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of this meeting so we would encourage anybody who wishes to speak in Welsh to do so. I'm Councillor Karyharpur, Chair of the Lifelong Scutiny Committee. In this multiplication meeting, we've got a number of members present in the room and others joining online. In this room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand for those who wish to speak online, use the Raise Hand Facility to indicate that you wish to speak. When you speak, you are called upon, please switch on your microphone and please switch it off after you've finished speaking. Microphones are operational for those online for them to be able to hear the meeting, so please only speak when contributing to the meeting and please try to reduce any background noise. And please switch off more powerful members who are not members of the committee may be present. These members have an opportunity to participate when invited to do say but they cannot vote. There are a number of officers present including the committee officer who will be operating as the administrator and this meeting is being recorded and will be webcast as soon as possible following the meeting. Participants on Zoom should make a note of the reference of the meetings and if you get any technical difficulties, this number will allow you to rejoin over the phone. If we have a short break, you will be able to rejoin using the first link. If the meeting is postponed, you will be informed about the date and time of the meeting will be held and a new invite to be sent to you. If we hear an alarm in this building, please leave the building as quickly as possible using the nearest fire exits, please assemble through the guilt hall entrance and on to the lawn it will be meaningful. Can I say very warm up to you all? I want to make the effort to try that but apologies if any of it wasn't right. I know we have Welsh speakers and Welsh learners on the committee and everyone is very welcome to contribute in Welsh today. I am not going to go through introductions now but can I ask everybody when they are contributing briefly just to introduce themselves before speaking for the benefit of committee members and also anybody who is watching online. I will move to agenda right and want apologies for absence. I have apologies from Emily Clark, apologies from Leave Member Phil when he is in card if he is going to try and make the meeting but he thinks the meeting he is in there may run over slightly. Ross is here now, we did have apologies from him because he had a flat tie but he has managed to make it in. Also have apologies from Alison Fisher and Councillor Stella Matthews, are there any others? Moving on to item 2, minutes from the meeting on the 7th of March. Any matters are rising, sorry no matters are rising can somebody move and second those? OK, at declarations of personal interest, any declarations people want to make? Nope, moving on to item 4, the work programme and I will hand over to Tracey. Thank you Chair. The work programme is attached to the appendix 1 which is a couple of updates. First of all at the last meeting you would ask in terms of the impact of budget issues on schools. You would ask if you could include something on ALN provision so suggested that the report you have got coming in June that there can be something included in that. You would also ask for future reports from the Sustainable Communities for Learning programme the capital funding in the Council's education estate and also people well-being and it suggested that those reports come back in 12 months so that would be March next year. At that meeting there were also a couple of recommendations made to the Executive Board arising from consideration of the report on capital funding in the education estate. The first one was that any new funding from the flexible revenue support grant be directed towards schools. The second recommendation was that the capital receipt from any disposals of school assets be ringfenced to support the 21st Century Schools programme which is now the Sustainable Communities for Learning. With regard to the third recommendation a decision was made at Council and outlined that in paragraph 4.4. Any additional funding received following publication of the local government final settlements would be applied as prescribed or used to provide additional inflation contingency cover so that was a decision that was made by Council on the 20th of February. The Chief Officer of Finance and ICT is advised that there was no additional funding received following publication of the final settlement. With regard to the second recommendation to the Executive Board regarding capital funding there is a report due to go to the Executive Board in May on the capital estate and the recommendation from this committee and a response to that will be included in that report. In the meantime the Chief Officer of Finance and ICT has advised that it's estimated that currently there will be sufficient had room to provide the formerly assumed for the schools programme and the amount assumed for budget support within assumed capital receipts going forward this year. And then finally Chair, the former groups growth school building at the last meeting you also asked for some information in terms of previous feasibility studies, in terms of progress to the future use of that building. In November the Council submitted a bid for the building to be the main anchor site for the new Potempre Art Gallery and associated network and the Chair has suggested in view of that as a waiting for the outcome of that bid that an information report could be circulated to all members once that's been received. There is a task and finish group looking at this work which will report back once they've got any recommendations to report both to this committee and customers and performance and in the meantime the previous feasibility studies both in respect of primary school and in all through special school have been circulated to members of the committee for background in the meantime. So subject to those Chair, the work programmes attached to the appendix one, thank you. Councillor ROBERT-EAN. I'd just like to briefly touch upon the issue you mentioned there as a growth school. I really do feel that the covenant there is the crucial issue. And you have to overturn the covenant before you can do anything other than have a school there. The terms of a covenant are very strict and they could revert back to other ownership. So I think that we need to look at the covenant before we jump the step of saying we can transform it into an art gallery because it does say it needs to be a school and the only other provision for any other building is a house or residence for the headteacher. So I don't buy into the idea that that site is unsuitable for a school because obviously population figures fluctuate and furthermore I really do feel that the covenant issue is very important and the committee must look at that. Thank you. Councillor ROBERT-EAN, just as a member of the task and finish I can't go to any detail but we have had information and advice on the covenant previously so I can ask what can be included in terms of the information report as an update. Danna? Just for clarity as a member of the task and finish group as well, the covenant does stipulate and it is in the public domain it's education purposes so obviously you know arts, culture and things like that do fall into that, otherwise I don't think it will be in consideration within the grant funding but it's a matter of the task and finish group and as the chair said a report will come back to committee as soon as the task and finish group have concluded their work. Okay. Any other items on the work program, Tracy? Okay. Any other members happy with that, can I ask people to indicate please? Okay. Do you have them by word palb? Thank you very much everyone. Okay. If you move on to agenda item 5, Welsh and Education Strategic Plan for the benefit of committing anybody watching online our job as a committee today is to monitor the delivery of the Welsh and Education Strategic Plan which is also known as the WESP and the plan is about improving planning and development of Welsh medium education locally as well as improving standards and it feeds directly into the Welsh Government's target of having a million Welsh because by 2050. We've got a number of guests with us today, I'm not sure if we're going to have an introduction to the report first and then if officers can bring in some of our guests to give us their views on how we're doing in terms of the WESP. I'm a presenter, Councillor Harper in the absence of Councillor Wayne Suwan who's going to give us, Suwan May on contact officer for the WESP is going to give us just a brief introduction before we move into overview and questions. Dear Suwan. Good afternoon. Thank you very much for the opportunity to come here this afternoon to present the report and I can thank you beforehand for some of our partners on the WESP forum who've made the effort of the time in very busy diaries to be here with us today and very, very grateful to them. My pleasure is to present this report to your attention as members this afternoon. You can see from the report that we are now two years into the operational period of the current WESP. This is the first 10-year Welsh in Education strategic plan. Previously they were covered a three-year period but this time this round is a 10-year cycle and this WESP was prepared during the period between 2020 and 2022 during the lockdown period. So it was developed in partnership with a number of forum members and some of the organisations as represented here this afternoon and it was approved by the Minister for Education was language at the time in July 2022 by Jeremy Miles because obviously it's a 10-year WESP now and it has to be quite high-level strategic plan sitting below that we have got a five-year action plan and that is reviewed on an annual basis for a local action plan which is discussed every term by the forum and we provide an update report and progress report on that to Welsh government every year. You can see in the report what we've prioritised in the short term which is a service to support late comers to us in media medication especially the Trojhi or the immersion education in year seven in the Scumrock and Flawick working the outcomes six of the WESP about additional learning needs and education to the medium Welsh 4 learners with ALN making sure that Welsh medium is offered to every learner whatever their learning needs are and work with regards to promoting Welsh education making sure that parents and prospective parents are aware of the options available to them with regards to Welsh medium education here in Brexit and also what are the advantages of being bilingual and having a Welsh medium education and finally workforce development work and you can see in the body of the report how those areas fit in with the outcomes in the West. If I can introduce some of our partners here with us this afternoon sitting by me next to me is Ellery von Droppins she is the officer responsible for the support to late comers and the immersion Claire is the head in mean of all, Scott Mean of the All, Caris Gwyn, officer with media Meethrin and Ellie Maher who is the national coordinator for HAG, parents for Welsh education and as requested by the chair I am going to ask Ellie and Caris to give us a short over theme of how we work together in collaboration in the forum, how the work of their organisations support the work of the West towards achieving the targets that we have set. Can you hear it? Great, thank you very much. As Siwan mentioned I work for Meethrin, the Welsh nurse supervision and I work across all the counties northeast Wales and I am involved with all the work and that comes in very handy because it gives me an all the very full of the work, how the development of Welsh media medication happens and I must say it is so easy and lovely to work together in Rexxham we have got a very open partnership going back to an all feel of our work, the early years sector has changed massively, we have got many parents returning to work, there is an expectation that there is childcare available and of course we have got to ensure that that care for children moving home to Welsh media medication is available to parents in Rexxham so children who come into our services, we will provide a Calchme three on the site of every school, every Welsh school here in Rexxham so that partnership is very very important because parents then see that journey towards Welsh media medication, every percentage of children within our Calchme three who move on to Welsh media medication is very very high, it is 100% in some of our Calchme and that is the time it is forever. We have been working on the flying start program as well, in those areas we have ensured that every Calchme three is on that framework to ensure that that service is available through the media will Welsh for every parent who is eligible for flying start services, the fact that you want a service for the media will not prevent you from getting the flying start support so we do work very very closely with flying start, we also work with parents in the TFV, parents and other groups and I think our most recent success is that we have had a new kill opening of Sculch and a porth, they have got a kill TFV then and we will be providing child care all day long from next Wednesday onwards on that site so we feel that our work is called to the west because many parents make the first link with Welsh language through us but we do discuss, we make decisions where we need to target, we have got some kill TFV things that are becoming full and then which means that the schools are starting to get full and we are subscribed so it is getting to be a little bit of a headache in some areas so that conversation about how do we develop that one to increase the numbers who can to the levels that we work pre-pandemic so that is where we are up to, I have got to create a deal of statistics in front of me so I do not feel I need to share them but I will send them back to all of you just to show the work that we do and to take them. Thank you very much, before we move on, it is completely working okay online can you hear me soon? I thought somebody was indicating, Beck did you want to come in or is it quiet or is it not there at all? I think the issue is that we can't mute the original speaker so they are both playing alongside each other. That is right, yeah, because I cannot hear it at all. Okay, that is all. It usually lowers the volume of the English and the Welsh should be loud, that is usually how it works on Zoom but it is obviously an issue then, just go with me a second. If we have a recap of your points because obviously people on the Zoom link didn't quite catch them. My own blasters are caked with your whole creoma and rexam and lina. Caked with your whole brain is a good thing. It is a good thing to see. 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I don't know if we've got anybody else who wants to contribute before I bring in members questions. I know people have got a lot of questions on this. Can I ask Claire Rina now to come in because Claire has to leave it in about 10 or 15 minutes so just bring Claire in and then I'll leave. That's okay. Thank you so much. I'm Claire Rina, head of the Scoville Law, and I represent the cluster of three schools. So we've got a very strong partnership with the local authorities, especially the regional group. We have a number of different countries with us. We have to know how to apply for our six years. We have to know how to increase the number of the system. And so I'm going to come here a quick call to the field of additional learning that we have done in our school. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] So where are we on the needs base because I was going to ask in the report around the needs base resource provision. And I don't know whether you've got time to answer all my questions to be honest because I was going to tap into that resource provision and both of red. And where else is there because I'm a firm believer the more resource provision we can put in individual schools instead of taxi and then everything up because the demand is there. We need the capacity and I know that's a bigger question around funding. I'm really sorry, but I don't want to make it late to whatever you need to go. Sorry. You know, it's absolutely fine. I just wanted to clarify that it was in the last six years, not six months. Yeah. So in terms of what we're doing, I did mention that, you know, Larry does come into meetings with the parents to help to help us make them better understand you know that bilingualism is a benefit rather than helping with a hindrance. And in terms of the provision of whatever, you know, I can't really answer anything to do with that. But we, you know, I know that it is, it is being used, you know, there is a need there. But whether we need to look at, you know, greater provision in order to meet the needs of our learners. I would say, yes, because the concern is, is that this, this isn't going to go away. You know, we're having pupils coming in with greater need every year. And, you know, I think something does does need to be done, and especially, you know, through the medium of Welsh, because we're having trouble getting external agencies in to to meet the needs through the Welsh language. But I love that that's open in maximum. That's, that's a very good resource to us at the moment because they do provide things by an employee and through the medium of Welsh. So, so that's been, you know, an added bonus recently, but to answer your question, you know, I do think it's something that we do need to look at. I can't supplement. Can I have a supplement? Yes, bring in the levy first. Yeah, just to add to, as in the work done with regards to ALN, we have also been looking at research surrounding bilingualism, especially surrounding children coming from English, medium backgrounds. And being educated through the medium of Welsh and the implications, the, you know, the additional learning needs implications. And it's all quite positive, but there's a lot of negatives and a lot of misconstrued narratives out there. So the work that I've been doing recently is working with the Welsh government inclusion in nights to see if there's any way that we can tap into research or any resources there. We've been working alongside the Cardiff Maths University, so they've done a lot of research on ALN and bilingualism. I arranged a training evening where one of the researchers spoke about, you know, how to support children with ALN, who are finding it difficult with regards to Welsh language acquisition, and how we can stop them from leaving Welsh media medication, how the school itself and affiliated groups can, you know, help them stay. So that was offered to every single Welsh meeting school, and every member of staff was encouraged to attend that. We've also been working with Professor Enchi Montomas in Bangerine University, and she is also going to be providing some training for the staff, because I think it's very important that we ensure that every staff member within our Welsh meeting schools have the same messages feel supported and feel confident in the messages that they relay to the parents. So that's been some work that we've done recently in ensuring that everyone is giving up the same message. On the same Australian, we have been working also with LMI Nevis in Bexham University, and she has asked if we can go and speak to students on the soft course there, the speech language course there, to help again, you know, advise them on bilingualism. I've also, just popping this up, so that can be the fear, had an email very recently asking if we can work with the Royal College of Speech and Language Service because they are very interested in exploring bilingualism, where the language spoken at school is different to the whole language, so that really fits our remit. And, of course, we will be progressing with that, so it can come in, and then I'll bring you in as well, Dan. Just to give you a reassurance, Councillor Davis, is that when we're developing our provisions and our services, we are very mindful of our responsibility to support Welsh medium entitlement as well, and I'm really pleased to hear actually Claire reference model because that was extremely important that we were able to extend support for our Welsh medium schools through that provision. What we don't have any control over is obviously, let's do a mistake holders, and also obviously, you know, we do have challenges with recruitment, so I'm not minimizing, you know, there are significant challenges for us. But what I would say is I hope to give you a reassurance that collectively, I hope you hear that the commitment is there. [speaking in French] [speaking in French] Because it's really pleasing, as the three of you were saying, that resource provision has been open up to Welsh medium as well. My concern now, and I know I'm probably putting you on the spot here, Claire, but I see you as the representative of our schools in Raxle Welsh medium schools. And we're all aware of the comment situation with budgets, and our plan provision, the north for provision, the north for model is very much reliant on our TAs delivering that wider provision in the school. So, you know, how it's a great provision, but what resilience has a goal, you know, today when we're considering potential budgets and the process that we're going through with the budget because, you know, we need TAs to deliver and ensure that leaders matters now. Thank you. From a head teacher point of view, I believe, you know, that you're a bit sorry, so investing, you know, in your staff and, you know, developing the professional development would actually, you know, benefit the school. I know a lot of a lot of the head teachers have already accessed the provision and the TAs and teaching staff have been there as well. And, you know, what they learn, whether being up skilled and bringing that back into the classroom. So in turn, you know, it is helping them. So, in terms of, you know, capacity and finance and all the other constraints at the minute, I would still encourage, and I think nearly head teachers are still investing in, in the, in the provision because without it. Things could, things could get worse, you know, it's there to be used it is being used, and it's up to the head teachers and the staff then to make the most of it and use it as they wish back in school. Excellent provision, isn't it? And it's how we can support that now in these really, really difficult financial times, isn't it? Because we've seen the change in around complex needs. And we've seen the change that in our English medium schools, and I just want that parity as well within our Welsh medium schools and I'm looking for that assurance within this performance report as well. And I'll bring Larry back in and I'll bring in Brendan. Sorry, just to make a reference to the trauma from schools that I mentioned earlier, I think that's a very important thread to pursue because quite often trauma manifests itself as if it's additional learning needs. And if we deal with the trauma, we can point off and then support those children within the schools, and it also helps deal with issues like behavior and, you know, learning blocks, because if there's trauma involved, then the child will not progress as they can do. So I think investing in trauma and trauma practice, as we have done, we have just had a second cycle of two-day SLT training delivered for the Welsh cluster in March. So we now have a situation where up to four members of staff in each Welsh medium school have been upscaled with trauma and trauma practice. And we've established a forum where we support each other with behavior policies, with resources, so that the schools are now developing the trauma and trauma practice. They're now escaping that to all staff. I'm also going into schools and providing some training so that they can deal with certain elements that may have previously fallen into the ALN category, but are now being being different. So hopefully that's going to alleviate some of the stress. Brendan. Thank you to you all for what you said, I think it's enlightening and very, very helpful. What concerns me as a recent head teacher is what you're saying, you've obviously got the children, the parents very much in here, and it's lovely to see and hear. I can't leave backing up what Donna said. Every teacher wants the children in their care, pupils in their care to get a chance, to get the right chance. Comparing Welsh medium with English schools, English medium schools. Are we getting an equal chance in terms of ALN, in terms of accessing outside support, etc, etc. That is a difficulty as I see it for you, certainly Claire as a head, and I would be dropping it up when I was a head, but is it more so. And if that is the case, how Karen has mentioned some things that they're trying to do, are we saying there is still a long way to go there to perhaps capture? Thank you. If I'm honest, yes. But, you know, there has been a narrative where by, oh sorry, just mention what Karen said before, you know, that we do know that there's historic staffing implications where as much as they try, they cannot recruit while speaking staff members. So that has had a massive impact on the provisions that we've been able to access within school, and going back to the narrative with outside agencies has often been that the interventions that they provide is the home language. So we're very much trying to change that narrative and say, you know, these children need support through the medium of Welsh. But what has been happening historically is, you know, they've been provided the support through the home language, which was 100% of my people's come from English speaking homes. So that provision has been provided in English. But that's where they play to the staff. They might, you know, alter the resources that change them and create a bespoke package in Welsh for those pupils, but it hasn't come from an outside agency. It's things that we've developed within school. So, yeah. Bring a letter in first before you come back Brendan. Sorry, just to come in again. There are resources that are being developed nationally to support children with additional needs to support the teaching too. I know that there's a lot of work at the moment in the dyslexia or leading literacy element of a land which will help us progress forward. We've been developing a lot of resources too to try and support. And one thing that we do have in place is we've opened a Welsh acquisition unit or the Welsh language supporting it at a skum in a door, which is called Knebine. Within this unit, we not only support sleep from us to Welsh medium education, we support children who are finding the Welsh language difficult. So, we have a course that is tailored for children with additional needs, who needs to be re immersed in the language and needs to be provided opportunities in the language that suits their needs. We also have a course that is designed to perhaps more for children who have experienced trauma or who have behavioral issues that has hampered their learning. And then we also provide support for, you know, flervish in a glory. Sorry, I lost the translation. It's just like improving Welsh language. So, you know, those kind of courses also help pay children with additional learning needs locally. What do we have to look at because of financial constrances at the moment schools are finding it difficult to transport to come to having it in a skum in a door. So, we've had to re look at the model as part of the custom meetings and we work in crime of bespoke clean now with each individual school going in and working with whatever they need us for. And so far, the feedback has been very positive as much so. Do you want to come in and I've been Brandon and Robin if it's a specific question for Claire because we've got a lot of members waiting to indicate some questions before and as well. Okay, I was just going to mention flying start, because now we have got the children coming in earlier being identified earlier. I'm sure you can verify this Claire, but support that's given from all those children to yours and those areas are getting larger. Hopefully, there'll be some earlier identification and support button before they actually start with the school or a clean to be a path for them to be able to follow that we know about sooner. So, from the earliest point of view, I'm going to show you. Robin. It's a microphone on Robin. And it's a noble way to create a million well speakers to preserve the ancient language of this country. The only thing is that these are not the first part is not meant to be critical at all. It's just that I do feel that the promotion literature for parents to put their children in Welsh medium education needs to be a bit more honest in its presentation of those difficulties, because bilingual education or Welsh medium education doesn't suit everyone. And I know people who have withdrawn their children from Welsh education because they felt it wasn't benefiting their child. And then I've heard of other people whose children have really taken to it and loved it and they become culturally Welsh. So that's to be encouraged. But I do think we need to be very upfront with parents about the problems that can exist, not just for children with who additional learning needs, but sometimes it doesn't suit every child. As you know, and then secondly, just quickly, because I know we've got a shortage of time. When I grew up in Rexham, it was very much a segregated education system. There was a Welsh section and we said, oh, there's a Welsh. This was 30, 40 years ago. And we never met them. We didn't know who they were. And I'm not being rude or anything, but I'd like to see, I don't think there's been much change in that. And I would like to see more involvement between the two sectors. For instance, I know schools in very reputable schools within the English sector who failed to get Welsh medium teachers, you know, professional Welsh teachers. And I'd like to see more cooperation. So I hope that that can be brought about in the future because I think that's a way of introducing people to the beauty of the Welsh language. Hopefully the new curriculum is making an impact there as well. Can I have a chance to respond? Thank you. I sit on the primary heads federation as well. And there's always an offer for us to work together. And I know recently three of the English schools have worked very closely. They've come to me at all, and they've taken advantage of hilarious bespoke packages. And also, when you mentioned the honesty of the parents, when we have an intake of pupils into the nursery, we always meet with the parents and we have those honest and open conversations. And we say, you know, if this happens, this is what we can do as a result. So we certainly don't brush over the issues that could arise within Welsh medium education. But we are very open to working together and supporting each other moving forward. Just before we go any further, is there anything specifically from Claire? I'm not sure if a lady wanted to contribute anything else before we just brought in members questions generally just to check. Are you waiting to come in the lady or? No, you're happy. We're just going to open it to general questions now because I've got Brendan down first. Yeah, I just want to say thank you because you're having to be more innovative. Most teachers who are very innocent anyway. You're going the extra step to find these extra resources and extra steps to support the children in your care. So well done. And I hope it does work. Thank you. Okay, thank you very much the often valid player. Next, I've got Colin was online. Thanks, chair. No, I know the translation didn't work, but it's good to practice me Welsh and see what words I know and what I don't know. It's slowly getting there. My question was around the table on page 26 and it's number 2.6. So they've given us obviously numbers numbers on roll and then the numbers taught Welsh first language. And I just wanted to ask because obviously the percentage has dropped in 22 and 23 really positive to see that it's back up in 24 and above what it was in 2021. But I just wanted to know if we've done any investigative work around if there was a reason for the drop in their numbers in 2022 23. I did think maybe covered, but I don't know if that's a bit of a delay just once, but I just wanted to know if we'd looked into any reasons why we can't say we haven't done a piece of research. We're just going off what we've seen in the sector as a whole. So it was very impacted by COVID. One of the things that perhaps happened during COVID that particularly affected the wealth sector was obviously children were at home with their parents who were English speaking and that and some of them reported back that they found it difficult to support their children at home during that time. And then that had a knock on impact potentially in terms of the numbers coming through made through and then subsequently into Welsh medium schools. Obviously, a lot of hard workers has happened since then from members of the Western education forum to encourage the parents to make that choice and we're seeing the fruits of that coming through. But, you know, I think most of the local authorities have seen similar patterns where there are bilingual authority like we are. So I don't think we're unusual in that either. Thank you. Okay, thanks Mark. Down the next. Because we're looking at the performance of the strategy, I think it would be useful going forward if we had from the data from 2022 onwards, because I think we're just seeing a snapshot there for 2024. And it's difficult for us to get that assurance that, you know, we're meeting the objectives of the strategy. And, you know, that goes direct to outcome one and two, doesn't it? So I think going forward, it would be really useful if we could have that independence one. I did when I first looked at the report, I thought we were looking at the review period of the West before it goes down to Welsh government, and whether I was looking at this for which beds that we need to improve. I wasn't aware that it was a performance report until I, you know, until I went through the report a second time. So that would be an ask for me, because I'm trying to understand in here, you know, what the progression is, and I understand, and it's been very, you know, it's been pointed out by us because that this is crossing, you know, the back end of COVID as well as now. And then, you know, we've seen the additional leads that have come into all our schools, you know, on the, on the back of COVID. So, and I understand that. And my second question is to do with the traffic. So there's some really good data in here around that, isn't it? Because year one, we had 18, so last year we had 18, year two this year, and 24, the projections for the third year of the program is 30 and we've currently got 27 registered. But then we're talking about funding for the second classroom, because we have 15 because they have that intensive intervention. So my question is around in that funding bit that we're making for that second classroom, what is future growth beyond G3 looking like, because I'm thinking, you know, where's the flexibility there if we potentially lead? More resource, because with Welsh government, it does tend to be a one hit for a period of time, doesn't it? So if you can give me some assurance on, you know, what work we've done within the, you know, within this performance really to capture the capacity gap within to take us through to the 10 year plan. If that makes sense, I'm waffling there, sorry. Okay, so I've got a question really about the presentation of the data. Okay, so I'll start with that. We can present it in different ways so that we're just capturing the year one of the year two intake in line with the West been future. I suppose the information is there in as much as the other year groups in 2022 are there because they're in year two and three. But yeah, we can we can present that annually next time that that's not a problem. Yeah, in terms of trophy. Fair play to a Larry she has brought this up more than once to our attention that, you know, there is this growth in interest in the program. I suppose at the point we made the bid to Welsh government. You know, we were hampered by certain things, which is, firstly, we need to have space to be able to do what we want to do and where we're planning to put this new unit will accommodate. We'll accommodate two classrooms and the outside environment that we're looking for to put in place. If it continues to grow, we're going to have to work with the host school around, you know, further expansion, but that might be something separate on a different part of the site and going forward. But Welsh government have been in this respect, you know, the, well, the aspects around stable communities for learning that they're great partners, but they've been very responsive to us. So, you know, we've we've varied some we've asked to vary some funding to enable us to do this and they've come back very quickly and supported us with that. So, you know, we hope to continue to work in partnership with them. I can't say any more, but was the last bit, just in terms of responding to increasing capacity more generally. Yeah. It's very much, you know, within the tenure plan, isn't it? So, because this, to me, looks short term because we're hitting it with the year three projections. So I'm trying to get an understanding. Is that taken us then to where we think we're going to be in five years, or is it taken us to where we think we're going to be in 10 years? And if we can answer that question, yeah, then that's fine. But we still got to have an awareness of that potential growth, don't we? Because it's, it's all about capacity. It could be them that we're looking at more role numbers into the secondary provision. And then there's the knock on effect of that from an estate point of view as well, isn't it? So I'm just trying to get an understanding of how big the picture could be really down. Okay, so, so I think the general response to that is, is that we have covered that in our, we talked about three bands for the, for the next nine year plan for the state to sustain communities for learning. And part of that wasn't it was to respond to the demands that come through the West when the time was right. I'm not seeking to put a cap on truck. It's very successful. Thanks to the hard work the staff involved, actually. But I suppose the preference would be that we have more parents, you know, choosing Welsh medium education as early as possible. So, so we are pushing that as well. So, yeah, I think it's really difficult to project really forward because of the way that things are going to progress with the continuum and the common European framework of reference for language is going to be implemented as part of the Welsh language bill. So we're going to perhaps see more English medium schools as they are currently categorized, moving along the continuum. And the potential perhaps for those children then to decide that they want to access Welsh medium secondary provisions. The only thing with that is we wouldn't be starting from the start with regards to the language acquisition. So it would be a much quicker process. So, you know, I think there's ways to be creative about how we support children, how we ensure that there's the growths, but being able to project how many people would need full Welsh immersion would be difficult at this point. But yeah, certainly something that we need to consider just out in terms of the data points as well as a couple of questions on that headline tag in the West is for 23 to 27 percent of five or six year old to be attending Welsh medium by 2031. Based on the plastic data for the last few years, we're seeing the percentages start to increase, but we've been below the targets that are actually set out in the West for 2022, 2023. And I think a projected to be below the target for this year as well. So there's a couple of questions arising from that are you concerned about that and the fact that we're not quite meeting those West targets currently. And the other target is to feel surplus places in Welsh medium primary by 2027 that are 440 places at the moment so are we on track to do that and then if we were to achieve that with that reach the West targets 19.5 to 21.5% of five and six year olds receiving education. And then lastly just on the data. The report says the ability of Rex and pupils to speak Welsh has dropped from 20.3% in 2016 to 23.7% in 2020. Do we know why that is and what we're doing to address that. I'm not sure if I'm directing that to where all of you are to rather than sue on. Okay, so starting off with the data as we are, I suppose that the work that's been outlined earlier is all about promoting the benefits of Welsh medium education to parents so that they make that choice as early as possible. And that's actually as we've heard preschool and making those choices when they do choose school so that's the critical piece of work at the moment because as you say we've got to fill those 440 places to get us on track in terms of meeting that target. And so the ways that we're doing that at the moment I think a very innovative we apologize that the website that we link to in this report isn't quite up and running yet it has been up and running I've been told. Some changes, some additional content is being uploaded onto it and we think that by the end of next week that will be back up and running again but that's part of the key part of what we're doing. And the Welsh medium schools as a cluster have been taking that forward and sharing what they do with that with their wider community. If we can fill those places, then we will be on track in terms of where we need to be by 2027. And then in the sustainable communities for learning program as you say we've got plans then to address the growing need that we hope to see transferring through into secondary schools and then we will need some additional planning provision. Just a little backdrop though. The overall numbers in prime reserve said on a number of occasions in these meetings they are dropping. So those percentages that we're trying to achieve are now for fewer pupils than even when we wrote those plans. So, so, so that surplus place that we've got left actually goes a little bit further than we first anticipated. Just to reiterate that we're not yet two years into this plan. And obviously you've heard and you've read in the report about all the activity that has been going on in terms of promotion and the work with partners on the forum in terms of updating the website making sure that the information is more accessible for parents. We've been working on will continue to work very closely with our colleagues in admissions around that work. And then she's going to come in in a minute and talk about the video that was launched in the event in Tia Powell as well by all the Welsh medium schools. And we are starting to see the numbers recovering from that slump that happened during COVID. We've got Shanna Posh that started not yet two years ago that opened its doors for the first time with very low numbers, but now the numbers projected numbers for this coming September's intake a significantly higher. So, there's been a lot of input so far, and I, you know, I'm confident that from this point onwards that we will start to see the impact on some of that work. Just to mention the video that was, it was work done as part of the Welsh medium cluster. So every school was represented in this video and it's an overview of what Welsh medium education is all about. It shows each school and showcases their strengths. It shows exactly where they place within rex and local authority and just talks about the benefits of bilingualism. It was a video that was launched back in January in Tia Powell and is available on our YouTube site has also been made available on the full the school websites to. And the next project now is to do something very similar but with early early years so I'm currently working with. So, he's in early education and later colleagues in fighting starts and was going to be referencing me give me some to show the, you know, the journey preschool. And then the whole pathways would be to conclude that with something that shows the whole journey, you know, a video that shows the whole journey for families and that are interested in learning more about supervision. Because we are made for that majority of parents are not well speaking and don't perhaps understand what Welsh medium education means, how it can benefits their children moving forwards in the future. So we need to be able to provide them with that information. Okay, thanks for that also I'm hearing there's confidence there that we are on track and that we've got the right actions in place going forward. So, thanks for that. I'm going to go to back next online and then Robert Ian. Thanks. Yeah, I've just got a couple of questions and one is in relation to the figures on page 26 and where it says that the 33% of people stay on at Morgan fluids to continue their six form education in Welsh medium. I was just wondering if we could get a comparison against those in English medium education that continued on six form at their own schools. And also I'm assuming that part of the issue there is going to be the transport issues that we've had. So I was just wondering if we had any updates on that. And then on page 27 and 4.1 with particular reference to outcomes one, two and six. I know that you said that everybody that we're kind of discussing things with flying start, but are we plugging in with all health visitors because I saw quite a worry in comments on a social media site where a health visitor had advised a parent not to send the child to a Welsh medium because they had additional learning needs and particularly speech problems and the health visitor had said it will confuse them more sending them to a Welsh medium. So are we making sure that all health visitors have the correct information and are going out and promoting the Welsh language education. So just to respond to the three points or questions that have been raised, I mean the first is any further information that's required on post 16 members we will provide for you. If that's okay. I don't have any update today on school transport, but certainly, you know, we can share that with school transport service. Yeah, it is, and there will be a report. I think it's at the next meeting. There will be shared by colleagues in school transport. In relation to the concern that you raised around early years, we would, we would obviously want to be picking up on individual instances where advice is being shared within that context. I chair. The early years forum, which is very, very well attended and has representation from all early years providers. I'm including media, I'm including half colleagues, and I have discussed this. I'm going to discuss the next meeting, extending representation to a larry so that we ensure that we have the right information coming forward and it's something I will certainly be taking up at the next forum meeting. So, it's extremely important that we ensure that all agencies on services, providing advice and guidance to families is provided advice and guidance in the right way. So, I will progress your concern at the next meeting. Thank you. Can I ask as well, I understand there's some research around this, and I'll let you mention Banger University, there are links that committee members could have afterwards and that would be useful so we can make sure we're up to speed as well. We've got a role in the community to make sure there's a clear message going out there. Yes, of course, I'm more than happy to provide that. So, there's links to research from Candice Matt, Banger University, and also at Penn Edinburgh and Glasgow too. So, you know, there's a worldwide community that's hard research on this. So, yeah, we'll happily share everything with you. I'm a bit disquieted about some of the language I'm hearing, maybe I'm hearing it incorrectly, but I don't think we should be aiming at filling places and getting quote us through. I think it should always be the priority of the child. And I think that it's not being negative if we heard before the issue of the social worker or health visitor saying that they were giving an honest opinion. And I don't think necessarily that's against education, if that's the case, against Welsh education. So, I think we need to put the priority for the child and not just numbers because it's quality, not quantity at the end of the day that we need to be making sure. And then secondly, reading this report, it seems to imply that everything is well with recruitment for Welsh-speaking teachers in Welsh medium schools. I've always wondered what happens in a Welsh medium school, for instance, if you're teaching French and the French teacher is ill and it's been taught through the medium of Welsh. Do you have to revert to English in some of the subjects? And do you ever have to have English supply teachers in if you can't get a Welsh one? Does that ever arise? It's always interested me if that was the ever the case, but it seems to imply here that things are very healthy. And, you know, some people say, well, I understand Welsh, I can carry on a conversation in Welsh, but I couldn't teach in a school to give it justice. I wouldn't know terms like common denominator and new and different things. So, how are you coping with that? If you're going to expand the section, is it as healthy as it's reported in the report? Or do you have problems with recruitment, like there are in the English schools, getting even language specialists, not just for Welsh? So, just those two issues, really. I'm interested in thanking the audience. Thanks for that. And I think, you know, it is important that we work with facts, which is why I asked for the research papers to be shared with us because they actually don't support a view that there's an issue there for ALM peoples in Welsh medium. So, we need to be making sure that that perception is clarified and wrong information isn't being given to parents, but I'm sure a lady would expand. Yeah, thanks, Kerry. Just expand on what you've just said. You know, the fact that health visitors are given this advice doesn't actually mean that it's current advice, that it's research-based advice. Sometimes they're drawing upon their own experiences, but what we need to ensure is that they're receiving all the latest research. That's what they're saying is, you know, what's been said and promoted is the same across the board. And, you know, I know from experience now, the education psychologists at the moment are turning to words when it comes to bilingualism because they don't feel that they well equipped with certain elements of discussing language acquisition and bilingual education. And therefore, you know, we do need to be able to provide them with research, so I would disagree with you on those things really. I do appreciate research and academic research, but sometimes it's practical. And I know, for instance, well-speaking parents who don't send their children to Welsh secondary school because they don't feel that's good for them. So you've got to admit that there is a wide variety of opinion. And I don't want us to become where we're all sticking to the party line on this. We've got to allow for free expression of parents. And I think that that is important. I mean, I meet people who speak Welsh fluently and their first language well-speakers. And they haven't opted for Welsh language, particularly at sick thought. So I do think it's not being biased or going against research. There's research and there is other research. So I think we need to be very careful in this area because I'm for the Welsh language growth of the schools, but I do feel it must be at the expense of the child. Thank you. Karen, just to say that we work very hard to ensure that we support the entitlement and the preference of those children and young people and families that we work with. We have to work very hard to ensure is that people are in receipt of the right advice, the right guidance based on the most up-to-date evidence and research and information that we have so that the right and best informed decisions can be made in the best interest of the children and young people that we're serving. And I think what would concern us was where information is being shared with parents, not on that basis, and that's something that we would want to be taking forward. So I think that's the commitment that we're very, very mindful of ensuring that we support the entitlements of everyone in the system. Thank you. Yeah, the recruitment in the Welsh region sector is a challenge and it's a challenge cross Wales, but particularly the more east you go. So where as east as you can get in the north. So that is a difficulty. There has been a lot of joint working with various partners to try to address that. You know, give you an example. I suppose the fields for leadership positions in Welsh medium schools can be much, much smaller than they are in English medium schools because obviously we can draw from people in English authorities where we are. There's some of those jobs. There is a national posture to train more people to convert to be able to teach in Welsh medium schools. So potentially people like myself who've got a level of Welsh from the home that hadn't been educated in Welsh since the age of seven. Okay, if I was a young teacher today, then there is a pathway for me to be able to upskill my Welsh to enable me to transfer into Welsh medium primary or secondary in my subject areas. A particular concern, I think of our English medium secondary head teachers is the recruitment of Welsh staff for, you know, for the Welsh department. And that's exceedingly difficult at the moment and we can't. You have to remember that actually English medium schools can contribute to the million learners by 2050 as well. We've got to give them the best staff to possibly cancel. We do need some more investment in that area. I suppose in terms of how a secondary Welsh medium school would cope with members of staff being off and then the availability of supply staff in certain areas is a question that we might have to get back to you on. We haven't heard for some time that that you know, what you would have had that particular issue over an extended period of time. I think they use their own internal cover supervisors. But we can find out more about that and perhaps in the next report, explore it in a little bit more detail. Yeah, it leads into my question really, and I'll come to that in a minute, but Welsh about calls. But picking up the question now about, you know, whose choice it is, I think we have to recognize that each three, it's the parent's choice, isn't it? And very much, that's why I'm so supportive of the talkie program, because I think the majority of pupils I've seen in that program, it's their choice to continue that education through the medium of Welsh. And a lot of friends I know that's been through that program have chosen the teaching profession and literally carried on into higher education and got their teaching degrees through the medium of Welsh. And they've come back and taught in that school. So, yeah, it's very much, it's that information, isn't it? Making sure it's informed information so parents and pupils can make that informed decision. And I'm trying to make it a bit of an abyss to throw on a, well, a thought to me, a throw on. And it says on the top, sorry, because if you go on to something else, can I just bring Jerry in first? And I will bring you back in. Okay, thanks. Thanks, Chair. First of all, I'd like to request the indulgence of the Welsh speakers because my question will be in English. I'm a Welsh learner, but really, really, as they say, and expect it at the start of my journey. So, Penemda, that's about it. I'm interested in your understanding really of the barriers that are actually getting in the way of parents who are still launching their children on a learning program, if you like, through the Welsh media. Now, because clearly, you know, these are stretching targets. Now, whilst I guess there's been some indication that information is an issue, perhaps understanding the full benefits, but I'd just like to know how well we understand the full range of the barriers that are out there. You know, what work has been done, what research has been done, because unless we understand the full range of the barriers, then we can never get a complete, completely effective strategy, if you see what I mean, because we need to be able to strategize to overcome all of those barriers. So, I'd just be interested in your opinion, really, and that may be an officer point of view, all the points of view as well, teacher point of view too. Thank you. Yes, because we come across parents, you know, when the child is very, very young, and it's interesting, I'm very glad that you're a Welsh learner, Diana, if you're bad, Diana. We've got an awful lot of our staff that work for us, that they've been through the system themselves, but they don't necessarily have come from a Welsh-speaking family. They come to the system, they speak English themselves at home, they've sent their children to a Welsh-speaking schools. So, the most of the front of the face-to-face staff that we have are able to communicate with parents, because they've been through with themselves. They understand what the questions they asked themselves when they came in, you know, decided for their own children. Why did, why did I send my child to a Welsh-medium education? What was that? And this never-one simple answer. If it was a simple answer, we'd be able to take all those boxes and it'd be easy. The locality of the Welsh-medium school, that is a major issue. It's even, you know, what the neighbour will think if they're going to a Welsh-medium school, what's their own educational background? And it's, what we're finding now with Flying Start is that, you know, most deprived areas, they thought that they were going to a Welsh-medium school, or were going to a better education than we'd got in an English-medium school, because they were outside the tougher areas. I don't think that's true anymore, because those children, you know, Flying Start is going to be across the board. And so, it is that informed choice, but there isn't one simple answer, and that's a problem, you know. But we do find that talking to other parents that have been through it, that helps. We just had a video out, so we've had three months explaining why they chose Welsh-medium education. One had the, she was Welsh-speaking, but an English-speaking partner, and they went through all the questions that they asked themselves as a family. There was another parent where both her and her husband or partner were English-medium. They just decided to take the plunge with one child, and by child number three, she's with an individual saying this is the best thing we've ever done. And then parent number three is Polish, but she was convinced that for them as a family, they needed those three languages, because you do get the two languages when you go into Welsh-medium. So it isn't one choice, and it's not informed choice, and it's that giving those parents a chance to talk about it. And that's what makes a difference, but locality, and how easy it's got there, and is that interdiction into early years easy for the parents? Is it that one stop shop? Is it that they go through the door once, and they're there? It's a birth fall, and I think it's coming back to Council Williams there. It has to be good quality. It has to be, it's not all about bumps and seats, it's good quality as well, and that's really important. Karen? I think on the basis of experience, I think one of the considerations is that we encourage, but all of our schools encourage parents to be very involved in their child's education. And I think for parents who are non-marsh speakers, that that can be a bit of a barrier, there can be a concern regarding how can I ensure that I can support my child with their homework, or how can I be assured that I'm receiving the right communication and so on. And I think to be fair, our schools work incredibly hard to ensure that they are inclusive environments, not just for the children, but for the parents and families, and communication here is absolutely key. And the video, the YouTube video, that I'm sure you'll probably want to watch, that Ellary referred to, does actually address very, very nicely and alleviate some of those concerns. So, you know, I think it's about ensuring in our communication with parents, we furnish them with the right information, the reassuring it to enable them to make the informed decision, which is right for them. Yeah, thank you, Jerry. Yeah, thank you, which all makes absolute sense to me. But particularly, I guess, pre-admission information, with busting, because of course, once you've launched a child, I keep using the word launch, because it feels like some time, I've been doing it myself, you know, with two children, myself, once you've launched them in a particular direction, it's very difficult to change, you know, and you're not a drop-y program, sounds like a really useful way to actually help that. But certainly, pre-admission, I guess, is where that information is going to be most valuable, you see what I mean? And I guess the supplementary question is, how does that work, you know, how are parents engaged, particularly with, you mentioned before, English-speaking parents, who have an interest? How are they engaged pre-admission, how effectively are they engaged? We hold groups, basically, out in the community, I would, at least 95% of those would be English-medium families. The percentage is high. And that, we hold activities, you know, it's like, in parenting, toddler groups, and whatever, we hold activities, but that's their chance to speak to us questions, you know, because we are there to let them know what the choices are going to be. And what the choices are for them. And we've got our camaraderie blanc groups, Welsh for Kids, which was initially a Welsh Government's initiative, admitted mainstream now, run that initiative. And they hold yoga for babies, massage groups for babies, and it's usually six and eight weeks programs. And it's by choice, their choice then. After those, you know, where do I go next? We give them the information, what those stepping stones are, to go forward or not, because you can't hold them to ransom. You can't do that, but we can do our best to give them the right information so that they can come to that informed decision. What we do realize is that the more that we came regarding the Welsh language earlier, the more that the children take up on the Welsh and acquisition of the Welsh language. The earlier that's done, you've got, the child then has got confidence learning a language when you're five, if you haven't been to anything preschool. It's pretty difficult, even though they do say it's seven, but you know, they don't realize they learn where they am. And if you get quality acquisition of language at that point, there is that, you know, the steps then taken to the public. The parent becomes a part of that child's new community because it is a new community for some of them. And then hopefully that passes on successfully to the school for them to become a part of that community on what they're learning and the ones in school. Prepare, you know, prepare for them as well. Happy answered the question. David, were you waiting to come in? I think we have to understand that it's a holistic responsibility. I don't think one partner or one agency has more influence than any others. We have to, now, I'm going back a few years, but I didn't know whether you remember the Welsh language board had a wonderful project called Kid Soaked Up. Years ago, it was an excellent way of getting to, we had lots of money then. Unfortunately, those parts have run dry, but it's an example of how we were starting pre-birth. We were starting, and I think there is still an example. I think Comraigee Blant are still providing the red box that Mum's have and parents have when their child go to their checks. And Comraigee Blant is part of that right, but there's information in that. So we need to look at it in a more holistic way, I think. But in response as well, a lot of things influence choice, I think. In our experience, and I think Caris mentioned the word easy. We have to make it easy, we have to make it as easy as what any other form of education is. And at the moment, we're not in the same place, we're not starting at the same beginning, we're not on the same starter block. And so we are behind, and we're thinking of the Olympics now, we've got 200 metres behind everybody else at the moment. And what I think we need to be thinking about is how do we narrow that gap? How do we ensure that Welsh medium education is easy for parents? Proximity, Caris was mentioned, is a huge factor. If parents don't know about that provision within their area, then they will never know very often. I'm surprised sometimes. And Glesney has had experience of parents in Rexxham that have told, I didn't realise Welsh medium education was an option for me. So the information that needs to be out there, obviously there is a need of getting to those dark, darker areas and those places where information isn't there. How do we do that? Well, you know, we're working on social media, we're working, we're trying to find every possible way of influencing. We're in groups, in local groups on Facebook as well, and we're sharing, sharing in that way. So we're hoping we can get to those people. Transition is a huge factor. I can't stress that enough. We have a leaflet track has a leaflet called Thy Thar Thi Scumran, the journey of Welsh medium education. It shows what should be in place at every point in order for that child to be able to partake in the bilingual economy as we have in Wales. Perception is another aspect. Community perception, I think Harris mentioned that as well, and very much word of mouth is something that we also depend on. But there is a psychological aspect that is a very, very difficult thing to overcome. Claire said 100% of her children go to Welsh medium education without speaking Welsh at home. So what we need to do for those children is to make the Welsh language a living language. They need to see and hear the language beyond the school gates. And so I know Mentor Yife are doing their best in providing those. And I know that's a little bit down the road and going to a pub to a gig. But yes, that's what is coming. There are community, which is outcome five, I suppose, which is the provision. But that's what we want really, isn't it? It's making it a living language and giving them a language that they can use. So back to my initial point, which is it has to be everybody's responsibility. How we go about it is everybody's business, basically. Teal, I will bring you in. We'll just have one come back, please. Yeah, you can. I was just going to remind members, we've got about five or ten minutes left. So if you can start thinking in terms of recommendations, be it a combat journey and then I've got friends and I've got Donna. Very, very brief. Can I just commend you for the word holistic? Because that applies at council level two. I refer back to Rebecca's point about transport, and particularly when you're getting into competitive situation. It makes life very difficult as a couple of my residents have found out to actually access that. And that holistic view, if you like, you know, the lesson for us as a council is to take the holistic view forward. It isn't just about education. It's about a number of other added parts that actually can contribute to this. But Jonathan Brown. Brendan. Hi. John, Eric. I was delighted to hear Shuan mention before that the numbers in Toronto Pulse for the forthcoming year are far more encouraging. And all the statements you've all made now, her stick approach trying to bring children into this Welsh language environment. Fantastic. I'll credit to you. If however, we just look at the report on the end of the report, the plus figures in schools, which were listed at the end of the report. And David, you partly mentioned it as you went through earlier on. But if we look at all those schools on that sheet. And I accept that over the last couple of years, we've had certain difficulties in terms of COVID and whatever. But each one of those schools, none of them are at capacity. None of them hitting their people admission number. So if you then transfer that over the six or seven years that are listed there. Those pupils who are then transferring into high school Morgan fluid in this case. Morgan fluid is already well under capacity. And the numbers coming in are also under capacity from the feeders or whatever. Obviously there are. Regions for that. But. And I was that's why I was delighted to hear Sean say that the uptake for. Clamp off is so positive. Is that likely to be the case for all those schools? Because I've got a note here to say as I say that each one of them. People admission number, well below where it should be. And the capacity on each of them apart from. I think it's plus core. Is well below. Plus coke is. Well, give or take 10 20 pupils. I think below. So. It's just wanting sort of. Sure one's answer for plan a poll was the answer for the others. Great. That's the question. Do what was managed to ask. A difficult question that I find difficult to answer. I'll give you. I'll come at it slightly different way and. Just remind you that we've spoken before about the overall. Demography situation in Rexham and I think I presented figures here before that show that. Off the top of my head. And I'm going to be tens out as opposed to hundreds out. We were looking at a year six cohort of around 1650. This year and a nursery cohort of 1250. That's the general picture in primary schools. A moment here. We're looking at a year six cohort of two hundred and eighteen. And the nursery cohort of hundred and ninety. Hundred and so two hundred and three. Including nursery sorry no it's not it's it's a hundred and ninety one. Nursery to so so the the the drop off in demography. Overall. As the whole of primary is much bigger than it is. What we're going to be seeing coming through Welsh primary schools. Welsh primary schools did experience a bigger dip. I think post-COVID. And I'd analyze the figures a little bit more closely to give you the exact on that. That's that's what we were looking at a few years ago. So I think. As I said earlier. We're going to be. Reaching the targets we hope. That we've sat in the in the West. That's what we're going to be aiming for. But to to reach those targets. The numbers of pupils we're looking at are fewer. And that does mean that those numbers coming through to secondary are going to be fewer than we initially anticipated as well. Can you just come back on a chat please. With that in mind David then. We mentioned earlier possibilities in the future of looking at. Wouldn't it be great. Of another Welsh high school. Do those figures make that thought less likely or at the least problematic. Won't have heard me say the possibility of a second Welsh high school. I've talked about an additional Welsh primary school. I think at the moment. If you project the numbers coming through even if we're successful with the West. In terms of those targets. Then to split that cohort would give us two very very small secondary schools. There's probably something that would go into a second and year plan. If I'm honest. And so is a secondary. Donna. I'm not being worried. Okay. And I'll lose my questions around. With regards to what she's been discussed now. I'd like to see us. Having sight of the review of the West. Before it goes up because I think what we're discussing now. That's part of the changes that we need to update in the West business because. The percentage increase are based line is going to move his net so whether this flexibility already in the West. Where our baseline isn't. Prescriptive because we're saying we want X amount of percentage of increasing or growth in his net. So I think it will be useful for the committee to consider that as part of the recommendations. If another performance report is coming back. And we've got an annual review of the West coming in 12 months time. I think we need to manage the. You know, the time and of that goes wrong with leading to the other would not. And so question over when we're getting into that. I think we're going to get into that. The top of page 34. It talks about the 2023 2023 training of teaching and teaching assistance. 326. Do we know what the split up that is between teachers and teaching assistants. Have we got an idea. It talks about the whilst verticals doesn't it. And you know my school was signed up to two of these last year and I'm just wondering. I know we haven't got a crystal ball, but are we certain that the. We are funding the supply cost, the new per high, are they, are they continuing because we really want our teachers and TAs to continue with all. But obviously, from a school position, it is going to rely on supporting support costs, isn't it. So just some information around that because there's a number of you know, governors in the room as well. I have a question. Glen, I'm going to make screen. That's what I asked. Can I ask a question about me. I'm going to make screen. That's what I asked a question about. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. I'm going to make screen. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. 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Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Can I ask a question about me. Okay. Like I say, I think we're at the point of thinking about recommendations then. This has been a long discussion. I think people are very interested. So I think committee will want to have this report back. But maybe we can look at the timing of that in terms of making sure it's before. The response to Welsh government. So if committee happy in terms of recommendation. It would be that we have an annual report. That would come before the submission to Welsh government. That includes the yearly targets set out in the West banal progress against those. And also that the progress report to Welsh government is included. And the next one is circulated to committee. Are people happy with that? Does that summarize? Dana. Can I add that on to that as well? Sorry chair. I think there's an opportunity here to share the. Add this can I correct someone I've had with governing bodies. Because they can get that out within their schools as well and in their newsletters. And if it can be shared with. If you can add to that and council is what some counselors to your mailing list. I think we can support with getting the message out in the communities because it's all about parents know what choices they have. And children then you know pupils leave in primary in that transition to secondary knowing what their choices are as well as net. So yeah, I think there's some work that we can do to support us. As elected members and as governing body members as well. Yeah, if you could let us know when the website is back up and running as well. We don't want to circulate anything before that sort of property indicating just a quick quick one because of the time factor. But I want to have a look at the video because I just want my prime concern is that parents when they're being given this choice are being fed a balanced approach and not just a propaganda approach of the benefits. As I say, some it's some children. It doesn't work with and that's an effect of research, not just in the Welsh experience, but in other countries. So I really would like to look at that before I make any recommendations. Thank you. Well, I would take issue with the word propaganda there. I think it's important as we've discussed in the meeting that people have the latest up to date information research. So if those links are shared with me as chair, I'll make sure that they go out to everybody on the committee. And I'll commit to making sure the link to the video goes out to committee members after the meeting would be useful for members to be able to see them. Can I ask members to indicate if they're happy with the recommendations. Okay, thank you very much. It's been a really interesting discussion and I'll bring the meeting to a close.