the mail who was standing behind the officer continued to stare in a hostile manner and diverted his glaze between officer and myself multiple times having challenged the mail took a step back but continued to watch us I noted the crowd outside the premises were now looking in and watching officer and myself more closely a second male member of staff then stated sometimes we get a phone call before the mail cut him off and indicated the end of the conversation with us I think I'm coming to an end now as the mail was reluctant to engage with us I informed the mail that licensing team would be in contact with him in due course that we would be monitoring the location from now on and that's there does the applicant wish to respond to that actually I would like to say thank you for providing further information I will be taking this up with my clients even further and we will go over this personally because it is quite serious what's being brought I have to say because I'm sitting looking at you your client seemed staggeringly disinterested as that report was being presented as both of them were scrolling through their phones can I just ask one question sorry to the agent has there been a thought about deferring this for a couple of months to allow for time to show their full understanding and full compliance I think it would be helpful to I have recommended that we delay but I was only appointed two days ago so given the late nature they felt that this would be probably better time spent understanding further the process and what the outcomes are as well as what's being presented as for example some of this information know the full details beyond what was given in the letter now we'll work with them to obviously further understand this I think we've reached the point of summing up for which for which the object I'm sorry I'm sorry about that the object just have a minute and then the applicant will have a minute and Mr. Allie and then Ms. Kedja conclusion thank you chair I think in the interest of fairness I should also state that the premises was also visited on the 7th of February 2025 at 23 20 hours and the premises was found to be closed so I should share that just to be fair in conclusion I would say you've heard that there's been no complaints having said that you I mean you've seen the statement from officers about large crowd of people both inside and outside the premises obviously noted that there was a large crowd waiting to order and waiting to receive food you also heard officers noting customers are standing on the street blocking the pavement which causes a problem so officers did note problems in terms of public nuisance and you've seen evidence of crime disorder so normally when we conclude we set on a balance of probability that application is likely to meet the licensing objectives in this case I would say you've seen evidence in front of you to suggest that the premises will not comply with the licensing objectives and therefore should be rejected thank you following on from Moshin's summary I mean the premises is in cumulative impact zone we've heard about the groups congregating outside there's concerns about public nuisance from that point of view and what is to say if the applicant was granted to extension of hours till midnight and 2am on Friday and Saturday is that they wouldn't actually if there's a lot of people that want serving they wouldn't actually serve them after two o'clock so we're going into later hours in the night and I'm a bit concerned that the applicants fully understand the licensing act 2003 and the four licensing objectives thank you very much Mr. Montanis just to actually thank the licensing authority and the noise authority as well as the councillors for providing further information as well as something that I can actually go with the clients and that's my closest statement right thank you very much we've heard from everybody and the committee will deliberate in a private session and as a matter of public record when we move to the private session the three oh sorry Councillor Farouk thank you chair this is to the applicant what we've heard from the officer on that statement my understanding is that the applicant or the business owner they knew exactly what they were doing and what they're supposed to do and the intimidation and the behaviour of the business owner of the staff which is totally unacceptable and would you agree with me that I understand they knew exactly what they were doing and they were doing it wrongly I wouldn't fully support that statement I would say that my clients who made the application were making the best attempt to do the application and what they were putting forward there was a miscommunication and an oversight in regards to the application of tents and I believe that the instant on the night which we'll take on board and we'll take it up with staff reflects that not that they were intending to flaunt the rules but I will take it up with my clients take it up with their staff making sure that staff are fully aware and compliant going forward I apologize to everybody I think the question will be put to the lawyer when we deliberate I was going to say that we deliberate in a private session but when we go to private session we are accompanied by Ms. Yasmin who takes notes of it for purposes should there be obviously for the decision notice and Mr. Wong who is the lawyer who is there to give us the appropriate advice on everything we need to know the objectors who although their council officers and the licensing officer are not present their departure is as much as yours so we move from that we will deliberate we will then consider this and you will be formally notified of our decision within five working days in a letter by Ms. Yasmin the letter will tell you what our decision was and whether the decision was a majority or unanimous decision we had reached the summing up therefore we conclude thank you very much for your contribution thank you chair and committee and everyone we now move to our second application so if everybody could if the people for the next application 3.2 can move in no no don't talk thank you very much everybody we now move to the second application item 3.2 on our agenda which is the application for new premises license for bad boy pizza 419 Bethnal Green Road London E2 OAN Ms. Yasmin if you would like to announce who everybody is I think I can work it out thank you chair for this application we have Sarah Taylor who is the legal representative and Charlie Reeves who is the applicant who are present and those persons that have made representation we have Mr Godip Singh who is present and in a capacity as a resident after the application has been presented the applicant will be invited to speak and will give a total of five minutes to make the representation the objector will also receive five minutes to make their representation I'll let you know when you have one minute remaining and please note that the subcommittee have read the agenda pack in advance thank you chair I said again you sat and seen how we do it I try to keep this as collegiate as possible and as friendly because although we are elected members and we're rather used to these formal proceedings it's probably the first time Mr. Singh has ever set foot in a local authority let alone addressing a meeting and possibly Mr. Reeves lightly so we try and keep it as informal as possible I do like people to keep attention if we have presentations to watch what we're presenting or listen to what we're presenting if I could now invite Ms. Miller Johnson to present the report to us Ms. Miller Johnson Thank you Chair This is an application for a new premises license for Bad Boy Pizza which is at 419 Bethnal Green Road London E2 0 A N The applicant has described the premises ages 116 to 134 They have applied for sale of alcohol on and off sales Monday to Thursday from 12 noon until 11 30 pm and Friday and Saturday from 12 noon until midnight Sundays 12 noon 10 30 pm Late night refreshment has also been applied for Monday to Thursday from 11 pm until 11 30 pm Friday and Saturday from 11 pm until midnight opening hours for the premises Monday to Thursday from 12 noon until 11 30 pm Friday Saturday from 12 noon until 10 30 pm Site plan of the venue is included as appendix 2 pages 136 to 137 Maps showing the local facility is included as appendix 3 page 139 photo of the premises is included as appendix 4 page 141 9 pages 164 to 165 there's also guidance for members which can be found at appendices 10 to 14 pages no questions to the licensing officer now I'd like to invite Ms Taylor to present the application you have five minutes thank you very much chair can I just begin by requesting a slight correction to the committee report which I'm hoping will be favourable opening hours that we're seeking on Fridays and Saturdays are actually midnight rather than tea which hopefully is better for everybody so I thought I'd clarify that to begin it's on page 106 chair of the committee report if that helps thank you so as you've heard this is an application for bad boy pizza society this is a third bricks and mortar site for bad boy you'll have seen in the supplemental agenda pack chair that I've served some information on the brand and the background of the brand and what the operation is like so this is for university friends with a passion for pizza there are worst passions in the world that started a society at university they have run tours to Italy to explore pizza different varieties the history of pizza etc that started through the pandemic and they offered a delivery service and they're now rolling out bricks and mortar sites they've chosen a site on Bethnal Green Road thankfully it's out of cumulative impact and you'll see chair from the hours that we've applied for the applicant is seeking sale of alcohol late night refreshment opening hours but no regulated entertainment so this will be as described in the application chair a pizza restaurant it won't be a nightclub it won't be a vertical drinking establishment it's not going to be anything high velocity just a really good quality pizza a limited selection of beers and wines but the focus will very much be on food the hours that have been applied for chair are within the council's framework hours set out in paragraph 16.8 of the policy we're aware of the fact that that doesn't automatically mean that it will be granted and obviously we've got representations which I'll come to shortly but I'm hopeful that the hours and the fact that they're within the framework hours plus the conditions that the applicant has offered will give some comfort both to the committee and hopefully directors of how the premises will operate and that it will be operated responsibly the applicants offered a number of conditions 22 in total and they can be seen at page 159 to 162 of the committee papers those conditions are wide ranging it is a restaurant but obviously the operators wanted to ensure that they put the application in with regard to any likely concerns that would arise I think it's debatable whether that's happened because we've got objections but obviously we're here and we want to discuss that with you and also with Mr Singh too so the focus will be food there's no application for music no other regulated entertainment this will be really high quality good quality pizza and a limited selection of alcohol as well we did have a query chair from the environmental health team just regarding conditions and the environmental health team had picked up on something that Mr Singh had also picked up on which was the opportunity for people to stand outside or to potentially linger outside what we've done chair just to address that concern is agree a condition which read persons permitted to temporarily leave and then re-enter the premises for example to smoke shall not be permitted to take drinks or glass containers with them and shall be limited to six persons after 9pm again just to offer some comfort that there won't be large amounts of people gathering outside the premises post 9pm other than that chair we don't have any other objections from responsible authorities and I've put in these missions that I've made paragraph 9.12 of the guidance that essentially states that the responsible authorities are our guide in terms of whether the licensing objectives are likely to be undermined so I'd suggest chair that they won't that's not to discount the fact that we've got representations however but it's just to clarify for the committee that there have been no other concerns that the grant of this application subject to those conditions that we've offered would be an issue we have unfortunately received a representation from Mr Singh the applicant has written to Mr Singh just to set out how the premises will operate give a little bit more information about the background Mr Singh has decided to maintain his representation that's absolutely he's right we're happy to discuss it today we're happy to discuss it at any time but I'm hopeful chair that just going through the points in the representation there are some quotes in terms of incidents injuries from traffic incidents incidents of crime and disorder whilst I don't dispute that those have happened what I would suggest chair is that they don't directly relate to this premises or to this type of operator bad boy have got bricks and mortar sites in both Covent Garden and Tulsa Hill so in most areas in London these days chair we're balancing rights of residents along with rights of businesses and the two have to hopefully coexist peacefully so yeah just to reiterate chair it's not that we want to discount what's in the representation there's clearly concerns and we want to address that I'm hoping the fact that the applicant has sought to engage and written to Mr Singh will give you some comfort but also in terms of the conditions chair we've offered various things particularly with relation to prevention of public nuisance one of those crucially is a direct contact number for the management team which is to be given to residents so if in the event there was a problem to give you the committee and also residents that confidence that they would have a direct line there are various other conditions chair within that 22 I won't go through them all because I don't have time and you've read the committee pack already but I would hope that when we're looking at the conditions that are proportionate in terms of the grant of this application that they would give you the comfort that they are proportionate enough for the type of operation that we're seeking chair thank you the floor is yours thank you my representations as well regarding the objection to the license can be found on page 151 and 157 they refer to issues concerning the prevention of crime public nuisance public safety and the protection of children from harm my second representation on the objection was around public safety concerns impact on residents underage access traffic and parking issues in addition I did receive a response from bad boy pizza unfortunately they failed to convince me that they would be adequately managing the issues that I've raised and unfortunately reading through their response to me it was more of a sales pitch about their pizzas rather than the actual operational side of their business I would like to just highlight some additional points here page 141 and 137 with both one is a picture of the premises and the other is the up a plan of the premises the frontage of the shop is I would say approximately from shop front to end of pavement is approximately about four and a half square meters and if there are going to be six people outside the premises smoking that's going to occupy quite a bit of that payment and also to bear in mind that next to the premises there's a controlled crossing with zigzag lines I'll come to a point which of concern a bit later but the gathering of people and loitering the nuisance will impede on regular possession traffic and I don't feel that the the applicant has addressed that issue or have the means to control the amount of people that will be outside of the premises the on the control as far as the controlled crossing as far as that's concerned obviously people using the footpath will need to use the crossing and access the area where the shop is located now if there are too many people that's going to impede their access to the crossing and and cause a hazard for people going about their normal uh business um on page one six four um nicola cadzo um and the reference to the limiting of six people um after a certain time uh my general concerns about people smoking outside the premises they've not actually defined people smoking and people vaping which are two different things and things that people would do after a meal or before a meal or during a meal um so how do we define if they're out there smoking a cigarette or if they're out there define have smoking a vape um it it doesn't actually define um the activity that people would do um during after uh or whilst having a meal there um other concerns are about uh delivery and parking again as i said the controlled crossing has zigzag lines you have one minute remaining sorry oh sorry sorry yeah oh right okay um yeah the the parking outside controls crossing zigzag lines there is controlled uh parking times but the zigzag lines prevent people parking on there customers if they park out on the zigzag lines after the controlled time it's going to impede visual access to people trying to cross um i think i think that's my minute up is it yeah thank you chair thank you very much you're most impressive we now come to questions colleagues and councillor um thank you mr sing for that so it's really helpful um i suppose my question around your objection is it's i mean you could insert any organization any property like this isn't necessarily going to be a bar or a club so i'm just trying to understand um if there is particular issues with this establishment you think it's going to do this so but it says the traffic and parking issues it could be a bar that was opening up there for example and it would be the same so i'm just trying to understand what the particular focus on this application and the concerns around it application uh mainly in in respect of the nuisance uh noise litter um the premises flanked by uh residential um flats uh and people standing outside the premises talking smoking and just socializing uh they will generate noise which will affect the uh people living in the residential areas um also my premises there has been subject to vandalization uh by uh people that have uh some lower glass petitions and replace them with steel um but the general gathering of people and the nuisance that will cause from a noise that is either side uh will no doubt you know feel that gathering of people will be blocking their their frontages as well just one follow up thank you just sorry turn your office off so that makes complete sense and i appreciate given that you're right in your locality but i suppose if it wasn't bad for a piece of it wasn't this establishment it'd be another establishment so i'm just trying to understand it's it's relatively generic and i'm just trying to understand it's it's any insert any organization any restaurant or anybody wants to move here and do this you're going to have these issues have the mitigations and the safeguards that they relate to you in the letter but also their conditions not satisfy you still no because i don't believe that they have the potential to control the noise nuisance as they've written to me and this is why i made the second objection to the council ordinarily if it was another business that wasn't serving food or didn't have an alcohol license etc i have no objection to that generates business for the area but there are substantial amount of outlets within Bethlehem Green Road selling alcohol Councillor Ahmed do you have any questions yes thank you chair this will be to the object thank you for the explanation and the proof that you have said apart from that vandalism you've mentioned do you have any other incident that you can record or let us know disturbance or such as what you're thinking will happen it has as i as i've mentioned previously about the control parking times along Bethlehem Green Road there is uh there are zigzags outside but obviously if they're not going to be policed properly as far as the parking is concerned out of controlled hours allowing people to park on there and impede the access visual access to the crossing and i think my really mr singham my my problem is slightly this is license because were we mindful of refusing the alcohol license they can still carry on selling their pizzas within the framework hours um how do you feel about that um the the the the the panel this evening this afternoon we are considering an alcohol license and the premises exist and even were the panel mindful of refusing the alcohol license they will carry on with the pizza business it's because it's quite separate from the alcohol license the in my opinion chair the the the addition of alcohol uh will draw um i feel people that uh will it will indulge in that sort of activity and there is an antisocial element of uh behavior when consumption of alcohol is involved how do you feel about that i'm because you you you've heard that and i that i think is the crux of the matter because it is either as i said it's an alcohol license were we mindful of whatever decision we make you will carry on um you will be able to carry on doing bad boy pizzas i think people as crusty old goats even if they like the particular offer that particular offer there we are thank you chair um the alcohol is i don't want to say ancillary as in it it will be well it will be everybody seated who's who's having a table meal consuming alcohol and the conditions that we've put forward so number one the sale of alcohol alcohol for consumption on the premises shall only be to a person seated at a table um and taking a table meal and for consumption by such a person ancillary to their meal um number two personal license holder on duty at all times alcohol is being sold and any off sales chair will be in sealed containers only and shall not be consumed on the premises and again i don't want to discount what mr singh has said you've got concerns and the applicant wants to work with you that that's a given and i'm hoping the correspondence shows that as well and this is not a premises that's operated in other areas and caused issues chair there's been no problems with noise there's been no problems with crime disorder there's been no problems with litter and they have a waste contract with a reputable contractor to make sure that waste is taken away and in terms of the overall premises it's relatively small and there'll be a flow of people throughout the day um we have applied for slightly later hours on weekends um but again this is not high velocity drinking it's that alcohol is very much an ancillary part and that's conditioned um chair to to sort of reassure everybody of that um i take mr singh's point about the crossing and and the potential blocking of of the um visuals of the crossing but again the the limit of six people outside with a four meter pavement chair and i don't think should cause any issues and if it did i would expect via direct contact number that the applicant would be contacted and that's something that we could resolve but i just don't envisage chair knowing the operators as i do and the other sites that they've got and just the style of operation that it would cause a problem um and just again to give some reassurance both to mr singh and to the committee it's a limited range of of beer and wine again that will be ancillary to pizzas pizza is the passion here not not the beer or the wine conditional um condition to say that people can't take alcohol outside and i hear mr singh so people want to nip outside for a ciggy that's one thing but they would you accept a condition that were they able to nip outside for their ciggy they can't take a drink with them um the condition chair that we've agreed with environmental health confirms no glassware outside okay i think that's pretty good thank you mr singh i think we we as an authority have have a real interest in our residents and i think it's very impressive you've come to see us today but it's to dem it is to demonstrate this issue you've heard when we questioned about the alcohol and i think the issue that you have raised very much is could there be anti-social behavior relating from the consumption of alcohol and it would appear that there is limited seating it is just wine it is just basically wine and beer limited to the drink they can it is only served when people are sitting at table drinks and we have a confirmed condition of they cannot stand outside with their glasses so as i say they can't they can't pop out for a ciggy and take the drink with them how do you feel about that though that level of condition being put put into this application um yeah thank you chair uh yeah i to make a point in in in respect of that consumption of alcohol on the premises uh there's no control over the how much is consumed on the premises um alcohol of any uh type will have an effect on a person um if consumed in large quantities whether they take it outside or not um that person will still be intoxicated um and just to raise a point when i i spoke about the frontage of the shop um it was approximately about two meters 2.4 meters by uh 1.8 meters so it's the front is not four meters long the area to the front is four meters from square from shop frontage to pavement edge yeah um thank you i have listed thank you i've i've just now i mean the problem is alcohol is available and to be fair and there are controls of people theoretically dry and driving whether it whether cars scooters and lord knows what under the influence and if people are drunk outside they can be they can be apprehended for being drunk and disorderly my my my my real question is is this issue i mean i i is there any evidence that bad boy pizza has actually been responsible for any crime disorder uh in the immediate area bearing in mind there are quite a lot of premises in that vicinity i'm to be perfectly honest with you chet i've not heard of bad boy pizza um they they're they prior to their their application they're new to the area i'm not a pizza person myself uh unfortunately but um the the premises they are applying for the license so they're they're not operational at the moment um but i just wanted to raise those objections in respect of the noise uh nuisance uh litter nuisance etc thank you very much mr singh um i think that i think we've covered all the ground no more questions from michael oh councillor farooq thank you chair this is to the applicant um what is the capacity of your restaurant for in the term of sitting and also do you have any other branches um in london or anywhere else thank you councillor ahmed and the covers will be approximately 30 and so very small premises and yes there's a premises at covent garden and there's also a premises at tulsk hill um and the applicant has operated various pop-ups other venues but the um the covent garden one and the tulsk hill are their premises and no issues with those good relationships with the authorities good relationships with residents etc thank you thank you chen just finally if we were to accept your application would you consider um about anything that it would help or in the terms of from the objective uh uh very much concerned about the uh customers the number of customers will be smoking outside thank you councillor ahmed the um the condition that we've agreed with environmental health is persons permitted to temporary leave and then re-enter the premises for example to smoke shall not be permitted to take drinks or glass containers with them and shall be limited to six persons after 9 pm and hopefully that gives you some comfort that as we're getting into sort of quieter hours that the numbers will be limited outside i think with 30 covers inside anyway it's not likely that we're going to get lots and lots of people that gather outside but that condition has been agreed and will be present just to make sure that there's no more than six um after 9 pm the layout of the premises as well and and the size of the premises means it's very easy for staff to be able to keep an eye on on the customers that are standing outside and to monitor that quite easily and hopefully as well the fact that no glassware can go outside in terms of open containers um again gives mr sing and the committee some comfort that people won't go outside stand chat linger and they'll want to get back inside to their pieces and their drinks hopefully thank you thank you very much thank you chair we now move we now move to the concluding we now move to the concluding speeches and um mr singh's got a minute and then um the applicant will have a minute so mr singh the floor is yours for another minute look don't worry about being shut up we'll let you know when you've reached the conclude the end of the video uh yeah thank you chair i can only refer to the points that i've made previously in my submission uh which i've already referred to uh and just add that uh in essence i'm not entirely convinced that they the applicant has the means or has demonstrated to me that they have the ability to control uh the noise and uh congestion outside the premises they also have on that frontage a door leading up to uh residential premises above the shop um which no doubt if they have uh patrons outside the shop walking up and down will obviously impede the residents going upstairs above the premises so uh my as a coming back to my primary concerns it is about the noise nuisance um the congestion that it will cause um the litter nuisance etc uh people have a tendency to throw their cigarette butts on the floor etc there may be receptacles uh located by the applicant but invariably thank you mr singh applicant thank you chair um i won't go over everything that i uh covered in my previous submissions uh just to touch on the points that have been raised by mr singh and the the questions from the committee and you've got enough an applicant here that's operated other bricks and mortar premises and i think the best evidence that we can give to you chair have been able to operate responsibly is that they've done this in other locations and covent garden and tulls hill you've got that constant balance of applicant operating a bricks and mortar premises whilst nearby to residence and also the relationship there that they have with the responsible authorities shows that they can operate responsibly and the other point i would make chair is just to come back to the guidance point i made earlier on we haven't got any responsible authorities here and i would expect that if they thought that this would be a problem and that they would have made objections or maintained objections and they would be sitting in this room today and so i'd suggest to you chair that that the hours are reasonable that we've asked for um i'm hoping i've given you some comfort in terms of the concept and the fact that this is not a high velocity vertical drinking premises it is people that have got a passion for pizza that want to open a venue the focus will be very much pizza and the alcohol will be ancillary is conditioned as such and there's 22 conditions on their chair which for a 30 cover um pizza restaurant again i would hope would give you infinite amount of comfort mr singh we don't want to discount your concerns at all that's that's not the intention there's a condition on there about a direct contact number for management and they've written to you they will always speak to you and at the end of the day chair if if we don't uh do this properly we'll end up before you again in some form which is not what we want times are tough for hospitality at the moment you know it's a big investment to open a new premises and they've done it responsibly in other places there's no evidence to suggest that they won't do that here thank you thank you for your contributions um the as as you heard as you were all sitting here we would deliberate deliberate in confidence you will be given the result of our deliberations within five working days which will show you whether whatever decision we have made and whether the decision was unanimous of all members or by majority um we will adjourn the decision we made by the through my myself and my two colleagues but we will be advised by mr wong miss yes we'll be there for notes may i finally say thank you very much to both miss taylor and mr singh for coming along today and thank you for your very well thought out presentations i now move to item four on the agenda is and ask miss yasmin do we have any extensions that we have to formally approve yes chair i'd like the subcommittee to please approve um the extension for quite a few applications so here we go um firstly cw wood wharf uh limited uh unit two and three um rivington walk london e2 um ara one new drum street or gate east london e1 poply union london e14 6tl 14 uh limited 10 white ship for high street um shocky harry 253 bethnal green road london e2 building 5 unit 6 45 charter street building 7 unit 10 unit 9 unit 2 and 2 harvard square london e14 9uh house of music 20 commercial street london e16 lp koi ramen bar unit 2 new drummond street london e1780 and victoria wharf studio 10 style street london e32nt chain members can i please ask you to extend these to april 2025 is that agreed that's agreed thank you thank you very much meeting is closed you