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Good morning, everyone, and thank you for allowing me to continue in this role for another year. This will make 12 years doing this, so it's getting on a bit, isn't it? Thank you to those who are here. Jackie and I were slightly alarmed yesterday when we were looking at numbers, so I'm going to do a mild rant at the beginning, but it's actually not directed at anybody in the room, because you're all here. But I am concerned that we're having decreasing numbers of members. It's not helped by the fact, I think the date was changed, wasn't it, because we're normally on a Tuesday, no? Yeah, the dates keep being changed. I think we got dumped at the cabinet or something this time. Yes, I don't know. I mean, that does make it hard. It really doesn't help, no, but unfortunately, that's not in our control. But I'm just mindful of the work that goes into preparing for these meetings. Sorry? Possibly, but even so. Anyway, let us crack on with the agenda, and we need to elect a vice chairman next. So, do I have any nominations for vice chair? And I am happy for the chair to nominate Councillor Jackie Lay to continue for another year. Is that a second? Are there any other nominations? I'm stuck with you for another year then, Jackie. I mean, congratulations. Thank you, John. And can I just say that we're all back to front on the... So if we could be round the right way. John, you could say she's stuck with you. I told Max I wanted to have my better side on the screen. It's always a pleasure to work with you, and I've been vice chair of this committee for longer than I can remember. You have? Even longer than you've been chair. You have, yes. Right. Apologies. Well, this is what's going to make the meeting late, isn't it? So, who do we have? Where's Max? Oh, he's turning us the right way round. I'll make a 2-star win pass. Apologies. So, we have apologies from Councillor Joe Trigg who is going to be substituted by Councillor Trevor Carvin, although unfortunately he gives his apologies for running late. And apologies from Councillor Catherine McDermott, Councillor Mark Fabinen, Councillor Bridget Weyman, Councillor Peter Hutton, Councillor Mike Sankey and Dr Mike Thompson. Thank you. I am aware that Catherine had organised the replacement, but then he pulled out at the last minute. Can I also say that I did talk to Antonio Piazzo yesterday, and he also apologises. And Councillor Helen Belcher, yesterday was coming, but her son got taken into hospital last night, so she's dealing with that, which is, even in my books, a bearable excuse. OK. Minutes of the previous meeting, so those have been distributed. Did anybody see anything to get excited about? Jackie? Only one comment is that Councillor Suzanne Wickham was put down as being present as a member of the committee, whereas she should be probably also present, rather than... You are quite right. And we will make sure that that is changed. Subject to that change, is everybody happy that these are to an accurate record? Thank you. I will sign after the meeting. So, declarations of interest. Anybody see anything interesting? Nope? Good. Chairman's announcement. We do have an addition to our agenda tonight, and you may have noticed it tonight. I'm just planning the meeting ahead. You may have noticed it as a procedural document on pages nine and ten. What this is a list of standard scrutiny questions that can be applied to almost any topic that a Scrutity Committee might encounter. And it's going to be included from now on, for members' reference, in all overview and scrutiny agendas. I do invite you to - I'm reading a script here - I do invite you to make use of the document and hope it will prompt some questions that we might otherwise not have thought of. If you think the list is missing something, do contact a member of the scrutiny team, and we will be glad to add further questions in. What I would say is, I don't think actually as a committee we normally have problems with asking good quality questions. And please, please, please don't feel obliged that on every item we cover, somebody needs to ask every question that's on that crib list. They are there designed to provoke thought, not to be a script that we have to work through verbosely. Max, any public participation? Not that we're all - no, okay. In which case, we come to our first report from Lucianne Bryant on - hello, Lucianne - on child care sufficiency in Wiltshire. I think it's important to bear in mind this is a lighter report as it's only an update, and we had a full update last year in October, and we'll no doubt be getting one again in due course. So, Lucianne. Thank you very much. As I said, a brief update, to excuse my voice please, on child care sufficiency across Wiltshire. So, we have concerns about whether or not there is sufficient places. The government is funding now, in order to help us expand our two-year-old places, and for wraparound, and then for under two's places. So, that has now started, which is what this report tells you. So, that funding that's come in for the expanded child care offer, at point eight, which is the £885,000 worth of capital funding. And we've started to develop places, and it shows you on the table, on page two, that where those places are currently being developed. So, we went out to an expression of interest, asked providers if they would like to expand their provision, and so far we have agreed to fund those that are listed here, creating 102 new places, which is really good for Wiltshire. We'd be pleased to see, John, there is some in Melksham. And we are still continuing through that expression of interest process, so we're looking at where we need it. Obviously, our big concern has always been around staffing, and there are, we've got the team of assistant commissioners that we have funded through this government funding, to go to recruitment fairs, to be part of job fairs, to be regularly now at the job centre, and then talking with job centre colleagues and with people coming through the job centre about the opportunity. So, hopefully that will help to stimulate the market there, and increase interest in child care. We have got the Canberra Children's Centre, which will be used again in Melksham, to increase the number of child care places there, and that's gone out to tender currently. So, we're looking, we've got quite a lot of interest, had 10 providers interested, so it looks like we should get some more child care available there. And then on to wraparound, and wraparound care is the eight to six offer that the government is funding, and we sent out a survey, which we're very excited, had 2,269 responses, which is a really, really good turnaround, of which 55% said they wanted wraparound care. So, that's our big push now, doing a delivery plan for the DfE, we are then speaking with the schools and the providers to see where we can locate that provision, and ensure that it meets the demand, and continues to be sustainable. And then we have an earlier strategy, which I think is going to the POB this month, which is just its final point, so that we're going to go out raising the profile of early years. So, we are getting to a better place, I think, with our child care, with having a bigger team being able to go out and support the settings and schools, we can stimulate that growth, and specifically now this opportunity to work with job centres, and the providers around getting people at Wiltshire College specifically, getting youngsters interested in child care. Okay, thank you. Thank you very much. Questions, Jackie? Got quite a long list. This is my list, let alone, I think John's got a list too. So, first of all, I just wondered, you've got the numbers down, as to what is available, and I just wondered whether it would be useful to know the capacity of what each setting is, because, just because you've got, sorry, my computer doesn't do what my other one used to do, you've got the numbers registered, but some of these places may have capacity to take more, but why aren't they, potentially because they haven't got the staff. So, that would be useful to know. And that's in point six, is it, so that's what you're? Well, it's on point three, where you've got your off-stead registered providers, so we know how many providers we got, but we don't know what their capacity is. And that's in point six, then, so we say there's 8,027 child care places available in group settings, and 912 available with child mind doing it. Right, so do we know then how many are taken up of that? It would be useful to have it together. Okay, and that would be in the full report. You mentioned about Perton, that actually was a replacement, rather than an additional, so one closed down and somebody else took over. Yeah, that's why it's all, yep. You've got on paragraph nine, Westbury's listed twice, I didn't know if that was a mistake. I suppose that was two different provisions in Westbury. Two different provisions, okay. Easy, isn't it? Right, okay. I think the first one was, yes, the number of places are listed there, and that will come in the full report, and the take-up of that, and what capacity there is, and what is the unused capacity in October. The, yes, Perton is a replacement provision, but that was trying to say that there was a difference between 260 and 256, so although some were closed, some had opened, and yes, Perton was a replacement within that, so I acknowledge that. And the point, yes, about Westbury, that's two different providers in Westbury who are expanding, so I didn't name the providers, I just put the community area. I just seek your clarity on that first question that Jackie asked, because it was something we talked about yesterday, and Jackie may understand the answer, but I didn't, which is that the point that I heard Jackie making yesterday was that we could have a provision that had the infrastructure to support, say, 40 children within it, but only a staffing capacity that would support, say, 15. So when you talk about the, we've got a capacity of 8,027 childcare places available, does that mean 8,027 places that we know... We have got staff. We've got staff for all 8,027 places that we have the infrastructure. That was the ones we have staff for, so that's the available places. All right. Thank you. That's right. You're welcome. So would it be useful to know what the capacity could be? Yep, absolutely. We can, so we've got that, and we have that in the full report. Okay. Thirteen, paragraph thirteen, we're on page 20 for everyone else. The situation in Malborough's been monitored, and there is currently sufficient provision, so quite useful to know what happened there, because there apparently was a problem before. Yes, and basically the current providers are providing sufficient places, and the issue, it was obviously part of a falling birth rate there. There isn't as big an issue this year as there was in October, so we are monitoring that to see whether we need to develop anything else there, because we would have said we needed to, but with that slight drop, we're now just monitoring it. Okay, paragraph ten talks about Westbury, well, Bradford Avon, Meltsham, Marlborough, Westbury, that we now got sufficiency, that the needs have been addressed in Meltsham and Westbury. And then later on, we're talking about this additional 42. So is that going to be over of what we need? Because the trouble is, is that if we go from more places than we need, then that causes problems to existing providers who might then not be able to get enough children to be viable. No, that is, we were at something like 90% in Meltsham, so this creates sufficient places there, and also Meltsham is one of the few places where the birth rate is continuing to grow, so actually it's a growing number of under fives in Meltsham, so we want to make sure we can meet the supply for all of those. Paragraphs 15 and 16, I picked up on about, really is how do we address the issue about the lack of staff, the salaries, and more to the point, transport, because these young people who might be going into childcare would be great, but some of them then can't get to somewhere where they need to work. So how do we deal with that? I had a look at the website working in early years, and you can put in your postcode to see how many jobs there are, and there's nine jobs close to me, but they're all in Swindon, and 24 early years jobs across the county. I can't believe that's correct. So how are we going to encourage our outlets to use that website to register their jobs, so that people know one place? Absolutely. So we are working with our, so the new assistant commissioners are out talking to the providers to advise them. It's gone out in newsletters, but we're then pushing that as a form, because obviously it's a free advertising, so it's really important they use that, because then that pulls through on all data, so that people, it's more available, more widely available using that website, so we want to promote that, so we are doing that piece of work with our providers currently. As I said, also, then we are working with the job centres as well now more regularly, which we haven't had the opportunity to do before, so hopefully we can stimulate that interest in childcare. And the last one from me, John will be pleased about, is it sort of crosses my mind, when my daughter, who works in, runs a nursery in Swindon, when she says, Oh, I'm short of staff, and I don't know what to do, I think of all these older ladies who have gone through with children, and I feel like saying, Well, perhaps I could come and help you. And of course, I can't, because I haven't been DBSed and all the rest. Are we looking at how we bring in this valuable resource of older people, who might be able to help out at these nurseries when they've got a shortage of staff, even if it's just as additional people, rather than a room? No, that is, again, something else that we consider, not just older people, obviously older, people like child-minders who have retired, who might want to come back into it, so we're looking at how you can then re-engage the interest into the childcare sector and get people to want to participate and be part of it. That's part of the work that the new commissioners will be doing and linking with the government. And it's interesting that you talked about transport, but getting to a site, because that's something we've raised with DFE, the fact that in a rural county, they were giving this £1000 golden hello to people working in early years, it didn't come to Wiltshire, it came to other authorities, and we said as a rural authority, that would be quite an interesting test to see whether that helped people to buy a car or to get to work, because that could be the barrier, and so we've taken that back to them, and again, it's something that's been considered by DFE to expanding that offer, so that might be another way of getting people interested into early years. Anybody else? Kevin. Thank you. My interest here is in the wraparound care and childcare, and I wonder what age group this relates to. All primary school-aged children should be able to access a wraparound care place if their parents need it. Thank you. So I think there are certainly some schools, there is only one in particular I'm aware of, I won't mention any names, it would be unfair, where that provision has not been put in place, was in place and then was withdrawn, and it actually is leading to some requests for in-year transfers for the schools, simply because they need that care. I mean, many parents, perhaps professionals themselves, maybe teachers, police officers, whoever, they cannot choose their working hours, and it's really important that those are taken care of. Absolutely, and that's what we're aware, so obviously part of our survey went out and there are some schools who have got a considerable number of responses, so we are going to those schools first to say what is it that we need to do to work with you to put this provision in. We know one school, for instance, did offer out-of-school care and has now reduced that down, so we are going straight back to them and saying, right, what can we do to stimulate the growth and to make this available for parents. And that is, that's our two-year project, we should have, it's meant to be up and running, all of it, across the county by September next year, and so we've got events taking place for providers and for schools for them to find out about the funding. There is pump priming so that schools can buy resources, can fund the staff until they get enough people, parents, using the provision. Okay, thank you. You're welcome. Can you, I was going to say, can you mention about the nine months? Yeah, yeah. Yep. There's a back-up 19. So the work includes an early-year strategy which has been developed and the development of the local childcare provider market and early-year strategy and the development of the childcare, no, I say that's correct. That's because probably on the one I'm reading, I've corrected it. Thank you, John. Yes, this should be an and. The Paragraphs and the Cs, the Paragraphs and the Cs and the Paragraphs and the Cs, are they really going to be in the middle of three years of business? Yeah, it is. How long does it take to put it down a meaningful way from the funding and the Cs? They're funded for two years, they're a fixed-term two-year contract, yeah, so it should see us through to the development of the places that we need to create. Okay. (Inaudible) That's correct. (Inaudible) That's correct. So the settings will be paying that £342.18 is contributions from the settings to the development of places and we will be funding, from the government funding, £342,338. So the total will be the 694. Yeah, all together to create those places. Beautiful, thank you very much indeed. Page 20, paragraph 11, when do you anticipate the Section 106 funding in Barfield-Avon to translate into actual places? We are asking them to get them created for January. And do we know how many? 24. 24. Lovely. There's also actually there, there's Limpley Stoke, I don't know if you know but Limpley Stoke, there's an old pub out on the A36, they're also creating a nursery there, which will help that supply in Barfield-Avon. And I think logic gives me an answer to this one, but I've long learned in local authorities that logic doesn't always apply, so I just want to check. Paragraph 20, the clarification on the expansive provision into Melkham. The table says we've got 18 additional places coming into Melkham. The explanatory text says that the Canberra Children's Centre will offer 42 places. The total 8 for Melkham in point 9 is the places that are related to that £342,000 worth of funding, that's the ones there. Canberra is an additional point, there'll be another 42 places on top of those 18 in Melkham. So 60 places in total. Right, ok. How is the sufficiency issue in Marlborough addressed? Pardon? The sufficiency issue that was in Marlborough, I think Jackie highlighted it earlier, it says in the report it's now fine. Yes. How was it addressed or was it just that it worked itself out? It just worked itself out, so as I said we were looking to create more places in Marlborough because we had a high uptake of places, but when we look at it this year there isn't such a high uptake of places, therefore what is currently in Marlborough is sufficient at the moment. But we need to monitor it, looking at birth rate to make sure that we aren't going to end up with a crisis coming at some point in the future. So it's being monitored to make sure that we are managing that in Marlborough. Ok. And then I think just two generic points at the end as opposed to questions. The first one is the wrap around childcare, this is clearly going to be a significant piece of work. Yes. My heart goes out to you of what I think is going to be involved in making this happen. But can we assume that the report that will come to us later in the year as your annual report will give a lot more detail about where we are on that and what's happening. Yes, it will. And sufficiency of places. Yes, so where we are now with that is we're just doing the delivery plan to send back to the DFE. So we have just gone through the entire county, looked at how many places are required, what people are asking for. So it's too soon now to put that into a report, but that October report will have all that detail in it. Brilliant. Thank you. And then lastly, and Jackie I think quite rightly is raising this point about recruitment. And I think that it would be helpful if in the next report we could get some more clarity on exactly how commissioners are working with providers to sort of address the recruitment issues, and really look at how we can stress there's a career here, not just a job, which I think is the big difference that we need to get through. Absolutely. And somehow address because I think the point of the infrastructure capacity and what we can deliver capacity is quite frightening. It absolutely is. And that is one of our big focuses. Now that we can get into the job center regularly, now that we've got capacity within our staff team, we can actually start doing that piece of work, which we haven't been able to do for the last couple of years. So it's going to be making it hopefully a significant difference to how we stimulate interest into early years and as a career path as well. Go on Jackie, you've clearly seen you've missed something. Yeah, well, two things. One was about obviously September 24 we've got the nine month coming in. And that's going to cause a lot of pressures because, you know, the general public don't realize that the nurseries don't have capacity to take these nine month olds. So we've got to get that message out to make sure that, you know, the nurseries have able to take them. But the other thing is, is that all of this is a lot of work for you. And for us, the council, have we got the capacity to deal with all of this? And what's the impact on us dealing with all the support that we give to nurseries? Because obviously, the more work that comes our way, the more of you we need. Yes. So we have again, got the funding from the DfE, which has enabled us to increase our team size. We work as smart as we can doing this, and we will constantly review it. The nine month, children starting sorry for nine months old in September, a lot of those will be conversions of existing children who are already in childcare. So those children already in there. So we're looking to grow places from March next year because we know that's when we will start hitting at the moment there is sufficient there for them to manage. So we are working very, very closely. We monitor it all the time. We have conversations. Just not just me, but also Emma Cook, who does the quality. So we make sure that there are sufficient places. What can we do to grow it? And that's why we've got the numbers that we've got. So the expressions of interest have gone out. Those that want to develop them can. They say they can staff those places. The exciting thing is we've got new providers who want to come into Wiltshire. So we've got three brand new providers who want to expand into Wiltshire. So that's really, really exciting. So it means that there is the opportunity there and that people think there is a future in childcare. So we will keep using that emphasis to to work with the younger people. Thank you for a half time report that was quite extensive, actually. Thank you very much for that. I think some possible recommendations that we could take from there and move forward with is, obviously, to receive the annual report in November. And to us that includes the usual information and and being the key bit specific update on actions taken to address sufficiency concerns that have been highlighted in the various towns. Impact of officers attending careers fairs and working with the job centre and linking with supporting families and employment advisors. To write about this story of a career in childcare, a baby to look how we can link this with any available analysis of the DFA stuff that's coming through, specifically from their website, their national advertising campaign, development or implementation of Wiltshire College's offering your step into early years as a starter course. Successive sector based workplace programs such as swap the plan with the job centre and family and community learning. Obviously wrap around childcare we've just talked about yet and and the health commissioners work with organisations to support on recruitment issues and retention concerns. Yeah, and if all are on one side of eight four, please. Everybody happy with that? Yep, lovely. Thank you very much. Indeed. So we move on on the agenda to the outcome of the rapid scrutiny on emotional wellbeing and mental health strategy. So this is receiving a report on the outcome of the Rapid Scrutiny on Wiltshire Council's emotional wellbeing and mental health strategy. Now, I was the lead member for this joint exercise with the Health Select Committee. So I'll just open the item with some key points from our report. As a strategy, it seems to address some of the concerns, but it remained of interest to us to see how this would be implemented, which led us to the recommendations that we made. To be fair, the recommendations are probably the most efficient way for me to summarise our work, and I'll happily take questions on these. You've all had the report, you've all had a chance to read the recommendations, so I don't think I need to read through them all. But I'm happy to take any questions if anyone has any. Becky. I do like to let everybody else put their hands up first. But anyway, when I read your report, you were talking about there's 980,000 people in the Baines, Swindon, Wiltshire area who's affected with mental health. And of that number, there's 9,847 children. I was really ignoring you for a moment as I clarified something with Julie, and as I was reading it, it felt wrong. It's not Wiltshire Council's strategy, it's the ICB's strategy on the children's mental health. So it's not just children's mental health strategies. ICB's, not Wiltshire Council's. No, but it's Baines, Swindon and Wiltshire. So we've got 980,000 people, 9,847 children who are accessing support, and the target eventually will be 14,115. But do we know what the actual numbers are going to be of young people? Because there must be a raft of children out there who are missing this process. Is there a known number? Or I know it's probably difficult to know what we don't know. But are we satisfied that 14,000 as the target is going to basically support all the children that need support? Or do we need to know a bit more about where the missing numbers are? I think the, I mean, I'm looking at Lucy to an extent on this as chair of the ICB. Or co-chair or vice-chair of something? You were, weren't you? You're important on the ICB, I know that. Chair of the ICA. I see, there you are. Both A, B, C, D... Both chair of the ICB have been really very important. But, I mean, to my knowledge, Jackie, because of course, you know, we did one rapid scrutiny on this. These are the numbers that are coming through from the work that the ICB has done. One of the things you'll see in what we talked about was we think there needs to be a lot more looking at early help, because frankly, looking just at the numbers when they've hit crisis point actually isn't helpful. We need to be looking at them at a much earlier stage, which is one of the points that the task group was making. It's impossible, of course, to say what those numbers will be, because I don't think that at the moment there is a methodology of collecting that data that's out there, that could be presented. So, I think what we've got to work with is the best numbers the ICB can give us, but recognise that what they're talking about is at that higher level of need, really, rather than the... Did I say anything wrong there, Lucy? No. I mean, I think it's, you know, fair to say we all want good emotional and mental health. So, it's about capturing all of that. So, from prevention right through to where there is a need for a level of intervention, and the strategies should be capturing all. So, these figures are more targeted at those, require something more significant, but we would, you know, through the schools, et cetera, we want all children to kind of have access so that their mental health is, you know, well, acknowledging that people's mental health dips at certain times, but it doesn't mean that it requires necessarily a specialist intervention. And, obviously, there is a timeline that you've looked at as part of this scrutiny, and I think, you know, the recommendations are clear on us following that timeline and continuing to work. Jem was at the Children Young People's Programme Board yesterday, and they were sharing this information and the plans as you've described here, really. I know that doesn't answer your question, Jacqui, but does it give you enough of an answer for you to… Yes, but I was just thinking that it's something that we need to really be watching, because if that 14,000 target is completely under what it actually is, it's a worry. But I noticed further on in our agenda we're talking about mental health in the schools, and that's where potentially we need to be picking up whether there is a bigger issue than we actually know. Anyone else? Just referring to number nine, the range of partners, are there any contract renewals coming up that might, you know, interrupt this process of helping? Yes, I think we are in the period of looking at the contract with… is it AWS? Not AWS, the… sorry? AWP. AWP, sorry. Is it AW… there is a contract which is part of what this strategy is about, isn't it? It's about how the new, the new… Yeah, I can't remember the exact timeline on the AWP contract. But AWP is Avon and Wiltshire Partnership, who are the mental health provider for us in Wiltshire, but they're huge, they cover a really big patch, they go right into Bristol, etc. And whilst the RICB commission them, the lead commissioner sits, I think it is Bristol, BSSNG, but obviously we have colleagues in health who are linked into that. And yes, I think the driver, you're right, Jon, was around, is what is being delivered by AWP what is required for the future. Does that answer your question, Carol? Yep, that will do. Happy to please. I mean, I think the key thing to draw from this is the fact that what the rapid scrutiny group said was this is a good start, but there is actually more work to do. And, you know, our recommendation, as you can see, is that actually we do have another session to look at the delivery plan and look at how this can be delivered and brought in. All happy? Okay. So, yes, I mean, I think it's fair to say there is quite a lot, and rightly so, work going on for the committee with regards to mental health. And we'll continue with Health Select Committee on this one, but we've also got our own task group on looking much more at children's mental health and early intervention work, that I know that we will be getting that task group up and running in due course. So, right now, to what I'd like to be a bit more of a conversation than normally is, if possible, although there's a reduced number here for the conversation. But the Children's Select Committee areas of interest and work for the next 12 months. We've brought this forward a little bit on the agenda, because normally the forward work plans at the end and everyone nods, saying please let me go home. But we met with the executive, we talked about items that they felt we'd be able to add value on. Jackie and I talked about items that we felt, either ourselves or that have been given to us by members of the committee, that we would like to see involved in our work. And you've obviously got the reports before you that I'm going to assume everybody has read. But what I would like to do is just run through the work programmes and identify where we're happy, or if we've got any questions about the items that are in there. One of the things I would say is that in putting this together, Jackie and I were mindful of the fact that we are entering the fourth year of this council. So, what we do try to do in the final year of a council is not undertake too much business that would be ongoing to future councils or the next council. So, to set up a task group that starts in January and is going to meet five times is a bit pointless, because it will have met once or twice, and then potentially it would have such a change in membership following the May elections, that it wouldn't be able to conclude its work, it would have to be starting from scratch. So, we've tried to do something where we can draw as much of our work to a conclusion or to a point where we're making recommendations for whoever and whatever comes next. So, there may be a couple of things where it's not as in-depth as perhaps we would have liked, but we're just trying to be realistic. But saying that, the whole purpose of bringing it to this point in the agenda is I really would like to sit a conversation on it, rather than us just saying, Here's your forward work plan for the next year. So, with regards to the agenda items for the committees, which I think you can find. I'm trying to find the page number that's on. What page is that on? Or is it in the supplement? It is in the supplement. That's why I couldn't find it in the... Pages 3 to 32. So, I imagine page 3 is a very good place to start, isn't it? Yes. So, this identifies the standing items that we have in each of our meetings, but if you go over to the following pages, you'll see that we're talking about the substantive items that we're suggesting come to committee and come to be discussed with our hoped-for timeline on them all. And the items that have got highlighted in blue, or if you're going to print out grey, are actually the ones that came to us from the executive asking if we could look at those topics. So, any questions? Oh yes, the date that we're here then. Any questions, first of all, on any of those topics? Did anybody see a topic there, that they are wondering why we're doing that, or a topic there where they're saying, or a topic that is not there that they would like to have seen there? Thanks, John. I mean, this might not be the place, and it certainly probably is not for this coming year, but something that's been sort of on my mind all these last three years since I've been here, and it's about the way that we do business, perhaps. It seems that sometimes that there's hours, tens, even hundreds of hours of officer time spent doing things, and then it results in nothing, let's say. Specifically, let's say an individual's EHTP, and I can speak with some personal experience here. Multiple meetings with all sorts of professionals, could have been hundreds of hours of officer time, professional time, and then the outcome is there's no requirement. Which is I'm not questioning the judgement, but I'm just questioning why does it take so long and so much effort to get to some of these decisions. Is there not a way of being a bit more efficient about these things? What I'm going to suggest there is you're highlighting a great example of why, and we didn't do one today for all sorts of reasons, but subjects that we bring and have a briefing on. So quite often, normally before our meetings at 9.30 we have people, officers that come in to give us a briefing, because I'm sure Amanda can give you a thirty second answer to that now. But actually, no Amanda, sorry. Catherine, why did I call you Amanda? Early onset dementia, I'll be your problem soon, have a select committee. So Catherine could give you a thirty second answer to it, but actually more helpful would be if we did a sort of half hour briefing and we talked and all the bits around that. So that's hold that thought because we're going to be talking about briefings and topics for briefings. I didn't really mean that to be specific about the HCP, but it seems in general there's an awful lot of work that goes on behind the scenes to achieve an outcome. And it just seems inefficient. And I appreciate there's lots of detail that has to be worked through. And probably there isn't a shorter way, but it does seem that we spend a lot of our resources in just looking at things and questioning and not quite so much in doing and achieving outcomes. It's just a layman's sort of view from the outside really. No, and I cannot agree with you more, Calvin, and that's why I've certainly found over the years the briefings to be so helpful because they give them time for officers to be able to really take us through the process and help us. The bit that shocked me to the core as we've gone through a lot of this stuff is how many legislative loops need to be jumped through as we go through each of these things, and that a parent, I suppose quite rightly, but a parent can insist that a process is followed, whether you like it or not. And I think that we have had over the years, through these briefings, times when members have, in the briefings, asked questions about the process that have been taken on board and have helped perhaps streamline it to an extent. But also members come to realise that half the time the officers are as frustrated about the process as we are, but it's what has to happen. Lucy, come on. I wasn't going to refer specifically to the HCP because, as you said, you were just using that as an example, but is the point that you're making more around in terms of this committee and when we present things, that we focus on things rather than outcomes? And would it be helpful for us to be more specific in every single report to evidence what we feel the outcome is? Because whilst I accept there are processes and there are processes there for a reason, some of them are good, some of them not so good, it's about what is the impact of that? And if we're not explaining that well enough, then that's what we need to do going forward. Is that more to the point? Well, I don't think that's really challenging what you bring to this committee. It was more just what happens out there and in general how much resource and effort Wiltshire Council has to put in to achieve these things. And it does, to my mind, there's obviously very good reasons why, but it just seems like an awful lot of time and effort spent sometimes against what do we get for our money, if you like, what's the bang for the buck? That's really where I was coming from. I understand the point you're making, Kelvin, and I think we can look at how we can, in the briefing process, maybe expand on why we follow the route we do to do things. Because I get what you mean and I do think that there are some things that you look at. I mean, Laura, you'll remember when we first started the Safeguarding Task Group so many years ago and we were going through, we were learning the written screen and all of that and the work that had to be put in, the reports that had to be done, the legal processes that need to be followed over Section 17, Section 47, Section 22B, so on and so forth, for something to progress was mind numbing, wasn't it? Yes, it was. But I understand what Kelvin's saying is, the system, things seem to be very complex and you don't seem to get much out of it in simple terms, and part of that is a briefing to understand it, but also we're going to have our briefing on safety valve and a lot of that is looking at, in your particular instance, should you have even been put through that loop, would it have been easier if someone had quickly said, no, this will never get reached in the EHCP process but here's something we can do instead. And that's just an example of how, if we're looking at SEND, which is complex and even after 12 years I still really struggle with the system, is it right and that's the sort of work that we're doing for those exact reasons. But maybe a briefing would be good because there are legal things we have to do and parents have the right to say, I want to go through this process and what we're trying to do in this example is to say, hey, it may be better not to go through this process and if your child's struggling with reading, why don't we do this instead? Does that help? And the more we can do that latter, the better, not only for financial reasons but actually I believe for the child concerned as well. Anyone? Jackie. So going back to what we're looking at, have we got the capacity as a committee to do all of these things because obviously we've got things that are going to come to the committee's reports but the outcomes of some of these reports might be more scrutiny. So have we got the capacity in this committee to do all these things and are we going to be looking to take some of them off or put them forward as recommendations for the next council year to possibly take on if they could? That would be the – I mean there will be some work that we – as you know Jackie, because you've been involved in this as long as I have – there will be some work that we will do and the outcome of that work will be, here's a set of recommendations, thank you very much, move on. Sometimes you have that work and we say we'll come back and investigate it again in 12 months and see how it's doing which would clearly be a recommendation for the new council to do that. And sometimes you do a piece of work and the outcome of it is we need to do an awful lot more work. This year it's most likely that if we are coming up with conclusions that say we need to do an awful lot more work, what we're actually going to be doing is making recommendations to the next council that this is a piece of work they need to be looking into purely because we don't have the time to do an awful lot more work before then, unless of course there was something of urgency that came up and of course if there was something of urgency we would try to address that. But you're right to caution on the amount – we've got a very, very busy potential workload here and you're right to caution about. So is there something here that we need to be actually saying this is more important for us to deal with initially and in which case, what do committee members feel and what does the executive feel? That's why we're having this conversation. So you and I are feeling how the executive feel, we know, we had a meeting about that. Okay, and I don't want to really rehearse that meeting all over again. This is the opportunity for the rest of the committee who weren't part of that conversation to be able to chip in if they choose. If they're happy, that's great. I mean, I think Kelvin's made a good point, a fair question there. I just want there to be time and opportunity for members to be able to confirm on this, but I don't want to rehearse what we've already done. Anyone else on the main program for the committee? And the following pages, you can see, put some of those items into timelines, and some of them, as on the ones on page four, we still need to confirm a date on because we haven't got all of the necessary bits yet to clarify exactly when we can take that. [Inaudible] I mean, I don't want to take hands now. You're very good at letting us know when we can do these things, aren't you? You don't want me to ask you for a date on each of them now, do you? [Laughter] I like the sort of Machiavellian element of that though, that appeals to me. So as we move on through there, you see we've got meetings up until 6th of March. The page 11 is simply things and page 12 and 13 are items that we've done over the last year for your reminder. And then we're just looking at task groups and rapid scrutinies that we've got starting on page 16. So we have the standing task group, we've got the adoption restaurants scrutiny panel. And there's the opportunity for us just to confirm if anybody wants to change memberships on these at this stage. Carol, you're not going anywhere. Now, we've got educational performance outcomes, we agreed to set up a rapid scrutiny to understand in more detail the Year 6 performance figures, trends and outliers. By the look of it, we are still looking for members for that. So if anyone wants to come forward, we will put it out in the scrutiny mailings again though. And we were looking at whether we could do something to review currently available data on inclusion and determine a further scrutiny could add value. This was something brought up by the executive as something that they'd appreciate us having a look at and links into this sort of alternative provision and sort of safety valve and should we be looking at that in terms of timing of the activity. This did come from you guys in the executive as something you'd want. Is there anything you want to say on it that makes it sound more interested than I just did? Because I'm sure you could. Thanks, John. Catherine Davis, Director of Education and Skills. So we have the new SendAP and inclusion strategy that will be being launched ready for September and that's on the agenda to come to Children's Select Committee as a substantive item. But all the work, the implementation work that goes around delivering that strategy would be, is what we recommended should be looked at through scrutiny. So obviously there's a strategy itself which has been co-produced, which is crucial as a strategic response to how we meet the needs of children with SEND and wheelchair. But the implementation that sits underneath that is where we think there'd be value. So I suppose the critical question for members is are you happy that we see that as a topic that's worth as putting a task group on to looking at? Am I getting nods around? John? Yes, Chair, I'm particularly interested in doing that. I picked it up as we were looking through this, particularly on AP. I can remember when the local authority some years ago undertook the Power to Innovate, which was a government initiative, and we were one of the pathfinders local authorities in that connection. So I'd be particularly interested in that and would be happy to be a member. And we'll be opening that up for other members, so happy we recommend to management, we set up that task group fine. Another one coming from the exec meeting was homelessness as relevant to children's services to ensure that the robustness of the council's action plan and measures in place in response to the ILAP's OFSTED recommendations. You'll remember when OFSTED came and said nice things about us, there were still some recommendations that they were making and some of those related to homelessness for young people as they move on out of care. And I know that Lucy was quite keen that we could take a look at this to help with any thoughts or suggestions. Again, do you want to make that sound more interesting, Lucy? Well, just to clarify that it's 16, 17-year-old homeless, so not children who have been in care, so not care-experienced young people. So it's very specific, very small numbers for us in Wiltshire, but there was a recommendation around that. We've done some work around it. I think it would be helpful for you to take a look to assure ourselves on that progress. Okay, are people happy we look at rapid scrutiny on that? Yep, okay. Jackie's offered to go on that. So, again, we'll take that to ONS Management and get them to rubber stamp it. We've then got two other task groups that we had. The Score Performance Entertainment one we've spoken about, residential care and complex care. That's different to the one we just talked about, Lucy. Although it's come from the meeting with you. Is that the same one? Am I just reading? Yeah, so this is about our plans to tender for a provider to deliver accommodation, both for children in care, so this is the four lots in terms of the residential placements, as well as the supported care for our unaccompanied, asylum-seeking children and our care-experienced young people, as well as some move on accommodation for those who are 18 plus. So, we're just about to enter into a tender process to commission a provider. You'll know from Cabinet, we're buying some houses and accommodation to facilitate that. So, that's a big move and it's really important given the placement sufficiency challenges we still have. So, it'd be good to have your input into that. And that sounds like it's quite a different piece of work to the one that Lucy's talking about, so it wouldn't be appropriate to have the same group look at both. No, fine. Okay. So, one there. So, are we happy again? Would we recommend that that's an OS management one that needs looking at? Yep. Super. So, the children and young people's mental health services, I'm glad that we've got four people on that. A fifth would be welcome if they were out there. And that will be getting up and running pretty shortly. And then lastly, we've got, no, not quite lastly, post 16 provision. So, again, that group's been authorised as up and running. We've got members for that and that will be up and running very briefly. That's the one looking at post 16 education and then. Right. So, we did say we wanted to do a budget and major contracts task group. Mindful of workload and mindful that actually the standing task group hasn't needed to meet in the last 12 months as quite as much as we thought it would. I would like to suggest that we kind of bring the budget monitoring and sort of major contracts monitoring into the work of the standing task group. I think that that will then give it the workload we initially thought it was going to have and save us setting up yet another group. Are people happy with that? Yep. Super. Any questions on anything to do with task groups, Jackie? We did discuss yesterday about Wiltshire Learning Alliance, you were talking about a legacy report. Can't remember quite what. Is that? I sort of came in amongst all that when we were talking about these task groups. Score performance and attainment outcome, which is looking at the education, performance outcomes. And then one of the points in there is the role of the Wiltshire Learning Alliance in delivering improvement. Because we did talk about actually as a committee, we haven't really done very much for WLA at all. We'll know much about WLA at all, which we probably should. OK. Then you see the work of the standing task group that for your information. And then page twenty five, you'll see the briefings and getting back on track with having the briefings. And this is where we will take these things and look at them in more depth before meeting and try and learn more about what is going on. So you can see proposed topics for this there. And Kevin, would you would you say that what you'd like us to do with these is is rather than saying, putting you didn't you were using ECH piece as an example. So what what you'd like to see these is an explanation as to as part of the briefing, what the process is and why we have to go through the loops that we go through and is there an alternative. Yes, I think so. Yeah. Not really asking the question why, but it but I suppose you have to if you want to understand any way of making things more efficient and less resource hungry. That we can certainly make sure that's taken on board. Oh, sorry, it doesn't end there. Page twenty nine, you get to see what Jackie and I do between closed doors. The briefings that are scheduled to come to us over a period. It's important to say that the briefings that come to the chair vice chair, any member is welcome to come along to one of those briefings. Normally, if you wanted to, if it's a topic of interest, it's just that there's quite a lot of them over the year. And it's just not practical to do all of them is all member briefings the workload would be. But but if there's a topic you're interested in, or something that we've talked about is going to be coming as a briefing and you're interested in it, get hold of the scrutiny team or give Jackie and I call and we can make sure that you get an invite. Okay. So, I think that's our. Oh, not really all of that. No, no, no, no, no. We've gone through the, are you going to mention on your notes page seven at the bottom briefing. The one where we invite British Wayman to come and talk about after school after county schooling. No, no, no. Okay. So, yeah, that's that's the future work program unless anyone has any questions. Nope. Okay, let's go on to the bit. We've all been waiting for the safety valve updates, our regular updates and we kick off with safety valve, and Ben is here to tell us all about it. Yes, thank you. Ben Stevens, the inclusion send an AP transformation lead. So you members will have seen the report, and the information contained within the, the main body of the report is relatively brief. It just runs through the updates. It does highlight a couple of areas where we've regulated the program as we've gone through a couple of areas that amber. So just draw members attention to those. And those are delivering the right spot at the right time. That's primarily about the delivery of additional special school places and that's currently regulated amber, because there's been a few delays around the delivery of those and also we haven't had confirmation of capital funding from government before we went into the pre election period and so that that is now not expected before September at the earliest. So that, that resulted in an amber for that one and then around preparation for adulthood, a lot of the plans there there's some really really good work happening in the 16 plus preparation for adulthood space, but it's not strategically aligned yet and so we're just sort of bringing that together making sure that those draft plans have really solid measurables behind them and things like that. So again that's that's currently sitting at amber. Overall though the project remains green, the total deficit we expect at the end of this financial year, that measure is currently green we haven't, we can't see anything at the moment in the financial data suggest otherwise. So that's really positive. And then I suppose the final thing it's just worth highlighting. As is referred to in paragraph 21 of the report, since children's that committee last met the agreement was signed and published. I think last meeting we were, we were skirting around the edges of discussing it. And at that stage we were reporting that we expected that will to Council's financial contribution would need to be between 70 to 90 million pounds. And that's now been set at 70.3 million. So as long as we deliver all the savings that are in our plan, that would that's the the contribution that we would expect from wheelchair Council, it can go down if we do really well. I suppose it can also go up if we if we don't do really well, but that's that's there as well. I think those are the things I want to draw members tensions to chair and I'm happy to take any questions. Anyone got any questions for them, then nobody warned you about me and grab ratings today. Knowing look on Jen's face. I, I hate drag ratings, I love drag ratings, but I hate drag ratings that don't give, first of all, any real indication of how they're measured. Because it's a subjective thing and we can't evidence it, and scrutiny is all about evidence. So, I understand what's, but I mean this is information of the dashboard isn't it, very early stages so, but, but I understand we've broken the project down into sort of bite sized bits all along the way and you're regulating, as I understand it here towards that first milestone. But it paints a very rosy picture. around a very rosy challenge, and I think that what we need to have is something that not only tells us are we on track which to degree this is doing. But how much is that leaving us towards getting to where we should be in terms of, because there will be a wide range of things that we need to bring into line, and as we get further down the line with with this and when we were talking about this I said I wasn't interested in setting up a task group looking at this or anything for 12 months because you're gonna get your feet under the table, got to get the project running but once that's happening, we're going to need to know whether we are finding those savings finding those efficiencies finding those better ways of working, which actually all sounds financial but also means better experiences for our young people, which is more important. And across that range, and when we've got broad categories of of stuff like this I think it will be very hard for us to dig in and say, to stick with the EHCP example that that was being used earlier what are we managing to reduce the number of EHCP that are being raised in the county, and more importantly, are we delivering a number of other specialist services that because you could just say we stop EHCPs, but that doesn't help the young people but you could say we're reducing EHCPs, but we've got these additional readability groups and whatever groups dyslexia support and all the rest of it, which is is is is is rising to meet that need and helping us deliver those, am I making sense to deliver those settings. So I would just be looking in the dashboard and in the back ratings that we've got something that tells us not only how we're doing against next week's target, but how we're doing against the five year target. Thanks. I think that's a really good point and it's something that the leader raised in the board meeting as well when when we're looking at these ratings and obviously given that the needs of children and would send and their families are central to everything we do, we want to make sure that we're measuring those experiential things as well alongside those kind of those the broader measures so it's definitely something we're looking at how we do. I mean I'm approaching, I was approaching this for a project management point of view and so I was measuring progress against against the objectives, rather than thinking about those broader things but definitely take your point that we need to be reporting those as well so that you've got a better understanding of how things are moving and what that looks like, because there is a difference between the direction of travel, which is green, and the remaining situation, which probably still remains amber red. We do need to make sure that we're giving you that full picture. I'll come to you. It's trends in there as well I've been looking for because the best data set that we ever negotiated as we were coming out from the safeguarding and let's remember this and we will remember this. Lucy will as well actually in fairness, but but we used to get a fantastic data set where the back rating was quite clinical. We had percentages that made it go green, red or amber, you know, it was over a certain amount it went amber. If it be amber for too long over a bigger figure it went red, but when it came through committee. What, as a committee we used to be able to do was say actually we understand the reason why this is like this. So as a committee we're saying that's not amber it's green or it's not red it's blue, which offset like because it demonstrated it was being properly looked at but also meant as a committee, we really could dig into what we needed to dig into and not. Whereas, and it would have things like direction of travel is higher good or bad so and so forth. And then we got a box. I understand when we, we did the, the article implementation for that task with the project reports were more similar to this, but there's a lot more raw data behind this isn't there and I think we mustn't lose track of that more data. Carol. Thank you for your point john I remember a meeting I'm sure it was probably last year, when we talked about when the HCP came in, you know how which console set up a team to deal with it. Somebody said, actually we lost track of of helping schools deal with with children with these needs. And that's what I'm not seeing in this report, you know that really stuck with me and I thought, How can we be so green. I mean the schools couldn't have changed overnight. I'm sure that needs an awful lot of work and I just wondered where it was in this report. Catherine. Thank you. And I just want to explain really the mainstream inclusion is written throughout our high needs blocks sustainability planning is absolutely central and crucial to what we want to do we recognize the support that's needed for schools around that mainstream inclusion offer that they're able to make for children and families so we will consider how we can reflect and represent that and reports to children select going forward but it is throughout the work streams and is explicitly identified as a priority. I think the thing that worries me on something like that, and I don't know if this reflects what you're suggesting or thinking how but, but certainly is what I don't want to have is a rag racing that says to me. This is green, because we've written a strategy for how we deal with it, or this is green because we've identified this is a problem and we know we need to do something about it. I want something to be green because you can evidence the impact of what we've done. This council has got strategies and action plans and God knows what's for all sorts of things that some of which were very good at some of which were not. And on many of them the actual the strategy is just a document on a shelf. I want, you know, I want the evidence that this committee is looking on safety valve to be based on impact, and not aspiration. Anyone else, Trevor. Speaking with that sort of similar thing. I'm looking at paragraph 1718 of the main agenda, and the ACP numbers and the uncertainty around those and you say you're doing further analysis and obviously it's been quite crucial to the success of the whole project. Any progress on the analysis. There's been some progress on that analysis, there's still, there's still some further work to do to really look at the patterns and it's quite one of the significant challenges has been that in what you usually take a sort of five year data set and say okay very neat and then we can look at all the patterns there. And obviously COVID happened in the middle of our five year data set and so it's quite difficult to interpret what is a residual backlog of children who maybe didn't get assessed during COVID because they didn't have in constant contact with educational professionals, or similar, and what is genuine sustained growth as that has been challenging, what we're starting to see is probably growth, this school year is similar to last school year. Last school year was the highest growth we'd ever seen. And so there is a challenge it looks as though growth is leveled out but remains at that high level. And so that's what it looks like at this stage. So what we're, what we're now looking to do then is take that as our sort of baseline, we can start measuring our impact against so that in the new school year, when we're implementing a lot of the support that we're putting around schools so that they're more able to support children with complex needs. We can then use that as our measure in terms of having that two years worth of growth that we can measure against and see where the impact is. So it's, it's not an ideal situation and there's still some work to be done. Is that growth coming through early years? Is that growth coming through young people holding their HCPs longer into post 16? There's a whole set of questions that we need to really get underneath. And then we need to think, understand the reasons for that. But we're starting to build a better picture that will, that will give us a more comprehensive ability to review and report on this as we move forward. Carol. Apart from working with schools, how are you monitoring the children who either are being taught at home or have been excluded and perhaps just aren't yet connected to a place where they can study? I'll answer that one. So we have a targeted education service within the Directorate who have got responsibility for oversight of our electrically home educated learners and we've also got a team that looks at children who might be absent from education for reasons such as suspension or who are on part-time timetables. We always consider a child's special educational needs and disabilities as part of those reviews and some of those reports come to Children Select for scrutiny. For example, we regularly bring those elective home education and children missing education updates here with explanation on performance, but also, you know, next steps in terms of our work. Obviously, specifically around electively home educated children and children missing education that will form part of the iLACS inspection last autumn and was part of outstanding judgment, but there will be further reports coming to Children Select as as we do every year around those measures. Okay, anyone else for anything else? I mean it's a huge job, which which which is going on there and thank you for, you know, pretty comprehensive update that's come forward. It is good to see focus on on improving reporting and making it as meaningful as possible. But I really would stress those points about about some quantitative data in there that we can look at and I wonder if there might be a benefit. You're hoping to have your sort of draft dashboard up and running for July if I read this correctly. Yes. Yes, that's the plan. I mean, we're quite close to having something that that is a draft dashboard. So, yeah. Well, I mean, all I think is we have a select committee on I think is 18th of July. So, certainly, it would be good if it can come to that. What might be helpful if there's the opportunity is for it to come to the standing task group before that just for any initial thoughts so that you can have those before coming to the main meeting. But, Julie, we will be in touch about that if we've got a date that could work. I recognize it's relatively short notice for everybody at that. But I think this is such an important thing that we've got to get that dashboard right for reporting to reporting to us on its progress. And it's really worth investing the effort into doing that. And I'm happy to come and meet up at any time to run through anything that I'm going on about. So about this. Sorry, I just remembered rather crucial question. There's lots of mention of special schools and how they're progressing and things, but I didn't see unless I missed it. Any reference to the special site in Westbury that the Department of Education was going to fund and wondered how that was progressing. And also, I've heard some confusing issues that I just wanted clarification whether this was supposed to be a school that was for permanent use or a school where children just went for a time period to have something sorted out and then and then they go back to mainstream school. I'm happy to pick that up. And it might be helpful to bring do a briefing around this because there's quite a number of developments in the capital space around development of new schools and settings in the specialist arena. So we've got approval for an CMH free school in Westbury. That is a special school. So that would be for children to be on roll out and would be full time places. We also have some developments in terms of the alternative provision space with developments coming online in the north of the county but also a free school application that has just been approved by DfE for a new AP free school which would be a registered provision, which would have sites in the north and the south of the county. Where there are AP settings that are registered which Wiltshire Council are providing the building for, then we would not expect those to be a destination for children but provide short term placements. Where they are free schools. There's more scope for children to remain there as part of transition arrangements in particular before they go on to post 16 education for example so it's a busy space so I recognise the value of that question and if a briefing on all of those developments that are underway would be helpful. I'm happy to provide that. Yeah, I think it would be helpful if we could look to try and make that happen. Okay, so are we happy we can park safety valve there for this session we look forward to seeing you back in July Ben. Sorry. You'll learn not to. So, we move on to. We had quite a package that ended up in our agenda over this through to I think there was. It's not our normal report that we were expecting. So, I feel you not we're not going to work our way through 14 slides. But, and I'm assured that we will get the normal report identifying specific schools and progress from them, but are there any questions from any members on. Was there anything specific Catherine, you want to know just to say that we will make sure that any office inspection outcomes that have been published since the last children select committee will come out with the minutes from today's meeting. It didn't see DFE changes. Anybody read anything in there they wanted to ask, we could see quite a few more substantial changes I suspect the next time we have one of these, and go back to our usual process in these meetings of course of having a new Secretary of State for each. Jackie. I was just going to say I read through that and I picked up on items three and four, so I don't know what page we're on now. I'm looking at Wiltshire's position with regard to mental health. So again, I wanted to have that. But then with the mental health strategy that we're looking at, because obviously, good to get schools and colleges, dealing with it. So, there was something about PE as well. And I wondered. I've written that down. Oh, dear. I read all these notes. Yes. Yes. One of the things that I wondered is that, because in the past we've heard how schools have all sold off their playing fields, and whether that's the case in Wiltshire, whether they're able to provide the PE and everything that we do, or would like to do, and the connection again with mental health, have we got schools where they haven't got as much PE and sports going on, and are there higher mental health issues in those schools, or is there no connection at all? I just was wondering. OK, thanks. I'll take the first question about alignment around some of the mental health work, just to reassure you, Jackie, that there is really good alignment there. We've talked about the senior mental health practitioner roles in schools, but we also have exciting new developments around mental health support teams in schools and working closely with our health colleagues in BSW around that. So that alignment is strong. In terms of PE, Sport England do an excellent job of ensuring all across the country, and certainly in Wiltshire, that sports fields pitches are protected and it's not a concern for us in Wiltshire. In terms of the direct link with mental health, obviously there's curriculum requirements for schools around how they deliver PE and the frequency of that, and our schools are in line with those expectations. I don't have any information specifically about the links with PE and mental health there in Wiltshire. I also picked up on 18 about data of young people who attend out of county schools, and how do we collect the data. I'm not quite sure, reading what's online, how that question came up. Yes, it's about how we collect data on young people in education, employment and training, but if they've been out of county schools, how do we collect that data if we don't know who they are. So we've got really robust processes with our performance and insights team in the council who link then across with our post 16 skills and participation group. We've got a statutory duty as a council to report on participation for our 16 and 17 year olds, and our performance in that space is strong. There's no concern with how we track that information across borders, obviously we will have children in young people in Wiltshire who will attend colleges outside of Wiltshire, and we're able to track that through. The last question I had on this was on point 28 which is page 36 on the main report was to do with protective security and preparedness of education settings for terrorism and other major incidents. I didn't know whether perhaps we ought to as a committee have an update on where we are with that and make sure all our schools are, I know you're looking puzzled John. Well it's in here, Wiltshire's position about education safeguarding effectiveness, preparing the course of educational settings colleagues, colleagues for wider services including the police. I don't know whether we ought to know about that, or whether we just watch it. I mean, I don't think Wiltshire is at risk, but anybody says that. I mean, we are able to present some information to you more widely around the Prevent Agenda so if that's something that Children's Select Committee would like to know more about we can do that. However, we already report through into Children's Select Committee specifically around education safeguarding effectiveness, including outcomes of school safeguarding audits completed annually. So I think that would be a decision for members as to whether you'd like anything extra. Yeah, I would just contextualize it Jackie, in terms of there are things that come out from DfE all the time to schools and organizations, saying, how are you thinking about this how are you thinking about that. We took a briefing here, on every one of those report or requests that went out to schools, each of which sounds really important when, you know, they're going out, we wouldn't ever get anything else done, I think. But if the committee was minded it wanted to take it then obviously we could, but I think it's overkill personally. Something to bear in mind, perhaps for the future. You can prove me wrong. But it is not just terrorism is it's also behavior patterns in schools as to whether pupils are at risk from other pupils and things like that. Hopefully we don't have that big, big issue, and it's been dealt with by our schools. Just one thing for me on there, if I could, which is to do with the safeguarding vulnerable people partnership. We used to have a course in Mister something I can't remember the name of now, but it had the independent chair and he used to sit on this committee and they'd report to us, then it all changed and we didn't have that anymore. We, because we used to have to have something by law didn't we and I'm just I can't remember what it's called. So we used to have the LSCB. LSCB and we had the WSCB here because we want to be different. I mean we've lost contact with all that sort of thing now and I don't know. We can arrange for reports, so I sit on the executive on the SVPP executive. And then we have families and children's system assurance group that sits beneath, which clearly just focuses on children because the SVPP covers children, adults and community safety and partnership feeds in there. Catherine and Jen are both on FCSA, and then also there is an education safeguarding committee that Catherine chairs which is with schools, etc. So they're just in the process of doing the annual report, aren't they, for the SVPP so maybe once that's complete we can bring that back. Yeah, we can arrange that. Yeah. And I noticed this with interest that they have someone on there who's a independent scrutineer. Close quotes. So this is a new role, so about six months in the independent scrutineer, somebody called David Williams so he's employed specifically to do independent work because he doesn't, he's not employed by the council per se. The partnership funds. He used to be an independent chair. So with the SVPP obviously there have been changes but in the most recent working together, there are clear expectations around how that partnership works now. So, we were actually ahead of the game, but there are a few things that we are looking at. One of which is schools engagement at the executive level, for example, so actually it'd be quite a good time to bring you an update. So we'll double check on the timing of the annual report because if it's too far, you might want something sooner but we can certainly, we'll timetable something in. Yeah. If we can get something in before Christmas I think that would be good. Get it in this calendar year. Anyone else have anything on the, nope, brilliant. Sorry. Good to see the White House percentage is lower than the South West and England for pupil absences. Just one thing I will be quite keen to and that probably technically doesn't sit under this report but if you can humor me, I'll be very grateful. Which is levels of temporary and indeed tragically now permanent exclusions that are preventing children from attending school. And because of course I'm a data hungry hog, if you can give a breakdown of that with SCND children, that would be really really helpful. Anyone else. I just wondered also. We never have any reasons of the absence is we just get that they're absent. So we don't know whether there's a serious reason that children are absent, or there it's just sort of a Monday morning feeling or they're off on holiday or they're off for a long weekend on a Friday. So there's no there's no questions. Yeah, we can, we obviously have full breakdown of all the different codings that schools report so whether it's holiday illness, the reasons for authorized or unauthorized so I mean, it creates quite a detailed report, but some if you, you are interested in something around which bits are particularly unauthorized absences around the sort of trends around the more detailed and that then yeah we can we can bring that to this committee if you think that'd be interesting. Just possibly just something that you might be concerned that's happening regularly that we ought to know about, or whether we as committee need to know. Obviously illness tends to be one of the highest areas so we look at the sort of highest trends. And whether there's patterns in that and but the thing that we're most interested in is the C code which is the other authorized circumstance where we don't have the detail and that's where our Education 113 would pick up any of those trends, and with those schools with the highest concerns around particular codes, or if there were individual pupils perhaps open to social care etc etc where again, there were more concerning bits of absence that's where we would work with schools, and you'd sort of address that. And also our special educational needs. I think it was that we were above the national numbers aren't we we're 10.8%. I think the figures and it was 3370 of our young people who got S E N, who were absent, and you've got a total of 3481 absence in total so does that number of 3481 all because it only means 111 of others who are S E N. I'm sure that's not right. The figures probably. There is some discrepancy in the figures as we've explained because we don't get a full data set from all schools but from September because of the new statutory guidance we will have a full data set for all pupils. We do work, particularly with our special schools around attendance and we have seen some positive outcomes for that, particularly this year it's an upward trend. But we will get a full data set and we'll continue to report to you on that, yeah. When was the fine, the fines that parents have, when was that set and is there a reviewing process. You know, when it's going to be reviewed, whether we put up the fines or something. I did hear something from a parent about taking their child or children out of school to go on holiday and they were going to admit it to the school. That was the reason they were going to hide it. But she said, it's worth it because the cost of the fine is so much lower than the cost of the holiday would be if we went in school holidays. Yes, and that is absolutely a pattern that we've got. And so the new regulations around penalty notices and the links within the report if you want to look at it, that changes from August and there's been some significant changes around penalty notices. So yes, they've upped the amount that parents have fined. But one of the biggest changes is that across a three year period, parents can only be given a penalty notice twice. And that's regardless of whether they've moved to different counties, different schools, that sort of stays with them. And after that point of having two penalty notices for typically taking holiday, but it can be for other things too, then they would then go through to further legal action or other sort of action that we take so that could go to the court, etc. So within that penalty notice, they're trying to put more punitive sanctions in place and develop more consistency around the use of penalty notices because there was lots of inconsistency across schools and across counties around that. So the idea is about to try and change some of that behaviour of parents through that, but we hope that won't be the case because also the new guidance is very much about supporting and identifying any absence issues at an earlier point and being able to put in work with parents at schools to support that, so that's never really a case. But for those that do choose to do an exam for the example you've given, there is a very clear guidance around that in terms of how penalty notices are used, so we will wait for the implications of that and it's something that we can report back to to you, I guess if you're interested in that. Okay, thank you very very much. There has been no meeting your school form, since we last met, but I'm sure that has been the corporate port parenting panel, we were hurt not to have Peter here today. Is that off so who can give us any updates on what's going on with CPP. I can, yes. So, I guess the main thing is we're just in the process of finalising the annual corporate parenting report so that is due to come to the committee or I think a standing task group very soon. I was reading the draft of it, I hope you will agree in time it is looking very positive in terms of everything we're doing around our corporate parenting duties, members commitment to that as well as obviously the outcomes we're achieving for that cohort of young people so probably not much more to say on that, because that annual report is so imminently due. Thank you. So we come to Lucy's favorite part the directors update. What would you like to update us on Lucy. Well, I was just going to do a very quick one, and linked to health so referenced earlier, excuse me I chair the local integrated care alliance which is the partnership between ourselves health. So the ICB health partners, some of the hospitals community health providers and the voluntary community sector. And that is continuing, though we are taking a slightly different approach to how we run those forum going forward with a much more focused attention on some of fewer priorities that we feel we can have more significant impact on as a partnership so for example, our meeting next week is focusing on oral health. So that's, you know, an area that we feel we can make some progress on. And that is all age but clearly there is, you know, there will be focused around children in that space also. But you may not be aware that the ICB so the integrated care board so that's where staff are employed by an organization called the ICB also have had to make 30% efficiency savings. So they've just coming out the other side of a kind of restructure, and we are waiting for the final structure in that regard but it is likely that where we currently have a team of staff working with us in the wheelchair place that that there will only be one place team to cover, Wiltshire, Baines and Swindon going forward so that is likely to have some kind of impact. We're not entirely sure what that will be at this moment in time. And also, I'm the local place director for Wiltshire is leaving so there's quite a lot of change for us in that space. So I'm just flagging that you may, you know, you've had some contact with people come in from mental health strategy, etc. So there will like in all likelihood be a few changes of faces. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And so hopefully you will have seen that we had our HMIP Youth Justice Service inspection published last month, and a report on that will come to the committee, next month it wasn't ready in time for today unfortunately but you will hopefully have seen that we got an overall good rating which we're very proud of that was the first inspection in would you believe 10 years under a new inspection and framework so we haven't we hadn't previously had a graded inspection so that was really very good and within that we also did get an outstanding grading for the resettlement work so we're very pleased with that as always there's more we can be doing and the report. In addition to what we talked about in terms of one of the items around residential placement essentially placements efficiency is, we know that is our bit one of, well, it is the biggest challenge in children's social care is around having the right placements for children because we know there aren't enough foster placements. And we've got the first of our four residential children's homes, opening at the end of this month. It's obviously long awaited so that's really good news. The second should open approximately six weeks after that so July, August, and then the remaining two which is still going through the process of the exact properties that those will be will be opening by the end of this year is the plan obviously that all has to go through the office of registration process we have a provider that's delivering those homes for us that has lots of other homes around the county that are good and outstanding so we're just going through the process of thinking about which children would be most suitable to move into those homes and obviously what it means is we're moving children who are currently outside of wheelchair at quite considerable distance some of them back home to wheelchair so that really is very positive. And then the other thing just linked to that as I've mentioned before that we're part of the DFE program which is a fostering recruitment and retention. So, we've just launched a hub for the southwest which wheelchair we're leading on with Cornwall councils that launched at the end of April, and the point of that is to try and attract more foster care is obviously not least to the region but to wheelchair Some of our special needs for extended care is to become foster carers for us so that's in its infancy and I think it would be good to come back and update you on that but it's good it's launched. We've got that hub in place so that was just some positive news, in terms of some real tangibles which hopefully will start to help us address this real kind of national crisis around placements. That was my updates. Thank you. I think from an educational and skills perspective just one update I want to share. Some of you be aware that in the south of the county, we have quite a significant number of families from Afghanistan who are being supported in temporary service family accommodation, before they are supported into permanently resettled homes across the country. The MOD we're providing a temporary interim education offer for the children as part of those families. However, for some of those families, the duration of their stay in the temporary accommodation has been longer than expected, and as a result, the majority of those children have sought and accessed places on roll at Wiltshire schools. We're working closely with the MOD to discuss around discussions around funding and resources around education for those children in the schools where they are now on roll. So just a bit of an awareness raising really that that is an ongoing conversation with the Ministry of Defence. Thank you. Anybody got any questions for any of our directors on anything they've reported? Lucy's got a question. No I haven't got a question, I've just got one more that I forgot to say. So we had our annual engagement meeting with Ofsted on 16 May. So what that means is that we have to share with them our self-assessment of our social care services two weeks in advance of the meeting, which provides them with all of the data on our performance and our self-evaluation. So then we spent about two hours discussing that in the meeting and then there was a specific focus for about the remaining third of the meeting on alternative provision. So Jen, Catherine and I attended. And Jen and Catherine don't even know this, so I forgot to send it to them. We got the draft letter yesterday, so I'll send it to them now, but we'll be able to share some more detail of that with you in due course. Well, it's not graded, it's a letter on, you know, talks about what the conversation was about, but I think evidence as well that they remain assured by our practice. Thanks. Thank you, Jackie. The only thing, sorry, the only thing I can ask Jen, can you communicate? No, no, no. The communications, will they put that out, all your good news that you've just given us? Because I think that was brilliant news and obviously I like to share it all with as many people as I can. And we are actually planning, it's not finalized, but once it is, I'll let you know a bit of a launch of our children's homes because I think it's so significant. So I'll let you know. So CHI in commissioning is leading on that. So we're just finalizing, but I'll definitely let you know when when that's planned. Also, also the off state on the justice, I think. Sorry, that has, but I can make sure it pushed out again. Definitely go out. Is it the Melchamp home that's opening first? Because I've seen all the work that's taking place on it. Every time I walk past, it's excellent. Yeah. Suzanne, last man standing. Oh, sorry, no, no, no, no, no. Sorry. Pre meeting topic, oral health. I think you were very keen on that Lucy. Coming in July. I mean, is that confirmed. We could bring in oral health here. Yes, yeah, we can do yeah it's fine for the briefing. Yeah, several to want to in July. It's coming to the ICA next week, so it'll be ready. Excellent. Sorry to look forward for July. Suzanne, anything from the executive. Thank you Chair, you're representing everyone now. Briefly, and it is sharing of more good news, and you won't be surprised it's the dyslexia friendly school that I have reported on before, and I know it's in the report, but I actually keep in touch and I'm aware now that they're getting a lot of interest across the UK as to why they're working in Wiltshire because we know they've they've got vision for the country, they've got a lot of interest across the UK as to why they're working in Wiltshire because we know they've got 15 schools so far. They're now working with another, sorry. Yeah, the second group of 15, they're now working with, and they're hoping they will be receiving their quality mark in 25, summer of 25. And they're also then looking at, you know what work has to be done to look towards the future again for the next cohort coming funding and all the rest of it, but it really is good news because this is such a small team and I know I've said this before, but it's very small team, but they are actually presenting across, you know, they've been into Westminster, they're presenting in different places supporting other dyslexia friendly type of investigations and so on, so it really is good news, we are, I think I've used this phrase before punching above the weight here, and all power to them because obviously it's early intervention before anyone knows they need intervention, isn't it? So, yeah, great news. Thank you. Oh, yeah, I was just before we came into the meeting I was just explaining something, my role within the Westbury area board, my specialism, not specialism, tell me the word Carol, yeah, is vulnerable children, and I've been working for some time to try and get together it's been difficult, but to try and get together some cookery sessions, and we're finally getting there now. And I will report to the area board side so that if this is useful to other area boards because it's a parent and child having a weekly session for six weeks, and we've managed to catch or work with funky foods who deal with our fuel, and they've been extremely helpful we struggled a bit on premises but we look like we're, you know, on the way now so it is exciting. And, yeah, I'll keep other area boards, aware because I have spoken to another counselor who thought it would be a great idea for them to look at so it's just a very early indication of something that hopefully will be really worth doing. Yeah. Thank you. Brilliant. Thank you. Anyone got any questions for the executive. Got off lightly there, Susan, chairs, update. Nothing significant with regards to what's happening at Wilshire Council. I don't know if this would be interesting for members or not, but as you may be aware, I also sit as the deputy chair of the Children and Young People's Board on the LGA. And in that role, some duties I've done since we last met in March, we had a webinar session that was titled future in mind, which I chaired and, which was was talking about really future children services. In April. I was honored to represent the LGA attending a conference laid on by the forces society, where I sat on a panel with Harriet Harmon MP, talking about transforming early childhood education and care. Looking at some experiences used in other countries, there's been a force it society report that's come out on it, which was actually really interesting. And next week I will be chairing a LGA webinar on free school meals, and what's happening with those, and also on the CMIP board. I am sharing the mental health top Children's Mental Health Task Group that's operating this year, looking at recommendations for the new government on mental health. So that's what I'm doing when I'm up in London. So, I'm always happy to answer any questions out of the meeting if anyone had any questions or points they wanted to raise. Overview and scrutiny activity updates. I think all these items really have been covered elsewhere. As we talked through the forward work program and task groups earlier. So just to note that I'm protective clothing required, because we've changed the date of the next meeting. And the date of the next scheduled meeting is 18th of July. That's Wednesday then, isn't it? Okay, so it's a Thursday again. This, this has been moved this time because they're interviewing for the new chief executive role on the 16th and there's all sorts of things going on. And we just couldn't be holding select committee meeting that day. So, as usual, just about anything else Trump scrutiny. So, we got we got dumped so don't blame me. If you want to blame anyone for that direct everything at Terrence for leaving. And on that point, I have no urgent items, so I will close the meeting thank you very much everybody. Thank you. Thank you.