Transcript

Good morning, everybody. Welcome to the meeting of the cabinet being held on 23 April 2024. The meeting has been webcast with the exception of any business that the cabinet resolves to exclude the press and public because of the likely disclosure of exempt information as defined by the local government act of 1972. This meeting has been held as a hybrid meeting with cabinet members attending in person at the council chain but county hall or remotely via video conference. For transparency purposes I will ask them honestly to identify which cabinet members in attendance and whether they are attending in person or remotely. Thank you, Chair. Attending as cabinet members in the chamber are the leader, Councillor Jason McClellan, Deputy Leader, Councillor Joel German and cabinet members, Councillors Gwyneth Ellis, Bruce Thomas, Emery Swin, Barry Miller, Ellen Heaton and Julie Matthews. Also attending as cabinet member remotely is Councillor Winmill and James. We also have in the council chamber non-cabinet members of council via to observe the meeting and they are Councillors Karen Edwards, Andrea Tomlin, Pauline Edwards, Bobbie Fealy, Dalleth Jones, Mack Young, Hillhill Roberts and Van Paddy and online we have Councillors John Harland, Terry Mendes, Brian Jones, Joan Butterfield, Chris Evans. I'm sorry there are some late attendees so we've also got Councillor Alan James and Councillor James May. Okay, thanks, Gary. Thanks for joining. So those attending remotely are currently asked to mute their microphones unless they are called upon to speak. Cabinet members are also asked to have their videos switched on throughout the meeting unless I specifically requested to turn your video off to improve the quality audio link when you are speaking. You will be expected to restart your video once you have finished speaking. Please also refrain from using the chat facility as messages sent to all are visible on the webcast. Those present in the chamber are asked to make sure they speak directly to the microphone to improve the quality of the sound for those attending remotely. To aid transparency all of the meetings business today must be conducted through the chair. I'll pass over to Gary for declaration of interest. If I could just apologise first, Leader. I said Councillor James May is actually Councillor James Elson now the Councillor, so I do apologise. I will do this part in Welsh. Members will be aware of the requirement in the Council's Code of Conduct to declare any personal and prejudicial interest in respect of any business to be considered at today's meeting. Such interest should be declared now or as soon as the Council affected becomes aware that they have a personal or a judicial interest in today's business. All members declaring an interest required to stay clean with the interest aids and to advise whether it is a personal interest or a personal and prejudicial interest as defined in the Code of Conduct. Any member declaring a prejudicial interest is required to leave the meeting for the duration of the business and can take no matter the proceedings. Members with a personal interest only may take that in the debate and any votes. If a personal or a judicial interest is declared today that has not been previously disclosed and recorded, the Council are concerned will be required to complete and sign a declaration of interest form which is either available for the support staff here today or online. I am going to declare a prejudicial interest in the agenda item concerning the archives. So that's the agenda item five. I've done this before and my advice is that my wife is a flinch officer. This is a project that she's worked quite heavily in and I'm advised as a close personal associate I should declare an interest. It's prejudicial and I'll be leaving for that and the judicialist deputy will take the chair. Any other declarations of interest in relation to the agenda? Thank you. I would like to declare an interest, a personal interest in item six. The sustainable communities for learning. This is because I live very close to Denby high school and that school is mentioned in the documentation and I also use on a daily basis the cycle path which cost a quarter of a million pounds three years ago and I use that path on a daily basis and it will be adversely impacted if a school last but different is located on the favourite site. Thank you Chair. Pauline. Yeah, okay. All duly noted, thank you. We'll move on to the minutes of the meeting on the 90-year-old. Those two those are accuracy. So page pages five as they are in the electronic track six, seven, eight, nine, ten. So the minutes, any issues arise of accuracy? No. So the same pages and the issues arising matters arising from the minutes of last cabinet. No, can I have a proposal, a true and accurate reflection, so proposed by Councillor E! Thomas, seconded by Julie Matthews. Okay, so we will now go on to the North East Wales archive project and for the reasons outlined a couple of minutes ago, I've declared an interest so I'll be leaving the room and hand it over to Gellist. Thank you, Chair, and good morning everyone. So I think I is a report on the North East Wales archive project. We have Councillor MRS-Winn as the lead member and I can see that Liz Grieves joined us as well. MRS, will you be introducing this item? Lovely, okay, deal. Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning all. As I present this proposal today, I accept that it will raise a few eyebrows with some members that I am asking for support to potentially borrow around £2 million for a new archive facility in this current financial climate. However, I would urge members to listen carefully to the logic of the argument on this because it actually makes financial sense to support this proposal. We know that we have some very serious problems with our current archive facility in written jail. The storage space is full and the system is required to maintain air quality and protect the materials at the end of their life and they are very old now. So the current arrangements are not sustainable and we need to find a long-term solution that is a fact. Archive materials are precious and fragile and need to be stored in specific conditions. They also have great historical and cultural value and we have a statutory duty to protect them. Therefore, if we accept that the protection of these materials is something that we need to do constantly, then it follows that we need to invest in a facility that enables us to do so. The Council has spent a number of years looking at the various options to provide the alternative long-term solution that is needed for the archives. That work concluded the best and most cost-effective option was to work in collaboration with Flincher County Council on a new net cabin zero building on the Theta-Cluid campus involved. This is not a new proposal in November 2020 and again in October 2023 cabinet authorized the submission of the joint spending bid with Flincher County Council to the National Lottery Heritage Fund Wales. That application was requesting a capital grant of £7.4 million to help build the new joint archive facility in mould. Dembyshire and Flincher's cabinets all supported the bid to joint application. On the understanding that Dembyshire County Council would have to provide much funding of around £2 million and Flincher County Council much funding of just over £3 million. We have recently been informed that the grant's application was successful and that the National Lottery have offered funding of £7,371,397 towards the cost of the new joint archive facility. However, I wish to emphasize that should the current cabinet agree to accept and confirm the offer as described, there will still be an archive presence on the site of the old jail in Britain. Therefore, I come to cabinet today to seek support for accepting this funding offer from the National Lottery. Our much-funding sum of just over £2 million would be funded by a potential borrowing. You may ask, why would we want to commit to a potential borrowing to fund a project like this in the current financial climate? The answer is simple. This grant offer provides an opportunity to provide a brand-new fit-for-boopers archive facility for Dembyshire County Council, which will last for the next 50 years. It therefore provides a long-term solution that is currently needed for the archives. It is important to illustrate that all the options available to us will cost money. Again, that is a simple fact. There isn't a no-cost option. There isn't even a low-cost option. Several are the options, including refurbishing parts of an existing Dembyshire County Council building to house the archives, will actually cost us more than the preferred option. The do-least option, which is to continue investing in riff and jail, which was never designed to house archive materials and will never be a perfect solution, is very likely to cost Dembyshire County Council more than the preferred option if you consider the cost of the same 50-year time scale. As in addition, the new joint archive facility moment will enable us to provide a more effective and efficient archive service than we are currently able to provide when we will have to manage two archive facilities across Dembyshire and Flinshire. Therefore, the proposal before you is not only the most cost-effective option available to us, but it also provides the best outcomes for our archive materials and our customers and our residents. I will now hand over to the head of service Liz Crave and officers from the project team who will be able to talk about the proposal more detail Thank you very much. Borodal Palb, Liz Crave, head of the housing community service and on the screen is Craig Berry, who is the joint archive services manager here to answer any questions. Just take you through the report quickly following Emirates following our lead member's introduction. This has been a project a long time in the making. I think that it has passed off as a project. Business case being developed in 2017 and all the way through the development of this proposal, officers and members have worked hard to make sure that the options that have been put forward to cabinet are genuine options and fully explored. As Emirates has explained, the current site for our archives in Rith and Jealous is not sustainable and an alternative solution has to be found for storage of our precious materials. With the option that is being put forward today, you will see that the emphasis is on safe storage of our archives, but also efficient service delivery so that we can maximise public access to our archives, both in the sites, in mould and in Rith and also online and through various community initiatives and of course in all our libraries across the county. You will see in Appendix 2 a summary of the options that we looked at and also for people who are relatively new to the project, in Appendix 3 you will see some detail of the model of service delivery that we are hoping to be able to deliver with this project. As has been described, a do nothing option isn't available to us and the option that is being put forward has the benefit of bringing in £7 million from the National Heritage Lottery Fund, which has been offered to us just before Easter. We are currently working on the collaboration agreement with Flintshire and a heads of terms for the lease of the New York Life Centre. Those are both based on a 50 year arrangement. These agreements have been progressed by officers in Flintshire and Denvershire at the moment and progress is going well and today I am asking if cabinet would accept a delegated responsibility to the Chief Executive and the Lead Member to sign those documents when they are ready. The reason for that is that the clock is ticking now so we have a period of time to be able to accept the offer from the National Heritage Lottery Fund. These agreements need to be in place in order for us to do that. Flintshire Cabinet are meeting tomorrow to consider the same proposal and you will see in Appendix 4 the timescales that we have for the delivery of this project. The timescales are, I think, sensible but we do need to keep things moving so that is why we are asking for the approval for the to accept the grant offer. Subject of Linger Kels will do the same. We are seeking that cabinet confirms the commitment of £2m, £2m. The maximum revenue cost is expected to be £136,000 but you will see from Appendix 4 that the different stages of the project will mean that that will be the maximum revenue that we have over the 25 year period and we are seeking a delegated authority to sign the agreements. Thank you. Happy to take any questions. We will turn to Cabinet first. Do we have any questions from Cabinet members? Councillor Gwyneth Alice. Thank you Deputy Leader. When this was first discussed in 2019-2020, I think that the cost was around 16 or 17 million and has now come down to just under £13m, so I would like an expectation why that cost has come down. Also, when it was discussed in 2020, it was said at that time that there wasn't a plan B, so if this didn't happen that there wasn't a plan B, but there was a need to devise a plan B just in case that this was four years ago. So why isn't there a plan B to date? Thank you. I might have to come to Craig who has been involved in the project longer than I have, but the original proposal was a much bigger building in mould, which was much more expensive, that a bid failed with external funding, but we were invited to revisit the project to see if it was possible to bring it forward at a reduced cost. Was the answer to that? With regard to the plan B, again, I'm not quite sure what was discussed last time round. I think probably what I would say is that we took the opportunity when we were revisiting the project to look to double check to see if there were any options that were more cost effective for us in Denvershire, and that's what we've outlined in the appendix too. I think the plan that we have is the one that we've put our work into, but we have invited officers with technical experience to be able to help us properly look at the alternatives, and that's taken all the time we've had since we last discussed it at Covenants. Dioffless. Councillor Mothius, do you want to come in? Dioffless. Thank you, Liz. Thank you, Emma, for a very comprehensive outline and very comprehensive report. It also feels a little bit deflated really, but we've managed to secure £7 million of funding for what will be a facility that is badly needed. We've got a statutory obligation that we've got to provide a more suitable facility. As you've outlined in the report, there is no do-nothing option, and the way forward, as Emma and Liz have explained, is that this is the best way that we can utilise very, I suppose, we have got limited funds, and I suppose it's taking the shine off what should be something that we should be celebrating really. Congratulations to the team, Liz, for being able to secure that. I did have a question about the collaboration agreement, but you've seemed to have answered that. I'm happy with the delegated decision, as I assume it will be shared with all members so that we can see the details of that, and I assume it will be done pretty quickly from what's in the report. Thank you, Liz. Yes, just to confirm, we will follow the process for the delegated decision. Thank you. Diok Julee, Diok Jles, are there any other cabinet members who would like to ask a question? So, before we - oh, sorry, Rhys. OK, Councillor Rhys, Thomas. I'm going to need just... Apologies, just the last minute question from me. Do we know when Flintshire County Council's cabinet will be making a decision on this, please? It might be in there, but do we know? I do. Tomorrow. A worry, Diok. Diok Jles, any other cabinet members? Mark, did you want to come in in a moment? Yeah, I've got some other people first, sorry, just confirming. So, just before we move on to non-cabinet members, forgive me if I've missed this, Liz. But can I just ask you about the repayment of the borrowing that's needed, and the time that that will need to begin, because I think that's important to the overall picture here, Diok. So, yes, Liz, Thomas is going to answer that question. Good morning, Prada. Yeah, so, because of the length of time and the way that the grant funding works, or the grant funding is in two phases, there's a development phase, and then there's a build phase, the costs or the council share the costs will be split over that period. So, it'll begin in 2024, and it will go all the way up to 2028. Depending on the structure of the legal agreements will depend on how the length, the way the borrowing will be structured, but the maximum is what's been included in the report. So, there'll be small amounts of that will come into revenue for repayment of borrowing in 2526 and in 2627. They total roundabout, you know, we were talking about estimating the cost of borrowing and it's changing daily, that will be around about 22,000, with the bulk of it being hit in 2829 financial year, and that will be 136,000. So, as you say, the bulk of the repayment will be in a few years' time, and of course, as we all do, you know, we hope that the council will be in a better financial position then, so repairing that borrowing, that being able to do that is really doing as a favour with regards to the borrowing impact now. OK, so I have Councillor Bobbie Fieldy first of all. I've also got Hugh Hildot-Troberts and Mark Young, but I saw Bobbie quick off the mark first. Thank you, Jill. I'm pleased the joint funding bid to HLF for the 7 million odd pounds between DCC and Flint to build a new state-of-the-art building to house the archives has been successful. Well done to the team, because I think Liz, you were referring to Plan B after the much bigger scheme we had before. I think we could probably say this is Plan B. But can I just ask a question on the report further in, where it states the vacated space at Rithin Jail will be used to expand the heritage attraction on this site, increase football, boost the local economy in Rithin and surrounding areas. As we know, Denvershire Heritage Services only has a very modest budget, which is often propped up by grant funding. I wonder what money has been allocated from the budget to ensure that the heritage service can make the improvements necessary to the vacated space at Rithin Jail. Do you want to come in, Tony? Obviously, this is the aspiration of the heritage service to utilise the additional space and expand the offer. If and when we get to the point where the archives are no longer there, and the heritage service will be looking at levering in external grant funding, for that purpose, so that's the intention point. The reason I brought it up is that if my memory serves me correctly, Alan Smith, who was in post then, he dedicated 60,000 at that time towards what would happen on Rithin Jail site as a start for 10. Obviously, we would need... That's still there. That's still there. I was referring to the necessary capital work that will be needed to modify the jail in terms of accessing grant funding for that kind of thing. It was only part of the funding, but it was a start. I can just add to that, just from a kind of cheap index perspective, we talked about heritage services there. Let's be clear, it's the council's commitment, isn't it? So it's a service that will help to do that, but obviously there's a whole support mechanism the council has that will assist. Using that 60,000 pounds into order to help find alternatives, and then that part of that is also the support mechanism in terms of grant funding, et cetera. There's not a service commitment, it's a council commitment. Thank you. Dale, are you content with that, Councillor? Lovely. Okay. So we've got Councillor Hugh, Hildec Roberts. Next, please. Dale, thank you. But Bobbie's, actually, the majority of what I was going to raise, Bobbie's already covered, but I just asked, can we have that minute to agree with us? Okay. So we've got that to refer to it for the time. Just one thing on the head to terms, really, Liz, and the negotiating going forward, it worries me that the lease is 50 years, because I'm borrowing, if I'm right, Liz is 25, yeah? Ish, yeah. And I'm just thinking back 50 years ago, we didn't have iPhones 50 years ago. For those of you who were in schools thought it was to have computers, some massive BBC computers, there wasn't such things as a scanner, it was a fax and a photocopier, it was about as far as we got. But I'm just thinking, are we tying ourselves in for too long a period over 50 years, because maybe technology might have evolved, and we stuck with a building for that period of time. I'm just thinking, would there be a break clause in there somewhere? I think it would be sensible going forward. And then just on the, I think Jill's question was right on the finances. So 136,000 of 29s, indeed, roughly, is that capped? So is the interest capped, or will it increase? And just looking at the vulnerability, knowing that the budget challenges we've got now, what they could be in a few years time, will that fluctuate my question? Jill. Can I also say, I agree with Judy Matthews, we actually need to celebrate this, because it's been a long time coming. And I, you know, I had concerns as a written member, what impact it would have on written, but I see the positives that written jail, we'll get out of this now. And so I'm really chuffed that we've actually got some money. Do you want to come in first? I'll come in on the first part of the question. Yeah, with regard to the lease terms, the discussions were around us protecting our investment, and over the longest appropriate period. And we are being guided on that by officers, by property officers. There is, there will be break clauses throughout those feelings. And so if either flinture or debaucher want to walk away, then there are clauses in the agreement to be able to address that. And I'll ask Liz to pick up the other question. Yeah, Liz. Yeah, I think it's a fair question. You know, with the lease, you're trying to balance protecting the investment that the council is putting in, so that you're securing the use of a long-term assets, but also recognizing that 50 years is a long time, and you know, things change, and you need to be able to adapt with that. So there have been a number of discussions around that. In terms of the borrowing, of course, because it's over a four-year period, the level, the cost of borrowing fluctuates during that period of time. And so, of course, the cost of borrowing can go up, but also the cost of borrowing can come down. As can the costs of what we are trying to deliver, and we will not be at build stage for another 18 months, I think, Liz. So at that point, though, we'll have cost certainty around the project. So, you know, from a sensitivity point of view, you know, it could fluctuate, but we could also push the borrowing over a lot possibly, look to push the borrowing over a longer period, particularly if we do sign into a 50-year lease, it may be possible to do it over a longer period. Of course, it costs us more than in total terms, so there are things that we're looking at. So I can't provide the guarantees, but at today's rates, which is borrowing at about 5%. Thank you. Thanks, Liz. So just to clarify, there's flexibility to spread over a longer period of time, should we need to. There might be. It's something we're exploring, but we need the terms of the lease in order to be able to continue with that piece of work. But what we've given is what we consider to be the maximum if the interest rate is at the current rate. If it doesn't go up, but it could also come down. Okay, Council Mark Young, did you want to come in? Well, I think you can't believe it's four years ago, and Craig still looks as young as ever. So that's really good. So I think this is plan B, I think it was me who raised it previously. And it is a celebration, but just a couple of questions, partnerships are difficult. So if anything goes to plan, that's great. So if it doesn't go to plan who's responsible because we've got staff from both authorities working, so is that arrangement confirmed? And also the Council and Welsh Government have helped a lot of smaller local archives than the archive being one. I can't see any mention of partnership work in which is on the agenda rightly in the way we deliver services. So are we going to keep them partnerships better in the future than local partnerships? Some joint funding arrangements has also been very popular. So the one on the working with smaller archives like them, the archive, I know there's more, and the management of this system when you've got two sets of staff on different authorities, is that tight enough on the agreement? If it does go wrong. Jock them out. Yes, happy to answer those questions. So the partnership agreement will put all those measures in place. The archive is now a joint archive and we've been working on that basis through a much looser agreement. And as you can imagine over the last four years, we've had some challenges and the partnership has stayed strong throughout that period. So I feel as confident that we're in as good a place as we can be, but the partnership agreement will make sure that that's all tied up through the legal legal structures. I'd like to see a lot more partnership working with other archives across the county. I did have a discussion with the chair of the 10 B archives and held out my hand of friendship in that direction. And I think that's the sort of thing that we'd like to free staff up to do more of at the moment. There's so much time spent trying to protect the archives in the cells in the jail. If we can free up our staff to be out working the communities more and do more partnership working, then that's all for good. That's great because we've obviously worked on bottom market where they're going to be based on that hand of hand of friends. It's been appreciated and keep it stuck out. Jock them out. Thank you. I can't see everybody's sat there, but I can't see anybody else indicating and I can't see anybody indicated on the screen is that correct Gary. Okay, so, so just to sum up, you know, this is a grant that's that's been hard won. There's been an incredible amount of hard work to get us to this point. And I do want to thank the officers involved, the lead member, the former cabinet members who were obviously here at the beginning of this journey. Indeed, the, the local members who who have worked closely on this as well. I think it's been, it's been well executed and, you know, with a real testament to, to what, to what can be done when we really do put everybody's shoulder to the wheel. So, so thank you to everybody involved. I'd like to move on to the recommendations. So I will pass on to Councillor. And risk win to outline those four as deal. Thank you very much chair. Thank you to all of you for your contribution to debate as well today. And also in the past to be fair. This has been debated in detail over a period of time and has been through scrutiny committee as well. We are nearly at the end of the journey. The recommendations are 3.1 that cabinet confirms its support for the Northeast Wales archive to accept the national loyalty heritage fund fund grant offer of 7,371,397 pounds from subject to flinci county councils cabinet doing the same. 3.2 that cabinet confirms the commitment for temperature county council to contribute to match funding of 2,052,358 pounds of capital funding, which will be paid for via potential borrowing subject to flinci county council, confirming their acceptance of the grounds and their capital contribution. It is expected that the maximum revenue costs to temperature county council will be 136,000 pounds. 3.3 that cabinet gives authorizes delegated authority to the chief executive officer and lead member for Welsh language culture and heritage to sign a collaboration agreement that covers the construction of the new facility. The operation and Northeast Wales archives and the heads of terms for the lease of the new building subject of costs being containable within the overall budget of 12,892 pounds 294. And 3.4 that cabinet confirms that he's has read and destroyed and taken account of the well being impact assessment in appendix one as part of its considerations. Thank you very much. I propose. Excuse me, dear councillor when can we see a show of hands for all in favor. Oh, sorry Gary. Very councillor winds proposed you need a second. Oh, I'm sorry. Excuse me. Okay, so could we have a second deal, councillor Julie Matthews. Okay, so we're all right to go to the votes. We are amazing. Right. Okay. So, could we have a show of hand please from cabinet members all those in favor. That's unanimous. Thank you very much. The chair back now for the next item. Thank you everybody. I think that was a really, really useful discussion and lots of, lots of really good questions there to drill into the details. So, yeah, did, did a good job. Thank you. [BLANKAUDIO] Okay, so we're just waiting for the chair to return. Welcome, while we're waiting. Gary Davis and James Curran and Nicholas Dubbins for the next item. [BLANKAUDIO] Okay, so we'll take the time that we're waiting just to introduce the next item. On the lead member on this item, I will wait for, for councillor McClellan to return. But rather than have radio silence, we'll, we'll at least introduce what's coming up. So item six will be sustainable communities for learning and rolling program. I will be introducing the report as lead member for education, children and families. We also have Nicholas Dubbins with us as corporate direction. Corporate director for social services and education. Gary Davis head of education, and we have James Curran from the modernizing education team. And I think I've filled enough there, councillor McClellan is, is back in the room. So do you. I've, I've just introduced the item. I'll hand over to you to get the ball rolling, councillor McClellan. I'll hand over to a girl in James. Sorry, I thought you. I've introduced the items coming. Okay, deal. Okay, so, so as I've said, this is the item sustainable communities for learning, rolling program. And I'll give a brief introduction and then hand over to our offices who have joined us. So this report considers the proposed submission to Welsh government of our strategic outline program for investment in our school buildings. And this is part of the sustainable communities for learning program, which was formerly known as 21st century schools. So Welsh government has changed its approach for how it plans to deliver investment to improve school buildings in Wales. And rather than five bands of funding has, has been the case for band A and band B investment through 21st century schools. It is moving on to more flexible approach over nine years, and these are divided into three blocks of three years each. So each local authority has been asked by Welsh government to update their strategic outline program from investment under this new nine year structure with projects essentially ready for business cases to be brought forward for the first set of three years. Projects being developed and going through the statutory consultation process for the second set of three years and pipeline projects for the final three years. The strategic outline program itself will then be reviewed every three years to track progress and make any necessary adjustments. Now here in Zambia, the band B programs have been impacted by a variety of delays, which means that we are not able to deliver them within the original band B timescales. The same level of ambition exists for these schools, regardless though, and so we are recommending in this report that these schools, namely, a school plus brand different, a school pandre. Then be high school, a school bring caution and the school going on are incorporated into the new strategic outline program, so that this ambition can still be realized. In addition, we are recommending that a scholar cast deck is also included. No borrowing will be required by the council for this project, as much as the match funded needed by the Welsh government will be provided by section 106 funds from a local housing developer. This means that the small extension projects at the school, otherwise at risk from increased costs would now be able to be completed. However, due to unprecedented financial pressures in common with other local authorities across the UK, the council now needs to consider what is affordable over each of the three time year periods. The council is required to make a capital contribution to any project, and this contribution would need to be funded by prudential borrowing. Such borrowing impacts on our revenue budget, which is under significantly more pressure than it was when the initial band B proposal was put forward. If we were to continue to progress all school projects rolled over from band B in the initial three year times frame, there is a real concern that further cuts to services, including to delegated school budgets may be needed to fund these borrowing costs. This report therefore recommends that borrowing for the former band B projects be staggered in order to spread borrowing costs over a more manageable timeframe. As a school plus broad different is the most advanced project, we are recommending that the necessary investment in this project is sought in the first three year period. With the remaining former band B schools that still have a way to go to be included in the second three year period of 2027 to 2030. For the remaining three year period between 2030 and 2033 consideration will be needed to progress further ambitions dependent of course on the council's financial position at the time of the first review in 2027. I have met with all the head teachers and many of the staff and governance at the schools in the former band B many times, and I know that this will be a blow to those who may now need to wait longer for work to begin, as it is a blow within the education service in down the ship. I'm very aware of the building improvements needed at these schools, and I want to repeat that the level of ambition for these schools remains work will continue towards realising those ambitions as quickly as possible, including any interim work that can be progressed in the meantime. However, given the financial pressure the council is under, and the need to look at all revenue costs ahead of setting next year's budget, for which the forecast is no brighter this year, and indeed is worse. There is a clear need to consider the revenue implications of borrowing and the time period in which this is most affordable during this challenging period of the council finances. Reducing the wider financial pressure by spending borrowing over a longer timeframe allows us to both retain our overall ambitions, and limit revenue pressures on frontline services, including schools in the coming years. And it's for this reason that I am recommending approval of this report to cabinet. So I'll now hand over to our officers who have joined us, who will be able to give us more detailed information on the rolling program proposed, and they and I will of course be happy to answer any questions. Hello, I think my lead member has covered everything that I was sort of proposing to say to start off with in her, in her opening statements. I have to say, you know, I, we acknowledge and our difficult decisions to be made. There are possibly unpopular decisions and challenging conversations to be had. However, I have to say that considering the financial climate that we are in as an authority and nationally as well. And I am pleased that we are still discussing investing 60 million in schools in them be over the next number of years. That does, you know, film me with with with hope optimism. And you know that we are still discussing this, you know, the 60 million, you know, it's a huge amount of money that will improve the buildings. That's where our children are educated in, as as lead member said the, the expectation from Welsh government, it is a nine year program split into three with review every three years, the expectation from Welsh government for the first block for the first three years is that projects that are deliverable within that three year window are progressed. Hence why, with a school class from the front being at River three. And that is the, the most deliverable project within within this first within this first window. I'm not going to, I'm not going to, you know, keep on on talking for, for a long period because I think there will be some questions and it might be easier that we respond to the questions if that's okay with the chair. It's absolutely fine. James, do you wish to add anything? Nothing to add to it. Thank you, thank you, thank you, League member and thank you. I've just got a specific question really about people numbers first go on different because you've said you know you need to increase the capacity to 220. Do you have any figures at the minute as to how many children are waiting for this particular provision at that school at the moment. I'm a governor myself at a primary school. There are a few people's there who would, you know, really would benefit from being in another facility, although the staff there doing an amazing job and supporting these people's at the moment. So, but do you have any figures at the moment as to how many are waiting. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, if you, you know, I know we've all slept since then but if you cast your minds back to October 2022 and February 23. When we bought the, the proposal to increase capacity to cabinet. You know, all the, all the numbers around, you know, the waiting lists. We know a school class from different currently is oversubscribed to the tune of and I'm looking at James here because I'm hoping that he's a numbers person with to the tune of about 30 or so. So they are oversubscribed at the moment, we are aware from colleagues in health that are considerable waiting lists with regard to cams assessment and neuro diversity. So we are aware that there are a number that are awaiting awaiting that diagnosis to be able to access the provision. And I don't know if James has got the numbers to hand. And the challenge is always with exact numbers with them. It's based on individual needs as they present. So, say, as Gary alluded to see the information we have as effectively the numbers in the early years. So what was key stage one. They've doubled in recent years. And I know there are a number of children with children settings across Denver share were potentially passed on for maybe more of a long term solution for them, which obviously places of pressure on cutting schools at the moment. And, you know, long term is questions in terms of what the best outcome for those children would be. And we've recently seen a couple of cases of tribunals coming forward, where potentially mounted replacements may be required. And I think one of the key factors in recent cases has been the proposals for the school in terms of, you know, we've got clear proposals in terms of timelines for when this is going to come forward. And I think that is, I think, you know, one of the issues which we've tried to do in the design of the school is make sure that the rooms, the kind of the class structure would accommodate small groups are typically within a plus from different and ideal position would be classes around six to eight pupils based on lead. The risk moving forward is those numbers of being lost and that the work could create an additional challenge from parents and also issues for the school in terms of management of people. So, you know, I think within this is always a challenge with schools in the special sector to come up with exact numbers, but, you know, in terms of the information presented in the business case, and in the statutory proposal, we can clearly see significant need coming forward over the next three to four years. There's need in the system at the moment, but we anticipate it's only going to expand in the future. Thank you very much for that. I think it's just highlighting how desperately needed this, this, this new build is for children in Denver. So thank you. Yeah, just to just to add a little about what James touched on with regard to younger children. So, so I visit schools across Dambisha, and I know that with in conversations with her teachers and staff that nursery admissions, for example, they are seeing a lot more need coming in. I don't want to ponder on why that may be. Obviously that's the health, but we know that the picture is changing with regard in need. And, of course, if we can't, if we do find following assessment that children need places and those aren't those places aren't there, then we would need to look at and account out of county placements, which is, is obviously bad news all around because they're incredibly costly. There's also, you know, for a younger child in particular to have an out of county placement would be, would be difficult and, you know, certainly not something that we would seek to put in place unless we absolutely have to. And I don't know what the reasons are, you know, post pandemic, we know that the numbers have risen, socioeconomic circumstances, the modern world we live in, you know, we're constantly correct surrounded by stimulus. And we know that children are accessing technology younger and younger. There's a myriad of reasons it could be. But we do know that younger children are coming through who need support in a way that we've not seen before. I can see Nicola nodding there. And so that that's certainly what I found in conversation with schools on the ground. I think it's a wider point that I made before across all services, not just education, we're mopping up problems societal problems and that's put huge financial pressures on as the local authorities. Okay. Peace. Thank you chair. This isn't my question to get out but I'm just coming back in reply to what comes literally said there. I quite like in my questions to come back to the document that we're meant to be looking at today I didn't realize we were going to be looking at a school plan. I'm different today, which is why I didn't bring my plus brand different file with me. Another reason is that it's getting so it's getting too big to carry it but to come back to something you said there and get referred to the 2022 document. I think just to balance what has been said about that is that, that same document said that at the moment 16% of the pupils at the school plus brand different are from outer county. Now I'm not sure what the numbers are if it's 16% so we are actually educating children quite rightly from from out of county. But I think it's important to have that education in active facility like a Scott last brand different, but I didn't really think that today we were going to start discussing the numbers and so on but if you want to do that then we certainly can do that. When we look at the numbers, maybe this is this is and there's an opportunity to do this maybe at another place or another time. I don't know. The lead member has spoken quite all the time on this but if you want to come back on that by all means do and then I'll come back with my questions. Okay, I think I think that the lead member does generally speak quite quite at length on on items involving their portfolio so I wouldn't say there was anything unusual there. I would agree that the report we're looking at today is about how far we have progressed with various projects and which projects fit the criteria that Welsh government has put forward. So we're going to go back to Julie and Councilor Julie Matthews asked a question, and we provided an answer. So, if you know that that's within within what what members can do and being correct me if I'm wrong. This discussion is about how projects have progressed and the, the project to extend capacity in a school plus Bron Dufferin is the furthest along it's, it's, you know, it's very close to having reba three, I think it's the status. Whereas the other projects are some way off I think in excess of 100 days to get to the point where they could reach that status so it is absolutely about what fits the criteria but Julie Matthews did ask the question. And that warranted an answer. Yeah, yeah I just wanted to come back there because it is mentioned in appendix on regarding the rolling program of projects. So what I want it to highlight there is a scope. That's one question is furthest along and the reason why it is furthest along and it's the most urgent project to get done and over the line and that was the point I was making. Sorry if there was any confusion. Let's let's let the process processes that help us come to this decision isn't it. And that's that's the discussion. Okay. Can't see any more hands up from. Oh, yes, I did have questions. I was only coming back. Okay. What's considered you will be sorry I think I think I was quite right to come back and say that 16% are actually from a two country that was the only point I was making. Thank you, Chair. So you got a question that's brilliant. And then I've got a delis and mark. I start writing those names down. Peace. Okay. The reason that I've got a few questions for you, getting some for James. It's because I do feel that my work on the cabinet this morning is to point out a few of the risks come arising from what's in front of us in appendix one. My first question, Karen, what's the wealth for ruling program? It's not the best translation, possibly, but there we go. It says, I'll call it a ruling program. I felt this morning that this was my place once again to outline some of the risks that I see with the fact that this rolling program has been set out as it has in the document. And due to that, I don't feel that I am in a situation where I can support this, unfortunately. I thank you very much for all the work that's gone into it, but I have a number of doubts about it. The first risk, and I'm not going to go over to talk about planning or anything like that, but the first risk and fair play to you. You have included this on page 59. If this didn't succeed in getting approval by the planning committee, and that is certainly a risk and thank you for noting that risk. But I feel that that is a conversation for a different place and all to you today. Secondly, I have pointed out to cabinet. So let me do this once again in a public forum. I feel that there is a risk that the challenge will be made to the process that's been set out in the school organization called 2018. So that's another possible risk. And if that happens, this will put this project back. If that happens, the other risk, the third and the final one. I am not totally sure whether you have got members of the local mag, the local neighboring schools and the businesses and organizations that will be impacted by the first part of the plan. I'm not sure whether you persuaded them about this plan as a set out. So get a few questions for you there. So, if we fail to get planning permission for the first part, which is a skill plus one different on the favored option one side, then if Welsh government have provided funding for the first part of the project, which should happen between your one and your three. I feel Welsh government then chance for that funding or withhold that funding for another project to be ready to go for the Reba stage three or whatever it's referred to. So, have you got assurance of that? And have you got any evidence that Welsh government would be willing to do that? The second question is, if the first part of the project proceeds and costs increased due to inflation, how much assurance have you got in four years that there is sufficient funding left in order to continue with the other schools that are mentioned for years four to six and seventy nine. So is there an assurance that funding will come from Welsh government for those schools that have been disappointed in the past two weeks, having heard that their projects have been put back? Are those fair questions? Okay, thank you, Gary. Thank you very much. I'll answer both questions in turn, and I'm sure that James will come in as well. James is the man of the process of the code, the school reorganization code. We do agree and we do accept that there is a risk with regards to the planning process. That process will run by itself. And then if the process ultimately means that planning permission isn't given for the site for the plus project you asked, but then we would have to reload. And then we submit a SOP. I don't know what a SOP is in Welsh, a strategic outline proposal. We'd have to reconsider and re-decide what happens next. Would Welsh government support? Well, we would have to make sure that our plan and our submission to Welsh government would fulfill their needs and meet the requirements of the grant for the next stage. What we, as an education department, what we wouldn't do is sit back for three years and do nothing. There is an agreement that there is funding from Welsh government available, and also that the allocation to membership, even though we are extending the project, and Liz is nodding at the back. There is an agreement that there is funding for the membership available for the project. So the funding would be available. We would have to make sure that we have the best way, and we'd have to come back to capital scheme for a decision on the next step that would happen then. I'll switch to English. I think it's fair to say that we don't ever assume that planning is a done deal. With every capital project where planning permission is required, we have to go through that process just like every other applicant would have to. So planning is always a risk and always should be. So I think it's fair to say we've always factored that into our thinking because we never take it for granted or assume that just because it's the council applying for the planning permission. That that is somehow going to get through an easy nod. Absolutely not. There's a due process that we have to follow and that we do. And we did with all of the band a schools that required planning permission. So it's part of the business. Just in terms of try to give reassurance if members recall with the band a process, for instance, the program that was approved back in 2010, and what was actually delivered through the lead members at the time. So it's very different from what was approved by then be sure in 2010 and what was delivered. So, you know, that's an indication that effectively the program has been delivered previously as a partnership between damage from Welsh governments. We've been able to change projects during the lifetime of the program, and we were able to successfully banks to resources that were provided were able to provide that additional investment in the written area, the faith project change during the lifetime of the program. And, you know, the dialogue we've always had with Welsh government is about working in partnership to make sure that what we're trying to deliver reflects what the priorities are for membership. And the second question is a guy on all of today. And I can back to the second question, if stage one proceeds and is completed for the second group of three years, with construction costs and material costs all rising, you asked whether they'll be funding to be able to realize the remainder of the dream of the other three projects with regards to giving you robust assurance specific assurance. I can't foresee 100% more. The funding situation will be like in three or four years time. I don't know whether this can either. But the assurance that I can give is that we will work very thoroughly with members with different departments with the schools to be able to fulfill the intention that's in the plan. With regards to whether they'll be Welsh government funding a three four years time. I haven't got the answer to that currently as things stand at the moment. Yes. But will things change in three or four years time. I don't know. I just wanted to thank the three of you for your answers. And just to point out, in addition, as well as the fact that nobody can predict what will happen in three years down the line. One of the difficulties with this is that cabinet members change the cabinet will change lead members change the political climate changes. So a project like this is such a long term project. It goes back before the time of this cabinet and this council, and it will continue after maybe we are no longer here on the cabinet. So thank you very much for your answers. Just briefly, I think, Councillor Rhys Thomas for raising those risks and uncertainties around inflation, planning, potential legal challenges, future Welsh government funding, political changes, et cetera, et cetera. Well, I would say, they probably apply to all projects, actually, don't they? Not just this one. There might be some greater risks when you measure those risks, but they're probably quite common risks to all the projects that we face. And we always have to weigh these risks up. I don't suppose that should stop us from kind of retaining a level of ambition and trying to do things, but it's worth discussing those risks because some of those risks may be greater in certain projects and others. So it's good that we've had that discussion. Yeah, thank you for that, Graham, and I'll lead member for housing. I know that more than well, the houses being built now were decided on well before my time and anything I decide now will be after my time no doubt. Thank you, Graham. I'm going to go down a different route to what Councillor his Thomas has been referring to. I want to refer to page 83, where you refer to the impact and the impact on Welsh. One word causes me concern here, which suggests that may be placing bilingual signs while some English within any new school that's being built in Dembyshire would be optional. It says. That word encouraged to be taken out now. It should either be mandatory because it's Dembyshire property or change encouraged to be supported and don't even feel that is strong enough. I think we need something much more specific, which makes it necessary that any new built by Dembyshire County Council to include signage within and without in bilingually in accordance with the county policy of course. I agree. If I can come in, please chair, I agree with you on that. Maybe it's the wording and maybe encouraged is not the best word there. But with regards to the language standards in our schools in the other bands, the other schools, all the signs are bilingual. So I agree with your point that that's unfortunate wording. The impact assessment is a live document. So it's easy to adapt data to strengthen the wording. Thank you. You're happy. Okay. Thank you, leader. Thank you, guys. I'm going to come back. First of all, Gary mentioned it mentioned is 20 answer trace is question. And in the next item, we've got the medium term forecast for the county council, which don't look very promising. We are expecting major problems up until 2028, which is in the middle of the second part of this. So I think as things stand on a financial basis currently, the level of assurance about this program moving forward has to be considered as a risk. And what you're asking us as a cabinet today I feel when I look at this latest is for us to prioritize which projects we feel should go first. Knowing that the schools that are first on the list are more likely to be completed because of the financial situation. The reason that school plus broad different is first on our list of priorities is because you were further ahead with the planning. No. With regards to planning that makes total sense, but with regards to asking us as a cabinet to prioritize, I don't think it's a good reason for prioritizing. It makes it easier. Yes. It's easier because you're further along with the planning. That's a skill, plus, but different is placed first on the list, but with regards to per fraternity is that the one with the most need, not saying it isn't, but I don't necessarily know that. Also considering that there is a risk to the following projects and it's going to be higher because of the financial predictions in the medium term. So my predicament is, how can I use a cabinet member agree to prioritize a school plus broad different as the one that's most needed, and it's going to give the most benefit to the county or to them be or. I don't feel that having the scheme further forward is the correct way of prioritizing. With regards to the prioritizing, yes, plus, but different is further ahead because that so that is one reason, the need with regards to space. There is no sufficient sufficient space. We're talking about capacity for children who need a level of education that the school like a school plus, but different can offer. There isn't capacity currently in membership of that. When we have cases where there are children who need that support, if we can fulfill their needs locally, we have to go out of county to schools that are further away, which involves travelling costs. We know that the school transport budget and is overspent over budget. We also know we want to retain the children locally. That's really important. But also, whilst government is clear in their requirements, in the first three years, they want us to prioritize schools or projects that we can deliver and complete during that period. If we prioritize one of the others, the project would not be completed within three years, for example, such as them be high school. I think the earliest we could be on site. Cutting the first sword would be spring 2027. That would be the earliest. So, the rationale behind a school plus one different is one, we can meet the expectations of Welsh government to complete the project within the timetable. The need with regards to the capacity is there with regards to the budget as well. Over the next few years, the percentage of funding the Welsh government is offering to special schools is higher and our contribution will be much lower. It's 75%, 25%, rather than 65, 35. One of the main reasons we are further ahead with this project, but there is a major need. But we've already seen back in 2022, when we agreed to expand the capacity of the school, because the need was there, and if we can't fulfill it, our costs to educate children outside of the local authority area will increase and put more pressure on school revenue budgets. So, from cabinet members, we're okay for time, but we could ask you to be just the provision of be as succinct as possible, and if a point's been made, questions being asked. I don't want to ask it again, please. So, the, the order I've got is, Dallas, Mark Pauling and move. So, Dallas, there's space in, yes. Thank you, Mr Chairman. In reality, and great number of the questions I intended to ask have been asked by Councillor Thomas and Councillor Ellis, and we're thinking along the same lines, I must admit, but I just wanted to raise a point. And it's been acknowledged already. I realize how difficult as somebody who's been in education for many years, how difficult it is to choose between pupils with additional learning needs, and pupils in schools in the more deprived areas. And that's what we're talking about here, we're comparing those two things, and we've got children here in a school pen drive and then be high school, which are some of the most deprived schools in the county. 70% of the pupils in a school pen drive eligible for free school meals. So, I would say that there is a major need there. So that's something I'm very concerned about looking at this, and looking at the risks facing a school person. I acknowledge there would be a risk with any application and any project, but there are real risks, which have been acknowledged in your own report about the plasma different project. So, I had a question about the transfer of funding and ensuring that a school pen drive and then be high school that I've already been waiting for over 10 years for improvements to the schools. There are schools there who've got boilers breaking down all the time, water coming in through the roof. You can't say that that is a suitable environment for children to learn. So my question is, how much time would it take to move those projects, plans are being developed now, a site has been agreed on, steps have been taken to start working on these projects, and please correct me if I'm wrong. But I think that Councillor Jill German, I don't understand these reports, but she said, it's about 100 days to get it from one stage to the next stage. That's not going to take three or four years then is it. So how much time would it take to be able to move these up if a school plus from different didn't succeed. I think it's a really important point you've raised there around the need. All of the schools that we have put forward for the rolling program have need. That is why they were part of our B program and that is why they still remain on this list. I think it's important to note that other local authorities when they have moved into the rolling program have actually taken some schools off that list. And that's for them to have made decisions on, but our ambition for these schools recognising the need remains. But you're absolutely right. There are other schools in the county that also have needs, but we have recognised that these are the priority areas that we need to move forward on. We will continue to work on those other schools during that first phase. That isn't to say we're going to just put those projects on the shelf until we get to the second part of the rolling program. We'll continue to do the work behind the scenes as much as we can within the resources to enable us so that we are in the best position at the second slot of phases to be able to move forward with pace with those. So, you know, absolutely assurance. We recognise the need in all of those schools. We recognise the need across all of our school estate. Absolutely. But the Welsh government guidance is really clear that first phase has to be those that are the most advanced and ready to be brought forward. So we are following that guidance. On the, on the, how long would it take to be shovel ready are, you know, our, you know, JCP is on site type of scenario. I wish it was 111 days. It's actually 111 weeks. So, it's, it's, it's, it's considerably, you know, it's not my strong considerably longer and unfortunately so our colleagues and, you know, it's not my river and all the, you know, building regs and things. They're not my area of expertise and I defer to colleagues in design and construction, who, who know considerably more about this. They, they tell us that, you know, to get to a, a river three points, which is a freeze point, there would be with regards to Penderay. You know, the, there is about 111 weeks of development work required before construction could start. So that's all your tendering and all your planning and, you know, and all, all of those processes. So based on, on, you know, the, the project, the earliest Penderay could start any construction would be, would be in 2026. And, you know, the proposal is that we would be looking at spring 27. And there's about another 43 weeks to reach sort of a start required for a, for a start of construction. So the earliest construction could start on the Denver high site would be around April 27. And that, that would be sort of the, the earlier so from, you know, from, from that point, it's not as long a, a delay with the team we've got, we can, we can deliver numerous projects we've done in the past, you know, they run concurrently. It's not, we have to set one and finished and finish another, you know, there are, it is a small team, but a very, they're more likely all watching, they're all very dedicated. And, you know, experienced project managers that would be able to deliver more, more than one, I think, at some point last year we have 27 projects at the team were, were juggling at the same time. So, I absolutely accept the, and, you know, we cannot disagree on, on the level of, on the level of need, and the deprivation in, in some of the areas we're talking about. And, you know, supporting, supporting that through community focused schools and other elements of funding that we get is something. Obviously, you know, it is something that we, we do prioritize, such as food and fun, but the summit, which we'll be running in, in, in pendre. But again, you know, you're right, they add difficult decisions and, and difficult conversations, and I haven't got the magic wand of an answer there with them. Just come back on one small point, I'll take two seconds. And do cut up and flow it with the heat aid, but my namahossi, there was unplanted in the day. I acknowledge what you're saying is impossible to choose between children. The thing is we want all of these children to have suitable resources. So my question there, you've just say that you can work on projects, working side by side. So why isn't the planning for a school pendre at the same point at a school plus or different? Why haven't they been developed side by side so that they're at the same point? The reason they have been developing a different pace, some go quicker than others for different reasons. The reason why we don't put everything in the same part for the first three years is because of the affordability elements with regards to the budget. Some projects, something comes up, there's some difficulty arises and it slows the whole project down where that might not impact another project. There are so many different reasons why there are longer periods for some projects to reach a certain point, compared to whether there are many reasons with regards to capacity, availability outside of our team. As regards to the processes that you've got to follow, doing surveys and so on, there are many things. Not everyone follows exactly the same pathway at the same time. I'm not totally happy with that answer, but thank you. So the final point with regard to progress with a school pendre, so I think it's important to make clear that that project has been running in parallel. But the delays that have come about due to that project have been to do with site selection. So the initial site that was put forward, we looked at again and cut a very long story short. We've come to say that we will remodel the existing school, listening to what had come from the stakeholders. That project hasn't been on ice, it's had its own issues. It's had its own issues of why it has been slow to progress, unconnected with a school plus from different and indeed them be high, because the them be high project is linked with a school plus from different. I do think it's important as well to mention the other two schools in Slangothland because this envelope of money is wider than Dembe. We're investing an enormous amount of money into schools in Dembe, but the schools in Slangothland are also in need. They're sharing many facilities, they've got very similar issues than the ones that has described. So, you know, this is a wider Dembe-shire envelope, but, you know, not to want to repeat myself, but the project of us per a school plus from different is further on. But we have not had the other school pandemic on ice, I think that's important to point out. It's had its own delays, it's experienced its own issues. So, we're still okay, but if we could ask you to be succinct and again if the question's been answered, perhaps we could move on. So, Mark, do you want to take a board? Thank you. Obviously, we know this is tough, and we want to do it all. It's right, we've got 30 million to spend in Dembe and it's right to have that debate on how we decide. And I fully understand the decision can be made, but I just want to raise some points and then I've got a couple of questions. I will start before I go on to the negatives of Dembe High with positive, so I'm going to show you some details of the condition of the school. But I will take the opportunity to say when we've done the surveys recently on the state of the building, Dembe High was still the worst in Dembe-shire. So, I don't want to competition, I just want to make that fact. But, lead member, again, the team, the fantastic head teacher people, they've done brilliantly in a school which is really in desperate need of works on getting out of special measures and being fantastic and we all should celebrate that. It's not all negatives, but if you look at the finances and we've got Liz, who meeting shares the good news regularly of where we are, and regionally it's the same, we've got 30 million. And I just want to touch on how we spend that, so I sent you all pictures and I just want to, I just walk around because just as chair of the school, I walk around and when I've done this, when you've got that hope of a project, I've defended the authority. I've said, don't worry, it's coming the refurb. Now it's not, I feel the need to talk about the condition, we've got mold, damp, we've got playgrounds, open space areas we can't use, it's been over 10 years, it's been mentioned. So, as chair, as elected member for that area, I'm going to have to apologise because it's a real difficult one, not here to blame anyone. That's the position we're in. So I've got a couple of questions, it's quite emotional because when you walk around, you do realise the state of the school. Okay, so for Graham, I just want to ask a couple, I think, when we have made investments, we've gone to full council scrutiny. Or I think this should have gone to the local mag before today, just have that political debate, have that chat, it didn't, I'm disappointed. Gary, when we've got all the information of how much work is needed on a building and the mold, holes in ceilings, water coming in, windows boarded up, when we've got all that information, are we able to ignore it and spend it all on one school? So, I'd question that, when we know how bad, then behind is, can we ignore it, and I'm not saying it's an easy one, but you can share funds. So that's my question to Gary, and then just to delete members, just to plead, revisit, let's go away and debate this and see how we can share the money because I believe we've only got 30 million. Nice, definitely. So, so I'll leave it there. You've asked questions to Gary, and Graham, I'm guessing is a wide process, but you've heard the challenges around decision making that the lead member and lead officers have to make. So, I mean, you've asked the question to Gary and Graham, I'll bring them in, but I think very much, these are issues for lead officers and the lead member. So this decision could have come to mouth, just to debate, in the last meeting, the meeting was promised, me and you said that was good, so it was promised. When we've gone on major projects, I've got my voice back now, when we've gone on major projects, we have touched up to full council, the flood defences, recycling centre, I promise I'm not mentioning that today, but I have, but we have debated it and we've had that political chat. And I just think when you spend them 30 million and you've got schools in desperate need, I do think the questions are relevant, and I think we should have had that debate and I've spoken with officers, and we all know it's not easy, but I just think we have to really think about how we spend this 30 million. What we could do, what we could do in the future, because I do believe once that 30 million is gone, we're not going to have money in the short and long term, and we've got a school which is now desperate. And if anyone walked around, you would agree, and I would want to do every school, I sit on local charities, mental health boards, I understand it and I get it. It's how we share the funds fairly, the equality comes into it, so I do think the questions are relevant, and any answers would be OK, and it's up, please, and then to revisit this. Thank you. So the question, why hasn't it been to member area group, and I'll let Gary deal with the full council issue. Well, I think it has been to, I think we've had lots of discussion to member area group around this decision today. It's been benefited coming to us and I thought it was promised, I thought that was promised. I don't care. This, the decision around the strategic plan, the sort, the requirement from Welsh government is that it is signed off. It is a cabinet decision that it is signed off by cabinet. It's exactly the same process that we did with Christ, the word real high, all the band-aid projects went through, you know, exactly the same, the same process, you know, with it being a, a cabinet. Decision that they're the, you know, I'm not saying one way, but they're the expectations of the requirements from from Welsh government with regards to submitting the SOP, which is what we are asking permission to do now, isn't it to submit the plan to Welsh governments to put a line in the sand that this is the ambition for the next three, six and nine years. And as we said, you know, with band-aid things changed from original SOP to to what was, what was sort of completed at the end of band-aid. So, yes, you know, it has this decision, this actual decision around submitting the SOP, it hasn't been called into scrutiny. You know, it hasn't gone to scrutiny. The, the rolling program, if you look at every, you know, the various elements of the rolling program has been to, it's been to, and I've got it written down to them. I've been to cabinet a big four times since April 22, but that's the, the wider decisions and wider around plasma and different, and around the program itself not this decision. That the schools on band B of the schools contained within the rolling program, we have not changed it. We've not removed anything we've just added the one additional primary, which is cast deck for the reasons explained. But the ambition of the council remains the ambition to deliver on these schools so that that is the situation. I think you hit the nail on the head bar if what you said it is, it about incredibly challenging decision. And, and these are the decisions, I think, since the inception of the old prior to this, the 21st century schools, this council pre, pre disaster, this cover that has made difficult decisions as well. But again, thanks, thanks for the points you make for raising those in the email, but we mentioned finance and look, I see Liz wants to come in. Yeah, thank you, the points are all valid. And will we not in the financial position that we were in, we would be, we would be continuing by progressing all of these projects which are needed. The reality is, though, if we progress them all at pace, they all go in with the potential borrowing cost in one hit into the, the MTFP. But the impact of that then is we have to might find further savings elsewhere. And, of course, that means we're then looking at schools budgets. And in the questions I would put to educationalists would be, well, where would you rather than many be spent? Would you rather than many be spent on paying back borrowing for buildings, or would you rather be spending the money on education in those buildings accepting that the state is not the way we would want them to be. So I think that's the debate is around spreading in order not to overload the revenue budgets with the cost of the potential borrowing all in, in a very short window. That's what, that's what I would add. And I get the point about spread, you know, spreading it around. Of course, we've got to meet the terms of the Welsh governments funding in order to lever in what is 75%, 65% and 100% when it comes to carbon reduction. So it has to be a big bang, or not spreading across in order to make everything a little bit better. That's not the way the program set out from Welsh government works. They just just wanted to interject that hope that helps. Yes, it does. It does less thanks. Yeah. Yeah. I'll put you can come back in. There's a few people have indicated to speak. I think it is a good place. And I think it's the sad fact that underlines the challenges around these extremely difficult decisions. And I've talked about historically making decisions. But of course, the difference that this current client in this current climate is the huge financial pressures of local government in Wales face, including this council. But it is set against the program that they don't have in the parts of the UK to improve school, the learning community to improve build school buildings. But those, those decisions and those challenges have to be considered in like the point that Liz has made. And in fact, what is the number of the paper on how the revenue that the borrowing will impact on the payment, which will impact the cross education and probably across the county as well. Jill, do you want to come back in? Yeah, but time is ticking away. So I have asked that I've said those asking the questions to be succinct. Those answering the questions. Can we be as well as we've got the financial papers to get through. I will be succinct because Liz has covered some of the things that I wanted to say with regard to revenue. So it's been, it's been well documented that although we've increased spending on schools overall as a part of the council budget. We have needed to ask for 3% savings from the schools delegated budgets. It's also well documented that that heads have have communicated with parents the difficulties that this will and is causing them. So we're, we're obviously very, very mindful of that marks right to point out the excellent work that's gone on in them be high. The standard of teaching and learning there is exceptional compared to its starting base. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but the work that they've done is absolutely remarkable. And that work, of course, will go on. All those children have places in that school. I'm not for one minute and be little in the state of the building. I visit there a lot. It's probably the school out of all of them that I know best because I've worked as part of the multi agency group. That work is still part of the overall ambition. It'll just take a little longer. And it is a little longer when you look at what we can do in the interim. And I think the way that this report set up, perhaps gives the false impression that, you know, we'll stand still until 2000 and 27. We won't, we will do whatever we can in the interim so that it's absolutely ready to roll. And then, of course, as things come along to do with community schools and other grants that come along we are extremely mindful that, as you say, the condition report of them be high is as it is. You'll remember, sorry, I am going long. I am. You'll remember, you'll remember me saying before that, you know, I recognize it completely. Sorry. Okay, thanks. I've got going. And then Gwyneth, and then in fairness, Paulie, you've been waiting waiting a while times taking away. I will be very, very short in the context of the maintenance going back to the point of my grades around the means of the building. The context around maintenance is is challenging. The, you know, the maintenance grant has gone down from 1.8 million to 250,000 from Welsh government. It is a challenge. However, we have in discussions with with Mac and the head. We have been communicating with Welsh governments to see if there are options available, where we can sort of maximize the funding that we've got to be able to use some of our. Revenue maintenance funding are the money that we would spend say, you know, for example, if we were spending 100,000 on on Windows, could we use that as part of as the 60 as the 35% of the match funding element. And so there is no cost to them, but there's no borrowing cost. However, we can triple the funding as such to be able to draw some funding down from Welsh government through through the program and Welsh government are open for those discussions. Times ticking on just quickly on that. That's a commitment. Shame's not in the paper. We had that chat. You gave me that commitment and I'll leave it there. No, that's very enough. Mark, you've said what I was going to say, actually, let's keep those channels open. Keep that dialogue happening. Yeah, like, Mark. A question to go about the lawfulness of ignoring a situation we know what I mean, we've talked a lot about the huge processes and the, the, what Welsh government say we've got it. How are we going to implement them, but Gary, did you, you know, you've asked the question that's fine. Yeah, I appreciate the, the hashing you have for the school, etc. I'd question the word ignore. And so what I would say is that, you know, we do do surveys of the building. Yes, we do find things. We will meet all of our legal obligations in respect to the state of those buildings. What I would say is, because I did ask the question of the team. For example, you know, maintenance and refurbishment work does go on. We've currently got a scheme out to tender for refurbishing two science labs at the school. So, you know, so I just questioned the word ignore that soul. I don't, we are. This is the process we have for dealing with these things and we're following the process as a city as we can. Okay, you feel like knows when the cost will go for the millions who do repairs, says how bad it is, but I take the point and I'm going to leave it there. Thank you, Mark. Thanks again. Thanks for your email to give us the heads up. Pauline Pauline. You've been waiting. Basically. Oh, sorry. Yeah. You. Very quickly come back was because you said that if the financial situation wasn't as it was, we'd be moving forwards with all of these. That doesn't equates with what get it said early in the day. You said earlier, when you were answering, that it would take over two years until we would be ready to put a spade in the ground with the other projects that they and they wouldn't be completed before 2027. So just once confirmation, which one of those two comments is correct. Yes, I think you're going to do whether my. Thank you, Gwyneth. I think maybe I was unclear in the way I answered the question, what I was meant was if spending wasn't a problem, we would move ahead as soon as possible with every project that we say have the most need. But that does take time to bring that to a point where we're ready to put the spade in the ground. So just to explain, I was a bit unclear. So the full one question together then is, and I think this is, again, a question that Dylan asked, is it correct then that there are projects, for example, a school pantry have been slowed down because of funding difficulties, and it hasn't got to a point where it could have reached because you've decided to slow things down. They haven't been slowed down because of budgetary decisions. This is the decision to slow things down because of funding. If we proceeded now with a healthy money tree in the corner, we could put the spade in the soil in 2026. As the proposal is here, we're talking about spring 2027. That is the decision with regards to slowing things down, regards to the lead in time that that's required to go through the process. The earliest we could do anything is 2026. Therefore, you could make a decision to prioritize a different school and complete it before in stage one, not within, for what designer construction, tell me we couldn't do from start to finish within three years. Right, sorry, obviously lots of people of Dalith and people have mentioned what was in my email to everybody yesterday, and I am extremely disappointed with what's what's being proposed. I will accept that this project has been discussed several times. What I've never heard before is that this school is more urgent than the others, which is quoted today. The fact that this school seems to be more important than the other two or three, I'm baffled by that really. Because I'm the person really that has to have to go and face, not just the peoples and the staff. It's the people of the upper Denby who feel as if they've been left behind yet again. I'm looking at the well-being impact assessment. There's so many things in there that were applied to Escal Pendrebs so perfectly, and when you think that is such an area of deprivation, the provision of improved facilities in areas of social and economic deprivation. It can lead to an improvement to the sense of value in individuals. I just think I don't know when you say that this is, Bronte Dufferin is more important. I don't understand the logic on that because we can all argue that each one is important. The other thing really is that when you say that Escal Pendrebs hasn't been on ice, I think it's important to remember that this has been discussed and I do have an email with a plan from 2010. August 2010, so we're talking about 14 years, so you can understand, I'm sure, how people, when I go back to the school, I'm going to be thinking yet again that they've been pushed down the list. I don't have anything else to say really, but I just don't extremely. Thank you, Paulie, and it's well put, and it's well said, and again, as with Mark, thanks for the email, and I don't think anyone would disagree with you, but the lengthy discussion that we've had this morning is about the processes and about having to come to those priorities, making those very difficult decisions. The underlying element, of course, is the points that Liz made on repayment for the borrowing for these monies, and it's difficult, and what you say is right about the school. But I think in new submissions you did say that every school would argue it, and therein lies the huge conundrum at the heart of making these decisions. I kind of think it's a good point, but God you made it, I think I could look to the lead officer and the lead member. I think you would probably say what you said already. So I don't think there's any need for you to come in, but Paulie, thanks, thanks for that. I've got Merv and then you, time's ticking away so. Thank you, Chair. I'll keep you brief. Can officers clarify the spend in the denvy area regarding the school. I believe it's approximately two million just under on, and has this been spent on the site tape on different, if you add all the costs up. Can you confirm where this two million has come from, more importantly, is it, to be able to cancel money, or is it was government money that we've already spent, has it been spent has been paid, where's it come from. And I feel that the lack of adequate engagement with them be mags could still hold back the development of them be schools as a risk there, haven't been considered, you know, and I go back to support these I was going to say more on, you know, then there's an area of deprivation at the top of town there. They've been doing some work outside the Scott Pendere for ages on the road. I don't know what they're trying to do when they're trying to make it look like an area of deprivation or what, but they're doing a damn good job of it at the moment because they've been there for ages we've been around there with mags for a long time, trying to get it fixed and it still happened. I'll leave it like that, it's just a question on the funding, roughly the amount just under two million, where's it come from, which budgets are coming from. Word of the day success questions there so very specifically questions on funding questions on on on engagement and again here what you're saying, Paul in a mark both said about about them being the impact there so funding and engagement. Thank you. Yeah, James is just firing up his, his machine here to get the, the figures but yes, you know with regards, every single project whether it's in education, or outside of education. You know, when it is when it is grand funded there, you know, there is an element of risk you've got to get it to be to the line to to be able to, you know, draw the funding down and this up is part of that. I can see James has got the paper up now so he'll be able to answer a bit more. Apologies the laptops frozen so I'm going to acknowledge you but the figures roughly and the weather list could correct me from wrong but I think the figure of 2 million probably refers to the overall costs across them be so that would include some of the kind of project initial or pen drive and also some of the work on Denby high school so the vast majority of that would have been a plus bond offering previously cabinet in April 22 I think from memory approved the business case this treated Caroline case with plus bond offering, and obviously the business cases as with all projects, it's a requirement for money to spend on design plans, you know architects plans so for plus bond offer and for instance we're at the stage where pre planning consultation was able to take place in September October have 2022 in terms of you know all projects and whether it be everything on we've done on them 21st entry schools or other projects across the authority. There is a need to spend on design works prior to planning need to have fully design schemes to submit to Welsh government to be able to draw down the funding. For memory I think at the moment the majority of the funding that would have been spent has been from Denvershire and generally once schemes have gone through the various business case stages that Welsh government then were able to draw down resources effectively what normally happens is that design costs will be used as much funding later on and the projects of that funding is effectively reclaimed back later on. And then there was a question on engagement related you want to come in on. No I've got the latest submission to Welsh government open and I concur with what James is saying so between the 1819 to 2324 in total the funding is about one and a half million of things don't not quite got to the two million stage. The majority of it is on plus broad different but that has been expenditure across all of the sites including the language and sites as well, but the most majority that's being funded by them be sure not by Welsh government. Thank you. Just come back I think there's about 500,000 spent into 2334 that should be added to that somewhere. You say this has come from Denvershire County Council budget is a showing in our budget figures that that's where it's gone. Well, I'll let you answer. It'll be in capital, it'll be in the capital plan that will be so it won't be in revenue being the capital plan. I was just, you know, I'm just going to say it, I was disappointed when we had the own meeting with Dembe mags in a scabonda friend and Nick was there, so you can stay for the whole meeting, but we stay there. How disappointed I was of how much money had been spent on the design had been done on this school in mother for an on site a that Dembe mags had no idea about what was happening there. Well you've raised the issue of engagement so let's address that. Yeah, that's fine. Yes, on on engagement, you know, I am going to disagree because I do think that, you know, compared to, you know, all the other projects that we have delivered that has been a high level of engagement. And, you know, obviously, you know, we might not agree with, you know, everybody might not agree with me, but you know, that, that is, that is my professional opinion when I compare the engagements in this project. In these projects compared to many of the others, you know, I do do think that, you know, engagement. Obviously there's always room to improve. You know, we never never sit back and say, you know, we've done it 100% we've cracked it. You know, if there are things, well, you know, there's always at the end of every project we do lessons learned. And, obviously, we put any actions in in place for future for future projects. Thanks, guys. Hugh, Jason, and just to pick a nickel up, actually, Bambi started included a Scott Diness brand and St. Bridget. So it has evolved since then. So we have taken two schools out from when the journey started. And I'm struggling with the rationale here, I'll be honest with you. Because what I'm, what I'm seeing is the, the, we're obviously committed up to nearly 1.5, 2 million, whatever we're already down the road. But we're actually looking at building a new school for the most modern school that we have. And albeit, there's a waiting list, which understands it has an impact across them, but I'm sure for those numbers, we could look at a different model to support that in the short term. Because we have the school in a Scott Pendre, I think was built in 1976. Is that right? About 50 years old? I'm not sure what them be is. But obviously, you know, you can't even have in Denby High, two children passing in a corridor because the corridors are so narrow. So there is a big, you know, the need. But I think what I'm coming from is that the two schools at Denby High in Pendre and actually more pupils. So I think maybe over 600 pupils between the two 113, Pendre probably probably 500 in Denby High. You also have an issue in Denby High, which in the past were children were going to riff in to have their education and not stay in Denby. But, you know, I'm not saying that's the building, but that may play a part. So, and this is that your rationale, but the biggest risk to this is that if the Bronte Dufferin planning application gets rejected at planning, you will not build a school during this administration. Because, well, if Bronte Dufferin goes through, it should be completed 2000 to 26. So therefore, there will be no new builds in this administration if planning is rejected because we can't, we can't appeal. So this is a massive risk. So we can potentially lose that funding for Scobron Dufferin, but we can not secure in a Scoben drive and Denby High at the same time. For me, we value per pupil, which is numbers, and I understand the additional learning needs issues as well, extras and understand all that. But what I'm saying is, I think the rationale should be based on the numbers of need and the more you haven't got, I think it's madness that you haven't got the buy-in of local members. You know, you're going to be up against it all the time, and I think that's really important. If you're going to go and do something large capital in their area, you need their support. You know, I think that's really important. So I just struggle with the rationale. I struggle with the risk as a bit of rolling the dice for me on this. And I would urge, you know, we've got 100 or pupils in Bronte Dufferin, where are we in Bronte Dufferin? They're under 33, which 60% of them come out to county. So I'm just asking them, Denbyshire pupil need per head would be a far better rationale, and not the fact that we're already down the road, where I'd like to make this which secure that we do get some something in Denby, not that we lose it all together. I mentioned a couple of times this morning, one could make that point on any capital project, any construction project for this education, whatever, but that point's been made. Do you want us to come in? If I can challenge back a bit, if that's okay with you. If we, if we, if we developed any project based on the number of pupils impacted, we wouldn't have built a Scottish Envair. If we, we wouldn't have built a skalkere gambling, and we wouldn't have built a skalpere, because they are, they are smaller schools in rural communities. That that possibly if the only consideration would have been pupil numbers, they wouldn't have had the investment there. The decision at, or the original decision at band B, that that was taken. It's around condition. Yes, it's around suitability. It's around capacity. It's around sufficiency. It's around demand. It brings, you know, everything in it. And I'm not, I'm not saying that, you know, sufficiency and demand. They are a factor, but they are not the only factor. There, there are, there are lots of considerations, and it's not purely just on. There's only 130 pupils in plasma and different with 16% say 20 pupils or so out of county. And so it only impacts a good, then Bishop students. That's not how we are expected to, to come to these decisions. Can I just come back on that just because I haven't really challenged, can I before and I would say that the rationale of those schools you, you, you name was because the Welsh in education was the factor that they were invested in. The Welsh language was a big factor in them. The Welsh language isn't part of this, these three assessments of these, these schools. So that, that for, I'm just saying that maybe the rationale needs to just be considered because we might lose. If, you know, I think the problem, the problem is, with the, with the planning, with the planning issue, is that you actually have normally going into a planning application and take care again, being a fan guide, the local members support, fully the Mac on board. This is not the case here. So I think it's right that there is a risk around the planning because you haven't got the whole Mac in support. I'll just leave. It's very challenging. Thanks you. There's no more hands up. So I'm going to go to lead member. You wanted to make a specific vote on that. And then we'll do you want to sum up and we'll go to the recommendation. Very briefly, really, that, that, you know, there's, there's an important difference with if we're going into comparisons with pupils at Pendra and then be high, and the ones who are in a school plus Bron Dufferin waiting for places in a school plus Bron Dufferin and will be in the pipeline for places in the school plus Bron Dufferin is that those children have school places. And it's not really comparable with meeting a need with what we're doing by looking at the places that will be needed. Although the buildings, of course, are important, those children are already in really good schools with really good teaching and learning that is meeting their needs that the children who we're looking at for a school plus Bron Dufferin are looking at that not being possible for them. So that, to me, is, is, you know, an important difference. And, and as Gary says, you know, if we did it on number of pupils, half of our village schools would probably be shot, quite honestly, you know, it's, it's other places have made decisions like that. We look at things much more in the round. So that would be my take on that point. We'll go to the recommendations. So Jill, do you want to sum up the recommendation? So the recommendations are in 3.1 that the draft strategic outline program for the sustainable communities for learning program has contained an appendix one be submitted to the Welsh government for their consideration. 3.2 that the cabinet confirms that has read, understood and taken account of the wellbeing impact assessment in appendix three as part of its consideration. And yeah, so, so complete the recommendations. Excuse me. I thought there was another page. This one goes by Councillor Matthew seconded and he's will go for the vote. So those in favor of the recommendations. Okay, so we're just looking at when on the screen there. Yeah. Okay. And so those against. It's so the recommendations are passed. Thanks everyone. Thank you. I was just about to suggest that we will come back a short one. We'll come back at 20 past. So we are with the medium term financial plan. And with Gwyneth and Les, Gwyneth, do you want to introduce or do you want to go straight to this? Okay. Thank you very much later. So this budget report. In this cabinet meeting, it's different to the wishable one. We're looking at the financial strategy and plan for the medium term. And we're also looking what happened in 2024 25. I would like to thank Liz because a great deal of work has gone into this report. And your team as well. Of course. So this report includes a great deal of a detail. The highlights to look out for. In the summary of 2024 25. We're looking at the savings that we've planned for next year. And how we're going to track those savings and monitor what's happening. I think that's vital because of the situation that we're in, which is unprecedented. So it's vitally important. And we are developing tracking and monitoring strategies that are new. So this will be new to the finance team, but it will also be new to us as cabinet. And it's essential that we as a cabinet are able to track and monitor and have confidence that the savings that we're going to be making do happen and do work. On top of that, there's a report about the medium term plan 2025 to 2028. And what you'll see here is that there's a major challenge facing us as we move forward. This isn't a situation for one year where we've got a crisis this year, and then we return to business as usual next year. It's likely to be an ongoing crisis as well. Continue for at least another two years, possibly three. You can see what we're looking at in the medium term planning is even if there was a major increase in council tax again next year, we would still be facing major gap between our funding and our costs. And another report that lives has taken a great deal of time to produce is the report on financial sustainability. This is something that the audit and governance committee has asked for. And again, a great deal of work has gone into this to look at whether we are meeting the questions and answering the questions asked by. And that's about financial management. And there are a few business cases for the improvements of some schools. These are all cases which don't evolve cost to us, but we need to agree. So that's a quick summary. And I'll ask Liz to give you the details now. Thank you very much. Thank you, that summarizes really well. Thank you. There's nine appendices in total. So my proposal was just to talk briefly through the appendices that you've got in front of you. So, appendices one and two are to do with the 2425 budget setting. And appendix one summarizes 2425 budget and updates on the final spending settlement that we received from Welsh government. And on the few work streams that we had that hadn't concluded at the time that the budget was set. So primarily the voluntary exit schemes and an update on the 3 million target savings that each had a service was issued with. And then as Gwyneth has already mentioned also in appendix two there we've got the draft and savings tracker. That's the, you know, this tracking process will need to evolve. There's a lot of information there. And that will become part and parcel of what we report to you as cabinets regularly. So any comments or feedback on that we can, you know, we can adapt and we can amend that. But we will also be taking this report through governance and audit committee tomorrow for their comments and feedback and to bring that back back to cabinet. So for now we've kept the three categories as per as the budget was set. So for members to be familiar and for those members of the public that are following this so they can follow that through. But that will need to evolve throughout the year to ensure that it's focused and that it's adding value. There's no point in tracking a saving that's been achieved in month one throughout the remaining 12 months of the year will need to focus. Then in appendices three and four, we move to look at the medium term. And this is a high level, um, budget projection and I think it's really important to stress the uncertainty around these projections at this point. You know, we are talking about April 25, 26 with some way away from that. So things will change, but it's important we understand the scale of the issue. And so the figures are estimates and they're uncertain. And of course, you know, there's, there's less reliance on the later on in that medium term forecast so 2526 is dependent on 2425. But this all covers up to 2728, which will be less certain. So it's important. We, we, we know that we've included a range of assumptions low, medium and high like we did last year. And that just demonstrates the level of uncertainty and the more work that will need to be done to refine these figures. So this will be a report that we will bring regularly to cabinet throughout this format throughout this year as the figures develop. So the pressures in the medium term range between 15 million and 27 million in 2526 and this of a similar figure for the next two financial years, and that mid range is around 2021 million. And what's particularly challenging for 2526 is around the level of funding from, from governments. And we have no indication of what that funding is likely to be, which is different to where we've been in the past two years. We have had indicative funding settlements from Welsh governments. We, we await a UK government spending review, which will in turn then to turn into to future funding settlements, but we don't have that information. So what's been used at the moment is the information from the Wales fiscal analysis in the absence of anything else. And that indicates that there's this, they might not be any additional funds coming through the settlement. If anything, it could be slightly less and that's, that's the reason for 2526 looking as challenging as it is it does or part of the reason. The pressures and the settlements, the assumptions around council tax the ranges that have been included in their range of between council tax, the lower end of 6% and at the higher end of 12% and the mid range is 9%. I think it's important to, to state what the assumptions around those those figures are. And what that, what the NTFP demonstrates there is how the cost of delivering the same level of service is forecast to rise. So the, the mid case, 21 million, the cost of delivering services in 2526 compared to 24, 20, 25. So without additional funding from government, councils will have to raise council tax and reduce costs of delivering services or reduce services. Noting that council tax increase only covers roughly a quarter of the funding that we receive 75% of our funding comes from government. The remaining 25% is what comes from council tax. So the appendix for is the, the medium term financial strategy that outlines the approach to managing finances and balancing budget over the next three years. That is something that again that will need to develop and will evolve over the next 12 months. So this report, as I said, will go to governance and audit committee, there's also a role for scrutiny in scrutinizing the executive decisions. So we will also be discussing that with the chairs and vice chairs of scrutiny in the next month. And the governance and audit committee at the January meeting asked for a stress test and a review of the budget process and that's what's in appendix five. And that's been completed by not only myself, but also the chief executive and the monitoring officer statutory officers. And then finally then in appendices six to nine. We do require the formal sign off from cabinet of four projects at schools that are fully funded by grants that need to be submitted for for business cases to Welsh government. They have all been approved by the capital scrutiny group. Thank you. And just before we go on. I'm, I'm, I'm probably being incredibly over cautious. And I did declare an interest earlier and I was mindful of that prejudicial interest to declare. We're asked to. In the recommendations to approve the design phase for a building up a school of police in my background and a joins a school of police. So, you know, the cautious and declare that as a personal interest on carries advice. Okay. So, thanks ladies. It's incredibly important document that that's there. Outlining the huge pressures were under our addressing those the process for scrutiny as well. So, I'll open it up for debate if anyone got any questions on the plan. Okay. I'm looking at the screen. And. In put those in person. No, I mean, as a cabinet, we've discussed it at length, cabinet, cabinet briefings. It's a public document. Julie. Nothing to do with the actual figures, but I've just welcomed the actual, the, the appendix for actually and the strategy and the communication strategy. I think that's really going to be very important moving forward that, you know, we start the process earlier, make sure all members are involved in, in, in what's happening and keeping them aggressive. The situation. So, thank you very much for that list. Thanks. Thank you, Julie. Any other comments? We have as this, as part of this process on budget discussed transformational change. And how we're going to have to think radically different as to how we deliver services. And those are conversations which we're having at the moment. And on the point of wider member engagement. I think there's a workshop in a few weeks on that. And we're very much on the ground level altogether on that. So that's an opportunity really for all of us cabinet backbenchers and all members to have those conversations around transformational change, whether that's use of AR. Regional working. Collaboration on particular projects, strategic. Alliances with the local authorities, everything's on the table. There's an opportunity for all members to engage in that thought process as to how in these incredibly challenging times we deliver those public services that are valued. Okay. Gwyneth. If I just sort of bring everyone's attention to appendix to the savings tracker. So, I mean, as Liz said, that's something that will be, you know, it will become part of the regular reporting to cabinet. So lead members should be really aware of what's on that. And, you know, if anything is not achieving the targets, we need to know why and what we do about it and so on. And so just, I really wanted to, that's, that's new. So I thought it's worth some special attention. Okay. Thanks, Gwyneth. Thanks for pointing that out. Okay. I can't see any more hands up and no one on the screen. So the, the record, this, this isn't the usually, as you said in your opening remark, this isn't the usual monthly update. Mid-term financial strategy plan, plan around resilience. But there is a recommendation that we note that and under the building project. So recommendations I'll hand over to yourself, Gwyneth. Thank you, Jason. So there are two recommendations here. First of all, that cabinet considers approves and provides feedback on the updates listed in 2.1 above. And secondly, that cabinet approves the commencement of the design phase for the Escalbro L when a school henshan, a school broken measure and a scholarship projects to enable the full business case to be submitted to Welsh given for approval, as detailed in section 4.7 and dependencies 6 to 9. Thank you. So there's one that we set the recommendation proposed by Gwyneth Alice, any, since I'm on 2nd, Julie, so in favor, accepting the recommendations. Okay. Thank you. So we'll move on to the cabinet forward work program. Thank you, I'll do this one whilst. There's just one change to the work program since the papers were published, which is one additional item in September. And that's a report on the local area energy plan for the membership for cabinet to approve. Thank you. Thank you. No comments. We'll finish that item and we'll draw the meeting to a conclusion.