Transcript

It sounds like the place to be. Hello, can you hear the room now again? Yes, yes, I can hear the room. Welcome everyone. Hello. Hello. Thank you very much. Good evening and welcome to this evening's overview and scrutiny committee. I am councillor Liz Atkins, chair of the committee. This meeting has been recorded and is being broadcast live. In the event that technical issues require the meeting to be adjourned and it can't be restarted within a few minutes, further updates will be posted on the council's democracy Twitter account, which is at LBL Democracy. The council has a duty to protect sensitive personal data, so please avoid using full names or any other details that may reveal the identity of others. No apologies. No apologies have been received for this meeting, but because of delays on the tube, both councillor Curtis and councillor Masters may be late, so they'll join us as soon as they can. OK, so can the overview and scrutiny members please now introduce themselves and say if you have any declarations of interest in relation to any matters to be considered this evening. So let's go left, starting with Annie. Hi, good evening. My name is councillor Annie Gallop and I'm from Myats Fields Ward. No celebrations. Good evening, my name is Paul Griffiths, I'm the Green Party councillor in Stratus-Sach-Emmerts Ward and I have no interest to declare. Good evening chair, good evening everyone, I'm councillor Divac. Siding all councillor in Hernehill and Loughborough Junction, I have no interest to declare matters this evening. OK, we'll go to David. Good evening, councillor David Oxley. Stopwell West and Larkal Ward, no interest to declare. I don't feel the need to tell you which to declare. I'm councillor Inglis Jones, Clapham Common and Abbeville, Labour councillor, no interest to declare. councillor J. Rampel-Fornby, Stopwell West and Larkal Ward, no interest to declare. OK, let's have officers committee may be able to introduce and then other officers and cabinet members will introduce when you speak. Good evening, my name is Richard Shawty, Democratic Services Officer. I'm Roger Raymond, Senior Democrat Services Officer. OK, thank you. So I am councillor for Streatham Hill East. OK, so now let's move on to the minutes of the previous meeting committee held on the 21st of January this year. No amendments have been received by Democratic Services. Are the minutes agreed? I know there's a small item that councillor Griffiths will raise with you just a minor amendment in a minute. I'll give you that length. OK. Now we move on to the first item of core business for tonight's meeting, the Libraries Review. Lambert Libraries are the public face of the Council. They provide a superb service to the whole community. And so it's not surprising that they've been shortlisted for UK Library of the Year. But there is huge concern that funding cuts could jeopardise the service. So this evening we'll explore that. We'll first hear from the Cabinet Member for Stronger Communities. Donatus, you have up to five minutes to introduce the report. Thank you Chair. I know you have a lot today and I'm just going to be brief and I've got officers here as well. Thank you. Chair, you're absolutely right. The Lambert Libraries is a very core service for our communities. And we also have to provide a relation of support for our vulnerable residents. And you're absolutely right, Chair. My thanks to the officers. The staff is the deliver and that is why the Libraries have been nominated in a version of awards. So to start with, our library, we have got ten libraries. And then also we got mobile libraries, which also you can call it home library. And then also we got prison service, which is again key to the area of service we provide. The report indicates relation to our opening hours. And each library will show you how many opening hours they have done. Also, the library services also indicate relation to the absolute rights relation to our funding. So in essence, in the last few years, our funding has been 4.7 million or 4 million that we provide a year. We have also done a lot of capital work. And this year is 1.7 million. And within that, we have people, if you have visited Brickson Library, you will see the work has been done there, bringing some of our areas that are not reachable. Now, for all our residents to reach those services. So we made our libraries more accessible. We opened the libraries to generate more income. We made the library to meet some of core financial difficulties the council has. Chair, you did mention issues about crops. What I did say, and I continue repeating, is our efficient savings. Within those efficient savings, we made a commitment that it will not affect our opening hours. It will not affect the staff, in a sense. However, I focus on my experience in relation to whether there are service changes in relation to structuring. So, and that, some of it will be positive, mainly. Some grades will be, individuals will be upgraded in relation of levels. So really, for me to clear, to say that the libraries is maintained to provide adequate services. For our residents, meeting our Boro plan, which is number 30 Boro plan. And then also enabling to generate additional incomes. Maintain the cultural principles of the council. Let on to our LGBTQ plus History Month. Our Black History Month. And then also providing some of our residents. Who use our libraries to showcase their work. Whether it is their book or whether it is their art. So again, those provisions are there. From South Lambart, Gypsy Hill, Upper Norwood, West Norwood, Brixton. All our libraries are invested in. And we continue to be invested in. In order to make them more accessible for everybody. Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much. Okay, we've had requests to speak from four people. First of all, Laura Swaffield, who's the Chair of the Friends of the Borough's Library. You have three minutes. Thank you for having me. It's sheer chance, of course, that we're discussing libraries this evening. This is not being formally called in as the sort of a routine health check. I was planning to talk about what terrific service this is, as Donatis has been saying. And what a bargain it is to the council. Unfortunately, we suddenly get this bombshell on the 20th of February. A massive cut to this revenue budget. Which, as we keep saying, is four million plus. Which has barely moved in cash terms since 1984. And is half what Southwark libraries get. You'd need a microscope to find it. It was somewhere among the 700 plus pages of the Cabinet papers. People have been very surprised to find out. And they're not very happy. This is never seen before by councillors or by you. Or indeed by the Cabinet meeting that preceded the one that discussed with it. If ever a decision needed a proper call-in, it is this one. I gather they are still working out how to make this cut. There's a promise to keep all the neighbors open and maintain the opening out. We really, really appreciate that. Compared with previous Council Bright Ideas, this is such progress I can't tell you. We're thrilled to bits. We also really, really appreciate the capital investment. But it's all been chucked in the dustbin by this sudden inexplicable cut. May I remind you. Well, I gather, I gather, we're trying to find out how it's to be done. Because it's still being worked out. Cut first, think later. That it's going to be done by making the staff go on working extra hard. Filling in vacant posts. And by cutting the books on. May I remind you that books and staff are the core thing that you are obliged to provide by law. Have you seen the local press? Buzz, Blog, Southwark News, London News, SLP, social media, even next door. There's a hail of criticism of the cut. They're all using it as a stick to beat the Council for all its other performances. And yet there are some great stories to tell. There's the award that the libraries have won. There's a wonderful new exhibition about services. But all it's getting is, why the cut? Why the cut? You're ruining the service. That's what you're getting in the press. And a stinging piece in The Independent. So you're not looking good at national level either. So I wonder what we can do to rescue the Council from this self-inflicted disaster. If I dare suggest, if we pause this decision, if we work together on a better plan, which actually involves the people who run the service and actually involves us friends, because we add a great deal of value to the service. And if you're looking at cuts, I would, I would respectfully suggest that you could work 25% of quite a number of other departments, which do not provide a good service and in some cases positively hurt people. Thank you very much. OK, can we move on now to Martha Staudill from the Doctoral Partnership, who's joining us online, I think. Good evening, everyone. My name is Martha Staudill. Can you hear me? Yeah, you have three minutes. Lovely. Yes. So my name is Martha Staudill. I'm a community builder from Driving Stockwell, delivered by Stockwell Partnership. So I'm today on behalf of Stockwell Partnership. Stockwell Partnership is a voluntary sector organisation that briefly, very briefly, aims to improve the quality of life in the local neighbourhood with a focus on Stockwell. So Lambert Libraries has played a vital, absolutely vital role for us in co-designing and co-delivering joint projects and events, especially our programmes focus on the most disadvantaged communities. It's a key partner for us, but also for thriving Stockwell Network and one of our absolutely greatest assets in Stockwell. Over the last past 10 years, through close ongoing and very consistent, extremely consistent collaboration, libraries has supported us with supporting individuals in need through number of projects. I will only mention three family support and advocacy programmes focus on ethnic minorities, Latin American, Eastern European and Horn of Africa communities. So libraries provided us with space for staff and project delivery. We also went extremely closely over the years on Lambert Early Action Partnership, LIB community engagement programme focused on supporting parents and families with young children. And again, on this programme, libraries provided us with additional resources, staff support and space to facilitate number of multilingual sessions and family events. And very recent ongoing project, a programme, Thriving Stockwell focused on improving health and wellbeing in partnership with local primary care network, including five local GPs and public health services to reduce health inequalities. And again, libraries stepped in and help us accommodate our peer support groups. But that's not all. Libraries also has been supporting community action and linking with programmes on East European communities by hosting migrant focused drop-in sessions and workshops, refugee welcome community programmes by providing resources, books, laptops, hosting activities for the local refugees in Stockwell. So, yes, they do. They played a key role in supporting us with also celebrating local cultural and, you know, events focused on heritage promoting local culture by co-designing and co-delivering E to LGBTQ+, Friday of Portugal, Diwali, Black History Month, just to name a few. Help us a lot with archiving local history, fostering international collaboration as well by facilitating European literature networks and cultural exchanges. And this actually helped us to build relationships with embassies and cultural institutions in Europe, mainly with Poland and Portugal. Thank you all. Thank you. Appreciate that. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks very much. Now, let's move on to Jenny Iris, Irish from the Upper Norwood Library Trust. From this in person, that's great. You have three minutes. Upper Norwood Library Trust manages the broader use of the building at the Upper Norwood Library Hub to offer a diverse range of community led activities, room hire and events. We generate our income through a diversified income model and we reach the most vulnerable local residents with investment from multiple funders. We make a difference by empowering vulnerable residents to develop skills through literacy programmes, lifelong learning and we promote equality through information, education, wellbeing and creative programmes. Everything we do at the Upper Norwood Library Hub is underpinned by our unwavering support for the library service to support them to achieve their goals and performance targets. And is this collaboration has enabled the Upper Norwood Library Hub to thrive as a centre for education, culture and community development. In our experience, the library team goes above and beyond to help the most vulnerable residents with queries and supporting people's digital access needs and the numbers of vulnerable residents using the space and resources is high. The staff support people who often have very urgent needs, including people who present as homeless, women fleeing domestic violence, helping digitally excluded residents send emails and helping people access free digital resources, including SIM cards, all aligned to meeting Lambeth priorities. The team facilitates a well run volunteer program supporting many vulnerable residents to gain valuable skills within the library setting and activity sessions and events run by the library team are very well attended. For example, during Black History Month, Riggle and Rhyme weekly sessions and author activity sessions. And an integral part of the UNLT offer to vulnerable residents is linking up to the library to increase numbers of people engaging with the library service and the library team is always available if we want to introduce new users from our provision. We would welcome more joint working across the events annual calendar to create a cohesive offer because it can sometimes appear quite separate. We'd welcome exploring joint working opportunities to build longer term projects for the most vulnerable residents and also joined up marketing across our services so the offer becomes an extended offer. A more collaborative approach to marketing will benefit both the library service and UNLT. We'd also like to address the capital and infrastructure needs within the building in order that UNLT can utilise its resources effectively for the benefit of the community, including support for the most vulnerable residents. And recommendations to be considered. We would like to establish a framework for collaboration as we've proven our ability to grow a sustainable community organisation that protects and sustains a Lambeth Library service. And we would welcome working jointly to build a joint offer aligned with the Council's strategic objectives and our community mission. Collaboratively explore funding and operational solutions to address capital and infrastructure needs. And finally, security of tenure. Commit to completing lease negotiations with the Upper Norwood Library Trust to ensure the continued success of the partnership model and further expand opportunities to local residents. Thank you very much. OK, and last but not least, can we have Tony Seeley from the Black Men's Consortium who's joining us online, I think. Good evening, everybody. My name is Tony Seeley from the Black Men's Consortium. We are a. Intergenerational user group. We are an intergenerational user group that. We meet every Monday at Mosaic Clubhouse in Efra Road to improve our mental health and wellbeing. And access to services. And we've been meeting there for the last six years now. Basically, we have been using the libraries to raise awareness to the wider community and bring different communities together to find out. What goes on for black men of colour. In their in regards to the thoughts and feelings around services. And these community engagement. Events that we put on in the libraries. Are always highly turned out. We often have to. Yeah, close the door because of health and safety. People come and pack out. Brixton or Stratham library. And the feedback has always been positive from the library managers that we've worked with over the last six or seven years. And it's been very, very positive relationship that we've had with all of the managers of the libraries. And we just. Could not have had the impact if it wasn't really working in collaboration with the libraries that we've had. Over the years, so I just wanted to just share that. The libraries are a vital way for us to. Sorry, just to say the libraries are a vital way for us. To promote what we're doing to the wider community. And yeah, I'll leave it there. Thank you. That's good to hear. OK, thanks very much for all those contributions. As we also have received additional written submissions from the chair of Brixton Library Friends, Friends of Durning Library and the Carnegie Community Trust. So thanks very much for those written submissions as well as those received from the witnesses. Now let's move on to members questions. I'm going to think, unless there are any direct questions or witnesses, are there any? No, fine. OK, so as we've heard from a number of witnesses, plans to cut one million from the library's budget is a matter of great concern. Can you tell us what impact that will have, for example, on charges in libraries and also by deleting the vacant post and reducing overtime? Will that mean more unscheduled closures of libraries? Will that mean more of any of any of our libraries? Will that be addressed and we'll start and I think by getting to emphasize on the groundbreaking of my ideas of how I deserve to manage to be? From the indication of what I've seen is, again, I repeat, we have no intention of losing the library or any of our libraries. We have no intention of stopping our mobile library service. We also have no intention of stopping our service. We also need to be absolutely clear. My mission about what I said is efficient. In the last few years, I've checked my data. We have always had underspent in relation to power. Some of the savings are coming from the historical unspent. We cannot, constantly looking at what Lambert has always been accused in the past, that is a waste of money. We can continue carrying over budget annually when there is an underspent share. Another thing I would suggest is, yes, we did have vacancies and those vacancies have been, some of them, and then the service has still been, I just have to say, I don't do the operations. But from what I have and the knowledge I have been told is, that has not affected some of those services that have been provided in the library. And you could see from the report, the indication is the library service is post-COVID. It's getting where we were pre-COVID. Also knowing that, you know, the service we provide during the holidays period, the service we provide every tonight. Oh, Chia, I'll give you an example. There are a variation of things individuals can do for themselves. You know, we go to supermarkets. I'm not comparing before people accuse me. After a year, I think if the library is a supermarket, it's not. I went to Sutton, and I known Sutton, their libraries are self-service. So, if we have, and again, this is an example, if we have a room full of computers, and then individuals, and I've been to the separation of our libraries, individuals come with their own back-ups. Efficiency, we say that we will reduce some of those. I'm not saying we remove them completely. We remove some of those computers that we think often seems without being used. So, Chia, I emphasise the efficiency rather than cost. So, are you saying that, I mean, are charges for some of the services provided in the libraries going to, are they likely to increase? And in terms of the vacancies, are they spread across all the libraries? Or, because presumably in some of the smaller libraries with fewer staff, they're more at risk of having unscheduled closures if they've only got one or two staff? Do we use staff flexibly, or? I will bring Neil in. There are areas of relation to charges, for example, I'll use example photocopying. So, and again, based on our environmental commitments, we are trying to ask individuals to do less photocopying. And to do that, is that, you know, we need to, there's a percentage of increase. It's not, I think it's about, what is it? 50%. Yeah, in order, that is an example I will give you. And that is based on ecological and climate responsibilities. So, let's on to start, Neil. Yeah, so, so all the other charges, things like fines, be frozen and they won't be increasing. So, for the most part, fees and charges is very stable. There's just a few areas, as Councillor said, going up. In terms of staff, we're doing a lot of work reviewing our voters. So, we're looking at how we can be more efficient, looking at whether there is an opportunity to pair some libraries together. So that if, for example, there was a shortage in one area, we can move people between libraries. It gives us that efficiency. So, looking at some of the days in the week where maybe we have staffing when our libraries are closed, that we may move that pool of staff to an area when we're open. What I would say is, one of the reasons that the libraries run efficiently is that staff do work really hard. They're passionate. They're committed. But we're looking at how we can use some efficiencies in our voters to try and build some, some support in there. We know as well from some of the partnerships, Carnegie are willing to work with us to see how they can provide support maybe at lunchtime. So, it's about collaboration. I've been all would talk about collaboration. I think that's a really good way to generate some efficiencies as well in the way that we run some of those. So, it really is about having a more efficient rotor. We've been going through lots of different modelling of that. Looking at the minimum staffing levels need to be from a health and safety perspective, from a fire risk assessment perspective as well. We don't want to be in this situation where we have a million. It's just we have a fire. I'll leave it there. I think what we're probably looking for is reassurance around offering free space to local projects and community groups as well as keeping the opening hours good. So, I'm going to bring in Marianna, Annie, Alison, Nicole, Deepak and Ben. First of all, I'd like to just applaud the library services, which I've used from, I'm a Lambeth-born person. And actually, my earliest memories are escaping to, it was then Clapham Common Library. It was my safe haven. So, you do a phenomenal job and you can do a phenomenal job. I am worried and I think a lot of, we have been lobbied a lot with staff. So, there is a disconnect almost with what we're hearing from you and what staff are saying. So, maybe it is just a reassurance piece that jobs won't be at risk. So, I understand the efficiencies and moving people to where they're needed to be to work. But are there going to be any planned job cuts? That's something that really needs to happen, has to be dealt with and not, that's a really big fear. And also, the worry is a lot of the wonderful work that the staff have done, where I've actually reached out and asked about what was done for, say, refugees. And I've had staff members who have come in their own time. I've set up events and they've come and given out sims, as somebody was alluding to, and books and signed people up and really done a lot of outreach in my ward. I'm just worried about efficiencies, making people do more, whether that's the knock-on effect is that there isn't that capacity to do the wonderful work that staff are doing. Okay, Annie? I just wanted to know, there seems to be a lot of emphasis on making new spaces for hire. And I just wanted to know, what's the minimum and maximum income to be generated by the new spaces? Is all the money going to be earmarked for the libraries? And when is the online booking system going live? Okay, I can't deal with those. I didn't see a specific question. Is someone going to address both the job cuts issue and the issue about hire? I'll start. In relation to, I'll use the word, efficiency. If you look at what they are talking about, the $1 million, a lot of those are added to the income generation. If you look at our income generation again this year, I think it's over $400,000. So that $400,000 added into the efficiency. So we're generating income. So we're hoping, in relation to our additional work that has been done, that we go up. So in essence, I can just say that, proposing that, I missed a financial year when looking possible about $500,000. So, and again, that is the income we're generating from variation of activities in order to help the council's financial situation as part of the efficiency and savings that people are thinking about. In relation to, I have said this several times, and I repeat. From what I have seen, and how we have modelled, we do not think it will affect the library services. We do not think it will affect the opening hours. We do not think it's going to affect any of the library closions. So that is what, and I absolutely have confidence in the library team, and particularly the senior management team, that absolutely, categorically assured me that's the case. And I think, you know, we need to be absolutely careful. We are individuals who have grounds to criticise the council. And, you know, I repeat again, 99 libraries in London was closed off. Yeah, I was doing 900,000 in recent year. So we haven't done that. Yes, people are saying that our budget has been going off. Let's keep just answering the questions. Are there any job cuts? And when is the hiring? When should we go live? In relation to the staff. And again, there's a job for everybody. And one of the reasons for the disconnect is we haven't begun consultation with staff yet. So we met with the unions on Friday. We'll be meeting with staff next week, which will put some of those rooms. So it's just unfortunate the sequencing of, obviously, you hear a million and you assume the worst. But there is a job for everybody who's currently working in a library. And that's absolutely the whole premise that we've done, this free structure that we're doing. We also have about £157,000 that is over establishment in terms of a budget. So £157,000 of that million is instantly just from we have more budget than we needed. So there are some things there. The money is absolutely earmarked for libraries. In fact, we've been clawing back money. There was money that we drew from the picture house at West Norwood. We've got that back. So we're looking at all of our contracts that we have. The money that belongs to libraries is coming back to libraries. The online booking system, we've been told by the end of April, which will really help us to market these wonderful spaces. We haven't set a minimum or a maximum budget for our venues. But we're looking at venues beyond the realm of libraries to contribute towards that meeting as well, through some of the changes that we can start that next week. So some of the income from, for example, from Brockwell Halls, we're looking to get that. So it's more than library venues that see in multiple libraries. That's how we're going to try and support the libraries where we've got this challenge to deliver on income. So I think it's really showing actually the commitment is to invest in libraries. We're looking at efficiencies as well. We've installed the LED lighting. I'm going to leave there because we've got a lot of questions. Let's go to Alison. Thank you. Thanks very much. In 2023, there was a survey of library users. I wondered what happened in 2024. Bear in mind that library users might see the effect of restructuring slightly differently. Would there be a plan for a 2025 survey and a commitment to act on any potential shortfalls or indeed improvements and act on those responses? So we use the SIPPA survey, which is a national survey, although many authorities no longer do it. We'd normally do it every four years. So we did one in 2016. We would have done one, but then Covid came. So we did it in 2023. I think I'm not sure that SIPPA are continuing to do them, but I think it's a very valuable insight and a lot of the capital spending is profiled against that, what people want. And it actually saves us money if we can say, actually, we need more computers or we need more space where people use their own devices. So I do think we should find it's not that it's a few thousand. I do think it's worth finding that money in maybe 2026 to see the impact. It's very hard to do it until a change has happened. When you can see a change, you can then do a survey and then you can correct anything that you need to do. But all the time during change, people aren't quite sure what they're judging. So would you like to see a survey? I would like to. I mean, of course, I'd like to see a survey. Perhaps in 2026 when we are. Yes. And a commitment to act on any shortfalls for indeed to applaud in prison. Yes. OK, Nicole. Yeah, thank you. I've heard absolutely no justification at all. Cuts that you're suggesting. And then in fact, along with everything that we've heard tonight. And this report, this report is basically 25 pages of reasons why librarians and libraries need to be protected. It outlines all the essential services they provide. Universities, library essential services to multiple residents across all demographics. And they've done this without sufficient funding for decades, as we've already heard. In Strata, our librarians administer mental health support daily. They're counsellors to many members of the community. They're first aiders. Every day, local people go for help, having been sent by the job centre, the local CAF, the post office and others for help with forms and applications. They offer services to the community, not available anywhere else. It's a safe haylong and it's a sanctuary. Librarians are working additional hours, as we've heard, without pay and they are in danger of burnout. Laban has to look after these librarians. Everything they do needs protection. And there's a lack of sewn up thinking in my view, because essential services can't operate in silos. So diminished services in libraries, because of this diminished number of staff, will increase need elsewhere. So many of us rely on the services provided, especially the young and the old. Some of the most vulnerable in society. Now, Lambeth has said it's a child friendly, it's an age friendly bar. And yet services that those groups rely on are being diminished. So one of my questions is, if you're going to contemplate cuts or efficiencies as you're calling them, haven't yet decided what they're going to be, should they not be a complete risk assessment based on an FBI report in order to assist that process? Hopefully you'll actually pause the whole scheme. So that's one question. So it's about will you do a full risk assessment based on this report? And now my understanding is that there's currently 16 staff vacancies, and the idea is to not replace any of those 16. My question is, now you've said that there won't be any more staff cuts, which I understand is the case, but what if, will anybody who leaves the library service, will they be replaced? I'm going to take a few questions because we're a very tight agenda tonight. So I'm going to take Deepak and Ben and then perhaps deal with the questions then. So Deepak next and Ben. Thanks Chair. I think it's right that I start by applauding the library service for the work that they do and the recognition that they oversee through the British Book Awards. That's a significant achievement. So I just wanted to start by mentioning that. I think one of the concerns that has been heard tonight is around the additional strain that might be placed on the library service and its staff. and the fact that they are working hard already. I just wanted if there was any data on that around survey for the library service, current morale, current job satisfaction, whether that was being monitored at all. And secondly, on unscheduled closures or the prospect of unscheduled closures in the future. Firstly, I just wanted to respond to the director. I almost fell out my chair when he mentioned Carnegie Library and lunchtime. If I had a magic wand, I would love the fiscal position allowed for Carnegie to be open throughout lunchtime. So I had to say that. But on unscheduled closures, do we know the current situation now in terms of what's that like? So I think that then will help to understand risk that, you know, in that area. So just just the current situation in terms of any accidental closures across all the libraries. OK, I want to take Ben, then go to Ben. I've got three questions. It's probably wise to take the answers for these. OK, but that's we're going to have to be quite quick and say we've got quite a big agenda today. But OK, can you address then the issues that have been raised in terms of risk assessment and whether jobs will be replaced if they become vacant? And then data on the impact on Nibir staff of, you know, the pressures they're facing and about unscheduled closures. If you can be quite succinct, we'll be good because we've got... I'll just start by making one simple statement. What I do not want members to do is create anxiety. What also is not helpful is propaganda that are being peddled that are not accurate. To start with, we repeated and saying some of those efficiencies are coming as a result of underspend. All these efficiencies are coming from the income generation that are coming from the library added into that. And then also absolutely clear that what we're saying is it's not 16 staff. The vacancy is nine. Out of nine vacancies have been carried for about over a year. And we are saying that we have not been able to, we are not going to, you know, those things are going to add into the savings. Yes, as we go along, if there are risks in relation to the service, we will look at it again. In relation to, absolutely, the service is there for libraries and for communities. for their current additional burdens. Those burdens are saying whether it is to do with advice, relation of other things coming from agencies that are supposed to be doing those, pushing them into the library. We're again going to look at those. So I am not here to just making sure that individual services are protected as we continue saying there is a staff who are there at the present moment are not going to be affected. Some of them after the conversation might even go up. Some of them. Some of them have a variation of cross moving in relation to the service. So please, I plead instead of generating necessary anxiety, let's break the fact. Yeah, that's Neil. Okay. Just an issue on impact of library staff and what's happening about unscheduled closures currently. So we've had no unscheduled closures. We're working very closely to make sure that doesn't happen. We are looking at a more efficient rotor, as I mentioned, so that will enable us to deploy resource more efficiently. We are monitoring. Obviously, morale is not going to be high when there's a restructure looming. So we can have to manage people through that change, provide them with the necessary support. They do work hard and we recognize that and we will continue to support them through this change because we're looking for some slightly different ways of working. You know, so it's how we how we make sure we keep things open in terms of the vacancies. We're using some of those vacancies to bolster our weekend service as well. So it's not just vacancies are deleted. Vacancies are used to then grow. Vacancies in the week grow our operation at the weekend as well. Our ultimate goal, I think, should be that we look to extend our opening hours longer term because we're more efficient, because we're self-sustaining from a financial and commercial perspective. That's our ultimate goal. But for now, we will absolutely replace anyone as well who leaves. We have a compliment through the restructure. If someone leaves, they will be replaced. Can you come back on that? I just want to make one comment that nobody here, we're all champions of the library and nobody here is looking to create a problem. People are actually worried. Library stuff by their nature are sort of in jobs that aren't the best paid, but they absolutely love what they do. And so when a fear grips it, we've seen it in council, full council. So I would say I would turn back and ask for recommendation that perhaps communication with staff at an earlier stage would prevent a vacuum whereby people then fear for their livelihoods. When they do see the wider picture of London where library services are a threat, it's easy to extrapolate the worst case scenario. Nobody is fear mongering, just where vacuum has been allowed, fear happens. Okay, thanks very much. I'm going to move on to Ben now. Yeah, I've got three questions and I echo the comments on the library. I think, as we've identified, it's not just that what you're doing is kind of needs more scrutiny, but kind of also how it's been announced. And first question is, why does the decision come so late? I mean, this wasn't worth having it on there in December. And, you know, this was a bombshell, it was announced. We found out about it. I think we found out about this in February, you know, weeks, less than a week actually before the budget was agreed. Second question is, if there's been an underspend since 2018, why is this not identified? Yeah. Um, in the, uh, all council report, that's 16. So could you, I mean, whether or not it's 14 or 16. No, I guess I should think you can. And, and finally, was it wise to announce this without having conversations with the unions? It talks about conversations with the unions happening, uh, later this month. Was it a wise thing to do to announce these cuts without union involvement? And is there, uh, concerns within Lambeth about the possibility of industrial action? Well, I start in relation to why it wasn't in December. Um, I think everybody in this room who is a councillor is aware that, um, 14 years of austerity, operation of financial difficulties that local authority, not only Lambeth, has been going on, has been, uh, we have pressure in relation to our budget. So, well, in December, this, yes, absolutely, this wasn't at all identified savings. When, um, there were additional savings to be made, um, every department was asked to look at their underspends and efficiency savings that can be made in order to more or less really lessen the financial burden the council had. So each division was asked to look at for that savings. It worked through that and through the work of the finance team. And the senior leadership team that were efficient savings. At work, were identified in the library services, including, um, income generation that we have. So, and that is reason why it wasn't in December. But financial, um, recall. So, um, the rest are at snail. So in terms of the book fund and underspends, I think there are various reasons why we didn't necessarily spend all of our money on books. COVID was one of the reasons. So to cut your book fund just because you're not spending all isn't necessarily the right approach, unless you get into a scenario where the council has a legal obligation to balance its budgets. And we're in a scenario now where we have to reduce our revenue spend. But what we said all along is if we need more money for books, we'll use a different way of funding it through capital or whatever. We're responding to a council-wide financial pressure that we weren't aware of in December within the library service. So we've been responding to that since. Um, communication. A few people have talked about that. Absolutely. Um, the more communication may have helped in hindsight. Um, things I think happened quite quickly towards, uh, for council. Um, obviously that would have, uh, alleviated some of the anxiety. So I think we take that on board and I think when we meet with staff next week, that will further alleviate that anxiety. When we will see the recognition that we're looking to give them for the work that they do. Um, in terms of the vacancies, it's nine vacancies we're looking to delete once we repurpose the other vacancies over the weekends. So that's where those different numbers come from. Um, and I think, you know, how it was announced. Yes, I'm sure there are learnings and we take those on board. And that final point about industrial access to staffs. So I certainly hope not, um, that the, the, you know, we will engage with staff. Um, we're looking at no job cuts that dropped for everybody. Um, and that the people on the lowest salaries will benefit from this restructure that we're delivering, um, a million pounds of savings while recognizing the hard work of our lowest paid staff in London. Okay, I'm going to leave it there because we've got a few other items to, uh, cover and, well, particularly your recommendations. So, uh, I want to thank all those who've given evidence tonight and both in, in, in, in verbal evidence and also written evidence. So I'm going to try to capture some of the recommendations. So, um, first of all, continue to ensure. Lambert libraries acts community hub for local residents, offering free space for local projects and community groups. Working advantage and vulnerable without reducing opening hours. Uh, to ensure that there are no job cuts and future vacancies are filled and staff resources are used flexibly to avoid unscheduled closures of libraries. Um, you want to add to the work, the communications, I think. No, sorry, I'm, I'm, I'm going on. Okay. So, so, so, so to, um, undertake a, um, 2026 survey of library users to assess the impact of the changes, uh, ensure staff and their unions are better communicated with in relation to proposed changes to their terms of work at an early stage. Um, that is what I have. Does anyone, any additions or that, Deepak? Thank you, chair. As, as a cabinet member said, no libraries are being closed in Lamberth. Uh, opening hours are not being closed. At the same time, um, there are, uh, difficult, uh, decisions that need to be considered. And so I want to link it back to the point that I think one of the speakers have raised around not just working closely with the staff, but also with the library groups. Um, so making sure that there is that joint working, that joint collaboration and, and engagement in navigating that course. Okay. So work, surely work closely with friends of libraries and library trusts, um, to, um, develop these, um, versions. Um, just in, in, um, you know, it's laudable to try and get sort of more use, commercial use as well from groups, but can it not be a blunt tool? So there, can there be a scale for smaller groups? Um, overall, we want more people to use, more groups to use the library, but there are going to be some small groups that are still the barrier for the, the financial barrier. If we set a blunt price might be too much. So can we look at, according to maybe the size of the organization, what kind of costs, or maybe if there is an off peak time, just some kind of model. I said offering free space to local project groups, but also in terms of funds, because we can't always give everything for free. There might be a way of offering free space and a sliding scale and the sliding scale of charges. Add that to that first recommendation. Uh, and Nicole? Just wondering if previous recommendation that we actually recommend a bit of a cause so that there's a little bit of a, there is actually just to find some types of proper discussions, proper negotiations. Um, I'm not sure. I mean, to be honest with the budget having, I don't think that's feasible. I'm sorry. I don't know what other members feel, but. I agree it is. I don't think it's needed. I mean, it's been through the budget. Communication needs. Yeah, and the communication's vital. It wouldn't be better if it had been done at an earlier stage, but given we've already passed the budget, I don't think it's realistic to, um, just that. There's a couple of, um, recommendations that, um, made earlier, and I've been speaking for all those. And say specifically what you're saying to? So, um, would you like to capture that in a recommendation? So to, to, to, to, to examine, um, current leases? Completing lease negotiations with the Upper Newfoundland Trust to ensure the continued success of the Best Practice BCS Classship Model and further expand opportunities for local residents. It's one of them, and the other one was established a framework for collaboration, and it's, it's quite long, so. Um, okay. I think, I think the issue was, um, there was an issue from Brixton Library about making the website more user friendly, but I think the, uh, the other one from, from Norwood, was that about, was that about more collaboration and better joined up market? Yeah. To ensure there's more collaboration and better joined up marketing across Lambeth Libraries, including a more cohesive annual events calendar? I think that was that one. From, from Upper Norwood? Yeah. Okay. Okay. And, okay. And, okay. And, and to examine, um, current leases and, um, secure, and ensure, uh, security of tenure for, this was a specific point in terms of Upper Norwood, wasn't it? The Upper Norwood Library. Negotiations. To, um, coming. So, so, so to conclude our discussions on, on the lease. Lease negotiations with the other Norwood Library Trust to ensure the continued success of the best practice of BCS partnership model for expanded opportunities. I think I'm going to say is, is report back committee on, on lease negotiations, report back to OSC on current lease negotiations. I think that's probably. Well, given we haven't actually discussed the item. Okay. And we need to move on to the next item. We happy now with those recommendations. I want to say thanks again to those who contributed this evening. So we now move on to the second item of core business. The next item. It's meeting, which is how the council support culture and performing arts. all know that Lambeth has a very diverse, creative sector and well-renowned institutions on the South Bank and the Old Vic, grassroots organisations. It makes a huge contribution to Lambeth. It is the council providing sufficient support. Uh, we'll first hear from the cabinet member for Stronger Communities. Please, we'll ask us, you have up to five minutes to introduce the report. I'm not going to take off to, um, the time. I mean, I got Neville, Marat, they didn't, and then, who is there. So, um, they can't tell me where they, where they didn't come. So, absolutely, these of you will have seen the report. This is, again, to showcase the strength of Lambeth as a cultural and artistic hub, whether it is digital or otherwise. And then also shows the collaborative work we are doing with variation of our partners. And then also the element of spaces that we created. The programs about Elevate. The business support network we've done. And then, again, here from the report, shows you, again, a level of income generation or that economy that is crucial. in relation to Lambeth economy, which is, again, through our creative industry. Our partnerships that we have with our institutions, whether it is the ones in Norwood, again, small organizations, to, um, Stratham's, um, Space Project, to Black Cultural Archives, to, um, National Theatre, to Old Vic Youngville. So, it shows the level of, um, work we do and how we are not only regional or national hub. We are a global hub, we are a global hub going on to arts and culture. So, I leave it there and I'm absolutely certain to answer questions that, uh, people need to ask. And, uh, I wonder whether the team, um, Nabal, if there's anything you need to add? I think what I'm going to do, I'm going to take the witnesses first and then, um, officers can answer, um, questions. So, we've had a request to speak, um, from three people. So, we've got, first of all, um, Caroline Burry, who's the founder and CEO of the Burry Academy, who's joining us online, I think. Hiya, can everybody hear? Yes. Hiya. Um, thank you for having me this evening. So, the Burry Academy, we're a performing arts organization based in Vauxhall, and we're dedicated to providing accessible and high-quality arts education and opportunities to young people aged 4 to 24, as well as their caregivers. Um, we work with over 750 young people a week currently out of our hub in Vauxhall, and we have a strong focus on building resilience in young performers and understanding how arts and wellbeing intertwine. So, we're trying to prepare young people for success and exploring how the arts can benefit individuals from the community who need early intervention. Our overall mission is to remove financial and social barriers to arts participation and ensure that all young people, regardless of background, can engage with culture and performance. We have worked with the Lambeth Culture team a lot, um, as well as the Youth and Play team, and they've given us some vital support in lots of different ways. We've received, um, multiple grants from the Elevate Education project, including, um, facilitating a flash mob for three and a half thousand young people, um, from schools. We also received funding for internships with the Elevate Careers, um, for young people not in employment education or training, and we also had capital works through the repurpose grant. Our studios is on the disused top floor of Wyville Primary School, and through that grant we have created a really professional space for young people in the community. Um, they've provided us with opportunities for collaborations. We've successfully linked up with other voluntary sector organizations, um, and we feel that the culture team are very highly responsive and supportive to the grassroots organizations in our experience. We feel like their events are really well planned and that the grant process is fair and seemingly accessible. If we had any areas for improvement, um, it's the elephant in the room and there's been a lot of conversation about cuts tonight. Um, but there is a lack of core funding for grassroots organizations, and we feel that investing in smaller organizations now leads, um, it saves money in the future. Because cuts to arts organizations lead to higher social care, mental health, and crime intervention costs later down the line. Um, we think that there's a lot of funding gymnastics when it comes to project grants where actually you mentioned a lot of very successful Lambeth cultural organizations that are already well known and what everybody is struggling for is core funding. Um, we feel that external communications and visibility, um, is not amazing. We think that there is a brilliant work being done across the whole of Lambeth's cultural sector, but we have the opportunity within Lambeth to really show off and showcase as the borough that is the best place to grow up. And we think that the council probably has better budget and influence than any of us grassroots organizations to be able to show that. Um, and then in our recommendations, we've mentioned things like a charter mark. If that was possible for the grassroots organizations that are working with Lambeth Council, as it would just give more confidence to communities, to residents and then to the bigger national organizations when we're trying to partner with them. Um, I'm going to stop you there. We have your written submission as well. Thanks so much. Um, let's now move to Mark Paul from the Southbank Centre. Good evening everyone. Can you hear me? Yes. All right. Great. Thank you. Uh, thank you for inviting me to, uh, to, to address the scrutiny committee. Um, and you've had, you've had a written submission from us, but the Southbank Centre is at the very heart of a cultural and creative ecosystem. That stretches along the whole of the river into Waterloo, but also across London and the whole of the UK supporting artists, innovation, jobs, and visitors across the creative economy. We're also deeply proud to be based in Lambeth and to see ourselves as a local art centre contributing to the life of the borough and its communities. And actually next year's 70th anniversary of the Royal festival hall and the festival of Britain, which is a seminal moment in the history of the borough. Uh, uh, and a moment where the, in 1951 that saw the country's first cultural regeneration project. And we're talking to your teams actually about how we can really collaborate and elevate that moment and create a meaningful, a meaningful festival, not just for London and the country, but for the residents of communities of Lambeth. I'm really pleased to say I've been at Southbank Centre for three years and in the time that I've been there, we've seen a very strong relationship with the wider council and with the culture team. To the extent that I think we do feel that we're kind of strategic partners in the council's endeavors to ensure that arts and culture are available for all of its residents. Uh, we've been very closely involved in the development of the creative industry strategy. We've worked on programs like, we've worked on programs like Elevate, Future Connected, which we've hosted. Uh, we regularly support Lambeth music service with events at the Southbank Centre. We've contributed to the engine of the engine of the recovery report. Uh, and we're exploring, you know, major other collaborations, particularly around skills development and wellbeing, uh, which are two key areas. Uh, ensuring that residents and communities of Lambeth can engage with and develop the work of the Southbank Centre is really, really important to us. It's one of our highest priorities. And we very recently in the past nine months created a very specific new role called the Community Connector, which isn't based at Southbank, but it's based out in Lambeth communities to act as a conduit between Lambeth communities and the Southbank Centre. And to be, uh, uh, somebody on the ground who's able to connect to those communities and allows us to hear what those communities want out of the Southbank Centre. In practical terms, our relationship with the wider council is strong, particularly with the planning and development teams. Uh, uh, uh, and we have a lot of, we have a very, a very good relationship with planning. We have a lot of planning, of planning, uh, uh, of, of planning applications and planning, and planning consent issues. Uh, and we work with the, uh, development teams around events like BAFTAs and the spine redevelopment schedule. Uh, I mentioned supporting wellbeing and development of skills and training for local communities is really important with us. And that's, uh, that's, uh, uh, uh, something that we're able to engage with the council on. We are looking to, uh, create a new permanent, uh, uh, resource for young people who are suffering with mental health challenges, uh, within Lambeth, Southbank and the wider South East London community. And we're involved in consultation with your colleagues about how to develop that creative youth health centre and provide opportunities for local residents. So the relationship is working well. I think just, uh, you know, inevitably there, there are, I think some improvements that we can make. I think just as in, in relation to, to, to the previous speaker, I think we want to see how we can work with you more effectively, sir. I'm going to stop you there because you've had your time, but we have the next questions. Thanks so much. And then, uh, last but not least, we move to Skye Kozier, who's a Lambeth elevator. Good evening, everyone. Can everyone hear me okay? Yep. Perfect. So my name is Skye Kozier. I'm here on behalf of the Elevate Lambeth program today. I'll just dive into a little bit of what Elevate Lambeth does. So essentially we are a youth advisory board made up of eight individuals. And our aim is to create, um, creative opportunities for young people within Lambeth. We achieve this through providing grants and producing internships and boot camps for younger people. Some examples of the groups we work with is SEND children, neurodivergent individuals. I guess my duty is to evaluate the young people. So we work with to make sure that we're supporting them the best way possible. And that what we're delivering is as beneficial as possible as well. I believe that, get my notes here. My feedback is that there is room for improvement in terms of the digital outreach that we have, in terms of youth engagement and obviously the issue that keeps being brought up as well, core funding. I believe a social media presence for Elevate Lambeth first would be good. This is something we have brought up on numerous occasions, but we have been told that it needs to be approved first by someone. I feel that there is a need for peer to peer engagement and having that platform to do so would help push that and helpfully increase the demand of what we're delivering as well. As I mentioned before, funding, consistent issue that's being brought up. We're finding ourselves increasing in demand in terms of the internships that we're providing, work placements that providing. More people are interested with more people that become interested. There's obviously a need for more funding to help these young people that are clearly interested in moving into these creative platforms. Social media presence and funding go hand in hand, as I was saying before, with the increase and demand that is growing for our internships. We need to be able to accommodate for more people. And yeah, that's that's my notes. Thank you very much. That's great. Thanks. OK, so thank you very much for those contributions. We also have some additional written submissions from through the lab, from Studio Voltaire and from the Omnibus Theatre, which I'm sure everyone's read. And now we're going to turn to members questions. And I'm going to start off by asking the cabinet member whether you think the Council could do more to promote the borough's cultural provision, especially to raise the profile of grassroots organisations, their events and to increase audience engagement. Of course, there's always room for improvement. I think I have to say the team are absolutely keen to continue working with our institutions and our grassroots organisations, Caroline, who I know very well, also Mark and everybody else. We are continuing to continue seeing. We are the hub of culture in London and globally, so we could design how we communicate this effectively to reach all sections of our communities. And I think, you know, the organisations and institutions I talk to are absolutely keen to do exactly the same whether it is our Satbank team or other institutions. So, and as Rudy, who is the Assistant Director, and who is the Strategic Director, they can add more relation to how we can increase the level of communication with the guru as well and showcase what we do. I mean, can I specifically ask whether we could do more to support grassroots organisations access funding for people like the Arts Council, for example, and the Greater London Authority. And secondly, what do you think of Sky's proposal that there should be a separate social media platform for Elevate again to promote that youth engagement and to provide much more information about what they do? So, in lesson to Sky's question, Brody, do you want to comment there? Thank you, Councillor. Let me, do you mind if I jump in first and I'll bring in Matt? Sure. That would be quite succinct because we have another item, as you know. Yes, of course, of course. I mean, the first thing I thought would be helpful just just for just for committee members is just situating where the culture team is. I think that's helpful because then that will help answer the question. I'll bring Matt in to answer the question about more access for some of our grassroots organisations. So we took a very deliberate decision here at Lambert post COVID to situate the culture team within the economy team. And I think you've heard from some of our valued partners some of the benefits of that. And one of the chief sort of benefits that I've seen in my time here is the economy team, the planning team, the development team have got much deeper reach and access to parts of the community that perhaps other parts of the business may not have. And that was a deliberate decision that we took to situate the culture team within that. And that has sort of paid dividends. And I'm pleased to say sort of three years on following the creative industry strategy, we've already done a lot. And we do, you know, we do have 27 NPOs within Lambert. So that's national portfolio organisations. We've got over 2000 creative businesses in the borough. There is a lot of grassroots organisations, I think, is what I'm trying to say with limited reach that we have. But having said that, there's a very successful track record in getting funding and getting GLA grants and also Arts Council involvement in some of our grassroots. But let me bring in Matt to answer your specific question on that point. Matt. Thank you, Nabil. Yeah, just two points to add. The first is that the report references the production of a refreshed creative strategy for the borough. What we found is that having that strategy in place since 2018 has really, really helped organisations with their fundraising efforts. So having a refresh strategy that puts the work of grassroots organisations in the context of the borough's issues and opportunities, provides data, and enables them to express to funders how their work aligns with the council's agenda. That's all really, really helpful for fundraising. So we hope that that will help. The second point I want to make is that the government, I think, are about to do a kind of formal review of Arts Council England. As Nabil has mentioned, that's a massively important funder for very many organisations in the borough. And the team have just been discussing convening grassroots organisations, along with big organisations like the one Mark represents, to discuss that Arts Council review with a view to Lambeth being able to collate the views of organisations within the borough and submit that as part of a kind of Lambeth wide response to that Arts Council review, as that has such an important funding link for many organisations in the borough. And specifically the idea that there should be a separate social media platform for Elevate? Yes, I think that's probably one that we should take away. I think sometimes we've had challenge from members and others that the council has too many different communications channels. And so whilst we kind of appreciate Sky's point absolutely and the importance of social media for the young people audience of Elevate, I think we'd have to take that away and consider it in relation to other channels that already exist. For example, we have we already have the Lambeth made social media channels that are a kind of route to young people and it's possible that maybe we can do more to communicate, elevate through that existing channel. Yeah, I think it comes actually quite a lot of other people have been talking about the need for having a much more cohesive promotion and perhaps goes against that. I just I just wanted to kind of explore your thoughts on that anyway. But yeah, thanks. Thanks for that. So I've got David first. David, then Nicole, then Mariana and then Deepak. Anyone else? I'm missing one. So David first. I think it speaks quite well after the question there. Chair, it's really so good luck with charities, not just in production. I cannot say it. The speakers have said it's evil. And if you read the documents as well, it's the about how the small organisations when they get fundraised. It tends to be so I know they'll give you money for a particular project or a particular thing. It seems to be a lot harder to actually get your core expenses for existing. It's not just in this area as well. It's so look with the actual economies of his costs going up. It's a lot harder to actually cover your core costs. It's very good things are. I just wondered if what Bramsell's attitude is to actually funding this sort of thing for not all organisations and funds, but to look more at this establishing and funding for not just aiming at particular projects that come and go and then maybe leave an organisation in great difficulty once the project's finished. So you're talking about a core funding, a core funding kind of pot in effect for some organisations. To keep an organisation going as opposed to funding projects that they do. I wish we have empty bags of money going on in relation to variation of ways. You know, we have our Community Connection Fund, we have Social Fund, we have things that, you know, have a kind of financial and variation of funding that local authority will make available. But also bearing in mind that the Council will also have other stress in relation to finance. What we're trying to do is, I continue to say to organizations, we are a nebula. What we do is to assist organizations in relation to provision of projects they run, and then also we have Integrate, which supports organizations in relation to feed, and then also Matt and the team also used to have, still do have support, they provide to grassroots organizations with funding. So I cannot sit here and say, I will commit parts of money in that it doesn't exist. What I need to do is, what can we do as an nebula in order to enable organizations to get support for relation to other ways. Our fund is a supporting group to say, the council supports us with funding, we can go somewhere and get more, particularly our core funding. So that's only thing I would suggest. Also working with the GLA, which the team, and we work very well in Lambert, as Matt mentioned earlier, Lambert, we got the highest amount of funds in relation to LPO. So that does exist because of the work being done. Working with the master and the team in also looking at, from the economic aspect, what we used to do in order to create opportunities and space that help them to stabilize themselves, and then from there, get additional funding. David, do you want to come back? David, do you want to come back? Oh, just financial constraint, really. OK, I'm going to move on to Nicole. Yes, thank you. So as we've got amazing arts and culture in Lambert, it does make it such an incredible place to live. And as we know, there's really great family-friendly events, especially at Saturday night, and especially when they work a lot for schools. But it's really, really expensive to go to some of these places, so there are amazing venues, and there's a lot of Lambert residents who can't actually access them. And I know there are some schemes and there's free tickets available for school students and so on. But I'm wondering if Lambert County Council has actually ever looked at running a scheme alongside those organisations to be able to offer reduced price tickets to residents, and could it be included in the new strategy next year if it is a scheme that could be feasible? I just also just say, because I'm a bit worried, the risk register on the report is looking too good. There's a lack of funding, as we know, and the staff freeze causing a serious impact on the team. I'm worried about this because it seems quite short-sighted, even the social value, employment and financial benefits of the thriving cultural sector, all of the things that speak all so great about this. And if there's any response actually about how the team is going to survive in the next year or so, and also be able to take full advantage of every single funding stream. I'm worried that if the team is diminished, that it's going to diminish your ability, I know you're very, very good at this at the moment, to actually be able to chase the funding streams and exploit something that's out there. Would you like to respond? Well, I start and then Matt and Nabel and Brody can come in if they want to. I echo what you said in relation to which is possible the credit we can evade that we are a very cultural hub and the absolute right. We work loosely with all our institutions in order to make sure that those who are on the court will see that that is always my challenge to say how could we make art and culture to be accessible for all sections of our communities. I also know, and I absolutely say, this is not because they are not in agreement. It's just to find the way this has happened. And I know having this council for many years, it did exist where Lambert residents used to get a 20% discount and then also free tickets. So what has happened was those tickets were not absolutely taken. So, and I think having a conversation with old Vic and young Vic in the past. So where they have to stand outside dishing out tickets because those tickets were not taken instead of their space, they are acting or performing and the place is empty. So those tickets were handing out to individuals who are not Lambert residents. So we need, if this needs to happen, then it also will work for the institutions. But now what I know in South Bank, there are kind of things they do two o'clock or three o'clock things they could for free, doing that additional. So we need to work out how then it can work and work for them as well. Mariana, can you come back? Yeah. What I was asking about was a discounted ticket scheme, because I can see how that whole free ticket, you allocate 100 seats and you don't get your tickets and you don't get bums on seats. But if you actually could offer discounted price tickets to Lambert residents, and that would work more, then you wouldn't lose out. That's the sort of scheme. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And again, that discounted does happen. And I think some of our South Bank and Waterloo institutions used not only offered to Lambert, because also South Bank, because it's very close to those. So, Mark, does it still exist, some of the discounts that some of our institutions... And Mark, you are also on here, but you can answer those questions as a partner. Sorry, go on, Mark. I didn't say it. I've misheard whether you were saying Mark or Matt there, but Matt, if it's for you, I'll... It's you, Mark. It's me, okay. Yeah, so we do offer discounted tickets. I think it's not quite as simple as just providing discounted or free tickets and expecting that people will come, because the barriers for people coming are multiple. It's about transport. It's about access issues. And I think it's about general awareness of the cultural offer. So I think in a way it needs this kind of more integrated approach and integrated understanding for how we engage with Lambert communities and bring Lambert communities into the life of our cultural institutions. You know, as I said, it's not just about pricing. If you're a family of four and you've got to get on the train from Tulsa Hills coming to the South Bank, that's kind of quite an expense. So I think ways in which we can work with the council to help promote what cultural organisations are doing. 40% of everything we do is free. So, you know, pricing isn't a barrier, but other things are a barrier. Ways in which we can work with the council to work with TfL to promote the value of arts and culture more deeply to residents. I think it's a more, I think that will start to kind of reap a dividend. I think it's a slightly more complicated picture than just saying have discounted tickets or three tickets, albeit they're part of the menu that will help bring people in. They're not the only thing. OK, thanks very much. I'm going to move to Mariana. Yeah, I wanted to talk about my experience when I worked in the city. I worked for Bloomberg and there was quite a healthy philanthropic programme where we looked at quite a small at the time. It was a small theatre. It was a tricycle in Kilburn and the then director was Nicholas Kent. And we had a deal where we would every quarter bring a bunch of children and pay for transport. We have a coach and then they would watch. You know, it was quite a sort of there was quite similarities between Lambeth and Kilburn in terms of demographic. And so there were really, really amazing plays that they would see. And then afterwards, what they didn't realise is there was a buffet and the actors would come down and they would they would be amongst them. And I just wondered what, you know, there's creative things like that that happen with the corporate world. What we're doing to engage, given that we have world class theatres and even, you know, and even the small theatres are just amazing, innovative places. What we're doing with the corporate world. And then I also wanted to touch on another experience I've had as a guys and Thomas's governor, where there was a widening participation team that actually got involved in a neurodiverse project. I think it was been touched on Sky mentioned sort of that area. And again, what we can do about connecting not just with the organisations, but with, say, London, the South Bank Technical College and actually going out to schools and getting, you know, apprenticeships and maybe move it. Maybe us, because we're an enabler, moving them around different organisations so they can have experience in set design, front of house, hospitality, costume design. There's so much. And I think that, you know, without great investment and then working with the GLA, we could perhaps do more in that regard as well. So there's why. Yeah, can I just come. Yeah, please. Again, um. Professor Masters, if you look up. That's basically what you're talking about. I can't hear you. Can you pick up? So I was saying if she looked at our elephant. I get the news releases. This is basically what it's all about. Working from school to the age of 30, making individuals into, Sky was talking about those. Individuals from school into the, getting into the cultural and relative industry. Are they doing exactly what you are talking about? And also know that our institutions, you know, again, give Old Vic as an example, have a community. They do. They're showing to people coming in, learning how to act, performing. So again, I've been there where they perform during Christmas and variation of things. And again, enabling them into getting into the industry. So from variation of. Ethnicity to variation of working life. So we do have those. And I think we need to improve. Is either to. Me and the team. And then also our partners, how we communicate this. And one of the questions you ask is how do we actually make ourselves, you know, hard and showcase what we do. So I don't know whether anybody else will ask to that. But. Well, come back. I think. Yeah, I just. I was going to. I was. I was going to make the point. The councillor on the annuals made actually in the report. You'll find hopefully councillors from sections 2.3, 9 to 2.6, 4. I'm sure it details out at some at some length, actually exactly everything that you were referring to the councillor in terms of how we work with our partners, how we actually drive opportunity to do that for young people. And then how we follow through with some of the employment offers at the end. So I think we are always keen to hear more and always keen to know more what more we can do. But there is already a vast amount of programs that are currently underway that are delivering importantly already. So I think it's about building on the good stuff that's already happening to go to, to make, to make, to make this great rather than starting from scratch. I would. Mary, I'll come back first and I'll go to Caroline. Okay. No, no, it's phenomenal work. I would just say. And I have actually gone to the Young Vic where they were giving out awards and they had people, they had young people that had graduated. It was fantastic. But it's not widespread. They're pockets. So, for example, if you were to go to Bishop Thomas Grant or you go to Dunraven or I mean, and we're all represent different wards. How well known is this across the peak, across the borough? So that's, you know, it's like spreading best practice everywhere. That's my ask. Okay. So I think we can capture that in terms of the promotion of the borough's cultural provision. Okay. Caroline wanted to come in. Sorry. I'll be very, very speedy because I think you just wrapped up. I was just going to say that actually, again, the cultural team have been brilliant at most of those things on that list. And I was, as a grassroots organization, vouched for the fact that all of those things are happening. The demand really outstrips our capacity to deliver it, though. So we have a child who made his West End debut last Monday as little Michael in the West End. But we can't afford to take all the children to go and see it. They would be there in a heartbeat. Or we do get offered free tickets from the Old Vic to go and see things like Christmas Carol. But the consideration is the cost of getting them all there. Whenever we take a group of 30 children to the train station, we as the grassroots organization are going to pay for about 25% of those train tickets. So that's the barrier. It's not that these things aren't existing. It's more in schools. This is not a Lambeth level thing, but arts education has been so slashed that it's not seen as important by the school or by the parents. So it's a far broader issue rather than something that I think is wrong within the cultural team. I actually think they've kind of nailed this access to tickets and access to careers thing so far. OK, thank you. Deepak? I think my questions have been addressed, Jack. OK, fine. In which case I'm going to dive in with something. And that is asking, what do you think of the proposal again from Caroline, that Lambeth should develop a Lambeth Chartermark to provide accreditation for trusted cultural providers to enhance their credibility and recognition and create stronger partnerships for local schools, businesses and rents. And then build on Marianne's point. Well, it's something we can think and have a look at. As people know, we also have variation of civic awards. We have variation of awards. In other words, we do have recognition to recognising organisations and our part and cultural events that we do and those things we recognise organisations. So we do have systems that we recognise groups, but this charter one is something we could take and have examined. OK, thank you very much. OK, I'm going to try to summarise the recommendations. So only if you want to make amendments. So seek to do more to promote the borough's cultural provision, especially to raise the profile of grassroots organisation, promote their events and activities and increase audience engagement, possibly through the use of reduced price tickets and other initiatives. To ensure the Council continues to support grassroots organisations to access funding from, for example, the Arts Council and the Greater London Authority and the Shared Prosperity Fund. And then to consider developing a Lambeth Charter Mark to increase the recognition, credibility and partnerships for trusted cultural providers. I think there was an issue about kind of forging partnerships. The Council take a more active role in forging partnership between large national arts organisations based in Lambeth and grassroots providers. And I guess Donata has touched on, I remember, integrate is great, is fantastic in terms of showcasing where the funding is. But perhaps we could work with more commercial partners so that so the banks, for example, who all want, you know, they might have an arts division and they might look at. I think I know Lloyds, Lloyds Bank has gotten massively into that. So there might be a wider pool of commercial partners. So engage more extensively with commercial partners to encourage involvement and take up cultural activities. To encourage the involvement, provide funding, provide funding and sponsorship of cultural activities. If you could catch up to them. We had these events before where we brought corporate bodies in meeting some of our organisations and did stop because of COVID. So this year we are planning in order to bring that back where corporate organisations. OK, so the website works for that. Corporate organisations where, so that there we meet some of our institutions and some of our organisations. And then they can then do is more like a marketplace. OK, OK. So it's something we are planning. OK, because that's good. So we'll take that recommendation. We can we can work on that. OK. Can I just say something very quickly? OK, quickly. I want to say something really positive. I'm really, really pleased to see the initiatives to make places more accessible for disabled people and also the provision for SEND children and creative activities. So well done. Thank you. OK, so thanks very much again for those people who have given witness statements, those people who provided written evidence and officers for responding to all the questions. Now we move on to the third item called business for tonight's meeting, which is the nighttime economy. The council is developing its first nighttime strategy, but will it meet the challenge in the nighttime economy to deliver for residents, businesses, workers and visitors who spend time in numbers at night? So we're going to first hear from the cabinet member for Economic Inclusion this time. Marcia, you have up to five minutes to introduce the report. Thank you. Before my five minutes start, I just want to recognise that we've got Michael Kill, who is CEO and Director of Nighttime Industries. Oh, no, no, no, no. In fact, I have to update you. Unfortunately, Michael Kill, who was due to be a witness, now has had to leave. But we do have his written statement. So that is helpful. So, so, Marcia, go ahead. Nighttime strategy supports the borough's plans and goals of making Lambeth a place where everyone can call home. The background of this report is in November 2022 Lambeth Council received 130,000 from the GLA to establish a nighttime enterprise zone in Vauxhall. The programme focused on four key objectives. Extend high street activities after 6pm to increase business income and foot traffic. Improve access to shops and services for residents and visitors after 6pm. Foster a welcoming and inclusive high street for all after 6pm and enhance work conditions for night workers. The borough has a range of large nighttime anchor venues, including the world class and cultural institutes, as we know, at South Bank, O2 Academy, the Young Viet and Old Vic theatres, Electric Brixton and Keir Oval Surrey Cricket Ground Club. The programme has successfully organised 24 nighttime events, attracting over 15,400 visitors and boasting foot traffic by 13% from 6pm to midnight and by 26% from 9pm to midnight, spending rose by 31% between 6pm and 9pm. The night time enterprise zones engaged 400 businesses and created a night time business forum and toolkit. The initiative was promoted through the Vauxhall night brand and social media campaign that reached 2.89 million impressions. The programme profoundly unveiled two vibrant morals and celebrating the rich Portuguese speaking LGBTQ plus communities. Thanks to the Council's dedicated business sign-up for women's night safety charter, it soared three-fold. Nine businesses emerged as safe havens for women and girls and vulnerable individuals, while ten others were honoured as Lambeth allies, creating a welcoming space for LGBTQ people. A comprehensive evaluation of the programme's remarkable achievement is available in the Mayor of London's 2024 nighttime enterprise zone evaluation online. The night time economy is defined as an economic activity between 6pm and 6am and includes diverse sectors like healthcare, transport with an estimated value of £40.1 billion across London. The draft night time strategy outlines actions in four themes, business enabling, safety, local culture, visitor economy and environment. And lastly, it will address specific actions for Lambeth's business improvement districts, including Brixton, Clapham, Southbank, Streatham, Foxwall, Waterloo and West Norwood. Thank you very much. We have now two requests to speak. First of all, we've got Dominic Madden from Electric Brixton. Good evening. Nice to speak to you all. Thank you for making some time this evening. So before I start this evening, I just wanted to give some context to who I am. Electric Brixton is fairly self-explanatory building given its key location in Brixton. I basically launched Electric in 2010. It is now, of course, an iconic music venue with both a national and an international audience. And it's one of the UK's premier live music and music late night music venues. And quite significantly for us, it's also become an asset of community value more recently. And it plays a vital role in supporting the local economy by drawing many thousands of people to Brixton's High Street every year. Just to step back a few years, in 2010 when I actually took over the lease of the electric, it was then called the Fridge. And we were under quite significant pressure from stakeholders in Lambeth, councillors and the police, who wanted to see the venue closed. And that was due to a myriad of licensing issues that the building had suffered. Now, I recognised at the time, and still do clearly, the cultural impact of the Fridge and then before that it was the Ace, etc. But most significantly, the cultural impact of that building went far beyond the local area of Brixton and Lambeth. So when I was faced with having to relaunch the venue, I focused on creating a touring standard live music venue because I could see that effectively live music was a way of regenerating that building to become a kind of preeminent space for entertainment for London and for Lambeth. And I'm pleased to say that in the 15 years that we've been operating and we've had millions of people come through the doors. We've hosted the most culturally significant of artists and both DJs and bands. Even last week we had Louis Tomlinson, which caused chaos in our high street. We refurbished the building and it was quite a substantial project at the time. We upgraded facilities and now I'm pleased to say they're proud to say that since the Electric opened in 2011, it's become a very thriving and important music venue and part of Lambeth's nighttime economy. And the wider cultural, it's a culturally important venue in Lambeth and in London. And it plays a pivotal role in sort of artist progression from small venues to larger arenas. And dare I say it, for acts on the way down to when they're sadly not quite as popular as they used to be. Over 175,000 people come through the Electric every year and the next year we expect it to be over 200,000. Now the reason why I give you this background is because running music venues in 2025 could be described as fairly challenging. And I must say, providing further context, I'm delighted to say that the Electric is now a national success. Thank you, thank you very much. You've had your time. Thank you. OK, thank you. OK, so we now move on to Mario Schifano from San Marino, which is a favourite horn for many people. So welcome. Good evening chair, counsellors and everyone. OK, my name is Mario Schifano. I'm the owner of San Marino since 1993. I've been in Brixton over 50 years, probably a little bit more, let's keep it at 50. I live and work and shop and socialise in Brixton. I'm also one of the founders of the Brixton Bridge, probably about 11 years ago. I class my business as a safe haven. I mean, we open at 6.30 in the morning and we close around 2, 2 o'clock in the evening. So we pretty much know what's going on in Brixton at any one time, seven days a week. OK, night time economy, where do we start? OK, crime is forever increased in Brixton. Antisocial behaviour, aggressive begging. Mental health challenges are quite huge in Brixton. Hospitality has had its problems. We've had Brexit, Covid. The closure of the academy was huge for the area, for the local economy. 5,000 people, maybe three or four times a week. Spending money throughout the whole day. Hotels, shopping and what have you. Cost of living crisis now is upon us. So I guess that's even another challenge for the hospitality. Many of the businesses, local businesses that have been here for a long, long time have closed, such as Dogstar, Rump Kitchen, Market House, to name a few. Business is very hard. I believe that probably the safety of the public is paramount. I mean, for people to come back to Brixton and to feel safe in Brixton families. We are having to employ security. I mean, probably because you've got tables and chairs outside and to make sure that the customers feel safe. Not being harassed, which they often do throughout the whole day, even the evening. I think Lambeth, the police, Brixton Bid and the community need to come together and try and resolve all these problems and issues. It's not going to happen, I don't know. I mean, it's been a slow deterioration, I guess. And I think where there's less money, there are more problems. And I think that's that's one of the problems that need to be addressed. So I'm quite happy. I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. I love it. It's amazing. It's full of everything you would need, really, to enjoy, you know, for the culture. It's absolutely amazing. So basically, I think, you know, it's going to be a communal land of police working together to try and resolve a lot of these issues. Any questions? Thank you very much. We've also received written evidence from the Music Renews Trust and the Nighttime Industries Association. OK, so just picking up first on the issues that Mario raised, what's being done to address safety issues at night? To make people feel safe and able to use the... OK, sorry. Just reminded me that standing orders, we need to agree to extend the time of this meeting. Can we extend the 9.30? Yes, it is. Thank you very much. So sorry to return what we're doing about safety issues at night to make people feel safe and come out of life. Yeah, we're doing several things and perhaps Matt and Brodie might want to jump in too. And we're working more closely with licensing and we're collaborating on initiatives like Golden Scent World Food Feast and public space agreements for outdoor businesses, business spaces. And licensing as also fed into the night time strategy and they'll also have a role on the delivery of it. Also, we're looking at updating training of licensing premises. And we're also in regards to the Safer Lambeth Partnership Executive and we've presented the night time strategy to them and they are fed into it as well. And with the public protection, we work with public protection to coordinate extra violence against women and girls patrols during the Vauxhall night time enterprise zone programme. And that will also feed into the learning from that will also feed into the night time strategy. And lastly, in regards to safer communities, we've worked with safer communities to extend the safe havens that I spoke about in my briefing introduction. And we are also in regards to safer communities. And we are also in regular contact with the violence against women and girls team to share our respective engagement results and feed into each other's project and we can develop strategies for that. OK, were you shocked as I was to see from the BBC that the Ask for Angela scheme is just not being enforced at all in pubs, bars and clubs? As far as I know, I suppose we have to do some data collection on that. As far as I know, most of our pubs and clubs have got Arts Angela. No, no. Ask Angela is a scheme where they say... Ask for Angela, but BBC showed that it just wasn't happening. And what I'm going to suggest to you and make a recommendation is that making participation in this scheme a licensing condition for pubs, bars and clubs. have we considered that as part of the night time strategy and matt do you want to jump in on that one yeah sorry i think uh ask angela i'm afraid isn't a scheme that i'm familiar with brodie uh might be more familiar than me i know that um when it comes to uh safety schemes and accreditation schemes the council had a lot of success working with um pubs bars and clubs um in voxall in terms of um uh an uplift and take up and adoption of those schemes uh and certainly that is the type of work that we need to repeat and scale up um across the borough brodie is there anything you want to add um just uh ask angela is probably one of the uh earlier schemes but the council is looking at uh other other schemes that the gla are recommending are reviewed as part of licensing applications so there's something called wave training um but we are working with licensing on how we can incorporate mandatory uh training as part of licensing approvals through the nighttime strategy yeah okay it was actually i mean actually asked that that's um suggestion about using it as a lysington condition was actually um a gla um committee recommendation recently um led by marina ahmad yeah so we are looking to to replicate the gla's recommendations within our nighttime strategy and i think the other thing is i think it's really important is just increasing the police presence and developing security partnerships but let me move on to others who want to speak from the arts angela um it was one of the remits under health so health um led on um the arts angela scheme so they have a lot of um data on them okay but anyway so i'm going to go with mariana then who then then ben then nicole anyone else okay uh you know we don't normally bring in sorry sorry sorry anyway but whatever this is your special witness it was just regarding attention sorry i'm not trying to carry a favor here but anyway let me just go i've got to like mariana ben nicole anyone else at the moment then we might we might think about coming to mario okay let's start let's start with mario and i first of all want to applaud um uh the people that spoke him obviously um i actually remember as as a young person going to the to the fridge back in the day um and seeing soul to soul there um uh it's amazing what you've done uh one of the things that um i'm really impressed i'm always impressed by uh with um uh with the with with your business now is how well the security is and you have sometimes very what i think are really young people queuing up to go in there i think oh my goodness and it's always really ordered and likewise there are a lot of businesses in brixton that have security and it's gone are the old days of like really horrible bouncers like really fierce and looking um particularly your bouncers are like your your security are phenomenal they're really friendly um but they do a really good job so um i applaud you one my question is we touched on crime and i think what when one of the areas that we're missing is it starts in brixton underground um when you're coming out of the tube and there are no staff they're not many staff at that time of night and kids are just for fun rushing the gates and i've seen it like consistently and it sets a tone they come in then up the stairs in sort of mischief making and just in that chaos because i get the bus from from the sort of stop you just see it just just exploding and you think where are the police and where are tfl staff so i would ask um again i know we're working with safer neighborhoods um and we're also working with lambeth borough commander but we need to have more police and we need to have more tfl staff um so that's my my thing and then obviously security um i think we've learned the lessons of the academy um but security is phenomenal okay um thanks this is something i'm i'm really passionate about i know you're gonna forgive me for going on for about this um i i think you're not gonna be allowed to go on too long i have to say you haven't got the time i think and sam marina is a bit of an exception to this i think the business is hard but i don't think stop calling fate with san wien okay okay you're not gonna get free coffee on it i think i think business are i would also say consuming is hard i think um and as a young person who likes to go on the weekend it's it's borderline impossible to do anything after 11 o'clock at night you know it's a kind of patchwork of places that are open and uh the places are open are doing very very well and interesting huge crowds often it's very difficult to get in i'm not just talking about alcoholic venues as well i'm also talking about getting a cup of tea at night um and there is a kind of patchwork there are some places that are open until four o'clock in the morning there's some places that shut 11 and i can't think of any pubs bar maybe the white horse that are open past 1am um and i just wonder whether or not that you know lots of the the evidence has been put forward um and and lots of evidence has been put forward in the report as well and from written statements you know kind of suggests that actually licensing is a real barrier um to to a kind of improved nighttime economy and this is not a specifically lamber thing right this is a london-wide thing it's it's not a great nighttime experience when you get kicked out of a pub at 11 and you have nowhere to go um and if you do you have to place an extortionate entry price and sometimes you can't get in um and i just wonder whether or not that's something that might be addressed in the next subject um and whether or not these these kind of nighttime zones and this may be across land within across london are going to be kind of updated to reflect i know it's a priority to bear um and i think yeah it would just be interesting to know whether there are going to be later allowances in the license so much do you want to address that yeah um yes um initially um we did um the pilot and that proved um really successful and um as a result of that we've taken the learning and um we're going to um um you know to the best of our ability roll it out to all the um town and center and just if i may chair on terms in terms of safety it is a police matter you know so all we can do is work in partnership with them and all those partnerships um that feed into safety and um just um work together and to resolve it but what research has showed which um mr kill would have said um is he knows about nighttime strategies that have worked right through the night not only in this country but across the world and he would have really been able to give you a really clear picture of what that would look like and in fact when things are open 24 hours um it's sure you know it's safer it's safer um for um people um but hopefully um we've got his notes and that you know could read it but he would have been really good to have spoken to you to recognize me yeah such a shame i know michael from uh from from my day job i think it you know it would be i think at the moment this is just a question i think the default is a no licensing and i would like to get to position the next licensing policy where in the town centers happen brixton uh south bank perhaps shetham where the immediacy is a yes but rather than a no definitely um and you know if i only see one thing being out so if that's the only thing we can do i don't know when the policy is next but very happy to help which is that's completely possible okay we'll capture that nicole yeah thank you i just respond to that because i think it's do we really want thriving town centers everywhere where there's lots of residents i think there is um you have to go actually yes this is where we want the thriving center box hall brixton um one little bit of stress in my dad i just think um that i would be slightly concerned about that you're nindsay point of view no i'm not actually at all well they're different centers a 24 hours stress yeah yeah but slightly i just think some discussion and around planning as well so it's i know one of the um one of the statements racist issue about planning so if you are going to put um that's right next door to a music venue so are you asking about the um the agent of change principle is that what you're talking about well i was just looking at the um yes they're worried aren't they um right nicole so i mean i think the issue is well do we apply the agent of change principle within planning and if not why not do we do do you know that agent of change principle do we apply that in terms of planning applications that's that's the key element is ensuring that in deciding future planning applications the person or business responsible for the change is responsible for managing impact of that change um we're talking to family that we could come back with responses does anyone know says no example chair i'm i'm not aware of um any planning applications that have triggered the agent of change principle and lambeth recently i might be wrong we can definitely go away and check that i do know that we have uh have advised um on the implications uh of new development that might affect nighttime economy venues in our conversations with planning teams but as yet that that hasn't um affected a particular nighttime venue um through a redevelopment proposal that i'm aware of oh okay but i mean we're talking about future also in response to nicole um the nighttime um strategies that just support in music venues it's support in um venues where um you know we have nurses and doctors and um people that work through the night it's keeping those services open sure i'm gonna let mario come in quickly and then i want to come to members okay uh just regarding angela ask for angela and we've got it in place at our place and uh as opposed to in our toilets and we've used it four times already ladies have come in and said um ask for angela and all our staff absolutely know what's going on with angela and it does work and it's you know it should be if we have a particularly tough council meeting okay we'll perhaps come and use that so i was just there's one thing i'm worried about well quite a lot i'm worried about this because actually there's no funding available is it so trying to develop a strategy where actually there's no extra funding um and there's also a proposition to actually dim the lights um across around the streets i'm slightly worried about that so um people don't go out they don't feel safe they feel less safe if streets are dark um so that's one question of funding so i know that there's been talk in the past of the council about introducing um a tourism levy so for everybody who wants to stay at lambeth um as a tourist for a visitor they pay an extra pound or two for their bed in the hotel or maybe a bill where it is that they stay um and this is a way of raising money which could actually is that within lambeth powers though i think it's not goa yeah so i know that that that officers have looked at this and it it may and i think it may or may not be within lambeth's power i think it possibly is and that that's why it's been looked at but it's sort of been put on the shelf but um i would be really interested so you can get applications to be an amazing way to to raise money um that could go you mean do we know if does lambeth have powers to introduce the tourist tax i i thought i thought it was a gia thing to answer that can i jump back yeah yeah um there are there are different ways that the different models behind a kind of so-called tourist tax um one of them is uh tourist led business improvement districts so there are some examples i think in manchester and liverpool where existing um business improvement district legislation has been used to create tourist focused um bids through um hotel groups in a particular area um so there is that bids legislation that makes it possible for councils to respond to business-led um attempts to bring in a kind of tourist specific focused bid um but as yet we're unaware of um any bids in the borough are kind of expressing an interest in doing that um we are also aware that i think at a national level and a regional government level um it it's being discussed at the moment but we're waiting to see what proposals come forward on that but i think the things that are being looking at a national regional level aren't the bids model it's it's a different kind of potentially a nationally or regionally imposed um taxation on the tourism industry so yeah i think um there's a kind of differing approaches that can be taken to this but do we have the scope to introduce the kind of local business rate relief scheme is that something we can do or is that not within our powers to uh the council doesn't receive any funding from um government to provide discretionary business rate relief and it has i think a very small business rate relief um pot that it creates annually um through through its own finances but that's very much geared towards locally focused um charities i think just sorry just for a moment going back to this tourist bids point as with all bids they're only ever successful in being established if they're if they're brought really from the ground up from business communities so whilst the council has technically has powers to enable their creation or approve their creation um the move to create one would really have to come from um business communities in the area to be successful and come back yeah because i know that manchester have actually introduced this quite successfully so it might be interesting to have a look at the model that they've introduced and may be relevant for lambeth yeah i used to work in the hotel industry it's a gla thing it's not yeah so it's basically mad mayor led yeah yeah yeah okay okay so uh okay so just on the whole point of um funding um we're also part number if it's also a part of an organization called um London forward and that you know we're looking at um the London growth plan which um you know the government wants to um invigorate London as much as they can and they might be funding their property will be funded um through um back to the local authority um that are involved okay david jonka as an ex-resident of blackpool we've got we've got our own entertainment plan as well the actual change of principle is actually a actually raised by nickel it's actually hugely important it has been in London over the last decade of the number of places that have closed down cost that hasn't been applied it isn't just music places it's uh pubs as well because they complain about the noise of the drink there's something etc there's only a news article about place in near the intercourse or somewhere like that and um they actually got the place closed down put forward for the uh soundproofing etc because the resident complaining here so which is really and not just planning it's licensing as well we need to leave now we need to build that in for um licensing and planning and if you uh second or whatever you want to turn into luxury flats or whatever you need to pay out for that you can't close down so there's legalities that saying that we apply the agent uh of change principle in our planning out okay any other question any other points before i move to recommendations i mean nicole taking your point i mean about funding i'm obviously one of the things we presumably encourage the council to do is to seek more investment from national cultural programs uh just to help down both creative industries but many come to us tax time i mean there are other things aren't there in terms of um you know there's a call isn't there for a voluntary levy on um we know and stadium tickets to support grassroots venues but that's the house and that's from the house of commons um media sports select committee i think so okay just lastly in terms you mentioned about business and relief fund the government is continuing it for um until 2026 but it is at a reduced rate right okay let's let's let's i'll try to capture recommendations you tell me if i haven't captured them all so starting with safety um uh seeks to do more to increase the police presence and develop security partnerships to address safety concerns in key nightlife areas and on public transport at night which include the tube point make participation in the ask for angela scheme or successor scheme a licensing condition for pubs bars and clubs do more to encourage late night openings through more flexible licensing of nighttime venues and um include that as part of the nighttime strategy that's catch your point um apply the um agent or change principle as part of our nighttime strategy ensuring that in deciding future planning applications the person or business responsible for the change is responsible for managing the impact of that change um and then perhaps support um landless creative sector by seeking to secure more investment national cultural programs to sustain and expand it that's okay anything else that's a huge change you aren't in there that it should be taken into account licensing issues as well as planning okay so um so it should be uh well um um apply oh okay i just said i said apply part of our nighttime strategy i haven't actually said licensing or planning but because it can happen that someone says oh there's a lot of noise there we don't come we can cancel their license in future planning and licensing applications yeah have you got that um what's your son just planning and add and licensing after planning Mario's recommendation that actually all the four stakeholders work together around um um safer okay i was trying to capture that in terms of talking about security partnerships but perhaps do you want to add something to that um police the council i said um so i think i said well which i'll catch it um think do more to increase the police presence to develop security partnerships to address safety concerns in key night life areas on public transport at night do you want to add anything to that you think that's that cover it maria yeah okay well thanks very much thank you very much um officers um cabinet member and witnesses for your time tonight much appreciated and then finally the last few minutes we'll move to the work program um so given this is the last meeting for the municipal year there will be a work programming session very soon but if you've got any additions to the work program you want to add now please say um if not um the next meeting is penciled in for the 20th of may and the agenda is provisionally to review how the council pays its bills and deals with debts owned owed to the council and to review landless non-housing assets including um how the council manages third sector and other leases uh are members content with that yes i feel like there are lots of questions on the line okay if you agree there's recommendation that's coming to the business for this evening thank you very much you