Transcript

Transcript

Thanks. Good morning members of the committee and officers present this morning and the corporate results of everybody in the committee meeting on the 13th of June, 2024. The reason I'm introducing the meeting this morning is because this is the first meeting since the annual meeting of council to appoint the chairs of committees and at the annual meeting the council of servant the independent group would chair this committee and the committee has advised that councilor richard jones who sat alongside me in the room here is the chair of the committee for the municipal yes i will now hand over to councilor jones okay thanks steve uh morning members um the first part of the business is item two which is appointment of vice chair can i have any nominations please uh councilor i moved the name of councilor bill crease who served as vice chair last year and did a sterling job thanks council person can i have seconder for that please chair i'd like to second councilor bill crease um in addition to what alice has just said um counselor reese um took over as chair in your stead for one of the meetings and i thought he did a very good job so i'd like to see that continue okay thanks members thanks for that tina did you want to put another nomination forward is that yeah can i sorry can i propose jean and madison please okay can i have a seconder for that nomination please i can see two vicki and billy so vicki okay in that case um can i show of hands for bill crease please six account six okay and then a show of hands for gina madison oh so six for bill crease so great council crease so council crease at six six to four so council creases his um vice chair thank you members so i'll go through a little bit that i usually say ahead of these meetings because i do hold a fairly informed meeting not completely informed uh which means i'll allow all members uh officers and observers to participate um to the benefit of the discussion although everything must go through the chair so if you wish to speak use the raise hand function online um not that it applies this morning but if we're in the chamber then obviously raise your hand and i will get to you um you'll be reminded by by steve if i miss it and i just like to thank everybody for voting for myself and for bill crease and um you know we've got a lot to do this year so just an assurance really that we will be effective over the next 12 months because it's going to a lot of this stuff coming forward um you know in the transformation is going to depend on what we do in this committee so it's really important this committee and i've said this before you'll notice that you know the chief executive and the monitoring officer they attend every one of these meetings and that's for a reason they don't attend other scrutinies or every time but they do on this committee and that's that's the importance of this committee so don't underestimate it it's really important committee so item three um is apologies uh chair no apologies been received for the meeting this morning and i think everybody is in attendance aren't they i think council ron davis is not showing on okay but ron davis is not showing online i i note that um i don't think anybody else two members of observers helen brown council brown and council parker to hear the observers and i can see online uh damion hugh's officers garith owen jane davis paul johnson as a member sorry lisa brownville is coming later and shan karni fiona mako i think that covers everybody the chief exec yeah sorry all right so yeah thanks for that um so actually i we don't need to we don't need to vote on that there's no apologies yeah so item four declarations of interest are there any including whipping declarations are there any declarations that need to be made no one's indicating chair i can see online so okay that's great so item five minutes of the meeting so we started at page five this is the meeting from the seventh of march 2024 um some different members um so item sorry page five page six chair yes go ahead dave um item 81 the social value update um i asked whether that could be sent out um i wasn't a member of the committee at the time so i don't know if it was sent out or not but if it was could it be could be included in that um report please the mailing list for that we'll check to see whether it was sent out yeah we'll make sure that if it wasn't sent out we'll send out to all members including yourself dave and if we did receive it you'll get a copy regardless thanks counsel marshall i just got a minor uh correction to number 81 it's the use of the word latter in the six months i believe that should be last six months oh yeah thank you okay thanks page seven page eight page nine page 10 which is just a signature so can i have a mover and a show of hands please to with those changes i can see many hands council marshall council coggan yep council shell cross so we've got a show of hands to move it through myself yeah thank you members okay steve it was six actual tracking page 11 steve i think that's yours yes thank you chair this is the report that comes back every month to to committee just to um keep a track of any actions arising from previous meetings um members will see that it's very light this month because um it's been um coming forward from from previous months and the one from december last year has been closed it's moved across to the ford work program um which will be determined in the next item um the next one from february just needs to i just need to pull that one up and check that that has been sorted because um there was a question mark about that one and the third one the the letter um has been issued and the drift drafted and sent to the home office and the welts government for their information about the um feedback from the homocides that were on the budget last month so i'll take any questions chair thanks steve members any questions members or comments i don't see any hands raised so can i have a move of the recommendation that we note the progress that has been made on those items please thanks councillor shellcross uh seconder please council crease and then a show of hands please to support the recommendation that looks like it's alan have you raised your hand i can't see okay thank you members item six item seven forward working program steve this is yours yeah thank you chair um again this is a standard item that comes back every month just to um they're committed to be aware of what's coming up in the in the subsequent plan for the work program um and that um starts at pen mix one again it only includes july currently um because um at the time of publication or preparation of the report the dates haven't been formally and finally agreed for from september almost what they have now so that will be filled in um for the next meeting in july um and members will note there is a list of items to be scheduled over the coming year and as the chair mentioned of the transformation program is is one of the um will be a key part of that so um and there's also note the change of date in july um and that that's as a result of the um general election being called for the 4th of july which impacts on um the team who prepare the agendas and host meetings being diverted to election duties so we've moved some meetings around and all members have been made aware of that front moving forward so um obviously this this month we're remote but come july we will revert back to um hybrid and have to take any questions or suggestions for items chair okay thanks steve any questions members or comments on in relation to that council neverson um thank you chair um i would suggest a standing item um for agendas moving forwards um the uh council's constitution and procedure rules 741c say the overview and scrutiny committees may question members of the cabinet um about their views on issues and proposals uh affecting the area um we're obviously very grateful to have the attendance of the cabinet members uh to respond to points in relation to the specific um reports tabled um but the power of oscs to ask questions more generally is one that there hasn't really been the opportunity or structure to do historically i would suggest that as a standing item on the agenda the two cabinet members whose portfolios fall under the um corporate resources overview and scrutiny committee be invited um for members question time at alternating meetings so we have the cabinet members of finance at one meeting cabinet member for governance at the next and so on um to enable members to ask general questions of the cabinet member um in relation to those functions in line with the constitution yeah i've got no issue with that i mean we generally we have questions the cabinet members in the past but i think to formalize that i think it's it's quite correct garith you you've got your hand raised is that something you want to comment on there is chair yes um chair with respect i think that's a misreading of the constitution the intention there is to say that cabinet members can be asked questions in relation to matters on the agenda if members wish to raise questions in relation to cabinet members there is a just in general there is a formal process for doing so at council you know this isn't intended to be a turn up and it's not intended to create a you know we can add whatever item we like to the agenda to ask this to ask cabinet members about whatever pops into our heads on the day there is a formal process with notice to allow cabinet members to be questioned but with proper warning about the issues so that they can look into them rather than just um as i say you know whatever happens to be whatever happens to pop into the heads of the members on the day in relation to a question they feel like asking on the morning i think if i may come back yeah just one second i think on that garith um i think what alistair is saying i'm not reading into his mouth but we we can question cabinet members on the day can't we we we can question them on the items within the agenda asking direct questions not just to the officers we can actually question the cabinet member as well can't we yeah indeed and that's a normal part that's a normal part of scrutiny chair um and it doesn't require a separate standing item but it is uh and and the the part of the rules that uh counselor rivetson is quoting is just being clear about that being normal scrutiny you know that being a normal part of scrutiny scrutinizing items that are on the agenda this isn't you know it isn't the equivalent of prime minister's question time for cabinet members it's scrutiny okay council rivetson you want to come back council marshall you're there but let's just sort this point out first if you don't mind thanks uh thank you chair um there's two uh points i'd raise in response to the chief officer for governance's points in relation to questions on specific items and he's referred to and that being the intention of this section that is covered in a separate subsequent section of the constitution where the overview and scrutiny committee may scrutinize the decisions by and performance of the cabinet in relation to individual decisions and over time that is the specific issues that appear on the agenda the intention of that part is clearly what the chief office of the governance has just set out and what already happens if the intention of the previous part that i've referred to was exactly the same it would be inherently redundant so it seems quite clear given the broad scope of the drafting of that and the distinct provision for what already happens and that the intention is quite clearly um basically what i've said and secondly um this is routine at a number of other local authorities overview and scrutiny committees and it seems to me to bolster the democratic accountability of the council and i can't imagine that the cabinet members would wish to shy away from it now galluth are you going to come back on that just to clarify so chair there are two but there are 7.4 7.4 in the constitution includes specific functions and it separates our policy development and scrutiny um now we don't tend on our agendas to separate our policy development and scrutiny um we actually tend to have a practice of just bringing everything bringing almost all decisions uh to cabinet for pre-scrutiny whether they be about performance reporting which is the scrutiny element or whether they'd be about policy development um which is obviously the former part and the the provisions are mirrored uh in relate almost mirrored in relation to both just to be clear that in relation to that as i say you know and as you did you rightly said yourself chair well you know when we ask questions of cabinet members at committee as part of our functions as i say if there were to be a general if there if members wish to ask free roaming questions about something that's not on the agenda that process is set out in the constitution for many questions to cabinet members at council okay thank you i think what what section 7.4 does is just set out the remit of scrutiny in relation to reports that come to it it isn't intended to be a separate standing uh agenda item okay council marshall he said something um just spoken to uh steve goodrum about before is about policies not being available on the internet um and he told me to bring it to the attention of this committee maybe steve could explain what what he thought of that because i can't find policies on it hey steve do you want to respond to that uh yeah council marshall um there has been some i think you've had correspondence from from becky jones customer service and management about the policies so i think that's been dealt with um outside of this process now so um as i understand she's now looking to that so um i think i need to run this course in the in the first instance that's okay okay thank you so it it's right that all policies should be available on the internet to members isn't it for reference yes yeah so they should all be there alan and we'll make sure that happens so okay i'm pretty sure they should all be there but they're not there i can't find them okay that's the difficulties yeah okay we'll make sure that does happen um share sorry if i can just come in on that point and the reason that um we that becky jones uh referred to becky jones is because becky jones chairs a a small working group of officers who look at the website and try to make sure that the website is up to date because council marshall has experience has gone to look at policies when he's managed to find one policy in particular he found that the policy was out of date um and so i raised that with becky jones and said look you know uh becky this one's out of date get it updated but please make sure through that working group uh that policies that are on our website are up to date so that you know when counselors or residents want to look for them they can find them and they can find the relevant most up-to-date document it's um not an unreasonable request yeah my way to say that there really isn't a process when things change we don't automatically update them online which it should be really shouldn't it um there isn't a centralized process for that because each portfolio and each chief officer is responsible for making sure that the information pertaining to this their portfolio and the services within their portfolio is up to date um so there isn't a centralized policy and we don't have you know we don't have a team of people uh with the capacity and responsibility to do that and that's why i flagged council marshall's concern with becky uh because she talks to the individuals in each of the portfolios uh who are responsible for keeping that portfolios data uh and information uh up to date and current um because as i say you know it's not an unreasonable request by council marshall but if he finds a policy online it should be an up-to-date version of that policy absolutely so assuming that these things come through the cot the chief officer meetings team um perhaps an extra line to say well when they when chief officers update their own record for their own portfolios that they inform becky just as a matter of course so that she can update the online version that would probably be an extra line but probably worthwhile having you know becky doesn't do the updates to the website um we have a we have a number of people across the organization who amongst other responsibilities have the role of updating the website for say social services or street scene or or planning and environment and economy um that's what i mean bet it's becky coordinate tries to coordinate that activity prompts people to do it but becky doesn't have a team with the capacity to uh you know constantly keep the website up to date there isn't a single central person or a team in the organization that keeps the website up to date okay it's never been established in that way can we ensure then that the chief officers keep their own portfolios up to date which should take that into consideration that should even if you're centralized each chief officer should be responsible for its own portfolio beyond up-to-date online indeed i'll um i'll raise it as an item um at the next at the next available chief officer team meeting just to say that this was an issue that was raised um you know rightly raised by council marshall and was agreed by cross at cross that we need to make sure that that website is up to date which should go almost go without saying really chair okay thanks gareth cheers for that is that okay alan you're happy with that uh yes thank you the issue arose when i was looking for grass cutting policy and it referred to the 2018 version which i was trying to find the 2023 version i found that on the intranet internet looking in but then that version talks about the 30 mile an hour limits which hasn't and it hasn't changed due to the 20 mile an hour our limits which may change again of course but all right okay thank you all right thanks for that darlin i'm not sure who came first i think it's council coggins go ahead coggins cogan morning dave uh thank you uh thank you chair um i just want to pick up on the chief um officer for governance points about the um difference between questioning in the committee and questioning for council as the uh chief officer has reminded me in the past for council does not perform a scrutiny function whereas the committees do perform a scrutiny function um the chief officer may remember that he restricted a previous agenda item that we were only allowed to discuss the procedure of an item and not the substantive points of the item um so i think asking questions within the committee has a more dynamic and useful function um and secondly i just wanted to add that the whole reason i wanted to come onto this committee is because i respect the work of the committee members here and i think they have a slightly more structured um approach to scrutiny rather than just sort of pursuing the latest thought that's floated into their heads um i think that it's uh it's a bit more strategic and developed than that thank you chair thanks counsel tony's cogan okay council woman thanks thanks chair um i've been involved with this scrutiny committee for some years now certainly as a cabinet member but it's definitely about you know the question that was raised can we make it an informal question it might turn into an interrogation of the cabinet member if we go down that route unlike the chair said richard you know he likes to keep he would like to keep this committee open um and at the end of the day i believe that cabinet members are very free to you know pay their worth of what they believe in and what they've discussed at cabinet and there's no need to go down this formal obsession to question the cabinet member keep it open keep it informal and that's the way forward that i feel is the best solution thanks councilman for your words sorry carth you wanted to come back thank you chair i don't want to promote um you know and from along a constitutional debate but i think we're complacing a number of issues here um for council doesn't do detailed scrutiny um correct that's the work of this committee the powers of this committee to do the detailed scrutiny or what is set out at 7.4 uh within the constitution and that establishes um if it ever needed to be established but that clearly sets out there that you scrutiny committee members can question cabinet members as well as officers about issues and they and that gives you the basis effectively it's it's making explicit the basis that you had rightly understood chair your cabinet members come to this committee and they get asked questions by members of this committee and that's correct that's the right place and it just sets out the powers to do that um questions of cabinet members um in the context of items on the agenda uh can be as wide-ranging as members wish and as detailed as members wish if members want to ask questions about something that isn't on the cabinet agenda that's the purpose of the forward work program item so that members can have items added because they say well look i want to ask the cabinet member questions about x y or z you have the forward work program item so that members of the committee can then you know raise for future meetings uh before uh your issues that they wish to have discussed so that cabinet members and officers can prepare and we can give you detailed and appropriate answers and questions um question if members have an issue that's a live issue they can ask those questions and they want to do that sort of pmq type questioning um of members around policy issues around cabinet members around policy issues the venue for that is council and there is a procedure that is set out in the constitution for that at council um and the point that you counselor uh cognizant now referred to um discussion and debate around uh reports that are needed where we use the exceptions process in relation to calling um and i said you know council doesn't do scrutiny uh of those issues because we were going to get we were at risk of getting into discussions about the fleet contract on that occasion that's because that process is a transparency process for a transparency mechanism to share if cabinet asks for something to be exempt from um calling which is a significant step um it is right that cabinet should explain uh to full council why it has taken that significant step and that is the process uh and that is uh that we'll go through at the next council meeting in relation to aura but there we are talking about the reasons for exempting something from calling you're not talking about the topic we won't be talking about the contract with with aura what we'll be talking about is why do we need to exempt something from calling and it's about it's about there being transparency and accountability in relation to as we said what is a significant step namely exempting something from calling so there are a number of different processes and they fit together as a whole chair um but it's what we shouldn't be seeking to do is duplicate those processes elsewhere because um we wouldn't have the necessary safeguards um that are encompassed in those other processes so for example questioning cabinet members at council is done on notice and that allows for the cabinet member to seek advice if they need to from officers so that a proper answer is given at the time rather than a cabinet member being perhaps taken by surprise on an issue on the morning and you know simply doing their best to give an answer which may or may not be um the fullest answer that could be given so chair the constitution is carefully drafted it fits together it slots together um and we shouldn't be trying to uh we shouldn't be trying to you know replicate or duplicate processes um without actually also covering all the safeguards that fit in where we've got them in the right place already okay thanks Gareth council everton i'll let you come back um i always i always allow people if they've got something to say to come back in if it's something of any substance and i i imagine it is just with the following comment though uh council everton there is another committee which these things can be brought up at and i know that a lot of people on this committee have a particular interest in the constitution and to be perfectly honest i respect that um what i don't want to do is um and i know you've brought this up for a particular reason i don't want to cloud the issue of finance and transformation for the next 12 months in relation to constitution so i'll let you come back because we've got a lot of work to do you know that but council everton come back anyway um thank you chair um in relation to um what the uh chief officer governance has said and i must apologize that my internet collection has led to me dropping out a number of times over the last few minutes um so i may not have heard everything and and so forgive me if he has um already answered these points um but the um wording in the constitution is that um members of the committee may ask questions on issues affecting the area not issues on the agenda paper um the wording in the constitution is i would say very deliberately um broad and allows for this kind of thing as i've said other local authorities at their overview and scrutiny committees um have adopted this approach i wouldn't dare venture to say that they're improper to do so um and it is within the powers of this committee um to do so the chief office of governance seems to be advancing the idea that it isn't beneficial for this committee to do so and that's obviously a decision for the committee but um it's quite clear that the constitution doesn't preclude the uh committee from doing this in the way that it's drafted um so it would be a decision for the committee in relation to um questions at full council um the format of those is as chief officer governance correctly points out very different from what's being suggested here um and uh the scope um for obtaining answers and information um is quite different in the event of um a a member wanting a full and detailed answer as chief officer governance suggests obviously at full council officers will write a response for the cabinet member who will then read it out um whereas at committees um cabinet members generally have been uh much more willing to engage um on their views um rather than um the exact uh you know requesting access to information so good examples of this would be at the last cabinet meet at the last full council meeting um where a question was tabled to the cabinet member for planning in relation to information on enforcement action taken by the council that's obviously something where uh information is being sourced detailed response was prepared um i think that was very useful to everybody at the meeting um at the um environment and economy overview and scrutiny committee earlier this week um cabinet members for street scene transportation and um for planning were able to engage um on their views on issues in a more unstructured setting um which would not have been possible within the process at um full council given the way in which that is set out um the powers of rscs in this regard are detailed in the way that they are in the constitution i would say um quite clearly with the intention of allowing a different form of scrutiny and questions than is available at full council the two complement each other not overlap okay thanks council person uh council crease go ahead thanks chair i just want to jump back uh to the issue we're discussing very briefly about updating the website if as a council we're moving towards uh using digital interface to interact with our service users then it's critical it's not something that should be well you know we've got a number of people and this could happen that could happen if we're going to use uh digital interactions as the main interface with our service users then it's of paramount importance that our website is current up to date and doesn't allow you for any confusion just an observation thank you yeah and i totally agree i i know in a past life when these things were done the actual changes that were made by wasn't officers obviously by the chief managers when they made those changes they actually it was the same document linked to the online the online website so the changes that were made at that point were actually updating the online data so that's the only way you can confer otherwise you end up with different you know different kind of revisions which is a problem so i we're somewhere i think we're some way away from that because we're still dealing if you like paper versions locally within the portfolio which has no connection linked to the online data and that's probably i think that's probably a fair assumption um in relation to these comments that have been made and i know because we have particularly we have members who are particularly interested maybe we should suggest that this item goes to constitution and that um it can be deliberated there probably more fully i don't want to take the time up in this committee doing that because i i think we've got we've got things to talk about really that are i'm saying more important this is that's an important issue but i think that we really need to get our teeth into so um i'm happy to accept a recommendation for it to go to constitution if somebody wants to do that council if you're happy to do that you seem to have disappeared um councillor coggins coghin would you want to do that or council creason you've got your hand raised i'll second that and hopefully members would say that's where it should be it should be deliberated so let's have a show of hands for that recommendation on that um that seems to be it's not unanimous council isnt voting for that i can't see councillor coggins cogan but it's it's the majority of people would appreciate that and council liberton i don't know whether you're on that committee but if you aren't on that committee i think you'd be given the um you'd be given the latitude definitely to to be able to speak at that committee and make your points as would uh councillor coggins cogan i think it's only fair and properly you get that uh opportunity so um no we're still on item seven we're still on the forward working program um are there any other comments i mean i've got just it's not really a particular comment but the idea that this this committee will will assume the oversight role yes of the transformational change program which has been developed and to do that there's going to be discussions about the terms of reference of this committee because we will have to change there are some things which are included in the terms of reference in this committee which um will need to be changed things will need to be added revised and things will need probably to be deleted from and we're going through that process in a minute to accommodate the additional workload because there will be additional workload and that that additional workload of that change of terms of reference should start in september we don't want this to take too long so you know this i i keep saying this committee will be of paramount importance in the coming months and the terms of reference um will changes to the terms of reference would be of vast importance of 25 26 26 27 um that will clearly challenge our finances over the next two three years so we we really need to if you like clear the deck so we could we're talking more about finance and the finance future than we are about some of the other things that we have at this committee so um i think the recommendation was the committee considers the draft forward working program i if there's no other members wanting to speak i believe we've done that um and we've already we've already put forward a third recommendation which we've already voted on so can i remove for the two recommendations shown on page 15 thanks gina and vicki and the second we'll take that as a seconder and then a show of hands please from members okay okay it's not unanimous else do you not voting for that for the other two okay um i'd be voting against okay okay thanks can i just um i've missed the lights i'm actually for myself um what i wanted to do um but yeah it's a bit remiss of me in the regular items that are coming forward and alistair's mentioned some items um the joint funded care package we already do don't we we already do that on a quarterly basis and probably that should be in there that should be in there as a regular item the joint funded care package that should be noticed quarterly and i think we the council plan is done half yearly is that correct state yes um can i i know we voted and this is probably out of gallifrey advised me to be perfectly honest the council plan i don't know how people how members think but sometimes the council plan by being i know it's probably a bit more onerous for officers but when it's only done twice per year it actually falls out of our memory i suppose and i'm not sure whether members would like it to come back quarterly or whether officers are capable of doing that um is that something you want me to look at after this meeting to see whether we can bring it back quarterly is that something that members would be interested in doing okay we can look at ours in action because i i think it'd be probably be better to do that but um okay all right sorry members i should have i should have brought that up at the time item eight is that we're now moving on to item eight which is the joint funded care packages jane jane is online i think she's online hi jane i'll hand it over to you jane lovely thank you chair thank you members for the time this morning um so you have in front of you the report that i've prepared and you can see in section 1.06 of the report uh that we currently have at the end of may sorry uh outstanding 30 invoices of 716 615 pounds as you can see there is an increase on previous reporting in december and that relates to an increase in the level of short-term debt um that we are pursuing with the health board and many have already been satisfied and since the period of the 41st of may through to today um but also um we've analyzed of course the longer term debt which is something that we've reported on the insta vc on a number of occasions uh so of the remaining debts as you can see there 162 000 are invoices of the year and over and there has been a slight reduction um in that forgetting the previous report and the remaining 261 000 relate to four individuals who were currently progressing with our and health board colleagues you'll recall from previous meetings that those individuals are actually very historic invoices from many years ago now and the information whilst difficult to find is coming through to us it is a long and interesting process that we're going through at the moment but we are seeing resolution so definitely steps forward on all of those four particular cases and i also just wanted to raise with members as well and i currently provide the chair with some supporting information to support those figures and the chair is asked that that be an appendix for future reports so i've taken that as an option already ahead of the meeting and the supporting information is provided with an extract from masterpiece which is the operating system for our financial services within the authority and and masterpiece is actually the source document of all information and all the debts that we pursue the supporting information is just an extract for the purposes of committee and to support um so um under due diligence i have checked through all of the information our masterpiece with colleagues who sit in accounts payable and accounts receivable to ensure that all of those outstanding debts that are allocated to social services are correctly coded it was uh proven for me to do so and i've done that as part of our ongoing as you know we have very regular conversations and meetings regarding uh the pursuance of these outstanding invoices and i have noticed and the chair has kindly allowed as well that one of those um invoices that was reported back in january wasn't on the supplemental information sheet that i provided to the chair that's my mistake uh human error i'm afraid and it was for 560 pounds and 82 pence so my apologies for that chairs also raised with me that there was another invoice with an outstanding amount of 586 pounds and 32 pence which didn't appear on the supporting information list that i provided to him back in july 2023 and i just reviewed that information as well with our colleagues within accounts payable and accounts receivable and and they are just confirming back to me that and where that information was but i'm pleased to report that it was reported correctly in october and in december and again for this june report as well so i just wanted to give that opportunity i had the opportunity but happy to take questions chair thank you hey thanks jane appreciate that and uh council ibertson you have a question um thank you chair uh let me start by um moving recommendation one um could i ask chair um obviously this report is tabled under the name of the deputy leader at the council and cabinet member for social services um who has historically um made the effort to be present at these meetings when this issue is being discussed have you had anything from the cabinet member um as to why she isn't able to be here today no just had an apology that she couldn't make them in today's meeting so not aware of the reasons for that council um in that case i would move a second um recommendation uh a second um uh motion that says um this committee regrets that the cabinet member was not able to be present to answer questions on the report in their name okay thanks i think yeah i mean normally that would that would be the case and they should be here to to answer questions um to be honest my biggest issue in this was and i think jane has already dealt with it we have never ever at this committee and this has been going on don't don't forget since 2021 and jane wasn't involved at that point but since 2021 when it was first picked up as a write-off this was i think it was 113 000 as a write-off in social services budget and this is how it started uh it wasn't until then we realized that the amount of standing was 1.285 million and jane's done a good job great job to get it down to where it was i think it was great in december it's not so great now but i know that those are short-term um short-term invoices but i think what what we need to do from now on and it's going to come back quarterly this this extract from masterpiece which i've got in my hands if i if other members of this committee had that they would instantly see what you're describing so they would instantly be able to see the days overdue between 53 and 72 the value of that being approximately 300 000 ish and then whatever's left is the long-term debt which varies between 181 days and 2050 days now 2050 days there's there's one invoice that comes from 2018 which we and the whole purpose of coming back to this committee actually was not the short-term debt the kind of 90-day debt um it was because the debt between six months and well six years uh was that was the debt we were trying to clear so we're still trying to clear that debt and what is interesting is that some of this some of these things get cleared bit by bit so that we're not clearing whole invoices so it is a bit of a concern to me that we have to have this conversation with Betsy Cadwallader and i where where we can chip away at an invoice almost pound by pound because that's how it's it's probably set up within the invoice so my question would be i suppose to Jane uh first of all i think we need to revisit the process for this because i know the process which is not fair as far as the local authorities concerned and i'll just give you a bit of a potted history because when this first came out we had a process description of how this was was described from Welsh government which allows Betsy Cadwallader and the local authority when they give care to a person let's say any any person that care is given and it's valued at for example 10 000 pounds they will agree at that point the percentage that should be care and the percentage that should be for health and the local authority pays the whole and then we invoice Betsy Cadwallader so let's say it's 10 000 pounds we agree to 50 50 we pay the 10 000 and we invoice Betty Cadwallader for 5 000 pounds the risk is all on us after that event Betty Cadwallader come back to us and say well actually we think it's worth 30 percent from us and 70 from you and we will appeal that process but when we appeal that process there is no representation from the local authority that's the problem is that we don't get to represent ourselves at any appeal which is unfair at the very least that's the Welsh government process and my view is is that we should fight that we there should be representation from local authority if you're going to appeal you need to be represented to be able to appeal that correctly i think that's the same state of affairs Jane at the moment isn't it that we we don't have representation of the appeal process so what can happen is that we end up with invoices we've given to Betsy Cadwallader where we anticipate an amount so you know i'll give you an example there's an invoice here 927111 26 407 90 we that's what we expect to get back from Betsy Cadwallader but they are only going to pay us 21 361 will even balance because they're not agreeing to pay the whole the risk is wholly on us and it's not fair so and it's it's large amounts of money you're talking about you know you're getting on for 300 000 quarter a million pounds that is our money and we just can't get it back and that's why it's here on this committee so i you know i know jane knows that and she works very hard to get that sorted and it's not fair on us and if we at the end of this we perhaps need if we can't get this sorted we perhaps need to go back to Welsh government write a letter describe the problem and say look this needs to be sorted we need the representation of the appeals process it isn't good enough so that's where we're going to i think if we don't get this sorted um that's why i keep going on about it so i appreciate alistair you've put the um recommendation one and your notes on a record not a recommendation but a comments for two um i'm not sure whether you want to put a recommendation three to think about this change of process or maybe we should wait perhaps another month or two perhaps september we can we can think about if it doesn't get cleared up we will be writing a letter to welsh government i think that's that's probably the better way to do it so we've had a we've had a proposition of councillor coggins colgan go ahead uh thank you chair it's just a small procedural thing i have to leave the meeting but councillor andrew parkhurst is going to sub in for me thank you chair okay thanks dave thank you chair was that substitution notified to you prior to the start of the meeting as the rules require no it's an invalid substitution carol so no can't be can't be taken sorry we will just know that council cognizant has leaving or has left the meeting okay um okay so uh i can't see anybody indicating anybody else indicating we've had a mover for the recommendation uh can i have a seconder please i'll second that anyway and then a show of hands please for the recommendation uh please yep there's enough there to move that through thank you members so item nine thank you jane uh item nine the welsh linewick annual monitoring report page 29 and i believe that's uh fiona michael fiona go ahead i think you're there somewhere oh there you are yeah sorry good morning thank you everybody um this is the welsh language standards annual monitoring report which we are required to produce every every year the welsh language standards set out what we have to do in welsh and this report is an opportunity for us to say what we have been doing to comply with the welsh language standards but it's also an opportunity for us to showcase some of our achievements and some good practice so there are some examples in the report of activities we've been undertaking and to go over and above really the welsh language standards so we've been working with banger university on their out of their project which aims to increase the use of incidental welsh with employees within teams so it's um just using whatever welsh you have whatever level of welsh you have and whether you can just say borrowed up and hounder it's encouraging employees to use welsh with each other we've also had some employees have been taking part in making some recordings of words and phrases that can be used during meetings and on the telephone to support employees with their pronunciation and to give them some ideas of things that they can say in during meetings um and also our learning and development team have also been able to increase the number of employees so we're now learning welsh so we've had a significant increase during 23 and 24 um we have experienced recruitment challenges um recruiting welsh speaking and speaking people to the organization to apply for jobs and then to be appointed and we're not the only organization who's experienced this so we have been working with other organizations in northeast wales um including rexham council and collicambria to produce some videos to give some examples of how employees are supported to use welsh in the workplace so two of our employees took part a welsh learner and a welsh speaker to show how flinch county council supports employees to use their welsh at work and what tools we've got available to help people develop their confidence and their skills so it's to reassure welsh speaking job applicants that they don't have to worry that their welsh is not going to be good enough but to encourage them to step forward and that we will support them develop their skills whilst they're at work um we've also had the regional public services board has commissioned uh yythe the center for language planning to look at the issues and some solutions and for recruiting welsh speakers to organizations assist an issue across wales the the results of that report will be available later this year but there have we have been participating in workshops with yythe and some of our employees have been interviewed by yythe as well as part of that project in terms of complaints um we've had one complaint made directly to the council about not complying with the welsh language standards and that was to do with the form for booking the chair of the council to attend events an english only form was sent out to the um to the organization and now that's been resolved because i believe now that form is now bilingual five complaints were made directly to the welsh language commission because members of the public don't have to come direct to the council they can go straight to the welsh language commission and make complaints so the commission decided on three of those complaints they were not going to investigate any further because either we had shown that we had taken corrective action and we could prove it or that they were investigating already a similar issue with the council and and they did not think it was well to start another investigation uh two complaints they did investigate and have issued enforcement action on the council one was with the council taxi form and receipt and i can confirm now that council tax worked very hard with their third party provider for reforms to make all the changes required by the the commission and to do it in the time frame as well so i know that took a lot of work and from the council tax team the other enforcement action we have had which is an update on the report it's in the report because the commissioner's issued the final notice recently is that we've had complained about the my counselor page on the website where we had some welsh place names was spelt incorrectly and english was on the welsh page that that page has now been corrected and that's we can confirm that with the commission but they've also asked us to sample 10 pages of the website every year to check that welsh is equal to english and to reassure cross we have um complaints as a standing item that's our through advice rei meetings our welsh language network meetings chaired by the chief officer for education and youth it's also welsh language is also included as a standing item at the council's web group which um gareth always referred to earlier so we're always looking at welsh language um and where we're up to with it and i also have monthly meetings with the chief officer for education and youth to um to look at the welsh language complaints and are we doing what's required of us and by the welsh language commissioner moving forward for 24 25 we will be developing a welsh language skills strategy to ensure that we develop enough employees who were able to speak welsh so that we can guarantee providing bilingual services to our customers we're also going to aim to reduce the number of employees who say they cannot speak any welsh at all because we have a significant number of employees who say they cannot speak any welsh or use any welsh and also we will be continuing to do our self-assessments with services against the welsh language standards just to make sure that all the services are complying with the standards and that we can identify any areas for improvement before any complaints are made and we can make the changes so that's a quick overview really of our welsh language and your report and i'm happy to take any questions thanks fiona thanks for that council riverson you have your hand raised go ahead um thank you chair this report is in the name of the cabinet member for education youth and sorry education welsh language and culture um has the cabinet member um sent apologies to you in advance of this meeting uh no i think you know i mean the cabinet member for social services in the past as on the previous item has made an effort um to attend these meetings in the past despite uh not normally having business on them when when they've had a report on them um and um has obviously sent apologies this time as is right and proper i think it's disappointing when cabinet members with reports in their name on an osc agenda don't make the effort to show up and don't even send apologies as such i would move that the committee is deeply disappointed at the cabinet member for education welsh language and culture's non-attendance at this committee it's not possible for um members of the overview and scrutiny committee to ask questions on reports um as the chief officer has suggested is is writing proper if um cabinet members choose not to show up to committees and without having um proper scrutiny a proper opportunity um to do so um to require cabinet members presence um for four questions um then it would appear that um the the mechanisms are broken so i move that this committee is deeply disappointed at the cabinet member for education welsh language and culture's non-attendance for this item chair if i may um i i can't actually confirm that she was invited to attend cross so it's possibly slightly unfair to express such disappointment that she hasn't attended council marilise without referring to your name as a cabinet member and what i will take an action um to ensure that where any cabinet members are named on reports they do receive an invite and accordingly that is reported back to cross if they are unable to attend so um i'm not necessarily defending anyone here but i don't i can't give you a certain guarantee that the government was invited to so i think it's slightly unfair that we are sort of um expressing such disappointment against a member when they haven't perhaps been given the opportunity to attend so if i may chat councilor mulling yeah thanks very much chair i i understand where council edison's coming from but the reality is as an ex cabinet member your agenda can be full with other commitments and unfortunately sometimes it's very difficult to be at this committee when you've got a whole host of work to get through so if if they're not asked well they don't know but at the end of the day if they can't make it we've got to accept that because they do have and i can i can speak of that and i know linda is is learning the ropes now but at the end of the day it can be a very very busy uh job to do have the best of times thank you yeah i think um actually what steve has said if there's an invitation following that invitation there has to be an apology or attendance that's what should happen so that's my view and if if the member is busy as council mulling has suggested or is on another meeting then it's an apologies and a reason for an apology and that would be that would be acceptable um there you have to prioritize council edison you're indicating to come back go ahead um thank you chair um with um regard to uh what councilor mulling has said um i i you know completely accept that cabinet members may well have um other commitments and um you know it's it's right and proper that when they do they send apologies as the cabinet member for social services and deputy leader has done um with respect to um the head of democratic services um i i can't accept um that the cabinet member in this case would be unaware of important business concerning their portfolio and where it is i i'm sure she's um across the detail um we'll be aware that this work is being undertaken as it is under her name um and we'll understand when things are coming to committee um this i believe is on the um agenda for cabinet as well so i mean i i you know it's it seems eminently reasonable to assume that she does have an interest in it and suggesting that she she wouldn't know she wouldn't be across the detail i think would be um quite offensive to the cabinet member um and again this is sort of um reinforced by the fact that the cabinet member for social services um who i assume is in a similar position um to the cabinet member for education welsh language and culture in this regard has um notified the chair that she'll be unable to attend um i'm i'm sure that the cabinet member for education will have made the effort to to be aware of this business and where it's going um and so i'm i i i can't accept that she would be oblivious as i'm sure she's um very much across her portfolio i to be fair council members i don't think anybody was suggesting that she she wasn't aware i think what was said was that she wasn't invited so when i think um i think in future that the cabinet member will be invited and then the the process will either include an apology or it will include attendance i think that's wholly acceptable um so are there any other questions in relation to fiona mocco's um reports council marshall go ahead thank you chair i'm going to try something i haven't done before um um uh to involve her well a bunch of ways to call you an idiot her very eyes can write in a retro the other my Kevin and any end of finance there's a good one and remote and the assist night the eudene and a shower sours and other names index eyes and the craze we see among shop through shorts letty you die back in ox's system kiva shocked when i see laurie previous column carded when i see the deep and who will middle uh best you don't even go back cuz he said in the middle i went in share that system like soon uh and we'll say hi i'm sir cannot save question i'm delighted to see how much work has been done to promote the Welsh language i was born in nasa valley and although i could understand English i did not speak it regularly until i was about 17 years of age when i started working at a tv repair shop in Carnarvon there was a further shock to the system where i went to university in Cardiff where i became proficient at thinking what i was going to say in Welsh translating in my mind and then blurting it out to reduce the delay in responding to a question i have been through what all second language learners have been through and know that there will be a time when no translation takes place in your mind but i throw the other one describe your best intake with kita quiz for a kangaroo on the other world between quip but um on pimp a lot and sickle and the gum like but are we need kangaroo marretti stewart kangaroo uh linda the you got a show on ppl having a between quisker land yard come right and there's an ebb and or the square the daughter savia maverick they can right have a with a good bottle try a lot higher as without gun and just keep come right have it but in posse be a lot night converse is otitos but that guy come right at panda scores yes the new marabelles this report covers what is happening with fcc employees but i can't see anything about members i'm aware of only five members that's fluent in welsh the leader uh councilor mallet married eastwood linda thew shawn bibby himself i wear the kum rai gland yard but no no learners approached me to practice their welsh um is it i am aware that some officers are fluent and others officers are learning is it possible for members to attend the welsh classes and panda scores so we can practice speaking with learners to help improve our interaction with them one final thing is um there's a well-known saying that if something's worth doing is worth doing well the actual quotation is if something's worth doing it's worth doing badly because it's okay to make mistakes thank you that was excellent that all um and you speak i mean obviously you speak very well and it's lovely to you i'm sure um fionna is quite happy with that really you may have heard my connaughan accent coming through when i speak welsh which disappears when i speak english yeah excellent i've heard it and neil you were next and then fionna and then gareth yeah thanks um and and thank you alan um alan alan will though that i do occasionally um have a little go and i have introduced a number of meetings uh and launched a number of meetings in welsh it's you know it's incredibly important that we um move forward uh more effectively with the promotion of welsh in this authority it's never it's never been uh i guess a thing that we've embraced as much as we really should and i'm extremely keen to uh to promote uh support and endorse the welsh culture and the welsh language um it's it's difficult sometimes isn't it it's a confidence issue a lot of the time um and alan's quite right um there are quite a lot of people in which county council that do speak welsh but they they don't come out and share that uh and we need to and you know yes we'll you know sometimes we do get it wrong there's nothing uh wrong with that uh it there's a lot of positive to be said about that because at least we are trying to um get that message across that welsh is important um you know let's not forget we are in wales okay we're on an english border but the welsh language needs needs increased promotion in this authority and it needs to embrace it needs to be embraced more in this authority and i am really really keen to see that happen i think i think the owner would probably support that view but uh i won't put words into fiona's mouth fiona the point was made by alan that actually before you speak so officers there seems to be a lot of methods or ways that officers can get to speak welsh in courses but there isn't that opportunity i don't think that's offered so to members and to be honest that would be really useful i think that would be something really useful to be honest i because i would take it up um and even just phrases that we could use you know things like i'd like to move the recommendation perhaps we on this committee we should just say that in welsh and just get used to hearing it and saying it just on simple things you know the simple things that we repeat sometimes through the committees if we can just say that um it's a start for some members to be able to do fiona go ahead um just to say it it and it was um it's great to hear welsh being spoken in the meeting and but yeah training is available for elected members and that's organized through learning and development team and i think if we see sharon nodding that we can ask perhaps heather to send the details to um steve goodrum so we can be circulated to all elected members we also have on the internet and some recordings phrases for meetings that elected members can use in meetings so we've got the that you can hear the sound you can see the words and you have the phonics as well so you can see how they're pronounced and so we do have lots of resources that are available and we do encourage our employees to um to use to wear the um lanyards with the the little logo on um and we have the logo we use on the backdrops of um the flinch county council backdrops for virtual meetings and for me i have after my name i have the school so everyone knows i'm a welsh learner so they can practice their welsh with me so we're trying to do more and more to raise the profile of the welsh language and encourage people to use what they know and it's about not being right just as councilor marshall says about not being perfect it's about um using what you know because if you don't practice uh you'll never kind of improve yeah absolutely uh gareth go ahead you got your hand up um so well done to to council marshall's speaking welsh the leader has asked officers to look at arranging simultaneous translation in meetings and it's actually a relatively modest cost um and so um it would be something that we need to put forward as a budget as a budget pressure but it is relative as i say relatively modest cost simply if we don't roll it out at every meeting um and um i think um you will have noticed there chair that simultaneous isn't a welsh word it could be a fad uh could be a could be a thead is uh translation but i don't know what the word for simultaneous is um and the the fire authority have a very good policy of saying what you can um and and you i've literally seen uh you the chief officer the previous chief officer who came from manchester talking to the chair to say tissue paper copy you know would you like a paper copy of that because they will use what language they can and then put in english uh where where they can't and that that gives people more confidence i think because it is about confidence as council marshall rightly identified you know i didn't use my welsh uh for about the first five or six years after i started night school because i was afraid that somebody asked me something that i didn't know the answer to i wouldn't know a word for um and and that's the thing it's about it's about having that the confidence and the comfort just to try and use what you can and and for that to be acceptable um you it's not the fault of the white language commissioner i know one you need the welsh language commissioner i think it's the slightly unintended consequence of having a welsh language commissioner that people do worry because there isn't anybody's going to pick us up on poor grammar for our english but it's always that fear isn't it that we'll be picked up formally uh for poor grammar um on our welsh and i don't think that would be what the welsh language commissioner would want to happen as a result of their office being established okay i'll tell you what um there's there's a third recommendation and that the information be provided to members to enable welsh learning that was something that fiona said could happen and she'll pass some information to steve who i know will try and enable that third recommendation but i'll just say right here now if anybody wants to speak welsh in the words of welsh i mean i'm not going to understand everything i understand a little bit but i never use it because i don't understand enough to form sentences sometimes but if i know the nouns i'll try and drop them in and i'll get corrected probably regularly but i think yeah i think if that's a good idea you know you say what you can and you put english where you don't know i'm quite happy to for any member who's at this committee or is a member of this committee to do that i think that's probably a good idea and um so that that can happen in the future as far as i'm concerned council marshall again yeah thank you for all for that um just want to finish off with a an example of a translation that went wrong which brings a smile to people's face it's a normal one that you see on a supermarket door which is this door is alarmed which translated to welsh and then back to english again meant this door is frightened yeah brilliant okay so uh unless there's any other members wanting to speak so the two recommendations that are on page 29 and the third one that fiona's mentioned that steve will pass information to steve so the information provided to members to enable welsh learning and steve and fiona will work together to enable that so can i have a mover for that please yeah vicki you're vicki and alan i guess you're the two movers and seconder and then a show of hands to support those recommendations is hopefully unanimous i believe so okay thanks fiona thanks for your help okay moving on to agenda item 10 this is the audio office equally equality impact assessment more than a tick box exercise page 57 and i think this is is it chief exactly no it's um oh damian go ahead sorry y'all um good morning everybody um this is a very brief um summary from myself it's it's an update report for cross uh and it's because of a welsh audit whales published report back in september 22 and the aim of the audit was to provide an insight to the approach that equality impact assessments undertaken across public sector in wales there's an appendix attached to the report and there was four recommendations three of which were for welsh government and one was for public bodies so the the recommendation is highlighted in one paragraph 1.04 and that's public body should review their overall approach to equalities impact assessment considering the findings of this report and detailed guidance is available for the qualities in human rights commission and the nhs practice hub we make note that that audit wales also made a similar recommendation in their report time for change poverty in wales which was published in november 2022 um the council agrees with the recommendation and work has already commenced to review the mechanism and approach uh like uh likely taken locally to assess the impact assessments and fiona is is is obviously actively involved at operational level with all this work and she's on the call to ask ask any answer any questions that you may have um in terms of what we're doing as felincia county council i think this may have already been to cross previously but we're involved with a pilot with greater manchester combined authority um in developing a tool for equalities impact assessment but providing that welsh slant on it in terms of the language and other things that we that they don't have in in england and then the further in terms of the outcomes of the evaluation report will be represented across concabinet um so that consideration can be given to the count if the council should adopt the tool and approach for conducting its impact assessments um so that was a very brief run through thank you chair okay thanks to you there seems to be an awful lot in there that i as you said it's um else government should clarify those government should work with welsh government should review it seems like and all through the report isn't it and especially on the appendix is mainly anticipating that welsh government should do things that we require to us to assist um is that a fair assessment damian before i bring in council yeah based on the high level information that i have i mean if you want more in-depth information then fiona will will be the person but yeah most most of the recommendations are for welsh government um and obviously there's one recommendation recommendation for for public bodies which had been mirrored in a previous report and we're already getting on with it as flintshire county council in fact we're the only um welsh authority involved um in that pilot currently okay thanks damian cheers for that council never to go ahead um thank you chair member of corporate services indeed indeed um can i start by asking the cabinet member for corporate services in whose name this report is tabled whether she has read the audit wales report uh yes council rubertson i think i have read the other wales reports brilliant in which case um how would you consider how would the cabinet member for corporate services forgive me chair i should speak through you um consider flintshire's performance compared with the general experience that audit wales found within that report does she consider that the authority is doing well poorly or about average i think i think we're doing okay i'm not an expert on the subject council as soon as you're aware i've been in the past four weeks and trying to get my head around it all is quite difficult considering i'm actually on sick leave so please accept my apologies if my answer isn't thorough enough for you at this moment in time uh no it's very gratefully received thank you um and in terms of um future changes obviously within the report from officers to this committee um related to this the resource implications are quite vague um at this stage and um not particularly pinned down um within issues like this it's not a case of um a service like brass cutting where either you cut it and you incur the cost or you don't and you don't um it is much more woolly um the the standard at which you set and the costs you incur um we could go for gold standard equality impact assessments and incur a significant amount of cost and staff time in so doing we could do a very basic one and meet the legal requirements but not necessarily the spirit of the public sector equality duty given the other resourcing pressures the council faces already and given the inevitable impact of expanding our work on equality impact assessments as audit wales suggests that we perhaps should um would you um consider that the additional resourcing that this would require should come from reductions in other services or from increases to local taxation i think i would have to take some advice on that before i could give you uh an answer uh if you let me take that away i'll be happy to get back to you um i would suggest that that's a political question do you think that this should come as a result of increase do you think it should be increasing council tax or reducing services um that that's not something that i would imagine officers would be able to advise on given it's fundamentally political okay your comments are noted at the moment i'll have to think about it so no no position at this stage not for me no okay and just finally um audit wales refers to the culture of equality impact assessments in wales as being a box-ticking exercise which is something that this committee is i know you're familiar with um has um described them as um before would you agree with the suggestion that um the equality impact assessments at the moment are uh that pleasure conducts are seen as a box-ticking exercise and um would you agree that um they aren't given particular prominence in decision making by elected members at present uh yeah i would agree with that and it's uh certainly not meant to be a tick box exercise and we're aiming that it won't be um yeah yeah thank you very much for taking the time to attend the committee and to answer those questions okay thanks tom shiverton and thank you uh councilor hugh uh chief exec oh thank you sorry councilor thomas i'm sorry yeah yeah sorry sorry chair can i understand i was thanking you to councilor thomas that was all i apologize could i possibly just enhance the um pilot scheme in manchester a bit more for members would that be possible yeah if you just hang on a sec chief exec then yeah council thomas go ahead um yeah the the pilot that's been referred to with manchester university um the authorities taking part there are 10 greater manchester councils and about 20 london councils who are part of this pilot project we're the only authority in wales taking part and we did put our name forward for this um alex ellis from the pee store a presentation at a wlga meeting and he approached the university manchester university was happy to include flintshire county council in the pilot project and they had enough funding as it it is grant funded the wlga will be facilitating a meeting with all wales councils at some time in the future where manchester will present this tool and the results of the pilot project and i'm happy to keep the committee informed of the progress of this thank you chair okay thanks council thomas appreciate that uh chief exec neil go ahead yeah thanks chair um it's um i guess to build on some of the comments that um uh council have some raised which i found quite interesting now some of the some of the aspects around resourcing uh and the point that um council thomas has made about the pilot are first and foremost um if you've ever walked through our equality impact assessments they're they're quite long and they are quite repetitive as well and they're a little bit of a turn-off for staff to complete but complete they have to on certain documentation that we're assessing them against the whole purpose of the pilot is to first and foremost seek to streamline some of that process make it more interactive and give a bit more space for staff to actually consider that a little bit more now some of the fallout from that will be the consideration of resource and that will flow into the body of the report that that particular impact assessment has been considered against um that that's the sort of the the sort of the ideal and virtual virtual circle of course in england um they don't have things like the future generations act and those sorts of things so there are some welsh nuances that need to tie in to uh a welsh derivative of that impact assessment um that's all i wanted to say chair on that particular point thank you thanks for that uh fiona you wanted to comment a deal um just to say about the resources as well that manchester university are at the evaluation stage of the pilot project now so part of that they'll be highlighting some of the resources perhaps that we do need um to help embed this throughout the council but also because the pilot project has taken place in manchester councils and in london councils we're sharing lots of the learning from them as well and how they can do things perhaps more efficiently and effectively and that's been the benefit of being able to have a pipe be part of a pilot project that's wider than just flintshire council so we're hoping it will identify um some things that we can do in a better more efficient way plus in terms of the tick box exercise um steve goodrum is organizing um interviews with manchester university with elected members to look at how we use the outcomes of the impact assessments how they help inform decision making to make sure it they're not just a tick box exercise that they are meaningful and help them inform better decisions excellent okay super uh council madison oh sorry thank you very much chair i didn't realize i was next in line so thank you very much for that um i just wanted to thank fiona very much for a very very interesting report uh to thank count to thank councilor thomas for her response as well i don't see any of this as being a tick box exercise uh the recommendations are very interesting i personally have been involved in equality and diversity initiatives for 50 years speaking also as somebody who comes from several disadvantaged groups working class heritage carer a registered disability looking after people with disabilities and so forth and i personally have always found these assessments incredibly useful and i don't think it's lip service or tick box at all speaking from my 50 years experience and i could actually quote examples at you so thank you very much fiona and thank you linda thank you chair okay thanks calif you want to make a comment thank you chair um chair members who are familiar with equality impact assessments will naturally see the links between this item and item 12 the item about service user perspective and and will also um if if if they're and perhaps somebody like council parkhurst with his previous role on governance and audit committee will know as well through our work through our corporate self-assessment the consultation with residents is an important part of being able to understand the impact and that is an organization consultation is an area where we recognize we could do more and that we could do better as it says in item 12 and so chair we will i think um part of building the use of integrated impact assessments is also about changing some of our practice around the use of consultation and there will be some challenges in there not just for officers but also if i might for members because of course one of the biggest things that we do every year is set the budget and members will know already that that's quite a tight and difficult time scale and one at the moment leaves very little space for conversation with our residents about proposals for budget savings and so i think one of the things that collectively we need to do as a member and officer cohort is work how is work out how we can build time into that time table to consult our residents on budget issues as well which would help to improve our use of integrated impact assessments and at the moment we try to take a proportionate approach to the use of of those IIAs and we require them for all strategic cabinet reports and on the assumption that those are the ones that the biggest impact on our residents and indeed not every strategic cabinet report will have a particular impact on people with protected characteristics some more so than others and so what we really we need to take and i think Neil as the chief executive obliquely referred to this as part of his previous comment earlier comments um we need to take a proportionate approach to this rather than a blanket approach um so that we try and hone in on considering IIAs and the impact on on those with protective characteristics where you know a reporter really is likely to have an impact upon somebody with those protected characteristics and take a much lighter touch approach where we're doing what is essentially some sort of internal monitoring or looking at an internal policy where in reality the impact on a on a resident with protected characteristics may well be quite light and it's horses for courses isn't it is it is a very shorthand way of summing that up chair but we really do need we try and need to try and be proportionate because um council rivetson is correct that if we were to do um a blanket gold gold gold gold plated approach to all of this it could be quite onerous for the organization therefore expensive yeah so the recommendations oh sharon you've got your hand up sorry yeah apologies i'm just picking up on the point garith made i just thought it might be worth sharing with committee that obviously all of our employment policies do have an eia given that we have a a range of of employees very diverse with it with a raft of needs so i just felt it was important to make that point that whilst we might not do it for everything in relation to residents we do for all of our employment policies okay thanks for that confirmation sharon cheers for that um so i don't see any more hands up um the recommendation is to update uh this committee um can i have a move for that please that we have been updated council medicine and then council shall across his second in the show of hands to move that through yeah and that looks like it's unanimous so there's a couple of members that i don't see faces for but yet majority of members thank you members so item 11 now is uh sharon your this is your baby employment and workforce end of year update page 67 for members to look at uh welcome everybody the report and the company and that board in front of you is our year-end report so that's the financial uh year to 31st of march 2024 i'll just reference a few of the specific areas and then take questions if that's okay so as noted at uh section 101 we have had a reduction in headcount across the year and that's been split between schools and non-schools which is our traditional method of doing that we continue to see an increase in turnover as noted at 1.03 so that's increased year on year now for the last three years some of that is natural i guess as a result of our age profile or this is due to competitive offers from other employers which members will have picked up in other meetings we have had some recruitment and retention issues as a result of our pay model you will see that i've noted in there that in addition to the exit questionnaires and interviews that are offered to all employees when they leave we've introduced what we're calling an online lever survey so this is a survey monkey that is emailed to every lever from employment services because we i can guarantee that goes to everybody uh it people can complete it anonymously if they like and we're getting a richer level of detail from that that we can then look at review so that we can put hopefully put some interventions in place and recognize where some of those issues and gaps are at section 1.04 i need to point out there is an error in the published paper the first paragraph first line should read that the year end absence out turn for 23 24 is 10.99 percent which does show an improvement when compared to last year which was at 11.78 i think it's worth mentioning that four portfolios people and resources chief executives governance and planning environments and economy did actually exceed the target of eight days per fte achieving four four point eight eight four point four seven and seven point seven one respectively it's not noted in there but i just thought it was useful additional information i think it's also worth mentioning that out of those who responded to a request that i made to the other 21 local authorities for their out turn we were top quartile which again was reassuring the lowest that's been reported to me out of those was 8.93 days per fte the highest 13.68 so there's a huge range across um those figures will become published in september so i couldn't share where they've come from at this point because they'll come out of the data center in cardiff once they've been produced and verified long-term sickness absence accounts for 6.56 days with the remainder attributed to short term i've made reference to a cipd report there and just to benchmark nationally given a quick overview again of some of our positive interventions that we've tried to do and again as i did last year because i think it's necessary outlined a number of factors that occupational health colleagues have shared with us in terms of impact of our aging workforce changes to the cohort of service users in social care settings delays which we continue to see for our employees in getting appointments with console consultants investigations and so on delays in receiving treatment we've seen delays in people getting diagnosis which then really impacts on their ability to get treatment and significant delays it's fair to say in getting reports from consultants and gps when we have to deal with ill health retirement which is definitely only increase we've got ongoing recruitment challenges which does have an impact then on those who are left in the workforce to pick up the additional capacity and again as noted in 1.04 non-work factors such as health issues families relationships can often be a common cause of stress which impacts on absence moving on to 1.05 agency workers you can see as noted at act 31st of march we had 110 active placements on matrix which is our umbrella contract with a range of agencies and i've noted there by portfolio how many placements were valid at the time of running the report it is important to note there is a snapshot at a point in time it doesn't mean they're all working it just means there's an open placement so that's really important for context cumulative spend between matrix and off contract was 5.3 million pounds with the largest spending social services at 3.07 million and street scene at 1.37 million both social services and street scene have had a considerable number of vacant posts during the course of the year which has a result an underspending salary which in the main is used to fund this spend we are aware in in social services that some of their costs have increased our members may recall that there's been a number of reports taken to cabinet specifically outlining the challenges in children's services and the steps that they've taken to gain you know support for additional funding to deal with those specifically i note in the report that unless there's exceptional case where business cases need we engage we engage people on the same evaluated rate of pay that is our policy and practice but there are occasions where matrix are unable to supply the necessary skilled workers within the time scale that we need and therefore there is and we have written into the policy in the last year that we can step outside of matrix and pay a higher rate but under certain conditions which have to be set and they are that chief offer officer permission is provided and the engaging manager can demonstrate value for money and adherence to the council's contract procedure rules that that business case is provided to the relevant hl business partner and then that we provide that feedback to matrix and procurement so that we can establish why matrix have been able to fulfill that offer for us i won't go into detail but you can see i've noted it's actually 1.07 some of the specific achievements of the team so vivop which was a change in our employee assistance program has been widely used far better than our previous one and we're getting really good feedback on that learning learning at wales again that's another one and our opas system which is a digital way of of managing our occupational health um referrals and reports and that seems to have worked very very positively for both managers and staff as well so i will pause for breath there and take any questions that committee may have okay thanks sharon uh council parkhurst i see your hand up yeah thank you chair for allowing me to speak and thank you sharon for the comprehensive report there's two things i'd like to raise one is regarding the staff absence rate you mentioned that 10.99 of working time was lost um which which is an improvement on the previous year can you can you clarify that that is actually 10.99 percent of working time or is it 10.99 working days um sort of personally and and whilst that is an improvement and that is to be welcomed it's still double pretty much the private sector average and you know we know there are reasons for that you know why the public sector has a higher absence rate but it is nevertheless a very large difference and and i just wonder whether it points to enough action being taken to address absence and then the second point is on the um head count where where you mentioned that the overall head count has reduced and that is of course correct because it includes a large reduction in schools head count the head count of non-schools actually showed an increase in the report of 34 and i appreciate that this is a snapshot in time but i believe a similar snapshot last year showed a similar trend and with the pressure that we've had on budgets not only this year but also in recent years i'm surprised and i'm sure that many others would be surprised that our head count excluding schools is still increasing thank you okay are you happy for me to come back in on that chair yeah please okay so you're correct it should be 10.99 days uh not percentage and whilst i can't access the report with me i think from memory that that equates to something like it's either 5.41 or 5.21 percent is the actual percentage and yes it does differ from uh public to private sector as we've noted um but that's not uncommon the message the question around are we doing north i believe we are um we that the policy is actually in the process of being refreshed i have mentioned that before we're going to take a very different approach um but and so we're out to consultation with hr trade unions and then we'll speak to managers as well around what we can do differently my team worked very very closely with portfolios that managers get trigger reports both long-term short-term we chase to make sure that return to works are completed stage ones are processed we're starting to analyze is there consistency or not in terms of sanctions that are given when people hit those triggers um but i think the biggest issue as i've alluded to in there is that in in some areas people have got real complex needs and they are having huge difficulty in getting access to um appointments that they need from nhs or otherwise and that severely hampers their ability to come back to work um i'm aware of a number of situations of people who've been given um a particular diagnosis have been given a treatment plan that treatment plan has been delayed or the the treatment hasn't gone to plan and then where they were told it was going to be one two or three months off or six months and there's very little we can do in in in that scenario which does represent a challenge for all employers i suspect um as i've noted we've also got a number of portfolios that are doing particularly well in managing their sickness as well but again illnesses and um are indiscriminate and we don't know where they're going to fall and it may just be that those portfolios have been lucky in terms of their staff at this point so without going into a level of detail but i can look for some more detail if it would be useful headcount reduction um increase that that's not in schools without going back and tracking that across the piece it's difficult for me to comment i think we had more vacancies last year and we filled some of those posts which would account for the reduction at the increase in those parts but unless i go back and some do some further analysis i just don't have that information to hand to give you that information but more than happy to ask andrew adams in my team to do a deeper dive into that data if it would assist members i know from personal experience sharon that one of the things in social services because the cohort of people requiring physical intervention at home um then the officers in social services end up having to do more if you like or so a lot of musculoskeletal stuff comes from that because that cohort is increased and therefore they're expected to do more physical effort and work which actually affects them so i know that yeah something that occurs it does and the other thing that you see with social services of course is because of the cohort that they're dealing with whereas for you and i if i got an infection or otherwise i can sit and work from home and if i feel well enough when i continue to work we have to stand those down they can't continue to go and work with those vulnerable adults unless we can put them in a different environment to undertake a different role it's quite challenging for those if they pick up something so that they don't spread that on and of course cause further illness or or worse to some of the very vulnerable people that they're seeking to look after yeah thank you um in relation to the full-time equivalent um calculations and rates is that full-time equivalent staff i.e posts filled or full-time equivalent posts available um given because obviously the vacancy rate would therefore have an impact depending on how that's calculated on the days lost calculation so is the full-time equivalent for posts or employees good question i will try and dig out the source data for you and i'll have a look at that one okay and in terms of the days lost calculations presumably that doesn't include any days lost due to unfilled posts no if this is just physical people who are absent there's a quite a detailed calculation behind the days lost because it's one of the public accountability measures which again i'm happy to share with you if that would be helpful if you'd be happy to circulate that um to the committee after the meeting i'm sure that would be um well received um obviously we've got days lost calculations for absences um do does the council um keep any data on days lost due to unfilled posts and if so is that broken down by posts where there's an active attempt to recruit and posts where there's moratorium on recruitment or is it just held cumulatively if it's held at all um what we have is we have what we call our establishment so we have a budgeted establishment each portfolio is sent that that report monthly that will show them what posts they have filled and what posts are vacant and so they would have the level of detail as to whether that is being occupied by an agency person or something else i wouldn't have that centrally um so i couldn't give you that level of detail for the whole of the organization um so if a um counselor was interested in obtaining that information it would be necessary to go to each portfolio through respective rscs rather than centrally through this one unless yeah i guess unless we could make a request through um myself and gary as finance if we could look at how we if we could pull something together but typically that's managed at a local level uh we'd like to say we just send them their establishment report i can confirm who's in post because we're paying them um but obviously they'll have the detail of who's filling what other posts if they're via agency um well thank you for the clarity i would suggest that um the chair of the committee uh determine whether he wishes this to come back to this committee um and be looked at centrally or whether he thinks it's better distributed to respective rscs for each portfolio i was just going to say alistair i think been as you've asked the question in corporate resources and probably sharon's better place to be able to coordinate that so she pulls if she can pull in with gary ferguson the information sharon if you don't mind to bring that back for for this committee would that be okay yeah i'll see what i can do absolutely all right thanks sharon cheers for that i don't see any of the members with questions i've got a couple of questions that um or a couple of comments i suppose page 68 uh it does show 30 school-based redundancies in a year into december 23 but i think we've got to place that into context because there's an increase of 31 positions last year wasn't there so in last so if you like last year there was an increase of 31 positions in schools and then there's a decrease this year of 30 so you know that's an important comment to make i think non-schools increase was 143 um last year sorry this year it was 34 um i think um high turnover is definitely not something that you want in your business and over the private sector you you anticipate high turnover means you know reduce productivity you spend more hr time recruiting training new employees can lead to a decrease in morale this type of stuff you know it's it's never good but i'm supposed i'm assuming that um in most companies it's very difficult to get control over that type of stuff um page 69 improved attendance now the target for this was eight days wasn't it yes they've lost her full-time equivalent yeah are we are we doing this i mean to me if it's eight and we're not attaining that we've got to say something about that when it comes to these um targets in future we've got to we've got to make it real there's no point in trying to put ourselves at eight if that's not possible within the local authority i'm not suggesting that we change it just downwards because we're not making that what i'm saying is there must be there has to be some kind of consideration conversation if that is if that's what's anticipated why are we not making that target we've got we've got to do a bit more work there i think um i am concerned and there's no real comments on it on page 71 in relation to agency workers um and really one part of it social services last you know the target we put this way the target for agency workers is 1.7 million and we're now at 5.3 and social services is the reason for that it's increase increased from 3.6 million in 22 23 to 5.3 million in total but that increase is purely due to social services their their budget and agency has doubled in the last 12 months so that's something which we you know in my view that needs to be looked at um you know that that's obvious there's obviously a problem there somewhere that or something we're doing which we're not explaining the report which it needs to be explained um and another comment that's made let's find this on page 71 um on page 71 um comment there between social services and street scene transportation they've had considerable number of posts vacant sometime during the year which resulted in an underspend of salary the majority of which has been used to fund agency spend now when we get permanent reductions in posts i know the reports came through in the budget time to show that we benefit from that so we don't fill those posts so we can't do both we can't benefit by not filling those posts but also make a comment that says the majority of funding used will be used for agency spend and i'm just concerned that from a finance point of view that we're not saying we do both we're not saying that we actually pay for our agency spend because we're not filling those posts and then we also say a budget time they're not filling those posts and therefore to benefit to the budget do you get what i'm saying shannon i do and i have to say this one irks me as much as it does you i think every time so if i've understood financial um colleagues information correctly we have a combination there will be some posts that have been given up and are not going to be filled but there are other posts that we have that haven't been given up but we haven't filled so that money is available to be spent so it's just a different method of fill by using the agency um your comment in relation to social services is correct um and it maybe i should have put some more detail there have been two cabinet reports that have gone in the last 12 months or so uh where they have requested specific um additional funding um so that they could fund two whole agency teams but such has been the challenge it's a national challenge in children's services uh rex and we're doing something similar and so those two teams are significantly more expensive than if we were recruiting directly it's time limited as i understand it but it's been required to get us over this hump whilst we do some work um behind the scenes but maybe um i don't know whether you've seen those reports so maybe we need to share those um picking up on the um attendance if i can your comment did make me smile chair because i think last year i tried to reduce it and committee suggested that would be remiss of me um and i agreed we should still strive to get that figure to be the lowest that it can um whether or not we are more realistic in the target we give to some of the areas that consistently over that then i think that's valid um obviously we've got four portfolios who were significantly better we've got some that are struggling and they are our client facing ones where and that's where the additional cost comes from let's be honest if i'm off sick or members of my team we seem to manage without backfill but in those frontline services such as streets in and social care we can't so you cover in the absence and you have to bring in an additional resource so maybe it's looking at different targets for those um those areas and that's something that i think they may actually welcome if we have that conversation um with them so i'm more than happy to take that forward okay i think that you know when we look at the the uh agency workers this is a you know it's regularly come to this committee over a period of time uh 4.4 4.44 million of that 5.3 is just between social services and street scene transportation and the social services part last year was 1.5 million and this year is 3.07 so really that should have that should have required the comments just because i look back at last year's reports just to compare to this year and that's what you find it needs a comment really and something which we haven't mentioned for an awful long time and sharon i know you were involved a long time ago appraisals there is never any mention any more of appraisals and i don't know where we are with that i'm sure that there there there is a figure but we should probably receive that as well as it's a statutory requirement isn't it bear with me um appraisal has that gone off appraisals as you'll recall we changed the methodology during um covid and changed the the approach and everything else with that we've also got our appraisal um well performance management as we call it is being reviewed again so that we can take a completely different approach how we'll report that will be interesting because it's akin to career conversations which is the more modern way of doing it so it's not a half year in it and a yearly discussion it's regular discussions as part of one-to-ones so once we've kind of finalized that and rolled it out we'll have to think which of those is documented to demonstrate that an appraisal took place which feels slightly artificial because we're trying to move away from the annual appraisal which is is an old-fashioned methodology cipd and other organizations advocate far more regular interventions so you're having real-time performance discussions if there are issues you can address them immediately if objectives are changing you can renegotiate them immediately and then it allows you to give real-time feedback but we can look at how we can incorporate some of that in a future report if that's of interest to committee absolutely okay thanks for that okay uh neil go ahead thank you chair um yeah the eight days um is is it realistic or not i think we need to keep it um as realistic as possible to be quite honest um i think there's there's a few things there aren't there you look at the age profile of the business it's it's um quite mature that does impact on uh another statistics that you've got got before you um we've also uh you know got a number of people that uh and share has touched on that hasn't she in in terms of uh are on uh long-term sickness for various reasons um so i i think there is a need to keep that uh from the center in terms of the monitoring against because it gives some clarity to services at least to uh to move in that direction the other thing um you touched on there was the 1.7 million versus five million i think you know let's be honest that was set a long time ago if you were going to index link it it would have moved up from there there still have been a differential but it would have moved up from that point so um you know it it's slightly less realistic in terms of a target um around there i don't know the origins and the background of the context in terms of how that was calculated but i'm quite interested to understand that that particular point um and then the point sharon raised is is also quite important around social services um and this is not unique to flintshire uh but social services have significant pressure points um our proximity to england does not assist social services in their uh effective individual recruitment of children's services social workers and adult services social workers for a start our paid uh model is uh somewhat detached from other areas and it's getting wider so that that um that opportunity for people to look into flintshire they might not they might like what they see but they don't like the salaries and that's another predetermined to why we've got a challenge in in some of the services that we uh that we've got in in a flinch but as i said some of that is not exclusively a flincher thing there is a major issue in terms of occupational therapists social workers those skill sets within within that environment so it is just sort of contextualize some of that and i i guess you know quite a lot of that already chair but i uh i it would be remiss of me not to say uh something in this meeting okay thanks thanks for that neil uh i don't see any other members with any hands up so the recommendation is for members to note and provide their comments on the year-end workforce information report and i think we've done that adequately um sharon has a couple of things to do um so i think i can ask for a move of the recommendation thanks council crease and a seconder please council marshall and then a show of hands please which appears fairly unanimous or the ones i can see thanks obviously yeah cheers that's unanimous so moving on um i think this is the last item if i'm not mistaken this is the last item so use of performance information service user perspective and outcomes um item 12 page 91 and i think this is um for dallas i think this is perhaps yours is it chair if i come in first um and then uh lisa brown bill who is uh the manager for the strategic performance advisor emma uh i think everybody probably knows her more as emma heath rather than by her job title lisa will cover that emma unfortunately can't be with us today um so uh chair this report another audit wales report again going through the the same sort of process as the earlier audit wales report it's coming to this committee for comment on the action plan before cabinet approved the action plan and it will go to governance and audit committee just for governance and audit committee to be satisfied that between them scrutiny and cabinet uh are making uh are actually appropriately dealing with the recommendations and are and are actioning it um so there's a couple of recommendations in the report which i'll leave lisa to go through unusually we have taken the step in in relation to the third recommendation of saying well actually um we think that's a step too far um and uh lisa will will will go through the reasons for that but we have to be we have to be cognizant don't we and this has been touched on earlier by members that sometimes recommendations may be a step too far within available resource for us and on this occasion that one is a step too far the suggestion that we might have some sort of independent verifying of data quality on some of the on the consultations that we undertake um is going to be very very difficult for the organization to manage um you wear a service such as social services or housing and take uh undertake the consultation with residents they will have their own steps to ensure the quality of that data and to make sure that people are responding to as a resident and so on and so forth but um the performance and risk team managed by lisa consists of two people um you as you might imagine they don't have the timing capacity as well as making sure that we get the reports we get risk reports we get performance reports and all the rest of it they don't have the time to be doing uh detailed data quality studies uh or restudies or re-examination of data quality uh in relation to consultations this had been undertaken by others um so um chair i'll hand over to lisa and of course um we do have the cabinet member in relation to this one uh in relation to this report is with us today so that members can ask questions in accordance with the rules that kensa hibbertson and i were discussing earlier um so i'll hand over to lisa if i might check thanks guys lisa go ahead thank you chair so yes there was three recommendations from the report that garith just introduced the first one being that we were to strengthen how um members and senior leaders understand how the service priority policies are meeting the needs of service users how we understand are we delivering our objectives and the intended outcomes and the lastly one about the quality of the data um so if i just take you through each three um so garith mentioned earlier on that there is a a link here between what we've already previously identified in our corporate self-assessment we've already identified that um a consultation is an area for development within the organization that is moving on quite quickly at the moment we're making large significant steps in that and we are working very closely with that service to bring to to realign these so um we are very fully aware that individual services may go out and speak to their individual service users but as a team we didn't we wouldn't have had that oversight which is what we were highlighting to audit wales so with the new consultation hub that's about to go live and other work streams we will have that oversight to bring that information in um the other one is in relation to um how we're meeting our objectives and intended outcomes well obviously we have the council plan um what we originally said was that the part two document once it had been finalized would have indicators on there that would consult with service users however we are about to launch um for the very first time a consultation on our council plan as a midge point review and that will take place around august september time so we felt it was more timely to incorporate that information and given that that's where we are now um and then lastly in terms of the quality of the data we highlighted um the individual services would be responsible for um obviously ensuring the quality of their data before they use that to inform decisions what we didn't have was the resources to verify that on their behalf independently and that's where we felt um we just couldn't accept that recommendation on that basis however with the consultations um that's an automated process we would be generating a report so there would be there would be that sort of data analysis in the background that we could have a look at if there was any consultation that we undertook um that is it briefly i am happy to take any questions if anybody has any just one further point if i might chair before you bring in counselors asking questions and all councils are under the local women and wales elections act where wales act 2021 under an obligation to consult members on how well we're doing um members of the public on how well we're doing and efficiency governance and the delivery of our services at recognizing that pan-wales statutory duty the welch local government association is reviving uh a national residence survey we used to undertake these um back in the day uh unfortunately um they said dr comery was was um was a was a bit of a casualty of austerity measures around about 2012-2014 and so had to stop doing the national survey um they are now proposing to resurrect that survey and that will include um certainly in its first iteration and this is because it is the first iteration it's fairly basic it will include within the first iteration um a series of questions about how well tenants residents to satisfy in relation to a list of a pre-populated list of services so housing social services you know highways and so on and so forth so we will have um as i said fairly basic but um standardized across wales uh questions for our residents about how we're doing on some of our key functions um and that will give well starters down the road um of giving members uh feedback from residents that we can include within reports um and that is something that i know the wlga have plans to develop in subsequent years of the survey they're uh they're taking it one step at a time if i if i might put it that way so i'm also chair happy to answer questions if there are okay thanks and remember that this item or a similar item came through the corporate self-assessment came to this committee this is the um i think it was march 2023 and then subsequent after that and there was there wasn't a lot of members that came to that meeting but i know council crease definitely council mulling was there councilor dave hughes was there myself i don't know of any other members that were at that meeting but there was a members workshop on the 5th of june which underpins some of this 5th of june 2023 um in relation to the corporate self-assessment which is referred to within this lisa you wanted to come in to make a comment sorry chair i was just going to say we're actually that stage again now so on the 15th of july we'll be having our on our next um self-assessment workshop with members so if any members would like to attend that workshop please let me know um invites have gone out or they should have gone out um but yeah yeah there is another workshop in relation to the self-assessment i think um to a personal level i don't know if councilor crease remembers it but it was a really interesting workshop to be honest um where you know it's something where you could really make a difference and you could put your points forward it wasn't just it wasn't just members and officers i don't think i think there was other there was other people there well if it was officers they were from different parts of the local authority which was really interesting um but at that time a comment that was made and i'm sure that the chief executive is going to remember this rebecca jones who said uh this is in relation to it was g29 which was one of the ones that lisa will recognize the number we didn't have a corporate strategy for engagement with the general public uh there was no policy no plan um i'm just wondering whether that's been rectified because i don't know i've never seen anything since then so it's a year ago almost um there was very little to back up the questions that have been asked and perhaps they've been asked because it was going to inform this audit this audit report um but yeah i'd be interested to know whether there is a strategy in place and whether there is an action plan now in place which it infers on recommendation one yeah i can answer that for you if you like it so um the first stage was to actually get somebody um in position because at that point in time we didn't even have a an engagement officer that took quite some time to a point so that delayed the um the the development of the strategy i don't believe it's actually finalized yet gareth is it the strategy i know haley's working on it um but in the meantime the consultation hub has been is being developed alongside that so this is correct chair um at the point where you were having those workshops last year uh the comms team was sadly very depleted uh members will be aware and will become a that haley malin and amy jones have been appointed to the comms team um haley um is developing uh our engagement and consultation tools and strategies so the engagement hub is due to go live at the beginning of next month uh been postponed thanks to the general election and we the engagement strategy is due to come to cabinet uh either at the next meeting or the september meeting and we would be expecting it therefore to be coming through corporate resources over the scrutiny committee and pre-scrutiny in the way that we normally do and haley took the step as members will be aware the first thing she did was got a got the corporate facebook page established um and we want she wanted that because that was a clear gap and a clear step that we needed to take uh so she got that up and running so that we could start engaging with members whilst working on the strategy um in the longer term um but that will be as i said coming to members uh either in this coming cycle or the cycle thereafter for comment and adoption okay just to reiterate what lisa said about engagement with members when this when the corporate self-assessment is up again as a workshop i would advise especially members of this committee because there's there's so much that you can there's so much to say on that and and to if you like describe what will happen over the next 12 months and to make sure that we're actually you know changing things which are really important so i would advise after then i'd advise that most other members of this committee actually you know pitch up to that to that um workshop too council libberton um thank you chair um let me start again by asking the cabinet member um under whose name this report the report to this committee is um tabled um the cabinet member for corporate services um has she read the audit wales investigation into the council that's referred to in the report unfortunately uh councilor no i haven't however i do feel that lisa's given a full um pricey of the report and recommendations um very well let me read out some um sections from that uh audit wales report um it says limited performance information is provided to senior leaders that is cabinet uh to enable them to understand the service user that is residents perspective and the outcomes of the council activities it says the council does not include information about the perspective of service users within performance information provided to senior leaders as a matter of course it says that the information provided to senior leaders is mainly focused on activities rather than outcomes and that's it this impacts this limits senior leaders ability to understand the impact of the council's activities and whether it's meeting its objectives um it says that the council has limited arrangements to ensure that the data on residents views is um provided to cabinet is accurate um this is pretty damning stuff isn't it it's saying that cabinet isn't taking and isn't in a position to take adequate account of residents views would you agree that's pretty damning um no i don't think i would i don't think i would agree with it that it's pretty damning no i wouldn't okay so would you say that the way in which the cabinet takes account of residents perspectives and views at the moment is adequate i think the cabinet do um do their job adequately in this respect yes i do so you disagree with audit wales who don't feel that it's up to standard and have tabled recommendations as a result you you you disagree with audit wales's perspective is that right i think we can have a look at this in more depth and reconsider the recommendations yes but that would be the same for for any report that's come through audit wales uh i think uh council thomas if you read at the bottom of page 114 i think what what alice is driving that and pardon me uh alistair if you read point 22 as a result of what alice has just said the actual conclusion is there is a risk that the council may take decisions and actions and allocate resources based on inaccurate information i think that's the point there so what what audit wales is saying is that because we don't ask people adequately and ask them the right questions that you are getting reports that actually may lead you not to make the right decision that that's a conclusion of the audit report i think that's what alice is that you're getting that alice is that right yes i mean if i could um just continue to quote the audit wales report um it says um the council's cabinet and scrutiny report templates have a section titled consultation required carried out but apart from one instance this is just used to note consultation rather than provide information to help senior leaders understand what this tells them about the perspective of service users that's one example in a year i mean to my mind that that is pretty inadequate that is the cabinet not taking into account um the views of residents that's that's what audit wales has found would you like to take this opportunity to apologize on behalf of uh cabinet to residents of flintshire for that failure um all i can say on this council riberson is that your comments are all noted and they are valid and i will take this forward um but you you won't apologize on behalf of cabinets for the cabinet for the failures that audit wales has identified no not at the moment no no thank you very much we thank you guys we've seen council parkhurst yeah sorry chair yeah thank you very much for the opportunity to speak again um one of the things which concerns me here is that we've got a very uh thorough uh audit wales report and um this council works to a three lines and lines of defense model in terms of risk management so this is actually sort of third you know third level of um the defense um we don't have a mechanism apparently for checking the quality and accuracy of data so that indicates there's a failure of control at the lower levels and we've seen this with other financial controls where there has not been the level of check required to pick up things which are going wrong until the third line of defense whether it's internal audit or whether it's audit wales pick these things up so things can be going wrong for years until there's a thorough audit and that really concerns me and i think it's i think it should concern others and what it points to is a need for control testing at a lower level to pick up things regularly before they become a big issue okay thanks council parker council madison first and governor crease thank you very much chair uh can i just say at this point because we're going around in circles we have got some recommendations yes information can always be improved i'm a reference librarian a retired reference librarian we know things can always be improved so can we just actually move forward on the recommendations thank you council crease thank you chair uh i have broad concerns about the recommendations in the respect of are we seeing at a rod at will saying that officers have not provided the data to cabinet or cabinet have not requested data to inform the decisions either instance troubles me greatly if we're running an organization and taking decisions at the very highest level where we don't have data to support those decisions that concerns me greatly i believe that is what audit whales are saying that they can't see that information is being provided that appears to be what they're saying um the third point i think or the third the third point is where they're asking us to to verify that information and we're saying that's an onerous exercise to do that but we feel that oh sorry the officers feel that they are it is it is a it is correct information so there's two different things one is the validity of that information one is whether it's been supplied um i have great concerns to be honest if the information being provided to cabinet members is not adequate enough to be able to make the right decision because that's what they've said the bottom page 114.22 as a result there is a risk the council may take decisions and actions and allocate resources based on inaccurate information that is a conclusion which needs to be honest um to be and gina i i take your point but i think these are important points to make we we have to we have to scrutinize the the recommendations that have been put back toward it wales and that's what we're doing at the moment so um councillor johnson you want to come in you're on mute councillor johnson that's a problem chair sometimes you click on the button with your on the mouse pad and sometimes it's the mouse use itself yeah i i think i mean read the report and going through that i mean there's always room for improvement in anything you go and do if audio wales gave you a muscle issue a little health on something then i think well anyway i think what has what has come out of discussion from the report is things have been identified uh i think as going through the discussion it's been said that things like consultation hubs and things are in process are being taken forward there is a very clear action plan which is uh she's part of the report which has come through which have no issues with whatsoever uh this is about service user perspective so i think so i think it's important just to kind of emphasize that side that part of it as a very general point i i think that's uh one of the things that does make for a good council i know it certainly happens but in many councils across the uk and across europe and i think we're definitely catching up with them there is that sense that consultations are very key is very key part in any decisions that are made so i mean i i welcome what the report is there it's not something that's being said oh we're not going to do anything about it it's being brushed in the table there's issues which will be which have been taken forward in the past which are being taken forward in the past and will be taken forward in the future so i'll leave it there thank you chair uh well can i ask you to make a comment on it's page 115 uh item it's item 26 because i one of the things that i find really concerning is that we are not sure that we're providing value for money so what audit wales is saying is at the very bottom of that it's an important round of arrangements to secure value for money so what they're saying is is that because we don't obtain that feedback correctly we can't confirm that we're actually getting value for money for the services we provide do you i mean is that something you i think you should make a comment on that to me i will i'm more than happy to go and do that i mean it's i mean for all the things i think uh if there's a question about whether we are providing value for money then then we need to be able to show that uh i think we put it we will have means of we do have means of doing that and it was an issue that this uh committee would want to explore further i think that's something they should that we put in the forward work program about how that is that is done i think the actual thing about is it value for money when you look at the the vast range of council services and you're saying well is this value for money or is that value for money uh the actual thing when you come down to actually saying um but i shouldn't be reading the phrase here but so often uh is is it short term long term it may be that when we're part of the when we're looking at the transformation and the transformation program that we actually go back and really start to consider what actually is defined by that kind of that value for money as we're going through this but it must concern you then well that you value for money both money richard always concerns me it always concerns me we get from services you know you can turn around for example we mentioned social social uh social value for example that's completely outstrips the value for money say of the cost we actually go and put into that uh i think value for money is at the core of what we go and do as a council but i think you have to be careful in terms of what how you would go and define that is it's is that value for money basically the cheapest option you can go and get is it one which is a more expensive one uh but for which you get better outcomes yeah i think there's a whole range of very very wide things and i think as a council if it doesn't concern us then uh well it should it has to concern us that's what uh in the past national governments have been very clear about defining what value for money actually goes and means yeah i think the concerning thing for a lot of members and i know it will be it is for me is that it's took an order report audit wales report to identify it and it hasn't been identified right at this time so you know anyway gareth you're next good point thank you chair my hesitate chair to correct you but i have to say as it says in the report uh and we're very clear about this in the report your last statement about the fact that it took an audit wales report to identify this is incorrect okay if i might yeah it's in the report that we had identified this through the corporate self-assessment and you yourself would correctly refer to the fact that we had identified this in our self-assessment so um if i could you know i'll leave it there if i might that we had identified this ourselves um service user perspective comes in a range of different ways and at different times doesn't share um we can do pre-consultation with service users we're proposing to do this what do you think how do you think that would work um it can come in the moment so we can have um and we do in some areas you we can have immediate feedback on services um if you go into the connect center for example you will see that there is a column on the way out that you can press on your way out with three faces you know happy neutral sad face so there is some there is some feedback there directly to us and then you can have post event consultation either in the form of complaints or in the form of the resident survey to which i referred when presenting the item how did we do time questionnaire for members you'll have heard that we're in that we don't have that sort of general how did we do questionnaire and that we are we have plans to introduce one via wlga some services chair are better at doing the pre-consultation and the in the moment consultation with services social services and housing for example two areas where we know they're very good at consultation you we have a tenant engagement officer that probably should be a contract holder engagement officer now but we have a tenant engagement officer where and you know we annually do surveys with our residents and with our householders uh in in the hra and social services are very good at doing the user consultations and service user consultations and gaining feedback in relation to the services that we that we provide those are those are limited scope i think other services could do things to that degree and that's i think is what we'd recognize in our corporate self-assessment that there are pockets of good performance within the organization but actually we need to see that on a more widespread basis across the organization and indeed there are some areas as i referred to consultation on a budget as something that we don't currently undertake which logically we know when we've identified ourselves is something that we can do to take forward um so there are proposals for where we can improve and i would just comment and this might be something that lisa was going to pick up one of the things about audit wales and i don't want to make i don't want to make too much of a point in relation to this but one of the things we did advise board of wales to talk to social services and housing about the consultation that they undertook and how that then feeds into their service planning audit wales wouldn't audit wale said no we're talking to you you're the performance team you answer our questions and we weren't able to supply them with the data so when they turn around and say there's no data that's because we weren't able to supply it to them because um lisa's team are not the specialists in that area so there are there are some limitations there as well that i think like i said don't make too much of it but perhaps you need to be recognized also okay thanks gareth lisa thank you chair yes gareth i was going to touch on that as well because i think this needs to be some context to the report as well um so as gareth mentioned you know the areas that do the consultation are outside of the performance and risk management team and we did share that with with audit wales however that wasn't looked at apart from the committee reports and what went to actual committee nothing in the background to support those consultations or the accuracy of that data so there's no suggestion that the data was inaccurate it's just that they didn't look at the accuracy of the data and the fact that we didn't either um one of the things that bothered us was was the report naturally um we spoke across the whole of our network and every other local authority had a very similar report almost identical report across the whole of wales which also concerned us we raised this with audit wales and asked well if that's the case could you please explain what best plastics best practice looks like um that hasn't been possible they've not been able to deliver us that from wales they did reach out to the england network and unfortunately audit wales haven't been able to get that information from england either so whilst we are working very hard to you know to resolve these issues um then i just wanted to give you some context of where where we sit in in as you know across wales as a wider picture um garris already mentioned that we had already looked at what we wanted to identify um you know self-assessment you know our self-assessment has already identified the consultation so there are things that we we definitely know that we need to do um we're not saying that the the information that you get is inaccurate um however data-led decisions is always the best way so maybe it's it's it's potentially the report writing and how we provide information to members that we could perhaps improve on in a later date going forward okay thanks there's a council crease thanks yeah uh it still concerns me that we're tiptoeing around this thing about its service users uh opinion of value for money as an elected member i get uh uh the the people in my ward get to voice an opinion on my effect efficacy uh on my value for money once every five years i don't think that's often enough but that's the way the system works uh we have to get into our heads i believe that we are all members and officers here to deliver for our service users and until we accept that that drives what we do uh we're always going to have this situation where there's a differential between what we see as value for money and what service users see as value for money yeah i think that's entirely true it's a good point um and just going back to what i said before thanks council crease so you know if it's not for me to say but if cabinet members appreciate now the kind of level of scrutiny that's going to come out of this committee um especially in this item there's a service user perspective and outcomes which is really really important is actually the is the point where the service user interacts with the council and asked as an opportunity to make a comment then i would advise that all cabinet members attend this it's not for me to say obviously but it would probably be very useful to attend that corporate self-assessment even july that lisa has mentioned because that's your point of being able to make changes um so i'll leave there um the recommendation on page 91 was that the committee considered the response the recommendation for improvement we've actually considered the responses that have been put forward but we've made further comments i think to cabinet members who perhaps uh is probably more important for us i suppose so can i have a mover please for that recommendation and if i don't see one i'll move it myself council crease has moved it i'll share chair sorry sorry to interrupt before you move that i mean the committee obviously has very strong views um in order that those views are represented perhaps the committee could reframe those recommendations in terms of what it would like to see um in terms of reporting to members about customer service user perspectives um and either as an additional recommendation say that you know in i'm extemporizing here chair in in relation to key policy or service decisions uh that uh reports to members include uh service user perspectives uh on the proposal not just service on the current levels of service being provided i think it's the outcome isn't it their perspective of the outcome of what happens because that's what people are commenting i'm just imagining i've got you're probably right we should put something in i mean i've got several people at the moment who are coming to me about housing repairs and saying that they they don't think that they were to the right standard that's an outcome that we should get back we should get back some response from that from from those so you know it's i think yeah that's probably a good comment gareth and i appreciate it and so it's an opportunity isn't it chair to define what you would regard as a good standard and then a cabinet can take that into account when they're making their decision about whether the recommendations that have been put forward by officers will get us to that standard so if you define it you know we're not talking about perfect world are we chair because um we know we don't live in a perfect world but we're talking about well what what do you as members think really realistically we should be taking into account um as senior officers as members committees when judging changes to service i mean just my view i think changes to service you should be asking the service user that has just interacted with the council of their perspective of any outcome that they've been involved in so i think that's the that's the question isn't it um that's the question at the end of a service provision we should be asking we should be asking the not every time but we should probably do it regularly to make sure we're actually doing the right thing for the for the residents so yeah i think it's been captured by steve so the second recommendation steve you want to quickly read that out hopefully i captured this correctly so in relation to key policy and service decisions that reports include service user perspective of the outcomes currently being delivered that sounds fair enough and and any proposed changes so pre-consultation is i don't know whether it's a suggestion chair it's obviously it's not for me uh but it's a suggestion because that kind of encompasses and picks up i think yeah no um that's fine if it makes us if it makes the situation better than we appreciate it so council crease you move to the recommendation would you be happy to accept that second recommendation as read you would okay and um i'll second that uh if i may and then let's move to councilman you've got your hand up so just want any comments um i would suggest that the um committee ask cabinet to consider whether the council wishes to conduct its own annual survey as to the performance of the council and particular areas possibly around um april time in uh subsequent years um so as to enable um an invitation to complete it to go out with council tax bills um at the moment obviously and chief officer governance has rightly made reference to um general surveys conducted by other bodies and specific ones um conducted um after service users have engaged with the service but for some services um residents don't necessarily interact with council staff when using them there are limited opportunities to provide that feedback and a general catch-all annual survey on the council's performance might be something the cabinet wishes to consider lisa is that something we can do without being too heavy on resources is that something we can do i'll have to speak with the um communications team which is um becky and haley's team so i will liaise with them because whilst we'll capture the information and feed it into the council plan it will be a different team that will lead on that consultation so together we'll work on it join me okay so i'm happy with that council but soon if council crease you happy with that to include that one yeah for the cabinet to consider and um yep that's been captured also so steve's got that as well so there's three recommendations one of which has been written you've heard that other one and the third one is that the cabinet considers an annual survey um can you just annual survey by service users to be fed back at the same time as council tax in april okay all right excellent so not only we looked at the report but we've actually given back some suggestions of how to improve what we do so that's that's really good so okay thank you members a quick show of hands on that then it's been moved and seconded a show of hands from our members comes limits and they see all members saying yes me included thank you members and that is the end of the report i guess thank you for attending it's been really good and uh hopefully next time a bit more well scratch you know in our meetings