Transcript

Transcript

Welcome to the reconvened annual council meeting. Please be seated. Please be seated. You don't need to stand, okay? I don't need to stand. Okay. Sorry. We'll get there. Okay. But then I'd rather stand. Is that okay? Because you all look so far away when you're sitting down. Before we start the formal proceedings this afternoon, I would like to thank the Reverend Callan, Dr. Jason Bray for joining us today, this will be Jason's last council meeting at Wrexham County Borough Council. Jason, I'm sure that might be a sense of relief. Most of you will be aware, most of you will be aware that Jason will be departing from Wrexham in July to take up his new position as Dean of Clandagh Cathedral. Jason has been Mayor's Chaplain and the Vicar at St. Giles for the last nine years. He has participated and led many civic and military events and services during that time, not to mention the hundreds, possibly thousands of other services at St. Giles. His wealth of knowledge, both historical and theological can always be relied upon to inject some little known and interesting fact about Wrexham into the many services he has led. Jason has become a bit of a celebrity during his time in Wrexham, appearing on Bargain Hunt and Good Morning, and of course, welcome to Wrexham, also hosted a visit by the King and the Queen during the service to mark Wrexham city status in 2022. No doubt you will take many more wonderful memories of Wrexham with you when you depart in the summer. Last year, Jason marked 25 years since he was ordained, so now seems a good time to start a new chapter in your life by returning to your roots in South Wales. Jason, congratulations on your new appointment. I hope you will find it thoroughly rewarding and we are eternally grateful for the support that you have given to this Council on behalf of everyone in this Council Chamber and the many former Councillors, Officers and past Mayors you have supported as Chaplain. Thank you so much Jason, you will be very much missed. I have known you very long, but I know what a remarkable gentleman you are and you have been well loved in Wrexham, it's Dick Ockenbell. Thank you, thank you very much, I wasn't quite sure what to expect, but thank you. Wrexham of course is an amazing place, am I allowed to address the Council for a few moments? Yes, please do. It's an amazing place, it's getting more amazing by the day and I'm just sorry that I'm not going to be here to see the next amazing chapter in your history, but it's been an absolute delight sharing with you as much as I have and thank you very much for your invitation this afternoon and for your exceedingly kind words. So as always, if you wish to join me, I will say some prayers. Blessed Lord, the work of this Council and all who live in this city and county borough, grant that all the decisions made by this Council may be for the benefit of all, so that together we may grow in love and in service of one another and may serve the common good. We ask this through Jesus our Lord, Amen. Thank you very much everyone. Thank you. I have received apologies for absence from the following members. Trevor Bates and Councillor Graham Rogers, are there any more apologies? No. Item agenda number four, declarations of personal interest. Do members have any personal interest to declare in respect of any of the items of the business before the Council this evening? Agenda item number five, are the minutes of the meeting held on the 20th of March confirmed as correct, I call on Councillor Mark Pritchard. Madam Mayor, before I move the minutes, can I just speak on behalf of the Chamber and congratulate yourself. Well done. And I know that you'll be a fantastic person, individual, for the role that you're going to lead in this ensuing year. But also to congratulate Tina Manning, the Deputy Mayor, congratulations, well done. And as I said, as you said yesterday, I think it's important, two females at the helm and yet we will be on our guard, I can assure you. So once again, congratulations and I wish you both the very best. Madam Mayor, I'm happy to move that the minutes are a true and correct record for the 20th of March. Thank you. Do we have a seconder? Thank you, Madam Mayor, quite happy to second the leader. Are all agreed? Unanimous, thank you. Agenda item number six, it's my pleasure to be chairing my first Council meeting as Mayor and I'm looking forward to working with you all in the next 12 months. After the success of the recent Focus Wales earlier this month, there are more big events taking place in the city centre. On Thursday the 6th of June, we will commemorate 80 years since D-Day with a church service parade and wreath laying. The following day we will have the Women's Tour of Britain stage, starting and finishing in the city centre. I look forward to attending both of those. I would like to inform members that my civic visit to church will be taking place on Sunday the 23rd of June at St Giles Parish Church. Your formal invitations will follow and I would appreciate your support. I know Sundays are very special, they're family days, but it would be lovely to see some of you there. Finally, may I take this opportunity to thank Councillor Andy Williams and his son Luke for their time as Mayor and Consort of Wrexham County Borough. Andy, enjoy your new found free time to your convo. Item Agenda Number 7, Election of Leader, Chair of the Executive Board. I would now like to invite nominations for the election of a Leader of the Council and Chair of the Executive Board for the Ensuring Year and call on Councillor David Bittle. Yes, thank you, Mr. Madam Mayor. I'd like to propose Councillor Mark Pritchett for the Leader of the Council for the Ensuring Year. I call on somebody to second it, Paul Pemberton. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I would like to second Mark Pritchett to be Leader of the Council for the forthcoming year. Thank you. Thank you. I will now put the proposition to the Council for approval. All those in favour? Anybody again? We can't take the veggie part. Can you keep your hands up, please? All those in favour? Any against, please? And any abstentions? So we have 38 in favour, 13 against and one abstention, so that's for approval. Thank you. Under Item 8, Appointment of Deputy Leader, Vice-Chair of the Executive Board, I would like to now invite nominations for the election of Deputy Leader of the Council and Vice-Chair of the Executive Board for the coming year. Councillor Mark Pritchett. Thank you, Madam Mayor. It gives me great delight to propose and nominate Councillor David Aberthal for the election of the Deputy Leader of the Council and Vice-Chair of the Executive Board for the ensuing year. Thank you. Do we have a seconder? Councillor John Phillips. Thank you, Madam Mayor. More than happy to second the Leader's nomination for Councillor David Aberthal as Deputy Leader. Thank you. Are there any other nominations? I will now put the proposal to the Council for approval. All those in favour. Ayes. Ayes. Ayes. Do we have anybody against? So that's 44 in favour and 8 against. So the motion is passed. Appointment of members, item agenda number nine. Appointment of members to Executive Board committees, scrutiny committees and various panels. The Chief Officer, Governance and Customer will introduce this item. Good morning, Madam Mayor. So this is the report to the annual meeting today dealing with the appointments to the various committees of the Council. I will outline the recommendations on what we usually do is that we ask that these are then voted for in block unless there's any changes required. But in the main, the issues for this afternoon are appointing members to the Executive Board, the sizes and political balance of the standing committees and scrutiny committees, appointing members to those standing committees and scrutiny committees, the chairs of the scrutiny committees and the Democratic Services Committee, the chairs and vice chairs of Planning Committee, Environmental Licensing Committee, together with vice chairs of Democratic Services Committee and scrutiny committees, the size and political balance of the various panels and groups that are set out in the appendix three with you this afternoon. Also note that there is no requirement now for the school transport hazardous routes appeals panel because of the changes in the legislation. So that's to be disbanded. The terms of reference of the panels and groups are set out in appendix four. And we also ask I also ask that group leaders and non-aligned members notify myself of any outstanding vacant seats nominations for those within seven days of this meeting. Helen Coomer circulated to you earlier this afternoon the list of committee memberships that she's already been notified of. I've got one more to add to that for the CPRG customers performance scrutiny that Mike Davis would like the non-aligned seat on that scrutiny committee. Otherwise, the list is as circulated to you earlier. I'd say there are a few vacancies still on those, but if I could have notifications for filling those within the next seven days. So, Madam Mayor, that is the report for this afternoon. Can I ask Councillor Mark Pritchard to move the recommendations? Yes, thank you, Madam Mayor. I'm happy to move the recommendations within the report from 3/1 to 3/9. Can I just take this opportunity, this time to thank the monitoring officer, Helen, the team. Thank you for your patience. It's a very busy time for politicians and it's not always easy and once again, I'd like to thank you for your patience. It's very much appreciated by this chamber. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Do we have a seconder? Oh, I beg your pardon. Madam Mayor, can I clarify to you, the homes and environment scrutiny committee seems to have a vacancy on it, if I read it rightly. Even you've got 12 names and there's 13 on the committee. If that's correct, I attend that meeting more than even the people who got a vote on that committee. I attend it more often. I would like to put myself forward here tonight, if possible. If there's a vacancy, thank you. Madam Mayor, we do need that the recommendations are seconded before debate, but we can discuss that with you, Councillor Prince, if that's okay after the meeting, we'll resolve that for you. Councillor Prince, we'll contact you and discuss that separately after the meeting to resolve that for you. Thank you for raising it. So can I call on Councillor Biffle to second? Yes, thank you, Madam Mayor. I'm quite happy to second the leader and clearly, obviously, we've got seven days for nominations from the respective groups, but we note Councillor Prince's request to attend the homes and environment scrutiny committee, to be fair, he does, because I'm there quite regular. So subject to the respective groups, I think, you know, we could support Councillor Prince, but obviously we just have to wait for the seven days to come back. So quite happy to do that, Madam Mayor. Thank you. Are there any other speakers? I will now put the recommendations to the vote. All those in favour? Looks like unanimous. Thank you very much. Item agenda number 10, the standards committee reappointment of independent members, the chief officer governance and customer would introduce this item. Dear Madam Mayor, two of the independent members on our standards committee, their term ends later this year in September. They have been asked as to whether they are willing to serve for a second term on that standards committee, and both have indicated that they are willing to do that. So the recommendation for this afternoon is for Mrs. Elizabeth Granger and Mr. Steven Tilston to be reappointed to serve as independent members on the standards committee. And that will be for a term of four years, which is allowed in the legislation relating to standards committee deal. Can I call on Councillor Brian Aspley to, to move the recommendation, please? Yeah, thank you, Madam Mayor. I was to move the recommendation that Mrs. Elizabeth Granger and Mr. Steven Tilston be reappointed as independent members of the standards committee for the second consecutive term of four years until the 25th of September, 2028. Is there a seconder? Madam Mayor, I'd like to second that proposal. Are there any other speakers? I will now put the recommendation to the vote. All those in favour. Yes, unanimous. Thank you very much. Item number 11. The chief officer, governance and customer will introduce this item. Calendar of meetings, do you have before you this afternoon, the proposed draft annual calendar of meetings for council executive board scrutiny on the standing committees for 2024 2025 and we've also included on that the proposed dates for the all member workshops and member development and it goes ahead to all this next year to hopefully allow you to plan some holiday time that is required as well and so the dates are as indicated on the draft calendar of meetings. Of course, we're aware that sometimes during the year circumstances change and we need to move those but we will obviously liaise with chairs, members, et cetera if that's needed but otherwise I'd ask for approval of the draft annual calendar this afternoon. Councillor Mark Pritchard, would you like to move the recommendations? Yes, thank you, Madam Mayor, I'm happy to move the recommendations of the draft as the monitoring officer has said but just with one caveat, obviously I see it every year but it is in the gift of the scrutiny committees on what time they meet and that's in their gift and that should always be the case so subject to that I move the recommendations. Thank you. Is there a seconder? Yes, thank you, Madam Mayor, quite happy to second the leader. Are there any other speakers? I will now put the recommendations to the vote. All those in favour? Unanimous again, thank you very much. Item agenda number 12, independent lay members, the chief officer for finance and ICT will introduce this item. The purpose of this report is twofold, is to firstly agree the recommendation from the members appointment panel for the appointment of one independent lay member. The report in front of you says subject to references because of when the report was written but I can confirm we have had satisfactory references received now to the governance and audit committee for the period up to and including 24th of May, 2028. The second part of the report is to agree the extension of the three current independent lay members to the governance and audit committee for the period up to and including 24th of May, 2028. The requirements in statute around the membership of the governance and audit committee changed from May, 2022. These revised requirements ensure that two-thirds of the committee members are from the local authority and one-third are laypersons and the layperson is chair of the committee. Full council in March agreed to the creation of an appointments panel to make a recommendation to fill a vacancy arising on the governance and audit committee from the end of May. In paragraphs 4.5 and 4.6, you can see details of that appointments panel and note that Caris Edwards was the recommendation of the panel to serve on the governance and audit committee up until May, 24th, 2028. In terms of the extension of the current existing lay members, the three lay members of the government and audit committee were initially appointed by council in May, 2022 for the period up until 31st of May, 2024. It is proposed that the three current lay members terms are extended for a further four years until 24th of May, 2028. This principle of extension as with the appointment of a new lay member has been in place and consistently used since 2012. The governance and audit committee lay members were appointed through full recruitment process that was agreed by the full council on 25th of May, 2022. Paragraphs 4.10 of the report notes the three names of the existing three lay members as Trevor Coxon, David Stewart and Donald Sturgeon. The governance, sorry, the local government measure 2011 recommends that a lay member should not be appointed for more than two full terms of a local authority, i.e. 10 years. The extension proposed would take the appointment period to six years. The proposed extension of the current lay members appointments would allow continuity consistency of service and would help to ensure that the governance and audit committee continues to function effectively whilst meeting its terms of reference. Recommendation two of the report deals solely with the extension of the lay members terms of office. Two recommendations to this report, recommendation 3.1 and recommendation 3.2. Recommendation 3.1 is that the council approves the recommendation of the appointments panel that the successful applicant be appointed as an independent lay member of the governance and audit committee for a period up to and including 24th of May, 2028. Recommendation 3.2, that council approves the extension of the three current independent lay members to the governance and audit committee for a further period up to and including 24th of May, 2028. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Are we going to have that proposed, please? Thank you, Madam Mayor. Madam Mayor, can I say thank you for the presentation. Madam Mayor, I'm happy to support 3.1 as it is, but 3.2 I'll move an amendment to the recommendations that the council supports that an advert goes out for the recruitment of three independent lay members of the governance and audit committee for the period up to 24th of May, 2028. Thank you. Is there a seconder? Yes, thanks, Madam Mayor. I second the leader. Are there any other speakers? Donna. Thank you, Madam Mayor. There's a concern with the amendment from the point of view of, you know, the audit and governance committee is predicated upon statutory membership. So if we're replacing recommendation 3.2 with the amendment, then we are not extending the term of three lay members for the audit and governance committee. In our constitution under section nine of the constitution, this is a regulatory committee, which is independent of the executive and council. And therefore, the strict legislation that requires, that supports the function and membership of the committee. So if I refer to, and our constitution refers to, you know, that we should be following the legal statutory legislation under the local government wheels measure 2011. So I'm going to refer to section 82, which is the membership, because I think you all need to be aware that by not supporting the ratification of the three lay members extension of terms, then basically that committee, you are putting that committee into a defunct position, nonfunctioning position. In section 82 of the legislation, paragraph two says, a local authority must secure that one third of the membership of the committee is lay members and two thirds of the membership are members of the authority. It also goes on to say that you can only have one member of the executive and that the senior member of the executive should not be a member of the committee. And that's the separation between the executive and council of that statutory committee. Paragraph five of section 82 of the legislation says, and this is the crucial bit now, it says in case where one or more persons are to become or cease to be members of the governance and audit committee at a particular time, those changes of membership are to be taken into account in determining whether the membership of the committee breaches the legislation, breaches section two. So if we don't extend the membership of the committee and we just go with the amendment, so, you know, there's 3.1 to appoint the new lay member and 3.2 to move to an advert, in other words, not extending the term of the current three members, then we're in breach of the legislation. So on that basis, I would move that we include 3.2, that we include the recommendation of 3.2 so that we do not breach the legislation and move that committee into a nonfunctioning committee. Because council's next meeting is September, so regardless of an appointment process, it's not going to be ratified at council until September. So between now and September, the audit and governance committee will be nonfunctioning because of the amendment that's just been put. So I'm moving an additional amendment, a second amendment, the wording of 3.2 in the report as is, so that we keep within the legislation and we have a fully functioning audit and governance committee in compliance with the legislation. Thank you, chair.

Thank you, Donna. Can I bring Linda in, please? The legislation does provide, yes, that one-third are to be lay members and two-thirds to be councilors, and our constitution covers that. There can be occasions, though, when there are vacancies for lay members, and that does not stop the committee functioning at that point. I take on board the points about the legislation there, but the committee can still function while recruitment is ongoing. I'm aware from other monitoring offices in Wales that they run sometimes with vacancies on committees while they're recruiting, so it doesn't actually stop the committee functioning at that point. Can I ask for a seconder for that, please? Madam Mayor, I wish to second this, and I also want to move for the recorded vote. Thank you. We will need -- okay. Does anybody else want to speak on the revised amendment? Richard? Thank you, Madam Mayor. I would just like to say that I'm not a member, obviously, of audit, but I have attended as a council guest, and I've also watched it on Zoom, and I've been very impressed by the three members who I think are men, gentlemen of exceptional talent, candor, and ability, and I'd just like to say that I think it would be a very sad day if we lose these people because I just can't understand why that would happen and why anyone would have any animosity to these people who I think have done an excellent job and have stood up for the council. And so I wish to record that. I believe that these three people who are not personal friends, I know one as an acquaintance, but I think they're excellent, and they're doing a wonderful job in preserving the integrity of our council. So I'm at a bit of a loss now what to vote, so I hope that that can be explained to us because I don't want to belittle their role. Thank you. Thank you, Robert. Are there any more speakers? Councillor Morris. Just a simple question, really. Madam Mayor, I just thought about as we were going through the debate then, I realize you haven't got us a seconder for the recorded vote yet, although 10 required people, but at item 10, we've just dealt with lay people on the standards committee, and we've just reappointed unanimously the retiring lay members. Why are we treating this committee any differently to the standards committee? You know, it's exactly the same scenario. We've got two lay people on the standards committee that we've just reappointed for another term, but for some reason on this committee, we're acting differently. And I just would like to understand that more than anything else before I decide which way to go on it. Thank you, Councillor Morris. Is there anybody else? Councillor Biffle. Yes, thank you, Madam Mayor. Just a question, really, just obviously just a simple yes or no, really, just like the monitoring officer, just to confirm there's no breach in legislation with the amendment, and the committee, if I understand Linda's comment, is that the committee can still function with the existing membership while a recruitment process. Can you just confirm there's no breach in legislation and that the committee can still function with the Quorum of the Audit Committee? Yes, the Quorum for Audit Committee is three members. The legislation does not set out who of those three members needs to be, whether they're lay members or committee members. It's very specific for some other committees, for example, standards, but not for that one. Madam Mayor, point of order, please, if I may. On 4.10.1.8 of the constitution, I would ask that the statutory officer consider that this is a council decision to withdraw members from the Audit and Governance Committee. It's not as though lay members have resigned from the committee, and, therefore, I believe that it's a completely different situation. We're not talking about attendance at meetings here. We're talking about the crucial membership, which is, you know, the membership of the committee is predicated on this legislation, and, therefore, paragraph 5 of that is clear in that we as a council need to consider in the decision that we make this evening whether we are moving that committee into non-function. This isn't about being able to recruit lay members. My understanding from the picture across Wales is that that, as described, is in place when there's an issue with recruitment of lay members to fill that third and two-thirds statutory requirement. This isn't -- this is a council decision now in noncompliance with the legislation to purposely remove the lay member, the third requirement of the lay member membership under -- within this committee. What I'd like to ask as well is just because, you know, because we have the statutory officer, our 151 officer who oversees the work of this committee, is there any concerns that the statutory officer has regarding the three lay members in discharging their governance and audit committee duties, because I don't believe the Welsh Audit Office or myself as Vice Chair of the Audit Committee have seen anything but independent lay members actually carrying out their functions in holding this authority to account. And if there's an issue with that, we've got more than an issue of governance within this council. And as Councillor Morris has pointed out, we've just gone through exactly the same process for the standards committee. No issue there. So what's the issue now? Is it just pure self-preservation? Because from where I'm standing, that's exactly what it looks like, Madam Mayor. Thank you. Can I ask Linda to reply? I'll deal with the issue first regarding the actual requirements. As I've said already, the requirements are for one third lay members, two thirds councillors. There is no set provision in the legislation that requires that periods are extended. It is for council this afternoon to consider, and that's why the report is presented, because the current terms of these three lay members end at the end of this month. So it's presented to you this afternoon for consideration. As I've already explained as well, there are occasions when committees run with vacancies. The committee can still run while that recruitment proceeds. Any other speakers, please? Anybody? Oh, yes. We have somebody on screen. Malcolm, thank you. Yes, thank you. And you can see why that would be possible with vacancies, because there aren't vacancies as Don Davies has already pointed out. They're not leaving. We're, in effect, sacking them. I mean, I can see what Michael is asking, and Robert, why is this happening? But I think if we're going to be honest with the people in Wrexham and ourselves, we all know what this is about. They've been too effective in their job of being independent on the audit committee, and it's made us feel uncomfortable, so we're getting rid of them. I mean, that's what the issue is, isn't it? Let's be honest. And just pretending that it's something other than that is just not truthful. So maintain this sort of mystery, and we're going to look for other people, with the implication that these three haven't been doing their job very well. Well, I think it's quite the opposite. They've been too independent and been doing their job too well. That's what the truth of it is. And as for pretending otherwise is less being less than honest with the people that we represent. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Thank you, Malcolm. Can I bring Richard in, please, to answer Donna's question? Thank you, Madam Mayor. No, from my perspective as Section 151 Officer, there's no concern around the extension proposed in the report. Thank you. Any other speakers? No. Can we then ask for a seconder? We've got a seconder. And move to the amendment. Linda's going to read it out. So just on a point of order by way of public explanation, do you need ten of us to stand for the recorded vote? So we're first of all going to deal with the second amendment that was proposed, which in fact is the 3.2 as stated in the report. But I'll read that out first so you're clear on what you're voting for. And that is that Council approves the extension of the three current independent lay members to the Governors and Audit Committee for a further period up to and including 24th of May 2028. And there was a request for a recorded vote on this point. So we ask that there are ten members to indicate. Yes, we've got ten members. Do we need their names? Okay, we're going to record the vote. I will now put the recommendations. I don't think that Councillor Michael Morris was given an answer, and I'd like that answer because it's important in determining my vote. I'm afraid we've gone to the vote now. It's too late. So I will read out the names. Can you clearly indicate for, against or abstain when I read out your name? I remember you are just voting on the 3.2 as I read out, as set out in the report at the moment. Brian Apsley. William Baldwin. Sorry, you don't need to use your microphones. Just shout clearly for me. David A. Bissell. I, David Bissell. Beryl Blackmore. Paul Blackwell. Gary Brown. Brian Cameron. Krista Childs. Annette Davis. Donna Davis. Mike Davis. Terry Evans. Andy Galanders. Carrie Harper. Frank Hemmings. Emma Holland. Pete Howell. Corinne Jarvis. John Jolly. Hugh Jones. Against. Mark Jones. Steve Jones. Jeremy Kent. Malcolm King. For. Claire Lovett. Against. Tina Mannering. Against. Becca Martin. Against. Stella Matthews. For. John McCusker. Against. Mike Morris. For. Jeremy Newton. Beverly Parry-Jones. Against. Paul Pemberton. Against. John Phillips. Against. Ronny Prince. Abstain. John Pritchard. Against. Mark Pritchard. Against. Fred Roberts. Against. Paul Roberts. Against. Rondo Roberts. Against. Paul Rogers. Against. Ross Shepherd. Abstain. Alison Tynan. Against. Debbie Wallace. Against. Rob Walsh. Against. Anthony Wedlake. For. Jerry Wellens. For. Kate Wilkinson. Kate. Yes. Can you say it? Can you repeat, please? Again. Thank you. Andy Williams. Nigel Williams. Robert Ian Williams. For. Derek Wright. For. Phil Nguyen. Against. OK. The voting is as follows. 15 for 36 against and two abstentions. So it's not passed. So can we go back to a vote on the original, please? All those in favour. We're now moving to a vote for the original recommendation. 3.1. All those for. Clarity. So 3.1 is the council approves the recommendation of the appointments panel that the successful candidates named in the report be appointed as an independent lay member to the governance and audit committee for a period up to and including the 24th of May 2028. So just voting on 3.1. Councillor Pritchard. I was just lifting my hand to support 3.1, but Madam Mayor. Who's voting for please. That looks like a new unanimous. And Linda is going to read the next one out now. So we have the amended 3.2 to vote on now, and that reads council supports that an advert goes out for the recruitment of three independent lay members of governance and audit committee for the period up to the 24th of May 2028. All those in favour, please. Have we any against. And any abstentions. So we have 36 for 14 against and for abstention. So the motions carried. Thank you. [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] [BLANK_AUDIO]