Transcript

Evening all, just seeing everybody's present and correct, just if you bear with us for a few seconds. Thank you. Jacqueline, can you just confirm everybody's here that needs to be? Yes, Chair. Thank you. Okay, before we begin, I need to ask if there is nominations for the Chair, please. I would like to nominate Councillor David Robson as Chair. Do I have a seconder? Seconded. Thank you. Can I just remind those coming into the room to make sure you've got your microphones on silent, please? Thank you. So, good evening, everybody, and welcome to the meeting of the Licensing Subcommittee. I'm Councillor David Robson, Councillor of Clapham Town. Before we start the meeting, I've got a few announcements to make about the meeting rules. The meeting is hosted by Lambeth Council and has been broadcast live via audio minutes and recordings made for quality and training purposes. In the event that any tech issues require the meeting to be adjourned and it cannot be restarted within a few minutes. Further updates will be posted on the Council's Democracy Twitter account, which is at, or we should say X account, sorry, which is at LBL Democracy. There's no scheduled fire alarms, so if one should go off in the Town Hall here, then you'll have to excuse me, we'll have to go out and tend to it. To ensure that this meeting runs smoothly, only one individual will be allowed to speak at any time. If you've joined the meeting, what we all have, via Teams, please ensure that your microphone is muted. Any person speaking must be permitted to finish what they're saying without interruption. And if I request that any individual stop speaking, they should do so immediately. Interruptions may result in you being disconnected from the meeting. And if I can ask to make sure that your names are clearly written in your profile and when you're presenting, that your cameras are switched on with no distractions in the background, please. Members of the public are welcome to record or tweet the public proceedings of the meeting. And please note that the subcommittee will notify the interested parties of its decision on each application within five working days. It's at this stage that I would ask the committee to introduce themselves. Councillor O'Hara, do you want to go first? Yes, thank you, Chair. I'm Councillor Scarlett O'Hara. I represent Brixton Windrush Ward and I'm a member of the committee. Hi, I'm Councillor Isla Rathmore. I represent Vauxhall Ward and I'm also a member of the committee. And we'll be hearing from our licensing officers a little bit later on the agenda, but I'll come to Democratic Services of Jacqueline. Oh, muted. Sorry, I start again. Good evening, everyone. I'm Jacqueline Pennycook, Democratic Services, and I'll be taking the notes for this hearing. Thank you, Jacqueline. And over to Legal. Good evening, everybody. My name's Jean-Marc McCorm, and I'm a solicitor and I work in the Lamb of Legal Services, and I'm the legal advisor to this committee. Thank you both. As I say, we'll come on to the licensing officers who will be presented a little bit later in the agenda. But as Jacqueline mentioned, minutes, shall we, can I take it that the previous meetings of the previous meeting held on the 12th of March are agreed? Agreed from my side. Thank you very much. That takes us up to item number four, 4A, 4 on the agenda, which is licensing applications. We're going to take it in the order of the paper, which is first up is Buddy's Deli, and then next up after that is going to be exquisite. So, 4A, Buddy's Deli, which is located at 1, the Polygon, SW40JG. It's a new application. I should have declared under item number two. Not that I feel I've got any interest within this, but I should say that this item is from a business that's located in my ward of Clapham Town, just for the sake of the minutes. So, on that note, can I hand to the licensing officer, Ola, to introduce yourself and this application, please. Thank you, Chair. My name is Ola Oujuri, and I'm the licensing officer presenting this application at this evening hearing. There's an application for a new premises license for Buddy's Deli at 1, the Polygon, and the application is seeking sale by retail of alcohol on and off the premises, Monday to Sunday from 11 a.m. to 10 p.m., and opening hours are Monday to Sunday from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. At these hours, the revisor was following discussion with objectors. In attendance for the applicant is Christian Stassen, and eight representations were submitted against this application, seven from members of the public and one from one amenity group. The objections from Matthew at page 34 of the report are subsequently withdrawn, as he now believes that the premises is a great lead to Delhi and they can't see it causing disturbance issues with their current operation. The seven other representations are contained in the report at various pages, the LSE report can be found at pages 15 to 19 of the report, and the application form is at pages 21 to 27. The representations are at pages 31 to 40 and 47 to 52. In attendance from the objectors, the only objectors confirmed the attendants is Nick Biskinis, who is representing the Clapham Safer Neighbourhood team. That concludes my introduction, and if there's no question for me, I will ask the applicant to present the application. Are there any questions for Ola at the stage committee? Nothing at this stage, but I think we might come back to you at some stage, Ola. Nick, if you don't mind, I will pause for any kind of, unless it's a procedural point at this stage. Okay. Thank you. On that note, I'm going to come over to the applicant, which is Mr Stassen. Can you please ensure that your camera is switched on so we can see you when presenting, please? Thank you. Do you have up to five minutes to address the committee, and then we'll open up to questions? Thank you. Yes. Hello. My name is Chris Stassen. So I currently run two restaurants and now Buddy's Deli. One of them is actually in Old Town, just across the way, which is a brunch restaurant. And then we also look after the bar, cafe in the Omnibus. So yeah, the reason for applying for this application is we opened the venue a couple of weeks ago with the intention of predominantly operating as a deli, which we have been, and it's been a quite good sort of start for us in the last couple of weeks, just making amazing sandwiches and producing fresh salads, and it's really the main part of the business. Due to the location, we feel, and obviously it's surrounded by several pubs, as part of our offering, we offer charcuterie and cold meats as part of the deli. We want to offer potentially some wine and things to go with that service. We have only a small number of seats within the deli, and because the deli is located on the polygon, we have applied for some seating out the front, which is next to the Rose and Crown. And as part of that service, and as part of a business that wants to make additional revenue, it makes sense that we can offer a service for some wine to sit outside on the polygon on a nice day. Up to date, the other venues I have, I've all got alcohol licences. One of them is located on Northcote Road, and I've been quite, obviously, in terms of the licensing objectives, I feel like I'm an extremely responsible owner and applicant. We also look after the cafe bar within the Omnibus Theatre. We took management of that about a year ago and really worked closely with the theatre and everyone there to make that a great venue for Old Town as well. So within Old Town, within 30 metres, I actually run three venues and feel like my interest in the area and investment in the area and employing a lot of people within the area and the amount of tax and business rates I pay has actually changed Old Town, hopefully for the better. So you've got the pubs that are quite busy, and hopefully we're a good antidote to some of the pubs to offer something different as well. And even the immediate feedback from the deli is that people have needed something like this locally. It's a nice addition to the area, and one of the objectives even withdrew their application after us being open for two weeks. So really, that's the purpose for the application, really. Any questions? Oh, I'm sure there'll be plenty. Thank you, Mr Staston. Is that all to say in the minute? Brilliant. OK, so committee, I'll throw it over to you first. Or shall I dive in? OK, I'm happy to lead. So could you just tell me a little bit more about the business model, please? I mean, I know you mentioned that it's a deli and the charcuterie and such, but I suppose what's the... We would just like to hear a little bit more about what purpose will it have, having an alcohol license up until 10 o'clock, I suppose? I mean, the venue itself is extremely small. So I'd say 90% of the, or 80% of the current cafe is taken up with what you'd call the kitchen, open kitchen for the sandwich making. So the reason for the alcohol license as well is at the small display unit. I'm actually in the shop. I can show you. A lot of it is... That's OK. That's OK for now. It's to offer a bit of wine on the side and then hopefully people can try the wine in the... So it's not necessarily to take away home, it's what, to drink on site? It will take away. It will take away home. Yeah, because there's a lot of margin within alcohol, obviously, if they can buy the wine, if they can sell that as people go past on the way home, they can take a bottle of wine home. OK, so it's primarily for on site? I'd say it's a mixture. Yeah, we want to sell off-site as well. OK, that's what I'm just trying to get a bit more understanding of the business model. Is it this kind of high-end deli where you get these lovely fine wines, take it home, enjoy it? Or is it very much have the sandwiches sit here? I mean, I hear what you're saying. It's kind of both, but I suppose I'm just trying to get that kind of a clarification on the business model as such. Yeah. If I'm honest, I mean, the alcohol is a bit of a... It's like such a... It would be such a small part for us in terms of how many sandwiches we're currently in. Making, that is the main driver for the business. Because of it, it's purely I'm applying because of where we are in the area, right? It's busy. If we close at four or five and there's a lot of people that want to come for a nice, a nice bit of wine instead of going to the pub, that's what we want to offer. Is it somewhere to sit inside and have it as well? OK, thank you. I think Scarlett, if you want to go next. Thanks, Chair. Yes. Just a couple of questions. I was thinking about deliveries and delivery services. Is that something you're thinking about? Is that also... Are you thinking about using delivery services? And also about the winter? These are quite summer... You know, thinking about a nice sunny day, I can imagine sitting outside with a drink. But what about in the wintertime? Have you thought about how that might work? So those two questions. When you say deliveries, you mean Uber Eats or... Yes. Uber Eats. So with my other businesses, we've always stayed away from Uber Eats and stuff because we want people to experience inside. And it's not set up as a takeaway business. Takeaway businesses are specifically set up a certain way because the delivery companies charge quite a high percentage. So you can't add too... It's a background. You can't have too many staff on. It's high producing. We're not like that. We have a lot of staff in the shop. So we want people to come into the shop. The only thing that we are going to do in that respect is people can pre-order and then come and pick up in the shop. I want to stay away. I've always stayed away in my other shops from doing delivery or anything like that because you don't make much money unless you're doing an evening pizza kind of place. So we wouldn't do any kind of delivery. In the winter, winter and hospitality in Old Town really gets a bit quieter. So in Brew and Barrel, across the road, we actually close early on in the winter. There's nothing really obviously can do much about the weather. So your seasonality hours might change or do change for us anyway. So at Brew and Barrel, we might open Monday, Tuesday, whereas in the winter, we don't open Monday, Tuesdays and some Wednesdays because it's freezing and things like that. Okay. So you don't have outside heaters or anything like that? No. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Hiya. Hiya. So, yeah, I think a lot of the concerns are kind of related to sort of noise and disturbance on the polygon outside. And I was just wondering, so obviously you're selling alcohol to be consumed on the premises and you're selling alcohol to be sort of taken away. And with the takeaway kind of aspects, is it all going to be, you know, are you going to be selling open bottles or is it all going to be sort of closed containers? Yes. So I think one of the things I agreed with OLAP and the licensing application is if we sold anything, it's got to be a manufacturing field. It's obviously got the Rose and Crown. I'm sat here now, right? So they do open pints and stuff like that. We won't have the facility. We don't have pints and things like that. So I mean, we can't take in the Rose and Crown into this hearing, but I mean, I get what you're saying, but just for the clarity for the committee, we can't pay what they do to this hearing. So could you, so I think you're looking for further clarification. So basically when somebody would be able to take the wine that they bought from you and then be able to sit in the Polygon and drink it? Well, we'll have our tables and chairs outside so we can say to them that they have to consume it. On a busy, sunny day. Yeah. I mean, yeah, we'll put a sign up saying it must be consumed on the premises. Depends what direction you want. We don't want to be contributing, obviously to the square being busy, but there's two large, like obviously we don't want to go into that. They're producing a lot more than us. So the intention is that they sit down and drink on the premises or on the chairs outside. Or take it home with them. Or take it home, yeah. Okay. Sorry, Isla, to jump in there, but I don't know if you had any other point or question then. No, I mean, I guess the other thing was what they, what you would be doing to, yeah, kind of prevent any public nuisance on the Polygon. And it sounds like you're going to put up a sign to, you know, deter people from drinking outside the seating you provide. And is there anything else you're thinking of doing to stop public nuisance in the outside in the Polygon? I'm just trying to think, but we obviously don't have a, it's a very small venue and the amount of seating we've got, all we can do is have obviously a person who's got a personal license, always on the, on the premises they trained to with all the licensing objectives. I've got a personal license about four of my, four or five of my staff have all got personal licenses. So will anyone who's got a personal license has to be, and they'll be trained actually at Brewing Barrel. We don't, we don't do takeaway there at the moment. So we don't want people to do takeaways there, that side of the square. So it would just be a no takeaway policy. I mean, I should clarify that as well under condition 16 and 17, which I think might satisfy Council Rathmell, it says the supply of alcohol at the premises should only be to persons seated at a table and for consumption by such persons as ancillary to food. And 17 says the supply of alcohol for consumption of the premises shall be by waiter or waitress service only. I think that helps clarify things a little bit as well. But just on the note, just to jump in as well there, I think it's, yeah, I mean, the Polygon obviously does get a little bit busy and we know it's, you know, people are going to come and sit there, whatever, aren't they? It's not necessarily to do with your business or the Rose and Crown or the POW or whatever else. But I suppose it would just be encouraging, I think, for the committee to hear a little bit more about any kind of crowd dispersal management plans. You know, I think that would be really helpful to understand about how you, how you could have a grip on your, your customers as it were. Yeah, so obviously the applications only till 10 o'clock and every other pub will be later than us, even brew and barrel. So we'll be putting a sign up saying we close at 10, the seating will be taken in, or the application for the seating will be closed at 10 and we'll, we'll disperse customers as we usually do at my other venues. So we'll put signs up saying that there's no, we'll stop service. 15 minutes before 10. And then obviously last coverage or last service at 10. I would encourage or maybe ask, I don't know if you were, I mean, you obviously must be part of this is Clapham already. And I just, I think, are you aware of the fortnightly Friday night briefings that happened? And would you be, you know, I mean, I know there's probably a small number of staff there, so it'd be a bit more difficult for you to get away. But I, I think with anyone who's contributing to the, you know, the nighttime economy in Clapham, would participate in and engage in, in that kind of support that's there that the bid offers, especially in kind of linking in with crowd dispersal and such. So the, uh, do you mean the hub? Yes. Yeah. So, um, I've me, I've been meaning to attend them myself, having obviously three venues within the media area. So I can commit to either sending one of my managers or myself, running four venues. Obviously my time is pretty, pretty constrained at the moment. We're the opening buddies as well. So, um, I would, and I do engage. I'm on the WhatsApp group and we, we obviously, um, contribute towards that as well, in terms of what is a pub watch effectively, who comes in and out, and then, um, be open to attend more of those meetings. But I, I think being a proactive member of that and in attendance, or, I mean, with four premises, I think maybe being able to be present. I think you, if someone should be able to represent the businesses at that, I think as well, just to encourage a little bit of working together on the high street, a little bit, I think would, would be a bad suggestion. Scarlett, sorry, you've been patiently with your hand up. Oh yeah, no, that is following on from that. Uh, actually, um, you mentioned that you have quite a high number of staff. So I'm just keen to check whether you were one of those members of staff, or a couple of those members of staff would be people who are used to dealing with serving alcohol. So in your premises where you serve alcohol, I know you have other premises where you do serve alcohol. So they would be used to dealing with that. Process and also with the crowd dispersal process at the end of the evening. Yeah. So we, I've got quite a lot of staff because all my venues or even the omnibus, we open from seven and then on to midnight, some of the other venues. Um, and I hired distinctly different people. So we have brunch is like our main thing at the other venues and here sandwiches. So a number of chefs and then because you can't, because of the turnover and hospitality, you've got a higher speciality. So I've got a bar staff I specifically hired just for the bar. So they all got premises licenses. Uh, my main head barman at brew and barrel is used to work at the wall door. Uh, and so a higher speciality. So they're all trained up. We also provide extra training. Uh, we've got a HR company that we use with a portal where they all get, um, extra training on, um, alcohol measurements and all that stuff. So as well as getting the level two, not level two, that's great. Sorry. Um, as well as getting the, uh, the personal licenses, um, anyone working with someone, the personal license is put through additional training. Um, so we use a company called Peninsula for you. If you ever Google them, um, we've got a whole HR training program, uh, for our staff, just as we're getting bigger, it's better, it's better for my company that we put everyone for health and safety. We have internal audits. I've already had, um, fire risk, safety, external audits, uh, food safety, and then obviously, uh, alcohol training on top of that. Hmm. So there would be someone there in the evening who was able to, who was experienced at dealing with people, so people drinking alcohol and crowd dispersal, that, that sort of process. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All right, Laura. Yeah, I was just looking at, um, the, um, the pack again, and, um, uh, obviously one side is sort of facing the square of the polygon, as it were, um, the other side is sort of facing the, the pavement. Um, and yeah, it seems like, you know, you're quite popular and even, you know, even your people who's not like, you know, they haven't bought anything yet, but like people waiting in the queue, it sounds like there's quite a big queue outside on a nice day. Um, but obviously, um, which is great for you, but, um, obviously, um, there's an issue about people sort of getting past, especially people who might be vulnerable, disabled. And I was just wondering, you know, you're going to sort of take active steps to ensure that the sort of, the gathering outside on the, on that pavement that is sort of orderly, like, you know, a nice orderly queue that's not blocking the pavement, you know, is anything you can do about that to make sure that does happen? Yeah, obviously mate, I don't think that queuing bit is obviously we're learning, right? So it's a small venue with, we've only been in two weeks and we are obviously looking, seeing that we are getting a queue and this side of the road is a little bit narrow. Um, so actually looked into getting just maybe a little barrier. We put signs in the window saying queue along here. Um, and that's just the daytime service stuff. So I don't anticipate that there'll be queues or that side door. We don't have, we wouldn't use when there's an, for the licensable activities in the evening, because it doesn't make sense. No one's queuing really for, to sit down. Um, but obviously, yeah, like it's something I've noticed. Um, and obviously we've been quite popular and you need to be, to survive as a, survive as a business, uh, with all the costs going up. So yeah, thinking about how do we manage the people waiting for sandwiches, um, in the daytime is something that, um, I'm going to, I've been looking at whether I get like, uh, just for the two hours, three hours, we've actually busy for sandwiches, whether we get like a little temporary, temporary little, um, barrier saying, please wait here for your sandwich. So that's something, something I can do to do that. I need to put a sign in the window going, but what they did sometimes do is standing in the little parking bay, which is just in front of the shop. So obviously I want to, I don't want them to stand there. So, um, but yeah, yeah. So that's what I'm going to do. Sounds like you've given it some consideration, which is good to hear. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would advise strongly about considering barriers and what is already a narrow pavement of which prevents access for residents along there. But I think, yeah, I think capital Rathbill has kind of made, made the point about, make sure that space is accessible for residents and those with, you know, other access needs as such. Um, just on that note, then I think we'll probably throw over to the representations, unless there's any other questions or comments from councillors. I just wanted clarification either from yourself or from O'Lovely, because I think, page 50 on the pack, shows a picture of the tables and chairs outside the premises. So it's suggested that this is almost, that this has been already, you already been using, uh, tables and chairs without a license. So I suppose I would just want a clarification of that. Can I go? Is that for me? Yeah. Yeah. So I applied for the tables and chairs, because I've had the venue since 10 November, I actually applied for the license for the tables and chairs. Um, I didn't hear anything from, uh, that, that licensing team. So I've chased them up. Uh, um, what's your name? One of them. But I mean, so you've been, have you been operating with the tables and chairs without a license is the question? No. I've got an email from Yannick because they couldn't find my, the portal. There's something wrong with the Lambert portal. It's left my bank account for the license. So our question is they can't find it. There's something wrong with the portal. Yannick said, Chris, you'll find the tables and chairs out. Okay. Ola, do you have confirmation of that? I've sent that to Ola. Yeah. So I'm asking Ola. Sorry. Oh, sorry. Yeah. I think you confirmed you've applied from Yannick, but we haven't had a confirmation from Yannick to say you've authorized to do that, but we can always follow that up. Okay. So that press, the tables and chairs shouldn't be outside. I mean, again, I've only just got this pitch to go off, of course. So I just think it's just important for clarification just before we move on. I can forward, I can forward the email. It says Yannick says you can put your tables and chairs out. We've only got one table anyway, but it's, he says you can, Chris, I mean, but that's not, that's not in front of us at the hearing right now, though. Um, Mr. Mr. Sasson, I think it's just more of the point is the tables and chairs are outside, but we're going from what Ola said here is we haven't had that kind of confirmation just yet, I believe. Is that right, Ola? Ola? Just repeat what you said there. No, I haven't had the confirmation, but I think I believe if Chris had the confirmation from Yannick now to say it's been approved, then I think. Don't go. And I know there's been a bit of a problem with tables and chairs across Lambeth apparently as well, so, but that's not, fortunately that's not our department tonight, right? Unless there's any other questions from either colleagues. I think we'll move on to the representations. which I believe is the only person. There's no one from the licensing authority, if that's correct. So we have Mr. Biskinis, who's the chair of the Clapham safe and able panel, and his objection can be found on page 32 and 38 of the pack. And Mr. Biskinis, you have to speak with only within the representation. That's fine. I, I really objected because of the terminal hours, but that was pulled back. And I just wanted to come to the hearing to hear, you know, the other views, the other concerns, and I think they've been really largely addressed. I think I always apply the worst case scenario. You know, if somebody is eating and drinking outside, what hour do they leave? And I think on balance this, even in the worst case scenario, this would probably be still be reasonable. So I'm very happy to withdraw my objection. I think this looks like the demographic, the nature of the premises and within the terminal hours of 10 PM, I think the risks of disruption are minimal. So I'm happy to withdraw and obviously wish the applicants all the best for the business. So it's all from me. Thank you, Mr. Biskinis. On that basis, so no questions for Nick at this stage. Committee, was there anybody else you'd like to ask any further questions of, either to licensing officers or to the applicant? And if not, Mr. Stassen, we will ask you just to, if you want to say any final words before we go and deliberate. No, Mr. Stassen? Yeah, I'd just like to add, I live locally across the, across the road. So I feel like I'm a responsible landlord or shop owner and I want to contribute to the area. Like I said, I'll contribute quite a lot of hopefully positive things to the area. So, and I'm a, yeah, that's all I want to add. Brilliant. Thank you very much for your time. So if you can all just hold tight, I don't know how, how long we have to deliberate. So I wouldn't say don't go off the call, maybe pop a kettle on and we'll be back momentarily. Thank you everyone. Do I leave the call Ola? No, you stay because we don't know when they're likely to come back. Please stay. I'm going to deliberate and come back. Sorry. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I'll wait. Thank you. All right, we're here, Jacqueline. Okay. Thank you. Check everybody's here. Thanks everybody for waiting tight. I'm just having Jacqueline confirm that we're all here. I'm waiting to see if Councillor O'Hara is here. There's always one. I'm having a cup of coffee on camera. You might have gone in the wrong room. Bear with us, please everybody. But if the upcoming applicant and officers can stand by. Oh, here she is. Yeah, she's here now. Thanks. You can proceed when you're ready. Thank you. Mr. Sasson, are you with us? I am. Yep. Hi, how are you? Sorry. Sorry to keep you waiting. Okay. So the licensing subcommittee have considered the application premises license with the application that has been amended to the terminal hours of business of 2200 hours, Monday to Friday. We are satisfied with the amended hours of operation and the conditions on which the license has been attached. As a result, the licensing subcommittee have been determined that it is appropriate and proportionate to grab the license as sought. My only kind of final comment would be whilst not a condition and it's not nailed into your license, that as I kind of mentioned earlier that you'll be an active member of the Clapham community and nighttime economy by participating in the Friday night hub meetings and just working with Clapham on making it the vibrant place that it is. Definitely. Thanks very much. Thank you very much. Have a lovely evening. Thanks, guys. Cheers. Bye. Okay. That brings us up to the next item on the agenda, which I believe should be for 4B, which is Exquisite Restaurant and Bar, located at 7A Station Rise, SE27, 9BW. I just wanted to check. I know I'm going to be coming across to Nicole to introduce this in a moment. Or is it going to be Marcia to introduce yourself first, Nicole? Marcia first, so my apologies. Marcia, do you want to go ahead and introduce 4B, and then I'll come over to Nicole. Thank you, Chair. This is a review application for Exquisite Restaurant and Bar. The application was submitted on the 31st of January. The authority is seeking a reduction of the operating hours to bring these in line with the licensing policy, which are Sunday to Thursday 11 o'clock close, 11pm close, and Friday and Saturday midnight close. The application is also seeking for a condition to be added to the licence, that the supply of alcohol on the premises shall only be to persons seated taking a table meal there and for consumption by such persons as auxiliary to their meal. Since the publication of the report, supporting documentation from Mr Donovan Murray has been received, responses have been sent to Mr Murray. These have been published and shared with all interested parties and members. In attendance, we have Mr Donovan Murray. Also in attendance, we have Councillor Emma Nye acting on behalf of Councillor Olga Fitzroy. We have Nicole Teru, sorry, acting on as the responsible authority for the licensing. We have Latifat Akimu, Public Protection Operations Manager. We have Charlotte Ashworth, Station Bid Manager. We received six representations in support of the review application. The application form is located on pages 59 to 64 of the report. Representations are on pages 65 to 76. A copy of the current premises licence is on pages 77 to 86. A list of noise complaints is on page 87. That concludes my introductions. Are there any questions at this time? Thanks, Marcia. Just to confirm for me in terms of, because this is a review, so this is a bit different to a variation or a new application, you just confirm that we will first hear from Nicole on behalf of the regulatory service to introduce why it's a review. And I think I would then take the public protection as well. And then we'll throw it over to the applicant and then we'll hear the other representations. Does that order sound in due process? Correct. Thank you very much. Were there any other comments, questions from the committee at this stage? If the applicant, Mr Donovan, could I ask you just to have your camera on, just while the hearing's in place, please? Sorry, Mr Murray, Mr Donovan, thanks so much. Thank you. Nicole, I'll come over to you to kick us off, please. Thank you, Chair. So I'll be brief because I think that the papers are very comprehensive on this matter. So the licensing authority has bought this premises to review. There's no dispute about the permitted hours on the premises license. But what the issues are here are that the way that the premises are currently being operated are having an adverse effect on the licensing objective of the prevention of public nuisance. The premises are effectively operating as a nightclub and that is having an effect on local residents. The licensing authority or licensing and our head of service have engaged with Mr Murray as the DPS for the premises and as one of the directors on the premises license, Exquisite Bar and Restaurant limited and unfortunately the issues have persisted. There have been a number of issues raised regarding the process which have been addressed in response to Mr Murray's response to our review and a number of other issues have also been raised and those have been addressed as well in the supplementary papers. So I think that's where we are. So to sum up, despite interaction with the premises and despite the premises effectively operating within their permitted hours, they are having an adverse effect around public nuisance. Thank you. Were there any other questions for the committee at this stage? No? Councillor Rathnell. Yeah, so I guess there's a bit of confusion here because, and I'm struggling to find it now, but I think I read as one of the current conditions was sort of, they were allowed to have, I can't find it now, area for dancing, which would obviously, you know, it kind of creates some confusion about what was permitted by the licensee. So I was just wondering if you could cover what is considered acceptable in terms of that, you know, without it being a nightclub. So what I didn't say as well is that there are a number of conditions being breached because when the premises are supposed to be used for events, et cetera, or private parties, there are conditions on the license in terms of having a number of SIA clicker in place, et cetera. So it's about the, so I don't think that it's in dispute what's permitted within, on the license and within the premises, but I think the issue that we've got is the effect of the premises on the local area in terms of public nuisance. Does that, that does not, does that not answer the question though? I guess I'm just a bit confused because provision of facilities for dancing until, you know, midnight, two, three, two, two o'clock on Thursday, three on Friday and Saturday two on Sunday. But part of your criticism seemed to be that, that they were operating as a nightclub, but if they're allowed to provide provision of facilities for dancing, you know, what is the, you know, it sounds like you're allowing that. So I think, I think the issue is that, is that the spirit of the premises is supposed to be that it's a bar and restaurant and provision for some form of dancing as well, but by operating it primarily as a nightclub, one, there are, it's leading to complaints around noise nuisance and the impact on premises and also the dispersal and also the non-adherence to the license conditions. I guess what I'm saying is that, yeah, well, it needs to be clear that, and I'm not sure if it is clear at the moment, that any conditions is like saying you can provide space for dancing as long as you're doing food. But if I can interject, I don't think a nightclub necessarily equates to just for dancing, and I'm not sure if that is the only kind of, that's not necessarily the full issue here, I would take, but so I suppose, just to further, I mean, maybe some clarification, please, Nicole, on what makes something a nightclub, I suppose, for just dancing. Sure, I suppose, I suppose the concerns that we've got are that a well-run bar restaurant with dancing included, with minimal impact on, or no, very, very little impact on the local area, is very different from premises primarily operating on a Sunday night as a nightclub. That's what it's kind of marketing itself as, there's associated impact in terms of noise, in terms of dispersal, and we've also got concerns about the way it's being run. Okay, Scarlett, sorry, Councillor O'Hara, I saw you had your hand up, but it's faded, is it? I was going to ask that question that you asked, Chair, just for a clarification of the evidence for believing it was behaving as a nightclub, but I think Nicole has explained that clearly enough. Also, are there flyers that have been seen that are indicating that this is a nightclub? Am I right? So, I think that there's a response that we gave to Mr Murray, so there was a clarification around that, because on the response to the response, if you like, or the second response by the licensing authority to Mr Murray's response, because we highlighted that there was some kind of promotion of the premises offices as a nightclub, and also when officers visited the premises, they were basically asked for tickets on the way in. They were asked if they had a ticket when they visited the premises. Also at that point, sorry to interrupt you, I didn't mean to, as though it was a nightclub then, rather than a restaurant or bar where you would not be required to have a ticket. Yes, so within the review application, officers visited the premises on a date in July last year, and were asked for tickets when they arrived at the door, and the DPS wasn't present, and there were no SIA present, and there was no clicker on request, and then the officers were shown a clicker as they made to leave. Okay, I think at this stage, and if there's any further questions, I'll bring in Latifat from Public Protection, and then I've got a procedural question from Marcia. So Latifat, please, over to you. Hi, good evening Chair. My name's Latifat, I'm the Public Protection Operations Manager. And basically we looked at our complaints for this vicinity for the last 12 months, February 24 to February 25. In total, we received 15 complaints. In summary, and the observation from two officers officers visiting the space, I'll say, I think 12 out of 15 were received after midnight. The types of complaints were excessive noise from the patrons smoking and drinking outside the venue, or whilst queuing for the venue, and loud music emanating from the premises. Basically, I believe that the reduction in hours, and these all occurred, mainly occurred on a Monday morning when we got the complaints through, so the Sunday night, Monday morning. So I believe that the reduction of hours requested in a review application in line with the licensing policy for this type of premises, which is deemed to be a restaurant, will most likely reduce the number of complaints and promote the licensing objectives, particularly the prevention of public nuisance. Thank you, Latifat. Procedural point, please, Marcia or Jean-Marc. At this point, we've had some video evidence provided. Now, I'm not sure if we should retire to watch that in private, or if we need to air this for this hearing publicly, but I think I just want to have a clarification around who submitted the videos, and if and when they should be watched during this procedure. I would say that, given that they were part of the application pack, and they've come in from somebody who's joined in the objections to, sorry, not joined in as a representant in favour of the application for review. It seems to be in order for that material to be considered now. I just want to check something. Donovan, can you unmute yourself for a moment? I just want to ask you a question. Are you still on mute? Yes, sir, Mr Murray, if you could just unmute yourself for a moment, please. No, you're still on mute. There we go. Oh, there you go. Thank you. The question I have for you, Mr Murray, sorry, excuse me for using your first name. Have you had the chance to see or view those videos? No. No. You haven't? Okay. Chair Burness would suggest that we give Mr Murray the opportunity to review those first, because otherwise it's pretty much an ambush situation and he may not, he may want to speak to what obviously we've seen. I'm not quite sure if the best way to do that might be perhaps to send Mr Murray a link to those videos so they can view them in advance. And if members have seen those videos as part of the submission, I don't believe that you necessarily have to watch them in live session, but it would be prudent for Mr Murray to see them and no doubt you may want to ask him questions about what those videos show. Okay. So, um, I'm not clear then. So what are we gonna, I mean, so what would you like to watch them, Mr Murray? Um, I mean, if I'm not sure at the minute, um, I wasn't even aware of them, so I'm not sure whether it will be detrimental. I'm not sure what's on them. So at the minute, it's not clear. I I'll see clarity because I don't know if I'm going to be questioned pertaining to it or. Well, I'm not sure. I mean, it could come. I think it further demonstrates from the representations public dis public nuisance basically. Yeah. So it's yeah. The question I have though is regarding videos is we're my premises. I'm, um, surrounded by other pubs and premises and, and next to the train station. Well, that could not, that could also come up in the question. Depending on what the video says. Yeah. But I suppose I just, but I just want to, it's just an important point because there's a, there's a number of videos and I don't think the committee has seen all of them if I'm correct. Well, you have Scarlett, but you haven't seen them. I haven't seen any of them. Okay. So. Marcia, are you there? I am. So I, I mean, so I would suggest maybe we give it 10 minutes so that you can send the videos on to Mr. Murray and the committee can, and the committee can go watch these as well. Yeah. Mr. Murray, I sent the videos to you on the 6th of March. The 6th of March. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Along with the redacted representations. The 6th of March. Yeah. So, Jean-Marc, does that affect? I'll send them to you again. So if they've been sent, Jean-Marc, and the opportunity has been sent to watch them, does that change the outcome of the, of us watching them live? Not, not, not really. In substance, it's about fairness and if Mr. Murray's saying he's not seen. Okay. Well, I'm going to suggest then a quick 10 minute adjournment or whatever. While Mr. Murray can watch the, we, we, you, we leave the meeting, we come back in 10 minutes. Um, panel, if we just go to our deliberation room and I can present them there. Then Mr. Murray, if you go and take them out and then they're, they're not too long, I don't believe. So if we give each other about 10 minutes, so apologies to officers and the rest of the committee, but I just think it's important, as Jean-Marc says, in fairness, and I think they will dictate some of the questioning that follows. Okay. Thanks very much, everybody. We'll be backing around. Yeah, we'll say 10 minutes time. Thank you. Hello, this is Jacqueline Pinnacourt Democratic Services. I just wanted to find out if the applicant has returned yet from viewing the videos. Hi Jacqueline. Sorry, I'm currently, um, speaking with, well, on emails to the applicant, he's saying he hasn't been able to view the videos. I've re-sent them to him again. Um, so I'm still waiting to hear. Hello, this is Jacqueline from Democratic Services. I just want to confirm whether the applicant has managed to view the videos. Not at all. I haven't received them on an email. Do you want me to answer? Can I go ahead? Okay, sorry, um, haven't received the emails, did not receive the email on the 6th of March either. I had an email on the 6th of March, which I replied to, not, none contained in a video. Um, and I've just sent an email and I received the response saying, have you received them? But there's no attachment to our videos. I clicked on the link, the blue link at the bottom that says Lambert. I'm not sure if that's it, but nothing. I'm not sure if that's, that's it or, or what, how it's attached. I'm not sure. Okay, let's find out from the licensing officer. I'm sorry. Um, it does say that it was delivered here on my end. I don't know why you're not able to access it. Um, I'll try again. I can see your email that says, have you received them? And I replied to that one. Yeah, sorry, I sent it to the same email address and it didn't come through. You sent it just now again? Yeah, I've sent it twice. The, the 6th, the one from the 6th of March and where you asked for the actual email for the 6th of March. You've not seen it. It's not come through. That's, that's the email from you saying, have you received them? Yeah. Nothing else. I don't, maybe, could it possibly be size? It could be the size. Yeah. Are you able to access the laptop or anything? I am on, yeah, I'm looking on the laptop because that's what, I'm on the laptop speaking to you as well. No, I'm looking on both devices. And on the 6th of March it didn't, because I received an email on 6th of March which I replied to you as well. Yeah, I've received that, yeah. Yes, nothing at all, no record of it at all on my email. Okay, I'll go back in and let the committee know. Please, I'll try, I'll try and get the trick. Is it about another 10 minutes or so? Yes, please. Let me see if I can download it and send it over to you again. Mr Murray, I'm sending it over to you again now, yeah? Okay, no problem. I'm there looking. I'm here refreshing it so you can see I'm refreshing. I look on the computer as well. Just in case. If you hold on one moment. Oh, no problem. Mr Donovan, would it be alright if you could have, did you receive that last document? The last email? The one that says, did you receive it? Yes, I have. The one, no, the one that said, I received the one that says, have you received them? But there's no attachment at all. They didn't come through. No, it just says. Hi, hi, hi, hi, hi everyone. Sorry to keep up just while we, look, I think we, um, I'll just wait for Scarlett to come in and then I'll proceed. Sorry. I've dialed Owen Chair, hopefully she'll join soon. Do you want me to try and get her in? Yeah, I'm dialing Owen Chair. And ironic, I have to whip the whip. Thanks, Scarlett. Um, so the committee, uh, with the presence of, oh, did someone just drop out? I've got it, but I've got the committee, so that's fine. Um, we were able to view the videos, but I understand Mr Murray, you're having issues. So I think we've come up with a solution. I think I will play the videos because I'm able to do it from this laptop. If you agree with you here and then we won't, then we'll give you some time to make, you know, to kind of review what you saw. Um, does that sound fair? Yeah. So if you take yourself off mute, please, sorry. Apologies. Yes. Yeah, it's, they're only about seven, eight minutes long. There's like a series of 11 videos. Um, and I just think it's only fair. And then if we can give you a little bit of time to kind of process what you see, I just think it helps if they're going to be kind of used in the hearing. Does that sound about right, everybody? Jean-Marc, can you just clarify? Yes, I think in the circumstances and given the technical difficulties of Mr Murray's experiencing, it makes sense that we proceed in that way, yes. Thank you very much. So I'm going to share my screen. If I could just ask people just to me because I'm getting a bit of feedback there. Thank you. So I'm going to do the first one. I'm going to do the first one. So this is video one. So this is video one. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, number two. Three. Three. Okay. One. Two. Three. Three. Two. Thank you. Thank you. This is video number five, which I think the emphasis is on this van here. I won't add any comments or description as such now, but just kind of leave that. Okay. Video six. Sorry, Mr. Murray, I see that you dropped out a second there. Did you? We haven't missed. I'll just play video six again for you. Shall I? Okay. Thank you. Okay. Then video seven of 11. Thank you. Okay. Then video seven of 11. Okay. Then video seven of 11. Eight. Nine. Nine. Video 10. Finally, video 11. Okay. Thank you for bearing with everybody there. So I think if it's all right with you, Mr. Donovan, I'm sorry, Mr. Murray, we will continue with the questioning for public protection and the regulatory services if you just want to have a couple of minutes to think before we move on to yourself. Is that okay? Okay. No problem. Thank you. And so that's it. I don't know if you want to kind of come back or Nicole from me from obviously I kind of jumped in the end of your presentation before councillors were able to come back. Yeah. Yeah. So I think if it's all right with you, Mr. Donovan, I'm sorry, Mr. Murray, we will continue with the questioning for public protection and the regulator services if you just want to have a couple of minutes to think before we move on to yourself. Is that okay? Okay. No problem. Thank you. And so last advice, I don't know if you want to kind of come back or Nicole from me, from obviously I kind of jumped in at the end of your presentation before councillors were able to ask you any other questions. With that in mind, colleagues, were there any other questions to put forward to either Latifa or Nicole at this stage? No? It's got it. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. I'm wondering about the police. If the police have been made any submission, I can see they haven't made a submission to this review, but have they made any comments or have you had any interactions with them that shed some light on what you're bringing to us tonight? So I'm quite happy to speak. I wouldn't be able to speak on behalf of the police because they're a separate responsible authority. And I don't know what you think, Latifa. Yeah, no, we haven't had any discussions with the police. Please. I know representations. Nope. Of course. Nope. Otherwise they'd be in the back. Okay. I suppose the only other kind of questions I would have at this stage that for the video. So Marcy, I don't know if you'd want to come in at this point. Now, I've got, of course, clearly we, you know, 11 videos there, but the videos don't feature any day or times. So I'm just wondering, therefore, how, how we can, if the panel then can use these as form of accuracy for the case we're hearing. Yeah, I, I, I noted that there wasn't any times and dates. I did put it through to the representer who submitted the videos and made it clear and did ask if it was okay for me to submit those as is. And I was told that they could go ahead. That's yes. That's great. But I mean, they didn't feature a dated time on them. No, that's how we received them. Um, I did ask if they did have dates and times, um, on videos to be submitted. And they came back with it. They didn't. I mean, I think we can hazard a guess, but we can come onto that. I think under Mr Murray shortly, but I just think it was important just to state that. I think at this stage, out of fairness, Councillor O'Hara. Yeah. I was just going to speak to that. I, I can see that the railway pub opposite is closed and in darkness in the videos that show, um, Station Rise and they show the railway pub. So that would suggest that it's after the opening hours of the railway pub. So I. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. And maybe it would be good to have a clarification on those closing hours. I think we believe they might be midnight on the Sunday, but it might be worth just having a confirmation on that. I know each individual pub on the merit while we're having the hearing, but I think it helps us state the times with the videos that be presented. That's a good point. Are you able to? I'll have a look now. I'll have a look now. Thank you Marcia. Just while you do that then I think, I think if there's no further questions for either the regulatory services or public protection or licensing officers, I think we'll move on to Mr Murray. Um, I think you've got up to five minutes to address the committee and then no doubt we'll have some questions for you. So five minutes, take yourself off mute and over to yourself. Can you hear me now? We can. Yes. Okay. Good evening again, everyone. Okay. So, um, just for clarity, I'm, I ask pardon. I'm not really legally trained. So if my, if my terms are not really legally correct, I beg pardon. Um, with regards, I'm going to sum up as quickly as I can, just to give some clarification and my view of where we are now. Um, just for background quickly, I've been there in this premises since 2006, um, operating, um, um, as a restaurant and a bar stroke lounge, that's our operating module. We have a license which we, which we took over from a previous licensee, um, for provision of music and dancing facilities and for restaurant, um, and, and takeaway. All right. So that's the license that we hold. Um, in summary, I, the, the, the, the representation I've, I've, I've received from the council. Read the points. One prevention of public nuisance. Um, after midnight door supervisors, um, to be, to, to be, um, always on premises. This is always done. And, um, my concern is a lot of the things, even the videos were prior to the meeting I had with the head of regulatory services and the Mr. Trevor virtue and the licensing officer on the 16th of August. So a lot, a lot of references made to the 29th of, of, of July last year. On that particular day, when that video was circulated, I know there's no date and time, but it was actually the day when there was something held in the Brockwell park. And I, I met with the council officers and I explained, and we went through it. They went through my CCTV footage. So I'll address the points as one. So one, as it regards to me trading as a bar only, not register, the council has made representation that I'm not selling food at the moment. I took the head of council through my kitchen. So at the minute we're in a legal dispute with the landlord's network rail. The kitchen is inoperable. They changed the roof and as a such, the kitchen collapsed. So with the kitchen section, we're in a dispute at the moment. We only just received, we went to court with it. And on the 25th of March, we started a new lease and in delegation to have the kitchen restored. Our normal operation would be the first to have food and drink until night and then music and dance. Until on a Thursday, until one o'clock on a Friday and a Saturday until two. Now we have a license to go to 2.30 on a Sunday and we do not ever go to 2.30. OK, so that, that being said, the representation totally omits the fact that they had first in evidence and I showed them that we're not able to trade at the moment. Not that we have no intention to trade selling food, but at the moment due to restrictions, do beyond our control, we can't. And I explained that. Obviously, once this is resolved, the modus of operation is to go back to trading as such. Two, as it relates to promotional events and flyers. We never ever print flyers, never do outside events. And in the clarification response that I sent, I asked for it to be published, you should see. In my response, I stated as such, we only hold one event per year. That's a promoted ticketed event. And last year we had it at the Lambeth town hall. The reason I use an outside event is for the mere reason that I do not promote events from the restaurant. We do not host events. We do not allow outside promoters to come in at all. Not even our own event do we keep there. We hire a venue to keep a promoted event if we're having it. So that, I'm not sure if there's a misunderstanding on the part of the licensing authority. We do not host events. So neither ticketed nor promoted events. We don't have outside promoters. We only on a Sunday, we operate a sole Sunday on a Sunday. So normally it would be, we would have chicken and wings, jerk chicken. We'd have jerk chicken on a wing. On a Saturday, we'd have jerk chicken. We'd have wings and hard dough bread. But because the kitchen is operable, we've moved. And we've been doing this since 2013. Since we've been there since 2013. Originally we were there. There was not even a flat next to it. It was a car wash. And then the flats came. We sat with residents, tried to work through it. We've never had a problem. Now, my concern is that on the 29th, we had, when we had, I had discussions. I met on the 16th of August. And since then, I've got evidence and proof. We've printed signs. We've asked the SIA staff. We've been outside proactively asking members to leave. And done everything. But the representations being made are all before the meeting. And not after, in the most. Now, in the prevention of public news, I noticed that the council have said, I'm asking the authority to prevent that. I'm not. I'm asking all I can. On the meeting on the 16th, they said that the council would give us some assistance. So, in terms of patrons parking, as a business, it's very limited to how much you can say to someone to ask them to move off a public road or a public highway. So, I was promised that they would assist to see if they could have parking attendance, issue parking tickets. We started using a barrier to stop them coming up. And then we were told by the council. At the meeting, we said, okay, we'll try to use barriers. We started using the barriers. Two weeks in using the barriers, no one came up. And then we were told by a council officer that we were not allowed to put barriers on the public road coming up to the train station. So, we had to move the barriers. So, that's where we ask for help. What I'm basically saying to the council is, I think there's a misunderstanding and it's not a question of me. I'm not sure how most of these allegations are not accurate at all. I mean, we have a license to do music and dance and that's exactly what we're doing. I told them, and in the representation, if you look at my reply, I specifically stated that we charge a cover charge purely for crowd control. Right? And then I noticed that the officers said, we do not use a clicker system or SIA. But then it says that they were refused entry and asked for tickets by the security. So, I mean, if we don't have security, how would the security stop you coming in or ask you for tickets? I mean, even though we don't use tickets, you know, and that is kind of concerning. I would have hoped that after the meeting on the 16th of August, had they had these concerns. The next contact I had after the 16th of August was in March. Well, I think it's the 29th of January or February when I received the application. I had no contact prior to that. No one's saying the measures that you're putting in place are not working. Let's see how best to work or nothing. No contact, no email from any staff. So I was under the impression that all that I put in, I put a limiter in place. We bought a decibel reader, which I go to the flat next door, which is owned by Bernard. We stand with the decibel reader to ensure that the decibel reader doesn't go above 40. And we do that proactively every Sunday night. So when I got this notice, you can imagine to my surprise, this came as a surprise. And I wrote the response, basically saying, at the minute we trade because of the limitations, not beyond my control, asking me to close. So effectively our customer base is made up of the Caribbean UK communities, sort of a small net. So our customer base is mainly the hairdressers, the barbers and the takeaways. They'd close their businesses at nine o'clock, eight o'clock, ten o'clock. They'd go have a shower and then they'd come over to us where we would do. Normally we do wings and beer. We're restricted to do that now. So they'd come and have a drink and then, you know, we'd go until until two o'clock. We have a license till 2.30. OK, I was going to say, we'll give you 30 more seconds, please, Mr. Mario. I'll give you 10 minutes there. OK. Yeah. So in a nutshell, that's basically it, really. What I'd hope to do is not to have a reduction of hours. That was totally styled for me. I would not be able to trade or pay my staff or pay my loans because my customers basically come out at 10 o'clock. So asking me to close that is effectively telling me to close. And I have proven the evidence that I temporarily wasn't serving food. So it's not that we trade and we never operate as a nightclub. So that is a total misunderstanding. All right. So that's in a nutshell what I'm asking for is not to reduce the hours at all. And let's do mediation or work together. So let's say Mr. Murray, let's see what the network really saying. Read your repairs and starting to trade again. So let's say Mr. Murray for the next six months, we revisit this or next year, whatever. However long, let's see what the network will. Once it's repaired, let's see how this works and let's work together. Rather than trying to put me out of business and stuff because financially it would be. OK. Thank you, Mr. Murray. Loud and clear. And thank you for presenting committee. Any questions at this stage, Mr. Murray? All right, do you want to kick off? Thank you. Yeah, I was just a bit confused. So you're sort of saying that you're giving out tickets for crowd control. I don't understand why you need tickets to do that. No, we don't do tickets. We just charge a cover fee. And then when you're coming in, we use an entry fee. So basically, after 12 o'clock, so it's free. So how we normally operate, because we normally have, we'd have food from 7 o'clock. So it's free to come in if you're coming in down, because what we normally, when we operate in the kitchen, we have two sets of customers. So we'd have the customers coming in the evening from a train. They'd come and get their jerk chicken. We'd have the jerk pan out there. We'd get their jerk chicken, get the rice and peas, and they'd go. And then we'd have the customers that, like the barbershops and so on, they would close at 10, and they would come. So twofold, we normally open in the evening, have two sets of customers. At the minute, because of the limitations, we only have one set of customers. So what we do is, we charge at night, we have to use SIA staff. Once it comes to, well, we start using SIA staff at 10 o'clock. The license says 12, but we start using SIA staff at 10 o'clock. They're £20 an hour. So we charge an entry fee to come in to basically cover the cost of it. We don't sell tickets. We don't pre-promote. Does that answer your question, Islet? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Anything else? Or do you want to come back? No, that's all right for now. Scarlett. Yeah. Thank you, Chair. A few different questions. I'm thinking about the vehicles and the parking. So it looks like there can be quite a few vehicles blocking access to that road. So are you aware of the parking regulations on that road? Are you, are your staff aware, the security staff, it looks like there's a security person in the video, but it isn't clear whether that person is trying to move those cars away. They look parked. So I'm also aware that that's then the station access, which could then be needed by emergency vehicles. So it looks like customers are blocking that roadway and I'm wondering what steps you're taking to make sure that isn't the case. They aren't blocking the roadway that you understand the parking regulations and that you have something in place to move, move any cars that are blocking it. OK, so that on the 16th of August, that was what I met with Mr. Trevor Virch. I asked for permission to be able to block off the road with just barriers so that if emergency services came in, all the security staff would have to do is move the barriers and let them in. It worked for two weeks and then I was told by the council that we're not allowed to do it. So I'd need clarification and hope for help with working with the council to say whether or not we can block the road off. Since then, what we did is, as of December, what we've done, because if we approach, as you can see in the video, the security staff are going to them, asking them, turn the music off, please leave, which we do proactively. But again, they keep telling us it's a public highway. And most of the times what you find is the people outside don't are people who have been refused entry. That's the reason they allow it outside. Most of the people are people if they're coming because when they're coming from Rockwell Park or coming from free events, they're not really good patrons. And that's the main reason we charge. If it was free, everyone would come in. So we can't. They would just all whenever an event finishes at the park, they all seem to look for somewhere to go. So we would not be able to stop them. So what we've done is if you park on the security, observe your parking, we don't allow you entry if you're coming into the premises. OK. Can I ask also then about the security staff you've got? OK. So you say you have SIA trained staff later in the evening. And how many of those people do you have? And how many hours are they working for? OK. So we have a minimum of two. Sometimes we have two males or females. We always have a female for pure reasons, for searching the female. And they're always that they're always searched under the camera. So we have a camera on the entrance and they're always searched under the camera. Everyone has to be searched under the camera on entry. So at the minimum we have after the licenses after 12, but as we start them at 10 o'clock each night. OK, thank you. I have another question if I, but I don't want to hog the. No, absolutely. You're not. But I just on that note of security, I just want to ask what's the capacity of the venue? It's 180. 180? Yeah. And two staff for, two security staff for 180 people. Well, the minimum we have is two. Minimum two. Great. Thank you. Back to you, Scarlett. OK, thank you. Um, uh, what was I going to ask? It was, oh, forgotten what I was going to ask now. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It's come to me. Sorry. Um, yeah. So, so the license at the moment is to operate as a restaurant, restaurant and bar. But you're not able to operate as a restaurant at the moment because you explained about the problem with the kitchen that the roof has collapsed and that's out of action. So are you offering any food at all? You said something about chicken, but I wasn't quite sure what you were saying there. Maybe you could just clarify that for me. Are you offering any food at the moment? And what are you offering inside? OK, so our trading or trading at the moment, we, we cannot cook in the kitchen. So what we offer at the moment is drink facilities. We do not use bottles at all. So, so again, the observation of outside bottles could not be coming from us. We serve, we pour all drinks into plastic cups. So if someone standing outside of the bottle, it cannot possibly come from us. We don't serve bottles at all. So that eliminates us going out. We serve all drinks in plastic bottles. And also just to know the observation of people standing outside. We were asked to have people smoke outside because it's illegal to smoke inside. So by the train station where the people are standing, we ask them to stand outside and smoke before they return in because they're not allowed to smoke inside. I'm not sure if I answered. So it's just drinks inside and not served in bottles. Yes. So at the minute it's drinks not served in bottles temporarily until which we're hoping to in the next month or so to start cooking again. And what's your plan for restoring the cooking facilities? Okay. So once the kitchen is up, once the kitchen is up and running, we plan to open on a Wednesday. We plan to close on a Monday and a Tuesday. So we've sort of had a plan in action, which we are putting forward where you're sort of celebrating the birthday. You can come down, you can get a package of jerk chicken, rice and peas. You can, you can eat, you can have after 12 o'clock, the music goes on. You can have it. You can dance music and dance. You can have a drink on the premises. We do not wish to serve drinks or alcohol outside the premises. We've put a limiter in place to ensure that the neighbours, the music or decibels do not go above or outside to disturb the neighbours. And as I said, purely before this, we've been there since 2006. So we've never had a problem with neighbours. Before those flats were built, some of those flats were built on station rise. Yeah. I guess what I'm slightly concerned about is, is this, and I'm willing to take some guidance from others, but it feels like there's a lack of responsibility for the park. You know, it doesn't feel like your staff are taking responsibility for the issues with the parking, for the bottles outside. Maybe there's also this food van. So I want to feel that you are taking responsibility for those issues, even if they are not of your making. They are, I would suggest as a result or connected to the business. So, you know, is there, is there is, I feel I'd like to know that there was a sense of responsibility for dealing with those issues. Yes. And that's where we said, for example, putting the barriers in place, asking the security now to usher people, persons away. And if you park causing an inconvenience, you will not enter our premises. So those measures are what we've put in place. But they're not in place because the barriers aren't in place. And I think the blocking of a public road is another kind of story altogether. But if I could just add to Councillor O'Hara's point, I mean, we could quite evidently see in the videos that people are just free to roam from that video. I didn't see any evidence of a controlled smoking area. It was more about people could just kind of wonder where is at the SIA DPS. Now, granted, we didn't know the time of the video, but didn't we see that? But they didn't. Regardless, it didn't have any control over the crowd. And as a responsible licensee, when those people are passing through your premises, it's still part of you, under you as a licensee and your premises to be able to control that. If I may note for the record, those persons on that night, on the 29th, were coming from Brockwell Park. They were not patrons and we were still ushering them away. And I take it as soon as they're coming, I do take responsibility. And as I said, this video is before we met on the 16th of August. So it's worth noting that all the measures and the extra measures we've taken have been taken since this video. I mean, I'd like some further clarity on the business model, if I may, because I hear that it's absolutely not nightclub. Emphasis on the restaurant and such. So I'd just, if I was to come in on a, yeah, yeah, I think just a bit more of a, what is the bit? And you've been there a while, you know, and I just, you say, so just a little bit more of the business model. All right. So on a normal day or since the roof has been damaged, because that's kind of the difference at the moment. And what got you your license and how you would, and how you would operate if everything was tickety-boo. Okay. So how I'd operate is, you come in, it's sort of a restaurant and a lounge. So we have music and dance and we'd have music playing. So you'd have, you come in, let's say from five o'clock in the evening, from five o'clock in the evening, you come in, you can buy direct chicken, you can buy rice and peas. You can eat, you can get your meal. We don't start music and dance. So I'm speaking, let's speak on a Friday. So on a Friday, we'd have fish fry. We had seafood Friday on a Friday because we had specific days. So on a Friday, we did seafood Friday. So we would have up until 12 o'clock, we would have, you could come in, you could buy the steamed fish, roast fish. We'd have specific seafood, all the seafood. And then we, and then we would have, we'd have SIA staff coming at 12 o'clock and then we'd have music and dancing until two o'clock. And at two o'clock, two o'clock we finished. The kitchen closes at, the kitchen closes at one and then they drink up and go out. Okay. But would you be averse to then to having a condition attached to here about a controlled smoking area with barriers? I wouldn't, but it would have to be in conjunction with the, with putting in the parameters of where, if we, I wouldn't at all. If we will say, let's say we have to put barriers and we have to put a designated smoking area, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Even if I need to employ additional staff to manage. And I would, I mean, thank you for clarifying on the business model about the emphasis on the bar. And you absolutely flat out refuse, you know, this accusation of a nightclub. A hundred percent. I mean, I rented the Lambert town hall for mine. It's just a quick look on the Instagram of the exquisite page, post by Andrew Fresh First states. Get on. This is on the 27th of December, 2024. Get ready for another epic celebration for London's premier Sunday night rave. It goes on to say, and then there's pictures obviously of everything in action. And then on the 23rd of December, 2024, three o'clock finish, explanation mark, explanation mark. Yes. And that was held at six. That's the one we promote every year. It's not held at our premises. We hire revenue to do with that. But we had it. A rave would imply nightclub, does it not? Yes, but what I'm trying to clarify is we do, our premises is closed on that day. That was not held at our premises. It's held. So we hired, we had that at the Lambert's town hall. So when we have a rave, we don't do that or permit. We hire another venue to do it. So on that day we close. I mean, the 23rd of December, it wouldn't have been at Lambert's town hall. No, it was at Silk's nightclub. If you have a look, have a look at the poster. It will tell you the address. It should say six. Yeah. Yeah. We never have a or event. We hire another venue for the same reason. Thank you for clarifying. Yeah. Sorry. Charlotte, we won't, we can't take any questions in the moment. We'll be coming to you at some point. And I can, I can take that a little bit later on when we get to your representation. But I just thought it was important just to say that. I think unless there are any other, I mean, you mentioned about engagement with residents. What engagement has happened with residents as a resident? Yes, go ahead. So to my knowledge, all the close residents, I've engaged them. I've asked them. I've expressed this state without knowing any names or who to contact that. I've been contacted by the council. Are they having any complaints? How can I address it? And like. But I mean, but you directly go into residence. You've been proactive yourself. I directly do it. I mean, I've got relationships with Carlos and the pub and the people. Because obviously I've been there for a number of years for the cab station. So everyone knows me. So I've particularly asked them. And then there's, there's a cab station guy, Wallace. I said, Wallace, you are older than me. You know most people. If anyone has a problem, because that's the person I am. That's why I couldn't have been there that long. If you know, if we weren't willing to engage, there's no way a nightlife business could have survived that long. Okay. So just to your point and your question in the chat, Charlotte, we don't usually take questions for representations in the chat. But I think if you were, if you've been on the call throughout, we identified that from the videos, we couldn't specify the date and times. I take your point about Brockwell Park events ongoing, but I don't think we can regard your kind of comment because we don't know when the videos were taken basically. But yeah, I think Brockwell Park events can be ongoing, but I take the point that, you know, I can't take the point about when the date was as to your comment in the chat. Right. And then think colleagues, is there anything else you'd like to ask at this stage? I'm wondering about, so it looks in the video that there's a truck, which I believe is a food truck. Do you, can you say anything about that? Do you know about that food truck? Is it a regular visitor? You're on mute. You're on mute. You're on mute. You're on mute. You hear me now? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So the food truck is nothing, nothing at all to do with us. Um, he's there even days when we're not open. He goes there and cause the pubs, he serves when the pubs and the cab station, the taxi stands come out. He, he, he sort of goes there. He drives around and, and, and sells everyone. Um, I've approached him and asked him on our days. I've approached him and asked him, not, not even telling, just kindly telling him the council do not wish to have him, have him there. And, um, obviously he's affecting our business cause, cause naturally in, in all honesty, if he's there afterwards, people will want to go and people will want to buy. And then, I mean, he's been a competitor. He came there before and he stopped. I mean, two years ago or a year ago, he came there and we had an altercation. He never came back. And then he started to come again cause he comes on days when we're closed. And obviously because, um, pay other patrons support him and residents support him. Then he, he continues to come. Okay. Thank you. All right. Um, yeah, I guess there's just sort of things, which there's lots of things, which I guess is sort of like, you know, you're saying one thing and the licensing authority is saying another. Like you, you're saying that, um, a clicker system was used. They're saying a clicker system wasn't used. Um, I think they, they also say, um, there wasn't a designated, uh, premises supervisor on sites. Um, I think that's, I don't know if that's something you contested as well. So it's just, um, I guess. Yeah. Um, how do you account for the fact that they, I guess just to focus on one thing, how do you account for the fact that they said that there wasn't that system? Okay. Okay. So. Sorry, go ahead. Should I go ahead? No, how do you, how do you account for that? The fact they said that was, that didn't exist. Okay. If you look on their comment that they gave and that concerns me as well, they said there was no clicker system, but then they say where they were showing a clicker with 103. If you look at their response, you can see in there. They say that they were showing a clicker. So. So if there's no clicker system, how could they show your clicker? Cause we always use a clicker system. The SIA staff. So as I said, and I, when I had the meeting, we went through that with the Mr. Berkshire cause that, that if you, the comment that they made was on the 27th of July and the meeting was on the 18th, the 16th of August. And that's one of the things we discussed on the 16th of August and exactly that. Um, and he said he would try to clear the confusion cause they said there was no clicker system, but then they said they were showing a clicker system showing 103. If you look at their response, you can see in there. They say that they were showing a clicker. So I'm not sure. I'm not sure cause we always use a clicker. I'm just going to interject. I don't think we can take this into a, he said, he said between council and the licensing authorities. Sorry, Alice. I'll just challenge that back. Nicole, if your point was going to be around there, can I ask if you pause it, we'll come back to you a little bit later on, unless it's a procedural. Thank you. Councillor O'Hara. Yeah. So I'm wondering if you would be open to more than a question. Would you be open to more security, better train security? Because it seems to me that they're not fully in control. Looking at the video, the parking is, is a mess. There's a few instances of that. I know you said one of them might have been an exceptional set of circumstances, but there are a few images where there's a lot of cars parked along the road. The windows down, music playing. It seems like stronger security, better train security, maybe is a better way of putting it. Might might do a better job of keeping those cars moving, not letting them park there and also dispersing the crowds better. I just wonder how you feel about that and whether you agree. I would, I would, I would agree. I would agree and maybe I mean changing the firm or maybe what I find is that because I've had meetings read that as well, then becoming complacent after a while and becoming used to customers. So, you know, consider the option maybe of, of, of, of rotating actual security rather than rotating, having different, different security staff come in. So I would welcome that. I would welcome that suggestion. Thank you. Colleagues. Okay. Ilo investors. Yeah, just one very quick question. You mentioned that you're trying to get the kitchen fixed working with Network Rail. Do you have a sort of sort of guideline kind of date as to when you think that's likely to be fixed? Well, we, we, we signed a contract on the 25th of March. We signed a new 15 year lease on the fifth, on the 25th of March, because that was up in there. And they've said that they have a contractor out to us. So we're waiting on a, on a, on a, on a date, um, imminent now for a date for them to have their contractors up. As you can imagine, the hierarchy with Network Rail is quite difficult. So they're, they, they use subcontractors. So we're waiting on them to come out because even our ecosystem was damaged. So we're waiting on them to give us a date. The contractor is coming out to, to do, um, a costing. Okay. So probably a little bit down the road, because I guess you've got to get a costing. About a month, I would say. About a month. And then you've, the work's got to be done. So it might, it might take a few months, I guess. Might take a month or so. Months or so, you think? I would think for the, the contractors to come out and give us a costing and then the work will be done. Yeah. For, for, until the, well, I mean, when do you think you'll have a, a functioning kitchen again? Like a couple of months then? A couple of months I'd say. Yeah. Okay. Pending. Yeah. As you say, network rate and such. Okay. All right. Thank you. Um, Mr. Murray. I just think at this stage, it's probably time to bring in the representations, if I may. And so you can pop yourself back on mute and we'll come back to you for a summary in a short while. Um. Councillor Nye, thank you for bearing with us. Um, you're obviously speaking here on behalf of Councillor Olga Fitzroy, who is award councillor. uh, St Martins of which the premises is in. Her representation is filed on page 66 of which you will be speaking to that for us and have up to three minutes. Brilliant. Thank you. Yes. So I'm councillor and I councillor for Knights Hill ward. Um, Olga Fitzroy sadly couldn't be here tonight. Um, but I assume members of committee read her statement already. So what I'd like to do is focus on three licensing objectives that are currently being breached by exquisites and have to stay within whatever has been. Yes, I know. Yes. Yeah, I know that. Yeah. So firstly, um, on public safety, uh, multiple residents are frightened to approach the venue. They're frightened when entering or leaving their homes while the premises is operational due to the large and intoxicated crowd outside. And this is a breach of condition 21. The illegal parking by multiple clientele vehicles also poses a risk to public safety as it could prevent access from emergency vehicles. Secondly, on public nuisance, there's evidence of loud music disturbances from 11pm on Sunday nights three to 2.30am, which is beyond the cutoff for recorded music in the license. There are multiple breaches of condition 21 around the dispersal policy, including cars outside revving engines, people loitering, drinking and smoking jugs, urinating and shouting. And we've seen video evidence tonight of some of those accounts. Uh, the licensing authority itself has said that antisocial behavior is an issue in the area due to the venue. And, um, we've talked already tonight about the fact that it's supposed to be operating as a restaurant. And then holds a license as such. Um. We believe that food hasn't been served for around two years at the venue. And we've already talked about the unlicensed food truck turning up to serve patients outside the premises. And it's not reasonable for residents to expect nightclub levels of disturbance from this venue. And finally, for the prevention of crime and disorder condition eight is being breached, given that the premises. Doesn't operate as a restaurant, there should be at least two SIA security guards at any time. Um, and that is something that Councillor Fitzroy believes is not in place. Um, and I guess my question to the committee is how can you be confident the licensing objectives will be upheld when they haven't been to date in light of years of public nuisance. Um, they've been documented and blatant and consistent breaches of the conditions. Uh, we ask that the license be revoked. Um, and these comments have been verified both by residents and also for the, from the former, uh, councillor for this ward, Councillor Fred Cowell. If you're not going to revoke, we ask that you'd suspend it for a period of up to three months. So that the premises can make arrangements to operate as a restaurant as they should. They should buy their license or apply for a license as a nightclub. And either case would recommend shortening the terminal hours for 11 PM on a Sunday, removing the DPS as an absolute priority and recommending a new SIA registered security team to be on site from nine o'clock until closing time. Thank you. Thanks, Councillor Knight. Um, I'll hold questions until all reps have spoken. Okay. Um, I don't see, so is Charlotte still with us? Hi Charlotte, thank you for waiting patiently. Um, just for the committee sake, uh, Charlotte's representation is made on page 70 and you have up to three minutes now to address the committee. Um, so I have been working for the station station, the bid, uh, since 2018 and I've been the manager since 2019 and, um, in all that time we've, it's a, it's a constant thing that I hear. And I will say, I also, I also am a resident of Norwood Road myself. So, um, I'm not, I don't live far from station rise. And over the years it's a constant, uh, that we hear of the antisocial behaviour, the noise. Um, and it's on a Monday night, which for most residents and businesses who, you know, live business, some of the businesses live, live nearby. The Monday night is they've got to get up to work the next day. So it's not a weekend. Um, so that's the point. So, and then there's a, there's an issue that I hear from, from Lambeth and from the, um, the businesses that the next day on a Monday, the street is very dirty. There's a lot of litter. There's lots of drug paraphernalia. Um, and urination, people, defecation, uh, vomit. Um, and that's on, that's much more so on a, on a Monday morning rather than, uh, than on a Friday or a Saturday. That's what I hear from the street cleaners. So it's, this is what I hear. Um, the, if, if Mr. Murray was open at a time when the other businesses were open, um, and then the footfall that he's, of his clients would benefit the rest of the kind of ecosystem in the town centre in Tulls Hill. So, you know, people, people go to the pub and then afterwards they go and get a kebab or they, or they, um, on their way there, they go for a meal. Um, that doesn't happen with this business. Um, the people come, they use the business, they cause antisocial behaviour and they don't have, there's no benefit for the rest of the, um, community. Um, I've also heard things from, I'm very surprised that the GT Rail have, um, signed a new lease with Mr. Murray because, um, I've heard that they're very keen not to have him stay. I mean, we can't speak on that, I'm afraid Charlotte, please don't, uh, that's, if you could continue. Um, no, I, I, I've, I've said I would, it would be, if, if the place was to, to, to operate in the times when the other businesses are open and then, then that, that would help the whole, the whole community in Tulls Hill to, to benefit from the footfall that these, this business brings. Um, but it, but it doesn't, sadly. Okay. Thank you. Thanks very much. Uh, committee. Were there any other questions to, I, I, I want to say there was Linda Carson, but I can't see that she's on the call. So I think it's just ourselves. Brilliant. Okay. Were there any comments or questions for either Councillor and I or Charlotte Ashworth this stage? I see Scarlett reaching for the unmute. Yes. Thank you, Chair. Um, yeah, to, to, well, to both, both of Charlotte and Emma, I'm wondering how long, I think Emma, you said you've, there have been complaints over the last couple of years. Is, is that the case? How long have the complaints that you're aware of? So going back to when, uh, Councillor Cowell was the ward member. So at least two years, at least two years. I couldn't, I don't have the, all the details, you know, um, but going on for a number of years. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that may be more like three or four years actually when Councillor Cowell was. Yeah. I should remind committee though, that we don't have a representation from Councillor Cowell. So I'm afraid I don't think you can log that as evidence. Fair enough. All right. Thank you very much. Anyway. Thank you. Councillor Rathmill. Um, yeah, I guess I just kind of question for both of you. So, um, if say the, uh, is it, what kind of reduction in hours would you be comfortable with in terms of the operation on Sunday? So, um, oh, sorry, chair. No, no, no. I was just going to say, I think that's clearly outlined, isn't it? As for the. 11 o'clock. 11 o'clock. Yeah. On a Sunday. And then making sure that you have the SIA security in from 9 PM. Just to control that sort of dispersal. Can I check? Can I ask something to Donovan? Well, I think it's more of a clarification for Marcy to clarify, isn't it on that one? What they're proposing. I just wanted to, I wanted to ask him, um, at what point it would become untenable for him to run a business. Well, in terms of. If you don't mind Island, we'll come when we bring Mr Murray back in, we can ask those questions. At this stage, just we'll stick it to the reps. Is that all right for now? Thank you. Just otherwise then we end up. Jolting about. Um, if so, if there's no other questions to the, our representations at this stage. Because then it's only customary to bring Mr Murray back in to answer what he's heard with regards to the representations. Before we as committee then ask some final questions for any, for anyone that we've heard. So Mr Murray in the effort of fairness, if you would like to address either whatever Charlotte or Emma said, you have a couple of minutes. But you are on mute. Let me get him there first. Okay. Right. So just to clarify the points for them that one, they're requesting I use SIA. That wouldn't be a problem. I already use SIA. So that wouldn't be a problem. And read the complaints as I, as I stated, the first meeting was last year, August. I mean, if it's ongoing and if they go back four years, that was COVID. I wasn't even open. So, I mean, you know, I wouldn't go back that far in terms of complaint. I've been there since 2013 and obviously never had a problem. And when I was addressed last year, I took every effort since August. I mean, putting measures in place and I will continue to do so. I'm willing to work with the licensing authorities. Cutting the hours would absolutely cripple me. They might as well tell me to close my doors. I mean, because my customer base at nine o'clock, the customer base on a Sunday comes in after they close their businesses. And that's our main support. I mean, I should clarify for page 62 in the pack. There are two noise complaints made from the 11th of November and the 2nd of December. So I should clarify that they're actually, that they are in the papers that there has been noise complaints made further to August. I just thought that was important to state. Okay. Let me just see where I'm at. One of those complaints was in the morning when I was in the morning. Bear with me, Mr. Murray. Sorry, hang on. I'm trying to get myself together. Right. So representation. So from this stage committee, I think it was probably whether any other questions you kind of wanted to raise at this stage, either to the applicant or either to the regulatory service of public protection, given what we've just heard over the last hour or so. I mean, I wouldn't mind asking Nicole a question and then we'll give you the final rights on this, Mr. Murray as well as I kind of think, consider some of the things we've heard about fairness and engagement. How I suppose I'd like someone from licensing to answer is how they have found Mr. Murray's engagement with you in this process. If I may answer chair, so I think multiple people have engaged with Mr. Murray and have found Mr. Murray approachable and Mr. Murray has taken on suggestions, etc. And in terms of sound limiters and how the business is run. But despite those assurances, as you say, the noise nuisance has persisted. The way the premises is run has persisted. I wanted to also pick up in terms of the road closure and, you know, placing barriers, etc. There it's it's not I think I think I've tried to I've had to word it very carefully because I know, Mr. Murray, that you came back with quite a few points around, you know, fairness of the process. And I answered that in full in terms of the blue notices being put up and then answered all of the other points raised in full. But I and I think it has been picked up in this hearing around the responsibility of the premises and it is the responsibility of the premises to promote the licensing objectives. And, you know, so so I I do need to and I think that officers have tried to manage your expectations in terms of, you know, having parking officers down there, etc. And I and there is a direct relationship with the antisocial behaviour that that is visible at whatever time on on the video footage. But there is also if the if the club weren't open, for example, I don't think the food ban would be there. I don't think people would be coming up and I don't think people would be sitting in their cars. So, you know, I just I just find, you know, certainly anecdotally from colleagues. I haven't met you myself person to person previously, but certainly colleagues have found you very approachable, have found you very friendly. And and, you know, I think that the will is there to do it, but actually it doesn't actually translate into action. Thanks for clarifying, Nicole, and I think, yeah, I think the issue about the responsibility about being a responsible licensee is certainly being picked up on from committee members. Was Scott, I wasn't sure if you had a hand at one point to come in with a question. No, I don't think so. I think you've covered it. Thank you. I mean, with that in mind, then, Mr Murray, I suppose you do kind of get a right to have a I'm going to suggest that we go to wrap it up unless there's any other questions from committee. There might be something that comes from Mr Murray's closing statement. We might want to ask some final questions of that or the record to reservice. I don't know why I can't say that word. My apologies, Nicole. But Mr Murray, yeah, I suppose just a kind of a summary in response to what you've heard before we deliberate. Unmute. Can you hear me? Yeah, we can. Sorry. All right. So not just I think I've been over most of the points. It's just to clarify, I'm not taking away the responsibility from myself. So in the response, Nicole, just to clarify what I was asking, what I was asking for is communication between myself and the parties involved in terms of since I've taken the measures, I've not had any complaints since August until I got this. So, I mean, if you receive and I don't know that there's complaints or anything coming, then I can't actually action it. So that's what I meant in terms of is not for the response, the authority to be responsible, but for there to be some means of if you have a complaint, then for it to be able to. I mean, forward it to me in some light for me to address it. I mean, until the hearing, I'm not aware that we had a complaint since the 16th of August. I mean, 16th of August, we had it. I've done the signs, printed the signs, actively got the SIA, you know, had meetings with the SIA staff and asked them to be proactively doing it. And then we put measures in place a few weeks ago where if you park and you refuse to move and stop blocking, we won't allow you if you're coming into our premises. Because I mean, and so therefore, you know, you have to move. And those have worked. I mean, I am 100 percent sure that on two occasions or three occasions since this was issued, the licensing officers came. And I'm sure I don't see a mention of it or hear the mention, but I'm sure that from when they came, they checked the decibels and they were and they were they were they seemed OK. So I mean, they are working and I'm proactively and I'm not taking responsibility. And that's why I've done all that in order to take responsibility for it. What I was asking for, if there is something that I'm not aware of, then it's kind of hard for me to control this. I would want some sort of communication between both parties or all parties involved. And that's really what I was saying, not to take away from my responsibility of myself. I think it kind of raise the point that we will probably need to have clarification on Mr Murray, because if you're saying that you haven't heard anything in response to these complaints. However, I think as we've clearly probably heard and seen tonight, there is some issues with receiving notices yourself personally. You didn't see the videos, for example, however they were sent to you, you know, effectively from the from the license. So I suppose I'd like clarification of how would these noise complaints be submitted to Mr Murray? Or is it something that you guys would collect and then relay back? So the noise service is run separately from licensing, although we work very closely together. But we have had a sort of I think I think the build up to the meeting around I think there was a meeting scheduled for the for the July. And I think 29th of July was mentioned by Mr Murray. And I think that that didn't take place. But I think there'd been kind of ongoing communication prior to that, not just by licensing. But I think, you know, kind of Charlotte mentioned kind of interaction with the bid, etc. And I think that there had been kind of ongoing communication with Mr Murray. And then it culminated in a meeting on the 16th of August. And at that point where I believe it was with Mr Trevor Virtue, who's our head of service, who actually was very frank with Mr Murray and said, look, you know, there is a possibility. So there wasn't a threat of review, but I think the whole case was laid out in front of Mr Murray, where Trevor said, actually, you know, we we we apply the stepped approach. But, you know, at some point you're going to get to the top of the staircase and there will be a review. So I think there were several visits to the venue by licensing and or I think there were may have been visits by noise as well. But I think we just got to the stage where we where we did go to review because of the ongoing and persistent issues. I think that helps clarify it. Thank you, Nicole. Without further ado, I think if I mean, Mr Murray, I think unless I don't think there's anything, unless there's anything else, not just on what you've heard from there. But if there's anything else you'd like to say to the committee before we go and deliberate, I think now would be that time. I can't hear you, sir. Sorry, it's muted again. Sorry, just to clarify the point for the record that when I met with Mr Trevor Virtue, as per the email trail, the purpose of that email was that was to view CCTV footage on certain days that they were concerned about. Not not for anything else. And those were viewed. But that in itself is a, you know, when someone's coming to talk to you about something like that. But I hear you. I want you to have the right to reply on this. But I'm also just saying this is a chance to address the committee in full before we go to deliberate. Yeah. So just just just to say, really, I am 100 percent capable of running the premises. As I said, I've been there since 2006. I've been running it adequately in my eyes. I've never been shut down before. And if I was that bad, I would have had to be shut down. I mean, circumstances dictate sometimes when running a business, it can be quite difficult. And circumstances cause you to have to deviate or or trade. But I've never done anything outside my license or done anything illegal in terms of my operational things. It's the circumstances that cause this. So I would love for the committee just to, you know, give me a chance to operate. Give me a chance to operate in the hours that I am. If they attach the conditions of the counsellor recommend that I get better trained security, SIA staff. And as I say, open some form of communication where I can lay as with whoever wishes to complain, because I'm always open. I'm amicable and open to solve any problems because I have to run a business and pay my bills and my staff and all the staff I employ. So I'm willing to work with anything. But what got in the hours would cripple me. It might as well close me down. It would just close me down. Thanks, Mr Murray. And we appreciate coming to these hearings. You know, they can be overwhelming. They can be intense, but I hope you felt that you've had a fair hearing as such. And that, you know, so thank you very much for coming on and taking the time to be here. Everybody else, I'm going to say hold tight whilst we go deliberate. We don't know how long we can be here for, but don't go anywhere. See you soon. Thank you for bearing with everybody is. Just waiting for councillor Ohawa. Oh, again, I'm going to have a life on this. See if I can dial her in. Is Mr Murray on? Yes, he's there. Thank you for waiting patiently everyone. Yes, you can proceed now chair when you're ready. Thank you Jacqueline. Mr Murray, are you on? If so, just switch your camera on for there's no need to switch the audio on. Sorry, I didn't hear. Just pop your camera back on, please. Yeah, no need to switch the audio. Just checking that you're on the zoom. Okay. No worries. Okay, you're here, but we could. So obviously we've had a good discussion, but I think giving the hour that the licensing subcommittee decided to defer for five working days in accordance with the licensing here in regulations. So you will, we'll meet again in five days and then you'll be informed of a decision from there. Okay. Thanks everybody. I'm sorry to, it feels like you've waited up all night just to be told and it's gone into extra time. So thank you for waiting with us. But before we dial off for the meeting this evening, she asked me not to do this, but I'm going to embarrass her anyway. I just want to give a warm thanks to Jacqueline Pennycook, who has been working for Lambeth Council for 40 years. And after 40 years is going to be taking semi-retirement and she will be much missed on the licensing subcommittee. But she promises she's going to be coming back from time to time. But on behalf of all Lambeth residents, Jacqueline and Democratic Services, thank you so much for your public service to Lambeth and beyond. Oh, thank you very much, Chair. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you very much. I mean, I think we're all jealous, aren't we? You sent me retirement. Goodness. I think I'll see that at 80 at this rate. Thanks very much, everybody. Thanks for being with. Thanks team. Thanks committee. Thanks John Mark. Thanks Mr. Murray and the representations. We will see you next time. Thanks everybody. Good night.