Transcript

Right, everybody, we're live, and I apologise, it's one minute past two rather than one minute doo-doo. Good afternoon, welcome to this meeting of the Licensing Subcommittee of the London Borough of Tower Hamlets. My name is Peter Golds, I'm a councillor here, and I chair the Licensing Committee, and for the purposes of this afternoon, I'm chairing this subcommittee meeting. The meeting will be held with all of us in person, but some participants may watch online, and I would remind everybody that it is shown online, although the cameras do not pick up the public gallery. If they do pick up the public gallery, it's just an expanse of red, so it won't so much matter. May I ask people to only speak at my direction, we try and conduct our meetings as, if you don't catch my eye, I'll certainly catch Miss Yasmin's eye, and I will make a note. And if anybody is speaking, may I remind them to, when you address the meeting, switch on the thing, the little button that shows the red light, and then when you've concluded, switch it off, because if you don't, it won't appear on the TV. All that will happen, the TV camera will catch you and you will look like the proverbial goldfish, because it won't pick your sound up. So, for example, I'm switched on now. Possibly not be heard. As I've introduced myself, may I now invite everybody along the top table to introduce themselves, starting at Mr Iver sitting over there. Thank you, Chair. I'm Cathy Driver. I'm one of the licensing officers in the licensing team, and I'm presenting to you today. Councillor Moustakam, Bethnal Green West. Thank you very much. At the conclusion of the hearing, I will formula the notes are available, ultimately, for public inspection. We formally have on the agenda apologies for absence, but, of course, there are no apologies for absence, because the subcommittee consists of three members, and all three of us are here. I must formally ask, do any members have a declaration of disclosable pecuniary interests? I have none. Colleagues? None. Thank you. None. Ms Yasmin, nobody has a declaration of pecuniary interests. The rules of procedure are included on pages 9 to 18 on the written agenda. I believe we can now move to the applications. I'm going to invite us to reverse the order, because Item 3.1 will not need to be considered absolutely as fully as Item 3.2 represented with us. The application, we now move to an application for a new premises licence for 9 E3 5AA, which is included on pages, and I haven't, yep, I've got them here, pages 123 to 204 on our agenda. As I always say, if anybody is speaking, could they refer to what page they're speaking to, so members are not seen, sort of, having to spend their time flicking through the different pages? May I now invite Ms Yasmin to formally give notice of who is in attendance? Thank you, Chair. For this application, we have the applicant present, Mr David Miller, and we also have one of the objectors present, Mr John Hicks. After the application has been presented, the applicant will be invited to speak and will be given a total of five minutes to make their representation. The objectors will also be given five minutes to make their representation. I'll let each speaker know when you have one minute remaining. Please note that the subcommittee have read the agenda pack in advance. Thank you, Chair. ...sales of alcohol, Monday to Saturday, 8 till 11, and we've agreement with the police, amended hours on Sunday from 8 till 10.30pm. The opening being the same hours, however, Sunday needs terms in terms of the opening hours on the Sunday. The premises already does have an alcohol licence for members' information, which was granted during the, I mean, Appendix 5. I do have a copy of the licence, but there are no conditions, actually, on the licence. It was purely a grandfather, so there are no conditions on this one in terms of that than the old grandfather. The site plan is at page 120, with the maps at 152. Photos, obviously, of our notice checks and the premises for a member's information are at 154 and 155. Those with licences in the vicinity is 157, which also deceived, and they're in Appendices 6 to 10. Point 7 of the report on page 126 details the conditions that have been offered, agreements with noise and licencing, Appendices 12 and 13. In terms of any history, we have no records of any complaints over the history of the licence being. Thank you, Mr. Iver. There is one point, and there does seem to be on the hour. No, I think we'll come to that later on, because it's another matter. I mean, it's as it is. We've got it. Mr. Esmond, we have no further questions. Thank you very much. I'd now like to invite Mr. Miller, the applicant, to address us for five minutes. Okay, yes, so my intention is to open this property still as a shop, serving drinks, basic food things, foodstuffs, serving coffee, baked goods. And then further to that, we will have a small seating area in the back. We intend to serve food and drinks there in the evening. Like, basically, pasta dishes, side dishes, small plates, very simple. And that'll be, as a business as a whole, we'll be focused on catering to local people primarily. So, we wouldn't, we're not, our reputation will be everything in the local community, and we wouldn't risk that in any way. Personally, I live, like, 20 metres away on Alloway Road. I've lived there eight years. I really love the area. I understand it's a quiet residential area. I totally understand why people love living there, and I know lots of people live there for 20, 30 years. And, yes, I believe our plans are entirely in keeping with the area. My only wish is to create something that will, hopefully, that local residents will be happy to see, and will enhance the area in whatever way we can. In addition to that, the landlord of the property lives on the opposite corner. He also owns adjoining properties to the shop. I've had discussions with him about what we intend to do there. I've developed our plans with his support, and promised they will be beneficial to the area. I run an existing business in Tower Hamlets, bakery just five minutes up the road. It's, we've been there, like, seven years, almost seven years. We've got a good reputation in terms of local residents there, in terms of improving the area. People are, yes, well, I would say local residents are very happy to have us there. It is licensed for off-sales, and has been for about four years. I'm the DPS on that property as well, with zero problems, of course. In relation to some particular objections which outlaw an existing anti-social behaviour and crime issues in the vicinity around the shop, not around the shop, but local to the shop, I would suggest that a well-run, responsible business in that spot, which is well-lit, has comprehensive CCTV, would hopefully improve that issue, make anti-social behaviour and crime less likely there, and I have seen that directly in my other business. I'll make it a priority to, almost any problems that we, we, um, notice, to be, to be, um, very proactive in reporting anything like that and ensuring that our presence, um, improves the area in that respect. Um, yes, a couple of notes in regards to timing. Uh, I confirm that Sunday to half ten is totally fine. That was just a, uh, a mistake on the application, really. Um, also for on-sales, um, well, the existing licence on the shop on the property is 8 a.m. to 11 p.m., uh, Monday to Saturday, and those are the hours we have applied for, but in terms of serving customers within the restaurant part of the shop, um, it's, we have no intention of serving drinks after 10.30, we want to be closed by 11.00, um, so, yeah, 10.30, enough time to clear everyone out, and the shop would all be all shut up. A minute remaining. As soon as possible, after 11.00, really. Um, yeah, I hope that's all clear, but, yeah, any questions at all, about any aspects, yes, please don't hesitate. Thank you very much, Mr. Miller. We will come to questions after we've heard from Mr. Hicks. Um, Mr. Hicks, the floor is yours. You've seen how we proceed, and we'd like to now welcome you to the meeting and listen to your contribution. Well, good afternoon. It's a great pleasure to be here this afternoon. I, like the previous speaker, think that the area is a very pleasant area. I've lived there for 38 years. In that time, the premise we're talking about 9 Morgan Street has always been a corner shop. I didn't know it had only been an off-rise until 2005. There has never been a problem there. We're talking about an enclave in a residential area where we live close to each other as neighbours, and it is a quiet and pleasant area. I don't know whether you're aware, it's on a junction between the top of Aberraven Road and Morgan Street, and it is very pleasant. That's one reason I've been there for 38 years. I have no plans to move, and I hope I can see my days out there. I find my neighbours very pleasant, and it's become, over the years, far more of a community area than it was when I moved in in 1987, not least of all because at that time we had not so many families that lived there. Now there are families because it is a pleasant place to live. I wish to object to the licence on three points. The first is there's absolutely no point or any need to have another licence premises. Within the Bow Conservation Area, there are already three public houses, one of which is also on Morgan Street, the Morgan Arms. It's a large pub, it has a restaurant attached. Anybody who wants to go and eat and have alcohol with their meals can do it in one of those three pubs. Equally, 100 yards away at the Mile End Junction, there are numerous licence and non-licence premises. Of the licence premises, we've got a wonderful, it's marvellous, it's got a great variety. We have a pizza house, we have a Chinese restaurant, we have a steakhouse, there's another pub down there, there's an African restaurant. They all have one thing in common, they're all licenced. Prior to this meeting, I counted within a radius of 200 yards at least 10 licence properties. There is absolutely no reason at all for another one. The second reason I object to this is because the property, if you become licenced, it will fundamentally change the nature. I'm not talking about a large area, I'm talking about an enclave where people live cheap by gel. Nymorgan Street is the end of a terrace. It's a corner shop. For many years, it might still be above the shop, though it was a residential flat. We all live quietly and peacefully together. By bringing in a licensed restaurant, you fundamentally change that area. Because anything that happens there has an immediate effect on the surrounding areas. It can't help, have it, because it's right next door to it. It's not on the main road. It's in a quiet residential area. And for that reason, I think it would fundamentally change the nature, especially in the summer months. There is an issue at the moment in the summer months, because it's away from the main road, people who are passing by, and there are steps there, decide on occasion to decamp there and have an outside party for half an hour. Very often, they've got some alcoholic beverage in their hand. You have one minute remaining, Mr Hicks. Sorry? You have one minute remaining. On a number of occasions, I've had to go outside, and I've been met with abuse when I've asked people to move. That will happen more. It's inevitable. In the summer months, if you've got a small restaurant, because it is a very small restaurant, people are going to come outside. What you're doing by allowing this, you are changing the nature of the area, fundamentally. Finally, I would also say there is an issue of drug dealing. In the area, but specifically on this junction, the police know about it. Again, I've seen on a number of occasions, people are loitering, a car pulls up, a window goes down, money is exchanged and a small package is exchanged. I've told the police about it, they know about it, that's happened. Finally, there's also, on the mind of a lot of us who live there, in September 2022, there was a murder that occurred right outside the property. What happened there was a local party, where two people came outside. Excuse me, Mr Hicks, this isn't mentioned in your representation. It's not related directly to the application, I'm afraid. So I'm going to have to ask you to, if we can move on, if you've got anything else to say that directly relates to your representation. Sorry, what else have I said that's not relevant? I'm just talking about this, that one incident. I just simply said, if you've got anything else that is still relevant, then obviously please just move on to that. Right. Well, there is an issue of criminality. This will not. It will act as a magnet for people who consume alcohol. And as for closing at 10.30 on a Sunday evening, look, people have to go to work early. People have children. It's inevitable because of the closeness of everything there. If you've got people coming and going from a restaurant, it's fundamentally going to be to the detriment of the local area. And I urge you not to do it, because what you will do is change somewhere that's very pleasant to live into something else. So I urge you to vote against it. Thank you, Mr Hicks. We now move to questions, and members can direct questions to either or both. I'd like to begin by to Mr Miller. And the thing I've immediately noticed, I'm just turning over the pages, yes, looking at it, is that absolutely fundamentally, we have a view of what was once clearly a little corner shop once that would have been a traditional East End corner shop. And effectively, by this single application, it is turning from a corner shop. This was historically a corner shop. It moved to having on, I say, I've got Lord knows how long ago, it probably started selling out. 1960s, when it was no longer a requirement that you could either be an off-licence or something else, because, as Driver said, it has a grandfather license, which means whoever runs the premises now inherited that license to sell alcohol. But, as I say, you are, you have confirmed that it is fundamentally moving from a corner shop to a restaurant. Will you go effectively to a restaurant? Yes, if that's necessary. I believe that it can be run within the existing class, but I will consult on that for sure. Yes, we will get the relevant planning permission. Yes. Mr. Hicks has raised a number of issues, and indeed other residents have done those. Particularly relevant would be people congregating outside. Were we mindful of granting this congregating outside and certainly eating and drinking outside? Yes, certainly willing to accept that. We've got no belief or intention that people will be able to congregate outside. There's not space for it. Yes, and as is also, yeah, most of the seating is in the rear of the property, away from the windows. Obviously, yes, it is going to be small numbers and probably even smaller numbers at that time of night as well. But yes, any recommendations that we can add, I would be happy to accept in that regard. The drink you've got, not far away, you have the Morgan Arms, which is, to all intents and purposes, a substantial gastropub with a substantial restaurant, et cetera, et cetera. I keep coming back to the point, one has a corner shop here, which is now turning quite a considerable amount of your floor space. Am I correct? If you're going to sit 18 people because you say you'll have 18 covers, that requires... I think it's probably more likely to be 16, but yes, so basically it's half. Front half will be primarily a shop and the back half primarily seating. But yes, I think there'll be, yes, probably four sets of four tables. Yeah. Objections very carefully. I have no idea what my colleagues will ask because we can't discuss these matters beforehand. We have to come with our own individual open minds to approach you. Again, were we mindful of granting consent? Would you consider the atmosphere as opposed to people sitting down? Yes, we've already accepted that drinks will be served to seated customers only. Thank you. Thank you. That concludes my... ...to the pubs in and out already. Has that been a very big impact already that you think this small kind of... ...to be absolute disastrous? Two of you, obviously, perhaps you all know the actual location. Just think of it. If you're living at home quietly and then 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock, these people coming and going... I didn't realise you're talking about 16 people. That's not a small restaurant. In a very enclosed area. People are going to be coming to going after they've been drinking. You can't assure that there's not going to be any sound. It will fundamentally change the... Just think of it now. You know the area. You go in the evening it's quiet. People at peace at home. If you then have to think somebody's in bed because you start working in the city at 7 in the morning and they've got... They're woken up by people coming and going and laughing and so on. If you do and you go out for a drink it's inevitable. It will fundamentally change the area. And as for closing on a Sunday at 10.30, my goodness. I mean, this is when people in bed... People have children in bed and as I say fortunately we have more families in the area now. It's the last thing we need. It will have a great impact. There are other places within the stone throat. Numerous places. We don't need another. And goodness knows how are you going to fit? With it being a coffee shop and selling food how the hell are you going to get 18 people in there? I don't know how it's possible at the moment unless you fundamentally enlarge it. And I must also say people here who know the area directly in front of the shop there is an area it's right for putting tables there. In fact occasionally in summer people who sell flowers occasionally turn up and sell flowers there. No objection to that. They go away again. The pressure on the hot months if you've got a full restaurant is to have people outside on table. It might not happen now it might not happen next year but the pressure will be on the point because there is space there for tables to go on a pavement where people are passing by. Just think of yourself if you're living in a nice quiet area then all of a sudden you've got a restaurant there people coming and going it's not on the main road it's where fortunately because the way traffic is controlled there is not a lot of noise it's a very nice spot and it would radically alter that. It has to. I just wanted to add one bit. Even though the nearby pub like you said as well and we also know from the report there is a nearby pub also where you live in the same street. Yeah it's 100 yards down Morgan Street. It's already existing you can see the impact of going in and out. I never go to that part of the street that's why I've used the word enclave because I mean it's such a wonderful area the Bow Conservation Area that it has its own little corners where people live and where the Morgan Arms are every time I pass it I think thank goodness I don't live here because again it's on the corner of the street they have tables outside. If anybody's got a house by there you have to put up with having a pub close by and all that entailed. I don't want that and we don't need it. If people want it it's 100 yards down the road. And as for I didn't realise we're talking about a seating for 18 people in that small it's a corner shop. We're talking about a corner shop that's going to be a cafe that's going to sell bread and goodness knows what else like it does at the moment fine. And then you've got to find where's the kitchen going to go. I think if you give permission you have to say there will be a radical change in the nature of that corner and it will be to the detriment of the people who live there because it is a quiet pleasant place that I have the privilege of living there for 38 years and if I left another 38 years I'd be glad to stay there. Yeah, very quick question. Thank you for coming forward. I just want to understand how and why Morgan Arms impact is not affecting you is that because of the location and how geographically that's one thing and the other thing is how many families around down cliff or the applicant address live. You're obviously not familiar with the layout there. The Morgan Arms, other people might be aware of it, Morgan Street must be about 200 yards. It goes from the main road, it crosses over to Deegar Square and ends in Coburn Road. If I lived near the Morgan Arms, I would never have gone to live there because I don't want to live next to a pub and any problems that can cause, but the pub's been there since I think it's 1899. I'm sure if you live by the Morgan Arm, it does impact on you, but people have made that decision. The people who live at the top of Abel Avon Road and that part of Morgan Street, we've never had that. We've never had that environment. I'm sure it has a dramatic impact. It has to, they have tables outside. It has that environment. We don't have that for the property we're currently talking about. I mean, if you're asking me, does it impact you if you live next to a public house or not? Yes, it fundamentally does. It's just at the moment, I don't live near a public house and all the people around me don't live near it and we don't want to live near one. And if you think, just think, if you've got a young family and you're thinking of moving in the area and you're going to know you're going to be living next to what is basically a pub with a restaurant, you might think twice about going there. Plus the fact, if you start work at seven in the morning, you might also think about whether you want to live there or not. At the moment, that's not an option. What you get is a pleasant, quiet, peaceful, restful area. Mr. Melnick. I just wanted to check, I think I heard correctly, Mr. Miller. Did you say on the existing licence, you're the DPS? No. Right, I misheard that. Thanks for that. The only other thing I wanted to check, obviously, if the committee were minded to grant, at the moment, the way consumption of alcohol isn't a licensable activity, as you'll appreciate, most licenced venues tend to have a period of drinking up times at the moment. What you've actually got is 11 o'clock close and 11 o'clock cessation of licensable activity. Can I assume, given what you said earlier on, that in effect, you're quite content to have licensable activity ceasing at 22 30 every day of the week, which would then, with 11 o'clock closing to the public, so that's effectively their drinking up time for people to move on. Is that what you're offering up? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. In addition to that, I'd just like to explain it. It's going to be a small restaurant, so probably can I stop there at the moment only asking questions, you can just simply respond to that, what's going on. It may be that other members have got further questions arising else. Sorry to keep going about these things, Mr Miller. I listen carefully to Mr Hicks. There is very much this issue of congregating outside, and what was once a corner shop is very different to the Morgan Arms, which was built in the 19th century as a traditional pub, and it's very much designed as a pub. You're very much a corner stock. I know you go along, you've got a bit on Aber Avon Road, but you're exactly on the intersection, the entrance is on the intersection of Aber Avon and Morgan, and then you go a bit down Morgan, so you're on both streets. What does concern me is this possibility of putting tables outside. Would you accept a condition to no tables? If we were mine. Yes, if you request, that is not a problem. We didn't have any intention of putting tables outside, certainly not in the evening, no. Mr. Hicks, I've been quite emphatic about that. I've described the site. I can't anticipate the decision of the committee. You have heard that Mr. Miller would accept a condition of no tables outside. How do you feel about that? Well, I still would oppose it. I think that is an issue, but it is not the owner issue. I'm just asking about the tables. No, it wouldn't because it would act to the magnet for people who were okay. I think that is slightly more difficult to look at because we can't absolutely prove that. We could prove there are some so I can't understand that. The point I think that does concern people and I've flicked through again is the possibility of outside so we'll be mindful. Mr. Miller has said no table. I come back to that. I think that. Okay, thank you. Can we now move to closing statements? Both of you have one minute and we start with Mr. Hicks. So you've now got a minute to talk to us and them. I urge you again please not to apply the point of having basically a pub opening up very very close to you and all the possible issues that would rise not only people congregating outside but people coming and going being open until 10.30 at night people have to go to work early and they have to look after their children and that has never been a problem and it could become a problem. And so I think on that basis plus the fact that we're surrounded by such establishment there is no need for it given the numerous types of restaurants licensed restaurants within a short walking distance. I think my main objection is the amount of it's going to cause in the immediate enclave because it will fundamentally change everything. It will stop being a corner shop which has never been an issue and it will become something completely different. You will give permission for a completely new establishment which could throw up all sorts of new problems. Problems that have never been there and will be to the detriment of the people who live in the immediate area. Thank you Mr. Hicks. I now move to Mr. Miller. Thank you. Yes, a couple of points I would like to make is regarding people gathering outside. I don't believe there will be any reason for people to gather outside. I'm assuming we are talking about on exiting the premises. people finish their meal. They're not going to have had loads to drink. They're going to want to get home. There's nothing else. No reason for them to stay around the exit. And we will of course, should that for any reason happen, we'd move them on. That's not a problem I have doing that. And we're talking probably like 10, 15 people maximum exiting at the later times at night. And obviously they're going to walk along the streets. I'm sure they'll be respectful, but there are streets in London. It's a quiet place, but there's still a lot of people walking along the streets late at night. And that doesn't cause a problem. They're all very respectful. So yes, I'd just like to wrap up by saying this is a shop I frequented a lot over the time I've stayed locally and it's, I want to really, I'm passionate about making it work as a business and retaining as a business and also obviously my passions are in food and drink, so that's what I want to bring to it. And I believe it needs probably multiple income streams to make it work in that position. I'm not sure if this is of any relevance, but it was the previous owner, the previous occupant, sorry, had to move on as a result of it, him not quite making enough money out of it as an off-licence only. It's obviously something to take time to build up, but yeah, I'm passionate about retaining it as a good, local, responsible business that serves the local community and hope we won't have any negative impact. I can't see how we would. Yes, we just want to enhance the area really. It's an area I love living in, just as Mr. Hicks does. And yes, we want to be to have a really good reputation in the community. I've assured all the objectors and been in contact with a few other local associations and assured everyone that will be in continuous dialogue, happy to be in continuous dialogue about any problems whatsoever should they arise. That's all, thank you very much. Thank you very much, Mr. Miller. Thank you both of you for your contributions. The subcommittee will deliberate this afternoon in a private session which will take place after this part of the meeting concludes. Ms. Yasmin from Democratic Services will write you within five working days to tell you of the decision of the committee and whether our decision was a unanimous or majority vote. And it will then be your contributions. We now move to item 3.1 on the agenda which is the application for new premises licence for the Shoreditch and Sol 116 Cheshire Street East 26EJ. Ms. Yasmin. Chair, as you know, this application, if you'd like to ask Cathy Driver to quickly give you an introduction to the report. Driver, would you like to do the report please? Yeah, the application was for the sale of alcohol and films with alcohol on and off sales Monday to Saturday 11 to 11 and Sunday 12 to 11. The opening times were 24-7. There were three representations made by three local residents. one of the conditions offered by the applicant was that the alcohol must be consumed within 30 minutes of the licensable activity times, i.e. 11 o'clock. The concern for residents at the time in terms of their rejection in the outstanding matters was an issue of the films being played 24-7. We understand there was a discrepancy. The planning permission allowed 24-7 but the applied hours in terms of the licence finishes at 11. The solicitors was in dialogue with the residents and to clarify that the films will only be played to 11 o'clock. So essentially it is there at 11.30 in terms of the alcohol but 11 o'clock in terms of the films. So the residents on receiving that have since withdrawn their the last one obviously being within 24 hours of this hearing. There are conditions at point 7 on page 24, page 48-49 of the conditions that have been agreed and point 8 the noise conditions 1 to 2 have also been agreed. Thank you very much. Mr Melnick. Yes, Chair. Essentially what's meant to happen is if to dispense with the hearing all representations need to have fallen away at least 24 hours beforehand. The regulations provide that they can be withdrawn at the hearing but that needs to be done orally which obviously requires the presence of people. So strictly speaking that is why this matter remains listed and technically needs a decision by the licensing committee. However the fact remains that had the last representation been withdrawn more than 24 hours earlier this would have been dealt with by officers under their delegated powers as any other licence application would. I would obviously advise you to take that into account when making your decision on the application. As far as I can see and I've looked at the three applicants received an extensive item of correspondence from the lawyers the three objectors from the lawyers representing the applicants and it does appear they may have misunderstood what the premises were all about which may be and are sitting here this afternoon am I correct? That's as I understand it it was effectively Mr McCann the solicitor for the applicant has clarified how the business will operate and I think the biggest concern for residents was the risk that effectively because it was open 24-7 that those activities will go on 24-7 that's been clarified and that's what I understand. No chair. There appear to be no questions. The procedure will be therefore that a decision we will deliver. Send me any extensions. No chair. Therefore declare this part of the meeting closed and we will now adjourn to consider.