Transcript

Bridson Rush-Conlin. And I'm a councillor, Ben Curtis. I'm a councillor in Clapham-Conlin, Averbot Ward. And as you heard, my name is David Robson. I'm the chair of the licensing subcommittee. I'm also a councillor over in Clapham town. I'll ask the officers to introduce themselves shortly, but before we start, I'll just go through some comments on the meeting. So, the meeting has been recorded and broadcast live via audio minutes. Recordings may be used for quality and training purposes. In the event that any technical issues require the meeting to be adjourned and it cannot be restarted within a few minutes, further updates will be posted on the council's X account, which is at LBL Democracy. To ensure that this meeting runs smoothly, only one individual will be allowed to speak at a time. If you've joined the meeting via Teams, which we all have this evening, please ensure your microphone is muted and when you're speaking, that your camera is switched on and that your name is clearly stated. Any person speaking must be permitted to finish what they're saying without interruption. If I request that an individual stops speaking, they should do so immediately. Interruptions may result in you being disconnected from the meeting. Members of the public, although I don't think present tonight, are welcome to record or tweet the public proceedings of the meeting. Please note, the subcommittee will notify the interested parties of its decisions on each application within five working days. Before we go any further, I just would like to ask the council officers to introduce themselves. If we can go over to you first, Kaya. Good evening, everybody. My name is Kaya Small. I'm a Democratic Service Officer and I'll be taking the minutes for this evening. And then over to the licensing team. Alphabetical order, I'll go with Justin first. Good evening, sir. Good evening. My name is Justin Atkinson. I'm the licensing officer. Lambeth Council. Thanks, Justin. Pam, I understand you're having a bit of tech issues. Yes, my camera doesn't seem to want to work in this in this meeting. My name's Pamela Riley. I'm the licensing officer and I'm the case officer for two of the cases today. Thanks, Pam. And finally, Selina. Hi there. I think I'm also having the same issue as Pam with the camera turning on in this meeting room. But good evening. I'm Suna Wiafi and I'm the legal advisor to the committee this evening. I think we've all had similar camera issues that include restarting the laptop for updates and stuff. So there must be a rather poorly timed Lambeth Council software update. So apologies. But I can assure you, Pam and Selina are very much part of the team here at Lambeth. I think that's everyone, although there is a democracy account as well. Is that just you, Kaya? Apologies, that's for the audio minutes. Lovely. Thank you. Declarations of interest. Do colleagues have declarations of interest on any of the three hearings tonight? No, John. I should just say I know one of them is within my ward, but I've not made a comment or filed any representations on it. So I don't believe that means it's a type of declaration of interest. Minutes of the previous meeting. Are the minutes of the previous meeting agreed? Agreed. Thank you very much. So in terms of the hearings tonight, we're going to go in the order of Estrella Bar first, followed by Rito's and then the Hope and Anchor. So without further ado, I believe, Pam, you're going to be introducing all three, but if you can introduce for us the Estrella Bar Tapas Restaurant, which is located on 111 South Lambeth Road, SW81UZ. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Chair. This is an application for a variation to the premises licence submitted by the premises licence holder, Demia Perez de la Costa Purview. The original application sought is seeking to authorise the extension of the following licensing activities, the operational hours for the sale of alcohol and recorded music for 24 hours, seven days a week, and the offer of the late the sale of late right refreshment from 2300 to 5am 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The licensing authority and the police licensing unit engaged in discussions with the licensee, which resulted in an agreement made by the licensee to make the following amendments to the application. The activity hours were amended as follows to 8am to 0300 hours all week for recorded music and the sale of alcohol and 2300 hours to 3am all week for late night refreshment. Additionally, Additionally, during the meeting, the premises licence holder also proposed the agreed to propose conditions set forth by the licensing authority and the police licensing unit. The applicant is represented today by Michael Costa, who is the manager for the premises and attending on behalf of the of the objectors, is Justin Atkinson, who is the licensing officer and the responsible authority. Only one representation was received from the licensing authority. The application can be found on page 21 to 24 of the report. The agreed conditions can be found at pages 35 to 39 of the report. The representation can be found on page 41 to 44 of the report. A copy of the map and photos of the premise can be found on page 57 of the report. A copy of the map and photos of the premise can be found on page 57 of the report. Options open to the committee can be found on page 12, section 5.8 of the report. That concludes my introduction. Thanks very much, Pam. Colleagues, are there any questions for Pam at this stage? Not from me, Chad. Brilliant. Thanks very much. Mr. Costa, a good evening. Thanks very much for coming. Not too bad. Thank you very. Thanks very much for coming. You now have up to five minutes to address the licensing subcommittee. Well, just to tell you a little bit about the business. We're a family-run restaurant that's been here for just under 30 years. My sister is the primary licensing authority for the premises license. We. Discuss and were thinking of extending our alcohol license to try to capture a bit of a wider market of customers based on the fact of our experience on this road and a few other businesses that have. Later licenses until 2.30 or 3 in the morning. Seeing as we've never had any issues or objections from police or any record with police. We thought we'd be more suited to. To try this experience and not have any serious consequences. We discussed different objectives for the policy that we agreed on. I have the extra CCTV, the security, the door camera, everything that we were happy to comply with. And follow through with. To hopefully meet the criteria and go ahead with this. Extended license. Um, very much. I think that's about it. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Costa. I'm sure there's enough that you want to write at this stage. Otherwise we'll go to questions from the committee. Uh, nothing really because we were doing this as a small family thing. We're not, I didn't hire an agent, uh, to save on some costs. This was more for us as a trial to increase our business. Uh. If I may interject, it might be useful for the committee. If we could just hear a little bit more about the business model. I mean, pretending that we don't know anything about it. We've not seen it, you know. Yeah. And maybe what you would maybe want to do with the added hours and such. Well, uh, it's a Portuguese restaurant, uh, with a cafe and a bar area. Uh, once I've learned abroad, we. Uh, originally considered this idea of extending our late hours. Cause we applied for a tense earlier this year for an event for the, the local gallery next door that wanted to do a late night. Drinking and eating event for the host. Uh, the invitees from the gallery. And we realized that there was some potential on maybe extending our hours and serving such a broader amount of people. Uh, our model would be more as a relaxed atmosphere to be able to eat, drink, converse. Converse is not going to be loud music or live music. Uh, just maybe ambient music for the space. We will be serving food, uh, more typical Portuguese food that you would get like tapas. Uh, not a heavy extent, like our full menu for the day, but it will be a more reduced menu. Things that we can complete later at night to not have too many issues with extraction on. Or making any noise with the extraction fan to reduce the noise that we can lower the, the speed of the fan. Um, and the policy would be following mostly people sitting down and consuming food with their drink. Maybe watch any late game sports that might be abroad that might be on and having just a general relaxed atmosphere. Uh, not necessarily a nightclub or a bar bar where just people drinking. But sports possibly taken a bit of a role. Yeah, we might could potentially have sports depending on late night games for like Brazilian. The copper leader and stuff that plays at different hours to to the UK hours. Brilliant, thank you. Um, unless there's anything to add, I'll throw open to the committee who would like to jump in first. Um, I'm happy to kick off, Councillor Gardner's up to you. Oh, okay. I'll just leap in with some very simple ones. Now, um, after when you submitted the application, you spoke to licensing and you agreed to reduce the hours from five till three. You've accepted all their conditions, including the, um, the one the police had as well. Um. Do you have any problems with any of these conditions? I mean, some of them are quite onerous about CCTV and the SIA staff and training and all that. Are you fully geared up to be able to ensure you do actually comply with them all? Uh, with the CCTV, we've had CCTV for years because of licensing, but if they footage with the SIA door, SIA door staff, we actually have used companies before. Uh, more mainly for when we've had the World Cup and the Euro games where we actually have a very large substantial amount of people eating and drinking here. Uh, rules that we followed for the police, uh, and never had any issues with that, but we do have their contacts and can put them on the door. He, the only extra with the door security. We never used, uh, the CCTV body cameras, but as I was speaking to Dave Watson for the police, he said that that usually could be, uh, easily purchasable, purchasable through the SIA company, or I could either hire my own one. Um, so most of these conditions we already meet and have been meeting them for years, except for the SIA door security, which is the extra. Yeah. Okay. Thanks very much. Uh, that's all. That's all for you. Brilliant. Thank you. Councillor Curtis. Uh, yes. Sorry. Sorry to interject. Um, so thank you very much to you, Michael. It's really, really good to, to, to, to hear that. Um, if you could just sort of talk, I, I understand, uh, that the reasons for your application, it would just be useful to just talk about sound in particular. I think that's the one thing that kind of, uh, came out of your application. And I just wonder kind of more generally what your relationship previously, I understand you've not had any objections to this application. But what your relationship generally is with your neighbors, both your commercial neighbors and your kind of residential neighbors. Um, with our residential nature's neighbors, uh, so our building is quite unique. And the fact that it's a standalone building, we actually have no commercial next door neighbors. There's no building. The closest building to us is about two meters away alleyway. So there's no shared wall party walls that would, uh, interfere with anyone. So we have quite normal general walls with our residential above. There is only, uh, if I'm not wrong, 12, uh, tenants above. We know all of them and deal quite well with them. We are a point for, to receive their posts. So we receive their posts. We speak with them quite often in our actual cafe area and bar. Probably because of, uh, long time rules when people used to smoke in here before 2006. We actually have a false ceiling of about 80 centimeters to a meter high, uh, which has all the ventilation system in it. So there's actually a really big cushion between us and the first presidential's above us, uh, behind our building. There's again, there's no direct neighbors to our building. Our building is a kind of stand alone as in behind our building. There's another possibly about two, two and a half meter distance to the closest building. They have their own wall. We have our own no party walls where we actually keep our rubbish. Uh, it's the fire exit for the building for the kitchen. Um, so all we actually have is the 12 members of tenants above us. Uh, we have the large outside area, which means that even across the street is a couple of meters. A good couple of meters before any actual residents from those areas. Um, and the, the closest commercial business is the only one on our left, which is the gallery. Which we deal with them quite often and host lots of their, their after, uh, gallery events. Sure. And, and, and the, you've had no issues with the name. I mean, you know, there's kind of two issues when you deal with an application like this, right? You've got the, the noise of the, the, the building itself, which sounds like it's not an issue, but then you've also got the noise of patrons leaving. You know, um, passengers, not passengers, uh, customers kind of leaving the premises. If you've not had any issues with other neighbors in terms of customers leaving the premises, you know, regularly making lots of noise. Or is it that they're leaving and it's sort of a restaurant style atmosphere? So they're just leaving and going home in silence almost. Um, the, the latter option is mostly, mostly what happens, uh, cause the restaurant people aren't filing out in groups or large groups or drunk. Other than maybe when you have an occasional birthday party or event carry, but they leave by generally, generally not making any noise. Uh, the only issue we've had any, and we resolved immediately is we used to have our tables and chairs outside until midnight, uh, part of the tables and chairs licensing. Uh, and occasionally people outside seated outside could get a little bit more boisterous in their conversations. Uh, and especially in the summer where people are a bit until later and the neighbors actually have their windows open. That would be the only point of noise where it'd be directly to them and they would immediately just ask us to keep people quiet. And we always, since maybe I think the one time we were told by someone who I think was on the first floor and had the window open. If we could just keep the people outside a bit quieter, we always on top of maintaining that sort of noise. But our tables and chairs also now won't be outside until one of the conditions will be that we can only leave them out there until 11th. So that should stop that completely anyway. Okay. Could I just interject there as well, Councillor Curtis, just as I just think what, what's the capacity of the venue? Mr. Costa. Um, the cafe area. Seated is about 30 people. Yeah. Uh, the restaurant area seated is about 40 people. But to start, because we only want to see how well they start, we weren't actually going to be using the restaurant area. Just the cafe area. We can lock the doors between the areas so we can separate. I just would respectfully challenge, you know, if this is going to be maybe be a better sports atmosphere as well. I mean, I've never met mute sports fans leave somewhere if their team's won or has lost. So I just wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about what your plans for a dispersal policy would be if you'd had a lively sports event per se. Oh, well. Well. We've never had any issues with we're not like an actual sports sports bar people who. Yeah, I know per se, but you know, people get excited. They get, you know. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to be honest with you, the type of customers that we get that you watch sports in our bar is a more older karma generation that has their sort of drinks and slicing that little snacks on the bar and they don't really make much of a noise. But if that were to happen and we get younger crowds, then with the security, obviously, they would hopefully be able to control, maintain the people and maybe separate them and obviously not let them leave or linger outside the premises in groups. Which is, again, one of the conditions to make sure people believe in orderly fashion and not in massive power groups. Thank you. Okay. Councillor Curtis. I'll go back to you. That was perfect timing. I'll actually finish my round of questions. So that was fine on that front. The only other question that I'd probably have to say, Mr. Costa for me, and then I don't know if you have anything else, chaps, would be. Have you explored the possibility of a sound limiter just to ensure that is kind of any kind of sound at 2am or whatever is kind of kept under control with what's recommended from public health per se? Because I think it was one of the gaps for me during the actual conditions. And is that something you'd be willing to accept? Yeah, that shouldn't be an issue. I know that another premises here that's more like a bar has had to use a little device to control the decibels on the premises to maintain it at 80 decibels. I think for the sort of conditions. Yeah. Well, not a condition that they had, but something that they were advised to maintain so that they wouldn't have any issues going on with or police or reports or licensing. Yeah, we don't expect anything to happen in terms of really loudness, but we can always invest in something simple to let us know how the internal, is it more for the internal noise or the outside noise that you'd be more perfect with? Well, I think it's, it's kind of managing the internal noise and then therefore that that kind of manages everything. Yeah, it's more for more like sound systems, playing music, playing the sports and all that kind of business. Yeah. Well, we have the sound systems with the volume control. So yeah, with the limiter, you can make sure that those volumes are at that level. Brilliant. Thank you. Colleagues, was there anything else at this stage for Mr. Costa? There wasn't. I'd forgotten to ask the sound limiter question. So well remembered, Councillor Robson. No, that's, that, that was, that was all for me. Thank you. And thank you, Mr. Costa. So you, there might be something that comes up a little bit shortly, but for now, I think we then come over to any representations, which I think is under the licensing authority, which is under Mr. Atkinson. Thank you. Thank you chair and good evening all. My name is Justin Atkinson and I'm the responsible licensing authority officer. in relation to this application, representing the licensing authority under section 13 for the licensing at 2003 as amended under the police and social responsible responsibility act 2011. I, the licensing authority, have considered this application in full throughout the 28 day consultation period. And during that period, I engaged with the applicant and raise concerns relation to the hours they were seeking. As my colleague Pam mentioned, the hours they were initially seeking with a 24 hour license for both self alcohol consumption on and off and late night refreshments from 11pm till 5am and recording music 24-7. During the engagement with the applicant, the applicant made a consideration to reduce the hours to 3am from 8am to 3am Monday to Sunday for all activities and late night refreshments from 11pm till 3am. Further to this, taking into consideration the hours that were reduced, these hours will still be on the licensing policy recommended hours. Considering the location of the premises is situated on South Lampeth Road, I'm referring to Appendix 7 page 16 with a licensing policy. This road is classified as a local centre shopping parade. Appendix 5 page 51 with a policy recommends the following hours for such premises. Sunday to Thursday until 11pm and Friday to Saturday until midnight with no specific start times recommended. Taking into consideration there have been no complaints raised in relation to this premises over the last 12 months. I had also. Was able to propose conditions which I believe were proportionate, relevant and promote the four license objectives, which were all considered and accepted by the applicant. However, because the application still is seeking hours of lifestyle activities beyond policy, my representation still stands. Now referring to the application on page 21 of the report. I noticed that the application states that the music will be played at reasonable decibels to customers to enjoy no stage or loud music being played. The music will be more of a background setting. Now, if the committee was minded to grant this application, I would propose that a condition is to be added to the operational schedule where music will be played at a background level only. To continue to promote to the license objectives in particular for the prevention of public nuisance. At the moment, I think that's it for me. If you have any questions. Thank you, Justin. Adrian, Councillor Garda. Yes, Justin, you say the condition should say it should be kept at a, I can't quite remember the word, a low level. Background level. Background level. Background level. That's true. Councillor Robson was talking about sound delimited and that sort of thing. Are you are you saying your suggested condition just to keep it at a low enough level is adequate? So if. So the. Application and the business model that stipulated in the condition that's been proposed. Directs the premises to be more of a restaurant bar seeking late night hours. There is a condition in actual operational schedule where it states that alcohols to be served with food. So and it must be seated. So the licensing authority doesn't have concerns with regards to patrons standing and it being, and they've been vertical drinking because there's a condition that kind of bounds them to a restaurant type premises. Now, from my experience, I'm not an EHO, but I have obviously seen many conditions going through the committee and speaking with my colleagues. I believe it's proven to be difficult to set a limiter for a TV. It's more for like amplified music unless the TV is plugged into a sound system. It's just for a TV to be more challenging. Now, if say, for instance, I was the inspector based on the licensing and I did a visit and the music was deemed to be beyond background level. That could be a breach of condition, but a condition can be bound. So background level will still mean you can talk over it, but you still hear it. So it's just a consideration to put forward to committee. Thank you. Helpful. Very much. Cheers. Thank you for that, Councillor Gardner. And for your answer, Justin, was there anything from you, Councillor Curtis? There wasn't. Thank you. Just a clarification case from me, please, Justin. On page 17 on the background history, the comment from planning about basically whilst they haven't filed anything officially, that it could be something to do with them being in breach of condition four or something like that. If they were to go ahead with these hours, has that been resolved or is that? So I'm just reading now. So the planning regulations is separate to the licensing regulations. So reading this statement here, it does suggest that if the premises continues or is granted those hours he's seeking and he decides to operate, he will be breaching his planning regulations and would have to seek planning permission to line planning with the licensing hours if it was to be granted. So yes, you are right in saying that if he was able to operate beyond midnight through licensing, he'll be breaching his planning regulations under condition four. So that's something that would need amended in order to character. If the licensing was permitted to grant, for example, I just want to know what would the impact of that be then with regards to this planning condition? So Liz, do you want to step in? I think members should just focus on the licensing application. In terms of the planning permission, it would be for the applicant to make that application to the relevant department and make a decision on that about the extension of hours. Just because it was noted in the pack, I just thought it was important to clarify that. No, of course. All right. Brilliant. Thank you both for that. So no more questions, I don't think for Justin at this stage. Was there anything else that Mr. Costa that you would might be like to say in light of what you've heard before we go off for deliberation? Is there anything else that you'd maybe like to say for committee? At the moment, no, because this is for the licensing planning issue. I didn't actually see that message. I thought it was the same conditions for the licensing side. Obviously needed just to inform myself on what I need to do in terms of that. If this licensing goes ahead, I assumed it was the same policy conditioning. Other than that, everything I heard again sounds reasonable as long as I can keep the music to the background level, which I think is more the issue with the licensing, I guess, with neighbors. Other than that, yeah, whatever happens, I guess I'll just have to follow. If it goes ahead, I'll have to follow and make sure everything goes correctly as well as I can. Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, licensing planning are very much separate beasts. Yeah, but I just thought I'd just highlight. All right. Well, in that case, then councillors and Selina, should we go to fur? Please hold tight and we'll be back here in due course. Thank you. Thank you. Hi there. Thank you for waiting, Mr. Costa. I think Kai, have we got everyone in the room? Yes, councillor. Brilliant. Thank you. So members of the subcommittee have considered this variation application and listened to the representation, the applicant and the licensing authority. The subcommittee understood that the hours and the council's policy are not absolute and are intended as a guide for applicants, and that each application must be considered on its own merits and we've been satisfied that the later hours will not have a negative impact on the licensing objectives with the agreed conditions. As such, members have determined to grant the variation application with the agreed reduced hours and licensable activities and with the agreed conditions settled with licensing and the police. And with that, Mr. Costa, we say thank you very much for this evening. And if there's anything else you'd like to say, then we'll move on to the next item on the agenda. Perfect. Thank you very much for your time and the rest of your evening. I'll see you again later. Thanks very much. Thank you. Take care. Okay. Next up on the agenda this evening, we have Rittos. So is Mr. Mansour, is it Mansour? Yes, sir. Did I pronounce that correctly? Hi there. So, Pam, are you going to introduce this one before we then come over to the next item on? Brilliant. Thank you. Yes, I will. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. This is an application seeking the variation of the premises licence to offer late night refreshment to patrons to sit in the premises from 2300 hours to 3am, Friday and Saturday. Sunday to Thursday and from 2300 hours to 4am, Friday and Saturday. Seeking the premises currently offers late night refreshment from 2300 to 3am, seven days a week. The venue has been operating since the licence was first granted in June 2021 and has received no complaints or issues with their operating procedures. The applicants sought pre-app advice from the licensing authority prior to submitting their application. The pre-app report can be found at pages 87 to 96 of the report. There were two representations received against the application, one from the licensing authority and the other from the local councillor. In attendance for the licensing authority is Mr Justin Atkinson, the licensing officer. The councillor Bray, the councillor, local councillor, will not be in attendance at the hearing tonight. Additional proposed conditions were sent to the applicant and were agreed upon. A copy of those conditions were circulated to the councillors on committee today for clarification. The application application form can be found at page 65 to 71 of the report. Representations against the application can be found at page 73 to 76. A copy of the current premises licence can be found at page 77 to 85. This concludes my introduction. Are there any questions? None for me at this stage, Pam. Councillor Curtis Gardner indicated no. Not at this point. Thank you. Sorry, I should have also just stated in my introduction that Rittos is located on 16 Clapham High Street, London, SW47UT. And with that, we'll come over to Mr. I hope I'm saying it correctly. Mansour? Mansour? Mansour, yeah. Yes, sir. Mansour. You have up to five minutes to address the licensing subcommittee before we then take it over to colleagues for questions. Sure. So basically we located in 16 Clapham High Street and we've been granted the licence in 2021. We do like gourmet burgers and kind of grilled chicken. We never had any complaints or any issues regarding noise or light refreshment because we don't have any even, like we don't play music, we don't have alcohol over the premises. So we just, we got a limited seating area, like around 20 people maximum. And we do serve for takeaway as well. We, we, we, we applied for, to extend the hours just to, um, uh, to, to support our, uh, our income a little bit because, uh, for the current, uh, the past three years, we rely on more on takeaways and there is no margin for us because of, um, Uber eats and delivery would take a big percentage from our sales. So it doesn't allow us, uh, to have any kind of profit left over. That's why we are applying for, uh, for eating just to, uh, to have a bit of margin, um, from, from the walking customers. And we, we, we, we will, we agreed all the conditions, which, uh, um, we had the representation from the, we had two representation from the count, uh, from the council, uh, from Mr. Justin and Mrs. Linda, um, which, um, we, we, we agreed all of them regarding the SIA stuff. And, uh, uh, no alcohol, uh, drinks should be allowed on the premises. Uh, we, we can limit the number of orders after, uh, 12 o'clock. So all this, we, we, we, we agreed, uh, all these conditions and we submitted to the case officer. Um, and we applied as well for the, for like four or five tens in, uh, in December. We never had any issues about this for the same, uh, opening hours, which, um, uh, which we, we, like, that's why we, uh, we apply, we send this as a, to support our application as well. Yeah, that's it. Thank you very much. Um, I'm sure there's nothing else to add at this stage. Yep. Okay. Well, I'm happy to take it over to colleagues for questions who wants to, do you want to kick off this time, Councillor Curtis? Sure. Absolutely. Um, so I, my first question that I was gonna, gonna ask you, Mansoor was about, uh, why you've applied for the license, but, uh, for the license amendment, but you've, um, you've elevated that very well. Uh, so, so two questions. The first is. Sorry, hang on a sec, Councillor Curtis. I was just gonna say, Mr. Mansoor, could you put your camera back on, but you're back in the room. Thank you. Councillor Curtis, sorry to interrupt. Yeah, not a problem at all. Um, so the, the two questions I had sort of primarily, um, there's, there's been two, uh, representations against you. One from a local councillor and the other from the licensing authority here in Lambeth. Um, and I just wonder more generally what the relationship you have with your neighbours, both your commercial neighbours. Uh, so I think there's a proper premises to the, the kind of left hand side of you, um, but also with any residential neighbours that are nearby. And the second question, which I didn't quite get from the application was currently when, you know, obviously you, you operate with a sort of hatch for delivery riders. Um, and I just wonder where those delivery drivers congregating, are they inside the, your premises? Are they inside the door or are they waiting out on the street or in the, in the street nearby? So just those two questions would be really useful. Uh, right. So regarding the relationship between the neighbours, we never had any issues with the neighbours because our ventilation, we always maintain it every six months. We make sure that we're using even the proper fan, which doesn't generate any noise because that, that's the main issue. Uh, on, on, on, on our right hand side, there is no neighbours because it's just the railway and all this road, there is no residential. We have like, um, I think physiotherapy, uh, next to us and there is no one living there. So all the motorbikes, they, they park there, which is a good point. And even our neighbours upstairs, they don't have windows on this road. So it doesn't affect them at all. Um, but regarding the commercial, we never had an issue with the commercial as well. Um, and we've been trading for three years. We never had any issue and we always have a good relationship between them and we touch base if anything. All of us know, so they never, they never complained or anything. Sure. Okay. And, and the, and the point about where the delivery drivers are currently congregating, are they inside the premises? Yeah, according to the, the, the previous conditions, we, we, we agreed to, to make a hatch in the window and we do have a hatch. Um, but now we, according to the new conditions, we agreed that we can keep them inside the premises so we can lower the noise level. Uh, we're happy to do this as well because once we get this granted, the eating, then we can allow the drivers to sit in, to wait inside the premises and collect the orders. So you don't need to wait outside. Sure. And you have any, and you haven't had any problems with drivers waiting outside the premises previously? Never. Never, never. Because they, they park the, the motor parks on, on Gowden Road, which is next to us. And we never had any issues. No. Okay. Thank you very much. Those are my questions, councillor, councillor Robson. Uh, I'll hold off if councillor Gardner wants to come in first. Yeah. I guess the main reason you're asking for the variation is for the late night refreshments. That means people sitting inside being served. Can you tell us the experience you've had of serving people inside and whether any of it is late night? In other words, uh, during all those tens that you had, were people sitting inside and being served then? Yes, sir. Yeah. We had, we had people sitting inside the New Year's Eve. And, uh, on the 14th we had, we had a lot of people sitting inside, which we see making a big difference in our income. So we have like, in the late hours is like, um, 20 to 30% of the sales because mainly the people, they start to come after 11, after they finish clapping, uh, because they, they come and sit and eat and eat in our restaurant. And, um, I would say the, the, the, the time for the, the eating is from five to 10 minutes. They don't really stay where they can. We don't have kind of entertainments like no music or anything. So they just and eat and go. And if we have this inside as well, if the people eating inside that will lower, uh, any kind of, uh, littering outside or any, any kind of, so we can manage that as well. We have to even to keep an eye on the, on the street in front of us. So we'll make sure that is almost clean. Right. So there's no difference really, uh, between what you're asking for and what you were doing during the 10s. Is that right? No, of course. When we had the 10s, it make a big difference because... Yeah, no, I understand that. What I mean is, if we grant this, uh, variation, which allows you to do the late night refreshments, will what you will be doing be any kind of, what you were doing be any different from what you were doing during the 10s? Yes. People inside paying money and giving you some sort of return. Yes, we're gonna put on SIA, uh, security. Uh, we, we, we, we accepted all the conditions for the CTV. We, we have, we're going to have an incident book, uh, all the, all the delivery drivers will be waiting inside. And we couldn't do all of this in the 10s because there was not a big timing. But that's what we're gonna apply according to the accepted condition we, we agreed on. Right. And the, uh, additional condition imposed because of, uh, the issues that Councillor Bray raised, you've accepted that as well? Yes. Thank you. I'll do that. All of them. Thank you. Thank you colleagues. Um, just something that just stood out for me there. Um, when you mentioned about littering and I, I mean, I'd hope that, I mean, what is your litter? Um, how are you managing rubbish at the minute, especially with litter outside? Because I know that is a, an issue with, uh, takeaways on the high street. Are you saying that you're not already managing the litter of people that dump on the street outside already? Yeah, I'm saying if, if, if we have the, the, the license for eating so that people, they will, they will eat inside. They wouldn't eat for takeaway. So if they eat inside, they will throw the rubbish inside the shop so we can manage it. But my question is why aren't you doing that outside the shop if they drop your rubbish already? Yeah. If they drop it outside the shop, we're going to remove it. If this is from, from us, we, we don't mind to remove it. We're going to keep an eye on the street as well. So it will be our own responsibility. Because obviously it's in a very, that location, it's quite a nasty little road really, isn't it? And that kind of junction as, as it kind of swifts onto gouging and such, that kind of turning, it can be quite. So it's just a kind of, I'd like to hear a little bit more about the kind of dispersal policy if we may, just because it obviously can get very busy next door and the pavement gets blocked. So I suppose, how will you manage, you know, people coming into your premises after they've finished maybe next door and then ensuring that people don't kind of split out into the middle of the road per se? So, we, we can just, I can hire someone from the staff just to keep, make sure that always the, the, the, the, the, the area which is in front of my shop is clear. We don't have any kind of rubbish from our customer in, in, in front of us. That's all what we can do. So to keep an eye all the time from, from that time at night, that someone from the staff member to, to, to, to be responsible for the area to always like remove any littering which. Yeah, I don't mean, I don't mean just litter though. I mean, I mean, in terms of, I mean, it could be that we maybe would, we would propose a, a condition that goes in about littering as well. If you might be willing to accept that. Yeah, I'm happy to accept that. But I think my question there was specifically just around managing people where it's a bit popular on that, you know, drunken people basically on a, on a corner, you know? I mean, obviously that's going to be the SIA would probably, I'm just asking if you're kind of aware of how populated it gets on that corner, basically. Just, we're going to hire an SIA and that will be their job to make sure that the, there is no, any drunk people making any issues inside our shop. And we're trying to minimize that, that as much as we can from, from the SIA person. So we're going to hire someone to, in these hours. And we're happy to accept that as well. Great. I don't think there was anything else for me at the minute. I think, I know you said that you would be agreeable to an added condition about littering and managing street waste. Because I think, just when you kind of were mentioned there with Councillor Curtis about neighbours, there is a lot of neighbours that obviously just live across the road as well. You know, so it's, that kind of whole area is quite active. It's not a very sleepy part of the high street. It's quite a buzzing part of the high street. So I think we were just emphasizing that we've got some sort of confidence that, you know, if these hours were to be expanded, about managing what kind of comes with that basically. Yeah, we are happy to any conditions. If you see, if you want to propose any conditions, we're happy to, to go, to accept it. Just a quick one, Councillor, apologies. Did the licensing officer, was the licensing officer able to get her recommendations up before we started? Who, sorry? Pam? Sorry? Were you able to, were you able to do your application before the application started? What application? Was she able to start the meeting off and say what we're here for? Because I think we went right into the applicants. No, no, Pam, Pam did her introduction. Did? Okay, fantastic. Sorry, apologies. Thank you. Yep, very much. Apologies about that. Yep. Okay. So on that note, if there's no further questions at this moment from colleagues, I think we can bring in Justin, who I believe is going to be speaking on behalf of the licensing authority. Thank you chair. Thank you all. Yes, my name is Justin Atkinson and I am representing the responsible authority in relation to the licensing team under section 13 part 4 of the licensing act 2003 as amended under the police and social responsibility act 2011. The licensing, the licensing authority had considered this application in full and in doing so have submitted representation as the hours they are seeking is beyond the licensing policy. Having reviewed the application when it was initially submitted, the application did not contain any details relating to the operational schedule to continue to promote the licensing objectives. Throughout the consultation, contact took place, but it wasn't until after the end of consultation when I submitted my representation that the applicant submitted the agreed conditions, which was initially proposed in the pre-application advice by Lambeth Council. Now the conditions that were proposed by the licensing authority were to, where the aim was to promote the four licensing objectives, in particular prevention of public nuisance and prevention of criminal disorder and public safety. The Lambeth licensing team is mindful that the conditions and the hours currently operating at the premises promote the licensing objectives, but the hours are currently also outside policy. However, however, the hours that I seek in the application is an additional hour beyond license beyond the current application. So beyond the current licensing. So beyond the current licensing. So beyond the current licensing. So beyond the current license to have in place. So therefore, what the applicant is seeking is an additional hour on Friday and Saturday and also to eat in. Therefore, the conditions that were proposed related to SIA on Fridays and Saturdays beyond 11pm until closing time. And also an additional condition where we refer to the premises to provide a designated safe space within an establishment for patrons and pedestrians who may require it. This space shall be easily accessible offering an environment for individuals to wait and seek assistance. The space space shall be monitored by staff during operational hours to ensure the safety and wellbeing of all individuals using the area. Using the area. And which was agreed by the applicant. And now the hours that are recommended within our licensing policy states that within Appendix 5, page 47, this premise is located as the district center and the hours recommended in the policy for takeaways and restaurants in this location is Sunday to Thursday until midnight and Friday and Saturday until 1am. And we have had extensive engagement since the end of consultation with myself and the applicant. And in doing so, the licensing authority is satisfied that where the applicant agreed to the conditions that he is. Demonstrating is willing to promote the licensing objectives. However, because the hours sought after is beyond licensing policy, our representation stands. Thanks, Justin. Before I just refer to colleagues, can I just ask them just for utter clarification, if the committee were to grant this application, it would mean that the applicant is forfeiting his 3am takeaway license. So is that a question for me chair? Yeah. So if he, if he's going till 1am in person, therefore the 3am takeaway doesn't happen anymore. Hmm? Is that correct? No. I mean, if, if, let me have a look at the application, from my understanding, he wanted on and off sales. So he would mean that he was still. So off-site would close at those times, but yeah, takeaway would continue. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But thank you. I just. So yeah. So currently, yeah. So currently he has until 3am, but he closes to them. There's no indoor, um, up until after 11pm, but he has takeaway only until 3am. Yeah. Yeah. And his application is seeking to operate indoors and outdoors until 3am, Sunday to Thursday and Friday until 4am. Okay. Thank you. Yes. Colleagues. Yeah. Yeah. First of all, for the avoidance of doubt, um, you did say in your original report on page 74, paragraph 7, an operation schedule should help. Are you saying that the conditions as accepted proposed by you and accepted are in fact fulfilling that requirement of producing an operation schedule? Yes or no. Yeah. So yeah, no, I'm just unmuting. Yes. That's correct. Yeah. So that is, I mean, because he accepted all the conditions, you are now accepting that he's got an operation schedule. Correct. Yeah. Oh, good. Yes. That was just clarification. The second question is, um, uh, the chair was concerned about, um, litter outside. Are you happy that, um, uh, condition 14, the extra measure? Uh, the extra measures brought in because of Councillor Bray's complaint addresses that, or is it too weak? Is the area in front of the premises will be swept? Any litter which belongs to the business will be removed and stored inside the refuse storage. Is that strong enough to, um, make sure it's clear outside? Um, I know, um, in the past, um, there is a specific, uh, act that focus on litter and waste and that's under the environmental protection act. But I'm also mindful that licensing act could also promote provincial public nuisance by conditioning some form of waste management in regards to clearing litter now. Um. Yes, I believe it could be a proportionate condition that can be considered. Um, however, there are other means and ways to enforce, um, any forms of, uh, waste or discard of litter, um, under the requirements of environmental protection act. Um, so yeah, I just, I believe, I mean, Selena, what would you say in that one? Sorry. I mean, I think we've, I think the applicant was agreeable to an additional condition, which I think I would put to him, which I think would basically read. It's standard condition LMC 96 that during the hours of operation of the premises, the license holder shall ensure sufficient measures are in place to remove and prevent litter or waste arising or accumulating from customers in the area immediately outside the premises. And that this area should be swept and or washed and litter and sweepings collected and stored in accordance with the approved refuse storage raiments by closer business. Okay. Um, I guess it's, it's, it's gonna be, it might be difficult to enforce under license and that. Um, so it's something that could be considered, but I'm just looking at it from an enforcement perspective. Is it, is it achievable possibly? Is it enforceable? Um, I mean, I think if we've used it before and the applicant is agreeable to it. And that's, that's it. Yeah. If you have one, I'll press ahead with that one. That's fine. Um, was there any other kind of questions or comments, comments at this stage? Not from me. Um, bear with me a sec. Sorry. Um, were there any, if the applicant would like to address the committee again as in response to anything that you've kind of seen or heard, so you would be agree agreeable to that kind of additional condition that we've been raised by the committee with regards to litter? Yes. Is there anything else that you'd kind of like to say towards the committee in light of what you've heard before we go for a deliberation? No, I did, uh, demonstrate everything. Uh, we, we happy to always keep, um, manageable and make sure that there is no littering and regarding all the conditions we agreed to it. So. Okay. Well, without further ado then, and, uh, Mr. Bowen, I'll give you a heads up. Uh, you'll be, uh, you'll be up shortly. Uh, so we'll go in the other room to deliberate and we will be back in due course. Of course. Thank you. Hi everybody. Thank you for bearing with us. Kai, could you just confirm we've got everyone back in the room for me, please? You now do have councilor. Excellent. Thank you. Um, okay. Mr. Mansour, thank you for bearing with us. So the decision is as follows. Members of the subcommittee have considered this application and listened to the representations of the applicant and the licensing objectives and have determined to grant the variation application as sought within the proposed operating schedule and all conditions offered by and agreed with the applicant. The licensing authority and councillor Linda brave. The subcommittee will also add a further condition onto the license. Namely, during the hours of operation of the premises, the license holder shall ensure sufficient measures are in place to remove and prevent litter or waste arising or acute accumulating. I don't know why I can't say that word for customers in the area immediately outside the premises and that this area shall be swept and or washed and litter and sweepings collected and stored in accordance with the approved refuse storage arrangements by close of business. The subcommittee was satisfied that the conditions addressed the concerns of the licensing authority and the local councillor and will assist in promoting and upholding the licensing objectives. So, Mr. Mansour, thank you very much. You don't need to stay in for the rest of the meeting, but thank you for your time this evening. Thank you. Thank you for everyone. Thank you. Good night. Thank you. Good night. And so we turn to our final hearing of the evening, which is item 4C on the agenda for the Hope and Anchor located at 123 Acre Lane SW25UA. And I can see that Mr. Bowen has turned his camera on and there's multiple people that have popped up alongside him. Good evening to you all. I'm going to throw over to Pam to introduce this application and then we'll come over to you, Mr. Bowen, for five minutes to address the licensing subcommittee. Pam. Okay, thank you chair. This application is for a variation at the Hope and Anchor located at 123 Acre Lane SW25UA. It has been submitted by Popplestone Allen solicitors on behalf of Young & Co's Brewery PLC. The original application requested authorisation to modify only the ground and first floor plans. Additionally, the applicant sought to remove condition 32 under annex 2, which states the garden must be closed at 11pm, seven days a week. All other licensable activities permitted, permitted hours, opening hours and conditions will remain the same. The licensing authority was contacted by Popplestone Allen, who advised that the applicant wants to amend the variation application as follows. To amend the application to remove the request to remove condition 32, which limits the garden until 2300 hours. That condition will therefore remain the same. The amend and to amend the application by removing condition 20, which allows the garden to stay open until 2320. Attending on behalf of the applicant is James Anderson for Popplestone Allen. Also in attendance is Young & Co's Breweries PLC, Tom Bowen, Operations Director, and Zach Lachelle, General Manager and DPS. On behalf of the objectors, we have a resident, Isabel, whose representation can be found on page 137 to 138 of the report. 17 representations were received from residents objecting to the application and following the circulation of the proposed amendments to the application via email from Popplestone Allen. two of the objectors have now withdrawn their representation, two of the objectors have now withdrawn their representations. Their representations can be found on pages 130 to 133 and 136 of the report. The application application can be found on page 114 to 123 of the report. The proposed amendments can be found on 125 to 126 of the report. Representations can be found on page 127 to 154 of the report. A copy of the map and photos of the premises can be found on page 173 of the report. Options open to the committee can be found on page 12 under section 5.8 of the report. That concludes my introduction. Thank you Pam. Colleagues, are there any questions for Pam at this stage? Not from me, Chair. None. Thank you. So apologies. So I believe I'm going to come over to Mr Anderson. Is that correct? Yes, Chair. That's correct. Thank you. Thank you. I've got Tom. He's the operations director to my left and Zach. He's the general manager DPS to my right. And just following on from Pam's helpful introduction. This is an application for a bar in the garden. It's really as simple as that. The premises has an external area, quite a substantial one, but that is not part of the licensed premises. There is a shack, a unit which has historically traded as a bar and which also sells soft drinks, which youngs have inherited. So they come before you today, Chairman and members of the committee to seek permission to use that bar to sell alcohol. Originally, as Pam said, youngs wanted to get rid of the difference between the two conditions. So to remove the 11 o'clock, but they've since decided to retain the 11 o'clock and remove the 1120. So the 1120 closure of the garden is already on the license and youngs are essentially saying to you today that they're happy to restrict that to 11pm, which is what they've operated to historically. So just by my background, youngs have closed the pub last year and invested a considerable amount of money in improving it over a million pounds. In fact, slightly redirecting the business. The business has traded with a younger crowd with more entertainment and youngs are, as you probably know, they have a number of pubs in in Lambeth. They are more of a traditional pub operator. And so they wanted to change the business to make it more traditional to increase the amount of food that sold to attract an older clientele. And there are there are premium operators so that the cheapest pint you can get at the pub is £6.35. So that they have been reasonably successful in doing that. They're also proposing to put a roof on the garden. This isn't part of the application because the garden area is not itself licensed. It's only the bar we seek permission from you today to sell alcohol, but they are looking to do that. They haven't paid the planning permission to do that and those works are ongoing. Youngs think that that would be a benefit to local residents because it will act. The roof will act to reduce light pollution and there has been one complaint made to Zach about that and also to people under the roof canopy to reduce any noise. But we think that the installation and the licensing of the bar will assist in relation to the operation of the external area. It is an additional point of sale at the moment. Customers in the garden have to bring their own drinks or they order via an app. There's a number of huts in the garden, so drinks are brought to them. But if the bar could be used, then of course, customers can obtain their drinks from the garden. without going into the into the premises, which will improve the customer experience and also cut out sort of blockages of people going in and out. And also there's an element, an extra element of supervision in the garden. Can I finally finish by saying that Youngs have have have read the representations? There's only been a couple of issues raised with that one, the light pollution I've referred to and one when music was left on. But they are going to look to have. Meetings with residents probably twice a year. Going forward, but they don't operate with any ongoing. Complaints made either to the Council or to the premises. So we are confident that if you're minded to grant the application. It will simply firstly reduce. The use of the external area, possibly from 1120 to 11. So that we think is good and promotes the licensing objectives. And secondly, provide a point of sale in the garden, which has historically been used. Which we think will be a benefit to customer use and also supervision. So the application, Chairman, members of the committee, I think is is as simple as that. Thank you. Do you want to add anything at this stage, Tom? No. That's the application, Chairman. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Anderson, indeed, for sticking to time. Colleagues, who would like to take the lead of questioning? Councillor Gardner, you look eager to get going. I'm going to come to you first. Yes, I'm eager to leap in. I'm proud to be able to say I understood all the stuff about Condition 20 and Condition 32. And I understand you're asking for the licensing for the hat that already exists. What I didn't quite understand was what you're doing on. You talked about a change of layout on the ground and first floor or something. I don't think I saw what you were doing there and how relevant it was, partly because the map was too small. So that's my first question. What are you doing there? The second one is nothing to do with your licensure application because nowhere do you mention, I think, you're putting a roof on the garden. But I think I've got a lot of questions about that because all the complaints that there are, all 17 of them, all relate to noise coming from the garden. And sorry, Councillor Gardner, just to augment that point specifically. You must forgive me. I thought there already was a roof. There's at least a sort of tarpaulin that goes over the back of the garden. At least that's what I can see on Google Maps and I have been to the pub once upon a time about five or six years ago. But I thought it's to make a permanent structure or is it just to reinforce the tent or I don't know how you describe it. The material. So dealing with the roof point first, because that's raised by both of you, councillors. So yes, there was a tarpaulin that there will now be a permanent roof. It will be a retractable roof, essentially covering most of the length of the garden, which can be retracted dependent on the weather. So that's not something that we need the permission of the licensing committee for because the external area is not licensed. If it was licensed, it's a permanent structure and we would need both planning, which we do have without limit and licensing. But Young's inherited the license. There's no there's no slight of hand involved in not licensing the external area. It's just the way that Young's inherited the garden. There's no point in licensing the garden because there's no licensable activities out there other than consumption of alcohol. But we do have to license the bar because that is a point of sale for which your permission is required. So that I think is the roof. We think the roof it's a bit difficult for you members. Forgive me because the garden is therefore not licensed. And so it's really only as a matter of law, whether you are happy with the bar selling alcohol or not. We're not seeking to change the garden only by reducing, in fact, the length of time which we can open it because your colleagues many years ago thought that 1120 was appropriate as well as 11. And now we're choosing or inviting you to impose the earlier time. So that will be, I think, a bonus. Councillor Gardner, your second question. It relates is it's just a small change to the first floor bar. So the ground floor means the bar in the garden. There's no change to the ground floor. Oh, that's that right. So the premises have been changed because as part of the investment that there has been quite a bit of work done to make the premises more pubbing downstairs. The pub was a little bit. I don't like to use the word grossy, but I think that may be appropriate now. It wouldn't count quite nice and there was a minor. There was a minor variation granted giving us permission to do that. Obviously we come before you today because an outside bar is a full variation and not a minor variation in terms of the outside area. Yes, I mean, it is a large area. It's busy. It's successful. There are huts, a number of huts around the perimeter which can be bought and which do themselves, we would say, provide natural noise attenuation because there's significant wooden huts. The bit in the middle is not covered by anything permanent and that's the bit that will be covered by the by the roof structure. So we think that if you are minded to grab the application, the residents will get an earlier time. A bar which provides better supervision and not by permission from yourselves, but your planning colleagues, a structure which will aid in relation to any light and noise potential pollution. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Curtis, do you want to chip in? Yeah, absolutely. I'm just just picking up on the point. I mean, obviously having 17 representations relatively high number for 15 now that two have been withdrew. I should clarify. I'm sorry, do excuse me, Chair 15, which is relatively high for an application like this. And I'm just interested in your introduction when you said that there was a sort of plan or that's that's being fleshed out at the moment to meet with residents every six months. So my question really is, have you done any outreach with the representations on this application specifically thus far? And could you just talk a little bit more about how you plan to reach out with residents and meet with them six monthly and you know what, if any changes you would ever make in the event that residents are, you know, similarly unhappy to where they are currently in six months or years time? So I think Councillor Curtis is putting it into, into context. So there's, there's no, there's nothing from any responsible authorities. There's no ongoing noise complaints to you. Next door to us is it is a very extensive block of flats, probably contains hundreds of people. I'm guessing that's what exactly so. In relatively small proportion of those residents have made representations reading through the representations. Some of them are content that there are complaints, but some are saying we're happy with or we're content with 11. We just don't want it any later, so we have effectively responded to that by reducing it effect to 11 and then some are. Some have. Without wishing to be critical, have misunderstood the application either because they think we're extending the garden beyond what we have, or in some way we're extending our hours of operations. And several of them referred to trade and go on one o'clock, for example. So unfortunately in this business, when you put a blue notice up, sometimes it is slightly disinterpreted in terms, in terms of. Yes, but but but but youngs have a lot of pubs next to people and they don't. It's important for them that you know the pub is part of the community. It's important for them to to have good relationships with with with neighbors. So if there were any specific complaints about noise, which they have not been to my knowledge, just the light and the music that was left on, they would respond to that. But it's a new team in place. Zach is here since there's been here since October. Tom is new ops director and a new ops manager. So as the as the the pub is something of having something of a fresh start in terms of the redirection I referred to in my opening remarks, we do think it appropriate to have a meeting with the residents to see, you know, whether they have any concerns and to to have a social community style meeting with them. Sure. OK, I'm I'm I'm content with that chair. So no further questions from from myself. I suppose just because you mentioned Mr Anderson, the blue notice, I just think for the sake of the minutes and I'll come to Pam as well to double confirm this. I think some of the representations maybe mentioned that they didn't see the notice or this was kind of sprung upon them. Can you just clarify that the the blue sign was obviously placed in a notable position for the full 21 days? 28 days. 28 days. 28 days. Yep. Yeah. Yes, it was. It was on display and I have photographic evidence of the notice has been on display. Brilliant. Thank you Pam. Was any of the questions from colleagues at this stage before we move to interested parties? Not good mate. Thank you. And thank you Isabel for bearing with us. I know you are here as a representative from those who made representations this evening. So just to clarify, I understand your rep is on page 138, 137 to 138. So you can only speak with regards to what you have filed within your representation and not to kind of go off script for that, but you have basically up to three minutes. Great. Thanks very much. Is that okay if I go ahead now? Yes, please. Yep. Great. And I'm afraid I don't have the paper bundle so I'm not, I'm not clear about the page numbers. I'm very grateful for having this hearing just to run through a couple of the matters that have been raised and the complaint or the representation that I made. Obviously, insofar as the 1120 to the 11 o'clock point is concerned, I totally accept that. No objection in relation to moving that forward and clarifying the contradiction between those two elements of the licensing in relation to the premises. And what I will say in relation to the bar in the garden. Now, it has not been abundantly clear from the blue notice or indeed the email correspondence that we've received since that basically the purpose of this application is to sell alcohol in the bar in the garden. And it wouldn't have been difficult for that to have been made more express in the various communication. Not that there have been many, but in the communications since people made their representations. In relation to that aspect of the application. I've heard what the applicants have said, but in effect, what this is going to do is drive people out of the pub and into the garden and thereby create much more noise than there already is in the garden. So there's already a lot of noise in the garden. So there's already a lot of noise in the garden and that closes at 11. If there's going to be no reason for any patrons to go back into the pub to buy a drink. There aren't during the summer months where this is obviously more of an issue, there aren't going to be people in the pub at all. They're all going to be outside because they don't need to go back into the building to purchase their beverages. And so I think that that aspect of the application is going to increase noise substantially for the residents, even in the period up until 11. And that is, I would respectfully say, going to be detrimental to the people living in the building. I'd also just like to pick up on the 15 representations points. It is a big block of flats, but there's only about, I'd say, 45 to 50 flats in the building. So you've got 30% of residents in the window of time that we were given to make representations. I don't think that's a negligible amount and I would regard that as quite a substantial amount of representations, bearing in mind the other side of the property is a commercial unit. So obviously the only people within earshot are the block of flats in which I live, which is the substantial block of flats next to the garden. In relation to the retractable roof, obviously, we don't know particularly how that's going to operate and how that will attenuate or potentially increase the noise. Because, of course, if it's retractable when it's sunny, it's going to be backwards. And that's going to be another reason why they will be just driving more people into the garden. Now, I understand it's a big space and they want to generate an income and use that space, but it's already full all of the time during the summer months. It's already busy and people are clearly attending the pub and able to walk inside to buy their drinks if you're forcing them out or effectively driving them outside and keeping them outside because they can get their alcohol at the bar outside. So I really would submit that that is going to increase the noise substantially and I would strongly object to that. I would also invite the committee to consider if in so far as it is entertaining, granting the application to consider bringing in a time limit on the time at which alcohol can be served in the garden. So it's it's not a daytime issue. It's a nighttime noise issue. And if the patrons have absolutely no reason to go inside, that garden is going to become more and more noisy. And I think 11 o'clock is already late. I have a small child and I can hear the noise at night and during the summer. And that's very irritating. OK, thanks, Isabel. I was going to say I love to allow you just to go over a little bit on that. Sorry about that. No, no, no. It's OK. I just thought as you're the only rep here, I thought it was important to let you kind of say we have to be strict and let people speak to us to what they felt the representations. Colleagues, do you have any questions to Isabel, the stage Adrian? You do. Yeah. Hang on. Let me have it in front of me. Yeah, I mean, I'm not quite sure what my question is, because the bold bits in your statement is I strongly object to the proposed variation to bring it continuation beyond the 11pm. Well, they've withdrawn the 11.20 and all that, so it would only go on till 11. So theoretically, your complaint doesn't stand. But what in fact you're saying now, which isn't even what you've written is by granting the licence, you'll have more noise in the garden up till 11. That's what you said, isn't it? So your objection, which I'm sure we'll consider. That isn't actually what anybody's complained about previously. I mean, almost all these 17 were saying up to 11 was bad enough, but beyond would be unacceptable and it's not going to be beyond. So we'll have to consider that somehow. Could I just make a representation in relation to that? You can't make a representation in addition. Sorry, can I respond to that clearly? If you can hold tight a moment because I'll see if Councillor Curtis has something to chip in. No, the question I have was actually on similar lines to Councillor Gordon, so yeah. Sure. You can respond to that, Isabel, and then we'll bring it back to. Thanks. So just to contextualise your question and my response. Prior to the Blue Notice going up on the building, there was no communication whatsoever about this application with the residents. That is not withstanding the fact that in the months leading up to this, there has been a line of communication between the residents and the pub because I think they want to use a fire exit through our garden. And during none of that negotiation and liaison was any of this made clear. When the Blue Notice went up, a message was sent around the building, which I think, frankly, it's clear to me, misinterpreted the substance of what the application was going to do and focus solely on the time issue. And indeed seems to have, as Mr. Bowen, I believe, said, misinterpreted it quite severely because there was a consider that people were worried it was going to go on much later than 1120. So that's why the representations are all directed at that. The application itself and the communications that I have personally received do not make it clear at all that really the substance of this application is to sell alcohol in the garden. And if that had been made a lot clearer, people no doubt would have addressed that more substantially. I appreciate you have rules about the way that these hearings work and you need to use written representations. But it has not been made sufficiently clear in my respectful submission by the applicants what they were actually applying for. And in those circumstances, you've effectively got a slightly balanced picture. OK, I think I think, you know, I think we have to take that the application is as published and we certainly can't. I mean, we've allowed you to speak there to that matter there, Isabel, but I don't think we could. I don't think committee can be can allow that to be considered when we're going to be deliberating, basically. Apologies, but I thought it was only fair as you're the only rep here to be able to have to be able to have a question to be able to respond. Before going back to the applicant, I just there's no other interested parties in the on the call, I understand, but just want that double confirmed. Thank you. Mr Anderson, giving, I suppose, in light of what you maybe heard from colleagues and in line with Isabel's kind of comments there, I suppose only fair to give you right of reply. Yes, Chairman, thank you and respectfully note what Isabel says, and it may be that the blue notice wasn't clear. I don't have a copy in front of me, but my response on page 125 of the bundle is clear. The proposal is effectively a license for the sale of alcohol, a bar surgery in the external area. There is no change to the lights back through this hours of operation. There are some changes to propose in the garden, but he's not part of the application. In fact, the bar is existing, but naturally needs to be licensed to sell alcohol and hence the application. So respectfully, members of the committee that that that is very clear and that was an email that was sent to local residents. I don't know whether Isabel received it or not, but that's what we sent to the council. And my understanding is that Pam sent that. But the other point I'd just like to address briefly is from an operational point of view, I entirely take on board Isabel's contention about the garden. But the bar will not make the garden busier. That's not the purpose of it. The garden is busy as Isabel has identified. It's just a point of sale. There won't be any if people have can't get their alcohol from the bar and have to go into the premises. I think it's arguable whether that would cause less noise or more because people are going to have to make a journey and come back with drinks, bump into people, etc, etc. But the principal point is that most of the service in the garden is done by an app. So already the majority of people, certainly those in the huts. And others are ordering and the drinks are brought to them. It simply gives those people an option. Should they choose to use it? That they can go up to a bar which is positioned in the corner of the premises and get a soft drink. Obviously it sells soft drinks or a beer themselves. That's the only change. And respectfully, we think that the bar will only have a positive impact. Because it will provide a point of sale and supervision with extra staff in the area. So we respectfully disagree with Isabel's point that the bar will in any way make the outside area busier or will in any way increase noise. I mean, I suppose just on the note of the bar outside, just for clarification, I think it might be helpful for the committees. You know, is it going to be a fully stocked bar or is it just going to be something limited? Like, for example, will it just be cocktails? Will it just be pints? I just wonder and I don't think it's as big as a bar inside. So I just think it would be important just to have that clarification of what would be available. Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to bring Zach in. He's the general manager and he can assist. Yeah, it will be significantly limited compared to the main bar inside from an operational point of view. There's just not the space there to stock everything that we've got in the bar. So it would be a limited wines like one or two of the whites, one or two of the reds, one or two of the roses, a couple of spirits, a couple of beers. So it would be significantly limited offering compared to what's on the main bar itself inside. It will sell draught beer. It will sell draught beer. So there'll be pumps selling draught beer. So it will be a classic external bar with a limited range of alcohol and some soft drinks. And presumably it's not taken up as much space because you want to have more seating. No, I mean, the structure is existing. It's what's already there. It's what's already there. It's already there when Young's got the premises back from the former operator. It's just not important to clarify. They realised that it wasn't licensed. So then they're making the application because obviously they need the authorisation to sell, which frankly, the previous operator didn't have. Understood. Thank you. Isabel, sorry, I'm not going to come for any kind of right to reply. Otherwise, we're going to end up in a to and fro here. And I think your representation has been sufficient enough and certainly heard loud and clear. So are there any more questions from the care? Oh, you're on to go on. Well, I don't know whether I'm going back and forth. That's how I'm not supposed to be doing. But I mean, if Tom is saying that it shouldn't increase the number of people in the garden and he's given all sorts of legitimate reasons for that, is there a possibility of considering limiting the number of people who can come into the garden in some way? Which would certainly have the effect of not therefore increasing the noise in the garden. No, absolutely not. And I need to be clear on this, members of the committee. So there is you have no power or discretion. I'm sorry to say this rather forcibly, but we are talking about the business to limit the garden in any way. It is not part of the application. Yeah. Obviously, youngs don't want to spend £1.2 million making the pub better only to lose a significant trading area. So, you know, if you're not happy with the bar, you can refuse the application. But we are not going to agree to any limit on the operation of the outside area in the absence of any ongoing complaints from local residents or from any of the responsible authorities. And so as far as we're concerned, we are providing a nice safe space where which our customers enjoy. And we want to be able to continue to do that. And if the local residents would care to come, we hope they do. They'd be more than welcome. I mean, with respect, it's not on us to to say whether how young spend their million pound furnishings. I don't think that was up for question in any way, Mr. Anderson. But if you could just confirm for us, what's the capacity of the garden? So the capacity is when when the when the inside is not full, it can take up to 700 people. The garden can take up to 700. Yes. Yes. And the venue itself. So 962. Wow. So the premises trades with a ground floor and a first floor. Yep. So when in the summer, most of the customers, as Isabelle has indicated, are in the garden. As they are in most pubs. Well, good old British summertime. I wouldn't back on it maybe this year. But just important to know because just for just for clarity, I think it helps us. OK, well then, unless there are any other questions, I don't want us to kind of go around in circles here. Was there anything else? And in wrapping up, Mr. Anderson, would you like to just kind of say anything before we go to deliberation? No, forgive me for mentioning the point. It is just that obviously that there is a sensitivity about the garden because we, you know, young looked at it and thought, well, should we license the garden? We don't want to license the garden. We don't want to have entertainment out there or any other license activities. Let's just license the bar. We will leave the garden as it is. So the garden is is the reason the pub is successful, frankly, particularly in the summer. So yes, it is a large number of people, but it's a big space and probably 200 of those people are going to be in huts where there is natural noise attenuation. And that's when it's absolutely maximum for so it doesn't trade to that capacity regularly. It's weather dependent, although obviously that may be less so with the roof. So we do think that on the application made 11 o'clock restriction is reasonable. If there are issues in the summer, youngs will address them. You know, they will open dialogue and they will look to address them. They have door stuff at the weekends, they have high staffing levels. So the standard of behavior in the garden is high. You know, they won't accept, you know, groups of people, you know, singing and misbehaving generally. This is going to be a nice place for people to enjoy themselves, to eat and drink. But we do think that going to the application, the garden bar can only be of benefit to the pub and also to the local residents. Thank you. I think that's understood loud and clear to the committee. Thank you very much. So we ask you. No, not at all, Mr Anderson. Thank you very much. So we're going to ask you if you bear with while we just go into a deliberation and we will be back momentarily. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. Hi, thanks for bearing with us. Quite right, John. Just waiting to see if the team are here. Just waiting for Councillor Garden to jump back in. I think he was having a bit of camera trouble earlier. There's Justin, Pam, Kaya, Selina, Isabel and the applicants. Brilliant. Just waiting for Councillor Garden. Here he is. Brilliant. Well, thank you for bearing with us and apologies for you being third on the bill. I know it's been a long evening, but without any further ado, members have considered the application and listened to the representations of the applicant and Isabel Petri. Members have also read and considered the written representation submitted against the application prior to the hearing. Having carefully considered all of the material, the subcommittee have determined to grant the variation application as sought, including the removal of condition 20. It was noted that the scope of this application was limited to a license for the bar rather than the garden and members are satisfied that there are suitable conditions already on the license that would assist in upholding the licensing objectives. We would encourage, however, the applicant, as they mentioned in the hearing, to engage with residents and neighbours in improving community relations. We will do so. Thank you very much, members of the committee. Thank you, Mr. Anderson. Thank you, Mr. Anderson. On that note, I just want to say thank you to officers and to the committee and especially, again, I'll say it to Councillor Garden because this is definitely his final one before he adjourns to become the mayor for the year. Thank you for all your efforts on licensing over the last year with me as chair, Adrian. You've been the phenomenal committee member, but good luck to you as mayor. Thank you, everybody. And might see you next.