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Lifelong Learning Scrutiny Committee - Thursday, 9th May, 2024 4.00 pm
May 9, 2024 View on council website Watch video of meetingTranscript
because they were just the only child that was going from that particular place to another particular place and that, that there's nothing more we can do about it. But at least we knew that we could add children to that route if others were going to that particular provision and were on the route. So we do that and we do that more regularly now to make sure that we're looking at a particular type of transport or particular type of high cost transport and then looking at right, does that then match what we're actually requesting and why are there others on there and you know what are the reasons for that and are there anything we can do about it. We just helped. Thank you for that because you correct to make the distinction between complex needs and behavioral needs and various other things and I think you know the what will put my eyes in this report as well was you know about the hazardous routes and that being historical and that was something you know through the work of the committee that's something that's been highlighted then and taken forward for a review isn't it. I think the report's looking at two years for that review to take place. Yeah, thank you. Okay, I will bring you in Robert and I just want to make sure we've picked up all of those questions over just a couple there on the dynamic purchasing system I think I've just on the appeals panel so I don't know who wants to pick those up. And then on the regional work it's very early days but as I think we've mentioned between it's all you know the local authorities are facing similar challenges so it's very early days in terms of talking to those other local authorities and it's a little bit of a what are the options, what could we potentially, where would they potentially be savings if at all. Then on the DPS so that's only being used by the school transport team in the last year so you know 75% is actually quite high considering that we still have contracts that are still you know not have not been brought in on the dynamic purchasing system. And so that that's that will hopefully improve and improve as we go on. And then on the hazardous routes appeals yes so the policy that we have in place or the process that we have in place sorry for hazardous routes in Rex and Canterbury Council is historical. There was a guidance that came alongside or to follow on from the learner travel measure in 2014 and we've never adopted that process so we need to you know it needs a whole scale start from scratch look at all those routes again and that's why it's going to take two years obviously to consider the ones that we think where there's most opportunity to make savings in the first instance and and work our way up because obviously some of them there might only be one child that is being transported because that hazardous routes for example. Can I just drill down on that because she was saying there's part of the wheels travel measure around hazardous routes that we've never adopted and we're 10 years behind. So can you explain whether that has an impact on the budget. You know come what gender someone I'm asking you know where's obviously if we haven't adopted something the question is why but then what's the impact isn't there of not adopting that so she can explain that to me please. Yeah I'm afraid I can't tell you why we've not gone over to that programming post that the newer process and obviously we'll await the newer guidance to see how much of a difference it is from the current to sort of what we'll we'll follow going forward and then in terms of the savings or potential savings and yeah sorry this is in the report others is outlined sort of very high high level costing yeah so we were looking at sort of 10 services whereby approximately we can save around about 282,000 per annum but that's you that's a little bit finger in the air and yeah but obviously there would still be also to bring those routes up to a good standard we'd we'd need to spend to save yeah so they need to be that would be a very long term process Rachel yeah just to add to what Gwen said really I think the difference in what is contained in the statutory guidance and our existing process is that the guidance and again we'll await a further update is much more prescriptive than it used to be on what constitutes a hazardous route so it actually gives you kind of traffic count gaps in traffic whether there's a pedestrian island to help with crossing how wide the footpath is what we used to do and and the process that's outlined at the back of your report pack is that panel of elected members would go and walk that route and make that decision and actually with that prescriptive evidence based process there is almost aside from there may be a more subjective view of the kind of social element of what is safe but in terms of the traffic and highway safety there isn't really room for an opinion on that now because that will be evidence based and so it's much better much more robust much clearer what we whilst we haven't updated the the policy as Gwen said what we have done and some of the work that Gwen's doing is to go through our hazardous routes and there are some there's big groups that Gwen's identified in the report that we know remain hazardous even with the new guidance because we can see exactly why they are hazardous and and they're not an easy fix there are a couple that I think when we get clarity absolute clarity on 20 miles an hour it might be that the traffic flow the gaps in traffic allow us but they might be the types of journeys where we've got one child travelling that location so they're not big financial benefit but they bring us in line with where we need to be thank you for that and I think that the impact as well is on well being as not because as part of the speak of future generations future generations that we should be taken into consideration so it overlaps into a law and I've always thought you know since last week meeting we've had the not a quick Gwen but the work we need to focus on those hazardous routes and get them up to standard and I'd be interested in certain reports coming to committee as well around that spend to save because I think that's a priority area isn't it yeah it's a point with me consistently and just on that as well I think what's another thing that we might not be able to you know say how much we'd save but obviously if you were saying well we don't need a taxi or a bus for that journey now that's another taxi and driver or bus and driver that can go back into that market that hopefully then helps to bring the mix there's a bigger mix or a bigger feel to put those bids in on the other contracts. Robert Ian, thank you very much. I'd just like to say to begin with that's a statement before I make a question that the hazardous route to me for instance is the A525 which I think is one of the most dangerous roads in the county borough. So I really do feel that that's used by buses and the issue that I want to raise because you've quite rightly and they've defended the principle that children with special needs need very careful nurturing with their transport is the mainstream in coaches and just as with the issue that I've raised on numerous occasions in this committee about the fact that 3 million pounds of our budget is being given to privatized supply agencies who are totally unregulated how much of this dynamic that we have here in for what is it a 4.14 how much is that concentrating on the big bus companies who transport our children as well do these companies have a monopoly is there a like five year contract with the buses or is it renewable at different times I'm interested in there and not just because of savings or anything but I'd like to find out the facts on that thank you because I see the buses coming into the village every day and it's the same company's thank you. Yes I'm not sure of that of our contracts how much have we beat each operator but we could find out information that's that would be very easy to find and then sorry what was the other section of the question pop your mic on Robert Ian please I just use an analogy with the supply teaching budget amounting to over 3 million and that was last year in the in the borough and I was asking a lead into the question of the finance of the mainstream bus services because we've had a very eloquent defense of the the individual transport needs but I also made a point which is more of a point than a question about hazardous routes because I would say that the route that I travel to work on every day the a 525 is a very dangerous road and I've seen the deaths of several people in in since I would been elected so I would you know look look at that on a general perspective but the other issue of the finance of the companies who are operating the buses for what would be called main the mainstream pupils the majority of pupils in public school transfer in public transport I'd be very interested in the finances of that and how that dynamic in 4.14 chooses these companies who seem to have like a monopoly of the buses okay yeah thanks for the question Robert the sum routes will always be hazardous especially if you represent rural wards we will never be able to put a pavement from and the likelihood is that lots of those routes are over two miles or three miles anyway because the nature of being a rural ward so they're not that they'll never be addressed ideally we want every child to walk to school because we've got obesity is an issue haven't we in Wales and every in the western world so if we can encourage more children yeah yeah so so so the particular hazardous routes the the obvious one is koi poi to koi dog and it's new brought into Brynallen that those are the routes that are significant numbers but again because of the hazardous nature they there may be a engineering solution but that ain't going to be cheap and that's basically the two the quarter of a million pounds that gwen refer to those are the two major routes but there are also individual routes even through through the city centre so um sorry Robert Ian just have one one person speak it no it's just you need to pop your mic and they won't be able to hear you on online okay i i'm sorry i don't want to interrupt and i respect the chair that the fact is is that do you have any on the spot confirmation of how much those buses are costing us like i mentioned the three million budget which i got from freedom of information request could you tell me how much the buses the main stream buses are costing the authority within that budget okay moving around that circulated gwen will find that the information food but ultimately bus services are in the private sector so it'll always be i give you as many operators in the market competing against one another to drive down cost but again after covid it wasn't ideal market private market and therefore you know there was fewer and fewer operators in in the market and therefore that tends to drive up cost but that's information i'm pretty sure gwen can pull off the system and give to you as regards how much should we do spend with bus operators and and the thing is if we can spend more with bus operators than other options then that gives more chance that we'll have more bus services route running within raxham which will also benefit obviously everybody within the county if there are more buses operating because again ideally you'd want children to be using the the bus routes that exist so that there's more money going intimate those routes more sustainable hopefully that more routes more buses are put on those routes that would be the ideal outcome quickly come back it's just that i would think that logically that we need to see the cost effectiveness of the of the monopoly that some of the bus companies seem to have and it would be very interesting to have those statistics and finances placed before us thank you okay thanks for being gwen yeah just in terms of commercial sensitivity we wouldn't be able to give you um information of you know cost per operator but we could give you an overall view of sort of mainstream bus costs and and i think we do have a number of different operators it might be that in one area there there seems to be the same operator but you know we're raxham wide we we do have not tons but we have um a mix of operators and what may be one of the issues is that they all have a limited number of vehicles so that then effects sort of how you know where they can actually if they've already bid on x number of journeys they can't bid on another x number because they literally don't have the the buses and the drivers so how can you say the last i i think that's just general council policy Robert Ian it wouldn't be um anything that the officers could deviate from um i'm aware that we've lost Derek so i'm hoping it's because his question's been answered because he was waiting patiently and didn't manage to bring him in um diana you're indicating again but i'll just bring in i'll just bring in raps first because he's indicating he has no chance to speak thank you chair just just i'm on something to his school transfer obviously um the escorts are vital you know to just school transport what's the current situation on the recruitment and retention at the moment because obviously they're a vital part of it and uh how's that looking thank you oh yes so we um we've got a vacancy live on the council website and that's still up because we what we're finding is that even though we are managing to recruit um new escorts people are retiring you know moving on to other roles maybe because of either wanting more hours or the jobs you know it's uh it's quite a specific job role in terms of sort of split shift if you like um yeah so we're going to keep that vacancy live until we find that maybe we were at least at the moment we're also just keeping our heads above water but we'd like to obviously be in a situation where we have enough relief escorts so that when people are ill um that we don't have to cancel transport that we can we we have enough for that relief base Karen I think this is a really challenging area and I think it's one where we've got to be really really vigilant and consistent with because obviously if we don't have an available escorts it means a child actually cannot access their education entitlement go to school um so I think to be fair there's been an awful lot of work that's been undertaken um by um you know colleagues in transport and HR to address this but I think it will be um a remaining concern on an area that we will have to continue to exercise kind of vigilance yeah yeah yeah thanks Chair one of the consequences that we we haven't uh measure uh be able to ascertain yet is that because of the budget pressures that we're facing this current financial year and therefore the five million pound efficiency savings that we've asked schools to make this financial year is that unfortunately stuff will be facing redundancy we can't quantify that yet because the schools are are feeding into the local authority the consequences of how they're having to manage their budget but there is a implication for staffing and some of them are going to be TAs and by consequence some of them may actually be escorts so it is a watching brief at the moment but that is potentially one of the consequences which therefore makes our role that job of retaining as many escorts as possible uh more challenging going forward but you know that's just the honesty of the situation at the moment just um just before I um well Rob Ian's indicated again with bringing back in and then Donna but um just to steer really from offices because I think there was a suggestion from you fell of an information report I think from the discussion people would probably want a little bit more than an information report I think we'd want updates on um budgets on where we are with hazardous routes and we know there's time and issues with that in terms of the review of 20 miles an hour um there's an indication as well that there'll be a review of the policy more generally um an exec have already agreed to that and I think we would give them previous discussions want input on um a review to to that before it went to executive and we've got some standard items on our work program in terms of um the flinch policy I'd like to see something coming back to us with a focus on um concessionary seats in terms of post-16 so there's a lot in there I mean I'm looking for a steer really on weather weather officers maybe think it's possible to tie that all in to one report I know we're waiting on Welsh Government um guidance as well and just before we get to recommendations um just any input maybe on the timing of when we'd want to look at things again if anybody's got any thoughts um it's all in the timing isn't it um like if we can keep it fluid then we'll definitely bring a report back to committee it's just we'd want that report to be meaningful and it'll be dependent on that review um I will ensure that the discussion is taken to the senior leadership team about school transport especially with this announcement of the Welsh Government about the um learner travel and measure um so I can't make any promises at this moment about the review of our own school policy but that is a discussion I'm quite happy to take back to uh executive board members and obviously the directors and take it from there so obviously we were talking about bringing in the information report just as a holding statement in october just to let you know what we've done since this meeting but obviously it's the impact of that that obviously I'm most well I'm sure shared we're most interested in so I don't know if officers can think obviously we'd need X number of months after october wouldn't we to to see the implications um so I don't know how soon you'd want it back really just it's whether we can tie everything together rather than having separate reports um come in and maybe you can't answer that today and it's something that we'll have to discuss in call over I think that would be the ideal but I think you know an information report would just be circulated to it wouldn't it wouldn't come really for discussion so while I'm picking up as we would want more discussion um I'll just I know people are waiting I'll bring in Dan and Robert Ian and then if you've got any thoughts on the timing come back in yeah first just an observation before I pick up exactly what the chair was um trying to nail down um we're going to be careful when we're talking about the bus industry market haven't we because we're limited with no deregulation um at the moment and obviously that's a UK devolved discussion isn't it um so from from that point um just on the points that um you you will bring in now Carrie um I think it ties into the work of this committee um around the change and efficiency program board and that's what we need to be locking up because all this will come through because if we have a look at 4.15 those really are our recommendations going going forward the third one is for the school transport budget pressures to be considered by the newly formed change and efficiency program board I would say we would like with regards to the timing we would like once it's being considered by the board but it comes here before it goes to exec board um and then we can add to that work then can't we um or we can challenge you know where where we need to be challenging and then in in addition to them four bullet points on 4.15 um definitely we want to know about the spend to save and the work in that area because you might need a recommendation from this committee for the spend bet um to be able to save um obviously the hazardous roots yeah we've got an idea that it could be two years worth of work but we want to be pushing that along as part of the scrutiny committee and adding to that work um we talked about the school transport and the change and efficiency program board the collaboration with the neighboring local authorities is crucial as well as now why reinvent the wheel I would ask as well in addition to that I would ask for another three um we need as the committee in the next report to understand um the cash limited budget um to meet the demand and we know then that may change on the year to year but we know September obviously mid-year is the turning point for us it's never the new cohort um I would say as well um we need to show runs that we're fully compliant with the wheels measure because there's that element that's 10 years old that's been messed um and also as well around the recruitment and retention of school escorts because that's one to watch if we are not potentially incentivizing that then the alternative is high cost delivery isn't it um so I get what Phil was saying about you know we need to potentially everybody on the buses but that's not possible with complex needs as there and we need to make sure that we're maximizing those who can access school transport um but we need to be managing how we deliver you know what the models are and how we deliver those individual models efficiently and effectively isn't it so I would ask for those three to be included in the 4.5 that's already listed so seven recommendations thank you chair as well it's the French you are late yeah but that what I was going to say we can tie that in with the collaboration and neighboring authorities can we so if we can include you know the French delivery model from the previous discussion into that recommendation for yeah I think we're looking to nail down the detail but we're on the same same page there'll be a lot of recommendations but we'll be repeating a lot of of what we've said previously as well just bring Robert Ian in first and then I'll bring you back in Mitchell. What has really worked to me in this discussion here today we hear this constant refrain of the the restraints of Welsh government and budgets and yet we only heard on the news yesterday that they're going to spend 18 million in creating 36 new jobs for politicians and they're entourage I really do think that at the end of the day we should come strongly to Welsh government and say their budget priorities should be to look at what the people of Wales need and we've seen here how Karen on a shoestring is defending the the rights of the of those children with special needs and it really irks me that we seem to have a Welsh government and I'd love this to be put on record who have grandiose ideas and yet do not seem to be in touch with the reality and that here we've got Philip win juggling the book and want to make that point I think it's relevant. I think the whole thing is political if you're a councillor. I think I think we'll have to we'll have to leave that there otherwise we're going off on a tangent completely film. I've just picked up an email off Darren Williams we will be putting on up for discussion with our salty school transporter. I hope to give you a further update just an update at the next meeting in June as to where we're going as regards the school transport policy. Okay thanks Phil Rachel. Yeah just in terms of timing chair I think I would agree with councillor Davis that this clearly ties in largely to the change programme that is just commencing so I think it could be that the committee request a sort of information report update in October which could give you a where we are with the budget following new intake in September could give you an update on where we are with hazardous roots but in terms of those bigger things around policy review I would suggest that they are something that forms part of the change programme so whilst accepting that at some point in their journey they need to come here I would suggest that possibly the change programme needs to consider where they sit in that scheme of work and then map that as to when it comes back here for that bigger review some things I think are underway and ongoing and you might want an update on those some others I think we've got to consider where they fit in the fullness of the change programme and then at what point is relevant for them to come back but noting committee's view that they would want to be involved in that prior to anything going to executive court yeah I think if we've got a separate amount that's fine I maybe want to discuss about whether or not that's an information report in the in the autumn based on the conversation we've had today Donna can I just ask because there's going to be a lot of work going on with the change programme board that we link in with our scrutiny facilitators because it's crucial that we have a heads up on work programmes here isn't it and I think scrutiny the power of scrutiny really is in that supportive work isn't it and it needs to be pre-decision scrutiny as well and I'd really appreciate it if all officers and chief officers can link in the scrutiny coordinators so our scrutiny committee's got their heads up there don't I thank you Donna I think we're pretty much there I can't see anybody else indicating to input I suppose the question is to trace if you've captured all of that I was quite a bit there yeah but yeah it was just at this point I don't think we were which which specific areas are going to be coming back in in the autumn and which will need more time to do some further work as part of that change board so I don't know whether you'd want to in the recommendation list all the ones to come to a future report in terms of policy review but in the meantime in October bring those areas where the change board is at at a point where they can provide an update that might be rather be specific today in which will come October which will come later list them all and you know to come for a future a future date but in the interim October you will have they'll bring what we can in terms of whether out with that with the board I list them all on map where they going where they're set yeah I think that gives us flexibility and covers everything that we've discussed Robert Ian I just like to say that when we've got this shortfall of five million that we need to know and have perspicuity on issues that we we don't have access to about costs of transport and the reality on there I mentioned in previously and it seems to be falling on deaf ears about the supply budget so I think we need to have perspicuity if we're trying to balance the books as regards this shortfall of five million because we want the best for the children of rexom and the people of rexom who are the ratepayers of the council tax base I think officers will have agreed they'll share any information that they can share with you and there may be some limitations on what we can discuss in public session but I I don't think it's fallen on deaf ears I think there is a lot for there definitely to to engage on that Robert Ian Karen. To just one point I think it's really really important that we don't lose sight of is that although Welsh government are not going to take forward work on the learner travel measure the work on statutory guidance is actually quite critical because we will have to legally give due regard to statutory guidance so whatever we do in terms of you know reviewing or policies and so on going forward that could limit us on not as a case may be following callover I did email to ask if we can have an indication of time frames scope context and so on of the work that's going to be undertaken around that and I will follow that forward so that perhaps we have a little bit more of a definitive understanding of what that's going to look like. Okay thanks for that Karen thanks for the thanks for the report and the information. I think we've covered it quite thoroughly and on that point I'll bring the the meeting to a close.
Transcript
lifelong learning scrutiny committee. As this is a multi-location meeting we have a number of members present in the room as well as others who are joining remotely. In this room if you wish to speak please raise your hand, remote participants please raise your virtual hand to indicate you wish to speak. When called, unmute your microphone and turn it off when you've finished. The microphone for remote participants is active to enable them to hear proceedings, therefore please only speak when contributing, minimise all background noise and turn off mobile phones. Non-committee members may be in attendance, these members are entitled to participate when invited to do so but are unable to vote. There are a number of officers in attendance including the committee officer who will be acting as the Zoom host for those members attending remotely. This meeting has been recorded and will be published as soon as possible afterwards. Zoom participants please make a note of the meeting ID if you experience any technical difficulties this will allow you to rejoin by telephone. If there's a shorter German you'll be able to rejoin using the Zoom code. If the meeting is adjourned you'll be informed of a revised date and time and a fresh appointment will be forwarded. In the event of an alarm sounding here evacuate as quickly as possible using the nearest safe fire exits. Please then assemble via the Guildhall reception or through any staff green. I'll move to the first item on the agenda is apologies for absence. I've got apologies from Councillor Stella Matthews, Emily Clark Jones and are there any others? I think we had Alison Fisher. Any other apologies to note? Okay moving on to declarations of personal interest. Any declarations members want to make? Okay moving on then to the work program I'll hand over to Tracy. Thank you Chair. So the work program is attached to Appendix 1 and just to draw attention just to a few updates. So first of all the Welsh and education strategic plan. Annual items be scheduled prior to submission to the annual progress report to Welsh Government. So that's suggested that schedule for May annual report. The new curricula and Jasper progress report are the focus on secondary schools in the autumn. So that's suggested that be scheduled for December. And finally the non-for workshop. There was also an information report requested on developments in therapeutic provision. Additional support provided for pupils with challenging behaviour and it's suggested by then circulating a separate information report that could be included in the in another workshop event. So subject to those updates to chair the work programs at Appendix 1. Thank you. Okay Donna. Do we have any dates in the diarrhea for another workshop? What month are we locking up? That would be helpful. I would suggest if possible we schedule for the before the end or two. So second half of yeah June, July, probably July if that if members are equipped. So I'll liaise with Tracy if you're in agreement with that Chair. Yeah. Yeah that's fine. Members okay with all suggestions. Okay great move on to agenda item four which is a school transport update. Just for the benefit of anybody watching online. This is an area that committee have been scrutinising for about 18 months and we've looked at the budget pressures on school transport, difficulty around recruiting escorts, school escorts. We've done a lot of work on this issue in terms of post-16 transport and particularly in terms of trying to suggest solutions for six forms locally and the impact that has on the council's commitment to the Welsh language in the West and we've also looked at hazardous routes and the potential savings that could be made by addressing some of the issues with those routes. So today's report is going to touch on most of those issues. I'll hand over to Phil to introduce. Thanks very much Chair Chair. Since we last presented to the committee back in October of last year obviously we've come to the end of the financial year. So have today with me Karen Edwards from the accounts finance team. So she'll be able to provide you with clarity on where we stand financially and between the team here we'll go through what work has taken place since then as regards focusing on what is a significant budget pressure that occurred in 23-24. Just so everybody on committee on cameras aware I'm joined today by Gwen Thomas who's our strategic transport manager who's been in post now for 11 months. Obviously everybody knows Rachel Penman, Karen Edwards as I mentioned Karen Evans and David Eve and so hopefully between us we should be able to answer any questions that you have for us. So just touching initially on the budget in recognition that the cash limited budget wasn't sufficient to meet the actual true costs of school transport. The coalition as part of the budget that was approved for the current 24-25 year is that we've put in an additional 1.2 million pounds to meet that pressure which at the moment Karen will confirm is firming up to be 1.85 million over span during 23-24 that's just gone. So the additional monies that we've put into the cash limited budget doesn't actually fully cover the budget pressure so there's still work to be done to address that pressure through the year which is obviously down to offices to better manage and control transport costs going forward. So that's one area. Did you want to just break, trunk it into talking about the budget, the finances and then talk about hazardous rates if you try. That's fine if you want to go through that and I'll bring in members' questions. I'll just ask Karen if you just want to come in on the financials and also to explain there's a lot more close work taking place between HR, David Evans from Education, ALN input and obviously Karen from finance just to closely monitor the spend on school transport. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. So as Councillor WINNE mentioned and we've got it in paragraph 2.2 at the start of the year we were reporting the budget pressure around about 2.5 million so that's when we started working more closely together monitoring the contracts looking at our procurement the way that we procure the services and we managed to reduce that by 700K during the year to around about the 1.8 million which we reported at quarter three and then we had an all-member update report for the position as I enter February which is around the same time. We're just finalising the out term for 2324 but there is a slight change that's around about 1.85 million now so that will be confirmed when the out term report comes to board. So we are having, we're monitoring the school transport and budget monthly, we're not doing it by monthly because it is the high risk area, we have monthly task and finish groups that involve finance, environment and technical staff and education early intervention staff as well so we'll carry on with them in the next financial year as well as the task and finish group as well on regular budget monitoring. So yeah just as Karen said really what we've been trying to do and it's detailed in Gwen's report here is we've looked at a range of types of journeys, types of vehicles including single occupancy, those journeys that are escorted, hazardous routes, those journeys that go out of county as well as the way that we contract so using a new dynamic purchasing system has made a difference in terms of how operators tend to for journeys and in terms of being, ensuring that we're being robust and doing more regular reviews I would say in terms of the transport arrangements that are in place and all of that combined is led to is making that £700,000 within year saving. I think there's more to go clearly and I think that we do go into the new financial year with an increased budget but a pressure remaining so that work will continue. I think some of the work around hazardous routes which probably Gwen will pick up on shortly will help to address that. I think there's also a piece of work to look and whether that's done as part of our new change program at the policy for school transport and the report refers to the outcome from the Welsh Government Review of the Learner Travel Measure which I know we've talked about at this committee before and after waiting for it the outcome seems to be they're not really doing a review or they've decided the timing isn't right for that so whilst they have some ambitions to review the learner travel measure they recognise the challenges in terms of budgets and in terms of operator market etc the time probably isn't right to put additional responsibilities on to local authorities right now. What they have said is that they will update the statutory guidance which will allow for a greater emphasis on active travel, on sustainable travel, on independent travel training and things like that so there is an opportunity potentially for us to look at reviewing the policy to make sure that our policy is in line with all of those things that we're expecting to appear in the guidance which might benefit the budget again and also benefit children and young people in terms of getting them to school in an appropriate way which promotes their health and well-being as well so I think there's a number of things that we've done some things that we'll continue to do and potentially a piece of work to look at reviewing the school transport policy to see some more sort of embedded change as we go forward. Okay thanks for that Rachel, any more comments officers want to make before I bring members in? No okay um I've got Jerry first. That'll be my surprise then. Yeah just log in the report for which thanks and thanks for the introduction. Actually quite elements of the question I had you you've already answered so thank you for that. I think the first thing I just want to check out is in in 2.5 and Rachel you just refer to it then in the part of the outcome of the Welsh Government learner travel review and then last part of the paragraph 2.4 says the situation does now allow local authorities to make changes their own to own policies which you referred to or get it updated guidance is awaited. Does that mean them for example that obviously this committee's visited this in the past that if we were to recommend at some point in the future as a committee further review of post-16 transport as actually as foreseen by the administration then officer time would actually be made available for that. So that's my first question. The second one I guess is is going down to 4.3 um actions to address budget pressure and very pleased to see much more rigorous forecasting although obviously there's regret that it was less rigorous in the past maybe um and again my question really you give them some examples there of how that rigour has been applied. So two things really first of all how do you ensure if you like that actually that doesn't slip back into into ways in the past which which if you like produced inaccurate forecasts and the second one really is you talk about um the system is continuing to be refined in the present final year. Could you give me examples of what else are you going to be looking at please? So just just those three points thank you. Thank you Councillor Wellins. So the first point I think there's nothing now that the Welsh government review has concluded although there is obviously as I mentioned the updated guidance to come which and we don't have a date for that so um we are hoping to to receive that information from our government um but yes there's there's nothing really to stop us from looking at that policy for rex and school transport um whether there are opportunities to change um things in there um there's yes in terms of the rigorous forecasting um I think it's um as a as a follow on from those sort of monthly meetings that we're having with finance it means that we're in a better position to question I think I suppose there's more people involved um and that's where we pick up various anomalies if you like so even actually we had a meeting um with education earlier today where it became clear that maybe there was an issue with how things are being logged in the first place um so that yes so it allows I suppose more scrutiny of the of what's being done on a daily basis so that we can actually follow that thread back and find what we need to change so that new um ways of working can be put in place and kept as you say sort of ideally for the future. I'm sorry if I missed another element of the question. Yeah so just one more thing really is is the you're referred to in port 4.3 um system will be continued to be refined in the financial year just wondering what specifically what you've got what areas you're concentrating on in further refining please. Yeah so again um I think looking at sort of the that data that we pull through from both procurement procurement and finance and looking at the details so again in conversations we're having with education colleagues um we're drilling down into sort of what are the high cost contracts um what options there might be for those um and looking at again how we're recording things and um yeah again giving us more data to analyze really. And the other thing Jerry is that the scenery changes in September whether with the change of cohort coming into you into school and leaving school and there's opportunities where maybe if you can put two children or two pupils in one taxi rather than one then that's a clear saving that can be made to address the the current projected overspend so that's the dynamic of reviewing constantly reviewing journeys to see where inefficiencies can be driven out ideally what we would want is a far more competitive market where there's more and more taxi operators bus operators bidding for for the contracts and therefore drives down the cost to us as the customer um I was in Cardiff last week with fellow education portfolio holders with the WJC and the pressures for school transport are there in every county unfortunately so it's the market that currently is dictating the higher prices than we would want to pay but we have a statutory obligation to get children to school in various circumstances and therefore we are compelled by the market so one point I'm not sure where it is in the report is an area that we want to look at is whether we can actually imply our own drivers and use vehicles that are owned by the authority in the fleet to see whether we can actually transport some of the learners ourselves but that's a review that needs to be carried out and implemented as a pilot in September if it's proven that financially it is going to make a saving if we can do that and it's proven to make a saving and it's equally as good a service for the pupil then that is something that we could potentially look to roll out so like for instance there was a report presented to elected members about a month ago about the fleet where we have 48 mini buses parked up invariably in schools which could be used but we need to look at the legalities and the opportunity to work with schools so we could end up operating a similar situation operation as Cola Canberra where they have their own drivers mini buses and they're transporting their own learners so that is an area that we do want to look at because then that will send out a message to the market that you know we don't want to be tolerating an ever spiraling increase cost scenario as when these contracts come in to be bid by taxi operators locally so there are different ways that we can look at the market another one that we could potentially look at is that if we're transporting children out to county then it could well be that it's cheaper to actually commission an a taxi operator save from the world to come here to pick up the child to take that child to the world then us operate off in the contract to erect some taxi operator you know this is how ruthless we're going to have to be going forward because as we all know as elected members this pressure is a pressure that's absorbed by the environment department and we know therefore that pressure invariably means that savings have to be made internally by that department that impacts on our wards so I think we're all focused that we can't allow that overspend to be a lot you know we need to control it and hopefully reduce it to zero going forward hopefully that gives a bit of clarity Jerry to areas that we need to look at one thing that we're prepared to do is rather than and sub to the committee is maybe bring an information report in October with other things that we'll touch on through the discussion to give you an update as to where that piece of work is gone and if the committee's happy then we can then schedule a meeting a follow-up meeting to ensure that what we say we're doing is actually actioned and is making a difference to the budget overspend so it's just a proposal for the committee to consider thanks film Rachel yeah just to add a little bit really um councilor wellens on things that we have done and will do to better monitor that budget so um one of the things that we have done a lot better now is that where we were monitoring contract costs and using those to forecast we are aware operationally that there are a number of variations that can occur in a working day that might be because an escort is off six so the journey has to do a five-mile diversion to pick up a different escort or whatever so I think we're doing a better job now of recording those we're also doing a better job of determining when is a variation not a variation but actually a change of contract and putting some better thresholds in place and that's allowing finance colleagues to um not be surprised by when those variations mount up and they have an impact on the budget I think one of the things that um probably is still an ongoing piece of work really but again will help with monitoring is um looking at where there are peaks and troughs in the year so for example as we come into the summer term there are some pupils that um attend different establishments to do their exams and that's due to their own specific circumstances and needs but that invariably is an additional transport cost during the summer term so I think it's better sort of mapping out those peaks and troughs in the year as well so that um from a financial perspective we're expecting those and we're presenting those in forecast rather than them being a surprise which they're not they happen every year but we maybe weren't capturing those in our budget forecasting so they're the types of things that we're doing to make the forecasting as close to what happens as possible uh thanks for that Rachel just following on the data point and thanks for the honest response on that but just a bit of clarity in terms of the data then obviously you know there's been work ongoing to address some of the issues and there have been issues previously are you able to give committee assurance that the data that we have now it is accurate and it's it's up to date because that is the key concern isn't it in terms of budget forecasting that we get that assurance at committee yeah so I have to say through the monthly monitoring that we're doing the finance colleagues I think um some finance colleagues are probably as familiar with each of the school council journeys as the school council uh school transport team themselves because they are literally going through it line by line and if an invoice the following month looks different to the last month and it's not reflected in the variation spreadsheet there'll be a question as to why that's not the same as it was last month so we are literally looking at it in that level of detail to make sure that we don't go back to where we were okay thanks Rachel um Robert here thank you very much Rachel you're always very clear could you tell me how many pupils are involved in cross-border because I have the pupils in my ward who's uh who are being paid for to go to a school across the border um have you got the statistics on that and if not could we have them at future days and would those people be guaranteed uh that that will continue with the given this financial uh crisis that we seem to have uh would is that under threat in any way because I'd like to protect that because those families will be disunited I don't think we've got the figures to hand Gwen's just having a look for me but if not we can follow up with those um I think what I would say is that where we provide school transport cross-border currently it's because that is the nearest suitable school for that pupil um so it might be transporting them across the border into a different local authority but it's still closer than transporting transporting them to the nearest school in county so that shouldn't be pushing up the cost because they're still attending their nearest suitable school clearly we've referred to a review of policy um so that's something that would come out in the discussion of that but I can't see and I'm not speaking for education colleagues here I can't see a reason from a transport perspective why you would change that element of the policy. Can I just come back on that out a second I was told that it's based on a very antiquated way of establishing the distance uh and it's not uniform so some children can get free transport and others can't could that be looked into? I've just been carrying in first rates I can actually. Can I just point um keys and then I think davith will walk them in and probably add to what I'm going to say I mean first and foremost is we have to whatever our policy we have to ensure that we're adhering to the learner Wales travel measure and the learner or Wales travel measure requires us to transport to nearest appropriate school in certain circumstances um so whatever the financial challenge going forward we have to be compliant with that measure because that's um a due to. Okay do you want to add to that? Just to come back on that and I won't hog the meeting chairman it's just that it seems that the criteria apparently for establishing that distance is based on a very antiquated way. davith. Yeah sorry um we use um a mapping software so we use something called GIS maps and um that will measure um the nearest available walking route and an available walking route isn't necessarily um the safest walking route so so you know that that would trigger another part of the policy um so we do sometimes I wouldn't describe it personally as antiquated I think it's quite sophisticated but from time to time new routes become established so for example you know a new path can be created because in a state as as sprung up and naturally there's a there's a way through and we have to update the maps from time to time so every now and then we do get parents that um you know appeal and say that we haven't considered a particular route and then we just send somebody out to map that route and put it into our system so you know I'd say that's a fairly rare occurrence but but it does happen from time to time. That we've got a community where there are houses which next door to each other are in one are in Cheshire and then in others they're in Rexha and it's it's quite the border is quite erratic and the only way you can tell who's who is by the the bins uh but the you know I really do think that that system needs to be looked into because there are some cases where people are paying for their children to go to a school and other ones uh where they're not and it doesn't seem to be a very fine line so I just like to raise that issue and I know it can't be dealt with here and I've said enough but thank you very much and I know that you're very thorough and I look forward to finding out about that thank you. A couple of years ago I did go down to see the transport team to actually see the system so it literally maps from your doorstep to the nearest appropriate school and so I'm confident officers would be happy for you to go down if you've particularly got constituents that you'd like some clarity to understand how that mapping system works so you can see it for yourself but again the case in question was new brought and where a new pathway had been created which therefore made the walking route to a school short and safer which meant where people were pleased to get in free transport then weren't and so that's how it tends to operate but yeah from memory it's quite a sophisticated bit of software and I don't know if officers could add to that. I just want to say that you know unfortunately I suppose it's used to determine eligibility and that will mean that for a given school there will be next door neighbors that will measure nearer to one particular school and the other one to another particular school and there will you know we can think of areas where that happens fairly consistently and it's an eligibility check in the first place and unfortunately if it can be two meters and it makes the difference and you know we will give this person on this side of that line free transport to the school that they want to go to and this one here might want to go to exactly the same school the next door neighbors and we won't because they're not eligible so it's an eligibility check in the first instance then is the safe route check that that that that also follows on from that and just in terms of those those paths that that spring up it's interesting because quite often we find out about those paths because people informs about them because they want to tell us that they actually live closer to certain schools to be eligible to be admitted to that school and then of course that then has a knock-on impact that it can actually mean that there's a safe route that knocks people off transport eligibility so it's two sides of the same coin thanks for that it's actually just interesting to understand how the system set up actually works so thanks and thanks for the question um Brendan next thank you chair um i was delighted to hear Phil say that you're looking at resources you've already got whether that be mini buses or whatever and using the resources in place possibly to assist the process going forward when so that's really positive and everything you've said is positive the savings of 700 000 on that particular transport budget it's fantastic and all credit to you for doing that but if that's the saving within this year if you multiply that by say the last four years we're talking only three million when we're talking in terms of therefore public money in effect do we actually need to sort of say what went wrong or what was going wrong or what went we analyzing properly i think what you're doing at the moment is fantastic you're all coming together with the education finance whatever all credit to you but i think in the term in terms of transparency what was happening before? that's the question obviously i'll bring officers in but um during the covid period and soon after the the department was understaffed that was corrected obviously Gwen's coming post and she has oversight of the school transport team the ones that make sure that the contracts are allocated because it is a dynamic situation there's flux and flow of people's presenting and not presenting hunting transport so that was an issue coming out of the pandemic which we recognize probably led to inefficiencies and therefore the dynamic exercises to ensure that you minimize the journeys if you can share journeys taxis between possibly two or even three people's then that reduces the call on the number of taxis that we need to pay for so yeah i i would take that on the chin that is a fair challenge really and prior to the pandemic obviously i just think that the school budget has always been the cash limited budget has always been not truly representative of the true cost that's what we've tried to correct this year by putting in an additional 1.2 million pounds into the school transport budget in recognition that that is the reality but i'll bring Rachel in as well to give you some background so Brendan come back if he wants to make just more of a specific ask yeah thanks for that Phil i agree with you i can see i mean cold it has been an issue all the way around but in fact we're two years beyond that now and there's a 700 000 saving this year well they're last year and obviously i'm not doubting as i'm trying to make that clear not doubting what you're doing it's great but it does back to the question even pre-covid i think you've got a business head on now that you didn't have on before because you've come together i think there's a real business action going on here now that has led to this that wasn't there before looking from the outside that is the response i was expecting now if i'm wrong all i'm trying to do is what's right where am i going i think i'm trying to tease out the headlines there don't know if David wants to come in now yeah i think i would say you are correct we probably do have a better business head on now as we're working on it a couple of things i would say school transport hasn't been overspent to this degree year on year so it's not that we could have found these savings before um we we were much closer to be in on budget we were on budget there wasn't an issue i think a couple of things have happened and in the previous reports that we've brought to committee we've demonstrated the the increase in the number of children being transported and and pupils with specific needs being transported which which negates the need for which sorry creates the need for individual taxis for increased escorts for transport out of county so the numbers and the volume have increased and on top of that we've seen massive inflation so what was unique to last year was fuel costs operator costs we're all going through the roof and so whilst i do um sort of the silver lining that always comes out of crisis i suppose is we are working with a lot more of a business head on as now but that's not to say that these issues were there before they weren't we were coming in on or around budget and and the world around us has changed and i think probably the impact of covid was that it masked a little bit the growing cost of school transport because for a lot of the period of covid we weren't transporting the volume of pupils we were receiving some cash grant from um whilst government to cover some of those costs so in a way all that covid did was um delay the inevitable that was coming down the line potentially um and maybe there was a miss um a misplaced optimism that post covid the world would return to a bit more normal times and in terms of costs of living fuel operator costs that it hasn't dropped back to those levels so that's why last year we ended up where we were so absolutely we've improved the way that we work but just to be clear we weren't in this budget position year on year so that they weren't the savings we needed to find out how to use your mic that's why it's impressive because even with the rising fuel costs there's a 700 000 pounds saving and those costs keep going up petrol diesel whatever um so that that's impressive and i was just trying to clarify you know for the committee thank you thanks i think it is useful thankfully watching online to get that context and that detail as well Phil can i also add i think scrutiny is playing a valuable part because you know you're putting the spotlight on this and it's really helped us focus down on what was a overspend that was way out of order but a lot of that was just recognition that the cash commitment to budget that we'd set hadn't been reflective of the true costs it might have increased with inflation three four percent but as Rachel said you know as more and more demand and for more complex journeys that are more costly than that cash limited budget didn't actually keep pace with inflation but likewise it is still a pressure and therefore we do need to double down and find savings that we can efficiencies and another area that probably down within current can input is that obviously our intentions is to ensure that more additional additional learning provision is provided in county and the consequence of that is that we will not then be transporting children out of county which is a journey that will save on their school day but also therefore save on school transport that is something we can't deliver now but that is definitely in the pipeline and that's pieces of work that Davids currently working on under you know our capital strategic outline plan as to new provision that we're going to be aspiring to deliver within maximum over the next few years Just just following on from that Phil because as a reference in the report I'm assuming you're talking about the social emotional behavior difficulties provisioning county is there any idea in terms of a ballpark saving that that could make as yet I know we're talking about something going forward but we're not at that stage where we can estimate no that would be confirmed but I think that provision will be about for 50 or 60 pupils so that's potentially the market what that means for transport that as Davids would have to give an in a flavor I would say what that implication is I won't hold people to a figure I realize it's obviously early days but I just think given the potential for savings if there's any sort of ballpark idea that would be useful to understand I think the the complexity of it is is that we're we're looking to establish a new provision that will eventually cater for the number of pupils that council wins I can't find that and it will take us a number of years to get to that to that point um so you know just sort of even doing a simple calculation and trying to look at where those pupils are now and sort of saying that we could save it I think we we would literally be fucking figures out of the year so it'll be a saving that will double come through over a number of years I just want to assure you though that the the work that we're doing together now I think is is more refined and the the detail that we're looking at I think is is is much greater but you know in education we've chaired a group with transport and finance around the table for a number of years around transport and part of it has always been looking at costs including high cost movements and looking to see how we can work together to try to you know we've been talking about combining people so that that's something that we've we've always done and there's been subgroups of of of that as well where we've been looking at you know particular provision so that that's that's that's always happened but what we're what we're doing now is getting into much more granular detail about it and the information we've got in front of us is is much more useful Aaron just make a point as well I think I think this is a really complex area because we have to adhere to learner travel measure but within that we have to adhere to other duties as well you know and pieces of legislation so you know we've got equalities act we've got public public services equality duties we've got adherence to the Welsh in education strategic plan and then of course we've got duties within the ALM reform bill as well and I think that what this scrutiny has probably enabled us to do is to ensure that there's a greater understanding of the complexity of provision because you know if we're for example talking about transporting a child to a high cost-out county placement if we don't transport the alternative might be residential which might be even more costly and actually there are some things that are out of our control so there are some things that legislation and statutory guidance requires us to do but sometimes as well we can be required to place such make a provision for a child in a certain placement through educational tribunal and so on you know so it's it's not kind of we do this over here that will deliver a saving over there because it's it's such a complex and kind of interconnected area which is why obviously the requirement that granular scrutiny is really important I think thank you thanks Karen Dana yeah thank you Charlie I was just going back through the budget monitoring back to pre-corporate and we have had issues previously haven't we with school transports specifically out of county and what I'm gonna say as well I get that this is a relevant you know really a new team isn't it because you know when it's been imposed now coming up 12 months obviously Karen as well is is is new to the the finance monitoring budget monitoring and I think as well what we've got to understand and it follows on from what the chief officer was saying lately it's it's a difficult if we're looking at this purely from a budget monitoring point of view and bring the cash budget in balanced then we've got clients that are delivered by education with a service being delivered by the environment so there's difficulty there because obviously you're not in control of your clients and because of the travel measured and everything else and safeguarding and all the you know all the regulations that come under there and you're not in control of your budget so it's you know looking at this I'm trying to look at this report from the point of view of are we underfunded from the school transport points of view or do we still have issues with projecting demand and I can't quite get my head around the issues of projecting demand because they go you know once they go through primary into secondary we we know who we've got in primary so there should be some false sight there shouldn't it with regards to distance numbers and everything else and but also as well from the model that we adopt and I'm I am concerned because reading the first paragraph of this report and I was very much from the points of view of you know where's our contract monitoring where's our contract management because that's bread and butter stuff isn't it basic stuff though we should have been getting right you know five years ago never mind you know we've been under huge budget pressures now for a number of years we've been asking departments to underspend to net off against all the spends in other departments so you know we're now at a position where you know we've come into scrutiny and it's you know we've we've learned lesson and I think that lesson the wake-up call for those that we've all been honest was 23.8 million projected or was spent last year wasn't it that was the kick that started everything in in the local authority and started us thinking about you know we need to get our forecasting right to do that we need to know what our demand is and we need to put in demand management um so you know going to that that it there is a question here about wasted money isn't it um you know we have to we have to recognize that we've been mad not to um we've got to understand what our baseline is in this report I'm still trying to understand what the baseline is because we've got now am I correct in thinking that um the nets what is it the cash-limited budget now is 6.9 million for school transport where are we from the point of view of what's our demand and I understand you know there's a potential of another 700 000 pound savings in that but I'm still trying to get to the point of you know can we answer that question or can you answer the question today is school transport undefunded or is it just not receiving the um you know is it are we not just putting enough in the budget to meet the demand because we know how many kids we've got are that a client to the service I think um in a nutshell I would say it's it's at this point it's likely that it's undefunded because we do have a clearest year on demand and especially for mainstream that is very easy and actually year on year we don't see a significant change in the the journeys that we procure from mainstream transport they tend to be the year 11s leave the year 7s take their spot and and the transport remains fairly transport remains static you shouldn't say that but you know what I mean um the arrangements remain fairly predictable I think the bit that's harder to predict is around um and whether um David and Karen want to come in on that is around the ALN need and the specific needs of an individual child can make a significant difference to the cost of that journey if they need a tail lift vehicle if they need a single occupancy if they're going out of county that's a that's a little bit harder to predict but we are um in a situation now where as soon as children are known to education we're having that conversation from a school transport perspective and it might be that we can make changes within existing arrangements to um plan for that child coming on board um or it might be that it's a fresh journey but but but we're doing that much earlier and less reactively um but I think essentially to deliver school transport in line with the policy that we've got the budget isn't big enough it's better than it was last year but the budget isn't big enough and so the follow-up question to that is what should be the value of that budget you know let's let's get to that point isn't it for all sort of value points about the ALN obviously the um the mitigation that you've put in this past 12 months because of that you know 23.8 million wake-up call um the one of the um mitigation that you've put in we've sought to see that ALN provision where you've um you've saved 17 places I mean all the new demand is coming in at 20 so we've got an idea there haven't we where that is obviously I would imagine now from the ALN point that you know I'm really interested in this regional piece of work now that needs to happen because it's not just us with ALN you know it's and universally ALN and needs have changed since COVID and um you know it's it's recognizing but not only recognizing what those immediate needs are it's you know the shock for me in this report as well was that we don't review we didn't do the plan we did the do but we don't go back and do the review either do we and needs alter especially with potentially the support the pupils are getting through way ALN um you know when you're talking about complex needs you're looking at working with families to reduce the complex and obviously support the independence and and yes so from that point there's a journey that our kids are going on and we're not going back and doing the review are we it's it's very much you know the decisions made and it's prescriptive so I don't know whether there's any work that you can tell me about that's happening to you know you've covered the plan we're doing a lot more planning that we can see in here and so if you can tell me about that regional piece of work because I was happy to see that in the report given the decision as well that executive board made and I think Council Wellens alluded to where we were stuck on resources for the scrutiny committee around you know around the school transport also as well 4.13 you're exploring the possibility of purchasing vehicles and creating the job description for drivers to be employed and you touched on that fell can I have some understanding that is that like a job extension to what are they already existing employees of the council or is that basically and I'm trying to understand there from a school escorts point of view they're employed by the council so they become an employee what you know what is different apart from we're going to give them a vehicle and potentially hopefully an equal vehicle if it's you know if it's possible because it affects with that so if you can talk to me about that and also as well what's the dynamic purchasing system is that something new how long have we had that system in place because if we've had that system in place for a while why have we only got 72% of contracts that have been let through the system because that is only three quarters so what's happening to the other quarter you know there's a gap there's a gap to plug there isn't it and then my final question is 4.20 about the hazardous routes and we talked about this the last time the report come to scrutiny because we put it in the recommendation about potentially mitigation could be that the environment department who are responsible for the budget locks that making routes less hazardous so that it would take the pressure off this budget rather than feeding the budget you know obviously deal with the source of the issue. In here it says that the hazardous routes appeal panel to deal with the appeals and it says there hasn't been a number of appeals for a while now we're going to the AGM of council this hazardous routes panel has been disbanded in this year's council my concern is that further than the report it tells us that there has this route process is historic so I'm like well hang on a minute once we review something historic because it needs updating because we're going to go back and do the review best and we then going to have appeals feeding potentially feedings with the system and if we are while we disbanding it has this route panel in council on the 22nd 23rd so I think you know there's there's a lot of stuff to work through isn't there solid chair thank you okay the suggestion is that decision would then go to the chief officer and I know there are members from that panel in the room and they're very welcome if they want to comment on what's being set out in the report in terms of that panel um Phil and a number of them just challenging questions yeah there'll be I think there'll be a recommendation to council in that AGM for obvious reasons okay Phil yeah thanks long for the questions I'll pick up on one and then I'll bring the officers in about the dynamic system how that operates when it came into being why there's only three quarters of the contracts on that system at the moment my understanding is some contracts are issued for three years but obviously I'll allow officers to expand on that one thing that Karen Evans is keen is to ensure that we have capacity within the authority to address the needs of children with specific medical and needs that are presenting in quite large numbers on spectrum so forth and that's the whole purpose of NODFRA and therefore if NODFRA is delivering what we intend is that that early intervention particularly with the primary school children will hopefully ensure that that child then remains within the primary school that resides in the community that child lives and if that's the case then there isn't a transport implication it's only if that child's needs can't then be met by that local school or the nearest provision that then it becomes a school transport concern so that that is one of the important outcomes of the the work that NODFRA are now delivering on so but we need more of that provision going forward yeah and a more in-county provision and that's again the aspiration of this authority is to through the strategic outline plan the capital program is to ensure that we do provide more of that facility in county so happy to answer that response I'll ask officers to come in to explain about the dynamic and the change in the appeals process as well and you just provide what a baseline this budget should be I think that's the starting point for this committee fell we need to know what is a non-undefunded amount what it should require this budget it's a very dynamic situation but the budget was 1.8 million and to spend on a budget cash budget of 5.6 oh we spent sorry so that's about 7.4 million we've put 6.9 million in so mathematically it's about half a million pounds ideally we would want to put additionality into the cash limited budget but i'm sure cattle will correct me if i'm wrong but likewise we could put the money in but then that takes away the sort of need to be more dynamic to drive down costs as well because you you know if the budget was there then maybe we wouldn't be as focused on trying to drive out in efficiencies and costs which is what we need to do doubly but ideally an additional half million pounds would would mean the cash limited budget reflects the true costs that we're currently incurring or having curd i think you would hope that we would still be looking for those efficiencies Phil but i think it's a fair question to ask what the baseline would be can yeah i think that's what we're going to start to be doing now ready for when we do our next q1 forecast for the next report that comes to executive board i think we go to the end of may so we'll be going in july so based on the knowledge now that we've got over the last 12 months we'll be looking at those number of people's understanding what estimate to put in for new september intake because that's all with the difference and then the january intake but i think because of all the work that we've done we sort of like Rachel said we're aware now of the peaks and the troughs so we're going to start that now we're just finalizing 23 24 looking at the numbers so that when we come to exact board with our forecast based on the position as at end of may we'll have a reason of our number of assumptions and contingencies in which i think is probably what we need to do and so that then would highlight what potentially the gap is and then that comes into the budget rounds if needed about whizzing glasses off whether we need to build in more as a budget pressure alongside working to try and reduce costs and make efficiencies as well i think that's what piece of work we do so that should come back on there and that makes sense because should a demand driven service aren't you so you know it's not it's not oh because this figure minus that figure i've got on is half a million it is very much that proper accurate data to deliver on you know what you're to deliver your forecast to then obviously make the demand because these kids leads are are changing aren't they i'll bring everyone back in but just just just to clarify as well as a couple of other questions on um cloud and how employing drivers will work the dynamic purchasing system and the houses just roots appeal panel so we can cover those i don't know who wants to go first carol was first and the reason yet i think it's just really to just to focus um our minds on our responsibility and duty to transport children with additional enemies so the children who we transport probably on longer journey is high cost placements are children with really complex needs who are really vulnerable and the majority well all of those children will not change in terms of the level and seriousness of need that we're supporting um we have a duty to do that but most importantly we have a moral responsibility to ensure that those children are kept safe so i wouldn't want us to really fall into the trap of thinking that we can make significant savings um or cuts um to our duties in response of duties and responsibilities to those children because we do um obviously assess progress on an annual basis through the annual review process and so on and inclusion officers you know we'll look at holistically the provision for the child but due to the level of need you know they've got they require specialist placement because of the level of need you know there's got to be um a degree of realism around the fact that that level of need is not likely to change so that duty will remain with us um and quite rightly so you know so i'm just concerned that yes it's a significant cost but they are a minority in terms of their sum total um of who we're transporting and because of the level of specialism you know our duty and commitment is to transport to ensure that we're safeguarding um their need and their vulnerability but we're also supporting their access to education which is their absolute entitlement so i do want to make that point because we could get lost in the debate of thinking that there are significant savings to be made when the reality is there isn't can i add to that because i think as well i just want to assure you i think the the issue around the review is about what the group has been reviewing we've always had an annual review process that has included a consideration of of the transport requirements of the pupil um and as kalen says although it doesn't happen very often um there will be times when we might say that a child um when we initially assessed them could have required quite a high level of support you know even sometimes um two escorts to one one pupil um and then through the review process that that can reduce you know even to the point where they might be in single occupancy vehicles and and no longer require that and we can put them in with other pupils so that has always been a consideration and communication between education and the transport department and through the groups i've i've discussed earlier that's always been in place so we've always looked to try to minimize our costs i think what we did do at the beginning this year which i think was particularly useful was look at the nature of of some of our transport so for example when we looked at that um list of single occupancy we matched that to the ones that we said in education required single occupancy and then there were others that were single occupancy because they were just the only child that was going from that particular place to another particular place and that that there's nothing more we can do about it but at least we knew that we could add children to that route if if if others you know um we're going to that particular provision and we're on on the route so we we do that and we do that more regularly now you know to make sure that we're looking at a particular type of transport um or you know particular type of high cost transport and then looking at right does that then match what we're actually requesting and what why are there others on there um and and you know what are the reasons for that and other anything we can do about it we just helped hasn't it thank you for that because um get you correct to make the distinction between complex needs and behavioral needs and and various other things and i think you know the what will put my eyes in this report as well was you know about the hazardous routes and that being historical and that was something uh you know through the work of the committee that's something that's being highlighted then and taken forward for a review isn't it i think the report's looking at two years for that review to take place um yeah thank you okay i will bring you in Robert and i just want to make sure we picked up um all of those questions that were just a couple there on the dynamic purchasing system i think i'm just on the appeals panel so i don't know who wants to pick those up um yeah so and then on the regional work it's very early days but as as i think we've mentioned between it all you know that the local authorities are facing similar challenges so it's very early days in terms of talking to those other local authorities and it's a little bit of a what are the options what what could we potentially what where would where would they potentially be savings if at all um then on the DPS so that's only being being used by the school transport team in the last year so you know 75% is actually quite high considering that we still have um contracts that are still you know not have not been brought in on the dynamic purchasing system and so that that's that will hopefully improve and improve as as we go on um and then on the hazardous routes appeals yes so the the policy that we have in place or the process that we have in place sorry for hazardous routes um in Rex and Canterbury Council is historical um there was a there was a there was a guidance that a lot that came along alongside um or to follow on from the learner travel measure um in 2014 and we've never adopted that process um so we need to you know it's it needs a whole scale start up from scratch look at all those routes again and that's why it's going to take two years obviously to consider the ones that we think where there's most opportunity to make savings in the first instance and and work our way because obviously some of them there might only be one child that is being transported because that hazardous routes for example can i just drill down on that because she was saying there's part of the wheels travel measure around hazardous routes that we've never adopted and we're 10 years behind so can you explain whether that has an impact on the budget um you know come what gents are some when i'm asking you know where's obviously if we haven't adopted something the question is why but then what's the impact isn't there i've not adopted that so if she cannot explain that to me please yeah i'm afraid i can't tell you why we've not gone over to that preliminary post that the newer process um obviously um we'll await the the newer guidance to see how much of a difference it is from the current to to sort of what we'll what we'll we'll follow going forward um and then in terms of the savings or potential savings um yeah sorry this is in the report of there's this outline sort of very high um high level costing yeah so we were looking at sort of 10 um services whereby approximately we can save around about 282 000 per annum but that's you know that's a little bit finger in the air and yeah um but obviously there would still be also to bring those routes up to a good standard we'd we'd need to spend to to save yeah so they'd need to be that would be a very long term process if you like yeah Rachel yeah just to add to what Gwen said really i think the difference in what is contained in the statutory guidance and our existing process is that the um guidance and again we'll await a further update is much more prescriptive than it used to be on what constitutes a hazardous route so it actually gives you kind of traffic count gaps in traffic whether there's a pedestrian island to help with crossing how wide the footpath is what we used to do and and the the process that's outlined at the back of your report pack is that panel of elected members would go and walk that route and make that decision and actually with that prescriptive evidence-based process there is almost aside from there may be a more subjective view of um the kind of social element of of what is safe but in terms of the traffic and highway safety there isn't really room for an opinion on that now because that will be evidence-based and so it's much better much more robust much clearer what we um whilst we haven't updated the the policy as Gwen said what we have done and some of the work that Gwen's doing is to go through our hazardous routes and there are some those big groups that Gwen's identified in the report that we know remain hazardous even with the new guidance because we can see exactly why they are hazardous and and they're not an easy fix there are a couple that I think when we get clarity absolute clarity on 20 miles an hour it might be that the traffic flow the gaps in traffic allow us but they might be the types of journeys where we've got one child traveling that location so they're not big um financial benefit but they bring us in line with where we need to be thank you for that and I think the impact as well is on well being as now because as part of the speak of future generations future generations that we should be taken into consideration so it overlaps into a law and I've always saw you know since last week meeting we've had the um not a quick when but the work we need to focus on those hazardous routes and get them up to standard and I'd be interested in certain reports coming to committee as well around that spend to save because I think that's a priority area isn't it yeah it's a point with me consistently and just on that as well I think it was um another thing that we might not be able to you know say how much we'd save but obviously if you were saying well we don't need a taxi or a bus for that journey now that's another taxi and driver or bus and driver that can go back into that market that hopefully then helps to bring the the mix there's a bigger mix or a bigger feel to put those bids in on the other contracts um yeah Robert here thank you very much I'd just like to say to begin with that's a statement before I make a question that the hazardous route to me for instance is the a 525 which I think is one of the most dangerous roads in the county borough so I really do feel that that's used by buses and the issue that I want to raise because you've quite rightly and they've defended the principle that children with special needs need very careful nurturing with their transport is the mainstream in coaches and just as with the the issue that I've raised on numerous occasions in this committee about the fact that three million pounds of our budget is being given to privatized supply agencies who are totally unregulated how much of this dynamic that we have here in 4 what is it uh 4.14 how much is that concentrating on the big bus companies who transport our children as well do these companies have a monopoly is there a like five year contract with the buses or is it renewable at different times I'm interested in there and not just because of savings or anything but I'd like to find out the facts on that thank you because I see the buses coming into the village every day and it's the same company thank you um yes I'm not sure of that um of our contracts how much of within each operator but we could find that information that's that would be yeah very easy to find um and then sorry what was the other section of the question? Poppy Mike on Robert Ian please. I just use an analogy with the supply teaching budget amounting to over three million and that was last year in the in the borough and I was asking I led into the question of the uh the finance of the mainstream bus services because we've had a very eloquent defense of the uh the individual transport needs but I also made a point which is more of a point than a question about hazardous routes because I would say that the route that I travel to work on every day the A525 is a very dangerous road and I've seen the deaths of several people in in uh since I would been elected so I would uh you know look look at that on a general perspective but the other issue of the finance of the companies who are operating the buses for what would be Kirk called the mainstream pupils the majority of pupils uh in public school transfer in public transport I'd be very interested in the finances of that and how that dynamic in 4.14 chooses these companies who seem to have like a monopoly of the buses okay thank you yeah thanks for the question Robert um the sum routes will always be hazardous especially if you represent rural wards we will never be able to put a pavement from and the likelihood is that lots of those routes are over two miles or three miles anyway because the nature of being a rural ward so they're not that they'll never be addressed ideally we want every child to walk to school because we've got obesity as an issue of them in Wales and in the western world so if we can encourage more children yeah yeah so so so the particular hazardous routes the the obvious one is koi poi to koi dog and it's uh new brought into Brynallen that those are the routes that are significant numbers but again because of the hazardous nature they they may be a engineering solution but that ain't going to be cheap and that's basically the two the quarter of a million pounds that Gwen referred to those are the two major routes but there are also individual routes even through through the city centre so um sorry Robert Ian just have one one person speaking notice just you need to pop your mic on or they won't be able to hear you on online okay i i'm sorry i don't want to interrupt and i respect the chair that the fact is is that do you have any on the spot confirmation of how much those buses are costing us like i mentioned the three million budget which i got from freedom of information request could you tell me how much the buses the main stream buses are costing the authority within that budget okay we might have that circulated Gwen will find that the information food but ultimately buses are in the private sector so it'll always be i give you as many operators in the market competing against one another to drive down cost but again after covid it wasn't an ideal market private market and therefore you know there was fewer and fewer operators in in the market and therefore that tends to drive up cost but that's information i'm pretty sure Gwen can pull off the system and give to you as regards how much should we do spend with bus operators and and the thing is if we can spend more with bus operators than other options then that gives more chance that we'll have more bus services running within raksim which will also benefit obviously everybody within the county if there are more buses operating because again ideally you'd want children to be using the the bus routes that exist so that there's more money going intimate those routes more sustainable hopefully that more routes more buses are put on those routes that would be the ideal outcome quickly come back it's just that i would think analogically that we need to see the cost effectiveness of the of the the monopoly that some of the bus companies seem to have and it would be very interesting to have those statistics and finances placed before us thank you okay thanks Robbie and Gwen yeah just in terms of commercial sensitivity we wouldn't be able to give you um informational you know cost per operator but we could give you an overall view of sort of mainstream bus costs and and i think we do have a number of different operators it might be that in one area there there seems to be the same operator but you know we're raksim wide we we do have not tons but we have um a mix of operators and maybe one of the issues is that they all have a limited number of vehicles so that then effects sort of how you know where they can actually if they've already bid on x number of journeys they can't bid on another x number because they literally don't have the the buses and the drivers i i think that's just general council policy Robert Ian it wouldn't be um anything that the officers could deviate from um i'm aware that we've lost Derek so i'm hoping it's because his question's been answered because he was waiting patiently and didn't manage to bring him in um darling are you indicating again but i'll just bring in i'll just bring in Ross first because he's indicating he has no chance to speak thank you chair just just i'm on something to his school transfer obviously um the escorts are vital you know to just school transport what's the current situation on the recruitment and retention at the moment because obviously they're a vital part of it and uh how's that looking thank you oh yes so we um we've got a vacancy live on the council website and that's still up because we what we're finding is that even though we are managing to recruit um new escorts people are retiring you know moving on to other roles maybe because of either wanting more hours or the job you know it's uh it's quite a specific job role in terms of sort of split shift if you like um yeah so we're going to keep that vacancy live until we find that maybe we were at least at the moment we're also just keeping our heads above water but we'd like to obviously be in a situation where we have enough relief escorts so that when people are ill um that we don't have to cancel transport that we can we we have enough of that relief basically all of the food yes yes to build it for thank you Karen I think this is a really challenging area and I think it's one where we've got to be really really vigilant and consistent with because obviously if we don't have an available escorts it means a child actually cannot access their education entitlement go to school um so I think to be fair there's been an awful lot of work that's been undertaken by um you know colleagues in transport and HR to address this but I think it will be um a remain in concern and an area that we will have to continue to exercise kind of vigilance Phil? Yeah thanks Chair. One of the consequences that we haven't uh be able to ascertain yet is that because of the budget pressures that we're facing this current financial year and therefore the five million pound efficiency savings that we've asked schools to make this financial year is that unfortunately stuff will be facing redundancy we can't quantify that yet because the schools are are feeding into the local authority the consequences of how they're having to manage their budget but there is a implication for staffing and some of them are going to be TAs and by consequence some of them may actually be escorts so it is a watching brief at the moment but that is potentially one of the consequences which therefore makes our role that job of retaining as many escorts as possible more challenging going forward but you know that's just the honesty of the situation at the moment. Just um just before I um well Rob Ian's indicated again I'd bring him back in and then Donna but um just to steer really from offices because I think there was a suggestion from you full of an information report I think from the discussion people would probably want a little bit more than than an information report I think we'd want updates on um budgets on where we are with hazardous routes and we know there's timing issues with that in terms of the review of 20 miles an hour um there's an indication as well that there'll be a review of the policy more generally um an executive already agreed to that and I think we would give them previous discussions want input on um a review to to that before it went to executive and we've got some standard items on our work program in terms of um the flinch of policy I'd like to see something coming back to us with a focus on um concessionary seats in terms of post-16 so there's a lot in there and I'm looking for a steer really on weather weather offices maybe think it's possible to tie that all in to one report I know we're waiting on Welsh Government guidance as well and just before we get to recommendations um just any input maybe on the timing of when we'd want to look at things again if anybody's got any thoughts it's all in the timing isn't it um like if we can keep it fluid then we'll definitely bring a report back to committee it's just we'd want that report to be meaningful and it'll be dependent on that review um I will ensure that the discussion is taken to the senior leadership team about school transport especially with this announcement of the Welsh Government about the um earn a travel and measure um so I can't make any promises at this moment about the review of our own school policy but that is a discussion I'm quite happy to take back to uh executive board members and obviously the directors and take it from there so obviously we were talking about bringing in information report just as a holding statement in october just to let you know what we've done since this meeting but obviously it's the impact of that that obviously I'm most well I'm sure shared where most isn't interested in so I don't know if officers can think obviously we'd need X number of months after october wouldn't we to to see the implications um so I don't know how soon you'd want it back really. It's just it's whether we can tie everything together rather than having separate reports coming back maybe you can't answer that today and it's something that we'll have to discuss in call over I think that would be the ideal but I think you know an information report would just be circulated to it wouldn't it wouldn't come really for discussion so while I'm picking up as we would want more discussion um I'll just I know people are waiting I'll bring in Dan and Robert Ian and then if you've got any thoughts on the timing come back in. Yeah first just an observation before I pick up um exactly what the chair was um trying to nail down um we're going to be careful when we're talking about the bus industry market haven't we because we're limited with no deregulation um at the moment and obviously that's a UK devolved discussion isn't it um so from from that point um just on the points that um you you will bring in now Carrie um I think it ties into the work of this committee um around the change and efficiency program board and that's what we need to be locking up because all this will come through because if we have a look at 4.15 those really are our recommendations going going forward the third one is for the school transport budget pressures to be considered by the newly formed change and efficiency program board I would say we would like with regards to the timing we would like once it's being considered by the board but it comes here before it goes to exec board um and then we can add to that work then can't we um or we can challenge you know where where we need to be challenging and then in in addition to them four bullet points on 4.15 um definitely we want to know about the spend to save and the work in that area because you might need a recommendation from this committee for the spend bet um to be able to save um obviously the hazardous roots yeah we've got an idea that it could be two years worth of work but we want to be pushing that along as part of the scrutiny committee and adding to that work um we talked about the school transport and the change and efficiency program board the collaboration with the neighboring local authorities is crucial as well as now why reinvent the wheel I would ask as well in addition to that I would ask for another three um we need as the committee in the next report to understand um the cash limited budget um to meet the demand and we know then that may change on the year to year but we know September obviously mid-year is the turning point for us it's never the new cohort um I would say as well um we need to show runs that we're fully compliant with the wheels measure because there's that element that's 10 years old that's been messed um and also as well around the recruitment and retention of school escorts because that's one to watch if we are not potentially incentivizing that then the alternative is high cost delivery isn't it and so I get what Phil was saying about you know we need to potentially everybody on the buses but that's not possible with complex needs is there and we need to make sure that we're maximizing those who can access school transport um but we need to be managing how we deliver you know what the models are and how we deliver those individual models efficiently and effectively isn't it so I would ask for those three to be included in the 4.5 that's already listed so seven recommendations thank you chair as well as the financial aid yeah but that I was going to say we can tie that in with the collaboration and neighboring authorities can we so if we can include you know the French delivery model from the previous discussion into that recommendation for yeah I think we're looking to nail down the detail but we're on the same page there'll be a lot of recommendations but we'll be repeating a lot of what we've said previously as well just bring Robert Ian in first and then I'll bring you back in Mitchell what has really worked to me in this discussion here today we hear this constant refrain of the the restraints of Welsh government and budgets and yet we only heard on the news yesterday that they're going to spend 18 million in creating 36 new jobs for politicians and they're entourage I really do think that at the end of the day we should come strongly to Welsh government and say their budget priorities should be to look at what the people of Wales need and we've seen here how Karen on a shoestring is defending the the rights of the of those children with special needs and it really irks me that we seem to have a Welsh government and I'd love this to be put on record who have grandiose ideas and yet do not seem to be in touch with the reality and that here we've got Philip when joining the book I want to make that point I think it's relevant to me is non-political chair well I think the whole thing is political if you're a councillor it's non-political I think I think we'll have to we'll have to leave that there otherwise we're going off on a tangent completely film I've just picked up an email off Darren Williams we will be putting on up for discussion with our salty school transporter I hope to give you a further update just an update at the next meeting in June as to where we're going as regards the school transport policy okay thanks Phil Rachel yeah just in terms of timing chair I think I would agree with Councillor Davis that this clearly ties in largely to the change programme that is just commencing so I think it could be that the committee request a sort of information report update in October which could give you a where we are with the budget following new intake in September could give you an update on where we are with hazardous roots but in terms of those bigger things around policy review I would suggest that they are something that forms part of the change programme so whilst accepting that at some point in their journey they need to come here I would suggest that possibly the change programme needs to consider where they sit in that scheme of work and then map that as to when it comes back here for that bigger review some things I think are underway and ongoing and you might want an update on those some others I think we've got to consider where they fit in the fullness of the change programme and then at what point is relevant for them to come back but noting committee's view that they would want to be involved in that prior to anything going to executive court yeah I think if we've got to separate them out that's fine I maybe want to discuss about whether or not that's an information report in the in the autumn based on the conversation we've had today Donna can I just ask because there's going to be a lot of work going on with the change programme board that we link in with our scrutiny facilitators because it's crucial that we have a heads up on work programmes here isn't it and I think scrutiny the power of scrutiny really is in that supportive work isn't it and it needs to be pre-decision scrutiny as well and I'd really appreciate it if all officers and chief officers can link in the scrutiny coordinators so our scrutiny committee's got the heads up there don't I thank you Donna I think we're pretty much there I can't see anybody else indicating to input I suppose the question is to trace have you captured all of that and it was quite a bit there yeah it was just at this point I don't think we were which which specific areas are going to be coming back in in the autumn and which will need more time to do some further work as part of that change board so I don't know whether you'd want to in the recommendation list all the ones to come to a future report in terms of policy review but in the meantime in October bring those areas where the change board is at at a point where they can provide an update that might be rather be specific today in which will come October which will come later list them all and you know to come for a future a future date but in the interim October you will have they'll bring what we can in terms of whether out with that with the board I list them all and map where they're going where they're set yeah I think that gives us flexibility and covers everything that we've discussed Robert Ian I just like to say that when we've got this short fall of five million that we need to know and have perspicuity on issues that we don't have access to about costs of transport and the reality on there I mentioned that previously and it seems to be falling on deaf ears about the supply budget so I think we need to have perspicuity if we're trying to balance the books as regards this shortfall of five million because we want the best for the children of rexom and the people of rexom who are the ratepayers at the council tax base I think officers will have agreed they'll share any information that they can share with you and there may be some limitations on what we can discuss in public session but I I don't think it's fallen on deaf ears I think there is a lot for there definitely to to engage on that Robert Ian Karen. To just one point I think it's really really important that we don't lose sight of is that although Welsh government are not going to take forward work on the learner travel measure the work on statutory guidance is actually quite critical because we will have to legally give due regard to statutory guidance so whatever we do in terms of you know reviewing or policies of so on going forward with that could limit us or not as a case may be following callover I did email to ask if we can have an indication of time frames scope context and so on of the work that's going to be undertaken around that and I will follow that forward so that perhaps we have a little bit more of a definitive understanding of what that's going to look like we care. Okay thanks for that Karen thanks for the thanks for the report and the information I think we've covered it quite thoroughly and on that point I'll bring the meeting to a close the (speaks in foreign language)
Summary
The council meeting focused on addressing the challenges and inefficiencies in school transport, particularly for children with special needs and those traveling hazardous routes. Discussions revolved around budget constraints, policy updates, and the need for a comprehensive review of existing transport strategies.
Decision 1: Review of School Transport Policy The council decided to review the school transport policy, especially concerning hazardous routes and compliance with the Learner Travel Measure. Arguments for the review emphasized safety and cost-effectiveness, while concerns were raised about the time required for implementation. The decision aims to enhance safety and potentially reduce costs, aligning with statutory guidance updates.
Decision 2: Engagement with Change and Efficiency Program Board The council agreed to involve the Change and Efficiency Program Board in examining school transport budget pressures. Proponents argued this would ensure a strategic approach to financial management and service delivery, while there were no significant opposing views. This decision is expected to streamline operations and identify potential savings, crucial under the current budget constraints.
Interesting Occurrence: A notable moment in the meeting was the expression of frustration regarding perceived misprioritization of funds by the Welsh Government, highlighting a tension between local needs and national policy decisions. This underscored the council's challenges in balancing essential services against fiscal limitations. The council meeting focused on addressing the budget pressures of school transport, exploring potential efficiencies, and reviewing policies related to hazardous routes and the Welsh Government's learner travel measure. The committee discussed various strategies to manage and potentially reduce costs while maintaining compliance with statutory obligations.
Budget for School Transport:
- Decision: To acknowledge the ongoing budget pressures and the need for additional funding.
- Arguments: There was recognition that despite recent savings, the budget remains insufficient to cover all transport needs, particularly due to increased costs and higher demand for specialized transport for pupils with additional learning needs.
- Implications: The committee agreed on the necessity to continue seeking efficiencies and possibly adjust the budget to better reflect actual costs, ensuring that all eligible students receive necessary transport without compromising the service quality.
Review of Hazardous Routes:
- Decision: To initiate a comprehensive review of hazardous routes as per updated statutory guidance.
- Arguments: Some members expressed concerns about the safety of certain routes and the historical lack of updates to the hazardous routes policy.
- Implications: The review could lead to significant changes in transport routes, potentially increasing safety for students but requiring upfront investment to improve infrastructure, which could impact the budget.
Adoption of a Dynamic Purchasing System (DPS) for Transport Contracts:
- Decision: To continue the implementation of the DPS to enhance competition and cost-effectiveness in transport services.
- Arguments: Proponents argued that the DPS would lead to better market rates and services due to increased competition. Skeptics were concerned about the transition and the readiness of local operators.
- Implications: This system aims to reduce costs in the long term but may face initial challenges in attracting a sufficient number of bidders, potentially affecting service availability.
Interesting Occurrence: During the meeting, there was a notable emphasis on inter-departmental collaboration, particularly between finance, education, and transport departments, highlighting a more unified approach to tackling the complex issue of school transport than seen in previous sessions. This collaborative effort was seen as a positive step towards more sustainable solutions.
Attendees
