Transcript

Please be upstanding for her Worship of the Mayor and the Worshipful Party. Good evening and welcome everyone to this evening's Borough Council meeting. I'd like to welcome members, officers, members of the public and those watching at home. I'd like to remind everyone to put their phones on silent if they haven't already done so. I also want to remind members that they cannot use social media during the meeting, but the public can. I'd like to check that everyone has the following agenda documents, the main agenda and the supplementary agenda. Thank you. May I remind all members that debate should be done through the Mayor and without interruption. I would like to make sure that council meetings proceed fairly with opportunities for everyone to speak without disturbance. And on that subject, I think it's a good time to remind us all that we are formally committed to civility and public life. I would like us all to set a good example to others. So, whilst it's fine for us to disagree politically, we must always do so in a respectful manner. I know I can rely on members to remember this when contributing today. And may I also remind you that points of order can only be about breaches of the Constitution or law. Thank you. We'll now move on to the first item of the agenda. Thank you. Apologies for absence have been received from Councillors Aksa Ahmed, Lily Barth, Samir Chowdhury and Tony Lukey. Are there any others, please? Councillor Stroudtap. I have apologies from Councillor Sukmir Daliwal, Councillor Harleen Atwell, Councillor Hunter Chowdhury and apologies for lateness from Councillor Chopra. Oh, and sorry, and Councillor Jagda Sharma. Thank you. Are there any others? Lovely. Thank you. May I draw members' attention to the documents in the agenda on declaring interests? Could I ask if there are any declarations of interest? Councillor Gurren? Yes, yes, I have declared item number 19. Okay. Thank you. Because I'm my son. Thank you. Councillor? Ma'am? Sorry, yes? Item number 19. Thank you. Thank you. Could you ask them to say what the interest actually is on the matter? Okay. Could you say what your interest is, please? Sorry. In terms of that I'm declaring what the interest is? The interest that you're declaring, could you say? It's the same as Vishnu Gurren's. Well, I'm going to ask him again now as well, so could you tell me what it is? Okay. I own a number of properties. Okay. Thank you. And Councillor Gurren? It's the same. It's my son's property. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Councillor Juno? Yeah. I own a few properties in Dubois. Thank you. Anybody else? Councillor Gurren? I'm a landlord in Hounslow as well. Thank you. Yep. Councillor Gill? I own a few properties in Hounslow. Okay. Thank you. And, oh, Councillor Kiani? Yeah. I also own a couple of properties in Hounslow, please. Okay. Councillor Pritam Gurren? Same here, yeah. A couple of properties in Hounslow. Thank you. Councillor Mayor? Thank you, Madam Mayor. Yes, a few properties in LBH. Thank you. And Councillor Shivraj Gurren? Madam Mayor, myself, my son and my wife, we are landlords in the borough. Thank you. We got all those. Councillor Mishiso? I don't own any properties as a landlord. Thank you, Councillor Mishiso. Thank you. Okay, thank you very much. If that's everybody, we'll move on. So, Agenda Item 2. This first report is simply a request for members to note the outcome of the Brentford Eastern Society and Brentford Lock by-elections, held on the 6th of March, 2025, and to welcome councillors, Theo Denison and Max Mosley to the Council. Many of us will know both of them already, but on behalf of all members across the Council, I would like to welcome our two most recently elected members to the Council. And so we move on to announcements. Do any cabinet members have announcements to make? Thank you, Councillor Bruce. Thank you, Madam Mayor. My announcement is regarding the local plan, which I bought in a number of guises in front of the Chamber a few times in the last couple of years. Just a little bit of an update, which I said I would give if anything changed in terms of the timelines or anything changed in terms of the process that I bought before you when we spoke about this before. I just wanted to update the fact that at this point in the process, we had expected to have submitted the local plan to the inspector. The anticipation then would be the inspector would review. There would be an inspection in public, examination in public during the summer, and adoption would take place, all being well, adoption would take place by the winter. Due to a number of things that have come out from the Regulation 19 consultation, nothing serious at all, but simply the fact the weight of evidence and a number of things that need to be checked through. It was advised that we need to take a little bit of a pause, a little bit of a gap on this. Actually, this will be submitted by June at the very latest, which means it pushes back or potentially pushes back the ultimate adoption date. By June, this will be submitted. By the autumn time or late autumn, we should be in examination. Then hopefully in February, March next year, if all being well, that is when it will be adopted. Just a quick update on where we are in the process. Thank you. Thank you. We all look forward to working with you, both through this forum and others. So welcome. Okay. If there are no other announcements, we'll move on. Thank you. Agenda item four, petitions. Are there any new petitions to present? Councillor Cameron. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I have a petition from the Tudor State residents regarding the removal of e-bike parking bay in Elsbeth. Thank you. Thank you. Are there any other petitions? Are there any other petitions? Right. That's lovely. We now move to the second part of the process. We have no petitions for consideration at the council meeting this evening. So now I may ask members to note the petitions listed in the report and also in the supplementary agenda. Thank you. We now come to agenda item five, which relates to the council's transport policy. I would like to invite Councillor Dunn to propose and introduce the report. Thank you very much, Madam Mayor. I'm very pleased tonight to introduce our new transport strategy for the borough. Transport affects everyone who lives, works, studies or visits the borough. The new transport strategy sets the council's strategic ambition for travel in the borough. We want it to be safe, efficient, inclusive, healthy, clean and green. The new strategy establishes four focus areas for delivery going forward in order to enable safer and more accessible journeys, to develop healthy places so people can live well, to improve our local environment and respond to the climate emergency and to support a fairer, growing borough by improving sustainable travel. Our borough is growing, with a 24% increase in daily trips expected by 2041, which equates to an increase of approximately 110,000 new trips per day over and above the 461,000 trips that we saw in 2022 to 2023. The transport strategy, therefore, provides us a framework to guide all the transport investment within the borough and the governance framework for decision-making. It's an update to the current transport strategy, which was adopted in 2019, and is needed to reflect changes in the borough over the last six years, of which members will be aware there have been plenty. The transport strategy update provides us with an opportunity to set out our ambitions for transport in the borough and is strongly aligned to each of the six corporate plan pillars. In particular, it will help to deliver a greener, healthier, thriving, safer and livable borough. Some of the key drivers for our refreshed transport strategy arise from our other work within the borough. So, for example, our equalities and diversity work. The transport strategy will support us in making a fairer and more equal Hounslow. We know that poor access to transport disproportionately affects some groups more than others, and the transport strategy is reflective of these needs and puts forward solutions and mitigations. The transport strategy will also support our work combating the climate emergency and helping us to deliver our climate emergency action plan. Transport and travel contribute approximately one-third of all of the carbon emissions for the entire borough. It is the single largest source of emissions. Public health is another important strand of work that will be supported by our transport strategy, supporting our health and well-being strategy by increasing levels of physical activity through encouraging active travel and also decreasing harmful emissions from vehicles on our roads. The strategy will achieve the following objectives for transport in the borough. We will make transport safe. This will be achieved by ensuring people feel safe when travelling around the borough, both in terms of personal safety, but also delivering on the Mayor of London's Vision Zero, which aims to achieve zero facilities and severe injuries on the roads of London. We will make transport efficient by enabling growth in the borough to support new and existing communities, new homes and jobs, and ensuring that our transport network is comprehensive to support the journeys that will be needed. To do this, we must enable a shift to higher capacity modes, reducing our demand on private cars on the road network. Our strategy will be inclusive, ensuring that places are accessible, that infrastructure and information is designed to accommodate users by reducing barriers to all modes of travel, regardless of age, ability and income. And our transport will be healthy, clean and green. We will achieve this by reducing transport-related emissions, improving the quality and accessibility of public spaces and the transport network, improving health outcomes by removing barriers to public transport, walking, wheeling and cycling, through providing greater choice of safe and accessible transport. In developing our strategy, over the last year, we have listened and collected residents' views to help us develop our strategy. People told us what was important to them. They said they wanted more tube and rail stations to have step-free access. They wanted safe and accessible public transport. And they wanted more frequent trains and buses to serve different journeys. They also want less congestion, particularly around schools, improved safety for walking, wheeling and cycling, more greening and street trees, and more electric vehicle charging points. And I will end there. Thank you very much, Madam Mayor. Thank you, Councillor Dan. Councillor Radramat, would you like to second the report? Yes, Madam Mayor, I'll second and reserve my right to speak. Thank you. I'd now like to invite members to comment. Councillor Thompson, please. Thank you, Madam Mayor, and thank you, Councillor Dunn, for bringing this to the meeting. Look, we all want a borough that moves efficiently. But I have to say that this transport strategy feels less like a road map and more like a lost sat-nav stuck in the Triswick roundabout. It's big on aspiration, we've heard some tonight, but short on action and, frankly, tone-deaf to the concerns of many residents. So let's start with the vagueness. Targets are set for 2041, 18 years away. By that time, half of us are probably retired and the rest of us will be trying to work out how to pay off the cost of implementing this plan. They want to boost sustainable travel from 63% to 71% by 2041. Fine. But how? There's no road map, just fluffy language like partnership and encouragement. This is not planning. It's wishful thinking with a council logo stuck on the front. And then there's the 858 million black hole in the budget. As the quote from the report says, this is a substantial gap. We must seek new funding sources such as climate bonds. Well, to say that this is vague is like calling the traffic on Chiswick High Road a bit of a wait. On to LTNs, or as they've now yet again been rebranded, people-friendly streets, which is just clever PR for blocking roads. In South Chiswick, it proudly claims that traffic is down 51% on one road. Well, it would be, wouldn't it? Because there's a camera there, and if you drive past it, you get a ticket and pay £60, £80, or £120. We don't mention, though, the gridlock and the increased congestion on the next road. It's not traffic reduction. It's traffic displacement. It's like sweeping your mess under the carpet. These schemes are divisive. Residents weren't properly consulted, and yet the council is doubling down. More restrictions, no clear measurement, no plan, no balanced approach. And then there's this gem in the report, that cars are only driven 4% of the time. Well, by that logic, my kettle at home is only used 1% of the time. Shall I ban tea and coffee in the Thompson household too? Let's not forget that 50% of residents in this borough own a car, and for many of them, it is a lifeline for work, for family, for mobility. And this strategy just really treats those people as a problem to be managed and not a reality to respect. What I'm surprised is missing from this policy is any sort of plan or idea how we prioritise and improve traffic flow in the borough. That would mean reviewing all those junctions and traffic light timings. It would mean stopping road designs that deliberately slow traffic down. It would be about cracking down on mismanaged roadworks. It would be about improving signage and real-time information to help drivers and avoid hotspots. Better traffic flow would mean faster journeys, less pollution, and a borough that works for everyone, not just cyclists or campaigners, important though they are, but businesses, families, and key workers too. This strategy also just tiptoes around Heathrow. It's only mentioned in one section, there the vague reference to surface access. Let's be honest, this airport as it is now already causes noise, air pollution, and massive congestion in our borough. This strategy over-promises, under-delivers, and dodges the tough questions. Our residents deserve clarity, choice, and protection from overreach. So let's scrap the waffle and deliver a strategy that serves all of Hounslow, not just the loudest voices on social media. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Thank you, Councillor Thompson. Councillor Mishiso? Thank you, Madam Mayor. I wasn't going to speak, but I've decided I will. So I want to congratulate the lead member from the Cabinet for another masterclass in spin. Yes, this is another tick-box consultation, in which, as far as I can see, even though this is a statutory document that you must bring to the Cabinet, the way in which the consultation has claimed to be expansive is indeed questionable. The claim is that they've consulted across the borough. But just look at who they've actually consulted when you look at the responses. 165 actively engaged responses, ladies and gentlemen. That is, when you compare it to the fact that we have over 100,000 vehicles in our borough and nearly half of Hounslow's household, as Councillor Thompson says, own a car or a van. And with the changing dynamics and of, especially after COVID-19, where residents now are choosing to perhaps work from home, this strategy does not actually fit those needs of our residents. 30% of our working class or working age residents now drive a car to work. 2.5% do a ride share to work. Only 8% use the train or tube. And 7%. And that's gone up a little bit, actually. 7% walk and just 3% cycle. But when you look at this report, it's all geared towards cycling. Where is the strategy for car users? If we want to be open to all modes of transport, as Councillor Dunn has said, if you want to get rid of all the barriers, let's make this strategy inclusive, not exclusive. So my second point, Madam Mayor, is our role as councillors and our role as a councillor is to set the environment for things to happen. We're not here to police. We're not here to set the rules and the coercion of how to get to work. We're about offering choice. Every resident should have a choice. If they choose to walk to work, that's their choice. If they choose to drive to work, that's their choice. And I think this strategy needed to have said that, needed to have a place where choice is there. But at the moment, as Councillor Thompson has mentioned, already we are stopping anybody that has a car from driving across some of our wards in Chiswick-Gundersbury and they're being fined. They feel guilty for owning a car. That is not right. That is not a transport strategy. When we look at the responses as well, most of them have come from Chiswick and Brentford where the rest are Hanslow. So the consultation is pitiful. It's small. It's narrow-minded. And it reminds us of the apathy of our voters and of our residents. We just looked recently at the recent local elections where the turnout was so low. Why? Because there's apathy amongst our residents because they're sick and tired of this Labour cabinet which doesn't consult. it seems to ignore anything that doesn't fit its ideology. Let's not pretend that they are a listening barra. The ship has already sailed. This is a rubber stamping barra pushing through its own agenda regardless of the views of residents that they claim to consult. What's the point of a consultation if a strategy that you have is already set in stone? You look at the questions that were asked at the storeholders. Four options. You only had to pick one of four. That's not consultation. One minute. Thank you Madam Mayor. Almost there. So if they won't listen if they won't listen to a resident a thousand residents who are asking for the dimming of the light not to be implemented how else how do you accept them to be listening to a hundred plus residents who have signed this consultation. I mean it's just it beggars belief really. So what we've seen here is a pattern of labour cabinet that uses road closures to enforce their ideology. It uses this so-called low traffic neighbourhood to impose their will on residents. It hikes up parking charges without thinking about the working families. It opens cycle lanes that are empty without thinking about flow of traffic. This strategy isn't about climate change or climate emergency. This is about control. Labour doesn't believe in governing by consent. It believes in governing by coercion. You can sit down now. Thank you. And lastly I'll go to Councillor McGregor. Okay. Okay. Since no one can see me it's important that I address Councillor Dunn with this document. I've been through it rigorously as one would expect because I have a background in spatial analysis for planning amongst other things. And the important thing about this is I've read it several times trying to look for a dimension about strategy. What is strategic about this document? Where is the reference point to the changes that are going to happen at Heathrow Airport? Where's the reference point to the closure of Hammersmith Bridge in which I'm deeply engaged in research at the moment? These are issues that affect our borough. But it seems to me that we're only looking after our own parish and doing that extraordinarily badly. It really does not make sense to create a transport strategy which talks about all the interstices and all the focuses or foci if you prefer when we need to understand exactly what is going to happen to our population as a result of some of the ideas here. Now this concentration on various things walking is fine. I'm sure the Clark's shoe firm will do very well out of that. Why not? I'm sure that other firms in that area will do well too including those that inhabit gyms and such places. The other issue about this is going to 2041. well I hope to be drawing my old age pension by then. I hope to but I don't think I'll get there with this transport strategy. So when we look at this I just want you all to face the facts of what we in Harnslau are facing. We are facing an indeterminate future, indeterminate finances. We need to wake up to the real concerns. I admire Councillor Dunn for presenting an optimistic approach. I admire the way she's presented this. I admire the work that's gone into it. Why not? The officers do their best. But it is parochial. It is not a strategy. Strategy comes from I'm afraid the boss Councillor Sadiq sorry Mayor Sir Sadiq Khan. There's glory for you. He's the man. And I'll give you an example. We in Chiswick found ourselves subject to, guess what, a TFL consultation about the Hogarth roundabout. The first thing that was presented to us was the fact that there was no accident report and no fatality report. Well, I've been in Chiswick a very long time and I remember the tragic death of a Metropolitan Police motorcyclist who was crashed against the Duralmin barriers on the western side of the roundabout. The TFL people who were conducting this consultation knew actually nothing about the geography or the layout. They did not realise that the A4 turned south. Now the A4 was the Great West Road. It turned south at Hogarth roundabout. They talked about ameliorating traffic. The consultation was faulty from the start and the lack of knowledge, I wouldn't say ignorance, I'd say lack of knowledge shown by TFL for the importance of traffic of this type in West London. It was actually supported, I'm afraid, by our traffic and transport team. They themselves did not seem to know that for example the mile, the street next to the River Thames, floods. It floods four times a month with the equinox tides. Minimum. Sometimes it floods more when there's heavy rain, sometimes it floods more when Thames water deposits loads of sewage on the banks. It's not a clever thing to do. One minute. TFL were going to have those roads blocked off and pretending that this was going to be an amelioration. The South Chiswick liveable neighbourhood, there's glory for you. It doesn't work. It limits people. The former director, assistant director of traffic and transport, organised permits for residents in my ward to be able to get about their normal business, but only them. I suggest it would be quite a good idea for councillors such as Councillor Croft and myself to be given permits so we could actually do our working business in these walls. No, absolutely not. Not having it. That was an officer decision. Not us. I want these things changed. I want access. I want value. And I want a strategy. Wake up. This is not it. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor McGregor. Councillor Bruce, please. Thank you very much. Excuse me. That last comment says it all really, doesn't it? It's not about us. They mean them. It's not about them. 2041. It's not for them. Focusing on 2041. It's not for them. What's it going to do for them? That's the focus of what this is about. I'll tell you what it should be about. It should be about my children, our children, our grandchildren, the future of this borough. It's about 2041 and 2051 and 2061. It's about the future we're leaving for our children in this borough. What type of future, what type of borough we want in all sorts of guises, but this specifically, under Councillor Dunne, about transport. I mean, they've dusted off the old playbook this evening. All the old comments have come out, everything accusing us of not listening, of not talking to people, of not understanding, but it's all about them. I need to be really, really clear about this. This Labour administration is not anti-car. What we are is pro-alternative and sustainable travel. You cannot look around the borough, cannot look around our borough, and be satisfied with the amount of cars on the road. It's been talked about. There are too many cars, there are too many journeys, regardless of any LTNs or cycle lanes or this. Before that, there were too many cars. Before that, and I have a car, I sat in traffic. That happened. This is not a Labour phenomenon. This is not something we've imposed. This is the reality. And the reality going forward is we have to find ways of helping people to find alternative travel, to support our bus network, to support our cycling infrastructure, to support walking, and those are the things that we, under Councillor Dunn, have put in place. Councillor Machincha talks about where's the strategy for cars. I ask him again, look around the borough, look at the road network. This borough, the country, is set up for cars. It is not set up for cycling. It is not set up for public transport. And in part, it is not set up for walking. But we have to take responsibility. We have to change that. And we are. It is difficult. There will be people complaining. There will be people not happy because the journey they took previously, that was three or four minutes, now maybe takes five, six or ten. I understand that. And I sympathise. It is tricky. But it is the right thing to do. Councillor Thompson said something very interesting. He said, we will be paying off the cost of this plan into the future. And I say, we cannot afford not to do this. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Bruce. Councillor Biddle. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Like Ron, I hadn't expected to speak, but I can't bear it anymore. I would like to know how you're going to measure the success of your targets. For example, how are you going to measure the increase in the proportion of residents achieving two sessions of ten minutes or more of walking, wheeling and cycling per day? What measurements have you taken to date to have a benchmark against which to assess the increase? Nobody's asked me. What assessment have you made of the impact on local economic growth and how will it have a benchmark for those measurements given the impact on top of this of the government's increase in employers' national insurance and business rates and the effect that they will have on local jobs? How on earth are you going to measure the impact of this transport policy when jobs are going to going anyway? I agree with Councillor Thompson. It's waffle. And I agree with Councillor Moshiso that it's spin. I agree with Councillor McGregor that it lacks detail. I loathe waffle. I loathe spin. I love detail. Overall it ducks the problems and comes up with ideological driven policies as others have said that ignore common sense and reality. It also patronises residents and it is unworkable. thank you Councillor Biddle. Councillor Giles please. Thank you very much Madam Mayor. I don't quite know where to start after that but I'll kind of ignore it because them and us doesn't really necessarily work for me. Because I'm actually really quite encouraged to hear that the lead member talks about the need for the transport policy to leverage insights from the EDI report as the strategy published on the agenda today had very little and no obvious reference to how this document would be supporting those with mobility issues or any sort of disability. To carry on the theme of vague terms wheeling is referred to but it's so vague that it barely touches those who may need or may not rely on wheels to get around so people such as those on crutches or otherwise or by using wheeling are we referring to cars and other motor vehicles because after all they are propelled on wheels. I know this is a tricky strategy to put together especially given the make up of our road and transport ownership in and around the borough. I know that this borough wants to get people out of their cars. One of the best ways to help that and encourage that modal shift is to invest in public transport not reduce and remove bus lanes or even bus services as I really lament the loss of the 27 personally. As mentioned in the report there have been investments made in Sion Lane and Ostley and that's partly thanks to previous conservative central governments. However this is practically useless when trains operate on an hourly timetable. That is something that we really need and that at other stations if you use a stick or a wheelchair or have a pram you still need to call in advance to make sure that the service is capable of managing the assembly of a ramp so you can actually reach the train when it arrives. Let's quickly move on to our great friends at TFL who in their Sage Foresight have decided it's a good idea to install advanced cycling boxes on the A4 for cyclists at Hogarth Roundabout. I'm a cyclist I've cycled that route. I do not want to be encouraged to go on the A4 at any point. It is a dual carriageway but speaking with officers from TFL they hadn't planned for how cyclists would enter or exit this road. Of course as Councillor McGregor mentioned earlier these were the same people who didn't realise that access is needed to a road is needed to Chiswick Mau especially when it floods. Moving on from that I'd love to see more of a ward level detail and breakdown on this to see where the easy winds are. We've got these averages. 63% are already using, was it 63% already use walk and cycle. But where are the easy winds? Where are the areas in our borough where there is a public transport accessibility level of 1B or lower which means that people are more than a 15 minute walk to at least one public transport access routes. There are areas in our ward, there are areas in the South Chiswick liveable neighbourhood where we have areas where it's a 1A but that wasn't taken into consideration. Where is that modal shift that hasn't yet taken place? Where is it that people aren't taking to their feet? And I assume they're non-motorised vehicles or they're non-motorised wheels. One of the things I did ask for when we were consulting on the South Chiswick liveable neighbourhood was a need to create more access by the river. As we are saying we are looking to the future. Actually a lot of the roads that we navigate around now may not be accessible in 2041. However there will be potential to have more access and travel along the river. We are at Chiswick Peer Trust looking at different routes around that but also we need better access to connect us across the river. With the closure of Hammersmith Bridge it's really impacted the east of the borough but actually if you go south it doesn't help much things either. And so there are opportunities. It would be great to see another crossing at Brentford or even at The Apprentice or by The Apprentice in Isleworth. There is potential, there is land that's owned that was primed for development prior to the pandemic. And so I would love to see some of that included with some of that data. Thank you very much. Thank you Councillor Giles. Councillor Mann please. Thank you Madam Mayor. I think this council is falling on from central government policies of showing a slight in hand. Central government made lots and lots of promises and that's what got Keir Starmer elected and then he reneged on a lot of the promises which I did warn about. And I think that this council is now no different. The policy that is being put forward, it cannot be a standalone policy for it to work. It needs to be part of an integrated policy along with central government because the air isn't just around houses and it's not just around houses that we're asking to do things because cars are travelling all over the place from Heathrow all the way down into central London. So we really need to have an integrated thought around it. And if we look at some of the key metrics that are being put in front of us, it's on page 45 and we're looking at 2023 and 2024 and what is extended up to 20, 20, 41. Council Tom Bruce talks about kids. My kids are important to me and I take it that your kids will be important to you. But in 20, 41, we've only managed to take off less than 500 cars a year. Look, from the 105,666 given to the 98,900, in 2030, if there's not going to be no petrol, there's no diesel sales, we would expect a much steeper dive and a much greater reduction. And that's not happening here in this policy and we're being asked to accept this just by not thinking and parking our brains outside the door. We're also looking at, look, nitrogen dioxide emissions from 710 to 50 tons. That's key. We need to do a lot more around that because there are carcinogenic elements. PM10s, Canadian studies have found that any people who are within 100 to 200 yards of a major road, they're getting problems with PM10s and PM2s which increase the likelihood of brain damage in terms of Alzheimer's, dementia and so forth. Yet, look at the PM10s. We've gone from 92 tons to 56 tons. A derisory reduction, a derisory reduction in 16 years. And that's after 2030. No petrol, no diesel. We're not doing enough. No way. And for Councillor Tom Bruce to bring out, wheel out the kids. Is this what we're going to give our kids? Half-baked, not delivering policy that we can't stand by. We're just lauding it for the sake of lauding it so that we actually make this council look as if it's doing something when actually, as a matter of fact, it's very retrograde. I think when you look at what central government has done, electric cars, no charge for road tax. Now, a charge for road tax. All the incentives are being taken away. Why would people want to change from diesel onto electric cars? We're not even putting enough electric points around the borough. Right? And I take it that our neighbouring boroughs are doing very much the same. Because why? They're under financial pressure. That's the key motivation of not delivering on this policy. One minute. Madam Chair, I will finish well before your one minute. Thank you for the intervention. I think that this needs to be reworked. And it needs to be a lot more aggressive. You know, we're not anti-car. Well, saying that's great. But then we're also anti-pollution. But we're not doing anything about it. Why is that? I think this needs to be revisited. It needs to have another look at it. As it stands, I shall not be supporting it, Madam May. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Mann. Councillor Gill. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Like my fellow councillors, I wasn't going to speak. But I thought I should speak. Thank you for the transport strategy. But looking at it, there's no mention about the railways anywhere. What about the connection that we've been talking for years to connect Brentford to Southall or connecting to HS2 or to Brent Cross? There's no mention of that. Or connecting to the Elizabeth line to make life easier. But there is... It seems to have just gone past. Anyway, that's my contribution. Thank you. Well done. Well said. Thank you, Councillor Gill. Councillor Rajwak, please. It's a very surreal debate. The Tories tell us we're doing too much. Councillor Mann tells us we're not doing enough. But neither of them have any basis on which they make those claims. Councillor Gill, you are aside. Thank you for your comments. I take those on board. But the rest of them, I mean, what on earth have you been going on about? A strategy is a strategy. It talks about a certain set of aims. It is not the end point. It is the starting point of yet more work. If you think that Councillor Dunn is going to sit down and go, well, this has been passed. That's it. My job is done. You're more deluded than anyone else. I mean, what on earth is going on? It's just absolutely ridiculous. I mean, you know, what the Tories tonight have shown us is what they are nationally as well. Absolute climate deniers. If they had their way, climate change would be all over the place and they would be blissfully unaware. Those rivers that are rising and flooding those roads that Councillor McGregor told us about, well, that would be across the borough and they would say, not our problem because we are against this. Councillor, I'm sorry. I'm not sure what you were trying to say. Starting with this is a starting point. I agree. We need to do more. We will do more. But, you know, everything takes time and everything takes a lot of effort. To give up just like that is just not acceptable. To say that it's done, you're not doing enough, I don't care, I'm not going to vote for this is really, really bad in light of the comments that you made and I think that is really, really shameful. No, look, this is a starting point. There is more work to do. This sits alongside a whole suite of strategies that we cannot ignore. They all work together and that's the difference in this council. When we put a strategy up, it doesn't sit in isolation. It sits with other things and I ask, request my car-friendly climate deniers over there to look at all the strategies and read them in totality before trying to throw stones. And, you know, Councillor Mishisho, your point that we are not a listening council. We are a listening council. For the party that keeps coming third in election after election, it's not us that's the problem. It is entirely you. Thank you, Councillor Rajawat. Councillor Todd, and then I'll go to Councillor Dunn to sum up. Thank you. Madam Mayor, I wasn't going to speak. I'm slightly nervous, so bear with me, but I do enjoy this double act in the front row over here. We listen. Didn't we listen when we installed the LTN? We gave 12 million PCNs to motorists. That was our gift to them. 12 million. And what did you do with the money that you got from the tickets? Well, I had no idea. There was no additional streets. There was no safety. Chiswick House. There we are. But that's a classic example. I mean, Catherine Dunn was held with fear over these 12 million tickets. linked to that, we have key premises, chemists and doctors in Grove Park. Key businesses, we've studied them closely and sought representation without success. These businesses are about to die. They're so crucial. They're so important, these chemists. The fascinating one in Grove Park, most of their customers come from Kew. And it just shows, when you start doing inquiries, a couple of examples. We heard from the Director of Adult Services about how poor our young children, young people get paid in the borough. So why is it necessary for you to pull out PCNs to the West End prices? Why must it be 160? Is that enough? I find that offensive. In planning, we had a home-based site came forward. I've heard time and time again people trying to get a job in Brentford where they can't get on the bus in the morning from Ealing. It's a long, simple problem. And yet, it took TFL to impose, was it three or four bus routes before the planning went through? Now, why haven't we identified that? If you're listening, give us some evidence. A couple of minor points, if I could, please. Catherine Dunn had the audacity to talk about charging points. I mean, I suppose I've got to confess there that you installed charge points that don't work. And you had to come along the road and cut out the words electric charge point. And we have people with cars in my road who were crying because they simply can't find a charge space. Use this charge. So, the director, or Catherine Dunn, to be fair, said she'll have them ready by 2026. But there's a huge void. So, on the basis of the evidence so far, trying could fight harder. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Todd. Councillor Dunn, if you could sum up, please. Thank you. Gosh, we're wearing for a treat, weren't we? Almost every opposition member spoke. I mean, I think those who, you know, from the Conservative group, I think there may be one or maybe more who disagreed with Councillor Thompson's comments, probably felt their hearts sink when some of their colleagues got up to speak. But let's start with Councillor Thompson. I mean, you're living in a fantasy world, I'm afraid, where we can increase traffic flow without decreasing the number of vehicles on the road. It just doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. And when we come to Councillor Mishiso, spreading myths that we are an anti-car borough, that we don't, that we're trying to ban people from driving cars, we're taking away people's choice. Everyone in this borough has the choice to drive a car if they wish to. But unlike you, Councillor Mishiso, I do think it is our responsibility to try to influence people's choices, to give them a greater choice, and that is what this strategy does. We are opening up choices so that more people are able to use public transport, more people feel safe cycling around the borough, more people can walk and wheel, which means in a wheelchair more easily. The Councillor McGregor, you know, you said a lot, but just to pick on one, you say that we agreed with TfL's proposed scheme. We put in a very strong response to TfL's consultation on the Hogarth Roundabout scheme. We did not agree with every aspect of that scheme. We agreed with the general idea of trying to make the roundabout safer, but we challenged TfL and we said we want a scheme that is much more ambitious and we also opposed certain aspects of it. We were very much in line with residents and indeed with opposition councillors there, so I'm really not sure where you were coming from there. But what it does show is the importance of consultation because following the consultation with the council, with councillors, with residents, with businesses, TfL have said they will revisit and revise that scheme. So that's a good outcome so far as I'm concerned. Councillor Biddulph, you asked some good questions about how will we monitor activity. Those figures come from a TfL survey that there will be ones in future that will show how things have changed. I'm sure it is referenced in the report. Councillor Giles, I absolutely agree, public transport is key and we'll be putting forward a much more detailed plan on how we will support public transport, acknowledging, of course, that it isn't directly in our control and we do have to work with partners so it's not surprising that partners are mentioned in the report. Councillor Mann, very glad that you want to reduce the number of cars on the road, that you want to increase, see an increase in that changeover from fossil fuel cars to electric cars. We are putting in 2,000 charge points. I have reassured Councillor Thompson recently and can also reassure Councillor Todd that is going ahead. We are about to issue contracts for the installation of charge points. Councillor Gill, thank you for your intervention but you're going to have to read the report again. It does mention rail, it does mention Brentford to Southall, it does mention West London, Orbital. One minute. Thank you for all your comments, your interventions. I'm very clear and last reference goes to Councillor Bruce because this is about the future. It's about now and it's about the future and creating a better borough for all. Thank you very much. Thank you, Councillor Dunn. So I'd now like to move to the vote on the recommendations. There are two to note and one to approve. All those in favour of the recommendations and those against and any abstentions. Lovely. Thank you. So that's carried onto the pay policy statement. May I draw attention to a small error in the agenda front page which suggests that Councillor Shivraj Gurawal is the relevant cabinet member for this item. The report is actually by the leader and so I would now like to invite Councillor Shantanu Rajawat to propose the report. Not as good looking as Councillor Gurawal, obviously. Thank you, Madam Mayor. The pay policy as members will be aware is a statutory requirement under the Localism Act 2011 which sets out our approach to the pay of our senior leaders and our lowest sorry, the relationship and the approach to the pay of our senior leaders and our lowest paid employees for the next 12 months. It's designed to be open and transparent about the way we pay our highest and lowest paid employees and it needs to be agreed by Borough Council annually just to reassure any variations to it. Within the next 12 months would have to be would have to come back to Borough Council for approval. To draw out a couple of details from this report for ease, it talks about our pay multiple. I can report that our pay multiple that's the multiple of highest to lowest pay remains largely stable at 8.7. The median pay multiple so that's the median salary compared to the highest earner remains fairly stable at 5.2 and again in terms of benchmarking that for the size and complexity of our organisation it does compare favourably with the pay multiple that is reported in both the private and public sector and also benchmarks favourably in line with our neighbouring boroughs such as Hillingdon, Ealing, Richmond, Hemsworth and Fulham and Spellthorne where the average current published median pay multiple is 5.5. Our gender pay gap so that's the difference between what men and women are paid on average was 3.86 at 31st of March and that compares against 1.79 in the previous year and the report does go into some of the rationale but the sort of small increase in our gender pay gap is likely due to the reduction of the percentage of women in our top middle quartile that's PO2 to PO4 and more women at the lower quartile that's apprentice to SO1 from 63.07% to 63.9%. Now we also in this report report on our ethnicity and disability pay gaps whilst these are not statutory requirements we think it is important for a diverse borough to report on these and as at 31st of March 2024 the median ethnicity pay gap was 3.86 which is a slight reduction from 4% in 2022 and our disability median pay gap was minus 2.9%. The gender pay gap report sets out a range of initiatives we are progressing as part of our ongoing commitment to EDI across the organisation and to draw out some of the highlights there obviously absolutely continuing to increase the diversity of our senior leadership through diverse recruitment panels at CEO and HMG levels our leadership at LBH EDI workshops were attended by 180 senior leaders and we continue to achieve strategic change to address inequity through directories focused on action planning our resolution framework which is a new framework went live in April 2024 and is making a real difference to how we resolve conflict in the workplace and then we've also led a management essentials workshop and we'll continue to develop training for new managers which includes our organisational commitment to EDI equality legislation EDI impact assessments and EDI in recruitment and with that Madam Mayor I move the report Thank you Councillor Rederat I'd like to ask Councillor Bruce to second the report and speak if he wishes Thank you very much happy to second the report and reserve my right to speak Thank you would anyone like to speak on this report Councillor Giles Thank you Madam Mayor I'm beginning to feel a bit like Slim Shady when it comes to this topic because I think I've spoken on it every year since I was elected in 2018 and in my research I actually realised I'm wearing the same jumper as I did last year that was obviously intentional so we'll see I obviously need a better wardrobe but there's much to commend in this report the aim to develop a flourishing workforce where our people connect feel they can belong and grow so that we can deliver outstanding services to our residents is one we can all get behind as are the desires to be an employer of choice where our community is served by people who live our values however I have to wonder at what cost we're all in agreement that we need to be prudent with employment costs and which is why as a Conservative group we have consistently made suggestions both formally and informally on how this council can work efficiently to deliver value for money when it comes to delivering services especially as one of the largest employers in the borough while we could get caught up in ideological debate on whether we believe in small or large governments or the role of the private sector when it comes to creating diversity of employment opportunities there is consistently one thing that we agree on and that is the need to be a fair employer where regardless of gender ethnicity or ability you will be paid on parity with your peers and like any organisation it is great that the pay policy statement is updated on an annual basis and creates transparency around the remuneration of employees specifically chief officers and outlines guidance for specific situations such as special severance payments and remuneration of the lowest paid employees I do however have some questions around section 5.6 which alludes to allowance payments for chief officers as it makes reference to the coronavirus pandemic but doesn't specifically specify exactly what has been changed or what is eligible it kind of would make sense to include it in there moving on to the pay gap report for 2024 it's great to see that for a second year this authority has published the data on the ethnicity pay gap and the disability pay gap I'm also really interested to see if there is a correlation between non-white women and seeing if we can get that data in future years because it's an indication of social mobility and opportunity in the borough as an employer we are such a diverse borough and it is only right for us to be representative of the people we're here to serve however looking at the data both our mean and median gender pay gaps are the highest they have been since 2018 and worse than that for the first time in a number of years our mean gender pay gap is higher than both the neighbouring borough and London borough averages and I have to ask why last year we were told that this was due to a reduction of percentage of women in senior roles with the loss of 54 in the grade PO4 to chief executive since 2022 so what's the justification this year we've not really I've not heard one this evening and while we've had promises of initiatives is there a reason why these haven't yet taken effect last year we were also told that the former chief executive had reviewed the top three tiers of the organisation so the upper quartile for gender parity and that the remaining tiers would be looked after after Easter was this analysis ever completed and what were the findings it would again be good to see that in here across the board these reports show that women non-white and disabled employees are paid less in the lower and lower middle quartiles with accounts which accounts for some of the discrepancy however in the case of gender parity this council employs more women than men at every quartile so the rationale doesn't quite add up last year we were told there had been a review for a model for leadership that would be more sustainable and meet the financial challenges of the future and be leaner at the top one minute and that the leadership competencies and a performance management approach and development has this been put into action and if so how long can we expect to wait to see the results that mean that pay parity is closer aligned across the board unlike an IQ test I hope that these models and initiatives allow for people with diverse backgrounds to demonstrate and pursue their ambitions in a way that rules out any unconscious bias by hiring managers after all we don't want to be ambitious for Hounslow we want to create an environment when more than just 43% of employees reply to that to the My Experience Matters Survey but I suppose if it was a public consultation we'd be absolutely astounded by that rate thank you okay thank you if nobody else wishes to speak I would like to ask Councillor Reguart to sum up thank you thank you Madam Mayor actually on this one there's very little that I can disagree with Councillor Giles in what she said actually the organisation is going through change and I think we do acknowledge that and the review of the lower grades that you mentioned is still ongoing it's due to report later on this year but also at the top tier whilst a lot of the things that you mentioned were implemented obviously there is change there as well and that needs time to bed in look I think what this points to Councillor Giles and you know I'm not for one second trying to disagree with anything you've said is organisations do change and they do flux over time and so when you take a snapshot at any given point i.e. the 31st of March it will look very different that's not to say that we should take our eyes off the ball and certainly in terms of EDI work and the range of strategies that exist within the organisation we are absolutely committed to keeping our eye on that ball and making sure that we get as close to parity as possible and that's not because we look good but because it's absolutely the right thing to do across the organisation so absolutely we assure you this is absolutely work in progress but what we're looking at here is a point in time thank you madam thank you councillor so i'd now like to ask members to vote on the recommendations it's one for noting and one for agreeing so all those in favour again please thank you and against and any abstentions thank you councillor man okay thank you everybody now i'd like to move on to agenda item 7 she's the members scheme of allowances and again i would like to invite councillor shantini rajwa to propose the report thank you madam mayor this is a standard report that members will be aware of we produce it every year you will recall a number of years ago i can't remember exactly when it's probably in the report we did a large review of members allowances both basic and sra taking into consideration the independent panel for remuneration that london councils convenes we have to have regard for it we don't necessarily have to agree with everything that's within it but we certainly have to have regard with it and we put our rationale a decision we made at that point was to peg any increases to members allowances to the pay award that our staff receive this report basically reflects that so there aren't any further changes beyond that apart from reflecting what the njc award was so i formally move the report thank you councillor radjuat and councillor bruce would you like to second the report yep happy to second and reserve my right to speak thank you and do we have anyone who wants to speak on this councillor biddulph please thank you madam mayor and i'm sorry to have to blow the dust off comments that i've made so many times before this is i think the seventh time and yet again i will be saying the same as before we agreed during the 2018 to 22 term that members allowances would be increased and councillor radjuat has just said this in line with staff pay each year rather than hiked every four years which was unpalatable to our voters i still agree with that in its most recent review the independent review panel that recommends rates to be paid to councillors recommended significant increases across the board urging councils to introduce them but this is not the time to do that and i'm glad the council has not recommended it residents and businesses are struggling with increases in council tax increases in utility bills increases in the cost of food increases in tube and rail fares and businesses will now also have to pay higher employers national insurance contributions and higher business rates april will indeed be the cruelest month for many these increases will damage perhaps destroy livelihoods councillors must not put themselves in a privileged position and award themselves big increases when those we represent are struggling as i've said every year whatever receive in allowances for our work as councillors it is an obligation on all of us to show our value to our residents and business rate payers the basic allowance doesn't compensate for the workload of an engaged hard-working proactive councillor and isn't meant to nor does it match hours spent and nor is it meant to it isn't recompense for time spent it is recognition of time spent even though it might be pennies per hour for some many residents think it is still too much no matter how hard a councillor works there is resentment among some that we receive anything for what we do when councillors do little voters have every right to complain and in one notable case in Hounslow this year after a labour councillor didn't even meet the minimum obligation for council meetings voters responded a by-election result returning an independent councillor sends a very clear message to the rest of us we were elected to work for those we represent not just take the money moving on to special responsibility allowances we have consistently questioned the role of cabinet assistant since it was introduced this role is identified in the independent review panel's list of special responsibilities but it doesn't mean it has to be filled in this council's case it now means that more than 75% of councillors receive special responsibility allowances when the independent review panel's guidance is that no more than 50% of councillors should do so as I've said before it smacks of buying support to shore up the leader's wobbly majority and I know that the new independent councillor of sign on Brentford lock agrees as he said so in this chamber during the previous council term when he picked up and endorsed my comment the percentage point isn't repeated in the latest review panel's recommendations but I have checked and it has been confirmed that the principle hasn't been dropped the panel wouldn't advise paying SRAs to more than 50% of councillors within a borough the cabinet role isn't cabinet assistant role cabinet role you could argue isn't essential it doesn't merit extra money it should be dropped use the money to fill potholes as we recommended last year instead of reducing road maintenance standards to the average for London Madam Mayor as I said at the start I'm standing here saying the same as before we must all work hard to demonstrate value for money this isn't our money it is our residents and our business ratepayers money whether we receive only the basic allowance or receive an additional special responsibility allowance we must demonstrate to everyone we represent that we are worth it thank you thank you councillor bid off councillor man please thank you madam mayor I think councillor bid off put a lot of background and sort of a lot of facts into what she says about the members allowances really I want to make comparisons with what we are and where we're going with this we think of Africa as being full of tin pot dictatorships I actually see them as victims of western economies and governments where they're saddled with very high interest rate paybacks on loans but the point I'm trying to make in all this mess there's come to light one gem and that is the interim president of Burkina Faso absolute power absolute authority he has decided not to increase his 228,000 pound is this relevant councillor yes absolutely absolutely absolutely madam mayor it is it is it is it is I'm getting there but slowly so he has absolute authority to raise it to whatever he likes but he chose not to do it now when I joined on the council and there are some members who are still here Richard Furt I don't see Jagdish I hope he's around people like Bert Ham people like Brian Price we always fought against increases because we were socialists from the heart we wanted to make sure that we represented the people and the people were put first what has happened in recent years there's been a systematic increase year on year on year on of members allowances when I joined the council I think it was 800 pounds you got remuneration for the whole year it's now being put to 13 and 13 300 or there about what it does is it puts the leaders wage packet at almost 60 thousand pounds a year that throws into question exactly what council bid off said in the eyes of the people are we worth it council denison is living proof that the people have voted that a lot of the stuff that is going on here isn't in keeping in what they believe and really there's been creations of posts what I call Mickey Mouse posts these Mickey Mouse posts are to make sure that the show goes on and the leader stays the leader and in reality there will come a time when that show has to leave town along with a lot of these labour councillors I await that time madam mayor thank you thank you councillor man councillor we are existing in a place where some councillors get a hefty allowance for simply sending one email that is not right our residents I'm sure will see that is not right allowance for sitting in a meeting an allowance for the so called cabinet assistant the argument goes that better allowances for our council attract a better calibre of councillors perhaps this is true perhaps this is the case but what for because those calibre councillors or great calibre councillors who come into this chamber we have two that would like to welcome back here today well for one I'm afraid once you come into the chamber you are at the whim of a very overbearing chief whip who tells you what to do and what not to do point of order this this is not on the subject and it's a personal attack and I think councillor shita needs to withdraw that comment immediately are you going to withdraw councillor mishisa what's the charge abuse of the chief whip madam mayor I'm just making a point what's the point of reference oh sorry I didn't realise you were talking about councillor emsley I really apologise okay if if we could all just stop and carry on with your speech thank you madam mayor as I was saying when great colour of councillors come into this chamber they are summoned to listen and vote according to what their chief whip is telling them that is not right if we are going to be attracting the best into this chamber we must allow them to speak just as you are allowing me to speak now madam mayor so when we look at this are you making a point on the topic can you stop my time madam mayor because you are interrupting my stop I'm sorry but you are can you keep your comments special responsibility allowance can I speak or am I not allowed to speak please continue thank you madam mayor so when it comes to this council we are asking about accountability and we are all in the same boat accountability is key and I have to give credit I pay credit to one recipient of the SRA special responsibility allowance as cabinet member who has done her very best in the last few weeks to prove her worth as a cabinet assistant and I want to give her credit for that but I think more councillors need to do that more councillors need to show what they really are worth so let's see more councillors please standing up and taking responsibility thank you madam mayor thank you councillor Mishiso councillor Denison please thank you madam mayor and good evening councillors it was only a little while ago I was speaking on this particular issue and I am particularly pleased to hear Joanna again speaking on this issue so ably and she is absolutely right in terms of the basic allowance I entirely accept that the basic allowance hardly compensates for the hard working and engaged local councillors that do exist on this council and have always existed on this council across several parties not just one however the simple fact is no resident believes that the basic allowance should be paid for councillors simply do not turn up and do not do the work either in terms of the meetings that they are due to attend or for the day to day grind in terms of the work that is required in every single one of our wards I I I I went to get a hair cut special hair cut just to treat you this morning it took me two hours to get back home because of the number of people and the number of dumps of rubbish in Brentford because this council is starting to fail because councillors are not doing their job and certain officers know that councillors are not doing their jobs and I hate to think what some other wards would be like because actually Brentford is not that badly served by its councillors but certainly at the moment it is insufficient action was taken by your group to discipline Balraj Sarai when he failed to attend these meetings and you have been punished in the ballot box for that but this is not just a day to day thing that you are passing through today this annual motion to increase your allowances it is a failure on your part to grasp the nettle in terms of accepting what Joanna has said about the cap that is recommended on allowances on SRAs as far as all councils are concerned 50% and no more should be paid SRAs and action should be taken today to get rid of those less than able less than contributing cabinet assistance and some of your cabinet members who are not pulling the weight action should be taken today to do something about the additional allowances that are being paid to area forms that you've invented but barely function and action should be taken today to get rid of the whips on all sides because the whips stand in the way of all councillors doing a decent job for their constituents not only do they stop them from speaking upon their behalf in the council chamber but they also stop them speaking up in front of the press and to their constituents how can anybody do a job of work when they live in fear of being deselected by yourselves and don't laugh because you absolutely know that this has happened and will be happening again this year how can they do their job when they do not dare speak up against any that they will not be a councillor if they do it again you should cut those SRAs and you should certainly cut the use of the whip to stop councillors doing their job thank you councillor Denison councillor McGregor please thank you madam mayor one of the key things about what we do as a council is we keep on reducing the number of meetings that councillors attend some time ago we used to have a minimum of 12 area fora a year those 12 area fora gave an opportunity to people to speak and to debate now the area fora were very local some were split delivery for parties some were single party but nonetheless people had to work hard in those days not so long ago while I was on the council so not so long ago we had two types of meeting one was a monitoring area form held every quarter and who turned up we had people from the civil defence the fire brigade and the police forces turning up to give us their report on the local area very often with someone like an inspector attending because it seemed to be important as a link to the in the monitoring we had other people coming along to tell us about the health service we had other people coming along to make complaints and we had an open session with the public I recollect that the Chiswick area form was very well attended and sometimes quite noisy it got even noisier when eight times a year we were the planning authority because we were the planning authority and that localism because of course they were taking decisions that affected people in their wards although they had to declare the position that they were the ward member for this particular planning application and that was good form so it was highly professional now Councillor Bidolf Councillor Mishito have made these points about professionalism well let's have a look at some history shall we councillors used not to get stipends because they used to be middle class and they were doing in their spare time we're still doing in our spare time but we're now getting a rather nice treasury addition every month and what do we do for it some people as we've heard from Councillor Jenison do a grand job they work very hard they're committed they're socially responsible other people are very not even speak to me when I ask them questions I'm not quite sure whether there's a barrier between me and councillors I try very hard to ensure that we all are in it together but the important point is if we carry on this way we're going to divorce ourselves from the public at large I don't resent in any way getting 60,000 a year because quite simply being the leader of the council is almost as onerous as being the leader of a large corporation after all we have a half a billion pound budget but the important thing about that half a billion pound budget is that I feel very strongly that those people who talk in the budget debates do not have sufficient financial knowledge it's not that they're ignorant it's not that stupid they just don't have sufficient or shortened to prevent embarrassment so we now have an ordinary debate when it should be a budget debate when every item on the budget should be open to scrutiny every item I'm very proud to say that in 2009 and 2010 when I was the budget lead we had open access to the budget in other words every item could be scrutinized and we went through the budget not line by line but section by section and that made sure that the officers understood that we were scrutinizing what they were up to because the budget is the key document Madam Mayor I've said enough about this matter but I do want people to understand that I'm with you all as councillors we are not to be disparaged for the work we do but like Councillor Beggos said we've got to justify ourselves every time and you can only do that if you do the work thank you Madam Mayor thank you Councillor McGregor Councillor Siddharth please thank you Madam Mayor I don't know why we are discussing this matter Madam Mayor we all are here today 62 of us anybody can write a letter to chief exec and say that they don't want an SRA it's very simple and none of them who just give a big speech have that courage to write a letter that we don't want an SRA and second thing Madam Mayor second thing they are raising is they are giving certificates that who is a good councillor and who is a bad councillor Madam who are they? they will be going to the public in 2026 and I can assure you half of them will not be here especially the newcomer who just got 400 votes and he is just today coming up that I'm a big winner and the other party Madam they came third and fourth thank you Madam Mayor thank you Councillor Siddharth I'd now like to ask Councillor Councillor Reguat to sum up please strangely I actually agree with Councillor McGregor to a certain degree you have to do the work to justify the allowance and actually it's the public that judge that Councillor Siddharth is absolutely right and they'll judge us in 2026 so your judgment counts for very little in this chamber I will give out I will assign jobs as I see fit and they will do the jobs and report to me that is the way leadership works so there is an underlying principle here though the role of Councillor has changed the demands have changed we are increasingly all of us on 24 hours a day often my first phone call in the morning is 7 o'clock my last phone call can be 11, 12 o'clock and I'm always working in between and that's not me trying to justify my £60,000 a year salary but I'm justifying it on behalf of all of us that is the demand that people place on us and I think that should be remunerated if you're a cabinet member a committee chair or a cabinet assistant your demands are increased and that should be remunerated so I think that is an important principle that we have to acknowledge this is about pegging that to the pay award so that we are not excessive in what we are rewarding ourselves in parliament obviously there is an independent body and there is a pay increase that is going through there that is receiving lots of traction I am personally very uncomfortable about marking my own homework I would rather have an independent panel looking at our pay and through my role in London councils that is something that we are pushing for heavily and that's absolutely the right thing to do I can't resist I mean I welcome you Councillor Denison and thank you for your comments but really kids in glass houses should not throw stones when you do more than 15 pieces of case work in a four-year period come and talk to me and we'll talk about allowances again can we all try to keep personal attacks down to yeah just please please let's try not to keep it personal thank you thank you so now we can move on to the vote and there are three recommendations to approve those in favour thank you those against thank you and any abstentions thank you very much thanks everybody so we move on to agenda item eight the constitutional review this is the latest tranche of the constitutional review may I also draw members attention to the two small amendments which have been identified and can be found in the supplementary agenda I would again like to invite Councillor Rajawat to propose and introduce the report thank you thank you very much madam mayor as you said this is the latest tranche I think we are close to the end I think beyond this there will be ad hoc meetings of the members constitutional working group which is cross-party and can I thank colleagues from across the chamber who have taken part in this work I have to say mostly it's been very collegiate we've agreed on most things but we always knew there would be a point where perhaps we would disagree and tonight may well be that night so I'm going to rattle through very quickly some of the changes and hopefully I get through them in the five minutes so bear with me I'm going to be quite quick so in terms of rule eight duration of meetings so the initial time limit for meetings is extended to three hours unless extended beyond that period by resolution approved before the original three hours has elapsed the existing absolute cut-off time of 11 pm has been removed and that's now in line with budget and planning meetings sorry that is now in line with with the budget meeting and planning meetings as well any reports not disposed of by the closure time will be put formally to the vote without discussion obviously the exception here is planning and licensing committees motions already moved and secondly will be treated as having been withdrawn they can be resubmitted at future meetings if the proposed proposing member chooses rule nine question for members the ability to our senior officer questions on reports has been removed questions without notice on reports can now be asked of the relevant committee chair leader or cabinet members for questions on notice in relation to a matter that is not on the agenda these will only be accepted if they are urgent and cannot be dealt with in another way and it is in the public interest you or the mayor uh makes the decision having taken advice from the monitoring officer rule 10 motions on notice there'll be up to three notice motions per council meeting that's excluding the budget meeting and the annual general meeting uh motions that do not relate to reports on the agenda uh there'll be a maximum number of motions of 12 per year the allocation of motions between political groups will be based on proportion of the proportion of seats where groups do not get a motion at a council meeting they can choose which meeting it will be tabled at subject to giving six weeks notice the mayor can agree to take additional motions on grounds of urgency following consultation with the chief executive and the monitoring officer and the time limit of 30 minutes for for the consideration of motions has been removed in this in terms of the rules of debate that's rule 12 uh the length of speech timings has been changed so that there is five minutes for a mover movers opening speech and any amendments to it so someone moving a speech or moving an amendment will still get five minutes all other speeches are three minutes and if longer only with the consent of the chair the length of speech timings for the budget meeting have been changed so that the leader and the leader of the opposition have 10 minutes each to introduce and respond to the budget respectively if the leader of the opposition proposes an amendment to the budget then this must be dealt with within the 10 minute period noted uh just a second ago if a member of the main opposition group other than the leader proposes an amendment to an alternative budget they only have five minutes and the right for a member to request an intervention has also been removed finally rule 13 in terms of amendments so amendments which must be seconded must be submitted in writing by 4 pm two working days before the meeting uh if the monitoring officer rules it in order it will be circulated by 5 pm on the day of the meeting and then new for budget amendment new budget amendments must be submitted by 5 pm on the day which is one week after the date of the budget cabinet meeting if the monitoring officer and section 15 officer rules in order will be published as supplementary agenda as soon as reasonably practicable thereafter and members mount may now propose a maximum of one amendment to any motion there's quite a bit in there's quite a bit of detail in the report happy to take any questions and discussions thank you madam mayor thank you councillor ajumat councillor bruce um would you like to second yeah uh yes happy to second and reserve my right to speak thank you and um councillor thompson thank you madam mayor as the leader said we have cross-party worked very constructively lots of meetings we've all been earning our money haven't we in those those meetings um and we as you've said we've agreed on the vast majority of the changes but i think even at the outset we knew that this would be the one where we perhaps uh agree to disagree and in particular what i'm going to talk about is the issue of council motions um we think this change which means in reality that instead of having been able to put a motion to every borough council meeting which is only four because the the agm and the budget meeting don't really have motions attached to them so it's only four times a year that's reduced to two again we were discussing earlier about when we first came onto the council but when i first came onto the council yes i didn't even know no one even told me when i was elected there was an allowance so shows how stupid i was but we used to have about every month we'd have a borough council meeting so we had you know many opportunities to debate current up-to-date things but we can do for the moment as the opposition and when when these changes go forward based on our numbers at the moment we can only have two this reduction in opposition motions is not just a procedural tweak we think it's a serious erosion of accountability and debate and it undermines our ability as an opposition party elected by thousands of people across this borough to represent those who sent us here in westminster opposition parties have 20 days opposition days to raise motions scrutinize policy and shape the national debate that's democracy but here in hounslow we're now restricted to two motions per year doled out by a political formula let's be clear this isn't about efficiency council meetings can and should as we've had tonight accommodate debate and i'm sure that will continue in some ways but this change is really about silencing dissent and centralizing control we do believe as conservatives in limited government free speech and local accountability and this change i'm afraid takes away all three of those we have raised every meeting a motion that's being discussed some of them were so impressive that you actually amended them and agreed with them are the ones you booted out but i think actually we chose motions on issues that really matter to the residents of hounslow discussions of topics that deserved a hearing and deserved a debate so we had the motion i'm just come back to once from this year when we recognized across party the contribution of the tamil community and we all agreed to promote tamil heritage month we stood up and many people in debate across the chamber agreed with this to speak out for the 28 000 old people who lost their winter fuel allowance we called for support recently for businesses and charities who were facing increased costs from national insurance contributions and in that motion we had a range of practical things that would make a difference these motions and many others weren't just political theater we didn't just pick them to sort of you know embarrass we partly that's why we picked them but actually there were serious issues behind all of them they were topical issues they're things that people cared about and they would expect us as their counselors to be debating under these rules we just have to pick a couple and give six months notice or whatever it was six weeks notice that's not democracy it is procedural censorship colleagues we must not allow opposition voices to be reduced to tokens you know we heard earlier that half of us are going to lose our seats next time well if you want to one party state this is the first step towards it when there is no dissent like in richmond when we have imagine that hell it must be awful a chamber full of liberal democrats all agreeing with themselves is that how it's going to be you know that is that how it's going to be is that what you want maybe this is the first move towards but obviously we're not all going to lose our seats quite think about the electoral cycle quite the opposite is going to happen i just urge this council to reconsider and to think about we agree it's going to go through tonight but we would restore this and we would give the right of opposition groups to propose motions because we believe in democracy in fairness and accountability because when power silences opposition it stops serving the people and it serves only itself thank you madam mayor thank you councillor thompson councillor emersley please yes thank you very much um madam mayor council thompson is always a tough act to follow um can i start just by taking this opportunity to uh welcome councillor dennison and councillor mosley to this council i think it's safe to say none of us quite align on our politics we're all a little bit different but we are stronger as a council when we have a diversity of views and experiences and i look forward to working with them both for at least the next year and who knows maybe the public might vote us in for a few more years after that and let's just hold in our minds that importance of diversity and experiences for a bit later and as council thompson said we were members of the constitutional working group that looked at these proposals and we worked cross-party with labor counterparts and for the most part there was unanimity there was consensus because most of the changes up until this point i think were good for governance and they ultimately delivered a better council for our residents and that consensus wasn't reached though on this latest set of proposals and council thompson and i were in two very lengthy meetings about this current report and i think it's worth just putting on record here the concerns that we raised in those meetings and why we can't support them this evening fundamentally there are two big changes coming to how this council operates the first is that this will be the last set of questions on notice um councillors are currently asked able to ask any question of any cabinet member this will be replaced with the ability to ask questions about reports presented by cabinet members i agree that allows more precise questioning but it does take away that choice of a question topic but the second change which council thompson alluded to is how motions work currently the majority group uh presents two motions at a council meeting in the opposition one motion this change means that the opposition group will be limited to two motions across the entirety of the next municipal year in theory that means it's a little bit more uh um proportional and that's the argument that i know is being made by the administration in practice though those two changes taken together mean that all but two of the meetings over the next municipal year will only have on the agenda items decided by the majority group that means in those meetings there'll be no right of opposition councillors to choose the topic of their questions and no right of opposition councillors to present a motion i can't find a neighboring borough that does it that way and i suspect there is a good reason for that so coming back to the first point i made we have a wealth of experience and views in this council we have i think it's fair to say the full spectrum of labor party factions we have strong conservative voices for chiswick and for hanworth we have two independents who although our politics aren't the same you could not fault them for their dedication to brentford with these changes i'm worried that we will lose the ability for a lot of that diversity of views to really be heard during deliberation and decisions being made by this council i think that will make us a poorer local authority and that's why i cannot support this report thank you thank you thank you councillor emsley um councillor mcgregor please well fellow councillors as her majesty the her late as her late oh you want me to come round now if i said to you fred carno how many of you would actually understand that no no fred carno was a comedian before the first world war and he had what was called an army and they were all clowns so i feel like fred carno this evening thank you so much for inviting me to join you at the front coming back to the procedural rules of the council's constitution i think we need to put some perspective on what we're talking about tonight because i can understand why people are getting very head up about the limitations that this means and given the fact the number of borough council meetings is limited but then we had a moment ago the debate on pay policy and everyone was saying we have to work harder well this prevents working harder because it doesn't give you any time to prepare or do stuff you can't speak for five minutes a good five minute speech which is properly referenced will take you a couple of hours work it's worth it because we want to hear from you but this will not happen in the future we need to understand where it was in 2006 when councillor ellis was leader he was committed absolutely committed to debate and then when we became the coalition administration in 2006 we freed up because of the number of people from different parties and different groups we freed up the constitution to enable everyone to have a chance to speak and that meant we had debates now between 2004 and 2006 my presentations to the council were very often foreshortened by the labour chief whip who then would actually urge the council that i be not heard that was a guillotine which was in use the whole time that's a disgrace council ellis in fact abolished that as far as he could but he was up against some fairly tough labour characters in his own cabinet own executive the history of this is that when we heard the coalition the council became extremely liberal in its timings and we maintained the number of council meetings we had the statutory meeting and the budget meeting both which were without limit we had the regular council meetings and we had the regular forum meetings so by the time you'd finished councils were attending two meetings a month on average plus their special duties and when they got special duties they were supported by good officers that's the key thing we had good officers people with long-standing influence over the council people understood how the council worked and they were very good at commandeering policy and understanding it so when we had a new coalition administration in 2006 they had to learn again very quickly and what we then did for them was to ensure that the council procedure was then enacted properly another issue between 2006 and 2010 if you'd come to the council meeting you would have seen every director every senior budget holder and every member of the core management team attending the borough council because mark jilks who was then the chief executive was concerned about the nature of how we ran our constitution and he wanted to ensure that directors were on hand to answer questions if things became tricky for the cabinet or executive members they then were to ensure this is history but it's not dead history this is live history because there are people here in this chamber who remember that it's important that that remembrance is not lost this loses it this is a systematic approach this is almost trump in its approach it's not good it's not good watch out madam mayor point of order i think we might think about suspending standing orders given the time i'll second that we all agreed thank you um councillor stroud turp did you want to speak on this thank you i think i might i we've just heard that this move is to stifle debate and democracy i think anybody watching this what we've done today in this chamber would say that democracy is alive and well in hounslow and debate is alive and well i mean we've had some marvelous speeches from here and not so much there but we've heard some pretty good speeches and democracy is well we can debate and we can have debates um coming to questions i do seem to recall councillor thompson councillor emsley that in the working group you didn't push back against removal of questions um but we've got ample opportunity as we've seen tonight to question reports and to question um cabinet members on anything that they're bringing forward um let's just turn to motions there are 62 councillors in this council and we have an opportunity for 12 motions per year that's four councils where there are three motions that's got to be done proportionally and trust me on the arithmetic here it means every councillor gets 0.19 of a motion so if you take the current numbers in the chamber and councillor thompson said this based on our current numbers it's not great for you because i'm afraid and this is how democracy works the voters of hounslow in 2022 didn't want that many of you so you only get a smaller number of motions now just imagine if the opposition and i'm just going to hypothesize here in 2026 reduce the conservatives and i know that they've got confidence they won't but let's say it's reduced to five conservatives is it right that they still get a motion per council no of course it's not of course it's not so it's got to be done on a proportion of the councillors you have in the chamber the other thing i'd say and i don't want to disagree with councillor thompson because he did go through the list of motions that they brought to council but many of the motions that they bring do not really actually have an impact on what the council and it says this in the constitution they skirt they skirt the constitution yes they're important issues about what affect our residents but we as a council have very little control over national policy and they get round it by throwing a line in at the end that we write to a minister or we adopt a policy that hounslow opposes it this this this is nonsense it's quite opposition motions are quite often used to attack national government policy with that little caveat throat well you can laugh guys but you absolutely know it's the case um you you you use them to attack national government policy and score some cheap political points that's all you do cheap political points going if you've wrote a motion that actually improved the life of the residents of this borough i think we'd probably support it but generally you do not i can only say that this change reflects reflects the composition of this chamber as we see it today it may change in 2026 you may get more councillors you may not but in 2026 the number of motions that go to each group will change to reflect the makeup of this chamber and on that basis i would commend this report yeah thank you councillor stroud turp councillor todd please i'm genuinely shocked by what the chief whip said could anyone say to me now what benefit is there for someone who seeks the challenge to clarify and cut out ambiguity in this report there's not one word of benefit it's it's cover obfuscation can i give you some details because i'm a great great passion of scrutiny and others yeah i raised the lambton concern some months ago or even less no one phoned me i had a word with a senior officer who said he couldn't hear me in the chamber i mean i thought that was taking the liberty from me um we had a review of scrutiny by an outside organization and they said that um our financial challenge is not of the highest the audit committee which i sit on which is normally a valuable tool it's not publicized so the public can't see what we're trying to achieve or not achieve i have a real issue about children in care and i've raised it before as lilly bath would know we have children in homes who are i'm a corporate parent the law requires an independent person to go to that home once a month and to report back to the lead member and the director of what they find the director refuses to let anyone see that report or even talk of a summation i'm not happy with that i i try and represent the sharp edge of our effectiveness um treasury policy i'm not happy about but what i'm really trying to say you never know what's around the corner and i remember having a strong argument with the late steve curran about the need to call in we have we have members now who are independent if they want to call something in they've got to get four people why why does any party in power try and make the route so bloody difficult to to to establish facts um those of you who follow the dreadful cases of indecency in up north um the judge during the review highlighted how scrutiny i'm not suggesting this but scrutiny and others become too close who who are sensitive to challenge it's that it's that cutting edge stuff that we need to be a sharp on um i think with respect to john you insulted the project and i'll come back to my original point what is there in this report that benefits me in my challenge of this this administration thanks very much thank you councillor todd councillor denison please thank you madam mayor once upon a time there was a party the labour party which was a democratic party but now and this report i think very adequately uh ex shows it it is now a party which is antipathetical to democracy they have destroyed democracy within their own party they've been in special measures for 50 years completely incapable of running their own affairs in a democratic fashion they've destroyed the democracy within their own labour group they've just they've abolished the election of the the annual election of the leader they've abolished the election of cabinet members they've abolished the election of the mayor indeed as well madam bear and now through this document they're helping to destroy the rights of individual councillors to actually have a say on what is going on within their own wards this is a very undemocratic shift by a very undemocratic party and the leader you said you know i shouldn't throw stones if i can't do 15 items of case work in a four-year term i did 18 before tea time today so i'm going to claim my right to challenge you now i'm going to challenge you can you you have 50 backbenchers can you get four one-tenth of your backbenchers to speak in anything tonight because none of them have so far that's two-thirds of the entire council incapable of standing because they live in fear of what they may say wrong because they haven't got the support they haven't got the confidence of a supposed strong leader of their party this is a pathetic labour party that does not believe in democracy in this chamber in its party in its group and it doesn't respect the rights of residents to have councillors who will stand up and speak on behalf of them so you do that for me shan you get four of your back benches to stand up tonight and defend these changes thank you councillor dennison i'd now like to um go to the councillor rajwat to sum up please thank you uh i'm actually going to start councillor todd with your question what is in this report that allows you your democratic right and actually there is nothing in this report that prevents your democratic right it's your interpretation of it uh and the spin that you're placing on it that uh makes you believe that there is a prevention here actually very little is changing there there are certain underlying principles here look we are sat in borough council it is the highest decision making body of this council we are here to decide the business of our residents it is now 9 30 we have been sat here for two hours and um see you councilman um and democracy is live and well um we've sat here for two hours and we're not even on questions and motions yet so anybody that says that democracy is dead councillor dennison uh is living in a past world um scrutiny is still very much welcome the ability to question reports and the business of this council as decision making still exists the ability to debate is not going away and there is a fundamental point here when councillor strad terp talked about proportionality our opposition accept proportionality on membership of committees they don't sit there and go it's anti-democratic that because there are fewer councillors they have less seats on committees and yet when it comes to the same principles being applied on motions they are complaining um and actually i i do agree with councillor strad terp whilst absolutely i'm not going to say that you haven't bought some very good motions uh that we have agreed with them where we have we we we do uh a lot of the time they are just point scoring for the sake of point scoring for i'm afraid their spin doctor who councillor dennison wants to get rid of um but um it's also a there is a broader point here that the the opposition are willfully glossing over and that is the ability to raise issues if they are burning and it's not our decision whether they go forward it's a decision of the mayor and the monitoring officer to look at is it in the public interest is is that is it really burning and urgent that we discuss those matters that is enshrined within this constitutional review but we need to be leaner we need to get on with business and we're not going to take lectures from former socialists who have now become populists uh thank you councillor rajawat so i'd now like to move swiftly to the vote there are three recommendations including one in the supplementary paper so i'd like um to ask everyone in favor of the recommendations thank you everyone against thank you and any abstentions lovely so that has carried and um i'd like to thank everyone for their contributions we move on to agenda item nine appointment of independent members to the auditing governments committee um councillor rajawat would you like to propose like a yo-yo this evening thank you madam mayor uh this uh report uh seeks the approval of the appointment of two independent members to the audit and governance committee uh bringing the committee in line with sip for guidance uh having independent members on the committee and it kind of comes back to council todd's point around audit and governance brings richness of views and challenge and scrutiny uh to the audit committees the two members that we are seeking to uh appoint are very well qualified uh they i believe have either been chief finance officers in the private sector or in the public sector uh previously that doesn't negate the need for training and development of audit committee members uh from amongst councillors that that will still carry on but i believe that this is a very positive step despite it also being uh requirement of sip for uh guidance to bring richness to that committee and i formally move the report thank you councillor rajawat do we have a seconder uh happy to second and reserve by right to speak thank you does anyone want to comment on this we will have councillor mcgregor really thank you no not really madam mayor but uh i just wanted to give you a thrill by standing up again uh agenda item nine uh everyone attending page 189 yeah it's a very important motion this because the audit and governance committee needs high quality independent members the um mini cv we saw when we had the notification of this was very limited and i'm wondering whether or not we shouldn't have a better standard of cv represented when we make this decision i know that the people have got certain qualifications and i'm sure that they've been well chosen but i would like as always to have some further proof so i'm wondering whether we can ask mike pinder head of audit investigations to be challenged by councillor shantana rajawat to produce a better quality representation of the two individuals so we can understand more about them i have absolutely no doubt that the representation they've made and the and the decision made to appoint them is a good one but i would like to know more about them because audit governance is very close to my heart and close to the heart of all true conservatives thank you madam mayor thank you councillor mcgregor so if nobody else wants to speak if councillor rajawat would like to sum up uh no madam just to um straight to the vote uh well just say to councillor mcgregor absolutely happy to provide that afterwards yep thank you okay so then um um we move straight to the vote on one recommendation votes for please and votes against and any abstentions right thank you very much that's carried on to agenda item 10. um we now come to appointments which is a standing item on our agenda may i draw members attention to the nomination in the supplementary agenda pages okay does everyone agree agreed thank you councillor thank you madam mayor just a point of order for something earlier on apologies i was slightly late um with the declaration of interest i just want to put out there that i'm a landlord in this borough alongside a lot of my colleagues here thank you very much okay okay so um with that um agreed we move on to agenda item 11 decisions taken under urgency arrangements please note the report listed on the agenda front sheet noted thank you very much we move on to questions from members agenda item 12 this is the part of the meeting where we deal with council questions we have six this evening and a total of 45 minutes to deal with them may i ask councillor alan joseph to ask the first question please thank you madam mayor uh this is with regard to the street lights dimming the street lights can the cabinet member give an update which streets will be will see dimmer street lights sorry councillor garawal yeah thank you madam mayor and councillor joseph i have already answered this question previously in the last but i'll still make clarify things on this the london board of huntslow has to scrutinize all spend we currently in incur in order to minimize our financial expenditures this includes considering changes to the management of our street lights as part of the highway pfi all our street lights between 2013 and 2017 were converted to energy efficient led lanterns with a new central management system for all our 16 000 lighting points the council is committed to conducting detailed discussions and consultations with all emergency services and members of the huntslow community safety partnership unit throughout the evaluation process the safety of a residence and all road users in a borough continue to be our utmost priority and we will be important during this evaluation process thank you madam thank you councillor gurawal um do you have a supplementary question councillor joseph no me thank you very much in that case we move on to the next question and i would like to ask councillor emsley to ask his question yes thank you very much madame um given the recent decision to reduce road and pavement maintenance standards across the borough what assessment has been made on the impact of dimmer lights and poorer road and pavement surfaces for cyclists and pedestrians thank you madam mayor councillor ansley my answer to this question is going to be no different to what i've just said but i want to clarify that we are not reducing maintenance of our roads and payments but we are being more efficient as far as the assessment for dimming of the lights which will be done in consultation with the met police and the community safety teams and i would also like to inform you that there will be a written reply to the petitions submitted by councillor musisha thank you thank you do you have a supplementary question if you'd like to ask it thank you madam mayor i we are reducing raid maintenance it's in it's in the budget and we're reducing the standards to national levels from where they were before so i'm not entirely sure what that answer was and when i asked a similar question of councillor garrowald your um things on your mic's on well i asked a similar question of councillor garrowald on this topic in june last year and he stated that cyclists were not at risk of potholes on residential roads because and i quote there was greater visibility and therefore they could just maneuver around them so given he now intends to reduce visibility on those residential roads by dimming street lighting does he have any new advice for cyclists and pedestrians who are concerned about their safety on those roads where he's reducing the maintenance thank you madam mayor to be very honest uh consequently i stand to my previous answer which i gave you in the previous borough council that now we will maintain the potholes and we will make the quality of our roads much better and we are we listen you you don't understand my point what i'm trying to say okay that i have we i've never made up we can we keep it that we are going to reduce the quality of our roads and pavements we are we are going to be more efficient in how we maintain them yeah thank you thank you everybody the next question is councillor biddolf to ask councillor gerowell thank you and councillor gerowell i realize it was the leader who made the promise of a post-collection litter pick but it's for you as cabinet member to implement his promise thank you yes councillor biddolf as far street cleansing is concerned the council continues discussion with hunsler highways on the future model of street cleansing this is in the backdrop of saving council needs to achieve however as per cabinet budget 25 26 report paragraph 3.6 the council has committed to use chemicals to manage the ever-increasing weed growth in a borough while hunsler highways prepares the program of glycophosphate use as a general weed management for the first time since 2019 conversations continue on how an alternative street cleansing model will be sought and i will bring that to the borough when we are we have finally decided thank you councillor gerowell and do you have a supplementary question i do yes um so i think then we're still at the point of this year next year in some time but i'm not sure that we haven't actually reached never because that's not a commitment to litter picking that was a comment on weeds so i'd like to know what the council is going to do to tackle litter particularly after waste and recycling collections that not only blights our roads and parks and neighborhoods but also blocks gullies and drains causing surface flooding and ends up in rivers and canals affecting water quality and damaging wildlife as far as the later problem is concerned we are doing our best to maintain the streets uh keep them very clean and tidy and we are working on a program and we are going to be very efficient in that and the roads are kept clean well you you can say that by all means because uh we don't have that many complaints about cleansing right tell me when was the last time you send me an email regarding that give me an example i use case work i use you fix my street is where we report it safe fix my street is something you report on a letter but if you want to make a complaint you should come to the cabinet member thank you both for your contributions i would now like to ask theo denison to ask his question of councillor rajwa thank you madam mayor and thank you for that commitment uh shiv raj um yeah my question is would the leader of the council consider abolishing the post of chief whip and support a ban on the use of the whip and the threat of deselection as a means of silencing members of the council and preventing them from speaking freely on matters of concern to their constituents thank you madam mayor thank you theo for your question uh slight smoke and mirrors if you believed everything that was in theo's question you'd have a very different view of the whips i'm afraid he's not being quite up front so i just wanted to start by clarifying and being absolutely clear on the role of the whip the whip does a lot of different roles uh for us and i i won't speak for the opposition group because i don't know whether it's different or not but certainly for us the whip is in charge of training and member development um he arranges a number of away days for the labor group um and facilitates a number of discussions on key policy areas as we get to the manifesto that will also be something that um john in in this case or the chief whip will uh assist with they act as pastoral care so where there are issues where people have genuine issues and that sometimes can be personal life because we know that personal life can get in the way it is the whip that um uh assists where possible and signposts members to support that might well be needed uh coordination of the smooth running of the council and i know uh our whip talks to the opposition whip uh quite regularly uh and that helps facilitate uh meetings like this and yes there is an element of discipline but i don't make any apologies for working in a rules-based environment he used to at one point as well until he rejected that um and you know to his claim and and we have to correct the claim here uh about silencing members i say to you councillor dennison look around at these 50 councillors do that any of them look scared to you because they really don't look scared at all in fact even the opposition councillors and as much as i could say about councillor stroud terp and councillor elmsley i'm sorry i'm including you in this executioners you are not look the point here is councillor dennison wants people to believe that i am some sort of juggernaut that silences you all you should all sit quietly how dare you how dare you smile how dare you but actually we have space for discussion for debate where there are issues that exist where there are people who are unhappy with anything that i am proposing in my group they have the space here and that is why they vote the way they do because they fundamentally agree with the agenda that we are um carrying and i just want to take this opportunity to remind councillor dennison about the work that these 50 labour councillors are doing to represent the residents of this borough properly building new homes so we've got brentford waterside in his ward new low new row triangle frank towel rose gardens and burlington close thousands of new homes for residents that are in desperate need of it supporting our school system so that the gcse and a level results outperform national and london averages delivering 1.9 million pound of funding for community and voluntary groups in the borough acknowledging that we can't do all the work on our own 1.6 million pounds funding for howzo citizens advice service and investing in our community hubs these scared people have facilitated 4 635 local residents receiving support in our community hubs and 3 900 in our family hubs does that look like we're not representing local residents councillor dennison you can at least have the decency to look up and look at them thank you councillor raduat um councillor dennison do you have a supplementary question uh yes thank you madam mayor um to answer your description uh leader uh of very much party roles rather than functions that serve the interests of of of either taxpayers or the council um and actually you know i'd hate to suggest that any of the labor members didn't have a work ethic any of you had seen how much work they put into trying to keep me off the council over the last few months will absolutely know that on one thing they are united and hard working which is how to get themselves into power and that's the only thing they work really question yeah my question really is um would the leader support any measures to encourage these fine members of the labor party to speak freely and publicly on behalf of residents and if so what councillor dennison you really ought to listen to the answer there is no stop they can speak freely now there really isn't a a barrier and and quite frankly to go after the whip uh is quite shameful once upon a time you were a labor councillor you held the portfolio that i held alongside the the leadership which included governance and during that time because it suited your purposes you chose not to get rid of the whip so it's really rich of you now to come back and try and attack us just because the whip that exists to promote discipline was coming after you thank you thank you for your contributions i'd like to move on to the next question um asha tarik has a question which was for samir chowdhury i understand councillor rajwa will be answering thank you madam mayor could the cabinet member please provide an update on the outcome of school admission in the borough and how many hounslow students receive and offer one of their preferred secondary school thank you thank you councillor tarik for your uh question i hope you weren't scared to ask it um so in hounslow of course we're naturally really proud that all of our secondary schools are recognized by hosted as either outstanding or good so i'm absolutely thrilled that families and students who have secured placements in their preferred school this september so figures released by the pan london admission board responsible for the coordination of school admissions across local authorities in london have again proved positive for parents pupils and educational professionals in hounslow whilst the figures uh break down into numbers and i'm happy to provide that to council later on if i can give broad percentages at this point uh 96.01 received one of their top six preferences and that breaks down to 91.04 uh receiving one of their top three preferences uh and for context that is up two percent on 2024 and 71.29 received their first preference um so their very first preference and that's a rise of four percent on 2024 for uh of course i think across the chamber we would say our schools continue to be something that we are proud of providing a solid and sought-after experience for children across the borough thank you madame thank you councillor rajwat do you have a supplementary question no madame thank you thank you very much so thank you both for your contribution and the next question is councillor girmalal for councillor shaheen thanks madam mayor libraries are a huge asset to our borough and serve as an important community hub for our residents across hounslow what improvements is the cabinet member making to the library service to ensure better access to all our residents thank you councillor shaheen thank you very much councillor lal for your your question i'm very proud of our library services here in hounslow and that's a credit to my predecessors in this role it's a credit to the officers that have steered a very tight ship with our library service over over over the many years i'm particularly proud that while many councils around the country have had to cut their library services and and close libraries during austerity we have not only kept all ours open but we're but we're enhancing our library service as well we've already a national report show we've already got some of the best library access in this country but we're going further than that as well we're giving our libraries a digital upgrade members can now access 1.2 million ebooks and audio books for free plus thousands of digital newspapers and magazines and we're also transforming our libraries into community hubs where people can come and and get the support they need as well as borrow the books they need this has started with meadowbank and cranford but that is just the start it's a program we're going to be rolling out throughout the course of this year and there's plenty more to come on that and i look forward to giving you updates in due course thank you councillor shaheen councillor lal do you have a supplementary question no madam mayor thank you very much thank you both so we now move on to um motions agenda item 18 um there are three motions listed on the agenda for consideration this evening and only 30 minutes in which to discuss them so may i ask members to bear this in mind while when making their contributions however as members will see in the supplementary agenda an amendment has been provided in relation to the first motion and consequently the third motion on the agenda as agenda item 20 has been withdrawn i'm grateful the two main political so the two main political groups for working together to find a sensible way forward tonight and to allow the council to have a single constructive debate on an important issue we therefore move on to the first motion which can be found at agenda item 18 and i invite councillor shantanu rajawat to propose thank you very much madam and thank you to the opposition uh for working with us uh on actually what is a very similar motion so i will be very brief to set just a little bit of context to uh the motion as will soon be amended i'm sure um around what is quite topical at the moment and a very important topic right on our doorstep as well as we know uh rachel reeves and and the government of the day are very very focused uh on growth and national infrastructure um is a big part of that and the the chancellor has made announcements signaling support uh for expansion at heathrow um as a council we have long held a view we take a view based around uh two perhaps competing juxtapositions the environmental impact um around heathrow which i know colleagues will speak about that is is very very important to us and some of that discussion was born out earlier in the transport strategy um debate but also the economic benefit 13 000 people directly employed by heathrow and we saw during the pandemic when heathrow does closes down the impact it has on local uh communities and the local economy uh as well and so we have historically taken the view that we want a better not bigger hounslow how uh how so heathrow sorry it's been a long evening i've spoken a lot uh bigger not better no better not bigger heathrow i keep getting that wrong i apologize um that what does work for our communities works for our environment uh and there is a lot of work that is happening in there and i'm sure this will be borne out in the debate um i regularly meet with the chief executive of uh heathrow and our conversations aren't just about the economy they are about uh heathrow's environmental footprint uh and the work that they are doing to try and decarbonize and play their part um in terms of the environment but also what they are doing in terms of economic activity and providing not just jobs for our local residents but careers uh as well there is a whilst the initial announcements have been made um there is a lot of uh lot still to come out and there's a lot of detail that we need to pour over and understand over the next few months but i think it is really important as a council we reaffirm our historic view on what we want from heathrow uh and that's a heathrow that works for the best interests of hounslow in its totality uh so with that i move the motion thank you councillor rajwat councillor dumb would you like to second thank you madam mayor yes i'll second this motion um and echo many of the things that councillor rajwat has already said um as has been noted hounslow's position on heathrow has long been better not bigger and this position remains the right one whilst we welcome and embrace the positive aspects of heathrow we know it impacts negatively on our residents too noise air pollution and increased traffic to name a few more recently we have come to understand the climate impacts of airport expansion while we welcome new developments in sustainable aviation fuel and one day perhaps electric planes it will be a long time before these are commonplace meaning that airports and flight emissions will have to be offset for decades to come embracing expansion at multiple uk airports therefore is not in line with uk climate objectives i know that other colleagues are going to speak about other issues and i don't wish to prolong this debate unnecessarily especially where we are for once in agreement um i will just note that i regularly attend the heathrow strategic planning group meetings and also the council for the independent scrutiny of heathrow airport and i'll continue to work constructively with those groups to ensure that we get the best outcome for residents and in that vein i very much um welcome the uh amendment um from the the conservatives to work cross-party with councillors mps mayor of london and and and so on and i know you're going to speak about it uh but just to say that i i welcome that and and and would very much uh want to take that forward as well thank you thank you thank you councillor dunn so we'll move straight to the proposed amendment and i invite councillor thompson to introduce it uh thank you thank you madam mayor and thank you for the proposal and the second thing uh in moving this amendment um it's good actually to be speaking in defense i suppose of hounslow's wonderful legacy and history and traditions on this topic i'm also speaking i suppose i'm trying to wrap all the speech together so i'm covering the amendment and the main one as it goes forward yeah um also we're talking tonight aren't we about our member uh residents well being and we are talking as councillor dunn said about environmental responsibility and it's good i think to make the case again as this motion does why the policy going forward has to be and i also got this wrong when we submitted the motion it has to be better and not bigger yeah i don't know what is wrong with that one just doesn't work does it yeah so we are here again in january uh 2025 when the current labor government confirmed its support and this follows of decades of shifting views on ethereal expansion gordon brown um said it was going to happen back in 2009 and then in 2018 theresa may's government had a vote and that went forward and now it's back with rachel reeve so it's ebbed and flowed i should mention i suppose that coalition government did say it's not happening no ifs no buts so the views have changed nationally but throughout that hounslow's position has always been very clear and consistent and principled i can remember in 2006 we sort of co-launched a group called the 2m group that was a snappy title along with hillingdon richmond and wandsworth which was a coalition of cross-party councils who actually grew to end up representing 26 i think councils and the 2m was over 2 million people we represented to campaign against expansion and the third runway that took us to 2010 when this council agreed to join in the legal fight and we went to the high court to challenge the decision of borden brown's government not out of ideology but out of necessity and it was council reed who we appointed alderman last year who led that particular campaign again cross-party and we did with other councils green groups local residents we we stood firm and our views made a difference so again we've got the same arguments the same debates as we've had throughout those 25 years and i'm sure beyond of more planes more noise more pollution and yet more pressures on our community but we know as the leader said hounslow is important sorry he throw is important to hounslow it does bring real benefits it's that major employer it drives local business it does support tourism into the country skills community projects and we acknowledge that the the slogan has always been better and not bigger and never shrink hounslow or shift hounslow and float it in the sea as someone once mentioned i think once upon a time i can't remember who that was um but a third runway expansion would come as a route with a real cost okay so it's also good tonight just to again be a bit cross-party to remember two people who between 2006 and 10 when i was leader of the council and then after that when labor took control again and also before 2006 who did so much so counselor barbara reed of former count elder woman what is that we call them older woman uh reed um what elder well she won't mind me saying that i hope you're not watching barbara yeah she's she's elder and older but uh we all are right um she was a major force uh in leading that campaign i can remember pushing prams with small my small children when they were very small when we all you know tens of thousands of us walked around the perimeter of heathrow when we stood in a field somewhere in hillingdon uh making out the word no that was taken from sort of wasn't drone in those days i think it was a big crane one minute and also planting a planting an orchard which i think still exists in the poor village that will disappear and then councillor cadbury obviously also now a mp for a big chunk of this borough who has always been consistent always been hard working on this topic so this is just this motion as hopefully it's accepted and amended is a green as councillor um done reminded us it's agreeing to work cross party it's agreeing to work with our mps mayor of london assembly member as i said it's not anti-growth we do support investment we want this part of london where we live to be more prosperous we want houndslow to be a leading borough in london london but we need a balance uh we need to continue with our long-seated position backed by science backed by justice and backed by the people we serve so he threw again third time lucky he threw again should be better and not bigger we should fight excess noise increase we should campaign for cleaner air and green aviation thank you madam thank you that was a real mess anyway i'd now like to ask councillor giles to second the amendment uh thank you madam mayor and um if you don't mind i'll i'll speak um beware the hides of march uh is something that's come to mind as of this meeting and while there may not have been an assassination tonight well potentially not physically it certainly feels that there's been a bit of a character assassination as being mislabeled as climate deniers and not complaining about proportionality and committee even if it is a legal obligation but it is easy to throw out accusations when the people you're accusing don't have the right of reply due to the format of debate in this place so i'm hoping you'll forgive my little digression and i won't belabor this too much so i thank you for your indulgence um i love a good musical reference and in reading the original motion i've had lynn manuel's miranda's lynn manuel miranda's voice as alexander hamilton in my head specifically that's that line what that he says to the man who assassinated him aaron burr if you stand for nothing then what will you fall for and obviously we're so into political point scoring tonight that we as opposing parties have brought forward two motions that are remarkably similar in intent but i'd argue that one is a little bit more robust in drawing the line in the sand than the other but you know however i'm here to second a proposed amendment which should revisit and renew the historic alignment on this topic as we've already heard from councillor thompson we've had a really strong track record of working collaboratively on this issue and i'm also keen to look into how we work collaboratively with residents the last full consultation on heathrow airport was done in 2019 and as we know travel behavior and patterns have changed and while we are keen to revisit the discussion around the airport i would like to recommend that we hold a new consultation in hounslow on heathrow which can help to shape our policy and our approach in researching past consultations on this topic i was unfortunately unable to find hounslow's response to the consultation so i won't bore you about my woes with the weaknesses of the search function on the on the website so i've already spoken to thomas ribitz about it today um but i'd like to highlight some of the proposed changes from 2019 that do leave me with pause for concern such as plans to lower the m25 especially i should say pause for concern especially from an environmental perspective so these include plans to lower the m25 for the third runway to cross plans to reroute rivers and water bodies and as we know i'm a great advocate for those plans to thanks john plans to remove the swathes of green belt land for airport buildings plans for a new supersized car park to provide even more on airport car park car parking than today a proposal to introduce a ultra low emission zone and proposals to introduce a 6.5 hour ban on scheduled night flights proposals to seek the removal of current planning caps or the then current planning apps of 480 000 annual aircraft transportation minute movements at heathrow which was actually part of the the planning permission for the fifth terminal in 2001 and concurrently permission requests from heathrow airport limited to expand the two runway airport in advance of opening the proposed third one way by an extra 25 000 flights each year there were also proposals for environmentally managed growth environmental impacts for the expansion proposals proposals for mitigation and compensation noise both noise and property and the prepared presentation of a new prepared airport master planned so there's a lot of stuff in there that i don't feel like we've yet come to grips with one the airport's trying to do and how that will actually impact our residents so with that in mind um and knowing that we don't have those detailed plans i really encourage the opportunity to have these further discussions so much so that i believe it merits us spending the time money and effort to understand what our residents want across the whole borough um and what we want from our aviation neighbors by launching a standalone consultation that can help us inform any further ideas and i'm sure we'll all have a lot of ideas to suggest in figuring out how we can get a better not bigger heathrow that helps to create a sustainable relationship across our borough thank you very much thank you councillor giles councillor radu do you agree with the proposal to amend the motion yes madam mayor i do thank you so i now invite members to debate this motion um okay okay um amy croft please thank you very much madam mayor um just a very quick one from me so i firstly wanted to say i'm not afraid to speak either here in this chamber or perhaps at the chiswick area forum where i was forbidden to speak as as in my role as cabinet assistant to introduce the health discussion nor am i afraid to speak to my colleagues on the opposition if they want to ask me about my role as a cabinet assistant always welcome to have that conversation anyway um so the government have highlighted absolutely the need for increased capacity to boost economic growth um and why do they need to do that they need to do that because of the last 14 years of the tory government and the economic state of the country so in an ideal world we wouldn't need to do it but we're mindful of the impact that this may have on the lives of our residents and on the environment and so we still stand for a better not bigger and we'll continue to work with stakeholders government heathrow to make sure we mitigate any effects on our residents thank you sorry about that um thank you councillor croft um councillor machiso please thank you madam mayor um right um i'm delighted with this motion that uh we've all agreed on um but before i go in further i want to pay tribute and i'm sure the whole of the chamber would like to join me to the firefighters uh who recently uh helped to um stop the the blaze around the electrical substation in haze so i really want to put that on record um paying homage to those firefighters thank you um yes bit better heathrow is what we we all want and i'm glad we're all in agreement here but better i can also mean quite a lot of things for this administration i was indeed there in 2006 with uh councillor thompson uh councillor uh reed um baroness kramer uh and others who were there at uh the old hanslow house uh we used to what i forgot the name of it now but uh civic center is it that's it such a long time ago 2006 and we remember i remember holding a placard that said no third one way no mixed mode and i nothing has changed my mind then i'm open to my mind being changed but nothing suggests otherwise why because i think a better heathrow will mean more jobs a better heathrow will will mean reducing noise pollution a better heathrow will mean reducing air pollution and a better heathrow would mean actually integrating a traffic and transport strategy that works not only for hanslow but works for the whole area around heathrow and i think that's what we're missing earlier with the transport strategy where it came a bit short but however we know that technology is something that is with us and is changing the way we work the way we operate so i expect that a better heathrow will also mean that we use some of the technologies that are available to us so that we can provide more jobs for our local area and make heathrow airport the envy of the world as a port for people coming and going to europe and so on now because we're for pro-growth and pro-jobs and pro-business i am delighted that my colleagues on the labor benches agree with us that we should never be anti-growth thank you madam mayor uh madam point of order if i might um given we've been going just over 20 minutes now may i move suspension of standing orders for the motions otherwise we will stifle debate which we clearly do not want to do in this chamber seconded and agreed lovely thank you um thank you very much and thank you councillor mishisa um councillor sharma please thank you madam may i'll be very quick um because everyone has basically said you know what we what we what we've all said um so as as as a councillor that living near close to heathrow um you know we need to focus on the growth you know every one of us has has used heathrow every one of us has someone within the family that maybe have worked for heathrow or works for heathrow or ourselves you know i can remember as as a young lady i i worked for a company that provided food to heathrow that was one of my starting jobs so but what we need to do is to ensure that they they're not just jobs that they are careers that i know councillor bruce earlier on was talking about the children of the future um we need jobs and careers for for the children of our future we we need apprenticeships we need um you know more community engagement and so so with that you know i'm you know bigger better not bigger but it's been so long i've been at work all day so better not bigger thank you councillor charmer councillor mcgregor please um i have a very great concern about uh the issue of uh better not bigger uh mainly because we have residents in the southern part of my ward which is chiswick home fields that includes stavely gardens state that includes stavely gardens um and this is a very large residential uh mixed uh series of blocks some council blocks but a lot in private hands and built in private hands and they are subject to the most horrendous noises because when an aircraft comes into land on the southern runway that's the runway next to terminal four the direct line into terminal four's runway which the southern runway of heath row flies of course over that part of chiswick and the point there is very simple that's the point at which the pilots drop the undercart and pull out the ailerons to actually increase the wingspan so that the plane stays manageable it's a very very important part of the safety procedures in landing but the problem with that is that the engines then wind down very quickly that whine you sometimes hear is the whining of the engine coming down because the fuel's been limited and the plane is now stopping in the air as it were because the undercart's down what then happens is the pilot resumes control by increasing the engine revs in order to maintain progress that's typical landing the only difficulty with that is that sometimes the engines spill out kerosene jet fuel and it lands in very small tiny droplets and kerosene jet fuel is carcinogenic the other issue of course is the noise the noise pattern so mixed mode and then the agreements that were had in the past seem to have disappeared so people are now getting woken up at half past five in the morning or earlier by planes coming in i know that it was a blessed relief when heathrow closed because people got their first good night's sleep for years now this is the issue that we need to face there are lots of issues that we face in chiswick now those of you who are committed to heathrow absolutely fine but i also bring to your attention the fact that our neighboring borough hillingdon will bear the brunt of the construction of terminal x to go with one way three and this will be disruption going on for many years now given how long it took to build hs2 which has not yet been completed i have severe doubts about the capacity of any government to actually institute the appropriate processes to make sure we get a speedy response for one way three and the other issue of course is but by the stage we get to runway three as councillor done quite rightly pointed out there is a chance that we might have battery driven aircraft we might end up with no pollution and of course we might also take account of the fact that we're now opening up the euro tunnel to competition and the number of trains going to foreign capitals in europe will double and that is a mode of transport which is highly valuable because of course as we all know the majority of these international trains end up in town centres where the amount of traffic and travel you have to do to get to your destination within a city is quite limited it's a boon so we need to consider all sorts of issues in the strategy some of which we should have put into our transport strategy for hounslow but the important thing about it is that we've got to take our responsibilities as a council very carefully we have got to weigh up all these issues i hope that i can convince all of you that weighing it up doesn't mean taking sides at this stage bigger better better bigger well perhaps a deal of thought and consideration might be better than shouting slogans thank you madam mayor thank you councillor mcgregor um councillor joseph next please and then after that i'm going to go to councillor rajawat to sum up thank you thank you madam mayor uh i was not intent to speak today however as a resident and a councillor of the constituency feltam and estern i know how important itro is to our community it's not just an airport it's a major source of jobs for our people that's why it's crucial that we get the balance right between supporting its growth and protecting our residents from its environmental impacts both our motions reflect the delegate balance we must strike between maximizing the benefits of ethos operation and mitigating the potential negative effects such as environmental impact noise and air pollution as much as we acknowledge the airport's contribution to economic growth we must remain committed to ensuring that the voices of our residents are heard and that their concerns are addressed it is about working together our amendments call for a cross-party effort and i am glad this is accepted involving local MPs the mayor and the community groups to ensure ethro works in the best interest of our residents we want to see hunslo benefit from the economic opportunities ethro provides without sacrificing the quality of life of our residents we must focus on job creation efficiency and sustainability so that we can continue to grow while also protecting our environment and reducing noise and pollution we should be committed to working with all stakeholders to make sure the right investments are made and that any changes are in the best interest of the people of this borough it's not about opposing progress it's about making sure that progress works for everyone thank you thank you thank you councillor joseph councillor rajwat please i think cancer joseph actually uh summed out quite well actually uh it's that fine balance and i think um to councillor giles your point i don't disagree with anything you said but i think uh there is plenty more that's going to be coming out i think what we're basing our assumptions on is some of what was said at the last time this was on the table i think the world is in a very different place he throw are in a very different place um uh as well and and so by agreeing this motion not only are we stating our intent but we're also uh being very clear with our residents that this is something that we want to be very very closely uh and these conversations will continue so i want to thank all colleagues from across the chamber for their contributions i think it has been a good uh rounded debate um and of course we will come back in due course once we know more thank you thank you councillor rajwat um so if we could now move to the vote um everyone in favor of the recommendations that's wonderful everyone against any abstentions okay then that motion is carried thank you very much and we move on to the second motion and um yeah just so you know we have just over half an hour before we have to finish the meeting um so madam on a point of order i refer to 12.2 the right to require the motion in writing and i point out the third paragraph of this motion being presented which says the everyone has the right to a safe and secure home which is the basis for them proposer and enjoy their lives free from harassment and fear there's a printing error or a passing error or someone didn't do the spell checker correctly i presume that's the one that's been presented tonight this council believes it's the third paragraph two lines and it appears to be mistyped so i want this in writing what is it what are we meant to be voting for i'm madam i'm happy to clarify in my opening thank you um so yeah if councillor bruce if you could propose and clarify thank you i certainly shall i certainly shall um we've had uh quite a lot of history this evening um i hope people indulge me a personal story um personal historical story from me uh when i was about 15 i was uh after school and i was hanging out with a few friends and slowly but surely a few people drifted off uh it was left with me and someone else so i knew kind of from school it's not one of those people i i knew very well but i can remember we were talking about something and he said oh why don't you come back to my house we'll play computer games or something so off we go i'd never been to his house before go in loads of boxes around um stuff in boxes stuff all up uh the stairs sort of and i started playing you've got the computer and i sort of flippantly said something about oh you're moving soon or you just arrived or something like that and he sort of looked to me and said well actually a bit of both uh we've just arrived but i'm not really sure we're not really sure whether we're gonna have to move again and i sort of stunned by this didn't really know what to say and he said and i don't know i don't think he was being cruel but it was very poignant you don't know what it's like to worry about your home do you and you know what he was absolutely right i didn't absolutely not and that was 25 years ago and that conversation and that moment has never left me and it's one of the things that absolutely drives me as a counselor and it's why this motion really matters to me at its heart this motion is about place and belonging and about safety and security growing up growing up in heston i had a very real sense of place a real sense of belonging i felt secure and safe and that conversation maybe really for the first time made me realize not everyone felt or feels that way what we know in this borough that has thousands of good quality homes it has many landlords who are responsible and work to deliver safe and secure housing for people but what we also know is there are far too many homes that are extremely poor standard and that far too many landlords fail to meet their obligations saying we believe everyone has the right to a safe and secure home is more than simply warm words our actions previously in this motion and in the future will demonstrate that we mean it what it says here and should say actually is everyone has the right to a safe and secure home which is the basis for them to prosper and enjoy their lives free from harassment and fear so our actions what have we done what will we do well last week hopefully people saw that we published a fine that was issued to a rogue landlord and this was repeated a few times by a few journalists and appeared in my london earlier this week we've introduced an article 4 direction on hmos across the borough there have been many previous fines issued through planning enforcement and issued to rogue landlords our aims here what we're talking about now aim to continue and enhance the additional hmo licensing scheme it helps us better manage and take action on hmos in our borough and we're also working with the government on providing more money towards affordable homes something which i hope comes forward very very soon as i said near the beginning the heart of this motion is about place belonging safety and security and for many of us including me including that 15 year old self this is something that we take for granted but while a minority there are far too many who cannot and this is why this motion matters and i urge members to support it i move the report thank you councillor bruce um councillor samson would you like to second the report yes madame i'd like to second the report and i'd just like to say a few words um i fully support and second this motion for the people to be part of a community they need to have a place in the community and the most important part of that is having a safe and secure place to call home this motion reaffirms this council's commitment that no tenant living across the borough should live in a substandard or unsafe accommodation or face harassment by their landlords i host a cabinet surgery housing surgery weekly here at hounslow house and i speak to many residents who have concerns about their accommodation and rogue landlords is a very much a hot topic i will repeat everyone has the right to a safe and secure home which is the basis for them to prosper and enjoy their lives free from harassment and fear and i will ensure the council keeps up its fantastic work to protect our residents from those who wish to benefit from their suffering thank you madam mayor thank you i'd now like to move to the debate um and i'd like to ask councillor mosley if you'd like to speak thank you madam mayor i'm delighted to make my first contribution today and to do so while speaking in favor of a motion on such an important topic before i do so may i quickly thank the people of brentford east for their support by electing me as their councillor to serve alongside councillor sharma and also for their continued support for this labour council may also thank the warm wishes from members across the aisle in welcoming to this place today i had the opportunity to not only speak in favor of this motion on behalf of the people of brentford east but also as one of the youngest councillors here i hope i can also speak on behalf of generation rent who are sadly all too familiar with the concept of rogue landlords sadly as we've heard today everybody has some interaction with a rogue landlord either directly or through someone that they know throughout the past few weeks talking to thousands of residents i heard how impactful housing issues can be on someone's life from withheld deposits to neglected maintenance issues big and small can become a dominant issue that can place a cloud over people's lives living through a housing crisis is hard enough on people's standard of living but having people in the system seeking to profit from others hardship makes the situation worse and it is immoral therefore i was delighted to see our council take a proactive approach with the recent enforcement against a rogue landlord i suspect people in the borough who are sadly dealing with their own problematic landlord will be reassured to see this issue taken so seriously by their council i encourage us to keep going to support our affected residents to send a message that the london borough of hounslow is not a place for rogue landlords i look forward to supporting this council in any way in tackling this issue and i welcome this motion thank you councillor moseley uh councillor thompson please thank you madam mayor let's be very clear this this motion which we totally support it's a matter isn't it law and safety and human decency there are landlords as we all acknowledge and have said in this borough a minority yes but there are landlords in this in this borough who are stuffing vulnerable tenants into dangerous overcrowded properties ignoring fire safety ignoring regulation and ignoring as i said common sense and decency it's not just bad business it's immoral it's immoral as councillor moseley said it's criminal and it has to stop and that's why we're fully behind councillor bruce and the work of the council you know again as a conservative things like personal responsibility rule of law trying to protect our communities and the fabric of our society really matter to me as they do to all people in this chamber tonight and road landlords i think as councillor samson said they tear apart our community they exploit the vulnerable they drag down neighborhoods and make them unpleasant for everybody with that anti-social behavior and the unsafe housing and again it's very clear this motion is not attacking the good landlords i did quite smile this at the beginning of the meeting when we had to declare interests and on road landlords and all these hands went up and i was thinking that's a lot of rogue landlords we've got in houndslow but obviously it took me a moment to work it's been a long day at school to me a moment to work it out but anyway uh but i did initially appreciate your honesty for being road landlord but you're not anyway i'm waffling it's late um but we must yeah we must support the decent ones which is obviously all you like put your hands up earlier tonight uh but we have to be unapologetically tough as i think councillor bruce you were with the dodgy ones zero tolerance no loopholes no turning a blind eye because well for whatever reasons we might be tempted to do that so again this motion is standing up for tenants for families and for all those things that really matter to most people in this country the good people in this country which is safety fairness and accountability and doing the right sort of thing and hopefully i know not a lot of folks watch this on the webcast and all the rest of it but hopefully the message is beginning to get out to the dodgy bad rogue landlords and they hear this loud and clear from this local authority that their time is up thank you madam thank you councillor thompson councillor cameron please thank you madam mayor i stand today in full support of this vital motion motion addressing rogue landlords and protecting tenors right the private rented sector plays a crucial role in our borrow providing homes for a significant portion of our residents the majority of landlords act responsibly adhering to their legal obligations and working together with the council however it is the minority of rogue landlords who tarnish the sector reputation and explore vulnerable tenors by offering substandard unsafe and often hazard accommodation this is simply unacceptable the council commitment to taking a zero tolerance approach to these practices is commendable by utilizing the full range of enforcement power including formal warning civil penalties and legal action we can hold unethical landlords accountable the figure speaks for of themselves 937 warnings five six hundred fifty two safety notices and 51 civil plenty fines demonstrates the council firm resolve this sends a clear message that wrong landlords will not be tolerated furthermore the proposed expense of h smo licensing is a necessary and welcome step step, including smaller HMOs and large purpose built flats in the scheme will help close loopholes, ensuring that more properties met proper safety and quality standards. This not only protects standards, but also promotes fairness and accountability across the rental sector. In conclusion, everyone has the right to a safe and secure home, free from harassment and fear. By supporting this motion, we affirm our commitment to defending tenants' rights, promoting responsible property management, and creating a fairer, safer rental market for all. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Kamran. Councillor Bidolph, please. Thank you, Madam Mayor. There are very serious points to this motion, of course. One outcome is that it should put effort into promoting a consultation. Promoting consultation should be fundamental and core actions. Even though, as has so often been the case, residents know their views will be ignored. In this case, I hope it includes writing to all tenants, letters through doors will have to be delivered or posted, of HMOs on the register to ask them for their views. We shouldn't just get the views of neighbours and other people who are concerned, like we all are, about what might be going on behind closed doors. And we should also be asking people to put forward any suggestions of addresses where there might be HMOs but they're not on the register, because those are people who are even more seriously at risk. I had already promoted the HMO consultation to residents of Chiswick-Gunsbury Ward who have complained about badly managed HMOs, their complaints resulting in raising standards or fines. I've also already responded, based on the experience of residents in Chiswick-Gunsbury Ward, of which I'm one. I feel strongly that the proposals as published do not go far enough. When the proposal was made to require HMO landlords to apply for planning permission to change their properties into HMOs, I expressed doubts that it would make any difference. And it hasn't, certainly not in Chiswick-Gunsbury Ward. Inevitably, freeholders have seen how to work their way around the new rules, applying for small changes incrementally until they get to the point where they've developed a house into an HMO that it is then very difficult to turn down. Residents know how the houses they live in can be adapted to HMOs and can spot what's going on. They alert planning to this after approving seemingly individual changes. Residents believe that an application from the HMO will follow with no reason for planning to say no. No one is against the principle of HMOs. As I've said before, all the flats I shared when I first moved to London would be classified now as HMOs. The two biggest concerns of residents of Chiswick-Gunsbury Ward are, as is the case for all of us, badly managed HMOs, and in this case, extremely significantly, the number of HMOs in one small section of the ward, the Gunsbury Park Garden Estate. I live there, so of course I have a personal interest, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't listen to and act on my residents' concerns. My first-hand experiences back up and echo theirs. There are 52 registered HMOs in the Gunsbury Park Garden Estate. That is well over 10% of the total number of houses there. This has significantly affected its sense of community. Others have spoken about community, but there is damage that's done to community from HMOs when residents aren't integrated for various reasons, and because too many HMO landlords seem not to care about the character of an area. It has shifted aspects of the area that residents value. It was designed as a garden suburb for families 100 years ago this year and is now a conservation area, yet many HMO landlords pave over front and back gardens, turning them into concrete wastelands. It risks becoming a no-garden suburb. Residents there have had a tumultuous time with badly-run HMOs, one of which, after many years of campaigning, locals struggling to be heard resulted in the landlord being fined £130,000 for many infringements, and that's the backdrop of where I live and my neighbours live. The numbers point came to a head in 2021 when I was asked by residents to ask that no more HMOs be approved there. At that point there were 32, all but two of them in five of its seven roads. Now, as I've said, there are 52, still all but two in those same five short roads. It is far too many. Additionally, turning these modest but well laid out family homes with good-sized rooms into HMOs is reducing the number of family homes in the borough. Family homes that we, as councillors know, are badly needed. You can move out of a flat into a house. It's very difficult to move out of a house and downsize for families into flats, so we need more family homes to get that movement going. Chiswick Gunnersbury Ward has been flooded with applications for two blocks of flats. Thank you. At the local consultation session for Chiswick Tower late last year, the developer told me that the point of it being a block for co-living, that's code for flat sharing or HMO, was to relieve pressure on houses being turned into HMOs. Not true. HMO landlords can spot the opportunity of huge rental incomes, far from affordable, from separate rooms in houses compared with co-living HMOs. Our family homes will still be at risk. The only way to relieve pressure on family homes being turned into HMOs is to stop new applications being approved. Stop. Full stop. The effect of the proposed extension, which I support, will be to bring even more shared flats into HMO status. The balance is already wrong. Please say no now to more houses being turned into HMOs because they simply aren't creating affordable rooms. £1,000 a month for a room is not affordable. Thank you, Councillor Bidoff. Thank you. So we only have 15 minutes left, so we may not be able to hear from everyone unless you can keep it brief. Councillor Mishiso, thank you. I'll be very brief, Madam Mayor. Thank you so much for asking me to speak. Now we have, as Councillor Bidoff has said, a number of HMOs in our ward in Chiswick Gunnersbury, and we are trying to address those issues at the moment. So I welcome the consultation that's going to take place at the moment, which has involved an officer coming to the Chiswick Area Forum to speak with residents directly about that. So I welcome the council for their work on that consultation. I'll also like to echo the comments of Councillor Bruce, and I would ask him that at the end of this, if this motion is passed, which I believe it will be, if he can set aside perhaps ways in which we'll be inspecting these rogue landlords. For example, can we set up a platform where we report these rogue landlords confidentially, so that we are aware of who they are, and they get fined accordingly. In regards to, thank you. Sure. Two ways. You can email me directly, and I'll pass it on, and there's an email address, planningenforcement at hounso.gov.uk, I think it's called, but there are ways, and we'll publicise that. I'll take that away as well, as separately to this, but I will publicise that as well and make sure that's well known. Feel free, any journalists listening, to publicise that and make sure that's known. I want to hear from you, residents. Absolutely. Thank you, Councillor Mishisho. I accept your intention. Thank you very much. And yes, and just, but obviously, there is actually platforms already on the London Mayor's Office, where there is a way of reporting these matters on there, and also the House of Lords, or the House of Commons has just recently introduced a charitable My Housing Issue platform, which we could perhaps look into as well, but I welcome your contribution there. I believe that we can help vulnerable residents, as Councillor Thompson has already said, by actually working a lot smarter as a council. For example, we should be sharp, really sharp on any empty properties that are in our possession, and we should not let them be empty for too long, because that could save that family, that could save that individual from being exposed to a rogue landlord. Now, I speak as someone who has worked in housing in my previous roles, and it's something that I see all the time. Whenever there is private landlords, there are bound to be one or two people who are rogue. So, as a matter of relief for those who are on a waiting list for housing in Hounslow, I think that we need to address the idea of having empty homes being empty for too long, because the safety of our residents is at stake. Thank you. Madam Mayor, point of order, please. Fascinating as though this debate isn't, it's a massively important subject, but mindful of the time. Can I move the question now before Councillor Bruce has the opportunity to sum up? Do we have a second? Okay. So, everyone who agrees? Any against? Sorry, John. Any abstinences? No. So, the vote can now be put. Do you want to sum up, Councillor Bruce? Yeah, absolutely. Just, I think, four quick things. Thank you to those who have spoken in support of the motion this evening. As we've heard from everyone, it's an incredibly important issue, very wide-ranging and difficult, but something we take very, very seriously. I want to thank the officers for their work in cracking down on rogue landlords. And just to highlight a couple of numbers I was sent today by the officers, we have issued, in planning enforcement terms since 2020, £4 million worth of fines, over £4 million worth of fines across planning enforcement. And specifically to private landlords, we've issued over £1 million worth of fines. And some might say that's not enough and more needs to be done, but I would say that's a really good start. I want to thank comms team and journalists out there who have highlighted particularly the recent case last week and hopefully will continue to do that and anything that we put out about this, making sure that this issue gets out there. What it has meant is that residents have begun writing in their, I say droves, I mean I've had a few now, whereas I didn't really have any before, highlighting these issues and making sure planning enforcement are aware of this and we can start taking even more action than we have been before. And lastly, I think it's been said by a few people, I would encourage all those with interest in this, whether you're a tenant, whether you're a landlord, whether you're neither, to get involved in this consultation and tell us what you think. Thank you very much. Thank you Councillor Bruce. So if we can swiftly move to the vote. Members in favour of the recommendations? Marvellous. And those against? And any abstentions? Okay, so the recommendations in this motion are carried. Thank you very much. As you know, the third motion has been withdrawn us in a rare moment of agreement. We've all agreed. Agenda item 21, there are no urgent matters. And agenda item 22, the next meeting of this council is Tuesday the 27th of May 2025. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I'd like to thank everyone for attending and contributing tonight. And please remember to sign the attendance book if you haven't already. Thank you very much.