Transcript

Hello, hi everyone, thank you for bearing with us as we shuffle around rooms. So yes, as you can see, there's two meetings going on today and so we've had to move around a bit. My name's Izzy, I'm the Chair of the Inclusive Economy and Culture Screening Panel and I'm a Councillor in Plumstead Common. So first we're just going to do apologies for absence, so we have a few today. First we've got Councillor Thomas, Councillor Davis, Councillor Hannan and who else was it? That's it, everyone? And then, we are expecting two more councillors, but apparently there's a lot of issues with the buses, so they should hopefully rush in any minute and join us. So we'll just keep going with the agenda because I know we've got lots of guests with us today, so we don't want to keep you longer than we need to. Right, so I've had no requests for urgent business, I don't know if there's any other urgent business. No, nothing. Any declarations of interest from anyone? No? Okay, I'll check that again once the other councillors are in the thing. Right, so we'll go straight on to the first item on the agenda then, which is looking at the small and medium-sized arts and cultural organisations. And so the reason for this item is we had some of our larger cultural organisations come to a panel a couple of months ago and we felt it was quite important to hear from some of our smaller organisations, who obviously have such an important role in the rural borough of Greenwich. So the main reason for this item is to assess the environment in Greenwich for small and medium-sized arts and cultural organisations and make recommendations to the executive about how we can support those organisations more. And we're delighted to welcome representatives from those organisations. Your presence here is incredibly valuable, so thank you very much for taking out one of your evenings to be here. Because you really do bring unique insights into the environment your organisations are currently navigating and I think we all know it is difficult out there for cultural organisations at the moment. So I'd like you all to come up and take a couple of minutes to just say a little bit about the organisations and just share your perspective. I know we asked some questions ahead of this meeting, so feel free to go into more detail about some of those questions we answered. So I guess I'll invite Bradley, are you happy to start off? Yes, if you just press the button and then you will, I should have said at the beginning, we are recording, so just be aware of that. Everything gets live-streamed onto the Greenwich website and YouTube, so please do turn your microphone off when you're speaking and then on when you need to. So is that, are that working? Yes, yes. Well, thank you. I'm really delighted to have been invited to speak today. And I represent Greenwich and Docklands Festivals, which is an organisation that owes its existence to the Royal Borough of Greenwich. I, with Councillor Bob Harris, who was the then Chair of Leisure Services Committee back in the day, back in the 90s, established Greenwich and Docklands Festivals from what was the Council's own Greenwich Festival. It was sat within the Council. And at that time in the 90s, there was lots of pressure, as there is today, on local authorities. And it was important for the Council to divest itself of services that it had traditionally provided directly. So it was a long preamble, but in those days the Council put half a million into the festival that it ran internally and translated that into a grant of $50,000 to take it outside. So the story of the last 30 years has been that the Council being the pivot at the heart of a whole set of relationships and partnerships, which our organisation builds to turn around a festival every year, which we are enormously proud of. This will be the 30th year. It couldn't happen without the Royal Borough of Greenwich and wouldn't have happened over all those years. But what it, given the times we're in, will depend on more and more and more, is the partnership support, which underlines everything that Greenwich helps unlock. So to give a sense of the scale of all of this, Greenwich delivers through Royal Greenwich Festivals every year, something like $55,000, $60,000 a year. And that translates into a festival that costs something like £600,000 or £700,000. So that's the money that we're charged with finding. And I guess, I think if the focus of this is asking how can the local authority help more, I think it's, you know, of course everybody's going to say we want more money. And we know that's not there. But what is great is the fact that, you know, we've got people in the room here who are deeply engaged in what's happening, what changes are happening, which have happened, you know, exponentially over the last 30 years. So it's being, you know, at the fulcrum of what's happening in terms of regeneration and change, what's happening in the business community here that's enormously helpful for us. So if we, you know, for example, look at Woolwich that's taking shape with all these new public spaces, Leisure Centre and everything else, if there are opportunities there for us to have conversations, to develop new relationships, that's enormously helpful. And that information, that communication is the transformational gold that will make the festival survive for another 30 years. Because, of course, when things change and there's more money, we, of course, public subsidy is really, really important. I don't want to say that we can do it all without. We do need that. It's really important. There's less every year. But, you know, I'm realistic enough to know that I'm not here to sit today and say we need more because I know it's not there. But, yeah, you'll hear from other people as well. There's a lot of pain and a lot of need there. But we have to try and use that carrot, that kind of, you know, that challenge that comes from the local authority investment, which is important. You know, we need to have that there to translate that into wider partnership support. And then on the other side, sorry, I'm talking for too long. You've got to stop me when I'm talking. The value of all of this is what we should, none of us, forget. I mean, over those 30 years, millions of people have experienced these events. And they're transformational in terms of the way in which people feel and think about the spaces they're in, the people they enjoy these events with. They're all about the joy. Last summer, you know, we know that in July a whole range of despicable far-right riots happened across the country. And our festival took place barely a month after all that happened. We were doing a project down in Deptford with a whole range of sanctuary-seeking communities. You know, it was a job to encourage people who were working on that project to feel that it was safe to come back and be part of a project in a public space. Public space is so important. And that's why what's happened in Woolwich is so brilliant. You know, that change of the space, you know, is for everybody. And I think, you know, what we try to do is bring people together in ways that they, you know, have the right to be together in public space in a spirit of joy. I don't know, a bit inarticulate, but I'm really very passionate about this. Otherwise, I wouldn't have lasted 30 years. So thank you for the opportunity to say those words. Thank you very much. And I really appreciate you taking the time. And it's great to hear that you have had such a great relationship with the council over so long. So I really appreciate it. Just while we've had some extra councillors come in, I'll just introduce Councillor Smith and Councillor Littlewood. I just wanted to take a moment to see if you had any declarations of interest, considering we are speaking to lots of organisations that some are councillors associated to. No interest over there? Okay, perfect. All right. Thank you very much. So I'll hand over to Maureen. Hello. That's better. Hello, everyone. I'm Maureen Sutton, and I run a ballet company called the Let's All Dance Ballet Company. There's a few familiar faces, but I don't think I've worked with anyone here. We are a professional ballet company, but we run shows for family audiences. Everything we do is for young people and children and family audiences. We've been completely self-sufficient for 12 years and turning a profit for 12 years. And apart from COVID, we've never lost any money apart from this season, which has just opened Saturday. Some venues are sold out, some venues are sold out, and some are, I've never seen such poor sales in my life. But it's really, it's really, really scary. There is probably many, many reasons, income, tax rises, all sorts of things going on. But we've just got to the stage where I'm thinking, right, Christmas, I can turn a profit, but the rest of the year, I have no idea anymore. It's just super scary. We have literally just finished a little schools project. So February this year was the first time we received some funding from Greenwich. And it enabled us to take our little show called The Ugly Duckling into schools. And it's based on self-acceptance, bullying, valuing other people, family love, all those important messages for young people. Taking the original story, but tried to make it into a very modern version that young people can appreciate. And so Greenwich Council thought it was a good idea for us to take into schools with that message. And we did some workshops after each show as well. It was three schools, Plumstead, Charlton, and Elton. And it went down extremely well. So all the teachers and children have given feedback. And there's a kind of weird feeling in me that if I can't be self-sustaining, maybe I should just stop and do something else. And then everyone else tells me, no, your work is incredibly valuable and you should keep going. And when we go to schools, that is reinforced. We don't want the only people who can see our shows to be rich, white, middle class. That's not what we're about. And because we're ballet, sometimes that's the image of what we do. So when we go to Arts Council, we just don't get any funding. Ballet doesn't seem to get any funding. Or maybe I'm writing my proposals wrongly. Or maybe there's just too much competition. I don't know what it is. But we've never been successful with larger funding bodies. With Greenwich, it was a very small amount they gave us. But it was incredibly helpful. And it meant that we could take our work to children who never normally see, let alone ballet, but they never see any kind of live art. There was one school we went to, the one in Charlton. And the teacher said, they have never seen anything like this. The reaction is going to be extremely strong. That was an understatement. They were going wild. But wild in a good way. Wild in a really positive, life-affirming way. And it was beautiful. It was joyous. So I have got this tricky balance now. I want to make sure that we pay our artists fairly. Everyone's struggling with the cost of living after a long time of struggling. But I also need to keep the company going and make sure we balance the books. And as I say, Christmas at the moment is the only time we can be assured that we will make a profit that can plough into the following year. So, yeah, it's tough. So I'm really grateful to be here. Really, really grateful. In fact, it's the only day I had off from doing shows over the whole Easter holiday. So it worked perfectly. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for sharing your experience. I think the reason we suggested this item is because we know how valuable some of the work that you all do. And so I'm glad that you've heard that from others, just how transformation in all your work is. So before I go to myself, I'll hand over to the panel. Is there any questions that you've got for our guests? Obviously, just in case you've got anything you want to know about. Yeah? Yeah? Go on. Well, just a kind of general, it might even be more one for the offices more. But I was just thinking about, based on what Aureet was saying about when you're applying to the Arts Council, things for funding. I don't know if you have access to, I don't know if this is just something we do when we're doing our own VCS fundraising, but I believe we had bid writing support. Is that something that these organisations have access to? And would it be something that would be beneficial or could the access be widened if it's not something that's currently available? I haven't heard of that support and it would be very valuable. I've heard of lots of that support available, but you have to pay for it. And I should have actually also said that we're looking at becoming a KIC so that we can actually attract more funding. I'm sure you all know it's kind of between a charity and a professional organisation. So then I can't go down the charity route for loads of reasons, but the KIC, I think, would help. And that might be something that maybe is part of that bid writing facility. So that would be really interesting if we could have access to that. First of all, sorry, you haven't heard about that. To give you some context, the team have been forced to firefight many of the situations that you've been dealing with, helping local organisations survive, which is not what we want, not a position we want to be in. But that position has been well documented. There are a number of ways we can help you. And certainly now I've made contact with you, I know you've probably met some of my colleagues to my left. Melanie and Anne will certainly pick this up with you. We have access to something called Grant Finder, which is a free access on our website, which will enable you to type in various keywords to look at what funding is available across the country, not just from us. Melanie is our very hands-on deputy culture manager, who will be able to talk to you in more detail about how we can help. But we do over the next year, because of the culture strategy that we got agreed with organisations like yourselves, we want to move away from a position of having to firefight to actually supporting and developing. If I can, Chair, just pass to Anne, who is our Interim Head of Culture and also sits on the London Arts Council body that agrees funding. You may have some helpful tips. I mean, I think in terms of the Arts Council funding, it's incredibly competitive, as you know. It is worth talking to the Arts Council Relationship Manager for the area. I can put you in touch with him if you just drop me a line and I can introduce you to him. Thank you, that'd be great. They're super helpful in terms of mentoring through that sort of initial bidding process. Okay, that'd be great. And they have small funds and they have larger scale funds. We're not looking very much. You know, each project can be quite small, but kind of knowing what people are looking for, so I can tailor it. That's what I did with Greenwich. They said, we don't have arts provision in these schools who can provide for these schools. And we tailored our office for those particular schools. So we're very flexible. Yeah, so I think that the Relationship Manager, the relationship, is the key. Perfect. Thank you. Hello. Hi, yeah, just to add, Michelle Rankin, Assistant Director, Economy and Skills. I think, as well, you mentioned KICS, which is a community interest company. And just to highlight that we have a number of sort of business support programs, including one that's delivered by an organization called CNT. And that's specifically around supporting cooperatives, community interest companies, social enterprises. In fact, the council recently launched our cooperative commission. And one of the strands is about how do we double the size of cooperative organizers or community business organizations. So I think I'm happy to make a referral. There's also a small grants fund that is part of that program. And I think the other thing, just to mention, there'll be a future, potentially a future round of something called Greenwich Neighbourhood Growth Funding, GNGF. Again, there's opportunity to put forward projects that could be, you know, could, again, receive some funding. So I'm happy to follow up on that as well. Fantastic. Thank you so much. Yeah. That just, it feels like this is the, at least the basis of a recommendation to me, Chair. And it might be essentially kind of what Michelle was saying. And I don't know if anyone wants to, is able to clarify it further into, because I'm not quite sure exactly what the recommendation is yet. But about making sure that, because obviously you guys are now, yeah, people can go ahead and say, you know, you guys are now here and you've heard these things. But there must be however many other organizations in the borough that aren't aware of these things. So to me, the recommendation feels it should be around ensuring that everyone is aware of and has access to those things. And probably that starts with the council taking a proactive approach to ensure that we're reaching out to people. I mean, the schemes you were talking about sound like it's, that's kind of what that is, you know. So, yeah, I don't know if anyone else wants to jump in and kind of, or maybe we can mull it over, you know, over the course of the item. No, absolutely. I completely agree. It seems like an easy recommendation to be making sure that the organizations that were at least invited here today, but, and any others that maybe we missed know exactly what is available in the council. Because we always do lots of things and sometimes we aren't good enough at shouting about some of the things on offer. So, definitely do that. And I can see we've had some other organizations join us now. So, I'll just welcome everybody. So, my name's Izzy. I'm the chair of the Inclusive Economy and Culture Scrutiny Panel. And so, we've just invited kind of small and medium-sized arts organizations here today to hear about your experiences kind of navigating the world at the moment and your experiences working in Greenwich. So, if you, I know you've all just come in. If someone would, if you wouldn't mind kind of giving two minutes just to really say a little bit about, yeah, your experience in Greenwich and really how we might be able to do more to support you. So, if you don't mind going first, Helen, because I'm looking at you. I warn you, it is being live recorded. Okay, that's absolutely fine. I'll try not to grimace. Hello, my name is Helen Sorrell. I've lived in Greenwich for about 20 years. And about six months ago, I applied for a small grant from Greenwich Council Arts and Culture Fund and Community Fund to run a community bread-making project. I was awarded the money, £2,500. And in February and March, I ran three sessions. The idea of the project was to primarily to bring people together in a relaxed and friendly environment, people who wouldn't ordinarily be in the room together, to celebrate the incredible heritage of our borough by, we had six different bakers. So, at every session, we had two different breads from around the world taught by people, some professional bakers and some home bakers. So, in exchange of skills, in exchange of culture, an opportunity, I encouraged the bakers, and they all did, to talk about the history of their bread, the role of their bread in their lives. And then everyone made the bread. So, they were incredibly busy afternoons. The sessions took place at a Methodist church in Charlton called Sunfields, which is a really nice, bright, modern place where I have a family connection, but it's a nice, accessible venue. I was really blessed in that everybody came. So, when you're doing free events, one of the stipulations of the grant was that the events needed to be free. And it's quite difficult to nail people down, you know. But I have a system of – I've done this sort of thing before for work, but never sort of off my own bat, really. So, I have a system of engaging with people and then checking in with them and, you know, building relationships before events so that when people walk into the room, I know who they are. We had 12 people come to each session, and they were all distinct individuals apart from one young man who I let come twice for various reasons. But we also had all the volunteer bakers, all the bakers, some of whom were volunteers and some of whom were paid, as well as a team of local volunteers supporting the project. And in addition to the project, I think one of the things that's interesting and probably relevant for you guys is it was a small grant, £2,500, which sounds quite a lot maybe to run three sessions, but, boy, it was an enormous amount of work. I have a professional background as a broadcast journalist, and then more recently I've been working in essentially in community-type roles in local authorities. And my standards are quite high, which means I was able, because I had the time to put in quite a lot of effort, to produce something really, you know, top-notch. You know, our feedback was extraordinary, really, and people really enjoyed themselves and met lots of different people. We had a fantastic mix of people come to the events. I've been crunching numbers, but, yeah, it's alongside white British people. We had people of white Irish heritage. We had people from various different black backgrounds, including black British Caribbean and black African. We had about, I think, about a dozen people of Asian origin, including people from China, people from Japan, people from India, people from places like Turkey and Morocco. We had some young people who weren't in employment or training at the time of the sessions. We had about 10 of the attendees out of about 35, 36 people were people with sort of long-term health conditions. It's a really, really proper South London mix of different kinds of people, not just women, a nice mix of men, particularly as the publicity picked up as well. We picked up some more men and word of mouth, which was really nice. The reason it was arts and culture funding, I think, was this that I went for was because I wanted to really emphasize this, sort of the significance of culture and cultural understanding and cultural exchange. Obviously, cooking is something, and bread is something which many people share in around the world and feel a lot about. And it seemed to really, I did it a one-off when I was working in Redbridge and it worked so brilliantly, I knew it was a great idea. And it's something that people can really come together on. In terms of, so it's my first foray as an independent person working in Greenwich. I've previously done some work with the arts and culture people down in Thamesmead, Peabody. So I sort of have, and from my work at Redbridge Council for two years recently, I have sort of understanding of how kind of public funding and stuff like that works. But I think what would make it easier for me to do more of this stuff is a lighter touch to the kind of, maybe the paperwork and application side. I was made redundant in the autumn, essentially, and I was on the payroll for a while. And that gave me the opportunity to complete a massive application form for £2,500. And I have a lot of professional experience, which also helped me. Then I had to create four policies, you know, a diversity policy, or this policy, or that policy, which I spent a day angsting over until someone just said, oh, just chat GPT it. Which is not really the point, is it? You don't just want something that's just of chat GPT, but essentially the project didn't pay me. I was able to do the project and volunteer my work in kind. And obviously now I have some equipment and I have the knowledge of how maybe I can streamline things and will look to do other funding. These things are expensive, you know, if you're looking at sort of price per head per activity. But I think that the possibility of growing a network out of an activity like this, where you genuinely getting people, I split people up if they came in groups so that they were talking with people they hadn't met before. Everybody spoke to at least two other people. Many, many, you know, spoke to more people. A great sense of kind of cultural understanding and kind of exchange. This is kind of a real possibility. So it's, yeah, in a way, there are lots of people who live in this, who work in this kind of quasi world of kind of, yeah, we're not really working for very much money or we're working for the minimum wage. And we're okay to do that. But please then don't give me, don't ask for so much kind of heavy paperwork. And I don't know whether there are opportunities for things like, you know, cheap insurance through the council or something like that. Or, you know, sort of quick wins that would just be like, you know, what would make, you know, how could we make this much cheaper? Or making council venues very cheap, stuff like that. Anyway, I've gone far longer than two minutes. I'm so sorry. No, no worries at all. Thank you very much. And thank you for some helpful suggestions there. So we'll definitely come back to some of those points at the end. Esther, are you happy to go next? So just a couple of minutes on your organisation and kind of support you've received from the council and what more we could do. Okay. We're from the, I'm from the Jovencloca Foundation. And yes, we have gained a lot or the community has gained from the arts and culture department. We have applied for funding. And yes, it is, it takes a lot to do it. And because we haven't got the manpower, we haven't got, you know, so it's a lot of work and we really work. I don't know what to say. We prefer working and youth singing instead of writing. Some people are good at writing and talking, but we really work and do the, you know, get the hard evidence. And the evidence is from the outcomes from the children, young people and their families. So it's the smiles on their faces. It's them wanting to go on to do more, you know, getting a beat of what we do and wanting more, asking for more. And it's, you know, it's all the general benefits you get from that, you know, the health and well-being, making friends and all of that. But it's just, for me, it's sort of a bit sad that you have small organizations who really do always have to compete with these big organizations who get paid fundraisers or fund, you know, and we sit there and, you know, trying to run the organization, trying to compete with these big organizations and then just really delivering the work to the local community. Thank you very much. It's really helpful, Esther. And if anyone wants to chip in at any other point, just let us know. And then we'll, Galmire, are you happy to go next? Good. Just a couple of minutes about your organization and any support you've had from the council. Hello. Okay. I run this organization three years ago to bring the mummies and children together because we, our children used to go to the same school and we don't know each other. And then three years ago, I planned to bring the other mummies and children. Why not together for the other event as well? And then, well, I'm running from this, from last three years with the 86 mummies. And then, yeah, we're doing a lot of activities for the children. Like, we are doing the, we did some flower planting in our garden, Plumstead gardens, and then cleaning, high street cleaning. And then, yeah, and we're celebrating the different festivals to bring the diversity in the community. Yeah, and, yeah, last year we, you know, small and weak, we did 12 events all together, and this event is run by our mummies, small font. And then, we're asking only for the mummies. And then, last year Greenwich, a real world of Greenwich, believe us, and then they give us a small font for the children's dance classes. And it's so popular that we get so many applications, then there is space. And then, yeah, this is how we're running the, our business, yeah, communities in Greenwich. And we want more fun to bring our children and the mummies together and bring the diversity in Greenwich. Thank you. Thank you, Gamaya. Right, so I think another potential recommendation could be having a look at the, kind of, application process through the council. Obviously, there's a balance between it being thorough whilst also being areas, but do you want to have a little response to that, Stuart? If I may, Chair, sorry, just to inform members as well as esteemed colleagues, we did do our first trawl through the application process last year. So, for instance, you can, Helen, apply by video. And again, Esther, the comment you made about having to fill in lots of forms. We did, from last year, allow people to put in video applications to hopefully make that part of the process easier. If I was to say there is a live paper being produced by Melanie now, in line with our culture strategy again, a phrase you'll hear me say lots of times tonight, to look and revise and simplify the process, to take on board the feedback we had from hundreds of organisations like yourselves. That would be a truthful answer, Chair. There is a paper being produced for the Cabinet member as we speak. Great, great to hear. Can I just, that's lovely to hear. But I think, you know, I don't know how you would deliver quite a complicated budget response to a budget by video. So, I mean, I welcome the fact you're looking at it. It's brilliant. But I also wanted to say, so the deadline for the applications, I think, was maybe at the end of October. And the window from which I could spend the money was from the 9th of December until the 31st of March. So, I was awarded the money on the 10th of December, okay, asked to provide paperwork for two weeks, which was the 24th of December. So, you know, and then told to spend the money by the thing. Now, I was able to do that because I was being made redundant and I've got the skills to turn things around quite quickly. But these things are not, do not make the process accessible. And it's not, you know, so, of course, things need to be thorough to echo your sentiment. You know, you can't go out and give up taxpayers' money willy-nilly, of course. But you need to be a bit lighter touch because the processes then make it inaccessible for people. And I think Esther's comment about people coming to see your work and they're going, okay, fine, tell you what, we'll give you 1,500 quid and we'll see how you are. Nobody came to my project, you know. I was expecting the council to come, you know. That would have been a really nice way of them seeing, you know, and it's a shame, isn't it? But I've worked at a council now. Thanks. Thanks, Alan. Sorry, Stuart, do you want to come back in? If I could just say, lots of points, very well made. And clearly we're also here to listen tonight as officers. I'm the assistant director for culture. To my left, sorry, I've just realised we haven't introduced ourselves. So my name's Stuart, Stuart Godfrey. To my left is Anne Mullins, who's our interim head of culture. To my left is Melanie Hawthorne, who's our deputy culture manager. So we are committed, you know, we're committed to working with you guys. Sorry, that's a sexist term. We are committed to working with everyone in the room. But there you go. Thank you. And, yeah, we certainly will take on board your points. I have seen a draft of the paper. So I hope if we get it approved, I hope you'll be happy with some of the recommendations we're making, Helen. Okay, thank you very much. Any other councillors got any questions for anyone? It's more about recommendations, because I totally echo what Claire said around making sure the services the council can offer up the market better. But there's been a few very active conversations here as well. So could we establish some kind of forum or surgery where people can actually get together and talk to each other to make sure that it happens on a more regular basis rather than in the council chamber? Yeah, I think there's both great recommendations. I'm happy to put those forward. Handing over to... Hello. I'm delighted to inform you as part of the Cultural Strategy Delivery Plan. That is actually something we are scoping, a creative network for our arts organisations and cultural organisations, alongside freelance artists who come together and to discuss trends and themes, attend masterclasses. So watch this space. Great. Yeah, council sir. Where does Greenwich Giving fit in with arts organisations? There's always one question that gets me, Aidan. Can we take that question away and come back to members? Is that okay? Yeah. Yeah. Hello. Can I just ask a question? Because I now recognise you. It's Melanie, isn't it? Yes. And I think you were at the meeting I went to about running festivals in the summer last year, I think. Maybe, no. I think it was you. Because we were told we couldn't apply because we weren't a charity or a kick. Is that still the case for when you apply for funding for running festivals? For World Greenwich Festivals, yes. Yes. That was the criteria for that financial year, yes. Yes. As Stuart has indicated earlier, we are in the process of reviewing all our grant skills, which is the Community Arts Funds, the Black History 365, and the World Greenwich Festivals, so that they are fit for purpose for all our organisations in this sector to apply for. So I can't guarantee, as a freelancer, you would be able to apply for the World Greenwich Festival Funds, because it was dependent on the scale of the funds you were applying for. So there's a level of risk. So I don't apply as a freelancer. I apply as a company. A limited company. But I'm not, yeah, as a limited company. But if I became a kick, would I be able to apply for that fund? Potentially. We're still in the... You're still talking about that? Yes. But I have your contact details, and we'll be in touch. Okay. Thank you. Great. So I'm quite conscious of time, because we've got a few other items on the agenda this evening. So I guess I just wanted to sort of round up, and if there's any other comments from our guests, please, I guess this is your opportunity. I mean, I've been clear that funding is obviously the number one ask for everyone, and that's always going to be the case, really, in the landscape that we're in at the moment. But if there was sort of a second thing that you'd like to see the council do differently that you could say in, I don't know, 20 seconds, then anything else that just we haven't really touched on today, it would be great to, yeah, final opportunity, I guess. Thank you. Panel members, as councillors, or if you ever do have any other suggestions, we are happy to take it up in any way we can. Thank you very much, everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. On to the next agenda item, which is community wealth building. And so this is sort of an opportunity to evaluate the community wealth building strategy from 2022. So we've got an evaluation report, and yeah, just if there's any recommendations that we have following the evaluation to the executive. So we've got Michelle here, and I guess Councillor Smith, likely to lead this report. So I will hand over to you to present, if that's okay. Thank you, thank you, Chair. Sorry, I'm just pinching a lozenge from Michelle. We both seem to have coughs. I have a cough also. Tickly throats. I'm pleased to introduce the report to the panel this evening, which provides an in-depth evaluation of community wealth building strategy and its impact over the past two years, alongside key recommendations for the future. Working with the Centre for Local Economic Strategies, CLEZ, and consulting with Anchor Dean Greenwich partners and subgroup members has been integral to the review process, ensuring that the findings and recommendations are robust and reflective of the collective insights from this collaborative effort. As you may know, the Council initially began working with CLEZ in 2021 to establish a Greenwich approach to community wealth building, and the strategy itself was adopted in 2022. Shortly after, in September of the same year, we established Anchor Dean Greenwich as a delivery partner. These approaches have been pivotal in our efforts to develop the inclusive economy strategy, which was adopted in July 24, and fosters a more people-centred approach to economic growth that works for everyone and delivers more equitable outcomes, rather than just the pursuit of profit at any cost. You'll see from the report that since the strategy was adopted, significant strides have been made, for instance, the latest figures for initiatives such as Greenwich Living Wage. We've increased the number of London Living-accredited businesses by 54% since the scheme was launched. This has benefited over 24,000 workers and significantly raised wages for almost 7,500 of the lowest-paid workers in the borough. We've successfully worked with anchored organisations like the University of Greenwich, the local Chamber of Commerce, and Peabody to host business breakfasts. The recent Greenwich and Meet the Buyers business event saw hundreds of businesses attending. With industry leaders and opportunities for business-to-business networking and exchange of ideas, our pledges to increase spending with local suppliers have resulted in 3.3 billion spent by Anchor Partners, with 6.6.9% of that expenditure, equating to 228 million spent with suppliers based in Greenwich, and 1.6 billion spent in London, which is the equivalent to supporting over 25,000 jobs in the regional economy. I should add that this spend analysis was based on the spend data for five of the 11 signatory anchor organisations. So this demonstrates a significant investment in the local economy and support for local businesses, showing how the Council and other anchor organisations are contributing substantially to the regional economy. If we assume this pattern of spending to be similar across all 11 anchor organisations, then that spend could reach to around 501 million locally and 3.5 billion across London. I hope the panel agrees that the partnership has shown tangible benefits. The evaluation has highlighted some areas for improvement, including key recommendations, which are to renew the partnership with updated commitments, invest in a dedicated coordinator to maintain engagement and drive initiatives, broaden the living wage subgroup to focus on overall employment, especially in deprived areas, improving job quality and inclusive employment practices, create a new decarbonisation subgroup to build on the Greenwich Summit outcomes, which include an agreed and shared approach on emissions tracking, explore collective actions on how the partnership can be best used, its land and assets through a new subgroup, which focuses on space for local businesses, particularly cooperative social enterprises, community interest companies, strengthen procurement processes to enhance local supplier spend and measure social value. I chaired an anchored in Greenwich meeting on the 25th of March, and I'm pleased to report there's widespread support for members to renew their pledges with updated commitments and reinforce their dedication. We'll be holding an in-person workshop in June to agree the new anchor pledges. And finally, I want to emphasise that this report on the work behind it represent a collaboration between external anchor partners and teams from across the council. If all the contributors were here, they would fill these seats behind me. Instead, you have me and the officers that have led on the work, and we hope this report does justice in showcasing what can be achieved when we harness the collective power of anchor organisations and demonstrates the success that's achieved from our focus efforts over the past two and a half years to create a more resilient and inclusive local economy aimed at retaining and redirecting wealth generated in the borough for the benefit of its people, places and the planet. I have to say that since I've had this post last June, I've really enjoyed chairing the anchored in Greenwich meetings. They are a good bunch of people. They are very enthusiastic, very committed, all speaking from the same page and all committed to making things happen and sharing in the opportunities that we've got. And in some of those meetings, you know, in the networking and the face-to-face meetings that I had held at that event, people do get opportunities. Michelle, I can't remember the name of that organisation, but the one that managed to get the contract by speaking to somebody at a meeting to, you know, carbon refit another organisation. So those things happen, those networking opportunities and the sharing of information and knowledge actually delivers jobs and growth for this borough. Thank you. Thank you very much, Jackie, and thank you for taking the time despite your illness. So, yeah, really, really helpful overview. And actually one of the things that I was just thinking as we have had kind of external partners come today and it's been, I think, quite helpful to hear from them. Maybe in a future meeting we can invite some of the Anken and Greenwich partners to hear from them about how they feel like this is working, if the panel thinks that might be a good idea. Or we can come to one of the events. I think both could easily happen. So, yes, we'll definitely look into that. So I'll hand over to the panel then. Anyone have any initial thoughts or questions? Yeah. Council for this. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Thank you for the report. I'm just thinking in terms of the – I noticed that the membership of the Anken and Greenwich partnership seems to be kind of leaning towards the kind of public and third sectors. And I wonder what kind of engagement – or what do you think is missing from the kind of private sector engagement? And I think I had another question around the living wage as well, which is great. It's up to 54%. I didn't quite get the statistics. Is that from – is that of employers in the borough? Or is that kind of – yeah, okay. So how do we get to kind of, I don't know, 70% or something like that? So, yeah, just a couple of thoughts on that. Yeah. I'll make a start and then others can chip in. I think the first thing to sort of say about anchor organisations, by definition, you know, they are largely organisations similar to the council. So there's a few sort of kind of features, if you like, that kind of make them anchor organisations. And anchor is a term, when you think about – often described as sticky capital. So they're not easily extracted from the local economy. So like the council, they're generally large employers, not exclusively, but large employers, significant sort of land and asset, also have significant purchasing power. And as I said, they're really embedded in the community. So for that reason, you know, you've got obviously the further education, higher education institutions, health partners, et cetera. But interestingly, although I don't know that they're a signatory organisation, you have got people like AEG. So obviously based on the peninsula. So they actively come and they attend. So you do have sort of private sector companies. But generally speaking, you know, there is kind of a definition, if you like. Hopefully that answers your question. And I think in respect to the living wage point, so we've got 130 businesses in the borough that are accredited London living wage employers. Obviously, we've got a lot more businesses in the borough that pay their staff the living wage at or above the living wage. But this is all about sort of, you know, getting people accredited and then guaranteeing that sort of annual uplift, I think. So, yeah, we are going to continue with that aspiration going forward. Thank you. Any other questions from the panel? Yeah, just following on from your response to that question. I guess where does our definition of anchor institution come from? Because my understanding was it is just a big, a large organisation sort of based in a place. And so people like Jewelry Coffee, I guess, which is the one in Woolwich that I get my coffee from, could be, you know, a big organisation that, you know, I'm sure employs lots of people and is in the borough. Is there any reason why we couldn't widen that definition or I don't know? That's just me. Yeah, I mean, I don't. It's about purchasing power. It's not really about the size of an individual business. And all of those other businesses will be represented via the Chamber of Commerce. They're all members of the Chamber of Commerce. So, you know, they all come to things. But it basically is about the power of procurement, quite frankly. You know, the events that we've held, it's about, you know, the one at Peabody, which, you know, we've had to review because if you saw the video, it was standing room only. And lessons to be learned is like, if it's done again, it'll have to be at a much bigger venue. So, because even though people booked, people still turned up. And that is about, basically, the big anchor organisation saying, you know, we're letting this contract, that contract, whatever, and talking to people who had interesting bidding for those contracts and having those kind of face-to-face conversations and being helped in that. So, the notion of it is that with the billions of spending power that these organisations have is to keep as much of that money within RBG as possible to make sure that those organisations in the borough that can provide those services, goods, or whatever it is that contract's about, are kind of fit and ready to be able to bid for that. And that's something that we're quite passionate about. And then, in turn, you know, they will become bigger business and employ more people and hopefully all accredited to the London living wage and making sure that the wealth does do exactly what we say, trickles down and makes people in the borough more affluent. It's very early days, but, you know, I am, I can't claim that I started it from the beginning because I didn't. But I think where we've got in such a short time is pretty impressive, to be honest. I was probably going to answer my own question here, but in terms of, because the one bit I was missing with all the development we've got going on in the borough was the kind of developers and things like that. But is that because of the kind of their impermanency, as it were, where they're kind of building and then moving on and this kind of thing? Is that why they're not included? Because when you think of all this development work, you know, that's... Sorry, I'm going to croak now as well. While we're on croaking duty. It is on. Yeah, yeah. Can everybody hear me? Okay. So, yeah, you're absolutely right in that. Those companies come and go. And so when we talk about anchor organisations, we talk about those that are here and that are static. But as Councillor Smith spoke about the Meet the Buyer event, we had those big construction companies there. So they were able to talk with the supply chain about potential opportunities coming up. And when we're doing sort of any works locally, what we aim to do is if we can't contract with a smaller organisation, because they're just literally too small, they don't have the manpower to do it, we contract with those larger organisations, but we ask them to contract, subcontract those smaller organisations. So it's about where we can get value within the supply chain in any way, shape or form we do. And the other thing to add to that is that we also provide support to those small organisations so that they can bid for those tenders. They can, you know, review their business plans. They can have a look at, you know, what their trajectory is for the next coming year to make sure that they're ready and waiting to go and take those contracts. Thanks. So, yeah, just going into these anchor organisations again. So I can see why lots of these companies would do it. So for some, it's kind of self-beneficial, like, you know, visit Greenwich, for example, makes sense to keep all of the sort of wealth within Greenwich. For some, it's going to be about doing the right thing for some of the private companies on there. It's going to be about getting a sort of ESG metrics, right? We're kind of putting a tick in the box. But if you want to sort of make it sustainable over the long term, you've got to look out and extend it to private companies. It's probably their bottom line that they're most interested in. And sort of showing that these partnerships improve the pattern of sustainability, or, I mean, commercial sustainability or bottom line of these companies is what's going to make it kind of self-propel. So it's not the council that's the engine of it, but in fact, it's their own company. That's how it's going to extend to those anchor companies and sort of not need the council's intervention anymore because it's better, it works better. So is that something you've thought about? Do we have plans to sort of move beyond the council doing it and sort of make it self-propel? I mean, I think just to say, I mean, we're all equal partners in it. You know, the council, we've kind of driven that. And I think, as you will see from one of the recommendations around perhaps having a dedicated coordinator that kind of helps drive some of the projects and some of the joint work in between meetings, because I think to get it off the ground, obviously we've taken the initiative as a local authority, but we're not the lead partner. We're all equal partners in this. And actually, probably, if we get to a position where we bring an external or we get an additional capacity, those conversations are live in terms of each of those anchor partners contributing towards the cost of that coordinator. So, again, it isn't somebody that would sit in the council. Actually, in other places like Birmingham, they have somebody actually in that particular scenario. They have somebody from Claire's that's seconded in. To work across the partnership. So, there's different ways that we can explore that. And I think, as we said, the in-person meeting that we're going to have in June, which coincides with Cooperative Fortnight, we are going to be refreshing those partnership pledges. And I think they're the sort of live conversations, you know, that we're going to be talking about. So, it isn't just the council. It is about a partnership, which I think is the point Councillor Smith was making, that actually, you know, there's many more organisations and partners and teams that are involved in it other than just kind of us tonight fronting it. So, a good point. And definitely, it would be good to get some of those here in the future. Thank you. Great. Any other questions from the panel about that? Okay, great. Well, I think that's it. Thank you very much for taking the time. And so, on to our next one, which I believe is you as well, Councillor Smith. It's the Nighttime Economy item. Yep. I'll hand over to you then, Michelle and Jackie, to kick off this one. Please. Thank you. I appreciate the chance to present this report, which details the significant efforts by... Sorry, the later it gets, the less my ability to speak coherently is. With the details of significant efforts by council officers and key partners over the past two and a half years to support the borough's evening and nighttime economy. I say that now because we do have an issue of the police not liking anything to do with the nighttime economy because when you say nighttime economy, their ears receive nightclubs. You know, they don't receive the information that is in this report. They get very, very wary of it. And, you know, if you read the report, and I stress, we're not talking about, you know, pushing for licenses till four o'clock in the morning. We're actually talking about keeping things open in the evening, particularly at the weekends, so that there are things for people to do. And clearly, they need to be well managed. So, it's worth emphasizing that. The formal definition that operates between 6 p.m. and 6 a.m., we're not thinking that. We are thinking about venues that play a crucial role, like restaurants, cafes, pubs, cinemas, theatres, all of those things that mean that people have something to do in the evening, particularly at weekends, in our town centres. There's a diverse range of sectors. About 50% of workers in the borough work during these hours, which are, you know, up until 11, 12 o'clock at night. In terms of how it aligns with Greenwich Missions activities, it supports the council's objectives to revitalise town centres and ensure job opportunities for all. Addressing the impact of online shopping, which has been disastrous for town centres, and other changes in consumer behaviour. It's important that we find ways to attract people into our town centres, increase footfall during the day and into the evening. And that's been the focus of much of our work to support the night-time economy. Also, the report highlights on the creation of a night worker toolkit to support the increasing number of night workers, often in low-paid jobs. It covers comprehensive guidance for employees who work during night time, and essential topics such as health and safety regs, the importance of maintaining healthy work-life balance, and strategies for managing sleep and fatigue, which often provides practical tips on nutrition and exercise to help night workers cope. So, successful initiatives like the High Streets for All in Greenwich Town Centre, a GLA-funded programme to support recovery from the pandemic, and the night-time enterprise zone in Woolwich have boosted the local economy and supported night workers. These programmes delivered in designated areas, a fostered collaboration between the council, businesses and communities to enhance night-time activities. And they're aimed at stimulating the economy, supporting existing and new jobs, and improving the night-time experience for residents and visitors, whilst acknowledging that the need to balance economic growth with residents' quality of life. The report evaluates the successes and challenges of the last two years, offering insights and a strong evidence-based guide to future work to develop a borough-wide evening and night-time economy. So, the work will incorporate areas such as Eltham, and there will be a nightclub next to your house, Councillor Claude. And where many businesses are calling out for support to boost footfall from the high street after 6pm. The strategy will be published by the summer, and we'll set up our future approach to ensure a safe, vibrant, and inclusive evening and night-time economy, balancing the economic benefits with residents' needs, and promoting a diverse culture offering, safety, business support, and accessibility, creating a well-managed night-time environment that enhances community life. The report emphasizes the need for ongoing partnership, working this in particularly true in addressing safety concerns and working with the police is crucial. Cross-department working with officers in safer spaces is key in order to address concerns in relation to the impact of the work, particularly given reduced staffing levels. So, we'd like to see this work informed and will be informed by future licensing policy, which is kind of on a parallel path to being developed as well. So, we need to make sure that this fits into the future licensing policy, and there are no gaps or overlaps. And we'd like to make sure that this work actually looks at what is here and base by what is here in the future. So, I think those of us that look at planning applications and whatever will probably know, and I know Woolwich better than anywhere else, but other people know their areas if they cover a town centre, that we've got probably seven, eight major planning applications that are either approved in the process of being approved, or, you know, in the pipeline ready to come through. And they put a significant amount of younger people in the town centre. There's a lot of student accommodation. There's a lot of co-living accommodation. There's a lot of flatted accommodation. So, the demographic of Woolwich over the next ten years is going to move to be much younger. You've only got to look at the way that the planning figures roll out. And at this moment in time, we have no cinema. We have not a lot for people to do. What we don't want is for people to... Of course, we want people to use the Elizabeth line, and we want people to use the DLR, but we don't want people just jumping on the Elizabeth line and going into central London and coming back again. We want them to spend time in Woolwich and our other town centres. We want there to be things for them to do, and we want all of that to happen safely without inconveniencing residents too much. So, it's a challenge, you know. But it's a challenge that I think that we're up to. I think we can work this out. We've got to work... You know, we have got to work very, very closely with safer spaces and regen in order to make sure the right things go in the right places and have the right support around them. And we are embarking on that now. So, I will leave you to read the report. Officers happy to take any questions. Thank you. Great. Yeah. Thank you. So, there's something here about business mix, I think. Because I don't think this is just about extending opening hours. I do think what people do in the evening is often different from what they do during the day. So, cinema, for example, is a great example of that. And I see this business mix pie chart in the report where it says takeaways are 19% of the businesses that are in Woolwich. Now, I love a good takeaway. They're excellent. But it does mean you get lots of bikes moving down Power Street. And so, pedestrians have to dodge them. And I'm surprised there aren't more accidents, quite frankly. So, getting that mix of businesses that are going to help the nighttime economy, like cafes and restaurants and bars and pubs and that sort of thing, versus those that perhaps might create more difficulties, is quite important, I think. So, have we looked at that at all? Hi, everybody. I'm interim head of business, Marcus and Town Centers, and have been leading the nighttime economy work in Michelle's team. Yes, it's a scourge of many town centers across the UK where we have a high level of food courier bikes in a concentrated location and, as you say, dangerous in many different ways and also not particularly attractive or welcoming. And it's a complex situation to try and resolve. And I think possibly, you know, it's about talking to the courier companies themselves and also trying to work out a way of managing the town center appropriately so that they park in the right place and that we are able to have some oversight and ability to kind of make sure they do that. I think what this is intimately entwined with is the enhanced way in which we want to manage our town centers more generally as well. So, under Councillor Smith's leadership, we're looking at enhanced town center management in and across Woolwich, Ellsum and Greenwich town centers. Part of that will be about the evening economy, of course, and so this runs parallel and alongside the work that we're talking about today. And it will be about how we manage the various uses in the town center. The use of takeaway courier bikes is absolutely kind of integral. There's no way we can change that. That's going to be a fact of life. How we manage the use of the town center, where they rest and where they pick up food from and where they park their bikes and how they actually, you know, get to those food takeaways is where we have to come in and be quite robust in the way we want to manage it and be clear. At the moment, we don't have that, but I think there's scope, particularly in Woolwich, to enable us to do that more effectively. And I can go on about how we might do it, but it's going to be about being more directive in terms of where we expect them to park and how we expect them to behave when they are in the town center. And also ensuring that all the businesses that utilize those services are also able to direct and make sure that their couriers that come to get food from them behave appropriately as well. It's not an easy thing. I'm not pretending it is, but we have actively part of our town center management regime to kind of examine that and to do better in the way we manage their use of the town center. Thank you for the report. Thank you, Chair. Thank you for the report. I noticed, so I wanted to go back to the point you made around the difficulty you had with getting the police to get on your side in some of the town centers. And I noticed in the report in one of the successes you mentioned was partnership working. So I just wondered if you could sort of give a bit more detail on how that sort of, what kind of, well, not techniques, but the approaches that you did with community groups because representing Eltham, that's obviously the next kind of area that you're looking to do. So I'll be interested to see how you can engage with the community and with the police on, you know, improving the nighttime economy there. Yeah, it's quite timely you mentioned Eltham. We are about to, well, we have actually met our first, I have our first meeting of the, what we're calling an Eltham Town Center marketing and events partnership group. So they all meet collectively every month. And we'll look at ensuring businesses that are utilizing the nighttime and evening economy or those times of night to apply their trade to be present at those meetings. I think, again, I'm kind of saying the same thing again, really. We have a nighttime strategy which we're just about to develop now for the whole borough. So the engagement in that process is really important. So being able to access business, community, resident, young people, night workers in the delivery of that strategy is really vitally important. In Eltham, particularly, we want to use the kind of existing town center partnership structure we have there, which we've just reinvigorated. It meets quarterly. And then, as I mentioned, a subgroup that looks at marketing and events specifically will have an ongoing kind of remit, we hope, to influence the strategy in Eltham particularly. That means talking to people like the Sky Bar, who occupy the space above the cinema, some of the key restaurant facilities, the Bob Hope Theater, et cetera. All those guys having an impact and telling us what they need to make the evening economy more successful in that particular town center. And then we need to mirror that approach across Greenwich and Woolwich and North Greenwich as well, where we have a significant amount of nighttime activity, but we're maybe not making the most of it in terms of getting people to stay longer in the borough other than just go to their concert and leave via the Jubilee line afterwards. So the nighttime strategy approach is to have discrete approaches to those geographies where each individual town center has a method of engagement, particularly with young people. I think we mentioned earlier the development in the Woolwich, particularly where we're having a lot of student accommodation coming forward. We need to make sure that we're developing and devising our nighttime strategy to suit the needs of those young people. And at the moment, we're not doing that effectively. And I think this work that we're going to be doing over the next four months, which Councillor Smith mentioned earlier, will be our route into understanding what those young people want to do, how they want to use their town centers, what they feel about using their town centers, and how we can improve it. So it's a complex situation, but we are going to be focusing in those key town centers where most of the nighttime activity in the borough is going to take place. It's about working with colleagues in culture as well that have now run away. Lucky them. But, you know, Woolwich Works is hugely underutilized. You know, it's not, it's not, it's a work in progress. But we need to be working with them as well to say, listen, this is how many young people are coming. You know, we need to be trying to do some surveys with people when they arrive to say, what would you like to see? And we need to get Woolwich Works to move with that so that they put on stuff there that young people want to do. There is no, there is no escape room in Woolwich. There is nothing to do with gaming, really. There is something down Hare Street, but it's, it's, it's not open in the evening. It's, it's a daytime thing and it's, and it tends to be for kids rather than, than older adults. You know, I think we have to look at, young people love gaming. We know that, but we don't want them doing it from their bedroom. We want them to come out of the house and mix with other people. And, you know, COVID is over. People need to start to come out and socialize because we know that that, you know, that means a lot to people's mental well-being and, you know, interaction with human beings is, is, is kind of vital to, to, to keep our souls nourished, she says. I sound a bit preachy there, don't I? Um, um, but, you know, all of those things we have to think about. So it's not just us doing it. We have to work across the board with, with colleagues from other bits of the council and our anchored organisations and other businesses to say, you know, what is it that we can do, you know, together to mean that we make this a vibrant town? I was watching, you can get it on, in the archive, but you can get it on YouTube somewhere, I think. I got it sent by Theresa Pearce, which is a video of Woolwich in the late 50s and 60s. And it's about 40 minutes long. And it's, it's, you see all the places that you've long forgotten about. But what they say is, there's nothing to do in the evening. You've seen that one? Yes. Yeah, there is nothing to do in the evening, you know. And it's like, well, everything's changed, but nothing's changed. And it's, it's, um, and you kind of think, well, we had two cinemas then and, and other stuff. And they were still saying there was nothing to do in the evening. So, you know, I, I, I guess that's a bit of a Woolwichy thing, but we need to try to make an impact into that, really. Thanks. That's really helpful. And I'm glad you've talked about gaming in particular. And, uh, I know in like Lewisham, you can't get a table at the board game cafes in there. So it feels like there is some like open doors there that we should be taking advantage of. Um, Councillor Smith, did you want to come in? I was going to say, can I just jump in quickly? Sorry, Councillor Smith. Um, um, um, cause I, I, you mentioned about young people and it was kind of, this was sort of just onto that point around, obviously we, you know, in, in the borough, we've had some, um, very tragic events recently. And, um, one of the sort of things is that, you know, we need, I guess we're all thinking about is how to engage young people to stop them spending time doing what, you know, we don't want them to do at the moment and to get them involved in perhaps more, you know, um, enriching activities than, than that. So you, you kind of answered that a little bit yourself. So I just wanted to kind of make that point. It's good that you're moving in that direction, I think. The definition of young people is not the same as yours, possibly. My definition of young people is anybody under 14. You know, it's, it's, it's, you know, I think there's the stuff you'd need to talk to Adele about things that are happening in order because I know that they're redoing the, um, the strategy about activities for young people and, um, and redoing the contract, I think, for youth clubs and incorporating that with, with adventure playgrounds and whatever. But yeah, I mean, if, if, if, if we ever do get a cinema in, in one age, that's things that young people do. Um, I mean, I sadly have read some stuff on, on, on, um, social media today about it's all kicked off Don Blackheath around the fun fair. Um, I don't think anything tragic's happened, but it, it involved lots and lots of police and, um, things kind of falling apart and young people trying to get into somewhere that they should pay for and not paying and whatever. And it's caused a big sort of social media thing. Um, what we are aiming to do, um, and what we've already got, we've, we've got in progress is working with Safer Spaces colleagues is to get some extra money invested from the, the, the 106 money, um, to put in a nighttime shift in town centers. So, you know, at the moment they finish at six o'clock and we're not going to get them to work till two o'clock in the morning, but a presence until 10 o'clock at night would, would, you know, with people walking around in a uniform will, will generate a, a sense of safety to people, you know, um, and we can't control the police. You know, the fact is we can't control the police. The best one in the world, we can have great relationships, but they get abstracted. They, we, we didn't have any, um, town center police for the whole of the summer last year is the truth in Oneage. They all got abstracted to all sorts of protests and riots and football matches and whatever. And we, we, we kind of had no presence at all from the actual town center policing team, um, which is unfortunate because, but that is the way that life works. People get abstracted to major central London events when, when the power's needed. So, you know, we do have to look at creating our own safety mechanism that we can control. We can control the shifts of our own staff. We can control where they go and what they do. Um, and I think, you know, in cooperation with the police, that's kind of where the future lies in making things feel, feel less edgy in the evenings. It's the one thing people say that puts them off coming out. Whether it's true or not in reality, because I live in Woolwich, as you know, and I've never felt unsafe in Woolwich, and I'm out till, again, it makes me sound, um, um, a little bit, um, I am out late at night. You know, and, and, and I've never had anything happen to me. Um, but I think the perception of feeling unsafe is, is much greater than the actual being unsafe. But if that's how people feel, we have to try to reassure that, yeah? Absolutely. Thank you, um, Councillor Smith. And now to the other Councillor Smith. Thank you, Chair. Uh, I mean, I think Councillor Smith is talking about the gaming places at the VR site on, I remember going there with the night zone on a visit, and it was quite horrific, but, but very clever. Um, but on, on the hair street, on the, and we went on the thing that was like a fairground ride that swung you up in the air, and even however much you tell yourself, I'm just sitting in a seat in Woolwich, your brain tells you otherwise. Um, I mean, you talked about the lack of late, like, licensing because of police support, or lack of police support, but it's also our licensing department. Like, I'm aware of, for example, a premises near here that's quite a respectable premises that wanted to sell wine to take away in the evening, and we refused a license. So, I mean, how do we, how do we get our licensing team to actually be a bit more measured, and? I think it's erratic, Aidan, is the truth. Um, I think they're okay with some, and, and some they're not with, and it depends how many people object as well, which seems to have a bit of an impact on it. But it's why, I mean, Tom got, Tom got an email from me earlier, because we're talking about it. And, you know, my response to Tom is, we have to absolutely right now, you know, vitally, because I know that Rachel is currently looking at the next iteration of the licensing policy. What we do, and what that policy says, have to, have to be absolutely the same. And we have to talk these things through, and say, okay, you know, no ifs, ands, or buts. What does this mean? You know, and clearly we have to listen to residents, because nobody wants a four o'clock nightclub next to their house. I don't think. Oh, Claire, where do you, where do you live? We'll write that down. But, but it's, it's just about keeping it measured, isn't it? It's about making sure that you, because I think there is something enshrined in law, don't ask me to quote it to you, about people having the right to enjoy a peaceful environment past 11 p.m. at night. And how do you measure that with what we're doing? Well, we're not saying we want things to be loud. We're not saying we want things to be raucous. We're just saying, actually, I'd quite like to be able to go out for a meal at nine o'clock at night in Woolwich and find somewhere open that's not, that's not Nando's or, or McDonald's, you know? It would, it would be nice to go somewhere. Having just come back from Malta, where you can go to about 5,000 restaurants in Valletta, you know, all through the evening, some with nice live music that's not overly loud. But, but, you know, there's an environment we want to try to create for a town centre that, that I think, as I said earlier, means working with people across the directorates and with partners to say, you know, how are we going to create this? What, and, and absolutely, you're right, Simon, we need to be talking to the developers to say, you know, you're creating X amount of homes here and the demographics of those people is likely to be that. How can you help us to develop an environment that they would like to use? Oh, and by the way, it's in your interest because you'll sell more properties. You know, it's, we've got to develop. They talk, the talk about placemaking, right, but it's kind of walk in the walk. Absolutely so. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was also on holiday last week and you had outdoor dining in residential areas but it was sort of enclosed gazebos like semi-permanent structures. Yeah, well, well, I think we need it because it would contain the noise so you wouldn't have, or it might reduce sort of the Soho problems but it still allows people to go out. You know those little igloo-y type pods where you can use restaurants outside all year? We're looking at where can we use those? How can we use them? How portable are they? Can we move them around? Can we store them when we're not using them? We've got a little bit of a project going on because I, like you, I've spent a lot of my time last week in outdoor enclosures. Actually, when it was raining so much that it was coming in and my feet were in a puddle but it was still but it was still enjoyable-ish. But, you know, we have to look at how we can create, not everywhere, but in our town centres, even if it's a bit of an area where, you know, can we make Berriford Square, you know, at night, something that's got, even if it's from food carts, in an outdoor eating, sitting down in pod area where we can encourage people to get off the Elizabeth line and come and spend time in Woolwich rather than just use it as a vehicle to go to a bus stop or the main line station or to the DLR. You get off the Elizabeth line and, you know, we want you to spend time here. That's what we want to try to create. I think also one thing that we have never really got the hang of properly is meanwhile use. So, for example, we sold the old Borough Hall in my ward and that was bought by someone who says they're going to turn it into a hotel but in the meantime they've leased it to an events company and I'm not going to pretend it's all been plain sailing because it hasn't but, you know, but that has done that. So, I mean, have we looked again at things like Woolwich Market because it doesn't seem to be moving that quickly? I mean, well, could someone erect a structure within it? No, no. I mean, you know. If you went in there the electrics of all the plumbing is going and everything is completely... Well, the same with the Borough Hall but this company did it up and then, you know, so you could have someone doing the electrics and plumbing and you just say you start paying the rent. We were talking to them our experience wasn't great we may need to go higher up the chain because there's a big empty unit right in the middle of Woolwich that used to be New Look then the Job Centre and it's a big unit on two floors that is sitting empty at the moment they're talking about looking for tenants but they've got nowhere I mean, that's a place in my mind that we could look at doing like indoor-y foodie things and a temporary space if they don't find a tenant but I think we need to go higher up the level to the people that come and talk to us because they're not particularly receptive to anything. Yeah, and British Land in my experience are not interested in innovation. No, they're interested in realising their investment. Yes, yeah. And again going back to the issue raised about the sort of delivery riders Councillor Ober Mulligan and I have been asking transport to put in bays in Greenwich Town Centre and we've even identified them but they've told us they don't have the capacity to do it. They did it in Elton. Well, they've told us they don't have the staffing capacity but we need to... I'm happy to have that conversation with you with them because Woolwich is I mean we all know probably Woolwich is the worst affected area. There seem to be probably ten drivers to every delivery as far as I can see. I can't see that they can possibly... And they sit there for hours and hours and hours without going out and cause problems and behave quite antisocially. We are looking at a designated area that's kind of off of Powish Street just and as Tom said earlier we haven't quite worked it through yet but we will be saying you use that area you don't use your bike to go to the shop over there you use your feet to do it you come out you take it off and if you don't do it we might have to put in a PSPO to say you'll be fine if you don't because I don't think they're going to do it voluntary but we're working that one through. And also just to say line bikes as well in Greenwich Town Centre we understand the number of bikes that are dumped there inconsiderately is amazing and we need to work with them to work out solutions to how we can best ensure that they're not littered across the town centre and if they are left they're left in an orderly place or at least collected regularly more regularly than they are now. I mean there is a solution it's just we haven't got them to sign up to it. I think hold them hostage and let them be collected. We might be slightly going off coming here. So I'll come to the end of the meeting. So yeah sorry did you just want to come in at the end? I've got one more question if there's time. Okay just to say I'm really happy to engage fully with all council all members around the borough-wide night time strategy which we're just about to embark upon delivery now. So between now and probably mid August we have a great opportunity to engage with all members and also stakeholders internal officers and other service providers in the town centres particularly. And then of course as I said we'll be out in the community as well with a young person's forum particularly that will be leading young person's input into the study into the strategy. I understand what they want need. Equally a broader night time forum as well made up of residents businesses and others of a real passion for this area of work. So that will be something that's coming to you quite in the near future. Happy to share with everyone in the scrutiny panel but equally more broadly with members across the piece. Yeah I just have one question and hopefully it's a quick one. I just noticed that we don't have any business improvement districts in Greenwich and I sort of wondered why that was. It seems like quite a good way to get businesses invested and giving money that we don't have to improve each area. base is the answer to that one. Great well it was quick. So I mean it sounds like Councillor Smith and the officers kind of vision for the night time economy is quite aligned to some of the questions that we've asked today but is there any recommendations that we want to sort of put forward that we haven't really discussed? I mean do you want to do one about the bike bays? Yeah we'll do one about the bike bays just so you've got it. And the delivery bikes. Great. Any others that have come through the discussion? Well we'll always circulate an email if there's anything else that comes through from the minutes. But yes then that's I think everything for that item. So thank you very much Councillor Smith and the officers for coming along tonight. And we've just got commissioning of future reports so we've got our next panel meeting on the 23rd of April so sorry that it's so soon but a mixture of illness and PIRDA has meant that we've had squished them in at the end so but yes so just to note that that's coming and before we conclude if the councillors don't mind just staying for a few minutes at the end that would be grand. Otherwise thank thank you very much.