Transcript

to the environment and economy overview and screening committee Tuesday the 11th of June 2024 at 10am. The reason I'm introducing the meeting is because this is the first meeting of the committee since the annual meeting back in May and that meeting it was agreed that the Labour group would chair this committee and the committee is advised that Councillor Dave Evans is has been appointed as chair of the committee for the municipal year. I'll now hand over to Councillor Dave Evans chair. Okay thank you very much Stephen good morning everybody and welcome to the environment overview and scrutiny committee Tuesday the 11th of June. I'd like to just move on to agenda item two appointment of vice chair. Do we have any nominations? Councillor Piers. Yeah I'd like to nominate Councillor David Richardson as the vice chair of this committee. Okay thank you very much. Councillor Glen Banks. I'd like to second that please chair thank you. Okay Councillor Ryan McEwen. Can I propose Councillor Ray Hughes please. Okay and Mel Buckley please. I'd like to second Councillor Ray Hughes please. Okay any other nominations? Chair just can I just clarify Councillor McEwen is he on the committee? He's substitute for Richard Lloyd. Right I'm sorry I wasn't aware of that sorry to apologize chair just checking. Okay we'll have no further nominations we'll have to put that to the vote so everybody's got their cameras on could I have a show of hands in favour of Councillor David Richardson? One two three four one two three four one two three four five. Okay thank you. Have a show of hands in favour of Councillor Ray Hughes. One two three four five and also myself six so we'll give that to Councillor Ray Hughes who's now the vice chair of the committee. Okay thank you very much. Okay moving on to agenda item three any apologies. Chair Councillor David Coggins-Cogan is intending to join the meeting he's just running a little bit late and I understand Katie Wilby is chief officer for Street Scene is also trying to join the meeting but she's having IT difficulties. We have two substitutions Councillor Ryan McEwen as previously stated for Councillor Richard Lloyd and Councillor Alastair Ibbotson for Councillor Dan Rose. Thank you very much. Okay moving on to agenda item four minutes to confirm as a correct record the minutes of the meeting held on the 5th of March 2024 pages 5 to 10. I shall go through them one page at a time. Page five. Okay the only thing Steve I've noticed on page five is I think there's a typo in the first sentence under accuracy on 75 where it says that his attendance has been noted full stop s so I think that just yeah we'll amend that chair. Page six. Page seven. Page eight. Page nine please Chair. Yes Councillor Piers. Yeah the the resolution under C was a report would be coming back in June. This is linked to the fourth paragraph on page eight. This meeting from the schedule is the only one in June. Can I ask where the report is? Yeah thank you Councillor Piers. I did check that prior. Steve would you like to answer that one? Yeah sure Chair. Thank you for that question Councillor Piers. What we have to do because we're in an election period at the moment we have to check through items on the agenda to see whether they are deemed to be politically sensitive or can create difficulties for Council so we have moved that back to a subsequent meeting July meeting Chair so that will be taken care of in July. It doesn't show on the full work programme because that was published before the arrangements for this meeting but I will address that at the at the next item Chair. Okay is that okay Councillor Piers? Yes under the circumstances thank you. Thank you very much. Page. Chair. Sorry sorry Councillor Banks I missed you. Apologies Chair it's my laptop scrolled through rather too quick. I know I wasn't at the meeting but I'm just wondering there was a concern raised by Councillor Lloyd regarding recycling waste collection points and locations and asking for more detailed consultations with local members. Is there any I would anyone know if that's actually been actioned please and thank you for letting me put in. I don't know on that one. Steve do you have one? I don't know the answer to that question Chair but I will find out for the Councils and let the committee know. Okay Councillor Banks I've made a little note there now and I'll follow that up as well. Okay thank you. Page 10. Okay so we'll just have a show of hands that they are correct. Okay that's carried thank you very much. Okay agenda item five any declarations of interest including whipping declarations? Anybody declaring an interest in any of the next agenda items? No. Okay agenda item six the forward work program and action tracking. Steve. Thank you Chair and obviously you'll notice that your normal facility is not not present today she's actually on annual leave and so I'm taking a meeting today on behalf of Margaret Parry. So this is the monthly report that comes back to committees which just gives an update of any actions from previous committee meetings and looking ahead to for the work plan items. So appendix one only has one item from the from the meeting that last held in in March about discussions about connects centre being included in the forward work program. This is actually now being referred to the cross also of the committee meeting and it will be included on there for the work program to be discussed a subsequent meeting which we hold down on Thursday this week to agree that plan for moving forward. Appendix two the forward work program members will note that the date for July does still have a ninth of July but again like I said previously it was published before we looked at the and had agreement for moving meetings around because obviously the election period does fall at a quite inconvenient time for issuing certain agendas and items when members of the committee services team are diverted to election duties such as polling clerks or polling offices at stations etc and council overnight on the first day. So we are moving that meeting back to the to the date that email previously circulated. There has been a slight update to some of the items on the forward program for future meetings and which I've notified this morning of those and in July in addition to those items listed and there will be an update on enforcement service and September remains the same. October there's a slight change to there's a few changes actually for October and it might be more helpful chair if I circle that to the committee rather than just read them for the moment because there's probably too much to sort of take note of at the moment. So it's really just to give members the confidence that that plan is now in place and is being firmed up and the dates for the future meetings into 24/25 are now published and we can start to collect those agenda items, forward work programs with agenda items. So happy to take questions chair because I know Mike will like these. Yes, thank you. Yeah, normally we're asked if we would like to add any items to the forward work program. I think that the recent issue with the closure of the household recycling centres on two days a week, we need to actually scrutinise that very urgently and can I request that we include that in the July meeting if that's at all possible please. No doubt members have seen comments on Facebook, I've had emails and you've probably seen the large queues outside the HRC centres queuing up for 45 minutes to an hour. There are serious problems so I think that we do need to look into this and try and resolve the situation we have. This two day a week closure is causing problems. We need to understand in detail the background to it. I know it was looked at as a budget item, glossed over, but we do need to look as a scrutiny committee in detail at what the problems are with the HRC and I would ask that this be added as soon as possible but preferably the July meeting so we can provide information to our residents and our constituents who contact us. I may have a local issue, we have a HRC centre in Buckley but I understand Sandycroft have had issues so I would request that we add this to the forward work programme. Thank you. OK thank you Councillor Piers. Councillor Richardson. Morning, thank you chair, can you hear me OK yeah? We can hear you fine, thank you. OK, I'm just looking at the forward planning for 12th November 24th and it's just clarification for myself really, being new to the committee and I'm looking at street seat standards to consider feedback from the task and finish group and my question is, it should be quite a simple one, when is the task and finish group held and who is on it and this is a question probably because I'm new to the committee. Thank you. OK thank you, I can, one second I've just lost my screen, there we go. I was going to raise that at the end on that very same issue that we've got, I see a new committee now. I would like more clarity on the task and finish group because I think we only met twice previously but we probably need a couple more meetings especially with this new committee to actually take it forward so I will be speaking with the officers to actually ask for a further few meetings on that task and finish group because the standards is quite a lengthy document but we didn't get down to the nitty gritty of that so I take your point Councillor Richardson and my point to the officers is that we need a few more meetings on that one so hopefully you will be invited to those meetings as we go forward. Thank you very much chair, thank you. OK Councillor Glynbanks. Thank you chair, yeah first one I'd like to mention is a few items that I believe should be on here possibly even there's no mention of like potholes and weed control recycling figures as a you know maybe I mean I'm quite proud to say that because of the you know I subbed on the housing committee at one month and actually suggested that the void situation should be a monthly item until the situation improved because it's a massive issue out there that one is and similar to as is weed control I mean I had a lady, 84 year old lady who fell over some weeds on Sunday going home from church and hurt herself which thankfully she never broke any bones but you know there's absolutely no sign of any weed control as such of spraying taking place. I mean I have raised this over the years it's been an issue since we had one contractor and tried to split it up so things like that I think you know recycling figures should be standing items because of where we're heading to you know we're headed for this these targets so surely we should be have a even if it's only an update every month to say where we are in the system and where we're heading to because you can't just dump it on us at one time but there's no mention of it on the forward work program so but I've got some more yeah sorry I'm sorry go again yeah deposit return scheme which is mentioned here we were talking about this years ago and it has actually been implemented in other European countries years ago and I'm not knocking flinching for this but Welsh government did mention it to to leave waters at the time that they should be going to look at these countries that are doing it I mean never be afraid to pinch somebody else's good idea when it comes to something they're doing right so go and have a look around Europe if they're doing something right copy them or try and even improve on what they're doing you know so that came to us or yourselves on the 13th of June 23 it's not going to be discussed here till October 24 that's like 15 or 16 months gap and it's already been let's say it's been implemented elsewhere before then but anyway enough on that one next one conversion 12th of November conversion of the FCC fleet to electric and it oh someone else speaking and so electric or alternative fuels I believe we're at the crossroads here with this item and myself personally I call it the VHS beta match moment with hydrogen or or electric but it does seem I mean it's mentioned in agenda item seven which I will mention it again after about you know the charging points and and things like that for for the emissions so it does seem as though we're pushing towards the electric when there's going to be an abundance of hydrogen about and I wouldn't I'd hate us to miss out on on where we could go with that so I would like I'm not suggesting to change the dates for the November but I would like a report on alternatives brought forward with that so that we can see for ourselves not just to push for electric because I'm not I'm not convinced by electric to be honest I mean the the problem with the electric is as we know batteries and the the cost to the environment to create them batteries is huge so it's considering what we are going to have at our disposal very very soon it's it's I think it's prudent of us to fully include it in our in our forward funds that's it chair thank you all right cheers thank you very much for that can I bring in the chief officer okay good morning everybody so there's quite a few issues that have been raised by members here first one around the HRCs being closed two days per week that's no problem bringing it back to the scrutiny committee but we've missed the July deadline already so it would have to go to the next available committee in September because of recess there's no way we could we could manage to do that by July unfortunately because of the deadlines street scene standards there is I think there is a further meeting plan but I agree the committee membership has changed and some of the members who were on that group have obviously are no longer on this scrutiny committee so that will need to be revised so I maybe if we speak to you chair about how we go about organising that but I think there was another meeting in the diary later this summer according to Chris Goddard the service manager who's leading on it the new items around that Councillor Banks has just raised potholes is due actually because we as Steve Goodrum just outlined we've revised the forward work plan which there is a another agenda item on there for the HAMP which is a highway asset management plan and potholes would fall under that item that's due to come to you in early October so you will get a report on potholes in October ahead of the winter season it's not going to be feasible to do that because it's a huge piece of work in terms of the inspection policy that we're going to be bringing to you so but if I mean if you're wanting like a dashboard to be coming every every month that's going to take some time for me to set up but you know if that's the way you want to go that's absolutely fine. We do have I think weed spraying is comes to you on the forward work plan every year as a performance update usually around December or January time to reflect back on the season so that we can make any changes for the following season obviously we're in contract already so we can't make amendments to the contract quickly I mean I'm happy to have that discussion with you offline Councillor Banks about how we take that forward and then the final one you've asked about recycling figures we have got a report coming to you next month on on recycling and waste so that is on the agenda for next month. Deposit return scheme is a national scheme we have no control over that so we are very much in the hands of UK government and Welsh government I understand they've put the time scales back again so 2025 October 25 so it keeps slipping because they want it to be a national scheme for for all the UK nations so it's not just Wales doing it on their own basically so we are very much in their hands unfortunately but we we will bring you an update in the autumn and with the final one I think you mentioned about the conversion of fleet to EV it's not just that report isn't just on EV it is about alternative fuels as well such as hydrogen because there is a lot going on especially in Deeside so that we will be talking about hydrogen as well. Okay thank you very much for that Katie okay a few things noted there obviously I will speak with the Chief Officer outside the meeting to look at the standards and get the dates and the meetings for that and trying to arrange something and okay anything else on the forward work programme? No oh Councillor Richardson. Thank you chair while Councillor Bancs was on the subject of items that he seems to think are missing from the forward work plan I think it'd be I think we need to talk about the grass the grass cutting and I understand the reasons why that we're only cutting four times a week but driving home off nights this morning I used to do a lot of grass cutting myself when I left school I worked at the Ministry of Defence sites in Chester so we're cutting gardens we're cutting sports fields we're cutting grass verges and I'm just looking around now and the length that the grass has grown you would need totally different equipment so it's so long you're not going to get through it with a normal mower. Okay can I just say I think that we there is an issue there we're experiencing that across Flintrow at the moment and you're quite right but I think also under the standards we we can hopefully address that for future years but I think they've got to do what they've got to do at the moment. Katie? Yeah thank you chair obviously we this comes up every few years and it's it's caused by quite a number of issues it's not just one single issue that's caused the the longer grass and we have actually I mean we've we've had figures from the Met Office just recently that we've had the the warmest May and spring on record so even though we've had wet dull weather from you know in many parts of the the country it has actually had the average temperature has been the highest it's ever been so that unfortunately the unusually high rainfall with the warm warm temperatures is has accelerated the grass growth as well so not only have we you know we've had obviously a reduction in staffing you know we've had 427 000 taken out of our staffing budget this year because of the the budget situation so we are operating with smaller gangs so that the number of operatives on each grass cutting gang is is less that's obviously impacted our ability to cut more areas just to give you an idea we actually in terms of the number of areas and and you know no one area is comparable with another because of you know the size of it but we cut actually 729 sites and 16 cemeteries and that that's a monthly cycle that we have to go through so we you know there are a number of issues that are compounding our performance at the moment are affecting us we have got on top of it we have thrown additional resources at it in the last two weeks to try and catch up but if this warm wet weather continues it's just going to unfortunately carry on unfortunately and it happened about four or five years ago it didn't happen last year it didn't happen the year before we've also compared our progress compared to last year and and the year before and we are roughly on track with with last year in terms of where our progress was and we're about one cut behind where we were in may 2022 so our performance is actually still on par it's just that we we're obviously impacted by the fewer number of operatives we have and the weather it is on the forward work program to to bring a report in terms of our performance and whether you review policy again for for next year but the policy has already been approved for this year in terms of the number of cuts um so we are already obviously to change that midway through the year would would impact us operationally as well yeah thanks katie for the explanation we all know the british weather is variable and we should be in a position to react to that well my question was more about so you mentioned may 22 were we only cutting the same parts four times a year then or is that something new this year my question was really about the equipment that we've got is that able to to cut the grass because the length that we've let it grow to yeah absolutely and we do those are the sorts of things we we look at when we we review the policy and when we bring our performance reports to you okay thank you katie okay thank you very much um right we'll move on to agenda item 7 which is the workforce travel survey report yeah do you want to do the recommendations just oh sorry there are three there sorry got sidetracked there okay if we can uh prove the recommendations as on page 11 uh the three recommendations can i have a mover including the addition in september yeah yeah yeah and as steve said with the amendments that he's uh made and will circulate okay okay that's moved and seconded seconded have a show of hands in favor please thank you very much okay that's carried okay sorry about that i'll move on to agenda item seven the workforce travel survey report the chief officer planning environment and economy cabinet member of planning and public health and protection who's is this andrew i'll i'll start chef that's okay bernard powell um but new members on the committee i'll just give a little bit background about why this is here about 12 months ago we brought a report to the committee in terms of the council's performance in terms of achieving its ambition to be carbon neutral by 2030 and at that point we made reference to the employee travel survey which hadn't been completed and it was going to go out for another push over the summer to try and improve response numbers it's been coordinated by our colleagues in human resources and at that time if you remember those members that were on the committee then there was a request that once it had been completed details of that survey come to this committee so that we could you could see and scrutinize those comments and the return so that's why we brought this to you today obviously climate change has got its own committee that runs in parallel with this one but this was a specific request from environment overview and scrutiny committee to have a look at the employee travel survey and the results therefore so at that point i'll take breath and hand over to alex ellis who i'm sure many of you will know who's our program manager for climate change and carbon reduction to take you through the detail of the report thank you very much um good morning everyone so from page 21 of your report pack um you can see the details of the employee travel survey um just to give a little bit of context because i know some of you are new to the committee um we do have a net zero carbon by 2030 ambition for the council currently um and within that is an aim to reduce our emissions from mobility and transport within the council by 80 by 2030 so that's quite a considerable reduction um the the majority of the emissions from the mobility and transport theme actually come from our own fleet vehicles but you'll all be familiar with the the sort of barriers that we're having with continuing that currently so we are looking at ways that we can assist and facilitate changes in employee behavior around um transport both with within business travel and employee commuting so this survey look to both improve the accuracy of the data that we produce on employee commuting so we have to report our carbon footprint to walsh government each year and currently we use quite a generic methodology for calculating our employee commuting by carrying out this survey it's allowed us to get much more granular detail on how our employees and travel to the workplace we had 628 responses which is about 10 of employees um this didn't include school staff which represent over 50 of our employee base and you can see from the responses that we received within the survey that a large proportion of those were office-based staff which um is um predictable given that the survey is um accessible online so it's a lot more easy to access for those who are office-based um the survey asked questions around how um respondents travel to the workplace and predictably the most um common travel mode was by private car um there were some quite a few open responses that were given to that question which will allow us to consider ways that we can perhaps encourage employees and remove barriers to people using solitary private cars we asked a question around walking and cycling to work um and the responses there will allow us to consider when we review the active travel routes around our office bases of the public transport networks there was a question specifically around um a salary sacrifice scheme for an ultra low emission vehicle and this was something that um hr have been looking into but weren't sure on what the take-up would be from the employee base and the response to this question from the survey respondents was quite positive um they gave some indications into um why what would encourage them to um adopt an ultra low emission vehicle which is also really helpful for us um around investing in charging infrastructure or ensuring that the the scheme um if it becomes available is affordable and has certain benefits to the employee um there's a number of recommendations that we've made um which kind of reflect the responses that we have from respondents um and these are around um again influencing and encouraging um employees to consider sort of low carbon alternatives um when they're traveling to and from the workplace um and i'm happy to take any questions okay thank you very much alex uh for that um my first question uh before anybody puts their hand up is why were schools not encouraged to take part since they are over 50 percent of the workforce or if they were encouraged why did they not none of them do it um the survey wasn't open to schools because um the uh the incentives and the barriers that were being included in the survey wouldn't necessarily be open to school staff in the same way that they're open to um the the other employee base so it would have been difficult for us to be able to offer the same question set and we did consider offering a slightly revised question set to schools um but it's something that we could look at our future iterations of the survey to make sure we get a much wider response okay thank you very much for that council peers all right thank you um thank you chair thank you for the uh report i've earned a number of questions and a couple of concerns um the executive summary says that flinch county council must calculate the carbon footprint and i think you advised in the presentation that this has to be forwarded to welsh government given that only 10 of the entire workforce uh took part in the summary are we convinced that this is a valid document that can go to welsh government and only nine percent of street scene employees completed the survey you know that's uh you know i don't see how how this reflects the current situation um page 27 section 110 when we're looking at the um the questionnaire itself and then the third paragraph it talks about public transport is too complex i don't understand that you know you wait to the bus stop you get on the bus why is it why is it complex has this been explored can you explain what my public transport is too complex i'll agree that the public transport reliability is poor i'm sick of contacting the county council about the number four service due to its constant cancellations and delays and yet when you look at the number one bus service going from rexman to chester every 15 minutes i was in chester on saturday there was two buses coming into chester one behind the other so i think that you know we do need to engage with areva and then try and um try and look for improvements um question 15 on page 27 um talked about um about encouraging you to use public transport 50 said nothing would encourage them to use public transport but don't forget we're looking 10 of the workforce but 50 said nothing would encourage you to use public transport so i think we have a a problem there um it looks like everything that could encourage them they're not interested so is it not okay then for private vehicle use if that's the employee's choice i know you're looking at salary sacrifice schemes i'll come on to that now on page 28 202 it does talk about the salary sacrifice scheme and in uh 401 that's a look excuse me yeah on the 202 on page 28 it says it's not certain whether the council would also need to finance such a scheme a salary sacrifice screen so this this is to be investigated further i don't think that we should be using public money to subsidize the salary sacrifice scheme for vehicles that's that's as far as i'm concerned it's okay in the private sector we we had it airless but i think in the public sector i don't think we should use public money for subsidizing and i'd like to resolve now that the council will not be financing uh such a scheme other than the administration of any scheme should it come on board um so in page 28 401 it says council added resource to encourage employees to partake in sustainable transport so what is this council added resource and is there a cost associated to it uh page 37 um it does show the emissions have been rising for three years since covid is there any explanation for that and again when i look at page 45 question 11 59 state nothing would encourage people to cycle or walk so nothing would encourage them to get on public transport nothing would encourage them to cycle or walk so are we stuck and resigned to people traveling in vehicles you do find it convenient but as i say given the the amount of people partaking in the survey i just question the validity thank you okay thank you councillor pierce uh i'll take alex back on that before we move on yep um i think i've captured all of those councillor pierre so please do let me know if i've missed any um with regards to your first query around only 10 having responded and can that be used as a representation of how our employees um travel to and from workplace and we did actually compare the split of um transport types against the so the methodology that we currently use is based on an rac report from i think it's 2012 um which is the same methodology that all of the welsh public sector use um and that splits um transport types down by percentage um similarly to how we've done within that question set um when we when we had the survey results put together we actually compared that um vehicle split to the rac survey and it was very similar so we're actually fairly confident that um we've captured quite a large proportion of office-based employees and that gives us um a fair um sort of split of how people are currently traveling to the workplace um we are looking to have future iterations of the survey um and with with extended results and extended exposure from staff base we may get a more accurate representation um but it was encouraging to see that it did reflect quite closely with the rac report um in terms of public transport the query on it being too complex um i think that was with regards to there not being one um set route to and from a workplace so depending on where someone is located in the county they might have to get a number of buses or a combination of buses and trains to get to the workplace and being able to coordinate that between different um bus routes or transport types can be quite complicated to make sure that you get to your workplace um at the correct time and to be able to carry out your work activities um 50 said that nothing would encourage them to move away from using their private vehicles and you're absolutely right everyone has their own their own choice how they travel to and from the workplace um but as a council we have made a commitment to be net zero carbon by 2030 so you know it's within our our power to try to influence um and change people's attitudes and behaviors around travel and if we can um try to facilitate that change for some of our employees to decarbonize their routes into work then we've we've we've reduced our carbon footprint in that element um so by um trying to remove those barriers we may be able to change even some of those 50 that said that nothing would encourage them um in terms of the costs um we were um let me just get the wording um so the the cost consideration was specifically around the administration the staff time to administer a scheme um it wasn't around using public money to fund such a scheme it would work in the same way as the current salary sacrifice for the cycling um scheme um and yes there is a rise in emissions from employee commuting since covid and that's due to increased travel to and from the workplace since covid um you know there is a need for a combination of office time and home working um to suit whatever um the different work activities are and so this is why we've seen an increase um in that 2020 to 21 we have the lowest um emissions and that was obviously while we were heavily in lockdown so a lot of office staff were all based in their homes and since then we've seen an increase of of coming into the workplace i think that's all of them um thank you okay thank you very much thanks thank you chair uh like just a few points alex and um please don't think i'm being uh over picky with these but um uh first recommendation is for it mentions um charging points for cars in it so it is you know so that does sort of suggest a letter so there's no mention of anybody looking to other alternatives on that which i do think as we mentioned in the last time that we should be pushing um does does the carbon footprint take into account employees heating their homes because obviously there's you know it's you can't take away from that fact um and then onto the zero stroke also low emissions obviously at the at the point of of where you get the electric from say a solar panel or something the electric is classed as um clean but there's obviously there's always a footprint somewhere in it where in its production even of the actual panel itself the battery and whatever so is that any of that taken into account and um as for um surveys like this or or schemes like this they're always going to work well i mean they're pushed from south wales these items are obviously and yes though i mean i remember mentioned this a few times over the years that um what works fantastically well in car before Swansea doesn't necessarily work so well here and that takes me on to the what we will have all seen in the news last week about the super duper train service that's being provided along the south wales commuter belt i mean they have said they're going to have so many trains running along it you won't need a timetable because there'll be so many trains whereas we've got a system where we've got miles in between train stations and it's this this has a knock-on effect for agenda item nine later on as well because you know it doesn't none of it helps us in um i mean you can go from flint to prostatin without a train without a stop no stop for like 15 miles it's ridiculous to be honest and in south wales that wouldn't be happening i'm guessing they're stopping at absolutely every little town and village on the way between flanethaly say and and cardiff you know i don't i don't know exactly but i'm guessing they are um so the public transport you know it's it's it's got to be something where they're sharing it around that must be costing billions what they're doing down there um that leads me on so there's no mention i've seen no i know you've mentioned public transport and i'm guessing you'll say flexi isn't it there's no mention of flexi in here and to me personally the flexi service needs you make a major revamp it needs it's a good ideal but it needs revamping totally um quick one on the um survey demographic um i can't believe that 628 people is 10 percent of our employees because if you take away the employees who actually work in education that would mean we're employing about eight or nine thousand people so i'm guessing this alex and this is probably a figure that will work in your favor because it'll mean that it's more than 10 who responded because there's no way of we do we employ eight or nine thousand people because at least i'm guessing it was more like four thousand so if you take the education out of it i think it was four and a half thousand altogether take education out you're talking about two and a half thousand so it means that more likely 25 percent have responded to your which makes it more credible for yourself um and could you just explain a little bit more the um salary sacrifice please that's it thanks thank you alex um thank you cancer thanks um there's a couple of questions here which are really more directed to hr because the um salary sacrifice scheme um is a scheme that hr have been looking into um and so the detail that was within that specific question in the survey was given to us by hr um as far as i'm aware the schemes that are currently um being offered to employee bases for domestic use are um ulev so they're either ev or hybrid um and within those schemes they do include um the installation of nev charger at the employee's property um but as i mentioned that was only one of the options that was um offered as part of the piece of work that hr were carrying out um and um i'm sure that one when they look to um progress the feasibility of this salary sacrifice scheme that they will um they can you know table a report to yourselves about the details of it um the home working emissions are included in our carbon footprint and they are based on the national um average emission factor for heating the home um so that is included in our carbon footprint currently um the flexi service i'm not sure if um katie can comment on that one and the 10 um does include the school number so the head count was just over 6 000 um which means our full employee base was over 6 000 so the the respondents were around 10 um but i take on board your comment regarding that thank you okay thank you very much council richardson thank you chair uh alex will please be pleased to know there's not any awkward questions just some observations really i noticed on the questionnaire that it doesn't really um specify the difference between a full electrical a full electric vehicle and a hybrid a self-charging hybrid because there's a massive difference you know and when when people start saying there's no charging points a self-charging hybrid doesn't need one um on page 48 question 14 it's it's something we do where i work and i just want to make sure that you consider it we actually have an online register where people who are interested in sharing a journey to work can go on they don't put their address in but they put the postcode or their you know their rough area and it's worked quite well in the past because i have a colleague who works in works where i work but he lives in blackpool and it was only through that system that he managed to find that someone else in our factory works at preston so you know they they share the lift and as as well as the impact on you know on on our planet they're both saving money with fuel as well and just on page 50 when we talk about barriers for other methods of getting to work quite often uh i'll cycle to work when the weather's nice it's four miles to cycle it's six of a go in the car so it makes sense to go uh on my push bike but one thing you definitely definitely need there is is showers at the other end because you may find as well that people may i i can't run to work anymore i used to be able to but people people may run to work because you know if they can get a shower when they get there because i did notice on survey uh i can't see which page it is now um one of the reasons people said you know they they wouldn't make a bicycle journey or or run or whatever to work because of lack of showers and that's it thank you okay thank you for that alex um yes thank you for um your uh review there on the um car sharing and that's the kind of that's one of the recommendations there to look into um options that are available currently to promote within the council to help with car sharing um in terms of showers we do actually have facilities at um our teedos and offices and but that's they're not available at all of our office spaces so um yes that is one of the barriers that we could look into thank you okay thank you councillor ibbitson um thank you chair um can we be surprised that so few staff are willing to consider public transport as an option when across so much of our county it is patchy unreliable and the operating hours do not match with the requirements of local communities it is a simple fact that in large parts of our county buses and trains do or bus the bus services do not operate at times where to enable people to get to work if people have a car faced with a patchy and unreliable bus service they will use the car if people don't have a car then the restrictions beyond work i mean people generally travel travel for work for shopping and for leisure for people who do not drive in so many of our communities across flincher the only options for leisure exist during the daytime on weekdays because there are not services or adequate services in the evenings or at weekends that that means that for anybody who is in work who does not have a car they have very little option to socialize at all outside of the workplace this drives people to acquire cars because the alternative is loneliness um and then people will choose to use them over patchy and unreliable service equally in terms of getting to the shops um bus services across flincher are not adequate in terms of the routes and the frequency for people in a great many communities to get um to to shops um other than again within standard office hours faced with this we can't be surprised that our employees employees of every other company in flincher choose not to use public transport so we can either um as the recommendations say uh work within the current limitations or we could take political decisions to fix the problem our bus services are in this state because of political decisions taken at westminster in cardiff and at this council we can fix them there's ample evidence that local authorities which have municipal bus companies which run their own services for the public public transport for the public not for private profit serve communities better than private operators who can withdraw a service with essentially no notice to the passengers that use it less than a month in terms of passengers being notified that a service might be discontinued faced with that will the cabinet member commit the cabinet member for streets in and transportation to uh begin the process of opening a municipal bus company in flincher to serve our communities with a reliable service that enables people to look again at a decent reliable service that operates when it's needed by our communities and which is affordable for residents which connects up our county and serves the public with public transport not private profit thank you councillor everton alex do you have any response initially to that um no i don't okay thank you um i think you've deviated councillor everton from the report here um i um with respect chair the uh fourth recommendation uh refers to within the current limitations i'm suggesting that we should amend that um to consider what might be done about those limitations i i've asked a question for cabinet member um okay members i'll bring you back in in a minute i'll just hear from the chief officers and cabinet members i'll bring you back in uh council chris brittle yes thank you chair just a brief observation really uh you asked the question in relation to schools not being involved in the survey i've read the report with a great deal of interest because i was part of a car sharing group many many years ago as a teacher and it worked very well there were four of us from mold and we took our car you know almost every four weeks and took other colleagues with us to and from school i think the problems arose really probably in the sort of 70s and 80s when the curriculum was changed and so on and we had a plethora of meetings after school um faculty meetings departmental meetings pastoral care meetings and invariably we were on different teams and so on so it became totally impractical and viable to operate that which is which is sad but it's a fact of life and again i think nowadays and it is mentioned in the report too in relation to other world because you know on their way home they'll pick up children from nurseries or from grandparents or parents or other carers child carers so so the whole process really has become far more complicated really i think we have to recognize that we're the best world in the world you know the the the the implications of car sharing are not very practical in most circumstances nowadays thank you jim okay uh kevin and katie please thank you there's quite a few things that obviously touch across the two different portfolios and i know this is some a report that's been led by alex um in a different portfolio but there are quite a number of cross-cutting themes really and i'm just going to mention you know there are quite a number of those items are actually on the forward work program for for us to discuss public transport is one of them i think it's coming to you back in september october there's a whole we've got an update on local bus services and where the best the regional bus network review is up to and municipal bus companies may be part of that conversation but that is being organized on a regional basis through the cjcs and has been driven by national policy we i agree with councilor banks that flexi is part of that solution as well and that should be included going forward some of the other questions around active travel obviously we've got another report i think coming to you next month around active travel and the healthy healthy travel charter which actually ties into this so there's a report coming to you next month on that um i mean i completely agree with all of the comments made with by members around reliability and the network coverage and you know the operational times of public transport but again you know the way the legislation works at the moment we have no control over that we've got no jurisdiction over commercial operators so we can't control when they operate where they operate the fares they charge so that's you know that's what we're trying to move towards i mean welsh government are looking at a franchised model for the whole of wales which should enable local authorities the cjcs and welsh government to take back more control of the network and you know as i said municipal bus companies may well be part of that where where the the commercial industry can't provide for that um there was i think in terms of the survey um a few members picked up on the fact that street scene had low participation levels and i mean i obviously missed being around when the survey was carried out but if it was an online survey you know a large proportion of our workforce are not they don't have access to computers um so if it was an online survey then perhaps we need to look at a different approach with you know some of our remote workforce you know we we employ around 110 passenger assistants and school transport escorts as well who are also home based and work remotely again they don't have it access so again it's how do we reach those people um you know they're required to travel for for work as well um so it's not just about the the street scene operatives you know we've got a large chunk of of um staff who actually work in school transport as well so i think we do you know maybe going forward look at how we engage with those groups and we might have to look at a different approach maybe you know group meetings or a paper-based survey but i don't want to create start printing paper when this is about sustainability um so we need to look at a different different approach okay thank you katie um kelsey hughs thank you chair i think with the with the accessible bus company if we had the money i would be saying yes let's go for it but i don't know where the money would come from to purchase vehicles have a garage have overall licenses training mechanics everything else maybe captains council ebertson can advise us where that money could actually come from okay thank you council hughs i think that was a mistake invited council ebertson to come back okay council ebertson um thank you very much chair um council hughs will be well aware that uh private bus companies operating in flincher managed to meet these costs and still extract profit from our communities uh the first structure could be set up as indeed every other municipal bus company in britain does on the basis of cost recovery we're not talking about plowing thousands and thousands of pounds of additional subsidy into public transport here we are talking about taking the element which is currently extracted from our communities from the people who have to use public transport because they have no other option taking the profit that is sucked out of them by large multinational companies often owned by other governments and taking that money and reinvesting it in our communities it is possible to do that whilst fully funding the service on a cost recovery break-even basis with no additional cost to taxpayers i'm somewhat surprised that a labor administration is so opposed to public services i have to admit chair okay thank you very much coming back on that chair i'd like to know what about the cost of the setup where we're getting the money from to purchase all this equipment okay council hughs i think um we're gonna that's a whole new agenda item um and maybe that's something we can discuss at a future scrutiny meeting rather than go backward and forward in in this meeting uh there's no further hands indicating i shall look to the recommendations and there are four recommendations there um so something's just popped up on my screen okay um so we'll go through the recommendations one at a time so we can be clear uh recommendation one scrutiny committee supports salary sacrifice schemes which provide employees an affordable and accessible means to transition from petrol or diesel vehicles to zero and ultra low emission vehicles that provide sufficient range per charge do we have a proposal second of that or do we have an amendment to that recommendation i'll make an amendment please yeah can we alter the wording that the scrutiny committee supports and unsubsidized salary sacrifice scheme okay okay do you have a seconder for that yep i see a seconder any other amendments recommendation or happy with that bother okay can i have a show of hands for that please okay that's clearly carried thank you very much recommendation two scrutiny committee supports the review of the council cycle to work scheme and its promotion highlighting the benefits and information on local infrastructure any amendments or happy to move and second that can i have a mover okay somebody was that you mel putting your hand up yeah okay okay have a second there a second yeah and a show of hands in favor recommendation two that's carried thank you very much recommendation three scrutiny committee notes and support the investigation and suitability of existing car sharing platforms that are employee-led and identify ways in which such a platform can be incentivized okay any amendments or can i have a mover for that one please move okay moved seconded seconded then we show our hands in favor of that please okay that's carried agenda item four scrutiny committee note and support the investigation by officers of how the barriers to using active travel safer routes and public transport bus services can be addressed despite current limitations they have a mover or seconder or an amendment council britain um i wish to move the recommendation replacing the word despite third to last word with seeking to remove can be addressed seeking to remove current limitations taking to remove second okay um yeah on that on that item could um council banks could we have some kind of report on what what what's the difference between uh south wales and north wales here with our you know with our schemes what what are they why are they getting these big schemes and we're not getting them because we're never going to be able to do anything with you know council herbison's touched upon this we're never going to be able to do anything unless we get the funding push into this from bus government so it's um it's got to be you know the it's massive limitations here you know it's huge limitations which under the you know there's very little room for scope without okay i'll ask the chief officer to respond to that yeah okay we right at the moment we are currently starting to develop the draft regional transport plan which is the starting point which is we'll be coming back to this committee and to consult with you all um between i think now and christmas time so you will get the opportunity to feed into the regional transport plan that that plan will also have an investment plan attached to it so everything that all your asks and wants around whatever it might be infrastructure municipal bus companies whatever it is will need to be in that regional transport plan and that is where we put in our our ask into terms of what we want in terms of investment for north wales um so that that process is underway the sub i think the subcommittee's um just about appointed the they're setting up um officer groups now advisory groups with officers between now and christmas time and then we'll be coming back to you to consult upon the regional transport plan so that is where you have your input in terms of what you want in that plan going forward and that's that's where we ask for the funding um so it really is exactly that um i i'm not sure i can't comment around the south wales metro program but that you know the south wales metro program has been in the making for a number of years it's been ongoing for i think it's well overdue um i think they've delayed progress quite some time as well there've been delays to it i can't comment how far down the road they are um i can only comment on where we are in north wales in terms of our program going forward councilor banks but the regional transport plan is the starting point okay thank you very much for that um okay with councilor everton's uh amendment where the last line says can be addressed seeking to remove current limitations can we have a mover and seconder that's riverton can we have a show of hands in favor okay that's carried thank you very much and that can unless there's where so it's intended recommendation five on the following page scrutiny committee support the review and updating of the methodology used to calculate employee commute carbon emissions improving accuracy by including employee commute distances and modes of transports highlighted in the survey then i'll be with a seconder for that or any amendments a remover well yeah seconder there was somebody put their hand up please for a seconding okay that's it and all those in favor show of hands yep okay that's carried okay thank you very much that's uh agenda item seven concluded um a lot of points made thank you very much everybody agenda item eight audit wales practicing foundations building safety in wales cabinet member for planning public health and public attorney chief officer yes thank you chair so this report concentrates on the building control service it's a service that we actually hear little about um so in a sense it's good that there's focus been applied on building control it's a slightly unusual service for a local authority that it operates in a competitive market so unlike something like planning where you need planning permission uh you have to go to the local authority with building control you can get building records passed by the private sector as well the audit wales report actually has its origins in the Grenfell tower fire which was almost exactly six years ago to the day uh and the subsequent review that followed from that which was called a packet review which identified some failings within building control and building regulations on the back of that in august 23 audit wales produced um their own report and that that this report is a response to that one audit wales identified eight recommendations four of which were for local government so they're it detailed in the report and there were four for wales government the report focuses not surprisingly on the local authority ones this report is on its way to cabinet next week so we're seeking comments from scrutiny in respect of that uh the uh the recommendation is set out as such so if it just goes through each of the four recommendations chair for local authorities and the progress towards them so recommendation five talks about a local action plan for building control we accept that that is something that we need to develop we'll do it across north wales so that we get a standard plan and uh that's an important piece of work which will be forthcoming the second one talks about um the financial stability and resilience of that service we're actually already on to that we've got an internal audit with piece of work running on that in terms of the meeting the income targets that we've got for the building control service so that it financially washes its face what i would say is a reference back to my one of my initial points that it does work in a competitive market you can drive up the prices but that may drive demand elsewhere recommendation seven talks about collaboration and i think that's a really interesting one and we've heard this mentioned in recent meetings with the minister as well that we need to explore collaboration across the region or sub-region what i would say on that one is that flincher is well resourced in terms of its building control service so should a collaborative service be pulled together we would be in a good position uh to to input into that what i would say is number of you have heard from me in terms of collaboration that often collaboration doesn't save money it does improve resilience and it does improve consistency of service but it might not be the golden ticket if you look into save money and then finally around risk management that's an aspect that we've we've covered off within our risk management strategy for the county council and we'll build in building control as a risk within that so those all four are pretty much work ongoing and we welcome any comments that the committee may have on this one thank you chair okay thank you very much andrew councilor overton um thank you chair um can i start my contribution um by asking the cabinet member for planning and public protection under whose name this report comes to the committee today um very simple question just nod or shake his head um has he read the audit wales report referenced um in this yes or no no no right okay that's that's fine i appreciate he's a very busy man um if he had done so then um he would have noticed in section 2.32 paragraph 2.32 on page 34 of the report um it makes reference to uh and i'll read the paragraph in full factors that should be considered when setting fees are specified in the regulations apart from the principle of breaking even and staff costs the factors include the use of the building floor size and cost however other potential considerations such as the competitiveness of fees and comparing with others are not specified in the regulations um the report before us today which we're being asked to vote on says that members note the outcome of the audit wales report and supports the actions to be taken to address the four recommendations made for local authorities the actions that are proposed includes on r6 building control is a competitive service customers can use other means to secure their building regulations outside of the council for example use independent approved inspectors so a review and any subsequent reviewer fees will need to ensure we remain competitive and do not price the council services out of the market and then it makes reference to comparing with other local authorities in north wales in other words the actions that we're taking to address the recommendations in the report directly conflict with what's in the actual report from audit wales and um the law the regulations um on that basis i don't think that this committee should support the recommendations i will be voting against the recommendation and i would encourage colleagues to do the same more broadly the report from audit wales makes clear that what they refer to as the scottish model wherein building control is delivered solely by local authorities without any private sector involvement um there's a number of strengths compared with the system we've got in england wales which is an absolute mismatch um the issues that are highlighted in the reports in the report from audit wales notes the incentives for developers to use private sector building control companies who have in so and the fact that a competitive market introduces potential incentives for building control companies to look on things favorably rather than critically in order to ensure future business the lack of incentives and lack of effective policing of the duty of private building control inspectors to refer to refer deficient buildings and breaches of the regulations to local authority building control departments has set out the requirement in the regulation and the fact that having a competitive market for this very important service as we've seen with the grenfell tower disaster which is the the original motivating factor for commissioning this report a life-saving service um is that essentially we've wound up with a race to the bottom that's seeing a lack of qualified staff coming into the profession that's seeing slipping in adherence to standards across the sector and which is putting financial strain on local authorities and within our own local authority members will i'm sure be familiar with the financial performance of this service last year which saw roughly half the amount of project projected income brought in by the service compared with that anticipated um given this the clear long-term answer seems to be to move to the scottish model wherein this service is delivered solely by the state through local authorities and that concurs with with the tone of the audit wales report on that basis what steps does the cabinet member propose to take to raise that with the welsh government to advocate for that um and to seek the lobby welsh government to introduce the uh what's referred to in the audit wales report is the scottish model in wales securing the safety of residents of flintshire and securing the financial sustainability of this service moving forwards so that's a question for the cap for the cabinet member okay thank you very much i'll bring in the chief officer first um just to add some context about the competitive market that we do work in and obviously as the chief officer responsible for a local authority building control service i would always promote our service over the private sector one downside of working with the private sector that Councillor Ibbotson has picked up on really is that ultimately whilst people might get their initial building regs signed off by the private sector the follow-through and sign up sign off often doesn't come forwards and we've had a number of examples within flintshire where companies have gone to the private sector sold properties without final sign-off and then that falls within the lap of the county council to pick up that so we've had some examples of that um which we've had to deal with you know personally in terms of the scottish model i would prefer it because we wouldn't have to deal with examples like that um but you know we are operate currently are operating in the mixed economy that uh the report refers to so those are my thoughts in terms of what um Councillor Ibbotson has raised okay thank you for that Andrew uh Councillor Biffle do you have anything to add yes thank you chair i've always favored to cause the local authority model of dealing with building control this was always the case many years ago when i first became involved in other government and i looked rather skeptically at the introduction of private competition in this particular field when it first was introduced and any any possibility i have of getting back to that i would certainly support and would support the scottish model as well um you know the chief officers referred to issues recently and again they've come to my notice as well you know where particular completions have not been signed off by private building control companies and there are problems relating to that and of course the local people and involved in this and who find the problems at a later date uh you know come to us as local authority on the basic assumption that it's our officers that have been dealing with these particular building control issues and signed them off but that is not the case and i i won't quote the particular areas but certainly they are issues which have been drawn to our notice recently and again people living on those estates are having difficulties in terms of selling properties and so on because these particular details are lacking in their in their files as it were you know so it's a pertinent point and again something which i have always subscribed to or continue to subscribe to and hopefully get a change in legislation in wales which will enable us to take back control of these particular issues in its entirety thank you okay if i might ask a supplementary chair uh i'll bring the others in may do such and such and i'll bring you back in a few minutes council piers uh yeah thank you uh thank you chair uh on page 62 in relation to uh question five uh i think the chief officer did mention that we don't currently have a plan but looking at the commentary it says this needs to be developed and put in place and it's by the end of august 2024 are we on track for that considering it needs to be developed and put in place um so where are we at the moment it started is it how far through is that uh page 63 talks about a next meeting due in may 24 we were past that now so does this um report does it require an update did the meeting take place in may 24 is anything to add uh page 65 it's probably along the lines of council hibbertson where you review the fees with other councils is this to have a collaboration on price i don't quite understand why you need to look at the fees of other councils because is it the case that flincher residents would only need would only be available to go to flincher's building control or could we go to rexham building control i know there's an independent approved inspector so should we be looking at their prices rather than other councils uh for competitiveness and um also it says there's a lack of agile working uh functions out in the field um is is this is this essential for on-site is it a uh hardware software problem could you explain what the problem is and whether that is essential where it could not be done back at base uh i think yeah i think that's it thank you chair okay thank you because there's uh andrew thank you council peers so with a couple of questions about the local action plan yes the meeting did take place in may of this year and uh we are on course to produce the action plan by august as well um so i'm pleased to say that uh second in terms of fees um you're right we we we do look at other local authority fees and we look at the private sector fees as well it's important to do that i mean if we come back to the point that was made previously we only recovered 50 of what we said we would last year so we need to be conscious of that and if any members have seen any recent works around pressures for next year's budget uh the income generation fees for both building control and um planning um the planning development management service are both pressures or risks certainly in terms of developing the budget for next year in terms of agile working it would just be more efficient if we had the hardware to be working on site without having to return to the office to submit reports etc we did some training yesterday on our back office system which is ironically called agile and i don't know whether it was mentioned at that but there is a product that agile do provide which would allow for that to happen it's in the second phase of the rollout of agile so hopefully that would come forward so hopefully that answers the questions there chair but if not come back please can i come back chair please okay okay yeah yeah thank thank you yeah the agile working um yesterday um at the EULA offices we we met at 10 o'clock to have a look at the um planning portal uh we still had problems by 11 by 1045 trying to connect our council ipads in a council office to the council it system and it didn't work people were using their own mobile phones rather than the ipads and there's a there's an inbuilt problem and i think agile does have a serious problem so i think we need to get the in-house sorted first before we can have a look at this it's not fit for purpose thank you chair okay thank you thanks i'm aware those points were raised and there were people from it there were that was trying to help with that issue so that's the compatibility isn't it between the agile system and our ipads isn't it that needs sorting out okay thank you for that council banks thank you chair i'm probably uh going over a bit of ground here that council ibbitson's uh touched upon uh uh over the over the years because i've been a builder on my life over the years uh flinches uh building control has always had an admirable uh reputation for being firm but fair you know it's um same i don't think i mean well i shouldn't say really but um outside when i absolutely hate the competitive market when it comes to this item really do because it it's a it's a recipe for disaster because to i mean just for example if i as a builder and i'm not i can't say this would ever happen but i as a builder but it could happen if i as a builder went out there to an outside firm and i started giving them an awful lot of work at under building control obviously as time goes on you get familiar with them there's more chance of them being favorable to you with maybe letting turn on a blind eye a little bit to a certain item i mean some of them might be very offended by this but but there's a chance of it going on see so that's if it's back in house there's absolutely no chance that in-house because because the service was 100 cast iron so so that's that for that reason it should be in-house and so we've got eight recommendations here so how can we make it that our recommendations go as what we're saying here as we want to follow the the the scottish model or whatever it is where it's back totally in-house so we're how can we put it in some recommendation that that's what's supported to be pushed hopefully by cabinet for them to push for it as as that's what we want thank you chair okay council banks thank you for that um council everson um thank you chair um councilor banks might have stolen some of my thunder here um i wasn't going to propose an amendment to the motion um to that effect um because um let me say first of all that i warmly welcome um the cabinet members response to my earlier question um would he be happy to give uh this committee an assurance um that he will lobby the welsh ministers on uh that point and report back to this committee um when he's done so with with the outcome of that and welsh minister's response if he's happy to to give this committee that undertaking then i don't see the need to um to sort of move amendments and and turn that into formal recommendations i'm happy to take his word for that um on the second point um the chief officer has um obviously um addressed my earlier issue with the disconnect between the audit wales report and regulations for one and and the proposed actions um that we're being asked to support today um the benchmarking that's proposed in the actions um as i say directly conflicts with the audit wales report and with the regulations um and as such as this is us disagreeing with audit wales um which you know personally i've been voting against because i i don't see that it's appropriate for us to do that um especially on this issue um but i would move a recorded vote um on the recommendation on the basis that we are disagreeing with audit wales opposing to um i think that it's important that um in if we're going to do that um but it's very clear which way members have voted on that so i would move a recorded vote on that please chair okay before we go to that consider bitful and andrew do you want to respond to the earlier part of that question i'll certainly take it up with the minister when i have the opportunity to do so you know we do meet with the minister from time to time and i certainly i'll be raising that issue um which i'm just strongly in favour of anyway thank you okay andrew do you have anything to add to that okay counselor piers uh yes thank you uh i raised my hand to to ask the chief operator if he did have a response to counselor everton's comments that part of the action plan are in conflict with the audit wales report um whether that could be challenged or where the action plan does need amending i think we need some clarification before we take a vote on that thank you yeah by all means yeah andrew i think it's a sound response to the audit wales recommendations so the the action plan that we will develop will reflect i think the needs of this service to make the flincher council building control service resilient going forward picking up issues around uh lack of well worries around income generation etc and trying to pick up the issues around problems that arise from private sector as well so my view is that it's it's a robust recommendation okay thank you very much can i go to steve and could you advise me what the rules are with recording a recorded vote in scrutiny so the chair the a quarter of the membership of the committee need to um vote in favor of holding a recorded vote so that's the first step that needs to be taken chair of a quarter of membership so that in my calculation is three okay can i have um alistair ipson council house ipson's group asked for a recorded vote of uh at least three hands showing for a recorded vote okay i see two oh okay so richardson three okay and i can see council wakeham waving something is that a penny away we have here look look like a something a sharp implement then okay that's uh recorded votes then so um uh steve if you would um mind doing the business on that absolutely yeah right so if i go through in the order our political order and if you can confirm i'll just say yes or no as opposed to the um i'll record those for you so if we start with council glen banks so is this a recorded vote on what we've what's the recorded vote on steve please i'm sorry can't represent just just clarify your points on the recorded vote sorry um so the recorded vote is on the substantive motion in the agenda papers um so i can read that read it out if that would be um convenient chair or i can do that whichever yeah so the vote is it whether members are in favor or not so yes in favor no not in favor of the recommendation that members note the outcome of the audit wells report and supports the actions to be taken to address the four recommendations made for local authorities so yes in favor yes no not okay thank you council buckley yes uh council coggins cone i think has had to leave because he was having zoom issues so i don't think he's returned as yet so he will skip that one um council christophine is he present i don't see him on the screen okay must have gone um council rey hughs you want to put hand up the s you're on mute council hughs is he frozen yeah we'll cool we'll come back to council he may have frozen so she's having some technical difficulties this morning um council mckillan abstain okay um council picky perfect yes council mike piers update uh counselor bitston against counselor david richardson and counselor oatman abstain counselor hughs you're you seem to be back so we can take your vote yes yes yes okay all right so i will tell them so one two three four all right so i get that there's four yeses four abstentions one against so therefore the um recommendation is passed chair okay thank you very much um okay so that recommendation uh so we just it's passed and so that concludes agenda item eight so just finding my right page here i'm sorry if anybody's hearing noise in the background we've got some some people cutting hedges in the background here so it's a little bit distracting agenda item nine destination management plan and they're bringing in the chief officer please thanks chair and just to say an agenda item eight that one as i said is going to cabinet next week so we will reflect the the conversation at this committee at the cabinet meeting next week uh agenda item nine is also going to cabinet next week so we're looking for the panel the committee's views on the destination management plan and tourism does play a significant role in the economy of flintshire and what the destination management plan tries to do it build upon that over the next couple of years i've got my colleague richard jones who's been heavily involved in the development of the destination management plan with us today and i'll hand over to richard at this point thank you andy uh hi everyone uh say my name is richard jones uh i'm talking about officer at flinch county council i just thought i'd start by just giving a quick overview of what destination management actually is um and what it is is it covers all aspects of a destination that contributes to a visit experience trying to ensure that when visitors come to the area that their expectations are met consistently so that toilets are available that they're clean that parking's available and easily accessible you know how well could they find their way to where they were going you know how good was their food during their visit and obviously we have a number of key destinations you know across flintshire you know just you know i'm sure you're all aware but just some just some brief examples obviously we have talacra we have other coastal hubs with the quayle's coastal past our town centers the area about standing natural beauty you know heritage is huge with flint castle baby hill kai girly castle those are just the name just to name some there are plenty others um as andy mentioned you know tourism is important to flintshire you know just just setting the scene just to throw some numbers at you you know the value of tourism to flintshire you know tourism is currently worth 325 million to our economy it supports in the region of 3 300 jobs we have around 300 visitor accommodation businesses in flintshire and that equates to around 18 000 bed spaces um 86 percent of those are are in the caravan and camping type of establishments you know we have a huge a huge range up towards the north of the county around talacra that area there so just moving on to the dm plan itself the dm plan really it's a framework for tourism development and it can be used to access external funding the council together with the destination flintshire partnership developed this draft plan to take take collective actions forward across all the partners there is a list of the destination management partners in in point 1.04 within the report and the report itself is is is identified in terms of broad priorities and there's four broad priorities which are people skilled in employment which is looking at closing skills and employment gaps in the sector and addressing poor perceptions of working in the industry marketing communication is another headline priority and here we'd be looking to developing a clear brand for the area extending tourism into the off-peak season and encouraging visitors to explore beyond the most popular locations the the third priority is great product and places you know here it's focusing on things like development at the flintshire coast park and the place making plans which with colleagues our regeneration team are leading on you know supporting business investment and responding to the changing regulatory landscape for businesses and the final priority is partnership and engagement we're here we'd be looking to continue and grow our cross-border partnerships in north wales and northwest of england and with our local tourism and food and drink groups just thought i'd mention some things some good things are happening currently because there's a number of work streams that are underway which are already contributing to the delivery of this plan as i mentioned you know the development the flintshire coast part the place making plan there's a series of tourism grant programs that we've been able to access external funding for which helps business investment this town center events and activities funding the redevelopment project that theater cleared is obviously a positive one we've got the development work at greenfield valley and obviously the day-to-day promotion of the county on a local and regional level and just finally thought just useful to touch on the governance of the dm plan obviously it's very much a partnership approach you know park partnership working is key to delivery of this plan you know working to agree priorities and moving in the right direction towards what we're trying to achieve which is getting more people to stay overnight there's definitely value in that we always find that the spend the day visitors is in the region of 30 to 35 pounds but the spend of overnight stays is in the region of 110 to 120 pounds so there's quite some difference there so getting more people to stay overnight will be beneficial obviously we want to provide that good and consistent visitor experience and support the industry with improving the quality of what they do again which you know continues to meet people's expectations and overall just improving the awareness of the county as a visitor destination um so yeah that's it from me thank you okay thank you very much for that richard okay do we have any members wishing to ask a question okay Councillor Piers um yeah thank you chair thank you for the report the um page 69 uh section 102 uh talks about infrastructure and services to support um tourists visits would this include adequate toilet facilities yeah i know there's an issue with public toilets but the provision of adequate toilet facilities i think is important but it doesn't seem to be provided i i think it's on an adult basis that if it's available you can use it if not well it seems to be you know a bit of a problem there um 102 section four um how is the destination selected i appreciate you can't you can't sort of promote every area in every part of the county or can you i i don't know uh for example you know you could promote the the history of harden and the gladsden connection um you know it wasn't on your list i'm sure it's not a uh a finite list but i'm sure you know um whether local councils will make recommendations suited to the plan or to the organization um so what are the actual outcomes anticipated i know at the end you you're looking at a percentage increase a broad increase on various parts of this but um you know when you look at section 110 most of it most of this is dependent upon the uk shared prosperity fund if you look at the table everything seems to be dependent on that so how much is how much is the allocation of this fund for this particular scheme and and how long do you anticipate it would last and if it runs out what what we do then does does it cease or what what's what's your proposals for that and uh on page 72 section 201 i interpret that comment to be that development work on the destination marketing plan will only take place if external funding is available whenever that might be so there isn't a long-term plan um shown there unless you get external funding and if the external funding is not there does the development stop and finally um tourism tax impact it's in the small detail in the draft report but i would have thought it would have qualified for its own section within the preamble of the officers report to tell us about the potential impacts and the potential limitations on this um goodman introduced tourism tax thank you okay thank you hello richard yeah thanks chair yeah thank you council appears yes and good points there obviously in terms of of the you say the public toilets there's something where obviously we're in contact with our colleagues and street seeing in regards of the obviously be aware of the the local toilet strategy um you know appreciate obviously from a from a business perspective you know public toilets is certainly you know very important that they're accessible and available um so in terms of the local toilet strategy something we're in we're in contact with our with our colleagues and streets in on that um in terms of shared prosperity fund yeah good point it's um it does have a time scale um and you know in terms of where we are with that currently that is due to that funding is due to cease at the end of this year in terms of what happens next external funding wise is unknown i think i'm right in saying at this point in time um obviously as part of the part of that funding there are extra strategies that are being you know the flint jacobs park projects the town you know the place making plans and others the town center programs there are extra strategies that are being considered as part of those projects which will hopefully you know ensure that you know that good work will continue um in terms of the promotion side of stuff yet absolutely you know it's quite in terms of places to remote it can be quite open you know in terms of that you know you mentioned the hardened estate um you know we we've you know in terms of places that we can promote i think if they can again accommodate visitors in terms of you know parking facilities and i think you know we can we can certainly include that um in terms of the tourism tax again good point you know it certainly is a i would say from a sector from a tourism sector perspective has been a concern um when they when whilst government did their consultation on the tourism tax on the on the overnight visit to levy you know there was a lot of um yeah a lot of concern raised from the sector point of view on that so where that's at the moment is with whilst government are obviously um still considering how that would actually um look so take your point on terms of maybe that needs more you know highlighting earlier on in the report with more um the more emphasis on that so thank you can i come back to the one item please chair oh yep yeah thank you very much uh yeah interesting then that the shared prosperity fund ends in 2024 and if we look at the table on page 71 eight items there uh you know the majority is funded by this fund so once that ceases in 2024 what happens to these is the money there just to get them going or to support them during their lifetime can you just clarify that if we don't have this shared prosperity fund do a lot of these fall by the wayside or if not how will they be funded thank you yeah thanks councilor pia yeah no they won't you know i think i'd be right in saying they won't just fall by the wayside i think it's part of the you know they're at various stages so i think the shared prosperity fund is a revenue fund so that fund is being used to set these projects up is to help them um develop a little bit further so you know the fincher coast park uh project for example you know that's that's access shared prosperity fund to help develop feasibility studies to help look at how the coastal hubs could be developed so i think then i think there is a question then to be fair i think that you know in terms of what funding then is used to actually take them forward i think yet is unknown at this stage but you know i'm sure there would be potential parts hopefully that they could they could access for that okay okay council banks thank you chair um well first of all i'd like to mention i can't see richard any there's no actual mention of granada or tolaca in in this report that i can see anyway apologies if it is in there um because they do provide the massive amount of the football that comes in and um it's uh obviously if you've got that football in there it's um i mean i've put down here football numbers may well be impressive but what we need is that walker in the cleorgian range or the aomb we want them to spend time and and importantly more money here in flintshire as opposed to going anywhere else i mean a little example in tilaka in the summertime there's a there's an open top bus comes from denbyshire which takes them across the border well you know we maybe we could have one of them that takes them to to um the well in hollywood or greenfield valley or to the you know that's um why not why not have a tour that takes you i mean i've said for years saint winnifred's well is one of the most important items in welsh tourism and there's a car park there for about eight places and no coaches no coach park you know that's the sort of thing we should be pushing for for that mentions mining in hulking all very well and good we've got a mine that's been open for 130 years in point of air which has got massive history with it again not really a mention of it um on there it's um a few things with infrastructure uh i've mentioned this before in meetings and i mentioned it today the fact that trains can come along the north wales coast and cannot stop at i mean for a start i'll i'll go along with the greenfield one even though it's sort of very close to flint but mosling station should be open for freight tilaka there's already sidings there should be open as a seasonal train station so that people can come here and then you know it's um it's not it's not rocket science to know that that would mean less vehicles coming into the area and but you still be getting the people coming in it's a it's a to me it's a no brainer that we push these things for you know they're all about these are all things that are all interlinked with all the items starting to link in in this in these subjects we're talking about everything has um so you know the active travel routes opening them up i mean no mention of the we've got a couple of beautiful unspoiled villages in our area which have just happened to them i'll name you know bueno score surrounded conassa and you know the beautiful villages um i welcome the call that the new national park will hopefully envelope part of the um the uh tilaka warren and groen and june's area um we could do with i mean i know the committee of that name richard we haven't met for quite some some time so maybe as part of this we could start meeting again and it all doesn't really need to be interlinked between all the towns because yes you're going to get your day visitors you'll get your day visitors to webpad you'll get them to flint castle you get them to to bailey hill you'll get them to the well in hollywood but they want somewhere to stay and that's where tilaka and groen comes into a lot of this in our area i mean there's massive amount of of people who come there um one last mention the state of the a548 and i'm laying this firmly on the shoulders not of street scene of air grid i mean what they did years ago to our road and their refusal to put it all back they should they should be resurfacing that half that road for us right the way along from flint to groen that's what they should be doing and all these little things they take away from the uh if someone comes in as a tourist and you come along that coast road and you spend 15 20 minutes going over bumps it's not a great first impression um one last thing and richard kindly putting me in touch with lady the other day the wild flower the seeding that we have on the some of the roundabouts i live and represent the massive tourist area we haven't got any of these areas i mean we've got some beautiful locations i have put them forward in the past they never got touched upon then but hopefully they will do in the future it's all about what we did at um tilaka sense of arrival that's what it is so you want to give people a sense of arrival as they're coming along the coast you want to come along with a decent road and then you want them to see the beautiful wild flowers on the regular lay by possibly and just as you're going towards fun and grow you there's a lovely little roundabout in slacker which could be used as well so it's just about interlinking all the areas thanks chair i've said enough okay thank you for that councilor banks uh councilor everton thank you chair and um yes i certainly um back up uh councilor banks's uh comments about the stunning natural beauty of this ward is very beautiful indeed um one um point which is quite rightly um raised in the uh in the destination strategy is um second homes and the impact of the um council's decision to charge a premium in on council tax and second homes um whilst it's quite rightly identified in this report as a risk in this specific context um i'd just like to sort of reaffirm um that support for this um report and it um being noted as having an impact on tourism here should not be uh construed as criticism of that policy more broadly um looking at it in a wider context than just tourism there are obviously other factors in terms of council revenue and availability of housing stock which have to be balanced against any impact on tourism um and also the impact on tourism itself has to be um sort of quantified by members in deciding how to set that premium um given the lower intensity of local economy spend of second homeowners relative to short-term um visitors so um i don't require any kind of response from officers or cabinet members on that um just to note that support this report does not in any way criticize the imposition of that premium or the level at which it's set okay thank you for that council everton uh andrew um it's i was just going to come back on a couple of points that council appears raised and council banks raised is that's okay chair yep so with respect to spf and you're right to flag it up as a risk because it is time limited funding and the question is a right one in terms of well what happens after that expires a number of the examples which are flagged up in 110 where spf money has been forthcoming and i'll give you the example of greenfield well what's been funded there is development work to work up a building a business case for future external funding bids so for greenfield value for example i think the work that they they'll do over this year will put them in a good place to make a bid into heritage lottery fund going forwards i think that's the direction that they're going in so it's not money that's lost for example but we can't guarantee obviously that the hlf money would come forward at that point though they do have a good legacy as the council does of attracting uh hlf money and my second point is about a point that uh council banks just mentioned in passing and that's the proposed national park which we've had mention of and it's just a commitment that when we get the official consultation and it'll be just on the bound proposed boundary of the national park we will bring a report forward to this committee when that happens i can't imagine it's going to be within the next six months but it's just a commitment there that members will get the opportunity to comment on that proposal when we get it that's all chair okay thank you very much um richard i'll bring you back in in a second um but council richard can you put your hand up now yeah thanks chair it's just uh i know i notice we're sort of relying on funding for the for the destination strategy strategy but i think we should be making inroads on creating our own revenue as well so for example i've i've just been in and we'll see to go and park on liquid beach 12 pound a day if i want to go and visit delamere forest it's eight pound a day everybody in the world can go to wepa park in collinskey and park free there all day are we any plans to sort of create revenue of our own there's a million places i can think where visitors from the widdle from cheshire they come and visit us but they do it for free everywhere that i seem to want to visit i pay to park and i i will pay to park because i you know it won't stop me going to them places i just think we're missing out there as well thank you okay thank you for that um richard you want to come back yep that's great thank you thanks yeah yeah good point council richardson yeah i cannot it's a good question if i could um take that on board i could take that away and um i can liaise with colleagues obviously um places like wepa park as you use for example you know is the dark countryside services and obviously maybe colleagues and streets in as well so yeah i could take that away and come back on that please chair that would be good okay richard do you have any responses on any of the other comments raised by council appears council banks sorry chair i just lost you there sorry sorry i said do you have any other comments that raised by council appears or banks sorry yeah just on council what just going back to what council banks um fuchsteiner yet you know absolutely you know just to reaffirm that lacquer and granite is very you know very important from a tourism sector point of view so you know happy to um outside of this meeting council bank they are happy to have a chat and maybe like you say we could um you know look at kind of bringing back those types of um those types of meetings that we've had in the past and yeah more than happy to do that thank you for that offer appreciate that okay uh any other comments from members no if we'll move to the recommendation on page 69 the members considering endorsed the draft destination management plan can we have a proposal okay proposed can i have a seconder second okay and can we have a show of hands of those in favor please okay that's carried thank you very much and that concludes the meeting today of the environment committee thank you all very much for your attendance thank you thank you

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