Transcript
Okay, we're live streaming, thank you. Okay. Afternoon colleagues, welcome to the June
meeting of the SACRA. Can't believe how quickly the academic years fly by. I've had a number
of apologies, so Marina, because I've had apologies from Councillor Day for the start
of the meeting, as vice-chair I will be asking you therefore to be acting chair for the meeting
until such time as Councillor Day hopefully will be able to join us. I've had a number
of apologies which, if you want chair, I'll move straight on to those because it does
therefore alter potentially the arrangements for the meeting, or here's Jenny, in that
we do need eight from the three committees to be core at. Welcome Jenny, we're just starting.
So the apologies I've had are from Anna Stevens, from Claire Homod, from, well, we've hadn't
had apologies from Wendy White, but had declined the invitation, John Morgan, Councillor Paul
Cunningham, Robert Hughes, Councillor Roz Mansell. So as I go round the screen now, one,
two, three, four, five, six, we've got six. So the meeting isn't core at two, if there
are any decisions that are needed at this time of the meeting, we might move into core
as the minutes tick by, but certainly, you know, the meeting can go ahead
for information and assurance. So over to you, Marina. Thank you.
Okay, welcome to the sacre, as Clark has already said, for June standing Advisory Council today
meeting at four o'clock, if I could move to item two, declarations of interest, the code
of local government conduct. Any members have, are reminded that they must declare an existence
or nature of their personal interest, anything to declare. And then if we could move then
to item three, the minutes. How do you want to take these? Do you want
to take them a page at a time? Page five is the apologies, any declarations
of which there were none. And the minutes from the previous meeting have been agreed.
On page six, there was the analysis of inspection reports and criteria for co-option of members
to the sac. Page seven, continuation of the criteria for
co-option and the terms of reference were agreed for the Standing Advisory Council.
It was agreed to submit a draft consideration at the June meeting today. At that time, I
'm assuming we'll be postponed if we're not chorus. There was correspondence, Vicky referred
to correspondence from the committee, inviting us to the West Acre Conference next week.
I know that some members will be attending. And the clerk was to seek clarification from
the secretary as to how we would nominate a person from another sac rate onto our committee.
There was the diary marker for the West Acre Conference, which is next Thursday, the 13th
meeting, and then the date for today's meeting. Thank you. I'm just keeping an eye on the
screen moving around. I've still just got seven, because obviously Vicky and I, we don't
count Vicky. So as I've said earlier, if there's anybody outside that would like to come and
join us, we need one more, but we'll progress. Thank you, Chair. So there were no actions
arising from those minutes that aren't on the agenda going forward.
No. I ask for those minutes to be approved and seconded please. Thank you. Okay, we move
to item four, which is an analysis of inspection reports, pages nine to 12 in your document
pack. If I hand it over to Vicky Barlow, our Senior Manager for School Improvement and Education
and Youth Portfolio. Thank you, Chair. So hopefully members have
had time to have a look at this report item. Each term we bring a report to members of
Sacre and SAC on reports published in the previous term of the academic year. So this
report refers to estimating reports published in the spring term of 2024. And you can see
that there are seven schools, but actually one school, two schools are part of a federation.
So you can see there that two of the inspections were actually under the new pilots arrangements
for the new inspection cycle starting in September 2024 for maintained schools. So that was quite
interesting and useful as well. It made them a little bit of a challenge for me in terms
of the the layout of the report. So if members can just just bear with that, because obviously,
we will then move to the new inspection cycle. And I'll probably have to get my head around
how I adapt this report for you moving forward. But we've got to two pilots and reports and
obviously the pilots, so they're not finalised in terms of what they might look like in the
new inspection cycle. But it gives us a little bit of a flavour of how the inspection process
will be adapted from September. So you can see there that within all the reports, there
were no specific comments under learning relating specifically to RVA. Sometimes we do get specific
comments where examples are given. As usual, you know, some really positive, strong comments
are well being and attitudes to learning, particularly around the sort of the ethical
citizenship aspects of the new curriculum. And some really nice examples really giving
a flavour of some of the activities that our schools undertake with their learners. Teaching
and learning experiences, again, may not be specific reference to RVA. But what I do look
for is to make sure that the school is meeting curriculum requirements because RVA is part
of that, and that we're looking for a broad and balanced curriculum. Nice, particularly,
I think, under 3.2, you'll see there, particular reference to Conevin. And we know that's a
real focus within the RVA curriculum. We've talked about that in the past in quite a lot
of detail as a committee. So pulling out there about curriculum, under inspection area care
support and guidance, you know, we're well used now to seeing the references to collective
worship. And again, sometimes we point by exception, but also particularly given examples
and to illustrate how schools meet their statutory requirements to deliver collective worship
to learners. So there's some really nice examples there. Quite a bit of detail, actually, which
is really pleasing to see. Again, under 4.3, we've got reference there to an appropriate
sense of Conevin. And, particularly, Ascobril and Gualia, the Seven Wonders of Mould. So
really trying to, inspectors there, really trying to draw out specific examples. And
again, we've encouraged schools to make sure that they are putting forward to inspectors
examples through RVA and collective worship. And then under leadership and management,
I've tried to pick out some elements there around leadership that perhaps underpin some
of the work around spiritual, moral, social, cultural development of learners in terms
of that whole school ethos. And then moving on to page 12, in terms of the pilot inspection
reporting, you'll see there that reports are going to change quite significantly in terms
of sort of main findings, really, rather than having so many different particular areas.
So I've pulled out as many examples as I can there. One of the points, really, that I'll
be sort of looking forward to having a look at in more detail when we get the new inspection
cycle up and running is actually what sort of information we do get around collective
worship, particularly, because you will see there from the two pilot inspections, the
detail that we're perhaps been used to getting around collective worship in previous inspections.
Now, there are only two inspection reports, so I wouldn't want to sort of draw any conclusions.
But I think if SACRA and SACRA members are happy, that might be something I might perhaps
have a little bit more of a detailed conversation with our Esten Link inspector, really, just
to make sure that we can, as SACRA, be assured around collective worship, particularly moving
forward, there is a section in the new reporting cycle around statutory compliance. I'm not
quite clear whether that's going to be by exception. So if schools didn't meet collective
worship requirements, for example, would that be referenced under the statutory compliance
bit? So if SACRA members are happy, obviously, got the content of the report, if you've got
any questions around that, but also perhaps a suggestion that perhaps at the next SACRA
meeting, and SAC meeting, that I perhaps bring you a little bit more of an update about the
new inspection cycle, and how that particularly relates to RVE and collective worship. Thank
you, Chair.
Thank you, Vicki. It's very evident from the reports you present that there's a real strength
in the breadth of the curriculum being offered in winter schools, and that they're very much
focused on inclusion, equality and wellbeing, not just the pupils, but staff as well as
schools as a learning organisation together, which I think is a real strength of Lynch's
schools. So thank you.
Item six. Sorry, does anyone have any other comments for Vicki or any questions?
Councillor Merrid?
Thank you very much. I'd just like to commend the hard work of the schools to get these
positive S2 reports. It's a true testament to the work that they're doing in conjunction
with you as officers and with Guare as well. So I'd just like to formally thank you all
for the hard work that you've been putting into these to get such positive results.
Perhaps I should have also just reminded committee that we do then write to the schools following
the SACRA meeting and thank them for the work on behalf of yourselves as a committee and
actually include the information that we've included in this report here because I think
it's really important that we we celebrate those aspects and it's good about it's good
to remind schools that actually, we are here as a committee, you are here as a committee
in terms of looking at RVE and collective worship. So Dale, thank you.
Thank you Vicki. Item five feedback from the SACRA meeting on the 5th of March. Is that
back to you possibly Vicki?
I think it is chair. Thank you. I've been pretty quick on this actually, because I have
circulated, Janice as I Clark circulated the minutes earlier this month. So the minutes
refer to the last SACRA meeting, which was the 5th of March. Obviously quite detailed
minutes SACRA meetings, as we know, were very, very helpful, very informative. And again,
I'm very grateful to committee members for giving up time to attend those meetings to
represent Flintshire. I'll be in touch about the the summer meetings as well and making
sure that we we have attendance there. Sort of sort of the main themes really picked up
in those minutes. We've had a discussion previously about the annual report. So you know, as you
know, committee, we, we produce an annual report each year, that has been the same structure
for many, many years. I think I've been doing this now for over 20 years, and it's definitely
been the same structure for that period of time. And obviously, we've got you know, new
curriculum, new legislation. So the Welsh Association of SACRA is the national advisory
panel, we're working with Welsh government to have a look at, you know, what an annual
report might look like moving forward. So that's a piece of ongoing work, quite a lot
of information in the meeting around the professional learning resources. So just to reassure members
that that national piece of work is ongoing, in terms of developing resources that will
support schools in delivery for religion, value and ethics. And I can see colleagues
around the table have been involved in that work as well. So the playlists on hub, obviously,
there's a very structured process of moderation before they are finalised and released. But
there's a there's an ongoing programme, programme around that pleased to know as well Kim that
there's a programme there for governors as well, around our VE as well. So that piece
of work is very much with the Welsh Association of SACRA and NAFRE to make sure that we're
having those conversations about actually what do schools need to make sure that we
are implementing the curriculum. And we've put that open invitation, haven't we, in our
agreed syllabus to schools to give us that feedback if there are resources or resource
gaps that we feel that we need. And so, Jane Borthwick meets with our primary RVE coordinators.
And Lynn, who's not here today, but Lynn chairs our secondary heads of RE forum, which sits
across Wrexham and Flintshire schools. So we're getting that feedback from a Flintshire
perspective, if schools feel that there are any gaps, and obviously, we then feed that
into national resources. And I know Jenny, in terms of the work of the diocese as well,
you know, that conversation is ongoing in terms of producing resources. And one of the
presentations at the last WASACRA meeting was actually on objective critical and pluralistic
RVE and I know Jenny, you were part of the team that was, that was is working on that
piece of work as well. Reference chair you've already made to the WASACRA conference next
week is really exciting. I can't tell you how exciting it is that we've got that back
up and running again, particularly since COVID. Particularly, you know, it's going to be face
to face, it's a real opportunity to, you know, to see people again, and to really celebrate
the work that has been ongoing with RE and RVE in that transition. And as the chair said,
the opportunities that our schools have through the new curriculum to really provide valuable
experiences in RVE. So really looking forward to that next week. And I know some members
may also be joining as well, and that's being held in Wrexham. And we there's an update
in the minutes around qualification changes. Obviously, there are ongoing discussions around,
you know, GCSE changes moving forward, and the suite of qualifications and the discussions
around what choices will be there for key stage four. And there was also then an update
from Estyn regarding the new inspection cycle. But as I said, in the previous agenda item,
I want to drill down a little bit more now specifically to what will it look like for
you as SACRA and SAC members in terms of RVE and collective worship, and in terms of your
role of monitoring and having that assurance that schools are meeting their statutory requirements
for collective worship, and understanding the breadth and depth of provision for RVE
within schools as well. So I will follow that up for the next meeting as well. I think those
are the main points, Chad. I don't know if anybody had any particular questions around
those minutes.
Thank you, Vicky.
Hang on. Sorry. Sorry, Vicky. Sorry, Kim. Thanks, Vicky. I just wanted to say yes. We're
very fortunate on our SACRA because we've got quite a few of our members who are really
involved in some of the work going forward for the WASACRE conference. So thank you for
saying my name, but really I'm just facilitating. So we've got Amira who's been doing an awful
lot of work on the non-religious philosophical convictions. And Marina is actually presenting
at the conference. Aren't you, Marina? So how amazing is that for a SACRA to have so
many members involved in the WASACRE conference?
Thank you, Jenny. A little bit nervous. Thank you for the reminder.
Item six, which is the draft terms of reference to the Standing Advisory Council, pages 13
to 20 in your document pack, which is prepared by Kim Brooks, our Senior Manager for Business
Support and School Governance, Education and Youth Portfolio.
Thank you, Marina. You'll be fine. You've managed this rowdy group really well. You'll
be fine managing the national, presenting at the national forum. Thank you. I'll put
my hand down whilst I talk. You will recall this has been probably two, three terms in
the making. And what I've tried to do in the draft terms of reference there, forgive me,
my personal style is I don't like tracked changes. And I think when we have such a small
number of pages, I think track changes can make it look quite clunky and untidy. I accept
in a large document, you need the track changes. So if I can just highlight where the main
changes are to the terms of reference, as Vicky said, the annual report has been around
for probably two decades. And when I trawed through history notes, our terms of reference
for the original SACRA has been around certainly since as far back as 1996 with Flincher because
it's in the Flincher constitution. So the main changes are to committee A, which is
increasing the membership of committee A. There are no changes to which are the religious
and non, is it the religious and what have I said? Let me just come back to my, what's
the correct title? Have I used religious philosophical conditions? Yes. Thank you, Vicky. I can't
scroll down. So that's the change in committee A. Committee B, which is the schools and colleges
representatives, there's no changes in membership proposed there. And likewise, no changes in
the numbers of elected members. It also goes on to, I think, explain and be a little bit
more prescriptive around how we make best use of co-opted members. The original SACRA
terms of reference does say we shall consider co-opted members, but then was quite silent
on what are we looking for and how will they work? How will they function as co-opted members?
So there's a little bit more narrative around that, but there are no changes other than
perhaps some more clearer wording around how this group functions organizationally in terms
of appointment of chair, choracy, the arrangements and managements of the meeting. We don't want
to make heavy weather of those. I think they work perfectly well in terms of addressing
the business of the meeting. So there are no changes to the final bit, the organization
and management. So for those, I appreciate some members around the table are elected
members as well, are newer members. And whilst we share the original SACRA terms of reference,
it's an opportunity for all of us to remind ourselves, have a look at it. Does it feel
okay? It's written in a very traditional committee style wording, nothing wrong with that and
it's not a huge, huge document. But I think the main consideration for you as a committee
is predominantly around the change in committee A, because that is a fundamental change in
the committee structure. So in terms of the proposed timetable, which we did address in
the February minutes, was that this meeting would receive the consultation for you to
take it away. For any comments back to myself as the clerk, ideally by before the end of
term, we still speak in school terms, don't we? So that we can then bring back to the
autumn term meeting, what we are proposing as a committee will be our new standing advisory
terms of reference. The old and the new will continue to exist until the end of the 25/26
academic year. But having to work back from that because this committee is established
through the council's constitution because of the elected membership, the membership
of elected members, I need to get it through the appropriate committee cycle for the changes
to the new, which are brought upon us by statutes. I don't envisage any issues, but it's just
working back. So in short, Chair, homework for the group will be to any comments back
to me by the end of the school term. Councillor Dave has just arrived. I think he's just joining
us. Hello. Afternoon, Councillor Dave. And then I'll bring the final document back to
this group in the autumn term. So I'll pause there. I see Councillor Dave has just arrived.
Welcome Councillor Dave.
Councillor Dave.
I am sorry. I hate to be indispensable, but I am. This was the thing I've been involved
in. I'm really sorry.
No, that's fine, Councillor Dave. At that point, I was just sharing with the group the
consultation document and I was giving the group some homework. So it will be in the
minutes is to review the draft constitution for the new SAC with any comments back to
me by the end of term. And I will bring it back as an agenda item for the autumn term
meeting because this then will form your new terms of reference as a standard advisory
council for the following year. So, Marina, Councillor Dave was acting chair. But as per
our terms of reference, when you arrive at the meeting, you now take over as the chair.
And I think that's a convenient point in the agenda. I'll pause there. Are there any comments
or questions first arising from the terms of reference on the draft constitution? Have
I got any questions? Everybody happy with that?
Vicki has indicated and Hugh, I think also. Go to Vicki first.
Thank you. No questions, Kim. But I think probably just to point out that we have also
updated in terms of reference to the new curriculum and the legislation around that.
Oh, yes. Sorry. Thank you. Yes. Yeah. Yes. I relied on Vicki to give me the correct terminology
for the new RVE. Yes, thank you. So there is, as you said, there is that statutory changes
which we've included. And Councillor Parkhurst.
I think Hugh indicated. Sorry. I've lost him on my screen, though. Yeah. Hello. You dropped
onto my bottom row.
Always dropping off. You mentioned Category A as the major change there. Have we got any
choice on this matter? In terms of, well, the change being two from representative bodies
of non-religious philosophical conviction, isn't it? Whether we need to discuss or think
of people from actual religious conviction, are there faiths? Really? More than those
from a humanist background.
Okay, Vicki, did you want to come in there? If that's okay. Yeah, we did debate this a
number of meetings back and it was the committee did agree then that we would add two places.
But I think if you wanted to look at any other additions to Committee A, then that could
feed in part of the consultation. But there is an expectation that we have provision and
we did discuss that and committee did agree up to two places, two or three meetings back
in terms of non-religious philosophical convictions.
Yeah. Just to add, there are three there which we haven't seen for any sign or cite to them
for many years, perhaps. And whether there might be any, again, I'm raising this question.
We have to go after them, I think and see whether they want representation on that category
rather than just put it down there and nobody turns up.
Hugh, I am absolutely on the same page as you are as far as this is concerned. I totally
and completely agree that some many years ago there was somebody who lived quite close
to me and I used, this is when we used to meet face to face and I used to offer to actually
bring the person to the meeting and it still didn't work. And she was the named person
for a particular denomination. So I don't know. I think we have to just leave it as
one of those things that...
Well, well, Chair, if I can come back in.
Yes, please.
Yeah, you're right, Hugh. I mean, committee A is under the Wasakan national terms is it's
for us to determine what committee A looks like for Flincher's local sacra. And as I
said, that constitution has existed for at least two decades. Might it be that as a committee
we could seek comment and feedback from those representatives. Otherwise, they just sit
as a vacancy on our governing body. We could ask and then for a future meeting, you know,
going forward again, we could still reflect on what committee A looks like.
Just to add, yes. If we could actively sort of seek comments on that and any help that
you need to do that, then I'm happy to help as well.
Thank you.
Get in contact.
Do you think we need to talk to the actual, go above the individual rep?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think we need to, I think we need to be talking to whoever is nominating.
Yeah, whoever they're representing.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Because they're free to send whoever they, you know, they're free to send their own nominations
representatives. But for those of us on governing bodies, we now have sometimes it's difficult
to get nominations. But yeah, it's a named person. So I'll take that as an action arising
from that. Thank you.
I would think so if the committee agrees. Does everybody agree with that as an action?
I'm seeing lots of nods, which is helpful. But this is a statutory committee. Surely
the body is concerned.
It's one of the statutory committees, Chair, yes. But the membership of it is for us as
the local SACRA to determine what what, how that reflects flincher. And it's, it's makeup.
It's, you know, because I would imagine, you know, the demographics here in flincher are
very different to perhaps, you know, more of an urban authority down south. So it reflects
the flincher demographic.
Yes. Okay, fine. Okay. Yeah. And Councillor Parkhurst, I see you've raised your hand.
Yeah, thank you, Chair. And first of all, apologies if I keep dipping in and out, my
internet connection seems to be very unstable this afternoon. Yes, my, my comments similar
to Hugh's really, but I wondered how the list of denominations has been arrived at whether
it is perhaps historical, whether there are other firstly Christian denominations, which
might be included, which aren't, I don't know if it, if those which are chosen are based
on census data or on numbers of adherence or what the basis is. And then again, whether
there are any non Christian religions, which ought to be represented on this, I think it
would be healthy to have as wide a spread as possible. Thank you.
Anybody wish to comment on?
Yeah, I can, I can pull back on that.
Kim, yes.
Yeah, it is historical as your question there, Councillor Parkhurst, it is historical. It's
been there since, since 1996. So my maths would say that's nearly 30 years, isn't it.
And again, part of today's, the consultation with you is there hasn't been any empirical
tying it back to census data. What, you know, what census data would, you know, would it
be advised, we look at is it number of representatives attending churches. So, so it's a valid point.
The Wales government, was it Vicky, the two that we've added are at the instigate because
what they were required to under the, under the legislation. So again, coming back to,
I can take that now as your feedback, Councillor Parkhurst, you know, as a group to consider
more widely who else it is you would want to as part of, of committee A, we can certainly
look to see what demographic and what statistics might be out there in terms of representation.
I mean, obviously we've got the main ones haven't we, the, the, the church in Wales.
I think if you looked at the population, it'd be church in Wales and the, the RC diocese
because they're the ones. And then we've obviously got the, the other representatives already
listed on the constitution. So that's been helpful feedback. You've done some homework
in advance there colleagues. So I can certainly take that away and Vicky and I can look again
and come back to you at the autumn term with what we've been able to, to, to find out following
your suggested lines of inquiry arising from the consultation. Is that okay, Chad? I don't
know Vicky, whether you wanted to, anything further to add on that?
No, I think that's really helpful. I think they're important questions. I think it's
probably fair to say we haven't had any approaches from any other denominations or any other
faiths to join SACRE and SAC, but maybe, you know, and in terms of, we, we had an initial
look at the census data in terms of you know, percentages. It's probably fair to say that
outside of Christianity for the, for the other major world faiths, they are smaller percentages
in terms of the census population for Flincher, but that doesn't mean that, you know, we won't
perhaps just try and have another conversation and see, see whether there is anything particular
that we can add. So it's really, it's really helpful to members of the committee to have
that discussion.
Oh, are we all happy as a committee that Kim takes this away and does as she's proposed?
Can I see some nods or some, yes, I'm, I'm seeing quite a few smiles and so I think that
is agreed. That's agreed. Right. Someone tell me which item we're up to. I think I know,
but I don't want to guess.
Right, Chair. Yep. Thank you. Chair, in terms of the running order, as part of this meeting,
we will need to exclude some public under the Local Government Access to Information
Act because we will be discussing personal details. It will need a mover and a seconder
to move that agenda item to be excluded because it concerns the member nomination for a co-opted
member of this group. But Chair, before we ask for that mover and seconder, we can just
quickly move to Correspondence 8 and 9 and then the committee clerks don't have to press
pause as it, as it were. So we're on number 8, 9 and then we'll go back to 7, Chair.
Thank you very much, Kim. You have helped me out greatly. So Item 8 then, do we have
any correspondence? Nobody is indicating. Item 9, you can see the future dates, they're
listed there on the agenda. So having got to that point, we now have to go to vote on
the proposal that the press and public are excluded from the meeting at this point because
the public interest in withholding the information outweighs the public interest in disclosing
it. Do I have a mover for that motion, please? I do. Thank you very much, Mairead. Do I have
a seconder, please? Do I have a seconder? If you need one. Yes, thank you. Thank you
Hugh. So could we vote on that motion, please? Yes, I see one, two, three. I see the majority
without any doubt at all. So at this point, we formally exclude the