Transcript

published as soon as possible afterwards. Zoom participants, please make a note of the meeting ID. If you experience any technical difficulties, this will allow you to rejoin by telephone. If there is a short adjournment, you will be able to rejoin using the Zoom code provided. If the meeting is adjourned, you will be informed of a revised date and time and a fresh appointment will be forwarded. In the event of an alarm sounding here, evacuate as quickly as possible using the nearest safe fire exits. Please then assemble via the Guildhall reception on flu in East South green. So, turning to the first item of the agenda, as we do not have a chair and vice chair of the committee present, the first item of business will be to appoint a presiding chair. Please take nominations. Councillor Davies. Move Councillor Galandas. Oh, I'll second that. OK, Councillor Andy Galandas has been moved by Councillor Dan Davies and seconded by Councillor Mike Davies. My slip up, I forgot there were two Councillor Davieses. Are all members happy to proceed on that basis. Short hands, please. Thank you very much, Councillor Galandas. Thank you very much. Welcome to today's meeting. Confirmation of minutes from sorry, apologies for absence. We have Councillor Williams, Councillor Baldwin, Councillor Blackmore, Councillor Kent, Councillor Rogers, Councillor Jones, Mark Jones, that is. Any other apologies? Councillor Davies. Councillor Galley-Brown. Thank you very much. So item number two, confirmation of minutes. Confirmation minutes held on the 1st of May. If we can go through page three, page four, page five and page six. Are we all happy these are true and accurate record? Yep. Thank you very much. Item number three, declarations of personal interest. I'll go first. The presentation we have received today mentions the business records and business awards. I just want to put on record that my business was a supplier. It's personal, not prejudicial. Any of declarations? Nope. Thank you very much. Today we have a civic leaders group, item number five. If we could go around the house introducing ourselves, starting with Councillor Mike Davies, going online and then to our guests, so everyone knows who's in the room and in attendance stays. Councillor Mike Davies. Councillor Mike Davies, representing Rosnesney Ward. Ross Shepherd, Member for Rossett. And on camera, we've got Councillor Karen Jarvis. Hello. Yes, a member for Acton and Myser-Drey and my cat might be joining us. Apologies if you'd just like to be in the camera. Perfect. No problem. And Councillor Davies. Councillor Diana Davies, selected member for the WAPM. And if we go from the officers first on the right. Good afternoon, everyone. David Fitzsimons, Chief Officer for Economy and Planning. Good afternoon. Andrew Harrodine, Regeneration in Economy and Planning. Spencer Harris, I'm here representing the civic leaders group. Maria Hinfelier, Vice-Chancellor, Wrexham University and also representing the civic leaders group. The amplifier for your attendance today. You're most welcome. We believe we're having a presentation. Are we going to go straight into presentation first and then lovely stuff. So if we can go for that. Thank you, Mr Harrodine. Well, good afternoon. Thank you very much for the invitation to come and speak to you this afternoon about the civic leaders group, which is a group of volunteers, civic leaders championing Wrexham. So we've done some intros. If we just step down to the agenda. What I'm going to do is just talk you through who's going to address what. So I'm going to start off with giving you some background. A reminder, I'm sure for some of you, I'm sure some of you were well versed in the civic leaders group. But give you a reminder or if you don't know that much, tell you what it's all about. So I will do that and I will hand over to my colleague, Maria, who will take you through. A bit about the background, where it started and some of the timeline of things that we've done. And also the work that we've been doing over the last few years before Maria hands back to me to talk about next steps. OK. So let's pop past that and go down, keep going down and again. OK, so let's let's start on this side slide, which is who are the civic leaders group or what is it about? I'm going to draw your attention to the right hand side of the screen. If I make some to start with what it isn't first and what it what the civic leaders group isn't is it's not an elected group. It does not represent Wrexham residents. It's not a delivery agent. It's not there to deliver projects. It's there for for other purposes, which I'll talk in a moment. The group's got no budget and it doesn't have a formal legal structure in which to to deliver projects. And it's very much not a political group or a pressure and political pressure campaigning group. So that's what it isn't. But let's talk about what it is then. It's a group of leaders who've been brought together, united with a single ambition. The group of leaders want to see Wrexham reach its full potential and want the very, very best for Wrexham and its residents. There are three key words on the next piece, which are voluntary, nonpolitical and network. This is a group that volunteers their expertise. So it's all voluntary. They provide their expertise, insight and ideation to support Wrexham Council as a partner organisation and to Wrexham as a city. In addition, it's a network. So we leverage opportunities across the group to create connections for the benefit of the town. So, for example, the very the most recent one is trying to push fostering opportunities in Wrexham as an example, or to support the City of Culture bid and lots in between that you'll hear from Maria. It is a group that was convened back in 2018 by the CEO of Wrexham Council. And it was endorsed by the executive board of the council in, I think it was January of 2020, which provides some officer support. OK, we step on. OK, so who's in this group? Well, you can see the group. There's 12 people currently within the group. And what I would say is this is a group of it's one of an emerging ecosystem of volunteers and voluntary groups who are supporting the local community and the local authority who are aiming to drive the very best for Wrexham, as will you guys as members of the local authority and members of this committee. We're here to try and help improve things for residents of the town. So I'm sure many of the names that you see on the screen will be familiar to you as prominent volunteers in our community from across the third, private and public sectors. So on the group, we have we have members who represent the town's fund group, members who are part of the City of Culture bid, both the previous and the 2029 bid, members who are who are on the leading committee of the National Esthevod, the Wrexham Business Awards, investment zone application and business network groups around around the city. With that in mind, you know what we'd encourage you to see this as is a network of voluntary leaders who play their part as a small fish in a in a bigger pool of that voluntary ecosystem that that you'll be seeing around the area. OK, so let's let's talk a little bit about governance, because I'm sure that will be of interest to you. So the network and the group operate under an MOU or a memorandum of understanding, it doesn't have a constituted legal status. That memorandum of understanding is a document that just binds how we work together to make sure that we've got something written down to show how we how we operate as a group. The group has been formed to to operate with approximately 10 to 15 members, and we've been down to the 10 and up to the 15 over the over the six years, I think it is or very nearly six years that the group has been in existence. And as I mentioned before, it comes from all different sectors, members of the groups from all different sectors of the community. The group meets six times a year. And plus, if there's anything particular in between, there may be occasional additional meetings. But the plan is that it meets six times a year decision making. It doesn't really have that many decisions that it has to take. And I can't recall us ever getting to a situation where consensus has not been reached, where we've had to enter into some into some formal decision making. Process. The key thing is this and one of the strengths of the group is it's nonpolitical. So to be a member, you couldn't be a member, you couldn't you couldn't stand for a political nomination. For example, we feel that's very important because it helps retain independence and means that the group can can operate independently of of the political arena and focus just on the things that they feel are important to members of the group. So I'm going to hand you over now to Maria to talk about our timeline and the work that we've been doing. OK, OK. Apologies. Thank you very much, Spencer. And the next slide is on the on the timeline. So as Spencer referenced in 2018, that's when the group was formed. And what this was very much about was we had a shared goal. And the shared goal was to change the narrative about Rexham. Rexham as a place to come and live and work, to visit, to study and as a place that that couldn't should thrive. And changing the narrative because there was a lot of negative narrative out there. And this is something that we were keenly aware of. And I still remember the very early meetings we had when the civic leaders group was just being formed, that we had some really frank conversations about that. And all the things that we could see, that we could observe, that we thought that was maybe suboptimal, a suboptimal situation where there were opportunities being missed. And we had some really frank conversations about that. So in the by 2019, so this took only about 18 months or so, by the end of 2019, so just before Covid, we achieved our first milestone. And that was to develop the common purpose booklet. And you may have seen it before. You might be familiar with it. This is what it looks like. And this was all about creating as a common purpose for the civic leaders group and beyond, was to create a vibrant town centre ready for further investments. And we saw this very much as a celebration of what Rexham actually had to offer and a recognition of that. But also as a vehicle and a narrative to pitch about Rexham and about gathering support from important stakeholders such as Welsh Government to support us, to invest in us and to help us achieve our objectives and really improve the place as it was. So that was very much the key message of the common purpose document, which, of course, we produced in both languages. Because it's very important that we cherish the bilingual nature of where we are and where we are based. So all of us as volunteer civic leaders, as Spencer explained, we shared that agenda. And the way we understood it and saw it and still do that, that shared agenda is very much an agenda which is also shared with the local authority, because surely that's what the local authority also wants to see. We want to bring Rexham to the next phase. We want to be ambitious for Rexham as a place. But to be able to do that, you need to have a plan. You need to come up with ideas. So in this common purpose document, we came up with initially eight ideas to try and pitch Rexham as the place where these things could happen. So the first idea was to create a creative and innovative engagement opportunity. Now, of course, Rexham has always had things like Focus Whales, the food festival every year. There's a lot more going on now with your Stanford coming to Rexham next year. We've got the Tour of Britain landing here on Friday, which, of course, I'll be at because I like cycling and I hope a Dutch cyclist will win. So there is actually a lot going on in that sphere. So creative and innovative engagement and making that bigger and better and to make sure that there is a continuity of those kind of events so that Rexham becomes a hub and a destination. Idea two is financial solutions to undertake demolition and invest in property. So this was 2018-19 where it was already the case and we recognized that there were many buildings which were actually too big, which were standing empty. A lot of retail had left the town centre and that was even before Covid. And of course, it got even more acute during and post Covid. And what do we do to address this issue of empty properties and can we come up with ideas? And that fed into the work that was done subsequently by the PER organization, which was a project commissioned by the local authority to look at repurposing spaces, essentially. So we fed into to the work around that as well. The third idea, the third idea was the innovation and entrepreneurial loan fund. So this was supported by the Wales Development Bank. And it was about trying to encourage small businesses to set up and base themselves in Rexham. So that was working with the Enterprise Centre in the city centre at the time, which was also was government funded. It was a scheme that ran across different parts of North Wales, but particularly Rexham also was a hope there. And that idea is still alive and it's still ongoing. The fourth one and indeed also the fifth one was about sustainable transport, active transport, improving walkways, pedestrian routes and what that might look like. So, again, it was about trying to shape and influence and help with the generation of ideas as part of the placemaking strategy, which, of course, got underway in Rexham subsequently. So that's idea five as well, which was about a town centre with clear gateways, routeways and safe, lively spaces. Idea six was about the town centre and to create a high quality core for the town centre. So that would look at ideas such as bringing more residential development right into the heart of the city centre in sustainable places, starting the discussion about what can we actually do with the upper floors or some of the spaces, the buildings which are being used, but where the upper floors are empty is another way in which they can be recommissioned. And that also then led to idea seven, high quality residential accommodation, which is, of course, linked. And then finally, idea eight was about creating some materials, some collateral, some attractive visual imagery, up to date photography and designs to help us with this pitch to Wales government and perhaps other funders and investors to come to Rexham and help us achieve all of this. So they were the eight ideas and move on to the next slide, please. So and the next one again. So to really recap that first part of my presentation here, we want to change in development, we wanted positive development and we wanted to get Wales government to take Rexham seriously and to see Rexham as a place where there is a lot of potential and for us to champion that, we felt would help to put that on their agendas. And we did in in the early couple of years, we had some engagement with Minister Leslie Griffith, with also with Minister Kent's case at the time, which now, of course, back as the Minister for North Wales, so that opportunity is coming back again. We continued our work through the pandemic, even though obviously we weren't meeting face to face, we kept meeting over teams and Zoom and what have you. Next slide, please. So that's when we published the Vibrantown Centre Ready for Further Investment, common purpose document that I've just walked you through. We invested that. And it's important to mention as well that that was based on a sense that we had that there were and are key assets within Rexham and key opportunities that just need to be harnessed better. OK, next slide, please. So a few words then on the work done by PEER, which was the consultancy that was engaged by the local authority to look at what to do with properties in Rexham, which are partially or in some cases empty and not occupied at all. So the placemaking agenda was starting to take shape in Rexham during and post pandemic. So it is a very broad agenda. Placemaking is, of course, an agenda which is owned by the local authority. And it's a term which is used in places right across the UK. But what we did, we didn't feel that we owned it or steered it in any way, but we wanted to contribute into that. And we felt that the work we had done up to that point might be of value in the placemaking strategy as it was forming. So we kept contributing ideas and we also supported the local authority. Andrew, I remember you came to the university for some of these, one of these stakeholder fora. So the member organisations of the civic leadership group helped to engage the wider public, our own staff, our students in that debate about what should placemaking actually look like in Rexham. What do we want? What do we want to see? And those stakeholder sessions were, of course, very important there. One of the things that also fed into that process of the placemaking strategy was a survey which we carried out, where we had a response of 4000 by 4000 individuals. And that survey was about perceptions, perceptions of Rexham, the good, the bad, the indifferent. And that was part of the branding and marketing project to look at perceptions. But that was then shipped over to the team within the local authority that was working on the placemaking strategy. So that was very helpful. And of course, the placemaking strategy is now operational, it's been adopted, hasn't it? So it's really good to see that. Next slide, please. And then other work that we've done as a civic leaders group, where we've had an influence and input and hopefully some valuable contributions already to be mentioned. The Rexham Community and Business Awards, which will be up and running again later this year. We supported that. In fact, one of the key members of our group, Alex Lovén, the owner and founder of NetWorld Sports, they hosted the event. And he's also a member of the civic leaders group. So that network is really powerful. We've also got engagement with the City of Culture board. We fed into the city status bid. So there's a lot going on. And Rexham is now in a much better place than it was when we started. We feel absolutely clearly the work's never finished. And we will look to continue to contribute into that work, which is where what brings us now to the future and next steps. And Spencer is going to pick up again there. Thank you, Maria, if you can step down, Andrew. So we thought we'd give you a sneak peek into the future thinking of this group of volunteers to see where does the group want to go next? And it would be fair to say that the group is in an ideation phase or generating ideas and plans about how it might be able to help Rexham in a number of areas. And some of these you can see on the screen in front of you. So we we took some sounding from the local authority from the CEO around where where we thought areas of need and the priorities were for the for for the for the region going forwards. And also had a discussion as a as a group for key priorities beyond the areas of the common purpose. So we we've got members of the team who continue to support the City of Culture bid. You can see the Eisteddvod is on there. So we have members of the group who are on the Stephen committee for the Eisteddvod. But but alongside that, as already mentioned, you could talk and swap interchangeably with Towns Fund or Rexham Business Awards. A couple of areas that that we're looking at include a public health landscape and how can we make an impact in public health? But probably more pressing and an area of real interest is how do we raise the level of ambition for the young people of Rexham? We were really cognizant. There's lots of interest in this in already in the local authority, not least with the work that Rexham University are doing. But that is an area that we're starting to investigate. And, you know, there is more to to come there. So those give you an idea of the thoughts and where we're looking to take the group next. So I think that brings us to the end of the slides. Hope you found that entertaining and enlightening. And we'd be happy to take any questions that you may have. Thank you very much for our presentation. I'm going to go first. So this has been on our work programme for quite a short amount of time to get an understanding of what the group activities are. And so I'm really grateful for you today to come and give us that roundup of the work that has taken part so far. This group has no budget, yet we seem to be spending quite a bit of money. Can I have a bit of a better understanding on first of all, the £70,000 for the logo, which hasn't been used in the presentation today, which was brought to our attention back in January with a Rexham.com article. And we thank them for that bring to attention and also the donation of the £20,000 for the business award ceremony. So if this group has no budget, can I just get an understanding of where and how these things are being spent and what's happened to the logo? OK, so I'll pick up on the marketing and branding. So when I stepped you through the eight common purpose brochure ideas, the eighth one, which was the creation of a high quality, common purpose prospectus with World Company's partner. That was the one which was to do with marketing, branding, not so much the creation of a logo to replace all of the logos. That was never the intention. Maybe that's how it was interpreted by some people, but that was not the intention. So what we did, I mentioned before the survey amongst 4,000 respondents. So that was looking at what are the perceptions of Rexham and what do people like about Rexham, what do people not like so much about Rexham, what are the strengths and weaknesses, etc. So that then fit into coming up with a range of visuals, some of which and photography, some of which were actually used in the city of culture bid because it turned out there was actually very little up to date material. So that that helped to do that. The £70,000 was half of that was made available by World Government for this project. And the remaining £35,000 was shared in terms of making contributions by the university, Colacambria and the local authority. So we basically broke that down between the three of us and contributed in. So that was a year right. And of course, we said that in the presentation. The group doesn't have a budget, we rotate the venues of the meetings between our own organisations. So we don't spend money on that. Any catering is just provided by the host on the day. Clearly, our time is also given for free, it's always after working hours normally, half past six, seven o'clock finishing. So in that way, we don't have a budget, correct. This project was funded as a direct result of the pitch, where it was agreed by World Government particularly. But actually, it's about time we invest a little bit and showed our goodwill in helping this group, which they did see us as a broad representation of the different sections of the community within Wrexham, representing the local authority itself, education, businesses, the voluntary sector. We also have membership from the police force, the hospital. So it really is a good cross-section. So they saw us as a very credible party to work with and support us in this way. So when they allocated the funding, that was literally on the cusp of COVID hitting. So it then took a while to actually develop the project. But what we got out of it was materials which turned out to be really useful. And you can't do that without some funding. So that's basically the answer to that. I hope that helps. Yeah, thank you very much. I think we need to celebrate where money comes from, because obviously we see headlines through the press. And obviously Wrexham.com has done a great job at spotting that and stuff. But obviously, if there's part funding from the university and other forms, we really need to be celebrating the partnership a lot better, I think. And we need to be saying a massive thank you for the work that you guys do. One more question, then I will open it up. Would you like to hear from Spencer about the business awards? It was just more about the volunteers. You have a fantastic group of volunteers here, but you said you were currently under... You had some membership positions. I don't know if there's any way you'd like to advertise today on getting some new faces on board to use this platform to make sure they've got a stronger networking possibility. If you allow me to ask that question for the moment, because we still need to come back to the business awards question as well. So let's not lose sight of that. We'll take that first. Yeah, so if I come back on the second part of your original question, Andy, just to give you the details. So the £20,000 actually, that was a donation from the awards, from the surplus profits of a year one to charity. So that was always a part of the objectives of the Recs and Business Awards, or the Recs and Business and Community Awards was to donate money back where possible to local charities. And £20,000 was donated as of January this year, which is a tremendous achievement in the first year of the business awards. And we move on to the second year of the business awards this year, which we hope will be even better. The other great news about the business awards was that because it's the Recs and Business and Community Awards, it was all about using local suppliers and using local venue. We talked earlier about they were hosted at Networld Sports, but it's all about promoting recs and doing everything using local people. And apart from one, there was one person who wasn't local, which was Jason Mohammed. But we used Jason, who's a brilliant presenter, because he could do it bilingually for us. And we wanted to do everything bilingually. So we thought he was a great choice. Shall I take the question on membership? Yes. So the vacancies we currently have, we would like to have a member joining us from Gregson FC. Phil Robinson was due to join us, and she had agreed to join, but she never actually made it to the meetings. Because I think at one time there was a clash with the game. You can understand she would have prioritized that. And now she's left. So we need to start again. And I'm sure we'll be successful. We should be able to get engagement there. And we also currently have a vacancy for a member from the hospital or from the health sector more broadly. Because I think that's a really important piece of the jigsaw, is to have somebody around the table who really understands that agenda. Because it's so critical for the well-being of the community. We don't have, as Spencer said, ranging membership between 10 and 15. That's about the optimal number for sitting around the table and having these discussions. But it is very much like a sort of a co-option system. Of course, when we started back in 2018, it was Ian Bancroft at the time who took the initiative. But since then, we also rotate the chairing, by the way. So I chaired it for two years. Spencer is the current chair. And then by consensus around the table, we then say, well, actually, we have a particular blind spot in one area. So let's let's see if we can find somebody who would like to slot in. But that's how it works. And just one of the important things is one of the things that we look for is somebody with an absolute burning passion for Rexham and for wanting to see Rexham be successful. And when you flip back through your presentation to look at some of the people, I'm sure many of them you will recognise, you'll see many longstanding contributors and volunteers to society and Rexham on that page. So it's no surprise, really, that those types of leaders, with their passion for Rexham, were originally brought. Because there's been there's been a lot of stability in the group, actually, even through Covid. Right. It's no surprise that those leaders were were asked to join in and to donate their time and expertise freely for the betterment of Rexham as a city. Thank you very much for those excellent answers. And we hope that some of them, Rexham AFC or the Miler is watching today. And we can give you a little bit of a plug on there. So hopefully anyone in the room should speak. Councillor Dan Davis on screen. Yeah, thank you, chair. Yeah, what's really interesting for me on this is the governance, to be honest. And I wonder if you can just give me a bit more detail, because I understand the formation of the group is very much volunteers. But then when we've talked about access to funding, it's very much through your organisations, because you talked about lead organisations. And, you know, in the information that we've had, you talked about Glendood leading on a programme of work. So there's there's a question of governance there, isn't there? Because obviously, you know, the volunteers in this group are very much around skill set and promoting Rexham from the point of view of maximising everything that Rexham is. But obviously, there's a you know, there's an interest here for the organisations that you represent as well, if they are taking leads on access to funding that can come in. And I just wonder as well, because this group is very much by invite only, whether we're missing a trick here, or whether there's potential exclusion of some organisations. And those opportunities have been able to lead, you know, because we don't need, I'm not saying the skill set is poor. I'm just saying if we're looking at maximising opportunities to Rexham, then potentially we could be missing a trick by excluding some organisations because it's invite only. So that's my first question. If you could drill down more on the governance for me, because from what you're explaining, it's the lead organisations, not the individual volunteers that are very much leading on pieces of work. And access to funding. And if you can also, I'm trying to figure out as well what the barriers are to the work of this group, because, you know, with any group, it's identifying the barriers to have that fully successful outcome, isn't it? So if you can talk to me as well about, you know, how you communicate with the wider business groups within Rexham, because we did have the town centre forum, which at one point was a very engaging group. But then that, you know, that became very much non-functioning. And I'm just wondering if there's a gap there that the civic leadership group can tap into, because you talked about network. And I'm trying to see that network. And I'm just wondering how you communicate with them and how you then take on board that wider voice. So if I can just start there, please. I have a question as well about the PR and the PR agency and the work that they were involved in with regards to, in your view, how successful was that in the overall objectives with regards to the eight ideas around the common purposes. Thank you. Maria, would you like to take that? Yes, I'll take the question about, and you're referencing Lindor, so you're referencing the university leading on the on the marketing and branding project. So the 70K project we talked about earlier. So that is that was quite simply because one of the members of the group had to be the accountable officer. That was that's a normal mechanism. So we agreed to take that on. So the funding was channeled through my finance department, obviously earmarked for this project, and then spent accordingly as we brought in the services of an organization that was doing the work with us to to put out surveys, to process them, to to then present them back and to also collate all the visuals and promo materials that I was talking about. So that's how that worked. It wasn't the case that that we saw ourselves as being the lead organization of the whole group, essentially. It was simply a convenient mechanism vehicle to process and the funding that had been and that had been awarded because one of us had to do it. And then there was money in, money out, depending on the program of work, really. So that's now closed off. If I can just comment on that, and that's my point, really, because, you know, the skill set, how people explained to me previously was it was very much like that skill set to drive and, you know, and to maximize what WEXM could be. But as I'm understanding it now, it is very much as well with that, with the volunteer potentially comes the organization because it's a group that can collectively tap into funding. But because of the governance and the financial governance, it's the organization that delivers and that's a lead organization. And that could be anybody, couldn't it? It could be Avow leading. Of course, yes. It could be Calicambria leading, yourselves. It could be Netwool Sports leading. It could be any organization. And this is why I'm asking the question about because the group is by invite only, then potentially we could be restricting other organizations from their skill set and their organization to lead on this. The whole drive of making WEXM the best it can be. So that's what I was trying to get at. I understand the governance around the lead organization. We do it across the six North Wales authorities. You know, Way was a prime example because Gwynedd led on that for us from a financial point of view. So, yeah, it's not that model. It's potentially how restrictive that model could be when we're looking at invite only and, you know, we're potentially not involving other organizations that could be driving, you know, the best that WEXM could be. OK, I'm going to hand back to Spencer. So Spencer is going to pick up the governance questions that you were asking and membership and inclusion. Hi, Dana, thank you very much for the question. So a couple of a couple of things that my reflections on on the question. The first thing I would say is and it goes back to what I said right back to start the presentation is the CLG. And I use these words as a small fish in a in a big pool or a big pond. Right. So if if you if you think about the work that this network of people are doing and where it's led to from a voluntary base, I think is, you know, sub praises, no praise, but praising the other members of the team is quite commendable. However, that small group, small fish in a big pond is only one vehicle in the way in which WEXM is driving itself forward as a as a region today. There are many other groups who are doing great work around our region to help drive WEXM forward. So from a from an exclusion point of view, there's no exclusive exclusivity that the CLG have got in, you know, owning the development of WEXM or it's you know, that is more a matter for, you know, the local authority. We are one group of volunteers adding to the choir of voices that I feel are really getting behind WEXM, you know, and no more so than the football club. Right. And what they're bringing to to us. So I think that would be my response on the exclusivity bet on the delivery agent. But we aren't a delivery agent. So Maria's talked about what happened with the marketing pace and how that sort of shifted. Yes, there was the CLG were involved, but it wasn't really a delivery agent. We are not there to be a delivery agent. You know, that's we meet six times a year. So if we're there to be a delivery agent, then, you know, our cadence of meetings is wrong. So that's not what we're there to do. And then on the point on governance and how we connect with other groups, you can see through some of the names, how well networked we are into some of the other strategic groups that are happening across the region. The town centre forum, I am aware of the town centre forum, but it's not one that I necessarily interact with. So I'm more than happy, Dana, to connect outside of the meeting and perhaps learn more and see what we could do there. To add to what Spencer just said on the town centre forum, we have actually had some crossover between the town centre forum membership, ranks of the membership and the CLG. So I think Ruth Rees was actually on the town centre, so she was in the group for a period of time. People like Sam Regan, Lemon Tree. So we've had connections and there clearly is some overlap in terms of the agenda. I wasn't aware that the town centre forum was currently not really operational any longer. If that is the case, then yes, we could have a conversation, but how can we help to reinvigorate that? Just for everyone's note, the town centre forum currently isn't active, but there is work going on to try and redo a new form of group to do with the town centre. But the actual town centre forum disbanded about a year, year and a half ago. OK, thank you. Regarding the, David, would you like to take the question regarding the PER works? Andrew will take that, but just in terms of crossover and just adding on to what Spencer and Maria have said. If you look at the membership group and you look at the town board, which has just been established, then at least half a dozen of the members of the civic leadership group sit on the town board. So there is crossover. There is crossover there in terms of that wider pond and in terms of a wider group looking at moving the city forward. Can I just bring Councillor Davis back in? Was there something you'd like to say, Darn it? Yes, please. Two things. I got a bit confused with Spencer's response about delivery, because I've got my head on, Spencer, that, you know, you're procuring for funding. So if you procure, there's got to be a delivery of some sort, hasn't they? So, yeah, you know, that's what's confusing me from that point. But if we talk about the, if we move to success measures then, you know, from a civic leadership group, you know, from where you really come to be in 2020, on the back of the common purpose, if we take it from that point. And I understand this work, you know, around the culture of the Istevod, the City of Culture bid and everything. What would you say are the barriers to, you know, from your eight ideas and your common purpose, what are you seeing as your barriers that potentially the Council or, you know, other things? I'm not going to mention political because, you know, you're a non-political group, but obviously you're working within that political environment. What would you say are the barriers to, you know, your success measurement within your common purpose? And, yeah, I think the Chair has answered the question about the town centre forum. So I think it is from our point of view as well, what would be the message to, you know, that those wider businesses in Wrexham that can, you know, they may not need to be a member of the civic leadership group, but they need to be communicated to. So how would the civic leadership group go about communicating to the wider business groups in Wrexham? Who would like to take? So Spencer will kick off on the question on procurement. Yeah, if I come back to the piece on procurement and then I'm going to hand over to Andrew to talk about PER and then perhaps we can come back on the communication after then. In terms of procurement, the only in the six years that I've sat within the group, the only time we've ever got involved in any procurement exercise is actually the piece of work with the marketing. OK. And as Maria has explained, where the funding for that came from. But that's the only time. Actually, we actually state in our memorandum of understanding that we're not a delivery group and we're not a delivery engine. So we actually call that out ourselves. So just to cover that off, I'm going to pass over to Andrew now to talk about PER. So Councillor Davies, you mentioned specifically the PER piece of work and what the potential benefits or successes of that were. And if I'm obviously going to answer that as the council officer working on our side of the equation, alongside the civic leadership group partners, as the group came together, the idea of working around empty properties. What were the gaps? What needed to happen in the city centre as it is now the town centre at the time? It was generally that ambition piece. It was that connecting some of the dots. It was amplifying and magnifying some of those issues and getting those issues in front of people who could help us make a difference. So in terms of the property work, we'd identified through the common purpose a number of projects. We took three effectively in terms of things that the council felt needed to be done and that we were looking at at the same time for exactly the same reasons. The civic leadership group were able to take that straight to ministers in a way that certainly as a middle ranking, low ranking council officer, I could never do and build the support there to actually result in some additional funding that allowed the council to do a piece of work on property. So the civic leadership group did not procure that piece of work. The council did, as you would expect through the normal council procedures with all the appropriate sign offs. We did invite a member of the civic leadership group to sit on the scoring panel as a sort of observer role. And we do that quite often with partnership work with with recruitment and procurement to provide that that extra ambition. But the decision on the procurement was very much a council one just in terms of keeping that partnership going. In terms of the point of the work was effectively to create a baseline of our understanding around empty properties. I think we've we've spoken for many years now. And again, I think I also make the link between the work of the civic leadership group, the common purpose and the town centre task and finish group that this committee was was very instrumental in and led for over a year just before Covid. We were all sort of closing in on those issues around property, that the large properties that are no longer fit for the modern retail world and how you repurpose those. But what are the challenges? What are the barriers? And fundamentally, that was viability in terms of property value, land value, rental value. And so that the PR work helped us to baseline our understanding of, I think I can't remember now off the top of my head, I should have looked at it, say, 15 properties that we'd identified in terms of long term, empty or certainly underutilised. By then analysing values by speaking to the market, by engaging with the the agents and the others involved in that sector, we were able to prioritise those properties in terms of the ones that really wouldn't do anything if it wasn't for public sector intervention to the ones that just needed a little bit of help or some advice to the ones that would actually fly off the shelves if the right offer came along. And it was purely a private sector approach. So from that point of view, we were then able to be more efficient as a council team in terms of prioritising certain bits of activity to bring property projects forward. Some of those were successful. Some of those we tried to go for and we couldn't get a sale agreed or another arrangement. But the Hippodrome site was mentioned in the in the presentation. We acquired that site on the basis of the evidence base that the PR report provided, because we obviously had to then go to a funder and say, we want to buy this and these are the reasons why we should be intervening. It's been used with the old library. It's been used with a lot of our Transforming Towns project. It's also been shared with partner organisations in terms of data so that they can can invest and think about their approaches to property as well. And then fundamentally, it then rolled into the placemaking work. So in terms of the placemaking plan, the engagement that colleagues have mentioned in terms of being able to open up their network so that people could comment on our thoughts and put their thoughts forward. We were able to get into a lot of spaces that, you know, just our normal innovative Commerce Council approach might not have got us to voices that we wouldn't automatically have heard from challenges that we weren't aware of. It was it was a really engaged session at the university. I think we had about 45, 50 people in the room from students all the way through to staff, you know, a multiplicity of views. And I think that's been the power of that work. So bringing that all back through into the placemaking plan, being able to justify the interventions around property were still justified. And if you do look on the placemaking plan, I think the image that Spencer's including his report, you'll notice some of the shaded buildings. They are the PER buildings that they looked at and analysed and prioritised. So I think it is actually for a relatively low cost. It has been a really formative sort of platform of work that has allowed a council team and some partners to be able to move forward. Councillor Davis, you want to come back? Yeah, just directly to Andrew Harradine, please. That's great, Andrew, because I was looking at this from the point of view of where's the exec board decision on spend and what you've clarified now. It was specific grant funding, so it just needed to go through the normal straightforward sign off process. So no, that's great. And then it ties into the work that we've been doing as a scrutiny committee and that wider placemaking strategy. So brilliant. I can get my head around that element of the governance side now, just from your point of view, as well as a partner and to working alongside the civic leadership group and from a local authority point of view, Andrew, because obviously we can obviously influence that because we're all, you know, we can make recommendations to the executive board. Is there anything that we could be doing as a local authority to up the pace of or support with the pace of the work that the civic leadership group is doing? You know, is there anything more that we could be doing as a local authority? Because obviously, you know, there's a lot happening in Wrexham at the moment, isn't there? There's a lot coming up in Wrexham and it's what we can do as well to support, you know, Wrexham being the best that can be, isn't it? So, yeah, from I don't mean to put you on the spot, but it just would be really valuable from us sitting here, I think, to get a steer from the council side of how we can support and support the work of the civic leadership group so that we can, you know, just in case we're missing a trick. Thank you. And may I just add as well, anything that the scrutiny committee can help do as well to facilitate the work going just to speed up the advocacy. This is the first time this group's come to committee and the information we've had up so far is fantastic. So anything we can help with would be fantastic. Andrew? But without being put on the spot and if you forgive me without answering as a local authority, because I'm only an officer in the region team. But I think, you know, with all due respect, I will answer the question as best I can. I think for me, it's the opportunity, as I'm going to go around a little bit, it's the opportunity to engage in a wider network. That is the strength as a council officer, you have a task to do, whether that's a grant fund, whether that's a political directive from the executive board, a recommendation of a scrutiny committee, and you've got to go away and find a way of delivering that. And with all of the important legislation around engagement and involvement, we always have to get to the citizen at the end of the day. But a really powerful way of doing that is using the organizations that have access to those same citizens or citizens that we don't as a team. And I think if you think about, although Spencer and Maria made the point around the members of the group are there as sort of the passionate, ambitious individuals that they are. But if you think about the organizations behind them, there are tens of thousands of people there. And so when it comes to seeking views, when it comes to seeking that, that sort of mandates may be not the right word for me. But in terms of knowing that you're on the right lines, you know, when you test your your placemaking theories and your principles and your your objectives through multiple voices, then I think there's the strength there. And that's something that certainly makes the job a lot easier. I think what we're now seeing again, just just to highlight and David's point around that ecosystem of different networks. So I think it's not all about the civic leadership group. It's about our approach is about engaging with partners effectively and understanding what each partner can bring to the table. And they're not a delivery agent. So I think in terms of the barrier, the barrier is that these these very enthused, passionate people with very large organizations behind them, they're not there to deliver. That does often fall on the shoulders of the local authority because we either have the statutory or the kind of general responsibility to do that. And so it's just about making sure that we're putting the capacity in the right place in the right way. The reason I said unlimited answer regeneration is obviously the presentations highlighted the direction of travel is now looking at younger people and aspiration. I think there are certainly some opportunities for me in terms of the emerging tackling poverty strategy. And we've discussed that in this committee, particularly on the aspiration for young people and then the public health and how that inter intersects with each other. And really then just gives us a better platform as a local authority to position our work and I know that that work will will reach the places it needs to reach. So, yeah, I think capacity. We still have to probably do a lot of the hands on delivery. I think increasingly as they're not a delivery agent, they can be more influential and they can get people on board. But ultimately, I suppose as a regeneration section, we still have only got the officers that we've got to to sort of translate that into into activity. Yeah. So the success is going to be how well we align, isn't it? Basically. Thank you, Councillor Gary Brown. Welcome. Thanks, Chair, and sorry to be late joining you earlier on. Thanks very much for the presentation, Maria and Spencer. That was amazing. Really good work. And thank you for the time that you're putting in to spur Rexon ever forward. Andrew's actually just addressed part of what I was going to raise as a question, so I'll raise it anyway. But it's the sense I'm guessing is that the work you are leading on naturally is about economic development. It's about the cultural growth, the cultural ambition. And it's in some ways, it's the nice stuff. It's the things that Rexon is really good at. And it's building those and making them even stronger. We need you to be doing that. Absolutely. But I'm interested in this public health landscape aspect, because there is a there is a danger that we can. We just need to balance things between the growth and further opportunity for those that maybe already have opportunities. Making those even better. And then also those that are still excluded from a lot of what most of us might consider normal activities. That's just social exclusion. And that does link so directly, I think, with that broad topic of public health and health inequalities. Now, that isn't quite so much fun. It's not as exciting. But when I think of the title of a civic leaders group. I think of actually everybody pulling together to tackle the hard, intransient stuff, the deep roots of poverty that we have in Rexon, child poverty, the transport difficulties. A whole range of things that you're demonstrating so effectively how you can apply your collective minds to help us grow the city and grow the reputation and grow the image. I look forward to seeing how those minds can also be used to tackle these more, you know, bedded in problems. And the anti-poverty strategy is a certain part of that. So I welcome Andrew's reference to that. I've been really interested in Maria or Spencer giving a comment on how they see that public health and anti-poverty agenda may be being looked at by the CLG. Maria, you indicate. Yeah, and thank you. That is a really good question, because it really ties in with some of the more recent thinking within the group where we have been talking about how to support young people raising aspirations. And there are some recent data which I've seen which aren't really good because they basically say that across Wales and particularly in North Wales. There is a higher percentage of young people who are not in either education or in any form of training or in any form of employment, a higher percentage. It's 11 percent of people in the age category, 18 to I think 21, 22. And that is much higher than it is in the rest of the UK. So we have a really serious problem here because clearly we want to get the best out of people and we need these people as well because it is going to be all hands to the pump when it comes to filling vacancies. We've got a demographic time bomb in our region. So we need young people to be ambitious and to make sure that they pursue education and training opportunities and then get good jobs. It's in everyone's interest, but for some reason that's not what's happening right now and it's heading in the wrong direction because that percentage of young people not in education, employment or training is increasing. Despite the way that we like to think, there are so many opportunities and so what are we doing or what are we failing to do to address that? And we actually at our last meeting we had quite a long discussion about that and we're starting to generate some ideas as to what we could do together to help open up and to reduce those maybe perceived barriers and encourage more young people to do better for themselves. Because that is also very much connected with public health because usually where there isn't high achievement or where there is low achievement across education, employment and training, you also have poor public health. They absolutely go hand in hand. So it's very much on the agenda. Thank you for a wonderful reply there and I fully agree we need to be looking after our youngsters because they are not to be cliche, they are our future and if we want the town to grow into the fantastic city that it could be, we need to support our youngsters as much as possible. Councillor Dan Davis, you've got your hand up again, would you like to come back in? There was a final question that Spencer was going to pick up for me but I've also as well got some, I've tried to find Wrexham's common purpose documents and it seems to have completely disappeared and I'm wondering because that was set up quite some time ago and very much pre-COVID and Maria now has very much highlighted the issue with needs, we've never been anywhere near 11% in Wrexham previously have we, we used to hold I think about 2.8% on needs. So I'm just wondering whether the civic leadership group are looking at potentially reviewing that common purpose or tweaking it and whether that will, whether you would provide us the scrutiny committee with a copy of that because I think the input that we've had from the officers as part of the partnership working that you're doing It's very much, we need to really work closely in order for the agendas to align to have a positive impact on the public health, the social exclusion and all these really had to resolve areas as part of the whole improving Wrexham agenda. And I'm wondering as well, the officer mentioned we've got the tackling poverty agenda coming before us and I'm just wondering whether it's worth as well because in the reports that I see going to the executive and coming into scrutiny, I don't see us maximising this partnership that we've got with the civic leadership group from the point of view of consultation into those reports. And I'm just wondering whether that's something that the civic leadership group themselves would welcome because I think I certainly would on the end that, you know, reads those reports and challenges, you know, the direction of those reports and then, you know, potentially makes decisions on the back of those. So yeah, just some feedback on that, if possible, and the outstanding question that, you know, we got up at Canada Way then with regards to, you know, where that conversation led us, but the outstanding question to Spencer, thank you. Spencer. OK, thank you. A couple of, again, thank you, Diana, you posed lots of really interesting questions. The first thing I would say before I come back to the original question, let's go to the later ones first. The common purpose was of its time. So the common purpose goes back to 2019. It laid out eight ideas, many of which have actually been delivered or transformed into something else, such as, you know, the, you know, fed into the place making strategy or put in place, such as the development loan fund. So that was of its time. So I don't think there's any intention to go back and to revamp that. However, we are looking at the areas that we laid out in the next steps. There's not a document. We're very much in the discussion phase and seeing how we can, you know, what areas we might be able to come to to contribute to, but also which are the partners we might need to partner with. Because once you start, you know, there's a very different agenda to talking about place making and knocking down buildings to young people's aspirations and long term health. So the partnerships that you need to do, you know, in the latter form are very, very different. So more to come on that. I don't like doing strategy on the hoof or committing on behalf of my colleagues on the CLG, but there's definitely more to come. On consultation on reports. And I again, I don't want to speak on behalf of the on behalf of the of the rest of the CLG. There's two thoughts that run around in my mind. The first thing is we are nonpolitical and in no way, shape or form would I or anybody else want to step into that political arena and be, you know, and make them make that mistake? We're not elected representatives of of the of the of Rexham residents. We're here for the purpose of we're volunteers who want to try and make desperately try and make a difference because we believe in Rexham. And I've lived here all my life. I want it to be the best place. I want my children to live here, hopefully for for for their lives. So and so I think there is a there is a danger in that. But of course, if there's if there's ways in which we can collaborate with the local authority and be partners and to play that partnership role in the way in which we did so with PR and other initiatives that happened within the Time Centre Fund. Then I personally am all ears and I'm sure as would the rest of the CLG be. So I think, you know, as long as it treads the fine line that that we don't step into the political arena, more than happy to to to work and continue to work in in that partnership way. And just on that point before I move off it, I just do want to commend Andrew. He probably won't thank me for doing it, but he has been a steadfast voice throughout the last six years and actually a highly talented voice. I always enjoy my interactions with Andrew. He always adds something to the party. So I think we're very, very lucky to have him here in in Rexham and in the job that he does. So I just want to make that point in front of in front of the committee. The last I'm going back to the last question was on communication and how do we communicate? It's not really covered within our MOU memorandum of understanding how we communicate with other partners. So again, Dana, you know, I'm open to conversation offline around that. And if you've got any thoughts, the way in which we've come across it thus far has been very much. And we understand some of the challenges and then we we go into our own organisations or we use our network. So Maria gave some great examples, you know, that those 4000 people that were interviewed as part of the placemaking strategy, we very used our network and we used our organisations to help drive that. And so that's the way in which we do things through the network into the organisation. But, you know, again, you know, we don't have the monopoly on good ideas. Right. So more than happy to hear any and any suggestions or ideas, you know, offline. Thank you very much. Oh, Councillor Gary Brown. And then I'm going to ask if anyone else wants to make any questions before we go to recommendations. Thanks, Chair. Different question this time and apologies, it could be because I was late that I missed this, but the CLG, when it talks about REXOM, a lot of what we've been talking about here is city centre centric. Are we talking just specifically this group have a brief across or to conceive itself to have a brief across the whole community borough. So you can have that clarified. And secondly, can we be confident that we are giving enough attention to the urban villages, the rural areas of the county borough to make sure that those economic things that we're trying to really drive forward. Can be accessed by everybody. And this isn't, this isn't in a sense, I know we've got the town fund, that's very clearly about a place for the boundary as a city centre. But, you know, if we're talking about the county borough, then again, the grouping that we've got is people that I'm sure got an interest in the whole county borough. But just really powerful. And how do we make sure that we're taking everybody with us really. Yes. So the focus of the work has has been very much on the centre of what was the town now the city, but bearing in mind that for any area to be successful you need to have a strong city at the heart of it. So that's how we've defined it. So, and actually, interestingly, when we did that survey, a lot of the commentary that came back was also about all the beautiful things out in the in the borough that we have, the aqueduct, obviously, and that is part of what we identify as Rexxent. So it's, it's not an either or, but it is very much with the focus of the work to date. Now that may change, but to date, we have looked very much at what do we need to do in what's now the city centre to help to help create a hub, which is going to then have a positive impact radiating out into all of the Rexxent County Borough Council because, of course, it is a local authority for the whole the whole County Borough Council and we absolutely appreciate that. And I think on the membership of the CLG, we have people who are interested in in the whole area and that's that's a given. So I hope that answers your question, but it's it's that that's that's how we've operated so far. And just to add to Maria's point, thank you very much for that, Gary, as somebody who lives in one of those villages outside of Rexxent, it's very much, you know, my heart is probably in the same position to yours. I'm very proud of my coid-poith roots. So, yeah, the CLG, yes, the the a vibrant town centre and the common purpose was specifically around around the town centre, but it did look at some of the, you know, how we connect to the outside. But very much the agenda that that we're thinking about now is County Borough wide. Thank you both for those responses. That's brilliant. Thank you. Thank you very much. Anyone else wish to speak today? No one's indicating members of the committee are asked to formulate their conclusions and recommendations based on the information of the report and discussions of the meeting. Great. I think Councillor Davies, do you indicate to speak and make a recommendation? Councillor Davies. Yes, thank you. I think we've got a role to play in here from the point of view of, you know, what we've heard today in the work of the Civic Leadership Group and that strong partnership between the local authority and the wider, you know, network across Wrexham with the membership that's on the Civic Leadership Group. I think we can help with the communication, can't we? Because there is going to be some communication on the back of this meeting as to, you know, how that partnership work has been developed. And from what Spencer and Maria were telling us today as well, there's a lot of new stuff, if I could put it that way, that you're developing and that you're looking into around the, you know, the long term public health, social exclusion and around the needs issue. And we've just had the North Wales poverty stats as well, haven't we? Recent publication. So I think from that point, I would like and I would hope that representatives of the Civic Leadership Group come back to scrutiny. And I'm more than open for the chair and the vice chair to, you know, to come forward with a recommendation to the scrutiny committee, whether that's twice a year or annually, just to keep us in the loop, because I think that alignment work is really crucial. But there's an element here as well from, you know, we know the budget pressures we've got coming up over the next two years. There's always going to be that value for money question that we have to answer to the residents of Wrexham with regards to, you know, we're resourcing and Spencer spoke very, very highly of, you know, Andrew. I hold that same opinion. But I also know, you know, the work rate and the amount of, you know, the amount of work that our officers are dealing with as well. So we've got to consider that. And I think having this access via scrutiny to understand and support the wider work of the Civic Leadership Group, I think it will benefit answering that value for money question, supporting resourcing, the council resourcing the Civic Leadership Group, but also as well ensuring that we're very much aligned on that journey of, you know, making Wrexham the best it can be. So that would be my recommendation. And also in those meetings, if you can keep us appraised of what the new agenda, how that new agenda is developing, and then we can align. There's a lot of work that the scrutiny committee is already looking at. The placemaking strategy, the, you know, anti-poverty agenda and everything that aligns to, you know, what the Civic Leadership Group is taking forward as well. So, yeah, I'd like to make a recommendation that we keep in regular contact with the Civic Leadership Group. If there are opportunities where officers believe, you know, feedback from them with regards to different reports, you know, I'm thinking the tackling poverty agenda as part of the consultation, but within that report. But definitely a recommendation to invite them back, whether that's an annual invite or whether that's twice a year. I'll leave that open to, you know, the Civic Leadership Group themselves and also officers to feed in on that chair. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Davis. I'm just, just because the group only meets six times a year, I don't think a yearly feedback to ourselves is really going to, I wouldn't want to say produce much, but maybe we could have more of an information report when action is taken. But I think we should leave that to the Civic Leadership Group to come back to us if it's OK, ideally once a year. But just with them only meeting six times a year, I'd be a bit concerned that we'd be bringing them back to talk about. Not quite a lot. Craig, recommendations? Thank you, Chair. Just confirm that. So what the committee have asked for is a update on the work of the Civic Leadership Group at a time period to be determined. And I'll be following consultation with the chairman and vice chair and that work would update us on how we align, how their work aligns with work ongoing in Wrexham and how their agenda is developing. And the second part of the recommendation would be if there are opportunities for officers to consult the group, they do so in relevant reports. Can we just tie in there as well in recommendation one, please, about the resourcing and the value for money? Because I think that, you know, that gives us and that provides assurance to the public, doesn't it, with regards to the budget process that we're going to be going through. OK, I'll add those two points on the final point of that recommendation. Thank you. Are we all happy with those two recommendations? Go to vote. I'd just like to thank our guests today for an excellent presentation and to the officers for supporting them today with their works. Thank you. I guess you may leave. We have an item on the work agenda just to go through. But by all means, please feel free to leave and thank you very much for all the work you do. Thank you for having us. Thank you very much. No, you may also leave. OK. Item five, the work programme. Great. Thank you, chair. Really, this is just information for the committee to consider. There's an update of 4.2 at the changes that were made at your previous meeting in May. I'll take any questions. I think the one thing that I will just draw some members' attention is that our next meeting is due to be a site meeting that will take place at the World Heritage Site in July. But I'll take any questions. Thank you. Any questions, Councillor Davis? Yeah. Can I just ask if you're doing a site visit at the World Heritage Site, are we going to try and schedule that for an earlier time? I'm just wondering, are we doing a four o'clock site visit? Are we aligning it to the time of the meeting? Because obviously, you know, I think, has that been discussed or has the time been set? It could be, there's no set at the present time, obviously, it would be scheduled in, as in the council calendar for 4pm. But what we can do is, obviously, we can look at that. I think if that's an issue that members want us to consider, then we can discuss that with the Chair and Vice-Chair, and Councillor Davis in the occasion as well. Yeah, thanks for that. Looking at the timing, I think I'm agreeing possibly with what Diana might be thinking. If we go at a later visit, we're not really going to see it at a busy time, and it'd be better to see, go there and see it when it's active or busy so we can really assess what's going on. If we go there at four or five o'clock, chances are it'll be, it might have gone by then. So maybe at two o'clock, something like that, I don't know. Depends what other people want to do, obviously. Yeah, as Acting Chair, I fully agree. I think an earlier time would be if we could ask the officers who were arranging the visit to see if that's acceptable. Anything else with the Work Programme? I'm just conscious that, obviously, we've got a new Chair and Vice-Chair, which, by the way, we welcome the new Chair, being Councillor Bill Baldwin and the Vice-Chair, Andy Williams. We hope we have a fantastic year. Please come back. This is terrifying. But I think it's up to the Chair and Vice-Chair to guide us with this Work Programme, and I would like to probably just let them come back next meeting with agenda. We have a couple of juicy topics in the Work Programme that need to be scheduled, and I'd just ask if we ask them to schedule them in, because, obviously, time's going to be precious for us. Is everyone in? Oh, sorry, can I go Mike Davidson in the room first, please? Yeah, I'd just like to say thank you for stepping up until the unexpected, literally, two minutes beforehand. I think you did a really good job, so well done. Thank you. Councillor Dan Davidson's screen. Yeah, thank you, Chair. I am really, really concerned about the Work Programme that it is very light, and I'm just wondering whether the Vice-Chair and the Chair can have a conversation with the officers. Normally we do, Craig will be able to fill us in on the correct terminology, but we normally do a Work Programme planning meeting. Yeah, a pre-plan. Yeah, and I'm wondering if we can slot that in and pick up pace on this, because I'm conscious the officers need a heads up as to what reports are coming forward, so that they can resource that for us. And it's really important that we don't take our eye off the ball with regards to economic development and regeneration in Wrexham, because we'll miss all the opportunities with regards to the green agenda and everything else, transport and everything else that potentially links into this. So yeah, I'm minded and I'm hopeful that if the Chair and Vice-Chair can have a conversation with officers as soon as, and even if we need an extra meeting before September, for example, where we can just have some idea of areas that we can look at with regards to what's coming forward from an economic development point of view, planning. Yeah, thank you Councillor Davis, I fully concur with that. Craig, is it potential of a, if we could take that back to the Chair and Vice-Chair to consider. And I'd also welcome maybe a workshop topic request session before September so that we can get some bit more interesting topics towards the, on the agenda. Craig? Yes Chair, I think Councillor Davis has outlined what occurs, we do have a sort of, how can I put it, a soft touch review with the work programme during normally the recess period. Obviously with us having a new Chair and Vice-Chair in situ, they'll be involved in this process at this time. Looking at your work programme, I think what we have done is, with the consultation of the previous Chair, we've made sure that you've got plenty of items at the start of the next term, sorry, at the start of the post recess period. So there may actually be, you're not going to be, not having any work but we'll come up with a more fully developed work programme at the September meeting. Then obviously if it's required that we can have a further longer discussion at that point. But I would imagine that when I come back to you with the work programme report in September, basically there'll be no gaps, there'll be proposals for all of those dates. Thank you very much, Craig. Go on, Councillor Davis. Yeah, topic request consideration. I think it would be remiss of committee not to pick up the 11% dates and I would request as much of urgency that we have a report scheduled into the work programme on dates and see if we can look at inviting the likes of Collicambria and other organisations that feed into that. I understand we may need some representation from our Education Department because we do have some six forms, don't we, operating. But yeah, anything like that. I think, you know, I've never known a figure like that in Wrexham, it's normally always well-being. I think it's sort of held at 2.3%, 2.8% previously, so 11% for Wrexham is frightening. Absolutely, Craig. Thank you, Councillor Davis. Craig. Yes, Chair, I'd be happy to work on a topic selection form with Councillor Davis if she wishes to submit one. I think the one issue to raise there, obviously, is we have got the tackling poverty strategy that's coming to us at the September meeting. So, although not a specific needs item, I'm sure that some of the issues around needs could be raised at that September meeting. Can we add that to the meeting? No. I think the issue without having the topic selection form agreed is a bit difficult to actually specify what we required. I understand that the issues are raised, but I think that we can work on something and get that to you quite quickly. But, you know, there is the opportunity, I think, for needs to be discussed at that tackling poverty issue. Councillor Gary Brown, do you need to come in? Yeah, I think there is the opportunity to reference it within the anti-poverty work. I think there's clearly an overlap, well, more than an overlap, but the needs topic itself is a very, very broad and complex matter. So, I'd suggest that we do follow through that as a separate topic request. It might be useful to steer David Fitzsimons and Andrew Harradine in the direction of making reference to it in the anti-poverty report. But, no, I think we need to go into some detail on this. This is a very concerning development and I suppose it's concerning, but in some ways it's also mirroring what's been going on in our attendance rates at primary schools and secondary schools. You know, so maybe it's just a natural consequence of that disaffection that we're seeing post the chaos of the pandemic and so on. So, I'm sure there's reasons, but we certainly should be prioritising a focus for it. There might also be worth Craig talking with your colleagues that support the Lifelong Learning Scrutiny Committee as well, because maybe this is a report that education need to lead on. I think particularly Donna Dickinson would normally be the officer that would report on this. And it's a topic that needs to be considered both by you, best done by Lifelong Learning. So maybe, either through the chairs or through US Committee office so you can see if that link can be made. Thank you very much Caz Brown. Caz Davis? Yeah, if I can make a suggestion, I think, because needs has been not in employment, education or training, I think EBISC in the past have always taken a lead on it. And then we've made recommendations into Lifelong Learning, if it was the education link. So, if that helps to try and keep us focused on getting to the point where we proactively, you know, looking at what levers we can pull to support and that reduction in those needs. Then, yeah, we can always do that. Then if the report comes to EBISC, we can make the recommendations to education, but I agree the officer does need to be invited along to EBISC to have that, to participate in the debate. Yeah, definitely. Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much. Craig, are you happy? I'm pleased to say I'm happy to bring this meeting to a close. Thank you very much for everyone's attendance and yeah, I enjoyed that. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much, Councillor Galandas.

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